Kadesh at the Seder: Arba Kosos, Shomea K’Oneh, and Everyone Holding a Cup

Transcript

I just want to—we have to start. College Orchans campus, yachad. We have a lot to do, a lot of learning to do. Everybody in the household, women and children, do lemaaseh drink Arba Kosos, even though we spoke yesterday maybe they're not mechuyav. Hischamehen, according to Tosafos, one side is that maybe they're not mechuyav, but they all do. And kids, the first of the Arba Kosos. It's brought down a minhag, a custom that some have, that even if all year round the baal habayit makes Kiddush and everybody listens and is yotzei, Pesach night everybody says over the Kiddush word for word, holding the kos as if they'd be making Kiddush. All the whole household, everybody is sitting and saying Kiddush. As a matter of fact, Ashkenazim bring this minhag. Rav Ovadia Yosef also brings the minhag. He says, Yesh nohagim. There are some people that have such a custom that everybody in the household says the Kiddush together with the baal habayit. Nu, nu, come. What's the reason? This is what we're going to discuss. What's the reason? So again, here, Michael, come, come, come, we have to— You're not saying that you can motzi another guy? I'm saying there's no—normally one guy does, and everybody listens and is yotzei. For some reason there is a minhag, and it's not just obviously a side custom of a few people, because I see everybody brings it down. Everybody, including Rav Ovadia Yosef, brings yesh nohagim. He holds it should be done that way. He holds better that the baal habayit should do it. He says, But l'aniyas da'ati, he says, I'd rather you do it this way, but brings yesh nohagim, this minhag. Where does this minhag come from? Why would there be such a thing? I want to say a pshat. The reason why I want to say this pshat, because it gives you a whole insight into the connection between our birkos, Kiddush, the first cup, the connection. It's Kiddush is an arba kosos. What identity does it take on, this first kos? So I want to begin with a Chazon Ish, a chiddush, very famous thing from the Chazon Ish, a shaila and a psak. In siman chaf tes, se'if aleph, Orech Chaim, the Chazon Ish has a question. Siman chaf tes, se'if aleph. There's a halacha called shomea k'oneh. Shomea k'oneh. Listening is like speaking. Listening is like speaking, which means that if someone else makes Kiddush, I can be yotzei the Kiddush with that someone else. Asks the Chazon Ish, what is shomea k'oneh? Is it k'oneh, which means it's as if you said it? That when he says it, when the person who's saying the Kiddush is saying it, so now we consider it as if I said it. Shomea k'oneh, considered, but it's not that I said it. It's considered. I'm yotzei. Shomea k'oneh, ki. It's not mamash oina, but it's k'eina. Or the pshat is, no, that it's mamash oina, which means those words are my words. Yeah? I'll give you an example. If let's say someone made kiddush in Sefardi, and I'm Ashkenazi, so we can come and say that, you know something? I made kiddush in Sefardi. Why? Because those words are my words. I wasn't yotzei with a Sefardi; I'm yotzei meaning those words are my words. Whatever it is, I'm just giving you an example just so you should hear it. Whatever, you should hear the mifta. It's as if those words are my words, okay? Or the pshat is, no, it's not those words are my words, but I'm yotzei with his words. Says the—

I’m saying is a proof that the words themselves become my words. Because when you make Kiddush, you’re not just saying words; you’re saying words on a kos, al ha-kos. The Kiddush is the words on the kos. Hu hadin, he says, let’s say when you read the Megillah, it’s not just saying words; I’m reading from the Megillah. If it’s just that the words I’m yotzei with, yeah, but I didn’t have the al ha-kos. So the pshat is, it’s as if the other person is me. Exactly. That’s what the Chazon Ish wants to say, shema k’oino must be more than just, more than just he said and it’s for me, because then it wouldn’t work for Kiddush. Now, b’mechilat—he said very simple: when you make Kiddush, shema k’oino could mean that those words I’m yotzei with. Yeah, but those words are not going to help me for having Kiddush al ha-kos. Those words have to be said al ha-kos. Those words have to be said al ha-kos. It’s not just mamash like the guy said. Exactly. Now, I’ll tell you the honest truth. I don’t really understand this Chazon Ish, and I’ll tell you why. Can I just finish first? Let me just explain to you. I have to finish first, like this you’ll understand what I want. I feel that actually it’s not a contradiction. What is that? There's no halacha of the words al hakos, but rather it has to be these words that were said, al hakos. Meaning there's no din that you have to hold the cup in your hand? Exactly. As long as the kos there. As long as these are words that were said al hakos, maybe that's good enough. Why does the Chazon Ish feel that it has to do with the act of holding the kos while I'm saying those words? Maybe it has to be words that were said al hakos. Put it on the table, the kos, and just say... No, that's not what I— yes, that's not what I'm talking— I'm saying a fine line. You're right, the words have to be al hakos, but it's because that these words must have the act of al hakos, that's where the problem is, or it's the type of words that were said al hakos make kiddush. Maybe I have a little right to this, because it says that if the baal habayis is not mechaven other people, so what should you do, or you want to be yotzei? He says, look at the cup and make kiddush yourself quietly without offending anyone. We're going to get to that. We're going to discuss a little bit of that. We have to discuss that. But this is the famous Chazon Ish, famous, famous Torah from the Chazon Ish. Whenever a person picks up a kos and he says, Kiddush al hakos, art thou should know that if someone's being yotzei, it has to be that he is saying it like I'm saying, because otherwise there would be no din al hakos. So if he's... I'm saying it's who said. Maybe it's not like those words are mine. And it's actually that I'm yotzei with those words. And those words are good enough for me, because it doesn't mean that my kiddush has to be al hakos. ... it should be next to the sheme saying it, and af al pi כן you don't need a kos. No, you don't need a kos. The kos just makes the words, that they're kiddush words. So what's wrong if he held the kos? Whose say I have to hold the kos? As long as these words were said on a kiddush kos, and I heard those words, that's a kiddush. That's what I'm asking. Who said the Chazon Ish? Chazon Ish brings a raya from this, and I don't see the raya. V'al kol panim is what the Chazon Ish wants to say. Okay. Says the Chazon Ish, I have another raya. The first raya was a raya from sefarim more, you know, I see. Says the Chazon Ish it's a mefurash in Tosafos in Kuf Tes amud beis in Pesachim, because it says in the Tosafos, ... b'koses. It says Tosafos, what, four cups of wine, not this whole family. Not this whole family. Tosafos, the first Tosafos, four cups of wine, the Mishnah says we should give. What about this family? What, he's a bachelor? There's nobody in his family? Maybe. Maybe he's an ani. Whenever a person is an ani to that extent, he can't get married and have a family. Maybe that's the pshat.

Tosafos doesn't learn like that. Tosafos says maybe even if he has a family, all we give him is what? Only four cups of wine. Says Tosafos, why? It's possibly not everybody is mechuyiv to drink. As long as one drinks, the baal habayis, he's motzi everybody. He says the Chazon Ish, if the fact that you can be motzi somebody with the drinking of the wine, meaning that one guy makes the borei pri hagafen and drinks, and that's good for everybody, so bhechrech it means that the other person is like me. Yes and no. One more time, please. The fact that Tosafos has a havamina that the other person, the baal habayis, could make Kiddush for me and drink daled kosos and I'm finished, I don't have to do anything, is a raya that it's like as if I'm, that he and him are the same. Not only you only say Kiddush. It said that you drank also then. Oh, so wait a second. So my question is, what is this raya from? What is this raya from? L'choira, Tosafos isn't bringing a raya from the halachos. Tosafos is bringing a raya further from the shtiyah, right? In other words, could be the sugya of shtiyah is really not nogea to Shomea koneh. Shomea koneh, the question is if those words are my words. But that does not do with the drinking. It says that you only have four cups. Says the Tosafos, what after the family? Answers the Tosafos, it's good enough that he makes Kiddush and I'm yotzei. This is Tosafos. Tosafos says from the Gemara, from the Mishnah, it would imply that you don't have to have each one his own cup. The question is, but they're not drinking daled kosos. The answer is, says Tosafos, that one is making the daled kosos and everybody else is being yotzei. So what is the Chazon Ish trying to prove from that? That one person can make and the other ones are yotzei. But the truth is, the sugya of Tosafos is not about Kiddush and the halachos of Kiddush. The sugya of Tosafos is what? The geya to the shtiyah sheba. You can't come and tell me that the shtiyah... So what do the people answer? Does it fuse? They drink. I'm asking. I mean, that's what the Chazon Ish wants, no? You don't think so? Again, I mean, it's not to think so. That's what it says in Tosafos. What it says in Tosefot is, in Tosefot is that since one person could do for you, so you don't—obviously there's a din of whatever it is, shlichus. Says the Chazon Ish, you see clearly that not only the words are misyaches. What is the raya from Tasefes? What is the raya? Oh, drink. I thought you asked me if I want a drink, and the answer is yes, I do want a drink, but that's neither here nor there. I mean, it's plain water. Oh, you know what? You know what? I'm not gonna drink the water from here. It's clean, you filter clean. Just give me some water. Oh, I can drink from here. Oh, so here, now. So the kushya, the raya is that you could drink from me, right? So what does this have to do, really, how shemei koina works? Could you tell me how shemei koina works with that? I mean, that's not really shemei koina, right? It's not really—shemei koina is different. The words, and maybe the words are lakos, but the drinking is not irrelevant to that. In other words, can a person make a bracha on tefillin and also put on the tefillin for you? That's right. That's a chanat, right? That part we're not discussing. And the fact that the Chazon Ish brings a raya, so it teaches me one of two things. Either it teaches me, yes, it has to do with shemei koina, or the Chazon Ish learned that the shtiyah is not the ikar, but rather the chiyuv is what? The bracha on the kos, and not the shtiyah, like the Brisker Rav says that the ikar is the shtiyah. Okay? Good? That's what it says here. If Reb Chazon Ish brings a proof from this.

Taisis, he must have understood that it's not the what, it's not the shtiyah; rather, it's the bracha. Okay. So the bracha on the four cups is the ikar, not the drinking? Yeah. You drink it yourself. And he held like that, by the way. It's a big nidon. Okay. Now, פילפולא חריפתא, everybody held that way. Chazanish says you see from Taisis that— I'm asking, but that Taisis is talking about the drinking, and the answer is the Chazonish didn't learn the Taisis talking about drinking. Taisis is talking about being yotzei the kiddush al hakos and hagadah al hakos, like kiddush. You see shemea k'oneh works for the kos. It's as if I held it. The Brisker Rav held that the ikar is the shtiyah, so there's no raya from this Taisis to what the Chazonish is talking about. If the ikar is the shtiyah, then this is not negea what you're talking about. You're talking about shemea k'oneh. You're talking about something else. Shemea k'oneh means if those words are mine, so therefore when you held the cup, it's as if that I held the cup. But that has nothing to do with me eating and drinking. The drinking that you're drinking as if I drank has nothing to do with shemea k'oneh, right? There's no halacha of shoseh k'yotzei. You know, there's no such thing, right? What is that? There's no halacha of shemea k'oneh on a maaseh, that his maaseh is my maaseh, k'shemea k'oneh, right? So the fact that the Chazonish does bring a raya from there, so it's either one of two things: either that proves that this Taisis is about shemea k'oneh, or it proves that this sugya— According to the Chazanish, it's not about drinking; it's rather about what? The bracha al hakos. Now, according to this, he wants to from Tosafos to see that the mais, the mais is go from him to him. How could it be? And the answer is because shemea k'oneh works; it's as if he mamash did it. Okay. Now I'm asking like this. Says the Chazon Ish, the mere fact that we do see someone can be motzi mei kiddush, so you see clearly that not only the words make me yotzei, but the words are mine and the al hakos becomes mine also. What would be the other way around? Let's say they're your words, right? Meaning you saying the kiddush, and those words become my words, and I hold the kos. You like my question? If the logic works— It depends on your— I know, of course it depends, but let's understand what we're saying. It goes like this: the other way around would work. You know how the other way would work? That if the pshat is those words are my words, so then al hakos would be a problem. Why? Because you're holding the kos. And you're saying the words, and they're my words, so it's as if me is you. But my holding the kos won't help anything. But if the pshat is I'm being yotzei with the words, I'm being yotzei with the words. It's not pshat those words are my words, and therefore that hakos that you're doing is like I'm doing. So then it can be good if I hold. Yotzei with your words and I'll hold. What's wrong with that? I hold that that's with the Tumen Hagah. It depends. It depends on what you're learning. If you're learning the Chazon Ish, then I can't hold it. What am I holding? I mean, you're making the words, and it's as if I'm doing it, and you're doing the holding on those words. But maybe if I hold it, it's not going to help you because I'm not doing the words, I, my body. So that's the two צדדים. Pesach night, right, I pick up the cup. Pesach night, I pick up the cup. You're making the Kiddush, I'm being yotzei with your Kiddush. So by me picking up the cup, it won't help me anything. So therefore the minhag is that you should make the Kiddush also.

Don't know what I'm talking. Okay. Let's say you make Kiddush and you're being motzi me. So what am I being yotzei with? Those words that you're saying, I am being yotzei with, but you said the words. Or it's more. What you said is as if I said it. Said the Chazon Ish a chiddush, from the fact that the cup also gets brought to me, so it must be not that I'm yotzei with those words, because I didn't hold any cup. That's the Chazon Ish. Now, I disagree with that in concept. I don't know why it should be that way. It's not possible to say that I didn't hold the cup and I'm still yotzei, because the words that were said on the cup is good enough. For some reason, Chazon Ish don't want to learn like that, okay? Now, I'm asking you, let's say that's true. I want to ask you something else. Would it work according to the Chazon Ish if I held the cup? You know what? I'll alleviate the whole problem. You say the words and I'll hold the cup. Let's do it that way. Would that work? So it depends. According to the Chazon Ish, it can't work. Why? Because since you're the one that's saying the words, to the extent that the kos is mesyaches to the shomea, it has to be that you're doing it, right? Mash'ein kein—can you plug the mouth? Huh? Can you plug the mouth? I don't know. That's a very nice shaylah. Could you fuse them together? Could you make your words my ma'aseh? I don't know. Lechoira, the next step is probably—because he doesn't have the kos. That's what I'm telling you. Rebbe could be yotzei with his words by holding the kos, but he won't be able to be yotzei. It has to be a tzurah of Kiddush, right? It can't be that I'm going to be motzi other people with this Kiddush and I'm not going to have it, because if he's—I'm holding the cup also, so it's your amirah with your holding the cup. So my only cup is nothing. But if the taich is I'm never having any way the ma'asehs that go with it, all I'm using, I make a Kiddush by using your words, maybe I can hold the cup while you make Kiddush. Forget about the ... This is l'choira the two deyos. Either the pshat is that I can be yotzei with your kiddush while I hold the cup. Mimeila, what ... אילן, so he makes kiddush and I'm yotzei, and that's the derech ha'olam, most people do it that way. But then if the other shita, the other shita doesn't make sense. How could you make kiddush and I hold the cup? It doesn't make sense. It doesn't look shteig. Now what's wrong if I use your cup? So, okay, you know what? You're right, my cup is nothing, I'll use your cup. I'm not drinking your cup, I'm drinking my cup for the daled kosos. Mimeila, they have a minhag that they also are ... Say it. I don't know why me holding my own cup ... please, this is for me. It doesn't passel, but it can't make that my cup becomes a kiddush cup. Why not? Because my cup was being held while he was making kiddush, not while I was making kiddush. Do they do this every Shabbos also? You don't need every Shabbos. Every Shabbos you could drink the other guy's kiddush, you could drink the balabos's. You don't have to have your own kiddush. However, this cup should be a kiddush cup. You're drinking it, you have to drink the whole cup. You drink four cups. If this guy is drinking the ... you can say tachton only needs to hold anything. So the one guy tachton do it, and you don't even have to drink anything, just like the balabos. That's right. Who says you have to hold anything? Where does it say you have to hold anything? So it comes out, the other ... you don't even have to drink. That's right. You know who says this? Tosafos. That's what he's saying in Tosafos. It's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. It's exactly what he's doing in Tosafos. It's exactly the Chazon Ish, the mechanics of the Chazon Ish in Tosafos. He says, hanach nami, they don't have to drink; you take care of it for me. Right? The chiddush, huh? Now I have a different question. So if you're going to pasken that one guy is saying Kiddush, yeah, let's say you pasken one say Kiddush, and you're being yotzei with that one because it's as if he made Kiddush on his kos. Do I have to bichlal hold my kos? Well, what's the shaylah? Let's say now, I'm not—I am being yotzei. Let's say not like the Chazon Ish.

Do a thing like this. You could have my Kiddush cup, yeah, my Kiddush cup with your Kiddush. Maybe, yeah. If you don't hold like the Chazon Ish, maybe there's such a thing called—meaning if you're saying not like the Chazon Ish, you can come out that a person can make Kiddush and I can hold the cup. What's wrong with that? Okay. So Rav Shlomo Zalman Orbach, very interesting psak halacha, brings down over here a psak that what happens if a person, taka is b'yotzei with the baal habos, af al pi kein he used to make them—everybody pick up the cup during Kiddush. So the reason I would have expected is because that's how you can make Kiddush. You can have his Kiddush with my kos, and that turns into Kiddush. But that's not what he says. He says the reason for his—I guess his grandfather, he's writing over stuff with his grandfather here—he writes that Rav Shlomo Zalman said that they should hold the kos. Why? L'man da'as shezehu kos haKiddush shelahem, midin shomea k'oneh, v'lo rak kos rishon shel arba kosos. They should understand that they're making Kiddush. Otherwise they just think they're drinking a full cup. I hear, I hear that it's a nice raya, but I'm saying that l'choira you could have said shtark. Maybe because that's how you make Kiddush. This turns into a Kiddush cup by having Kiddush al hakos. That's how you're having Kiddush. He says it, and I'm holding. There's no problem. Where does he go to this thing? Obviously it was a kosel. Do what? It was a kosel. He holds—yeah, but I'm saying you start. Yeah, I understand. You don't need anything. I hear. Yeah, but that's a chiddush. I mean, why'd you say, since you want it to be a kiddush cup, what's wrong with that? Unless he held you can't make a kiddush like that. And I don't really know why you have to go so far and say it should look like. Forget what it looks like. It should be. Unless he held you don't have to hold the cup for it. This would also make it into a kiddush cup. Maybe he held that if I put a kiddush cup in front, like he said, and I look at it, that makes it into a kiddush cup. And the only thing is, we want you to hold it. You should realize that it's a kiddush cup. So you're gonna do that in your house? They're gonna have everybody hold the kos? Yeah. But we're doing that. Everybody holding and one saying. And one saying. Rav Zalman said, so that's what he's telling you to do. He's telling you to do that. Everybody should pick it up, and he says a svara. What's the svara? Because like this, if that happens, everybody knows that it's kiddush. And on Shabbos, one takes small cups. That's nothing. You're being yotzei with his kiddush. Shabbos, you don't have to drink. You're yotzei with his kiddush. Why is he not like that? Because you have to drink arba kosos. You have to drink arba kosos. Shabbos is no chiyuv. Kiddush is no chiyuv. Right, so in time of kiddush, why should the second guy should pick it up? So that's what I explained to you. Either you learn because you want to make it into a kiddush cup, and you could do that. Can I have that you say, and I make it a kiddush cup? Maybe. And he's saying it's a different reason. The reason is that anyway it's a kiddush cup. That's what it's mashma from his words. Like what he said, because if it's on the floor, it's on the table, I mean, and I look at it, that's good enough to make it into a kiddush cup. Heker. He's just saying for heker, says the Rav Zalman. I mean, I would have said shtark. I would have said that the reason is, the takanah becomes a kiddush cup. You could say, and I hold that it turns into a kiddush. This is Reb Shlomo Zalman's pshat, and I just want to say an interesting thing. It would come out that by birchas hamazon, everybody should also hold their own kos, no? If you have to make birchas hamazon al hakos, and you want that the kos should become a birchas hamazon kos, so that everybody should hold it, I would say it's a good idea. I would say that's a good idea, and a chanami. See, you do that? Everybody hold their kos? Third cup? I don't know. You do it? Good. So I could just tell you that Reb Shlomo Zalman in his house didn't do that. And he writes in the bottom that for some reason he wasn't makpid. I myself do it because anyway I'm benching. But the question is to make everybody else do it. They make the women and the children—maybe you should. They should hold the kos during benching. Or, for example, if you have the Brisker's shita that you're supposed to hold the kos during the Haggadah, yeah? And according to the Rambam, that there's one baal koreh, there's one guy reading the whole...

Everybody says that. I've got the one guy reads it, and you should have all the women holding it the whole time as you're reading, holding and serving. Serving the wine. Oh, yeah, so it should be serving at the—watch, you're home. I see. I see. I don't know why doing maggid, they're serving. All right. Okay, so far so good? Okay, now. I have a shayla. Comes out that their Kiddush cup is taka Kiddush like the Baal HaBayis. It's not an Arba Kosos; it turns mamish into a Kiddush, yeah? Tell me, on Motzaei Shabbos, which I think it's this year, right? It falls on Motzaei Shabbos. Monday. Okay, you know how you make Kiddush when it falls on Motzaei Shabbos? Yaknehaz, right? That's the whole sugya itself. Yeah, Kiddush, ner, Havdalah, zman. In the Kiddush, you're supposed to make Havdalah. Yeah, Yaknehaz. So how could a woman drink if women are not supposed to drink from Havdalah? This Kiddush cup. If you're making each kos into a Kiddush cup, and Yaknehaz, and in the middle they're saying Yaknehaz, huh? Not supposed to drink from Havdalah. Women are not supposed to drink from—As far as women drink from Havdalah, chas v'shalom, I think, I never heard. You say that you grow a mustache. That's to scare them. Well, the truth is they probably grew mustaches anyway, but they blamed it on the Havdalah. But this is Kiddush also. Havdalah and Kiddush. Rav Shmuel wants to say his chiddush, that when it's also Kiddush, when it's also Kiddush... When it's also Yiddish, then there's no problem. That's what she wants to say. Yiddish. Why do you say they do say for Kiddush, not Havdalah? I'm saying Havdalah. They don't say Havdalah. It's a nice ha'arah. It's a very nice ha'arah, so they shouldn't be saying it. If you're going to make them say it, but they should do it. Should they say it? They listen to Havdalah, they all say Borei pri hagafen on drinking it. Man d'nafshach, let's make the cheshbon. If they're saying it, like you're telling me that each one should say it, so then you have a problem for sure, right? You can't say they're saying it, they don't mean it, right? Ela mai, they're not yotzei Havdalah with you. So how are they yotzei? They're yotzei Havdalah with me, but they're holding the cup for themselves, for the Kiddush cup. Yeah, for the Kiddush, they're holding. And for the Havdalah, yotzei with you. Yeah, with you. All right, maybe you can make such lomdus. You slice it up. Give a slice: Kiddush. I'll take three pounds Kiddush without the Havdalah on the side, okay? Zoom, zoom, zoom, we slice it up. Here, Kiddush. Okay, this— no, this is Havdalah, I don't want that. Or they put the cup down. Maybe they should put the cup down when it comes to Havdalah. But you go to the kitchen. No, but they have to drink it. They have to drink it also, and here they have Havdalah. Nice ha'arah. Let's move on. Now, according to this, I want to say an interesting ha'arah. If you learn Tosafos— well, what? What's wrong? He loves this. Yeah, there's nothing not to love. There's nothing bad that you can't love. This is nothing that you can't love about. This is just— first of all, you have to know, it's Reb Shlomo Zalman at his best. This is what they call vintage Reb Shlomo Zalman. That's what he was. He used to grind the halacha. ... the regular Reb Shlomo, not ... Hmm. He knew, he knew good. He knew good. He knew good. ... What's good, it's good. ... What's good. Okay, now, what happens after we learn the Tosfos? And according to the way Rabbi Wolkin explained to you, there's two ways to learn the Tosfos. We can learn up the Tosfos and say, like the Chazon Ish learns, that it's all about the bracha al hakos, right? And that's what's the siyachas to you. And the shtiyah? Eh, forget the shtiyah. Not like the Brisker, no chiyuv shtiyah, which many learn. Like dilma, we learn it with the Brisker, there's a chiyuv shtiyah, and still, somehow the shtiyah gets asmosis. The drinking itself goes to the guy, okay, who is biyoytzei with it. So what happens if a guy's an old man and he can't drink wine, he can't. He has diabetes, he can't drink grape juice. What chazonish? We don't know what the Chazonish, I mean, which side of the Chazonish. I know he yotzei Kiddush, but a yotzei... the drinking's not.

The drinking. Because I'm saying, the Kohen Chashish is yotzei to the drinking. I'm trying to tell you, Kohen Chashish, pashut, he's just yotzei the kiddush al kos. The question is, if you learn the Tos like the Brisker Rav, could you compensate yotzei with the drinking? Could you have a shomea k'oneh in drinking, in the maaseh? Says Reb Shlomo Zalman, אורבך, vaiter, yeah, פירוש of Tos. When you learn the Tos, you see that the asmosis could work, that he drinks and I'm yotzei. We'll have to discuss that. Now, so first of all, look at the Mishnah Berurah, siman קכ״ה, שער הציון ס״ק נ״ב, okay? The siman is—one second. ... ט״ו ב׳. ... Yeah. Can't drink wine. What do you want from the poor guy? What should he do? Yeah? He should try to push himself to do it. Says the Mishnah Berurah, ... רוצה לומר שמצטער בשתייתו וכואב בראשו מזה, he gets a headache from it, ואין בחל זה שיפול למשכב מזה. And we're not talking about someone who's ממש going to be—first he's going to get so sick that he's going to die from it, that you can't. Okay, go ahead. So which ... do you want to say? שער הציון ס״ק נ״ב. כן נראה לי פשוט, דאין זה דרך חירות. It's not derech cheirus, says Reb Shlomo Zalman, I have a better eitzah. Alternatively, let him be yotzei with the other person, with the other person here. He should be yotzei with the other person drinking. And he says, Look at Tosafos. Tosafos himself comes to the maskanah, v'nir'eh l'hachmir that everybody should have his own kos. He says, Nir'eh l'hachmir. He never said clearly you're not yotzei. So therefore, when this is a bedi'eved case and you have one person drink and everybody will be yotzei. Now let's analyze how that works. How does it work? You drink and I'm yotzei? What halachah is that? Says Reb Shlomo Zalman in a chakirah: is the mitzvah to drink, and if the mitzvah is to drink, you know that there's no way you can have a shliach drink for you, right? It's a mitzvah shebegufo. There's a mitzvah that you have to go to the beis hakisei when it has to be. Can you have someone else do it for you? It's a mitzvah shebegufo, right? The very famous Ketzos in siman kuf pei beis, se'if katan aleph, that you can't have shlichus by hanachas tefillin, mipnei she'ein ha-mitzvah la'asis ma'aseh shel shi'ah tefillin u'nochach al ha'adam, u'meileh d'me'eileha lo shayach shlichus. What about arba kosos? Is the mitzvah to have the daled kosos in you, or it's to go do a ma'aseh shtiyas daled kosos? Says Reb Shlomo Zalman, goes through: get, lulav, shlichus, shliach, kosos. Kitzur, he comes out, nir'eh pashut b'daas ha-Ketzos ha-choshen, b'chol mitzvos eilu, levad etzem achilas ha-matzah, hanachas tefillin, haveh kiyum ha-mitzvah davka al yedei ha-achilah b'saif piv shel zeh. Yes, this would apply to shtiyah too, because shtiyah means that your mouth should drink. Your mouth should drink. Who said? Maybe the mitzvah of shtiyas daled kosos is that there should be a shtiyah. Who said? Again, let's repeat. Says Rav Shlomo Zalman, what is the mitzvah of daled kosos? Is the mitzvah to what? To drink? Then I can't send a shliach. Says Rav Shlomo Zalman, why? Because the Ketzos says that any mitzvah shebegufo. But wait a minute. Maybe the mitzvah is not on my hand, but that it should be a ma'aseh of hanachas tefillin. But tefillin is not that way. Tefillin should be on my hand. Maybe, maybe, what should we call it? Maybe daled kosos is not that it should be a shtiyah as daled kosos through my mouth, but an act of daled kosos, shtiyah should happen, and I could have shlichus. Says Rav Shlomo Zalman, tzad aleph is no, it's my mouth.

What's tzad beis then? No. Tzad beis is, it's taka not that I should drink, but there should be a ma'aseh shtiyah done. And I have to see this ma'aseh shtiyah. We'll talk about seeing. We didn't say yet about seeing. There wasn't one word of seeing yet. Yotzei them didn't say anything about seeing. So I can be somech on the... Wait a minute. Says Reb Shlomo Zalman, maybe the kavod, maybe, maybe, maybe the mitzvah of daled kosos is that l'kavod the Yom Tov, the cheirus, the Pesach, an act of shtiyah should happen. So as long as I see, meaning, I don't know physical yet, we haven't discussed physical seeing, but as long as I'm involved with that drinking, I drank, I'm already yotzei. That's Reb Shlomo Zalman's chakirah. Very interesting, huh? Tell me, do you remember that I discussed with you that in every daled kosos there's also a simchas Yom Tov? Remember such a thing? Yesterday. Interesting. I don't know. Now, simchas Yom Tov can't be that I see you drinking, right? Can I have simchas Yom Tov? If you say that it's the idea of the daled, but if you learn that there's a din of shtiyah's daled kosos, then hachanami, maybe he's going on the tzad that there's no chiyuv shtiyah's daled kosos. But then there's no start. It's not starting from anything. There's no chiyuv, so forget about it. Huh? You see, if you learn like the Brisker Rav, you're a little bit in trouble, because the Brisker Rav learned there is a din shtiyah. Once you learn the dinishtia the way we explained yesterday, it has to do with yedei yayin yotza, simchas Yom Tov, that you're mesaken simchas... So he'd say kavod Yom Tov, the respect of the Yom Tov. That's how he says. I'll read it to you. Should I read it to you? Okay. Maybe it's not a mitzvah to drink; it's a mitzvah to mechabed with. V'im kein, have lei k'mo kedushah rabah shel Shabbos. It's just like Shabbos. What? D'havi rak borei pri hagafen, ha'ikar, what's the main thing? The shtiyah. Afilu hachi motzi acherim gam kein einam to'im. By Kiddush I can be motzi, but you're not drinking. How can I be motzi you in a teima? Shemea k'oneh shayach k'yotzei. If I'm doing it, and the answer, since it's to be mechabed the Shabbos, so therefore you become my shliach to be mechabed the Shabbos. U'pashut, im haya shoseh yayin... he says a very big chiddush. It comes out, let's say a person would drink wine on Shabbos, and he made a borei pri hagafen, and he didn't have in mind Kiddush, and then he remembered, Oh, Kiddush. So he doesn't have to make another borei pri hagafen, because he already made a borei pri hagafen. He had in mind to drink ten cups of wine now, and he goes and he has to make Kiddush, so you have to make another borei pri hagafen? No, says Reb Shlomo Zalman, a very big chiddush, because the ikar, the Kiddush by yayin is the drinking and not the borei pri hagafen. Wow. Yes. That if the rebbe makes the Kiddush, I don't drink, I gotta make a shehakol when I drink. That's right. So would Rav Shlomo Zalman argue about... I'm making mixed Kiddush and wine, then we have cakes here. I don't drink from the wine, so some poskim hold that if I want to drink Coke afterwards, I have to make my own bracha, because I make a bracha on—there's a patur because I don't have the— He's saying that. That's right. That I'm yotzei. That's right. But I'm not yotzei the bracha. You're not giving me the bracha. That's his ma'arech chiddush. You're not giving me the bracha, because the Kiddush is not about the bracha. So it comes out according to him that I also have to make a bracha? Of course, avad, because I'm not being yotzei with the bracha. What am I being yotzei? I'm just with the drinking. Drinking. So he said, continue drinking, and that's it. Don't—no borei pri hagafen. He says, l'chatchila you should say Kiddush, and pesukim of Kiddush like this, it looks like Kiddush. Yeah, but if I'm yotzei the drinking of wine, then obviously I could just drink Coke without making a bracha anymore, no? No. Why not? Why would I make a bracha? Yeah, because the hechsher is not negea. Right, but I'm saying if I'm yotzei with your drinking, I sent you as a shliach to drink Kiddush, that's all. It's such a brilliant chiddush. And the panim yafos rather brings down that in his early years, Rav Shlomo Zalman wrote the opposite, which means the famous pshat is the other way around, that the borei pri hagafen is the ikar.

Everybody learns the other way around, you know that. Everybody learns that the ikar is the baal pri hagafen, and the raya is because hakel b'motzi. That's the famous vort. All the yeshivos and Torahs, this Torah, that the ikar borei pri hagafen — the ikar is what? The borei pri hagafen. Rav Soloveitchik, I think, has many shiurim on this topic, that the ikar of the Kiddush is the borei pri hagafen. It's the borei pri hagafen. Meila, it's a chiddush. It comes out that according to pshat, the ikar is the shetiyah, not the borei pri hagafen. I hakel b'motzi, teretz: hakel b'motzi. Then he has a very nice she'eilah here: d'tzarich in, im tzarich lhistakel vliros es hashtiyah? Do I have to see it? Do I have to see it? See what? I don't know. See he's drinking, because he's saying a vort. Because is it mamash shliach? Or the taich is that I'm seeing the way you'll be mechabed the Shabbos. I'm involved with the kavod of Shabbos. And he says it would come out a big chiddush: by a cheresh, someone who's deaf, that you can't have shaliach, but he still might be yotzei because he'll have the re'iyah shebai. I think a guy deaf, can I have yotzei mei kana? You can't have shaliach mei kana, right? But you can have re'iyah kishtiyah. So you have to ask somebody, is there such a halacha as re'iyah kishtiyah? Tell me it's not good stuff. That's how we pasken. Yeshiva always used to pasken that way. He used to pasken chiddushim, chiddushim, go like re'iyah kishtiyah. Yotzei dei chovaso Kiddush hayom, u'ma shero'eh hamekadesh shose lichvod hayom. When I see you drinking lichvod hayom, I'm yotzei. Right? Right? Right? Says a big chiddush. You want to hear a chiddush? Moshe, you know what? You want to hear a big chiddush? No, so why aren't you writing this? You want to hear an interesting thing? He says a mar'eh chiddush: what happens Shabbos morning... It's good, good stuff. What happens if a guy walks in shul this morning and he missed the borei pri hagafen. He missed it. By Kiddush. And he sees all these guys drinking up the kos. He yotzei what? Kiddush. So now what? Nothing. He yotzei Kiddush. What can I do now? Nothing. He yotzei Kiddush. Oh, so Kiddush. I can eat? Yes, yes. With a bracha. With a bracha. Let me make my own bracha. I have a bracha that says you want to do it, do it. That's all in pshat, but they seem doing the action. I could just tell you, but if you didn't see, if you didn't hear, and you weren't paying attention to seeing, then it means you didn't have Kiddush, at least. And of course not l'chatchila, it's only b'diavad. Does he have to say borei pri hagafen? No. It's still in the morning, right? Morning, right, something. Okay, v'gam nira. Yes, v'gam nira. V'gam nira. She'bo echad limakom shemekadesh chaveiro v'nichnas l'achar priyas hagafen, yachol latzet al yedei zeh shemevakesh lo hotzia b'shtiya. Yeah, but I want to be yotzei with your drink. I tell the guy, listen. He's only yotzei Kiddush. Wait a minute. That's only when he's doing it for himself, but let's say a Kiddush, a rav is making a Kiddush, he's anyway having you in mind. Yeah, but he's having you in mind with his words more. No, it's not. No. I don't understand. Nope. I don't understand. He's only motzi you. You have to stop with borei pri hagafen, and borei pri hagafen you have to say. That's what you say. Machlokes, you or Reb Shimon is amen or not. Let's say later on, later on. Yeah. So then you have to make a borei pri hagafen. Okay. But stop with borei pri hagafen, not kiddush. Yeah, stop. He's talking about kiddush. Okay. And the chazzan, you have to watch him drink the first revi'is, not the male lugmav. The kiddush be like... Now. What? You would have to watch him drink the... That's right. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, you would have to watch. That's right. The day that watching drink the rov kos. I suppose I just say you want to finish the cup two minutes later. Right. You have to see. Okay, now. Now, what happens when I'm being yotzei by seeing...

The other guy made kiddush for me, right? And for example, this guy, this old man by Pesach night can't drink, so he's being yotzei with the other guy. Should he hold his kos then, or he shouldn't even bother? He shouldn't even bother. V'yesh l'adam bechiyei gavna, she'eino shoseh hayayin klal, yesh ma'alah b'chizuk hakos. Should he be holding the cup? I'm anyway not drinking. You're drinking; the arba kosos for me. So let's go back now to our original shaila. Our original shaila was, leminik, yeah, two steps. I'm being yotzei with the other person, and still what are we saying? That you should hold the kos. What? So normally the way it works is that he's doing the kiddush, he's holding the kos, and I'm doing the shtiah. What about the reverse? He's doing the shtiah, he's saying the kiddush, and I'm holding the kos. Huh? Again. Why do I have to hold the kos? What would be the reason that I have to hold the kos? Which means is like this. In other words, let's say I'm being yotzei kiddush with the baal habayis. I'm being yotzei with the baal habayis kiddush. I'm being yotzei with the baal habayis, and he says the kiddush, and he is being motzi me, okay? And af al pi kein, everybody holds the kos. So I asked you, how does that work? How does it work? And the answer is, we said a vart, that the bracha that he makes, just I borrow the words. So therefore, when I hold it, it's good. That's what we said. But if you learn like the Chazon Ish, that he's being motzi me for what? For the... also there's taka no point of holding the kos. You gain nothing from it. Aye, maybe no, we could say fakert. Even if what I'm taking from you the words that were said al hakos, I could still hold the kos. So let's say I'm being yotzei with his shtiah, and you hold it's the act of shtiah, so then there's taka no reason to hold the kos. If you hold that it's not the act of shtiyah, but rather it's that there should be a shtiyah in a kos shel kiddush, like the original vort of the Chazon Ish, that there's no chiyuv shtiyah, shtiyah. So it could come out that you could do one thing and I could do the other thing. So what's wrong if I hold my kos, your kos is also kiddush, and you drink? Would that take away that my kos is not a kos shel kiddush? I don't know, maybe not. Maybe that's the tzarich. I'm trying to figure out what the tzarich is. What's this chiddush? You're making kiddush and you're drinking it, and everything's yours, and I still might have to hold the kos. Why? The what? You mean this first chelek? He doesn't say that. He's saying in order to be, hagbahah al hakos. But you're being motzi me, unless he's not going on—maybe he's only going on the one cup, on the second cup, not on the first cup.

Maybe it's only going on the first cup, on the second cup. On the Kiddush cup, there wouldn't be a tzad to hold it. Kiddush. Yeah, but I'm asking you like this. Let's say your cup is a Kiddush cup and my cup is a Kiddush cup, right? Could my cup—the cup, I would say like this, maybe you should hold it. Your cup should also become a Kiddush cup, and he should drink from your cup to mekayem the din that there should be a shtiyah b'kos shel Kiddush. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with that? Haker, you make Kiddush. I'll use his words. My kos becomes a Kiddush, and let him drink my kos. This is the chiddush I want to... It could be if you can't drink, you hold the kos, you make the Kiddush, and let somebody else drink from your kos shel Kiddush. I like it. You hear? Or let's say you go to a hospital. We let that happen. What do you mean, that you make Kiddush and let someone else drink it? What's wrong with that? I make Kiddush. That's the story I'm telling. Let's say you go to the hospital. So let the guy make his own Kiddush. Let the guy make his own Kiddush, and you drink from his Kiddush. What's the shver? What's the shlecht? Okay, this is what I want to say for today. You want to be yotzei from this Kiddush, or you don't have to be? No, yotzei from everybody's Kiddush. I make my Kiddush, you make your Kiddush. You hold, you could say, and the shlichus yotzei. What's wrong with that? What's the shlecht? I'm saying, why do you have to make— you should make Kiddush. Make Kiddush. He wants it. You're making the Kiddush because you're borei pri hagafen for nothing. What's wrong if he'll drink from your Kiddush? That's what I want to say for Kiddush with that. I want you to go ask your local rabbi, okay? What should be that I make the Kiddush where I can't drink, and let you drink from it. Drink one and a quarter cup. Unless maybe it's too much wine for you to drink, so that's why I want to be yotzei with you. Okay, that's the shitah. Okay? Emetz Hashem, tomorrow, Urchatz, Urchatz, okay? We did Kadesh. I think we touched on Kadesh. We did good. Good? Yeah. We'll talk.