Shabbos 4a–4b: Klutah K’mi Shehuncha, Akirah and Hanachah, and Makom Patur

Transcript

L'maat miyud פליגי, u'vaha פליגי. D'Rabbi Akiva savar kluta k'mi shehuncha, v'Rabbanan savri lo amrinan kluta k'mi shehuncha dami. Is the pshat that they argue l'maat miyud, and they argue for kluta. Aval l'maalah miyud, divrei hakol patur. L'maalah miyud, everybody holds patur. Everybody. V'kulah alma yafin zorek, moishit, and therefore... Why would I think not what? Because one... Adilma l'maalah miyud פליגי, u'vaha פליגי. Akiva savar yafin zorek moishit, Rabbanan savri yafin zorek moishit. Aval l'maat miyud divrei hakol chayav, mai taima? Because we say kluta k'mi shehuncha. Says, mai taima mi kluta k'mi shehuncha dami. Says the Gemara, ha lo kashya, because basibai hadiv shita lei. This is not a question because hadiv shita lei at the end. D'savar Rabbi Akiva kluta k'mi shehuncha dami. Then the Gemara has a kasha: hanacha may, be Akiva... okay, we'll see the Gemara's kasha. Al kol panim, so we have two staddim in the Gemara. Side number one is that l'maalah miyud we don't say, right, it's patur, and therefore we don't say kluta. And side number two is that we say l'maalah miyud according to Rabbi Akiva, but according to Rabbanan, lo amrinan, therefore there's no kluta. Fine. Comes along Rashi. Plus, trying to make a machlokes. Either they argue l'maalah miyud, or they argue l'matah miyud. That's the machlokes. According to the first צד, l'maalah miyud is never chayav, even according to. The second צד is that according to, l'maalah miyud is chayav, because yalfinan zoreik me'reshus, and the Rabbanan don't learn yalfinan zoreik me'reshus, therefore l'maalah miyud is patur. Now let's see why it would be that the havah amina, or the צד הראשון, is the kula alma. Yes. Comes along the Gemara and comes out with the yesod. The bottom line is, l'maalah miyud there's no kluta. That's what you see from this Gemara. Either there's no kluta and everybody holds you're patur, or there's no kluta and Reb Akiva will chayav for a reason of yalfinan zoreik me'reshus. But it's definitely not that there's no kluta l'maalah miyud, okay? Halacha l'maaseh, there's no kluta l'maalah miyud, okay? Why not? Says Rashi like this: U'v'soich yud, because d'i l'maalah miyud, k'sevivsan ha'avir d'yud lav avirah reshus harabim hu. It's not avirah reshus harabim, ela avir makom patur. So it comes out it's the avir of a makom patur, v'afilu kluta leka. There's not even kluta. There's no kluta. Now, if you take a look— Rashi's explained to us why there's no kluta l'maalah miyud. Rashi's yesod is because there's no kluta when it's in the avir of a makom patur. That's what he says. He doesn't explain why. Why not? Well, he does. Truth is, if you read Rashi properly, he does. I'm just reading the words. The words of Rashi are that since it's an avir makom patur, therefore afilu kluta leka. We don't even have kluta. If you take a look, Tosafos, which, im yirtzeh Hashem, we'll soon read inside the Tosafos, Tosafos learns that the problem is that since it's in a makom patur— Therefore it becomes pasul because it's klute into a makom patur. Just it's patur because it's a makom patur. The Ramban has a third loshon, and I want to show it to you, because the Ramban—we're going to learn this. When the Ramban brings the halacha of kluta l'maalah miyud, we don't say, says the Ramban such a loshon. And I want to see if you could see the difference between Rashi and the Ramban. Says the Ramban like this. Here. He says the Ramban like this. D'l'maalah me'asarah, keivan d'...

The shuta mikarka. The girsa is linear. It's supposed to say linear. I know, you have the linear, I have the linear, the linear. Both, what's the difference? It's the same thing, the v'li... He's trying to argue on... It doesn't make a difference. He doesn't agree on what he said before, or v'li nira differently than what he said before. It's two different girsaos. It doesn't make a difference. Now, but the point of it is, d'l'maalah me'asarah, keivan d'paleg lei reshusa mikarka, leka l'meimar k'mi shehuncha b'patri. Again, Rashi says because it's avir patur, therefore it's not even kluta. The Tosafos says it's kluta to makom patur, that's why you're patur. And the Ramban says, b'pesul lashon, that since hispaleg reshusa, therefore it's not k'mi shehuncha. Do you see the difference between Rashi and the Ramban? Okay. What? What's the difference? If Rashi, that it's mutar. Where do you have ...? What do you say? Huh? He says there's no klut here. The Ramban says there's klut if it's not kemishchuncha. And Tosafos says it's kemishchuncha, but it's a makom patur. And you think this is a big diyuk in simple pashut pshat. I'm not even telling you big stories. Rashi is telling us that there's no klut here. V'afilu—look at the words of Rashi—v'afilu kluta leka. There's no klut here. There's no such metzius of klut; it doesn't apply over here. The Ramban seems to be saying that even if I could say kluta, but I can't say kemishchuncha, because ... Tosafos is saying, I say kluta, and I say kemishchuncha, but it's a makom patur because it's chumra, so makom patur. Let's answer the first question. Haim amrinan kluta l'maalah mi'yud? And the answer is, yeah, okay, now it's everything. The Ramban would say like this: since it's a reshus ... even though it's kluta, but you can't say kemishchuncha; it's not there. It never touched the karka. How can you say on the karka it's a reshus? Yeah, so it's playing on different reshus. Like, the ... of the ... He doesn't say that. He says like, kluta, but since it's a reshus lifnei atzmai, you can't say kemisha huncha. Because Tosafos says it is kemisha huncha, right? The Ramban doesn't say that. The Ramban says it is kemisha huncha. Tosafos stresses it's kemisha huncha, but a huncha in a different reshus. The Ramban stresses it's not kemisha huncha because it's a different reshus. Sure? Again. Tosafos learns that there is kluta, and kluta is kemisha huncha, but where? Huncha here, and here is a makom patur. Mikivan sheze b'makom patur, lachen ani patur. Amrina kluta, amrina kemisha huncha, aval huncha pach. Now the Avnei Nezer does two of the three things. He explained to me Rashi and—I'm sorry—Tosafos and Rashi. Rashi seems to say there's no kluta at all. Those are the words of Rashi: leka kluta, afilu kluta. Look at the words of Rashi, and it's not even kluta. If you're not patur, not patur if it works, it's not even—the metzius of kluta is not even here. Tosafos is saying it's here, and it's even kemisha huncha. But since it's—

Kemishahumcha, we're in a bakkup tour, therefore I'm patur. The Ramban is saying it's kluta, but the Kemishahumcha, you don't have. On the ground. Comes along the Avnei Nezer and explains like this: If you learn that you don't need hanacha, so then therefore we can say in a makom patur, kluta. Mashenkin if you need that it should be hanacha al gabei karka, therefore you can't say kluta in a makom patur. Sound familiar? We learned this already, right? This is Tosafos and this is the Avnei Nezer I spoke to you about. The only thing is, he wasn't learning the Rashi, meaning he was talking in general. It's true, in general the two צדדים are either it's באוויר or it's בקרקע. And if it's באוויר, then you could say it from a makom patur, and if it's not באוויר, then you can't say kluta in a makom patur. Rashi says more. Rashi says like a kluta even. Rashi didn't say like hanacha, like a kluta. And I believe it's a three-way machlokes, and let me explain to you what I think the machlokes is. The Avnei Nezer says in general, Tosafos holds there's kluta in a makom patur because he learned kluta doesn't mean to the ground. He learns kluta means, in general, kluta, באוויר, whatever it is, like we spoke last week, like we spoke last week, right? The Ketzos Yaakov already wants to say it's not a raya from Tosafos because you can learn it's the ground, but it's still the Ketzos Yaakov, right? That's this Tosafos, okay. If you learn the Rashi properly, you see the be'emet there's three things that are going on here. Rashi is to one extreme, and Tosafos is to the other extreme, and the Ramban is in the middle. Rashi is learning that there's not even kluta, afilu—what's the words he's saying? Saying, Rafilu kluta means the metzius of kluta is not here. That's, rafilu kluta leka. Ramban is saying, in the middle, there's kluta, but not k'mi shehuncha. Even if you follow Rishus, there's no k'mi shehuncha. Tosfos is saying there is kluta and there is k'mi shehuncha, but where? Here! Not here, here, in the Rishus HaRabim. I'm sorry, in the makom patur. And since it's the makom patur, you're patur. So let's answer the first question: Ha'im amrinan kluta l'maalah mi'yud? And the answer is, masugya shelanu mashma l'hedya mefurash, believe, safek, believe, p'shum pilpulim, whatever you want to say, you know what? Lo amrinan kluta l'maalah mi'yud. Lama? Makom patur. Lefi Rashi, rafilu kluta leka. You saw the words I put out? Rafilu — whose lashon of Rashi is that? That's Rashi himself talking. Rafilu kluta leka. Lefi Tosfos, k'huncha b'makom patur. It's kluta and it's k'munach, but k'munach b'makom patur. And lefi haRamban, leka l'meimar k'mi shehuncha. Question number five: bameh? You notice there on the line, bameh. Bameh means... In what? Chelkei Rashi, Tosfos, Ramban, HaNal. So I tell you, ayin amlineis. The only problem is amlineis is very—it's not warm, because he's saying two Tzaddim, but he's not explaining all three of the Tzaddim. The two Tzaddim are kluta, k'mi shehuncha, is b'avir, k'mi shehuncha b'karka. That only helps me the Tosfos and who, and the—what is Rashi? I tell you like this: Rashi learns kluta hu klitat reshut. Remember how I explained to you last week how the metzius of kluta works? What does kluta mean? That the reshut is kolet, meaning it went from one reshut to another reshut. Says Rashi, since it's a makom patur, there's no reshut. The way it works is— That's right. There's reshus harabim, there's reshus hayachid, and this makom. And this is a makom patur, which means it's nothing. It's not a reshut. It's not a place. It's nothing. It's less than daled al daled. It's nothing. So what's the—l'gabei Hilchos Shabbos it's daled reshuyos. But to come and say that—think about it. What does the word kluta mean? It's here.

There's no here in a makom patur. Could you come and say it's in the fire hydrant? It's either in the house or it's in the street. But it's not in a makom patur. It's on a makom patur, maybe. But it's on a place. It's not an entity that's reshus. That's right, because it's reshus harabim. Shitas haToisfos, ... haAmrinan, ... ha'im amrinan kluta afilu l'kula, hei davka l'chumra. Rabosai, so let's learn the Toisfos inside, because Toisfos wants to come up with a yesod here, that we say kluta l'kula l'chumra. Let's see the Toisfos. Okay, you have it? Come. Says Toisfos like this: HaAmrinan kluta k'mi shehuncha. Yeah, you know the Toisfos? You know if you did it? Come, let's see Toisfos. D'kashya li, mai parich l'meimar, d'pshita lei l'Rabba, mina lei d'pshita lei l'Rabba? How do you know it's so pshita to Rabba, right? What does l'meimar? L'meimar, are we to say, right? What does the Gemara say here? L'meimar d'pshita lei l'Rabba. How do you know it's so pshita to Rabba? What do you—who said? Who says so pshita? Maybe—yeah, because what are you making? L'meimar, are we to say it's pshita lei l'Rabba? Who says it's pshita? Mina lei d'pshita lei l'Rabba? Im mishum d'ka amar, is it because Rabba said, hamani Rabbi Akiva hi? Hai mishum d'Rabbi Akiva is lei, ... k'mi shehuncha damya. Like what? That he's the most guaranteed man d'amar. What—what is he saying? He said that what? Rabbi Akiva is the man d'amar because Rabbi Akiva surely holds kluta k'mi shehuncha. But it's possible that Rabbanan also want—also say kluta k'mi shehuncha. Remember I told you this kashya? This kashya is this Rishon's kashya, right? So how do you know maybe even the Rabbanan don't agree to kluta k'mi shehuncha? But aval aliba d'Rabbanan, misafka lei. It's a safek. L'hachi ... l'meimar ... Rabbanan. Now, the im oymarim, Reb Yehuda ... Reb Akiva, because we understood that it goes together. That's the mashal. I mean, the way the mashal — that's what we said. You see the kluta d'arba amos go together. But the fact that you said, Reb Akiva, it's no raya that the Rabbanan — what? Yeah, that's what he's saying. Yeah, that's what he's saying. That's what the Tosefos is saying. We knew this. All this we knew. ... Don't fall away. We knew all the time that kluta d'arba amos go together, and since — obviously you see that from the Gemara. That's how the Gemara puts together. Right, so the question in Rabba — when Rabba comes — that's not what he's asking. What Tosefos asks is it could be the Rabbanan also. That's the question: why is it peshita l'Rabba? How do you know? Where do you see Rabba's words? That's what you're saying, you think that, but that's the Tanna. The Gemara thinks that because he said, Mani Reb Akiva. Mani Reb Akiva is only because he's the most guaranteed, but the Rabbanan can also hold kluta. Dollars. Who's they? That's what Rabbanan said. That's we. We're saying that. We're saying because Reb Akiva holds kluta ... and it comes out peshita lei that they argue on kluta. Says Tosefos, what's so peshita? Maybe they don't argue on kluta. Maybe they argue on daled. Why do you say mani Reb Akiva? Because Reb Akiva for sure has to hold the kluta. You know what? I don't want to see a difficult day today. Everybody read it. The kashla read.

You read it. It's a kashya l'rei. This is a difficult debate today, from heaven, from heaven they're sending me messages. The kashya l'rei. Read it. The mai paruch. How do you know so pashut the Rabba, right? So obviously they must be arguing kluta, right? It's only because Rabbi Akiva holds manoshach kluta, but not that the Rabbanan don't hold the kluta. The safek, like, because maybe they could still hold the kluta. Any side you say. Any side in Gemara on the... Two צדדים. Whatever it is. No. Two צדדים. Where's the argument? Okay, fine. So any side is really רבי, right? But also could be Rabbanan. The Gemara, you know, אמרים, how do we come to... Rabbi Akiva savar kluta k'mi shehuncha dami, Rabbanan, hakomedivrei Rabbi. Hava asi shapir. If it's all Rabba talking, then it's very good, because Rabba is the one that's telling me that the Rabbanan and Rabbi Akiva are arguing. So therefore, l'meimar the pshita lei l'Rabba. But it's not Rabba talking. It's we're talking in Rabba. The Gemara is talking. Achei nir'eh shehei medivrei Rabba. It's really the Gemara, so how is it pshita lei to the Gemara? Oimeri, d'hachi peirusha. If it's Rabba talking, that's why it's pshita lei that they argue about kluta k'mi shehuncha. If it's not Rabba talking, so where's the pshita? What does he say? V'amari, d'hachi פירושא. V'miba'i, ibaya l'Rabba. It's a question to Rabba. L'kivan d'ika lesfukei b'plugtaya, איכא למימר ספק דילמא לכולי עלמא אמרינן קולא כי משהונכא. That's what the Gemara means. The same way we can have a safek in the Rabbanan, so Rabba can already have a safek on the other side. That's all the Gemara means. Lemeimar, the pshita lei l'Rabba d'mekuta? No, hagufa, maybe it's only a safek. That's because it's only a safek, so that's what the Gemara is trying to say, there's a safek both ways. The Gemara never said, lemeimar one way that it's pshita. Lemeimar that it's a safek, and once it's a safek, so therefore it's not pshita the other way. That's what the Gemara means. Are we to say it's pshita? It's not pshita, it's a safek. And if it's a safek, the safek can go both ways. That's all the Gemara means, yes? Says Tosafos: דילמא איכא נמי ספיקי דכולי עלמא, אמרינן קולא כי משהונכא, ובזו כנגד זו לכולי עלמא פטור. And then it will come out that everybody holds patur, כי פליגי בדיוטא אחת, in the same place. רבי עקיבא סבר, אפילו זרק ממש, רבנן סברי לאפוקי. And the Rabba לא חש לפרש כל האיבעיות. Only thing is, Rabba didn't want to explain the whole, like this, all the different stadim of the she'eilah. Therefore, what does he do? ... רבי עקיבא. It's a nice ... רבי עקיבא. No, Daniel, say it over. Say it over, explain and talk. Okay. Tosafos makes two mechizbayis, we'll never get out of here. It's very simple. Okay, it's very, very simple. You have to promise me you're going to learn the Tosafos, because Tosafos makes all the cheshbonim. There's one nekudah that we can continue with the shiur from one nekudah in Tosafos, and I'll show you from which nekudah. Tosafos has an interesting shailah. Every time we say kluta k'mi shehuncha, then a zorek mishus harabim derech reshus hayachid, right? Or actually every zorek, every zorek, every zorek, right? Why didn't you come and say kluta k'mi shehuncha every zorek? Come and say, and therefore he won't be chayav. He won't be chayav. A guy threw a ball, daled amos, you're chayav? Kluta k'mi shehuncha, you're never chayav. Kluta k'mi shehuncha means every second means it's landed, so you're never one daled amos.

So if I bounce the ball, if I bounce the ball, boom, boom, boom, it went daled amos. Am I chayiv? No, it's not. It has to be for a mode. That's something else. That's because the special halacha of matzah. But zorek — who's not a zorek? Every second when he goes, stop, stop, stop, stop. You hear? There's no kluta. Taisis comes along and says that, l'meilah, Taisis says this will be a proof that we don't say kluta k'mi shehuncha. This is Taisis's nekudah over here. Every zorek would be patur. Comes along, Taisis Yeshanim on the side. Okay, the Gemara wants to be mechayev you that if I threw it from one reshus into reshus harabim, there's kluta k'mi shehuncha. So Taisis says, on the same side, that if I threw a ball into reshus harabim, I should be patur. Comes along the Taisis Yeshanim — we will never finish; we'll be here until tomorrow. It will be a Shabbos. You want to be here for Shabbos? I can't be here for Shabbos. I can learn with you Shabbos in the week, till Shabbos, you understand? But Shabbos, finished. Now listen carefully. You'll have to do Taisis yourself. You will. How much you make a bet you will? I'll bet on it that you will. Eliezer, you're learning with him, right? So I know you will. That's it. Sorry. I'm sorry. You'll have to do it. You'll do it, you'll do it. Don't be so lazy. You'll do it. Yeah, listen carefully. It says on the same — okay, you know what? Forget everything we just said. You know why? Because I see already it's too complicated for you to make the cheshbon in the Gemara. There's one piece of the Taisis which is beautiful. Taisis wants to know— That if we say a svara of kluta k'mi shehuncha, when I send it through the air, so then a stamama zorek through a reshus harabim should be patur. The same way I want to be mechayev zorek from reshus to reshus al yedei kluta, I want to be mechayev you. Let's come and say that you're patur on a zorek b'reshus harabim. Comes along the Tosafos Yeshanim. Of course not. Zorek b'reshus harabim is chayav. Comes along the Tosafos Yeshanim, and he says, What are you talking about? We're only going to say it l'chumra, but not l'kula. Who says kluta k'mi shehuncha is said l'kula? It's only said l'chumra, to come and asser it. Yeah, come. Very simple, simple. Tishkach mikol mashma. Kluta k'mi shehuncha, right? So if I threw a ball in the street, am I chayav or patur? Chayav, right? But I get kluta k'mi shehuncha, I'm patur. Says the Tosafos Yeshanim on the side. You see on the side of your Gemara you have Tosafos Yeshanim. He says, Ve'eino hachacham. That's some charidus. Ve'eino hachacham. Little piece, right there on the side of Tosafos. Ve'eino hachacham, amud beis. Ve'eino hachacham. Ata... The only... Do we amar kluta k'mi shehuncha damya ela l'hachmir, ela l'hachmir. D'i l'hakel nami amru, im ken, zorek daled amos b'reshus harabim heichi mishkachas lah? You're right. It's always going to have that bother with this question. So Tosafos seems to learn that it would be a problem. So my question to you is, do we say kluta l'chumra and l'kula? Tosafos seems to say yes. Tosafos Yeshanim seems to say that we don't say it l'kula, only l'chumra. Oh, that's the kashya. What happened over here? Another... it works, it works. I mean, another... it works, it works. What do you mean? Lo amrinan. What is lo amrinan? If the such a metzius called kluta and it's real... I mean, l'chumra l'kula, it works. I mean, is it a metzius or it's something we just made up off the top of our head? Bishlama, you come and you say that's a gazru, lo gazru, the sugya before, that's gezeiros, that's all gezeiros. But since when is klutah k'mi shehuncha something that we made up? And if it's something that we made up, are we to understand that when it says chayav in the Gemara, it's not really chayav min haTorah? On the svara of klutah k'mi shehuncha, chayav min haTorah mid'rabbanan, min haTorah? I mean, whoever said it's not chayav? It's chayav, right? So then what's the difference between what? Kula and chumra. So let's read the question first. I mean, we learned the Gemara, Rabbi Akiva says it's chayav. What was the case we learned it from? We learned it from parsha ani yasyadai, we learned it from the Mishnah, right? Klutah k'mi shehuncha, daled al daled, the whole business is the Mishnah, right? Mishnah is d'Oraisa or something. It's a new piece of information, that klutah...

It only be said l'chumra, not l'kula. Where do you get it from? Let's see inside. Now, ha'im amrinan kluta afilu l'kula, oi dafka l'chumra? And the answer is, according to Tosfos, we say it's l'kula and l'chumra. Mahu shitas haTosfos yeshanim al haGilyon l'inyan kluta lo hakel? And the answer is, לא אמרינן קלוטה להקל, only l'chumra. Mahu ra'ayas haTosfos Yeshanim? And the teretz is, משום זורק ד' אמות ברשות הרבים, because every zorek daled amos ברשות הרבים would be patur. אמרנו דהיינו שטוספות יתרץ ראיית התוספות ישנים according to the Rashba. Now the Rashba asks this kasha also, and he says, how could every zorek be chayiv if we say kluta? Do you know what the Rashba answers? תלכתא גמירי לה, halacha l'Moshe miSinai. Oh, so he also learns chumra l'kula? Yeah, we could come and say it's only l'chumra, but it's halacha l'Moshe miSinai. Only l'chumra? No, l'kula also. Bang. It could have been, but we don't say it. That's okay. The Rashba says halacha l'Moshe miSinai. Kluta k'mi shehuncha, that we don't say by zorek daled amos ברשות הרבים, even though it should be. Let me not say it's an halacha l'Moshe miSinai. It should have been even l'kula. It should have been that every zorek is patur. So why is he not patur? It's halacha l'Moshe miSinai. There's no... so why he is chayav? There's no hesber. So somebody asks you—interesting, huh?—so somebody asks you, למה אסור לזרוק ד' אמות ברשות הרבים? You don't answer him, according to the Rashba, halacha l'Moshe miSinai. I think what to talk about. Meizik. Easy way out, no? So, achlamaisin Sinai, finished. So, chatar gemiri, lakach kibalnu, finished, end of the story. Then the Rashba says, but then there's going to be those people that are going to be like Telzer yeshiva, not going to be mekabel when they say a halacha lMoshe miSinai, and instead, v'oid, comes the Rashba, he says a second teretz. This we have to work with. Says the Rashba, kluta is only said breshus acheres, but b'oser reshus, says the Rashba, we don't say kluta. My dear friend, can you answer me, what's the difference? None. So therefore, zorak breshus harabim, daled amos, there's no exact what I say. But he bothers me. He knows the Rashba, and he still bothers me. Say, Telzer yeshiva, you see this is Telzer yeshiva. He knows the Rashba. So he knows I'm coming from the Rashba when I told you my svara in Rashi, but he still bothers me. Now listen clearly. You ready? Simcha, I need you. You're my amudim, my arayos. You ready? Simcha, again, tagid li, lamah du kluta kmi shehunchah? It's still an open Gemara, kluta kmi shehunchah. How can every zoreik daled amos breshus harabim be chayav? She'eilos rishonim. Beautiful. Comes along Tosafos Yeshanim, says, dafka lchumra vlo lkula. What are you talking about? Where? What? What? Only midrabbanan kluta, chutz lreshus. Kluta is derabbanan. What are you talking about? Comes along the Tosafos Yeshanim, says, but I'll prove it to you. You know how I know it? Because you see by a zoreik daled amos breshus harabim, you're chayav, so you see that you don't say lkula. What is Tosafos' answer to this kasha of Tosafos Yeshanim? So because the truth is the Rashba asks. The kasha the Rashba gives a different answer. What's the Rashba's פירוש? Halacha lMoshe miSinai, finished. Okay. There's the כתוב. There's nothing. Doesn't mean anything. Even though you should be patur, bhalacha lMoshe miSinai you're chayav. You should be patur. It's very good. You're asking good Tosafos Yeshanim, good raya, very nice, but you're wrong. That's what my brother would say: You're right, but you're wrong. That's it. Although my brother, you know that he always says that: You're right—no, I'm wrong—you're right, but you're wrong. Okay, so that's it. Dilka vgemiri lo. Check. Comes along the Rashba, he says, v'oid. What's the v'oid? You know when we say kluta, when it goes from one reshus to another, zorak mereshus lreshus. But if it's zorak b'oto rishus, ein klutah. אני שואל אותך, הא? מה פשט in Rashi? What did I tell you, Shaar Rashi? What did I tell you? Oh, there is no klutah. Klutah is miklat, mimakom l'makom. She's not. She's not. You know what it is? You remind me of the Talmud. You remind me of the Talmud. The Talmud said what? Amar Amar said. Kach hu amar. Amar, Amar.

Masha techiyim ad hasof, ad hasof. They lost, they have one maalah that they have. Actually, a few maalos, but one of the maalos that they have is... so they have maalos. They have maalos. You know their maalos? Gevurah, Tel Aviv. Gevurah, Tel Aviv. They have gevurah, you hear? What's their gevurah? Masha techiyim... they have this. They can go, they can walk to the moon to put you on... you know that. You know, a Yehudi echad higi'a... Yehudi echad higi'a, yeah, from Crown Heights, he walked from Crown Heights to Queens. Lagid kamah... bismachas Torah. For what? For what? What? What do you walk? What for? You know what it is to walk from Crown Heights to Queens? Yeah, the Rebbe gives him power. Baruch Hashem. And Vatali... same. They come here, then they go back. Six hours they walk. For what? Ma yesh lahem? They dance a little bit and they go. Amanu tefillin v'taltanyos. Good, now listen here. You don't hear? Six hours. My father told me over a nice story. There was once a guy who was stealing, who was stealing from the Lubavitch yeshiva. They told the Rebbe. The Rebbe says — now you have to understand the nusach of the Rebbe, the Rebbe used to speak — someone was stealing from the yeshiva. The Rebbe said, You have to catch him, and you have to beat him up ad maves. You know, that's the expression. Lubavitch used to have always ad maves. You know, there was a... they found the guy and they started beating him up. The guy's laying on the floor bleeding. And they stopped, they beat him up, shain. All of a sudden one guy says, Avuh ad mura mar ad maves. Odd... odd... ad... ad... I don't know. The few more pir, that wasn't enough. They went on the for bleeding. Klum, klum, pisul, pisul. ... What? ... Ad mos. Yes, that's it, ad mos. I show you the Rashba. The Rashba is telling me clearly, because if you don't say kluta, only to different reshus. D'oraisa reshus lo amrinan kluta. I'm asking you a question. So to a no reshus for sure you don't say kluta. Makom patur. That's the whole svara. The svara is, kluta means niklat mimakom echad. ... Because makom is makom patur. The reshus has to be ... Huh? No. The Rashba says not that way. The Rashba is saying it never went. Klita means shezeh kalat mimi. Right. One reshus to another is shayach ... kalatati misham l'po. The niklat misham l'po. You know whatorei miklat is? What's the word orei miklat means? ... Kotim misham l'po. It's ... kotim misham l'po. Over here too, says the Rashba, so this is the nekudah. ... Mahem divrei haRashba eilu? And the answer is, kluta davka l'reshus acher, aval lo l'toch reshus. Eich bi'arnu, v'hikdanu divrei haRashba na'eh? And the answer is, kemo shekasavnu b'biur Rashi b'tchilas hashiur. Klita is ... okay. The Gemara has a safek now. Let's see the next line in the Gemara. A big question. It's a brilliant question, by the way. More like this. V'dilma hanacha hu d'lo bai, ba kira bai. Says the Gemara, how do you know that there's a halacha of kluta k'mi shehuncha daled al daled, and that whole business? By, by akirah, maybe told by hanacha. This, Rabbi Akiva comes and says, loi be'ina makom daled al daled, and klutah k'mi shehuncha, the whole business, that's only for hanacha. Aval akirah, we won't say klutah k'mi shehuncha.

Dollar, dollar. I'm saying, the name of kluta, I'm saying. Kluta is therefore, you don't need dollar, dollar. Who says a spira akira that you don't need dollar, dollar? Okay. We want to say that our Mishnah is רבי עקיבא, but our Mishnah is coming akira also. Maybe רבי עקיבא holds not anochi. Maybe not—who says he's talking about akira? That's Gemara's kasha. Okay. What's the hava amina to be mechalek between akira and anoch? What's the svara? Manashach, if you hold that kluta is k'mi shehunach, so the word is there's an anochah here. So there's an anochah, so you can have akira from that also. K'mi shehunach. It's k'mi. But whatever is—yes, why not? I'm telling you, kluta is—if it's kluta, it's k'mi shehunach, meaning what? That you're chayav for the hanachah even though it's not daled al daled. So if a guy did an akira from that, he's chayav, right? Yeah, but that's the whole point. The point is, if I'm chayav for it, so you see you don't need daled al daled. What does he see from here? Yeah, I mean, what's the kashya of the Gemara? The Gemara is saying maybe it's only din and halacha. Now, I want to דין to akirah and hanacha. What's the difference? What's the difference? I mean, if you don't need for hanacha, that means the akirah from that is good. Pashut shayla, right? Okay. The Gemara מסתפקת, בשאלה: שדילמא בהנחה מינה קלוטה, ולא בעי ד'. אבל באקירה, כיון דאינה על גבי מקום ד'. וכי תימא, דהלאו על הצד דקלוטה כמי שהונחה, הרי יש מקום ד'. What's the svara of akirah? The svara is that pshat, hanacha doesn't need—hanacha needs daled. But you have it with the svara of kluta. Yes, akirah is the same thing, right? So what do you want? I mean, in other words, whatever is good, whatever is good for the hanacha has to be good for the akirah. Teretz is, it's not mamash כמי שהונחה, right? It's not מקום ד'. So let's take a look. Look at איך תירצנו את הקושיא now. I'm telling you, the question is—pashut pshat, the question is, and you'll soon see that the reason why you're answering is because I already taught you this properly in the beginning. This is a kashya that everybody asks. On the side that it works for hanacha, it works for the hanacha, which means you had a hanacha over here. You had a hanacha. The thing was mamash מונח. It was on the floor, right? So then whatever it is, if I made an akirah from that— I have to be chayav for it, right? Because there was a hanacha I made. So how could you turn around and say that for the hanacha it's good, but akirah it's no good? The Gemara wants to... could be for a hanacha you don't need daled al daled, but for the akirah you'll need daled al daled. If let's say I picked up from that, then I'd be chayav. I mean, l'choira, that's the svara. It works both ways: akirah is akirah from a hanacha. So on the צד that it's a hanacha, how could you turn around and say that there's no akirah over here? And especially if you learn that the svara is k'munach al gabei karka and you have the daled al daled. So that's what we're talking about. Why are you not chayav? It's chashuv in reshus. We're talking about in the reshus. Why are you not chayav? We have to discuss that. Okay, we have to see. Every time you make akirah and hanacha, you should be chayav. But then according to the Gemara's kasha, the way the Gemara is learning, that there's a chiluk between akirah and hanacha, so let's split it. So then it's av and toldah. We'll see the Rishonim ask for a kashya. We'll soon see. Says the Gemara that l'maaseh, if it's good for hanacha, maybe only hanacha; we don't know akirah. Now wait a second, wait a second. So let's take this apart. If you learn kluta is mamash k'mi shehuncha, that's why it's good, then in a chamami the kashya is only with kashya. If you learn kluta is k'mi shehuncha and meileh lo iba'inan daled al daled, that's...

Where you don't have beinah daled al daled, because since it's klutah, it's k'mi shehuncha, and you have the daled al daled, then the kashya normally will kashya. So then that kir is the same thing. Then that kir is the same story, right? That means you have the daled al daled, and it's the same story. So then what does the Gemara mean? So that's, Eich tiratzes hakushya now. Api ma shekasavnu b'yarnu, למה הגמרא מתחילה נקטה המoney of Rabbi Akiva, d'loi beinah daled? So I explained to you, דאף על פי שיש קלוטה, אבל אין כאן הנחה מעל גבי... Remember I explained to you what's pshat in Rabbi Akiva? Avad we hold klutah, and avad we hold klutah k'mi shehuncha. But what was this problem in the Gemara? It's not called daled al daled. Oh, it wants— No, no, you need daled al daled. You need daled al daled. That's pshat when Rabbi Akiva says, you don't loi bi'inon, not pshat it's k'mi and therefore loi bi'inon. It's not k'munah cha gabei karka and still loi bi'inon. It's very, very simple. It's very simple. No, the opposite. The opposite. Not because, even though, l'maaseh, when the Gemara says klutah k'mi shehuncha, not klutah k'mi shehuncha. Comes along the Gemara, and the Gemara says, Hamoney is Rabbi Akiva. Now Rabbi Akiva holds you don't need daled al daled. So I ask you, if it's klutah k'mi shehuncha, you have the daled al daled. So what's the answer to the question? Even if you have klutah, and even you have k'mi shehuncha, but you don't have daled. You have hunach but not daled. You're lacking the number daled. That's how we explain it. If you don't learn like we say, what's the pashut pshat in the Gemara? What would ArtScroll write? ArtScroll would write like this: that it's kluta, it's not mamish hunach, it's only k'mi shehunach. And since it's only k'mi shehunach, so therefore you have to come and say that Rabbi Akiva holds that you don't need hanacha al makom daled. I mean, that's the Gemara. I mean, that's—but it's not true. Why? Because according to many Rishonim, and Rav Nezes b'roishim screaming and yelling that it's k'hunach b'karka, right? Clearly, the Rosh, the Rosh is clearly it's k'hunach b'karka. So what do you do? So you have to say either it's not mamish hunach, it's only k'hunach. And again, like we spoke about all of this. This is the shaila. Now listen carefully. Listen. So it comes out that when the Gemara says that maybe it's only by hanacha and not by akirah, so let's work it through. If the Gemara meant that you have the hanacha, and when Rabbi Akiva says loi b'inan daled is because kluta is k'mi shehunach, al gabei karka, that's why loi b'inan daled. Loi b'inan daled, right? What's the pshat loi b'inan daled? Since it's kluta k'mi shehunach b'karka, therefore loi b'inan daled. Huh? Then you don't need daled. That's what I answered. But that's what I said, but what's not what I said. How would you translate the Gemara here? Simply, you tie it to the— You know, just teach me the Gemara. You got to teach me the Gemara. Simple here, very, very simple. When the Gemara says that according to Rabbi Akiva you don't need daled al daled, you don't need to put it down on daled al daled. Why? Because he holds kluta k'mi shehunach. So I ask you, isn't that a contradiction? If it's kluta k'mi shehunach, in other words, maybe the Gemara says that kluta— Goes together with loi b'inan daled is because kluta is b'avir, right? And once it's b'avir, i.e., it's not on the ground, the teretz is loi b'inan. That's how you learn pashut the Gemara. The Tanna Kiva, who learns kluta, will learn loi b'inan. That's the simple pshat in the Gemara. That's the pashut pshat in the Gemara. That's how it goes hand in hand. And the Rabbanan, who don't hold kluta, is because they hold you need daled.

Which means you have klutah, and therefore it will be in a daled. If this is true, then you have a very big problem in the Gemara. Why? Because as long as it's good enough for hanacha, then the problem is it's got to be good enough for what? For akirah. That's clear. But if you learn in the Gemara that when the Gemara says klutah is k'mi shehuncha, and it is k'mi shehuncha, the only thing is, but it's not kehunach b'makom daled al daled. Okay, so the whole thing falls away. The kasha falls away. Meaning, what's the geder l'gabei hanacha? It is a hanacha. So for hanacha, you might not need daled al daled. But for akirah, maybe that akirah has to be from a munach where daled al daled. If you learn it's not hanacha, then there couldn't be an akirah. It can't be. Once you learn it's good for hanacha, then it has to be good for akirah. The point is, the question is, how much do you need that you could come and say there's a chiluk between akirah and hanacha? What's the nafka mina between hanacha? I'll explain you, because if you learn that the akirah is not al gabei karka, but if you learn the akirah is al gabei karka, so then you have a very big problem in the Gemara. Because sometimes if it's a hanacha al gabei karka, how can that be an akirah? And how can that be good for an akirah? What's hanacha al gabei karka? And the teretz is that even if it's a hanacha al gabei karka, but it's lacking in the daled al daled. It's lacking in the daled al daled, and that's what the Gemara means. Eileima maybe the daled al daled is needed for akirah. It's not needed for halacha, meaning you can have a munach, munach, but the akirah will have to be from a munach, which is al daled. You understand? That's pshat in the Gemara. Oh, what's the chiddush? Exactly, that's one Tosafos. I love you. See, this is why I want you to listen. I'm begging you. I'm not teaching you wild things. I teach you pshat. Tosafos comes along and says two reasons why it makes sense to say that it's only by akirah, not by hanacha. Eliyahu, wake up. Let's go. Says Tosafos, v'dilma — you got it? Read the Tosafos. No. No. No. That's same Tosafos. Okay. Here, this is the Tosafos. Says Tosafos, I want to explain this that we say, ha'akirah ba'i dyalfinan miMishkan, because we learn it out from the Mishkan. Simcha's good. Simcha, you're good, yeah? Shehayu noslin l'teivah, shehayuhem arba al arba, v'noslin liyad oseh hamelachah. So therefore, by the akirah, the akirah was what? From a makom daled al daled. Mash'ein kein, the hanacha, maybe the hanacha doesn't need makom daled al daled. U'lefi ma shepirashti l'eil, the dashino al yetzi'ah shem mekomo, al shelo mishaper d'bakirah meiri. It's talking about akirah, which means, al yetzi'ah shem mekomo. Where is that? Al yetzi'ah shem mekomo is bakirah. And since it's bakirah, so therefore akirah becomes the main thing. Mash'ein kein hanacha, you can make hanacha, whatever you do for hanacha is good enough. Whatever, if it's possible such a metzius, that's what he's trying to say. Whatever you do is good enough. Comes along the Rashba, and he adds two words to Tosafos. What does the Rashba say? Go ahead, Nu, look at the Rashba. Oh, what's the bedilma? Says the Rashba, the bedilma is a sevara. You know what it is? It's a sevara.

What's the svara? What is it? Says the Rashba, ... kol d'musagi, kol shehu maspik. ... Here, comes from the Kilas Yaakov. This is what you say, yeah? It says the Kilas Yaakov in the Rashba, because the Rashba learns that the ikar of the hischayvus is what? Akirah. And the lashon calls only a tnai, yeah? What does the Rashba say? Tosafos says that the pasuk of al yeitzei ... akirah. So, nachon, what's ... what? According to Tosafos, the al yeitzei, al yeitzei ishin kaima, mashma d'akirah. So therefore, so the kluta and the whole business and the whole sugya is only a sugya in akirah. And I mean, forget kluta, I mean akirah. And this that we learn daled al daled, mimkomo has to be al yeitzei. The din that mimkomo teaches me of makom, that it has to be from somewhere, is only by al yeitzei. It's on the akirah part. How does the Rashba? He says a little bit different: techilas hamaaseh, mesoif hamaaseh, and kol d'hu, not kol. Since this is techilas hamaaseh, therefore you need real business. But then, for the soif, the putting it down, you don't need the real business, says the Rashba. That's how he explains the Gemara's kashya. Yeah? Let me just explain it one more time. Tosafos says the al yeitzei is akirah. Mimkoimoi is daled al daled. The din daled al daled is, there's only a din by what? Batila. That's chashuv. The Rashba says it's not from the pasuk. The Rashba says a sevara. What's the sevara? Keilaf hama'aseh, you need serious. Sof hama'aseh, which is the halachos, called hu. Says the Kilas Yaakov, what does he mean? He means that all Torah that we learned, that the ikar is what? Kira, and the t'nai to be chayiv is the hanacha. That's how the Kilas Yaakov learns over here. What does he mean by called hu and not called hu? What does that mean? What is called hu? What does that mean? Huh? Called hu is kol shehu. What? It means a little k'tzat, right? Huh? Do you remember Rashi on amud aleph and Tosafos on amud aleph, chashuv and not chashuv, right? Remember? Rashi learns that if it's less than daled al daled, what's the yesod? It's not called chashuv. Tosafos learns when it's less than daled al daled, it's not called makom. Yeah? Rashba is saying called hu. It's not chashuv, because the Rashba was learning that the kashya of the Gemara was not on the din of makom, but it's a din in the din of daled, because the whole sugya was daled. Meaning, how did this sugya begin? How did I explain this sugya began? The sugya begins, kluta k'mi shehuncha, you have the hanacha, but what don't you have? You don't have the— Daled. Once you don't have the daled, then what is the whole chisaron? Rashi tells me the chisaron in chashivus. Mameila, the Rashba, the Shitah comes along and explains, therefore I believe that the chiluk between techilah v'soif is a chisaron. Mashenkein Tosafos. Tosafos never learned that the sugya was a sugya of reshuyos, because Tosafos doesn't learn like Rashi, reshuyos. Tosafos learned that the sugya is you have a halacha, but you have halacha into a makom patur, you need reshuyos in order to make the din of what? Hanacha to be chayiv. V'al yeitzei ish mimkomoi becomes a chisaron when it's not a makom daled, because you're lacking in makom, and at the same time he wants v'al yeitzei ish mimkomoi. The makom, where is the chiyuv? Only in the akirah. That's the chiluk between the Rishonim. Now I know I'm talking Chinese to you. You like it, huh? ... And klutah k'mi shehuncha, buddies. That's the beginning of the Gemara.

The body goes together, hand in hand, yad b'yad, yeah? Because רבי עקיבא holds you don't need daled al daled, and kluta k'mi shehuncha goes hand in hand. All of a sudden the Gemara here starts saying, kluta k'mi shehuncha, you don't need daled. Maybe that's all in halacha. Maybe l'akira this is not true. Maybe it's only a halacha. Yeah, so far so good. This is the Gemara, right? Rabbi Akiva. עכשיו אומר הגמרא, אולי זה דווקא בהנחה ולא בעקירה. This is the Gemara here. Yeah, daled, it's only a... By akira what? You will need daled? So, so. And by akira you'd need it. And therefore it's not an answer to our Mishnah anymore, right? Only answer? Because in our Mishnah it has to work both ways via d'akira is daled al daled. Okay. I come along and I say like this: let's analyze the Gemara's kasha. When the Gemara says that it will only be good for hanacha and not for akira, I say to myself, one second. If it's hanacha, then the akira has to be the same. I mean, how do you split? I mean, what are you splitting? If let's say a guy would come and make akira from this hanacha, you'll say that that guy made hanacha, you didn't make an akira. What does that mean? What does it mean? So this is a kasha that everybody asks, and עד כדי כך that the Rishonim try to find svarot. Is it from a pasuk? Is it from here? L'chalek between akira and hanacha. In svara it's very difficult to mechalek between akira and hanacha. Okay. So then I come along, I say to you like this: let's tackle seeing what does it mean that Rabbi Akiva learns you don't need daled. What does it mean? And with this maybe I can understand why, how it works only for hanacha, but it won't work for akira. So I say like this: there's many stadim in the Gemara. There's one side in the Gemara, which is kluta k'mi shehuncha, that it's mamish like it's hunach al gabei karka, and therefore Rabbi Akiva is coming and saying, loi be'inan, makom daled al daled. That's how you read the Gemara, right? Rabbi Akiva, who learns that kluta k'mi shehuncha works, so obviously, loi be'inan makom daled al daled, because you have the makom daled al daled. That's one way to learn the Gemara, right? That's right. Since it's k'mi shehuncha, huh? Not necessarily it is. What? Even if it's not, I'm saying, since we're considered k'mi shehuncha, since it's k'mi... Yes, I'm saying again, if the Gemara learned that it's k'mi shehuncha literally, then we're back to the original question that it is daled al daled. So what's the diyuk of the Gemara that you don't need daled al daled? So there's a few terutzim that we could say in this Gemara. Teretz number one we could say in this Gemara is it's only k'mi shehuncha, only k'mi. And this, that even Rabbeinu Chananel says b'karka, it's only damya. Remember we learned this? And therefore it must be watzumcha that still you don't need daled. Okay. What if you learn it mamish mamash? No, no, because you talked if you don't need daled. No, the first question won't make sense. I'm not answering the first question. I don't know, that doesn't answer the question yet. We don't know yet. I'm just pointing out, what does it mean that you don't need daled? Or there's another way we can say. We can say like this: when we say, Kluta k'mi shehuncha, it is kehunah. You do have a hanachah over here, but you don't have daled al daled. It's not a hanachah al daled al daled, which means that the Gemara's sugya was never if it's hunach or not hunach, because Rabbi Akiva learns you do need hanachah, just not on daled al daled. And what's the raya? Okay? Not pshat Rabbi Akiva holds you don't need hanachah al daled al daled. What's the raya? Because if you learn kluta is k'mi shehunach, the hanachah's here. Rabbi Akiva doesn't make sense. A hanachah on daled al daled is hanachah nowhere. Where? On what? Yes, so that's the other Rishonim's kashya. Where's the case? You don't have a case. Yeah, but the point is, what exactly does the Gemara mean when it says loy bina...

What does it mean? אי תנוך. The answer is, even if it's tchunah, but the daas is missing. You don't have the daas. It's tchunah without daas. That's what trutik k'mi shehu chadash mi. Okay. Now, after this, okay, we go and we take it back to our Gemara, and our Gemara says maybe it's only by hanacha and not by akirah. So then what turned into the shaila now? The shaila was never, don't you need or do you need hanacha? Hanacha you have here always. The whole question is going to be how much place does hanacha have to be on. So then I could be mechalek, and when I can come and say munach it is, l'gabei chiyuv I'm chayiv because I put it down, but since I wasn't oiker it from a makom, therefore I could come and say that the akirah I'm not going to be chayiv. Again, what? That, I mean, we learn from a pasuk. There's a halacha of makom daled. If you learn that you don't have the hanacha at all, so then the kasha is that you don't have the akirah, then you don't have the hanacha, and if you have the hanacha, you have the akirah. You can't split the two and say I have and I don't have. If I have the hanacha, then I have the akirah, and if I don't have the hanacha, I don't have the akirah. But if you learn, I always had that halacha anyway. But the she'eilah is a tenai of daled. It could be the tenai of daled is only in the akirah, and not in the halacha. That's the Gemara's kashya. So what am I telling you? Yeah, are you with me? You sure you're with me? If you learn that the pshat is akirah, a kli, you don't have a halacha at all, and the chiddush of Reb Akiva is you don't need a halacha at all, then it can never be that it's only one way, right? Because if it's called a halacha, then it has to be called an akirah, right? And if it's not called a halacha, then it's not called an akirah. It has to be that if it's mutar, then amoiker, and if amoiker, mutar. The teretz is, the sugya was never if there was a halacha here. We know there's a halacha here. What's the sugya? The condition of daled. That's the whole sugya, the condition of daled. Do you need the condition, the tenai of daled? Do you need the condition that should be daled on daled? And the answer is, one maybe you don't need, one you do need. If it's mutar, but not on makom daled, and akirah has to be from a makom daled. I'm just also—just like it works for halacha, it should work for akirah. But what's the svara? The svara is because if I made the akirah from the halacha, I should be chayav, right? So the teretz is, it could be true. It's a mutar, but l'maaseh, what's the geder, the tnaiim of akirah? It's nekar mimkomoi, but it's not nekar from a makom daled, which is a tenai in akirah. If you say it's not munach, then you can say there was never nekar, and if it's munach, then it has to be nekar. But if you say there was never the she'eilah, the she'eilah was always, we know it's munach, we know it's nekar, but the question was on the condition of daled. Now we have to clarify what the condition of daled. Tosafos on amud aleph tells me that what's the condition of daled? Because it's halacha of al yeti ish mimkomo, and therefore you don't have mekomo. Notice that Tosafos over here says, al yeti ish mimkomo, and therefore he says it's only by yetziah and not by hanachah. I can't, can't. The Rashba, the Rashba says I can't put it back into the pasuk. What do I want to put it back into the svara? What's the svara of chashivus? From Rashi we see that chashivus, right? Because Rashi says in the svara that less than daled al daled is not considered chashuv of hanachah. It's a hanachah, but it's not a hanachah chashuvah. The Rashba, who learns the sugya originally, includes the kamitzah like Rashi, is the same Rashba who learns that it has to do with daled al daled, and it's the same Rashba that learns that has to do with chashivus. Mash'ein kein according to Tosafos, Tosafos learns that doesn't do with chashivus. Tosafos learns that has to do with the makom. That's Tosafos, because the word, the sugya is...

That every time I have a klutah, it's into a makom, and therefore, and that's the chiddush. You need the, right, and therefore you need the daled al daled, and therefore Tosafos says, al yeitzi shminkoin. You don't have the daled al daled. The Rashba's l'shitaso, and the Tosafos. Simple, you with me? You got it? Okay, one more time. Should I see Eliezer? Who learns like Rashi is going to say that, ein hachanami, you know what the Gemara's kasha was? Maybe the chashivus and that whole business that Rashi talks about is a din in akirah, it's not a din in hanachah. Mashenkin Tosafos. Tosafos never learned chashivus and not chashivus, not at all. Tosafos learned mimkomo, limkomo, mim... So therefore he wants to mechadesh al yeitzi is only akirah. The word al yeitzi mekomo is only akirah. In the pasuk it's only by akirah, fine. How is this all l'shitaso? Because Tosafos always learns that you need into a place, and therefore since you need into a place, Tosafos learns it's into the makom patur. Mashenkin Rashi, who always learns klutah always is into what? Makom chashuv. It has to be chashuv, meaning it has to be klutah k'mi shehunchah into a... So therefore if makom patur is not into a... Not necessarily. That's like over here we just said hanachah is going without the daled, right? Because it is hanachah, but it's not chashuv. It could be, it is in makom patur, and it's hanachah, but it's not chashuv. Why is it not hanachah at all? Because Rashi learns it's not even called klutah. What do you mean? Tosafos learns that always klutah works into the place. Tosafos comes and says it works into the place, into makom patur. But Rashi learns klutah doesn't have to be into the place. You know why? Because there's no din of place. Why? The whole din of daled is not because of the place, it's a tnai in the hanachah. But isn't hanachah if you don't have the tnai? Yes, but you're lacking the tnai. That's... That's the word. It's hanacha, because you're lacking a side. Why is not what? One second. Why by akirah? This is hanacha, but it's not kasher. It's just not kosher, that's all. No, but why is it like it's not going in? That's the whole thing, because since in order for it to be called, the dinim of akirah and hanacha is only for the chashivus of the kli. It went to somewhere. Once it went into somewhere, so we can say klitz into a reshus also. There's no din of hanacha on something. Tosafos always learns you need the hanacha onto something. That's why Rashi says, and that's why Rashba learns like that. There you go. Tosafos, right? Amrina. That says it could be the Rabbanan also, that hold klitz kemishuncha, meaning they can argue that just can be in on daled al daled. Rabbanan could hold klitz kemishuncha and still hold, because they can still argue because they hold you need daled, that's all. Tosafos's kashya. How do you know that the Rabbanan argue on klitz? Tosafos gives two terutzim. Question one is, what's Tosafos's kashya? Question two and three is, what's Tosafos's first teretz, what's Tosafos's second teretz? I want you to do inside the two Tosafos which everybody promised me to do yesterday, which some of you didn't do. Anybody did the Tosafos yesterday? You did it? Okay, טוב. Now, I bring you over here like this. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. The pashup pshat in Tosafos, the pashup pshat in Tosafos is going to be that whenever you have a hanachah into a makom patur, Tosafos seems to say that the klutah into the makom patur is the reason why you're patur, because the klutah went into the makom patur, right? Went over, Tosafos says, and if the klutah, then it's a klutah into a makom patur. If you read the lashon of Tosafos, Tosafos is marich a lot. He doesn't just say that. He says it has to do with moshit and moshit, right? You'll see. I bring out the sheets, but l'cheira there's more to the Tosafos. Okay, now, you have to do the Tosafos Shanim, that little...

I just set them on the side. And then I bring you from the Tosfos Chaim, what's the chiluk between l'hachmir l'hakel? I asked you yesterday, what's the chiluk between l'hachmir l'hakel? So this is, the Tosfos Chaim speaks about it. What's the chiluk of l'hachmir l'hakel? The peshat says l'hachmir l'hakel. Tosfos Chaim says why. Why should it be? It works, it works. It doesn't work, it doesn't work. You saw the Tosfos Chaim. He wants to say that, yeah, because of the chiddushim, the chiddush in the Torah, ... l'hachmir v'lo l'hakel. Fine. All right, you'll see the Tosfos Chaim. It's in Yud Aleph, ois aleph. Now, there's a raya, there's a kasha from get. You know why? Because kerisus works by get. There's no ... l'hachmir. There's no ... by get. Okay. There's a very famous pshat that's ... Rav Nachum said it over. It's famous, Rav Nachum ... it's a famous Torah, that the reason why kerisus only works l'hachmir v'lo l'hakel, right, because the taich is that — I don't even know if it's so much l'hachmir v'lo l'hakel — but the taich is that the kerisus could undo — I'm sorry, it's not enough to undo the first akirah. You had an akirah, right? Now you want to say kerisus, right? You want to say kerisus can be ... So what's the shaylah? We should say it l'hakel and l'hachmir. It's not enough to undo the first akirah. There'll be enough to be mechayev, something like that. In other words. This is what they say. That's how they explain this. That the reason why klutza doesn't work, l'hakel, because it never undoes the original akirah. Whatever the klutza does, they cannot undo the akirah. Somebody saw this slide; they'll bring it down now. Same teretz. All right, same teretz. Now, then I bring you two kashas on the whole sugya of klutza, which is unbelievable. One from Reb Akiva Eiger, and one from Noda B'Yehuda. Reb Akiva Eiger is marbeh kashas. He says like this: when you throw something, right, from one reshus to another reshus, at a certain point you have a place where it's reshus harabim, reshus hayachid, right? Right. The cheftz is here. You saw the kasha, because you saw it, then you bring down Reb Akiva Eiger's kashas, right? Reb Akiva Eiger's kashas. Let's say you have a cup. I'm throwing it, right? So every step of the way is klutza, klutza, klutza, klutza. Right here is the window which makes reshus hayachid, reshus harabim. So right here it's klutza. So half the cheftz is in reshus hayachid and half the cheftz is in reshus... Now that it continues, it's klutza again, right? So it comes out that the akirah was from a place where it's half and half, which is pasul. Oh my God. Reb Akiva Eiger, how does klutza work? Famous kashas, Reb Akiva Eiger's kashas. No, but every... you asked the question, but every time that he makes the klutza stop, stop... That's when zoreh. That's every time a person zoreh, right? So what happens is akirah and hanachah, akirah and hanachah, akirah and hanachah, right? Okay, so there is no... Every time you throw it out the window, the last akirah and hanacha before it left was when the cheftz was in two reshuyos at the same time. And akirah from such a... from when the cheftz is in two places, right? You don't even have rov every second, you know what I'm saying? But before the rov, before it got to the rov one way, I mean, at the second that it was half and half, it was a split second that's half and half, right? It's a second of a second that it's half and half. I understand rov would go one way, but till you got to the rov of the one way, and a split second it's half here, half here, at that split second the akirah and hanacha, from the kluta, is from a chatzi chatzi, so the kira doesn't... The Avnei Nezer says like this: on the din of kluta, the Gemara wants to say that it's dafka from an akirah—I'm sorry, dafka from hanacha and not from akirah, right? That's the Gemara's question. Says the Avnei Nezer, how can the Gemara even— that's a crazy question. You know why? The Gemara's kashya.

How he has to be ... against his kasha. He does. Unbelievable. Yeah. No, but the point is, you see the mind of a genius. He takes apart all the cases. He says, kluta, like he does. Ravina is another problem, kluta. What's the problem, kluta? says Ravina. These type of questions. When Ravah, whenever he asks on the girsa, he brings interesting... Kluta is like a rishon. It was a genius. Now, Ravina is already a kasha. Ravina is already a kasha. He throws something out of your house, right? Says the Gemara that there should be halachos kluta k'mi shehuncha, only l'gabi the hanacha, not l'gabi the akirah. Gemara's question. She says, You know, I have a very big problem, he says. Why? I'm throwing something out of my house, right? Every second there's a kluta, right? Every second is a kluta, one second. So every second is a kluta. One second. So then it has to be that, but there's an akirah also, right? But I thought if akirah, it's not going to work. It comes out that you had the hanacha and you don't have the akirah, so how can the Gemara...? You're throwing something out of your house, right? There's kluta, kluta, kluta, kluta. So there was hanacha. Now there has to be, but it keeps on going, so there's an akirah from the hanacha, right? And since it's my ma'aseh... Who? No, it's flying through the air, so it's kluta. Why do they say kluta, kluta, kluta, right? And the Gemara said that it only works for the hanacha, so it means it's kluta. Now from here, from the akirah, it won't help me for an akirah, right? Because it's not daled amos. Because it's not daled amos. Oh, yeah. So then I never did an akirah from the makom daled amos, so Gemara's kasha is, you never chayav. Actually, Gemara's teretz means you can only work one way. How else does it work? Kluta, kluta, kluta. What's the teretz? This one you learn like the Rashba, all these kashas fall away. You know why? Because the Rashba learns when does kluta start? Only in terms of reshus acheres. Kluta is not b'oser reshus, so the whole kluta anyway started later. If you learn like the Rashba, all these kashas are kashas. Because according to the Rashba, only the kluta only starts later anyway. It only starts once— even though akirah is half-half, it's not a kashya. I don't know why Rabbi Akiva Eiger doesn't bring down the Rashba. Oh, so maybe you could say kluta on the half. That's what it's clarifying. Kluta— what does kluta mean? It doesn't work that way. No, because what's he— it was kaylet, it took it. I'm clarifying, I'm clarifying, I don't know, I'm saying, I hear. Is this a stira? What's the kashya? You need half-half. From the minute it goes out, that's when kluta starts. Rabbi Akiva Eiger is learning kluta starts the whole time, so the kluta is the moment that— every second is kluta, including the last second. And the last second is the problem. I'm saying the kluta didn't start till after it left anyway, according to the Rashba. But once it's klutz, it's a different reshus already. But klutz, I'm saying, once it's klutz, it's a different reshus, so it shouldn't be chayav. That's right. That's what I'm telling you. The Rashba learns the klutz doesn't start in the house. Where does it start? It can only start once it went into another reshus. Klutz is only l'reshus acheres. It's still akirah. Who? It's still an akirah and still an akirah. I'm telling you that there was never, there was never munach, munach, munach, and akirah from that. Why not? Because it starts later. The klutz starts in the next reshus. That's right. In the house it's never klutz. It's not in the house flying then. Right. When it flies out of the house, it's never klutz. While it's flying into the reshus harabim—no, to go to another reshus. Once it's flying from the reshus hayachid to the reshus harabim, right, Rabbi Akiva's question is, at the second that it's half in the house, half out of the house, there's klutz, and the klutz then becomes a klutz of half and half. But this—because half and half. So I'm telling you it never starts here, because in the klutz, according to the Rashba, when does it start? It starts really where? Reshus acheres. So he's asking me very good. I'm not right, because l'maaseh maybe it's half a klutz.

And if it's not klutah, okay, but I'll try to tell you, because the klutah is not going to work to leave. And the pshat of klutah is that it was kalut in a different reshus. The way I explained to you klutah, I'm telling you, it didn't start. The whole klutah procedure doesn't start till it left the window of the house. But muna anyway. No problem. It's muna anyway. Why not? So muna. ... Okay. Second kasha is, I'm throwing it from the house outside. Every second it stops, and it goes, it stops and it goes. Outside? Inside the house. Outside now. A person threw from reshus hayachid to reshus harabim, derech of a reshus harabim. I'm saying, so he's from one house to another house, but while it's flying, it's stopping, no? But that's not the kash of avnei nezek. The kash of avnei nezek is in the house. The klutah starts from the house, so then you had an hanacha. Where? In the house. Right? So now the problem is that how does the akirah work? Because the akirah is an akirah from a klutah. Well, he's right. Avnei nezek's kasha could have been on the outside. Yeah. Avnei nezek's kasha could have been even on the klutah. You don't need the case of the house, because even if it's from here, it never got into the other reshus. Right. Yes, so mach chazakah anyway. ... It's pashut from the house. It's pashut can't be from the outside, because you're not chayav anyway. You're chayav. What does he want? What is he asking? He's asking you to be chayav because once it was closed in the house, but when it left, an akirah can't be from a klutah. ... I'm telling you, I'm telling you, don't say ... don't start. Don't say ... this whole business, don't start. I'm telling you. He's asking for a kashya. It's not a kashya. ... Unless he's asking ... It's very simple. You threw from one reshus hayachid to another, and there's a ... So the Gemara wants to say you're chayav, right? So the Gemara, maybe it only works one way, not two ways. It works for hanachah, but it doesn't work for akirah. What does this mean? Meaning, you can have a hanachah less than daled al daled, but akirah from that, says the Gemara, won't work. Says ... so then I don't see the case then. You're throwing it out of the house. You have a klutah. Every second it's falling in the house, and you're telling me that an akirah from that won't work. So then you don't have akirah and hanachah anymore. You don't have an akirah. This akirah, the last akirah, the last minute we left the house, was no akirah. That's ... But can I ask you a question? This time I'll let you go. Ready, learn on your own. The Kli says in ... He brings it to ... He says there's two chesronos, and there's two ma'alos, so to speak, in klutza. Meaning, there's two problems in klutza takes care of two problems. And this is something that we spoke about, we touched on in ... First thing says in ... is that it's not munach. The klutza makes it like it's laying. And the second problem is it's moving. It's not nach. Oh my God. So klutza takes care of that. It is and it's not. Again, there's one problem that you need akirah and hanachah. That klutza takes care of that. So in ... and then there's another problem that it has to stop. And we spoke about that. In ... Okay, this is what I want you to prepare. If you understand this, good. It answers all the ... It answers all the above kashas. So should this ... well, you can answer all the kashas. Again, you can answer the ...

The whole business. I have a ... The whole business. ... One is that you need hanachah, and one is that you need that it should stop. Two problems with klutza. One you need here. But it's no what. What? What did you say? Klutza is care of what? Makes two things. Very important halacha. Someone to be a posek. One, ... to be klutza. You know what the answer is? A, ... B, ... which is a meniach, which is a nach, that it's not flying through anything. ... If let's say the wind would hold it back, the wind would hold it back, ... It's the same ... It's the same ... It would also be ... Yeah? Then ... If you see that you don't need it. Because ... And ... has to do with the two leshonos. Is klutza like agabi karka, like the lashon of the Rach, or is klutza doesn't mean on agabi karka? ... Like we spoke. Okay, go, go, go. Learn, learn the ...