Shabbos 3a: A Hand Extended into Reshus HaRabim—Karmelis, Knas, and Makom Patur

Transcript

Therefore, lo kansu Rabbanan. Lemata miyud, saying to the shutafim, kansu Rabbanan and they made it into a karmelit. Let's see the lashon of Rashi. Says Rashi like this: Lemata miyud, right? The person stuck his hand out, right? Simple, the person stuck his hand out. It's lemata miyud, kansu Rabbanan. Lemaalah miyud, look at it. I told you over the Rimah, where is the exact opposite. And when it's lemaalah miyud, asur. When it's lemata miyud, it's mutar. That's how the Rimah explains. So let's see how Rashi learns. Says Rashi, no shh. Lemaalah miyud, de'avir makom patur hu, k'snan b'Zavim. Hazorek da'amed b'kotel, lemaalah miyud patur, k'zorek b'avir. It's a makom patur. Hu patur, v'ha'over reshut harabim lemaalah miyud. Hilkach lo kansuhu, d'lav issura avid. They weren't koneis him because he didn't do anything. It's a makom patur. Comes along the Ramban b'etzem, and he asks an interesting question. So it comes out, pashat yado lachutz, right? There's a whole tzad in the Gemara: karmelit, not karmelit. What happens if a guy would be pashat yado lachutz to a karmelit? What would be the halacha? Could he bring it back? I mean, the same— no, the Gemara says a guy stuck his hand out and turned it into a karmelit. So the whole shaylah is, could you bring it back, right? What would be in the same exact case? What would be the same exact case if he stuck his hand out into a karmelit? Oh, oh, oh. Lamden muflak, you hear? You need a karmelit because it's a de'oraisa. Now that you're sticking into a karmelit, what are you gonna— So you stuck your hand into a ... Put your hand into a ... The Gemara says your hand became a karmelit. Yeah, so that halacha, you're not bringing your hand back. If it's a karmelit, should you bring your hand back? No. But what happens if you tuck it into a karmelit? The same thing. What you made this into, you did it. You did it into a karmelit. What would be the halacha? So what if a chacham make it, it's a karmelit, and now it's a karmelit, you can't stick your hand back in. So it means from a karmelit you can't bring it back in, right? I'm asking if he did it into a karmelit. But what did they ask? Write the question. Adam hotzi yado lachutz. וכתוב בגמרא, צד שאסור להוציא את זה, אסור להוציא ידו לתוך כרמלית. אבל מה אם באמת הוציא ידו לכרמלית? It should be the same din, right? Okay, so you want to look at the Rambam Yosef. Rambam Yosef is in siman shin mem chet. Rambam Yosef in siman mem chet, okay, wants to say ... from here it would make you into a karmelit, right? So therefore it has to be, if you're motzi into a karmelit, you're not allowed to bring your hand back in. That's what it follows through, right? Ken halachah. This is what Maran Bet Yosef says. So this is question number one. The Rashi, diver hamaschil, lemata miyud. The lemata miyud, look it up. He brings from this Rashi. Maran Bet Yosef brings from this Rashi. Go ahead, Nu. ... Lashon haRambam. This is lashon Rashi. Aval b'motzi, lo gazru. וכן הבלעי גזירה לגזירה. You see, Beis Yosef says Maran Bet Yosef. Right here, v'nira, v'nira nami. דלא נאמר בדבריהם אלו אלא במוציא לרשות הרבים. But this sugya is only what? He took it to reshus harabim. כי דייק לשון הרמבם, ולשון רashi. Now what's the lashon Rashi he's referring to? This Rashi, right? Because what does Rashi say? ... למטה מיוד, ברשות הרבים הוא.

Kansu Rabbanan, mishavyu karmelis, v'lo ledrei, right? So when is l'mata mi-yud davka? Rishus harabim. So the halacha is only by rishus harabim, right? Then achanami a karmelis, why? Because then it will turn out to be gezeirah l'gezeirah. It will turn out to be a gezeirah l'gezeirah. I'm saying, it should have been that way, but he says from Rashi's mashma that it's not that way. And the reason is because gezeirah l'gezeirah, right? Because since the whole din of karmelis in the first place is only a gezeirah anyway, so to be aser to stick your hand back in is only a gezeirah also. It's a gezeirah l'gezeirah. Oh, so let's see. This is that Chazal gave it a din of karmelis. But why did they make into a karmelis? Why? Because it's because of the reshuyos. I understand, but l'maaseh it starts with the fact that you put your hand into rishus harabim, so therefore they made your hand into a karmelis to aser you. I understand, so good. Yeah, I understand, but l'gabei the karmelis... Right? ... Could be from Rashi on top is mashma even a karmelis. Yeah, yeah, where do you have the lashon Rashi again? Okay, guys. So forget—so this is the Beis Yosef. So this is what the Beis Yosef wants to say, that from Rashi in the sugya is mashma that the maaseh of the discussion is in Rishus Harabim. From the fact that the Gemara says, למעוטי מיוד, למעוטי, Rashi speaks about Rishus Harabim, says Maran Beit Yosef, you see from here it's only in Rishus Harabim. That's what you see. Even though you write from Rashi, you can make a diyuk, but l'maaseh the Gemara in Rashi has a discussion, Rishus Harabim. Okay, so you have it. This is question number one. Rashi gives a mashma, למעוטי מיוד. So למעוטי מיוד, Rishus Harabim hu, konsu Rabbanan. Mah medayik Maran Beit Yosef from that lashon that למעוטי מיוד is Rishus Harabim, and the answer is that to a karmelit it would be mutar. That to a karmelit would be mutar, you see? Mah medayek, and the answer is, motzi yadei l'karmelit mutar l'hachzira. Comes along the Magen Avraham here in siman shin mem-chet, and he wants to say, when did the Beit Yosef say mutar l'hachzira by a karmelit? That's only by a shogeg. But by a meizid, even Maran Beit Yosef will be maskim that you're not allowed to bring it back. Okay, what's the nafka mina? What's the nafka mina? He wants it like this: by a shogeg, the pshat is it's only a gezeira. But by a meizid, it's a knas. Same with Rashi. That's right, so what is this? It's nolad. Ein hachi nami, it's shayach ligzor, aval lo shayach lik'nos. So he says that's pshat: gezeira ligzeira we're only going to say by a shogeg, but when it's taka meizid, even Maran Beit Yosef will be maskim, says Magen Avraham Chiddush. So that's what we spoke about, so we'll have to see on the Magen Avraham more. Again, let's get out the facts, and then we'll be mefalpel on the facts. Again, Avraham tells the Rosh Yeshiva, shlita, made a good diyuk. What's the diyuk? That Rashi brings down in the boia baya. Yours, they are pshut l'rshut acheres. You could come and say, rshut acheres could even be a karmelit, could be anything, right? But l'maaseh, says Maran Bet Yosef, the context of the Gemara and the Rishonim is reshus harabim. L'mata mi'ah, reshus harabim; l'maalah mi'ah, reshus harabim. There's discussing in context of what? Of reshus harabim. We have to say the din of motzi, asur l'hachzir, is only by a reshus harabim. But if you took it into a karmelit, even though what's the reshus harabim? The issur to be machzir is because of karmelit, because they made it into a karmelit. Karmelit, that's called yam mutar. Why? Gezeirah l'gezeirah. Baa magen Avraham, and he says like, when do we say gezeirah l'gezeirah? That's only if you took it out b'shogeg, because then it's not a knas, it's a gezeirah. The gezeirah shema you might complete a melachah, or you might do other melachos on Shabbos, so therefore, you know, we ask on gezeirah, then it becomes gezeirah l'gezeirah.

Maseches Meizis. The Meizis says, Magen Avraham, in, the Rabbe said that he would agree that even to a kamlut, asur l'hatzilo. So that's question number two. Magen Avraham mechalek with the Rebbe Yosef now, בין שוגג למזיד. Now, chiluk, like I just explained to you: shogeg will be mutar l'hatzil; mezid, Magen Avraham will agree. Ma ha-chiluk אם הטעם הוא שנותנים דין קמלות הטעם משום קנס ומשום גזירה? And the answer is very simple. This is the Magen Avraham, because if it's mitam knas, he says you can make a gezeirah l'gezeirah, but if it's mitam gezeirah, you can't make a gezeirah l'gezeirah. What's the difference? Come on. It's very pashut, because there's no problem, gezeirah l'gezeirah. Not gezeirah, knas. Once it's knas, not gezeirah l'gezeirah anymore. It's a knas. Now, with this, I think it's very important to understand how the Magen Avraham learns the teshuvos Shenos Tosafos. Remember the Tosafos says, Mi kantsuha or mi asruha? And I asked you, what is the difference between the two nuschaos? I asked, what's the difference between two nuschaos, right? I told you that the two nuschaos is: do we give it a din kamlut, or stam asru itself? But you see the Magen Avraham is learning even in the kamlut, there's one din of gezeirah and there's one din of knas. Shogeg and mezid. Yeah. That was the Gemara's question, how good was the Magen Avraham. That's really the shaylah. Is it a knas of karmelis or is it a gezeirah of karmelis? It depends what girsa you use. If you use the girsa, mi'asrua, then the pshat is they assered out gezeirah, or mikansua, and that's the pshat. I mean, these two nuschaos depend on the Magen Avraham. That's what it is. The Magen Avraham wants to learn that karmelis could be sometimes knas and could be sometimes gezeirah, and it depends if it's shogeg or meizid. That's what I got from this Magen Avraham. And it's both. It is a knas and it is a gezeirah, l'gabei karmelis. That's l'choirah this Magen Avraham, yeah? Because it's a knas. Why don't we say gezeirah l'gezeirah? What would be the gezeirah l'gezeirah? No, but that's why they made it into a karmelis, to asser you on the first gezeirah. Let me explain to you. The way it works is we wanted to somehow forbid you on the first thing, but we couldn't do it, because it wasn't hakirah. Like we said, it was lacking hakirah. Now you have the hakirah. So it's not—it's remained to a karmelis to make you over the gezeirah, that's all. But the Magen Avraham is learning that, no, there's two things: there's a knas of karmelis and there's a gezeirah of karmelis. That's what I wanted to show you. From this Magen Avraham we learn—if someone asks you, what is this thing, karmelis? Is it gezeirah or is it a knas? So the first thing is you'll show him Tosafos that says there's two girsaos, and then you tell him the Magen Avraham, well, it depends. If it's shogeg or meizid. On the shogeg, what is it? It's gezeirah. And on the meizid it turns into a knas. Now, huh? Also, I want to show you, could Rashi—how could Rashi learn like this? Because what does Rashi bring the case mikan? What was the beis Yosef working on? Which lashon? The lashon is, reshus harabim hu, kansu Rabbanan, right? Yes. This is why it makes it also. Arop, arop, alamais. Huh? No, I'm telling you, so I'll show you a meis, right? And the Rashi uses the lashon, mikan. But on that he says that to a karmelis will be mutar, because gezeirah l'gezeirah. Because once you use the word kansu, there's no gezeirah l'gezeirah, I thought. There's no ... anymore. How did this start? I start with this Rashi, right? That's the pshat on the Magen Avraham. He starts with this Rashi, right? He brings—

The Rashi says the word, kansu. Ya'in Sif says now you can't start playing games that it's mekadesh b'chupah. If Rashi used the word, kansu. So you see clearly Rashi used the word, kansu. Now this, the Beis Yosef wants to come and say that what's the halacha? That into a karmelis, you'll be mutar. Into a karmelis will be mutar. And the Magen Avraham is saying not that way. On the tzad that it's a k'nas, into a karmelis will be asur. The Beis Yosef is basically on this Rashi. It's where it's coming from, lashon Rashi, right? Lashon Rashi is k'nas, and af al pi kein, we don't say what? Gezeirah l'gezeirah. You understand what I'm talking about? It's not Chinese to you? It's very simple, right? Okay, so let's do it inside again. Matam hu shenoisnim din karmelis mishum k'nas, mishum gezeirah? And the answer is, gezeirah l'gezeirah. If it's mitam k'nas, then we can say gezeirah l'gezeirah, karmelis will be asur. If it's mitam gezeirah, then karmelis will be mutar, because gezeirah l'gezeirah. Good? Ask the Magen Avraham again, ... and the answer is very simple: mi asruha? Mi kansuha. Meaning, that's the question. The Magen Avraham's question is the question of the Gemara: is karmelis a k'nas, or is karmelis a gezeirah l'gabei gezeirah l'gezeirah? Now, mai tzidon, ... the chilukim in lashon Rashi, ... kansu Rabbanan. And I'm missing the Beis Yosef's diyuk. How can the Magen Avraham say no, by a k'nas the Beis Yosef will be matir, karmelis asur? He says the case of karmelis mutar from this Rashi. What's he talking about? Okay, so we'll soon see. Now, how does the Rosh Yosef, the Pri Megadim, learn? I wrote the Pri Megadim, so you should think I'm not some learning Rosh Yosef with you, but I'm learning Pri Megadim with you. Pri Megadim says, Shatn the Beis Yosef: ... What does he learn in the shitas ... Beis Yosef? And the answer is, sai shogeg and sai meizid, and sai makes no difference. Mutar l'hotzi u'l'hachzir l'karmelis. I'm saying, to put your hand in and bring it back, you're allowed to do it into a karmelis. Beautiful. It's actually miktzuah, not pikkin; it's only reshus harabim. Thanks. What's this? Zeh okimzemeniach, something else. This is l'durei. The question is, are you allowed to bring your hand back into a karmelis? That's the question. Rashi says, mutar. Rashi says, stick your hand in, stick your hand out, there's no problem into a karmelis. Yeah, but you're not allowed to drop it in. You're only allowed to put your hand in and out. Okay, now, your rabbi's question on this Rashi. Your rabbi has a major kasha. Are you allowed to be moshit from reshus to reshus derech karmelis? No. That's a question Gemara later on. Tosafos later on says, kuf aleph amud aleph, amud beis, d'ivrei hamaschil lo nitzricha, he says clearly that it's not allowed to be moshit mireshus hayachid lireshus harabim derech karmelis. Derech karmelis. He asks a major kasha. According to the Beis Yosef, that there's no problem to be moshit into a karmelis. Because it's gezeirah l'gezeirah, so then what's the problem? Huh? What are you saying? What are you saying? Yeah, but you aren't meniach. Let's see the Rashi inside. Rashi dibur hamaschil, kuf aleph amud beis, lo nitzricha.

A person, maishit yado l'soch karmelit, is there a problem with it? No. No problem. Like, karmelit is this problem. The yad turning into the karmelit, that's the problem. But otherwise, I'm karmelit is mutar. Karmelit, according to Pri Megadim and the Rebbi Akiva Eiger, meizid, shogeg, you're allowed to do it. Of course, of course, you can give a tes meizid and shogeg. You don't like the... A pashut. Ramban... Ramban learns that you're allowed to be metaltel your hands into a karmelit and bring it back. Or into, but that's karmelit. You didn't take it; you only take it derech avir, so what's the problem? Maybe karmelit is not a problem there. According to the Ramban, we don't care. Elazar HaRav, he says this teretz. Says Elazar HaRav a very interesting teretz. And when do we say that a person's allowed to take it back? I'm sorry, to take it back. Notice that we say that a karmelit is mutar to take it back, mash'ein kein to bring it to a reshus harabim, to a reshus harabim derech karmelit, that's mutar, and that's asur. And he says his reason: v'hisyavda machshavto. That's Elazar HaRav's lashon: hisyavda machshavto. Let me ask you a kasha. According to Elazar HaRav, let's say I stuck it out to karmelit and I wanted it for that reason. I wanted to air out. I wanted to air out. That would be asur. I'm going to Elazar HaRav, it would be asur. It would be chiddush halacha. I don't know. When is the ...? Yeah. Mahu kushato, kushat l'Rav Rabah mi'ma shekasav Rashi l'kaman, lo shit mishut yachid l'reshut rabim derech karmelit. Why derech karmelit? L'choira, who cares? According to the Rambam, derech karmelit is never asur. There's never a problem with derech karmelit. All right. Which one? This Rashi? Mashma it's derech karmelit muteres, says Rambam. Lashon Rashi is mashma it's muteres. Kuf aleph? Patur. The Gemara there says that you don't have to be choshesh that it's going to go derech ... derech avir karmelit. So you see that derech avir karmelit is not asur. So now, mahu tirtzu l'Rabah? Yesh lechalek bein ladur yadui l'bein litein b'chatzer acheres. The answer is there's a chiluk, and what's the taam hachiluk? And the answer is because ... is avda machshavta. It's avda machshavta. Now keep the information in mind, because tomorrow we're going to come and show you how it's nogea l'maaseh. So therefore, here's ... I'm asking you, what happens if it's melachah ... and put it there? Oh, so we have to see this. This we have to work on. We'll see tomorrow. Now, Tosafos has a shita. If you look, Tosafos' shita is like this. Our sugya. Kan l'maalah miyud. V'im tomar, l'maalah miyud l'chatchilah nami mutar. What do you mean? It's stam mutar. D'ha b'makom patur. What's ... The verse is ... l'maalah miyud. So what's the chiddush? I need a chiddush, mutar l'hotzi l'maalah miyud. Mutar, it's still mutar. Yeah, it's mutar. Yeah. The question is, mai ka mashma lan? What's the chiddush? Nothing. What's the chiddush? Yesh lomar there is a chiddush. What's the chiddush? The kamashma lan, even if he hotzio mitchilah derech matah miyud, even if he originally took it out l'matah miyud, mutar l'hotzio l'maalah miyud, v'lo kansinan lei. This would be asur. What does he do? He brings it back. He brings it back the way it is. Really heavy, you can pick it up.

Yes, that's a proof for. That's Tosafos. That's Tosafos. You will take it out from the... And let me tell you what the problem is. So the... Kol ha'olam, kol ha'olam makshim. Yeah, yeah. Kol ha'olam makshim she'eilah peshutah. When you learn this Tosafos, mashma that derech baka b'tur is taka mutar, right? Obviously the Tosafos holds shakla v'tarya, right? You know that that's not true lahalachah. You know that. You're aware of that. So then there's a chiddush in the Mishnah. Mahu kushya ha'olam Rabbanan d'Ben Azzai. This you should know, you learned this in ... Savutsky, l'kaman hei amud beis. Remember Ben Azzai and the Rabbanan? Yeah. Jumping. ... Rabbanan d'Ben Azzai, you hear that the Rabbanan... A few lines later, if you're allowed to take derech makom patur, machlokes Gemara later. According to... Rabbanan hold you're not allowed to do it. Very good, very good. ... Okay. No jumping, no. In the case tomorrow is like Ben Azzai. Question number ... is like this: ... Rabbanan d'Azai, she'osrim l'havi ... derech makom patur, they asser it. So what is Tosafos coming and saying, that what's the chiddush is so mutar? Who says it's so mutar? What do you mean? Tosafos, you see derech makom patur becomes aser always. Then you need a ... for that. Tosafos over here word, Tosafos over here word, that there's no chiddush. There's no chiddush whatsoever by ... derech l'maalah miyud. It has to be up and down, up and down. What are you talking about? This is a very big chiddush. Rabbanan d'Azai hold you're not doing like derech makom patur. What are you talking about? Huh? Whatever it is, l'maaseh you can't say it's not a chiddush anymore, because according to Rabbanan, l'maaseh if you're ... derech makom patur, according to Rabbanan it's aser. Whatever it is, you can't come and say it's not a chiddush anymore when you put it to a makom patur. What do you mean? Makom patur is not mutar to be ... Whatever it is, so it's not a chiddush. Tosafos, it's not a chiddush. Tosafos has to be even like, I put it underneath and I bring it up. Yeah. But I say holds makom pטור. Finished. No, because it's not nogea right now. Right now we see from here clearly that Rabbanan hold derech makom pטור is asur. Everybody asks, what's Tosfos talking about? ... Yeah, that the Gaon speaks about. What happens? Yes. Come, come. Look it up. Shin nun hei, come. It's still בשביל you. Rama, shin nun hei, seif gimel. Go ahead. Who's reading it? Nu, read it פה. Shin nun hei. ... You have a Beis Yosef, right? Beis hakisei, says the Rama like this: 'Hagah, vyesh omrim, im beis hakisei l'maalah me'asarah, asur b'chol inyan.' Why? 'Ha'motzi mireshus hayachid l'karmelis, derech makom pטור.'

Yes, sure, because it was pulled out, no? You went through from falling, no? ... I hope you're mature enough to learn this sefer Shulchan Aruch without giggling like babies. You know, Briskers, they have a problem with the bathroom on Shabbos. Comes from here. You know where it comes from. I can't detail it for you, but I want you to imagine it, all right? That when you go, the plumbing, no, that's the problem, you see? So where's the beis hakisei? It's l'maalah me'asarah, and it's mutar, because even though it ends up in a karmelis, but it went from reshus hayachid. You know, all cases are like this. All bathrooms are like this. Sure, sure. Here, so listen good. The kids are ma'aseh. Says the Ramah that it's mutar, yeah? Don't ask me to... reshus hayachid, karmelis, and the thing is a makom patur, because it's l'maalah me'yud. The beis hakisei, says the Ramah, it's mutar. Says the Rabbeinu HaGra, where does this come from? Where did he get this information from? You know what the answer is? You got it from ... ... This is the case. Give me a case. Ten is not ... Twelve is ... Second floor. Second floor. ... Second floor. This is the case. Now let's go back. Not now. We're not learning. This is basically. ... Comes along, comes along, he says, Where does all this come from? Yeah? He says like this. Says the Gra, says Rabbeinu Eliyahu, that our sugya is the raya. It comes from our sugya. Now let's look at question number Yud-Daled. ... right? The dvar of the mutar lehachziro l'maalah miyud, hainu ... משום שאינו יד קרמוס גמור. מה שאין כן בקרמוס גמור, באמת אסור, מהו ראיה ... תוספות. נו? That's the sugya, no? Yeah, but it came back. So what's he saying, no? The Gemara says like this, yeah: ויש אומרים, דאם בית הכיסא למעלה מעשרה, שרי בכל ענין, מותר. Why? דמותר שיכול לקרמוס דרך מקום פטור. דרך מקום פטור. I, Tosafos says that that's right. What's the bottom line? This is the same — it's not really the same question. It's against the Rabbanan. Because you now go through a derech makom patur, right? That's the point. So Tosafos is our Gemara. See, this is where I got it from. You see? You see that our Gemara is teaching you that derech makom patur is mutar. That's what you see from here. Oh, you want to read the Gra? Read it, read it. He wants to say it's not a raya. Why? Well... Okay, but Tosafos is kasha. What was Tosafos' kasha? Tosafos had a kasha: if it's from ma'alah l'matah, of course it's mutar. Why is it mutar? Derech... and then it becomes a karmelis. That's called peshita mutar, says the Gra. You see from here it's peshita mutar.

Go ahead, keep on reading. ... היום זה ברשות היחיד. ... תהליך עיון. ... אוקיי, go ahead, keep on reading. ... מעיין תוספות גימל. This, our Tosafos. What is the Gra say from our Tosafos? Go ahead, Nu. ... hundred kushyos were duchta. ... Okay. Let me tell you what he says. Okay, we have maybe a problem in the sugya. What's the problem? Our Tosafos says, l'maalah miyud, it's mutar, because even though derech makom patur, it's mutar. Everybody asks, what are you talking about? I, the Gemara says clearly that the Rabbanan aser derech, right? Yes, so how can you take against the Gemara? Rabbanan say so, right? Yes, that's the question. That's what everybody asks. Says the Gra, you're missing the point here. If the case was a regular case of real karmelit, here it's not a real karmelit either. It's tel yad. It's only the Rabbanan turned it into a reshus ha-yachid. When the Rabbanan turned it into a reshus ha-yachid, on this Tosafos is asking gevald. Exactly. That's what I want to show you. The Gra is saying that even in the sugya of karmelit, this is not a real karmelit. This has to be what? A fake karmelit. Since it's not a real karmelis anyway, that's why Tosafos says his nekudah, l'maalah me'Yud is mutar, because it's not a real derech karmelis. It's not a real derech makom patur. It's not derech anything. Mameila it's not a stirah from the Gemara. Mameila it's not a stirah from the Gemara. And says the Rambam, says the Gra, so the problem with this is you still don't answer the Rambam. Why not? Because then what was Tosafos's kashya in the first place? Because that would be the chiddush. The chiddush is that it's not called a real karmelis. Again. Again, he's saying like this: the Rambam is based on this Tosafos. That's what the Gra wants to say. How is it based on this Tosafos? On one hand, we have a problem that the Gemara says that derech makom patur is Rabbanan asur, derech karmelis is Rabbanan asur. It's not mutar. So mitzad sheini, we turn around, so how could Tosafos say clearly that derech makom patur is mutar? How could it be mutar? L'hotzi l'maalah me'Yud is mutar l'chatchilah. It's not true.

Says the Gra, you have to answer that a real makom patur and a real karmelis in the sugya, but this is not a real karmelis and not a real makom patur; it's not. And they only gave it a din k'ilu. That's what he means, the Gra. It's not a real—it's not a karmelis, it's not a real makom patur. Says the Gra, the only problem with this is that I'm back to the original Tosafos. What was Tosafos's kasha? There's no chiddush. There sure is a chiddush that this is not considered a regular karmelis. What was the kasha? It's patur, of course you're patur. There's no of course you're patur. Maybe the reason why you're patur is only because it's not a real karmelis and it's taka chiddush l'olam haYehudi. ... says the Gra, the problem with this Tosafos is he ... himself ... That's the goy, okay? We got it? You understand it, or you're just sleeping? Why sleeping today? You know what the answer is? Our Tosafos. What's the raya to the psak of the Rama, our Tosafos, right? What's the problem with this? The problem is, and I write you with him, איתא, הא דרב קושיא לדוכתיה. מאי קא משמע לן, הא אף על גב דגמרי מותר כי האי גוונא. And you're back to the same kasha again. What do you mean? Okay. There's a Rashba. It's a very nice Rashba. The Rashba brings down, yeah, the Rashba brings down Tosafos, yeah. He says, אי דרך מקום פטור, and דרך מקום פטור should be aser. So the Rashba gives a teretz. He asks a fair kasha: אי דרך מקום פטור? Yeah, no? Go ahead, through the Rashba. Hold, דרך מקום פטור אסור. Okay, so take out the Rashba. Take out the Rashba. I want you to two terutzim he gives, and then we'll stop. Here, here. Read the Rashba. Take out the Rashba. What did you just read? Oh, I should read now? That line, a very important line over here, yeah? Very important line. Read the line. Go ahead. Rashba. He brings Tosafos, yeah, and then he says, he says, יש מי ש... The ... l'maalah ... miyud, v'achzir misham. Mishum l'maalah miyud, makom patur. Because ... l'maalah miyud is makom patur. Now listen here. Mutar lehotzi mikarmelit l'makom patur, u'mimakom patur ... Right. No, but ... That's unbelievable. You know what? I made two ... okay. He didn't repeat twice. He adds an extra few words. He learns that you have to break up the case. When they hear this l'maalah miyud, it's not only a karmelit, it's a karmelit and a makom patur. So it comes out that you weren't machnis to a karmelit and brought back from a karmelit. And brought back from a makom patur. It works both ways. You took from a karmelit to a makom patur and from a makom patur to ... Read it again. One more time, one more time, one more time. Mutar lehotzi mikarmelit l'makom patur, u'mimakom patur ... Our Tosafos, no? That's right. Can you bring it up? Maybe, maybe. Put your hands up.

Ride. From the starabim, not starabim. Your hand only can be karmelit, only in reshus harabim. ... No, no, no. Okay, okay, let me from the beginning. ... למעלה מי' ... אלא שמותר להחזירה למעלה מעשרה. ... מותר להגביה למעלה מי' ... ולהחזיר לשם משום דלמעלה מי' מקום פטור הוא, ומותר להוציא מכרמלית למקום פטור, וממקום פטור לרשות היחיד. No, he gives the ... words. ... What he's saying is that there's no zero here in the first place, since you're ... And that's not what he says. He says that it is ... karmelit. But a tafus from makom patur is mutar, from makom patur to reshus hayachid is mutar. And we're supposed to... Tosafos is saying it was never a gezeirah. The whole gezeirah never started. The gezeirah never started when you took out more than ten. That's what the... that's what you said, but that's not what Tosafos. Machlokes, you and Tosafos. Rashi says... Right. Right. But l'maaseh miyus? What happens when you brought it back? It was never yad karmalis, right? You brought it back more than ten, so it was never yad karmalis. That's Tosafos. How I read the Tosafos was, you brought it out, היית כרמלית, it was never yad karmalis, right? It wasn't the first place when you took it out, it wasn't. Yeah, but there was no yad karmalis l'gear hachzarah. The whole problem is mi... so it was never yad karmalis. Rashi says, no, there is yad karmalis. But the way it works is, is the karmalis put it into the makom patur. You see it from one reshus to another reshus, from the karmelis to makom patur, and from the makom patur to reshus hayachid. The way it's working, pashut, don't say it anymore. Right? Even though there was once a karmelis, but there was a hafsak in that karmelis. Tosafos says simple, there was no gezeirah. It never turned to karmelis in such a case. The whole problem of karmelis is to come aser... Nothing. What do you mean? They never asked the yad. According to Tosafos, they never asked the yad. The pashut Tosafos, they never asked the yad. They never asked the yad. There's nothing wrong. There's still an issur of yad, but the problem is there's a way in halacha there's no problem. Because halacha is you're allowed to take from one reshus to another reshus. The pshat in the Rashba, understanding, according to Tosafos it's pashut it never turned into a karmelis. Machlokes, according to the Rashba it turns into a karmelis, but then it's mutar because you're allowed to take from a karmelis to makom patur. You understand this Rashba? Who can explain this Rashba? Go ahead, explain. Talk to him. Tell him. Sit down. You're homework for today, your homework for today is this Rashba, and then we finish the shiur. We finish. We'll go on, we'll go to the next. Either kunta k'mishuhuncha, the next one. I'm not sure, eh? See myself here. I want you to notice that one of the two sefarim of the Rashba is the Gra, but it's not called a gamur, it's not called a karmelis gamur. The Gra is in the Rashba, open Rashba. But I want you to listen to—

Careful with this. What does the Rashba and Tosfos argue? Tosfos seems to learn, and why the gezeirah never applies. The Rashba learns the gezeirah applies, but the word is, it's anyway mutar in halacha, and he holds the teretz is very poshut. Tosfos learned, like I explained to you Friday, that the whole chumra is only there to make the issur, to make the issur. Yeah, to make it shus acher, they should make the issur. So once it's not assur, then what's the point saying it's a chumra? If you're allowed to bring it back l'maalah miyud, so even when I put ... it's still yachid. That's the issue, what shetos say. That's what I tried to explain to you. I tried to explain to you the Rashba learns that since it's for real chametz, you can't have real chametz ... So we said even in the dimyon, we won't say chametz because l'maaseh you can't even have the gezeirah of chametz. The Rashba is saying that if it's ... you can't have a chametz, and the teretz, because he learns it's a real chametz. Once he learns it's a real chametz, so he has to learn the ... doesn't exist. Doesn't exist. I'm saying, so why is Tosfos? Tosfos learns we can't give you the gezeirah of chametz without real chametz. That's the pshat Tosfos. Okay, that's the machlokes, the Tosfos and the Rashba. Okay, you hold like this. What? ... Do the sheetah. Okay, so let me just say what you have to do. Tomorrow. No, tomorrow. You'll soon see. Two inyanim. It's not going to have problems. Part in this part, and I'll show you how it's really all one thing. Okay? So what you have to do is the Rashba. You see the last question? Here. Ma hu mevuar b'Rashba, lama mutar... Biyud l'maalah miyud, יש לו פתח דרך מקום פטור, and the answer is, it works differently. It works that you took from a כרמלית to a מקום פטור, okay? And the last question is, why does it say two tefachim of the Rashba, like תשעה? That's your homework for tonight, okay? You give two. We spoke Tosafos, right? כאן למעלה מיוד, כאן למטה מיוד. L'maalah miyud, Rashi learns what? Mutar להחזיר. L'matah miyud, אסור להחזיר, okay? Comes along Tosafos and שואל, even to למעלה מיוד, לכתחילה נמי מותר. Yeah? L'maalah miyud, even לכתחילה is mutar. דהוה מקום פטור, it's a מקום פטור. Meaning, פשיטא, mai קא משמע לן? When the Gemara says כאן למעלה מיוד, meaning one of the ברייתות that says מותר is talking about למעלה מיוד. We wouldn't need a ברייתא for that, right? Does everybody understand the question? We wouldn't need a ברייתא to tell me, פשיטא, פשיטא. יש לומר, דקא משמע לן, אפילו הוציאו מתחילה דרך מטה, and then he wants to bring it back, למעלה מיוד it's mutar. So I tell you, if you look at the תוספות, the תוספות leaves it at that. No. כאן למטה, כאן למעלה, but if he did it למטה והכניס את זה למעלה, גם כן מותר, הוא מסביר, לא מסביר. What's the pshat in Tosafos? Kepshuto, you have to say in Tosafos that the קנס wasn't said over here. למטה מיוד, כאן אסור. That's if you're machzir. למטה מיוד, למעלה מיוד לא קנסו. So there's never an inyan of here of what? Oh, karmelit. But if you look, right, according to Tosafos, the teretz is l'maalah me'yud, there's never a karmelit. If I take it l'matah me'yud and I bring it back l'maalah me'yud, there's never. And m'meila, what's the pshat? There's no problem of karmelit. Oh, so why would I think, yeah? Because the Rashba says there is. If you take a look at the Rashba, the Rashba brings the same teretz of Tosafos, and he says a chiddush, because l'maaseh it's true that the yad is a karmelit, but it went from what? From a karmelit to a makom patur, and from makom patur ichnafta. That's how the Rashba answers Tosafos. So that's going to be question number one. Question number one is, what is the difference between Tosafos and Rashba? You don't have a sheet? You don't have one? How it works? No. He leaves it for my imagination.

Imagination to figure out why it's mutar. So what do I do? I say the most simplest pshat I could say, which is what? You know the reason why it's mutar? Because the knas of karmelis doesn't apply over here. Where you put it out, l'maaseh, the knas of karmelis applies. But where you did it l'maalah, that's pashut pshat, right? That's pashut pshat. The only reason why I speak this out is because you see the Rashba didn't learn like this, right? What's the pashut pshat in Tosfos? Since I did it l'maalah meyud, so there's no takanah of karmelis anymore, finished. Because l'maalah meyud is what? Makom patur. The Rashba says no. The Rashba says there is a karmelis here. But you have to keep in mind that a karmelis to a makom patur, a karmelis to bring it into a makom patur, that from a makom patur to bring it in is mutar. From a karmelis to a makom patur, you're right to say maskanah, you're right to say maskanah, but the difference between them is one learns there is karmelis here, and Tosfos learns there's no karmelis over here. The Rashba seems to learn that there's karmelis over here. Mashenken, Tosfos seems to tell us just the takanah doesn't apply over here. So we have to learn simply, why doesn't it apply over here? Because there's no karmelis. So I ask you, what is the explanation of the argument? Why are they arguing? You think they argue because they like to argue? You think they argue because they're sitting here in old simcha and everything that everybody says they have to argue about? No, that's not what it comes from. Obviously there's a different reason why they argue, and the reason must be like this. Rashba learned— That the takanah of karmelit is a real takanah, which means, is the karmelit is a real karmelit. And since the karmel is a real karmelit, what are you going to say? It's not, it is. I mean, it is. L'maaseh, there's a karmelit over here. L'mata mi'yud, there's karmelit. But the thing is, you can work it out. From a karmelit to a makom patur, from a makom patur to bring it in is mutar. Technically speaking, the moment the hand leaves the reshus hayachid, it became a karmelit. Tosafos learns it's a karmelit. If I put it into a makom patur, then it's not a karmelit. No. But if I put it into reshus harabim, it's a karmelit. Says Tosafos, says the Rashba, so then how does it work here? There has to be that a karmelit is giving it to a makom patur, and from a makom patur it's coming in. There's no problem with that, of course not. It's a karmelit, nothing. No, it's nothing, right? That's the whole thing. It's from a karmelit to a makom patur, makom patur to a karmelit, a karmelit to a makom patur. Mashenkein, Tosafos seems to say that the whole takanah of karmelit has only been gezeirah to what? To aser me to bring it back. The whole karmelit, the whole karmelit was a din to make it a reshus. Yeah? You see, whatever the kafsa, the dain, whatever it is, but the point is, it's only there l'gabei the chiyuv, if there's not going to be a chiyuv anyway. Karmelit, because it's not mamash all the halachos of karmelit. What I'm saying is, the diyuk of the Chof doesn't bother me, because we spoke, you can either give it a real din karmelit and still be called karmelit because it's not regular karmelit. They gave it a din karmelis, but, you know what I'm saying, either it's real, it's really there, and now Yad turns into a karmelis. So then if Yad turns into a karmelis, then it turns into a karmelis. That was the Rashba. So then you have to figure out a way how you're allowed to bring it back l'maalah meyud. I'm saying, but ma she'ein kein Tosafos. Tosafos learns that the whole karmelis is only l'gabei the issur of returning it. So you don't have to learn there's a karmelis over here. It's the difference. It never turned into a karmelis. What's the reason for it to turn into a karmelis? Rashba seems to say we have to say there's a karmelis, and we have to work out why it's mutar to be machzir l'maalah meyud if it's a karmelis. And the answer is because karmelis, makom patur; makom patur to where? To inside. Right. Mutar. That's the whole—Rashba wants to compare it to real karmelis, you understand?

I understand, but the point is, it's nogea to... And now this the Rashba asks kasha to the makom patur. That's his next kasha. What do you do with the fact that the makom patur is patur, not mutar? So it's reshuyos, Rabbanan, lav karmelis gamur. That's already where the Rashba comes into the picture. Okay. Lachein, Tosafos—Tosafos אומר that the whole karmelis has only been a gezeirah issur. The whole karmelis has only been a gezeirah issur. Now, you listening? This is pashut pshat in Tosafos and the Rashba, the argument between Tosafos and the Rashba. Now, if you take a look, I'll show you further that some of the Rishonim, you have to say like this, and I'll show you why I'm saying this. What? I thought we could start now. Lefi tirutz haGemara, right? אי דבעידי... You're giving paper, giving paper. I don't need my sheet. Look on together with me now. Lefi tirutz haGemara, אי דבעידי למטה מי'... Where do I see this yesod? I see this yesod in the following Gemara. Gemara says, אי דבעידי is למטה מי', right? אי דבעידי is still not under ten. Our girsa in the Gemara is, therefore what? Since it's למטה מי', right, ולאו ככרמלית דמיא. And it's not karmelis. ולאו ככרמלית דמיא. It's not domeh to karmelis. Meaning that the Gemara never was mechadesh halacha of karmelis. Chazal were never metaken karmelis. There's no such thing. The Ritva has a different girsa. ויש גורסים... U'karmelit damya. And the Ritva has a girsa, u'karmelit damya. But you have to change the Gemara. When it says, lav kikarmelit damya, you have to change it to u'karmelit damya. V'hakol inyan echad, ki karmelit b'miktzas, inami d'lav kikarmelit legamrei. You hear how he's playing the Ritva? One of the two stadim. The two stadim is not yes and no. The two stadim is a little bit and maybe. Again, in other words, when the Gemara says karmelit and not karmelit, pashut you learn it's a normal Gemara, and the Gemara is saying yes and no. The yes is yes and the no is no. Says the Ritva, no. The yes and the no are both the same. Kikarmelit is means b'miktzas. Lav kikarmelit legamrei. Both stadim is the same. Again, kikarmelit b'miktzas, and the other side is lav kikarmelit legamrei. But on both stadim it's a little bit. If the shaila is, is it only a little bit or no, there's no not at all, there's no sting. No. Or the pshat is, the lav kikarmelit legamrei, that a little bit it is. Hakol inyanecha, he says the Rashba, says the Ritva. Both stadim here are the same. That's right. The question is which side are we going on? It's a little bit, but it's not completely not. You want to know something? In business, this would be tremendous. Could you imagine a guy talking this in business? Hahen shlilohem, v'alav shliloam, miktzat ken u'miktzat lo lo. Lo, lo. You hear what it is? It's not completely. Again, when it says it's kikar melit, all it meant was karmelit, the miktzat. Tell me, you don't have to know this Ritva; it's unbelievable. Unbelievable. You know, when you read the Gemara, you would never know this. You would never know this. The Gemara says, Is kikar melit lav karmelit? The Gemara doesn't mean that. No such Gemara. If you came and said, Kikar lav karmelit, you are at merojene. No such thing. Yeah? Nazi? How does it go, a little bit crazy? How do you go, Nazi? You had a Nazi? How do you say a little bit kuku, a little bit? You're going to come to... I taught it to you. The Ritva tells me that the two stadim of the Gemara, hakol inyan echad. Hakol inyan echad. When it says karmelit, what does it mean? The miktzat. Inami d'lav karmelit.

We got it. What's the difference, right? Mihu, l'kamlei lekahefes bein demedina eina kikamlus ela mishum knas. L'maaseh, it's only l'gea l'gabei knas. Meaning, what I think the Ritva is saying is like this. The Ritva is saying, according to one girsa, there was never a question of yes karmelis, no karmelis. A yad is what it is. Miktzat keno, miktzat lo. Rashi, remember I told you Rashi, l'gabei lo? Remember I spoke to you in Rashi? What's the pshat it's kikarmelit? Yes, it's a miktzat karmelit. That's I explained to you, it's not a mamash karmelit. Like I said, you know, it's not karmelit. It's like a din. How do you work with it? A din. So that's the whole shaila over here. The shaila of the sugya is never לגבי karmelit דאורייתא. The shaila of the sugya was what halachos are we going to give it, and that's why the girsa is, karmelis miyut, and karmelis miyut, v'karmelit damya. Don't come and be poshut, it's not, it is a karmelit. Yad always is what it is. What is the Ritva trying to say? הן לחיוב and הן לפטור, the karmelit exists. What it is is what it is. The Gemara never came and just made up that it's a karmelit. The Gemara said it is a karmelit, but since it's only b'miktzat, the question is how are we to deal with this miktzat karmelit, okay? So I believe that this is the makor for it. It has components. Yes, yes, יש חלקים של כרמלית. He says, a lo shuta rabim, a lo shuta yachid. It's a reshus bifnei atzmo. Exactly where I'm going. We're not holding it yet. Chochmah l'kul has to do this sugya, and it has to do this sugya. That's right. In reshuyos, hakol kamus, and again, that's the whole yesod of kamus. Lo zeh v'lo zeh, the baraisa, lo zeh v'lo zeh. Nagid kacha: ma zeh reshus hayachid? Reshus hayachid. Ma zeh reshus harabim? Reshus harabim. Ma zeh karmelis? Lo zeh v'lo zeh. Lo pirush lo zeh v'lo zeh, ela lo zeh v'lo zeh mikzat v'lo zeh v'lo zeh legamrei. Sound familiar? Exactly what I told you Rashi. Exactly how I learned Rashi. Good. Because it's not. It's not a question of safek. It's not a safek in din. The metzius, it's a question of what the metzius is. I mean, it has mikzat zeh and mikzat zeh. Nagid lecha kacha, nagid lecha kacha. Dugma, okay? Mi sheyesh lo... safek muzarchar over the keiva, ma omrim bo? No. Tumtum. Tumtum. Lo yedi ma zeh. Good. Lo yedi ma zeh. Im yesh mikzat zeh v'mikzat zeh, zeh lo tumtum, lo safek ma zeh, ela zeh shneihem. Androgynous. Yesh lo din shel shnayim. The bria bifnei atzmah. That's this yad. Yad is a very strange thing. It's like a karmelis. Ma zeh mikzat u'mikzat. Now, this is the Ritva, and this is how I explained to you the machlokes, the Rashba and the Tosfos. Now we will see the next line. So again, question number one: lefi tiyuvta Gemara, i d'meilmatim yud, heim garsinan k'truma dam garsinan, k'truma dal, אי ריטבא ור"ן, and the answer is... Ayin ritvah, that some people are gores inami; it can be gores. Ki karmelis, and the pshat is because it doesn't make a difference. It's always karmelis. Whether chiyuv, whether patur, whether you're allowed, whether you're not allowed, this is the Ritva holds like the Ran, but the metzius is there. I'll tell you, ayin Ritva. Now, mahu biur? Yad is karmel. Yad is, not the—miktzas, that exists. That will always exist. We never held that a patur is karmelis. The question is, what halachos are we going to give this karmelis? That's the Ran is saying. The Ran is the same as the Ritva, the same thing. Now, even on the bottom he quotes you the Ran. Okay, now, mahu—the Ran is the same as the Ritva. He brings it down on the bottom, it's the Ran, okay, if you want to look, it's the shitah mekubetzes laRan. Now, mahu biur shtei gefasim, v'gasei karmelis... and that's how I just explained to you. Do we learn that it's always a karmelis?

And the shayla is, is it mamish a karmelit, or it's only for the takanah karmelit, to make the heter a reshus to the whole business, right? No, you can't. There's no heter. Only when they assered it, you have a karmelit. The whole karmelit is only to asser it, that's all. You can't be matir l'hachshir and it's a karmelit. There's no such thing. Because according to them, there's no real karmelit here. It's a takanah in order to asser, because they don't hold of that. They don't hold that makes a karmelit. That's not a karmelit. No. Kima sheyesh shneihem, as chachamim omru sheyesh karmelit. L'achshav, hayad hu ozozeh. Right, oh, yad is all karmelit or no karmelit. I'm not thinking, what's a mikzat, mikzat, because of that, yeah? ... I tell him, ... understand. I can't, I don't. Yad, yad lo sneam. Yad is a mikzat karmelit. ... That's what they're saying. That's a safek in the Gemara. It's a safek in the Gemara. ... nachlun l'din karmelit, lo nachlun l'din karmelit, yes? Harishonim she'ualim. The what? The second what? Second question? Well, the ... No, the Rashba learns that there's always, no. Second girsa, second girsa is always. No, no, the second girsa is the Rashba. The in nami of the Ritva is the Rashba. That the thing is always there, no? No, the thing is there. The question is, what's the ... halachos? First case is Tosafos. We don't know this who says a karmelit here, because according to the Rashba, no matter what, even if you're not chayav, there's always a karmelit. L'ma'alah miyud, where you're not chayav to bring it back, we still have to work with din karmelis. Thanks for the point. You see, the way he learns is even if you're patur, you see that even when you're patur it's called a karmelis. It must be when it says l'ma'alah miyud, it didn't change from the fact that it still be a karmelis. L'ma'alah miyud, l'maatah miyud is still karmelis. They're both still called a karmelis. I mean, obviously there was a regular din karmelis here. That's what the Rishonim are saying. There was always karmelis here. The only thing is, regardless of karmelis, you're still a question of chayav or patur. Okay, now, the Rashi and the Rishonim say the same thing. Now, Harishonim sho'alim, d'l'ma'alah miyud peshita, ma nafka mina bein echser tois machsha she'eilah u'vein echser ribua machsha she'eilah? If you notice, they seem, when you read it quickly, they seem to ask the same question. Peshita l'ma'alah miyud, but they're talking about two different cases. I don't know if you realize. If you look carefully, you'll notice they're talking about two different things. What's Tosafos's peshita? What's the case of peshita in Tosafos? L'ma'alah miyud. No, yeah, I understand l'ma'alah miyud, but what? Read, nu. Mutar lehai... How does the Ritva say to ask the question? Mutar... I don't understand why nobody speaks about it. Plus the silence. When you start reading it, it sounds like the same question. Tosafos asks the question. All I'm pointing out is that Tosafos asks the question why mutar... peshita, and the Ritva says mutar... peshita. First hear the question before everybody becomes your baran kafta. Everybody decides they're a baran kafta. You hear a question from a rebbi and everybody in the yeshiva gives terutz. First hear the question. What's the question? Tosafos seems to ask the kasha, l'maalah miyud, mutar l'hotziah, and there is that, l'maalah miyud mutar l'hachzirah. Ah, let me... You don't know the difference in metzius? No, I know what to do. Right, you obviously do know. You want to know why there should be a difference. That's the question.

One question. Ah, you want to know here. One person wants to know, one person wants to know why you're allowed to put your hat on, and the other one wants to know why you put your hat off. You don't know the difference between the two questions? You don't see the difference between the two questions. Why is one bothered by the mutar l'hotziah, one's bothered by the mutar l'hachzirah? Question, no? Same question, but one is matgis nekudah zo, and one is matgis nekudah zo. What's the answer? Give up, give up. You agree with him that what? What? What were you running with? Yeah? Thelamad miyut pshita. Ma nafka mina bein ech shetoses machshasheilah l'bein ech sheyachzir? The answer is, Tosafos asks about hotziah, and Ritva asks about lachzirah. Okay. What's the nafka mina? I'll play what I think the nafka mina is, like this. If you learn—huh? No, no, no, no, no, no. If you learn that the takanah of karmelit was only k'dei l'esor et ha... et hachnasah, right? So then the whole she'eilah of karmelit is only b'geder the chazarah. If you learn that the whole karmelit was created in the first place only to aser the chazarah, right, that's the whole karmelit. It's not a real karmelit anyway. So then the she'eilah is mau lachzirah, so then that becomes the whole she'eilah. Here's my question. Leitzi muta, you took it out. The problem is you took it out. Now what? Is it a karmelit, but again, l'hachzir? That's the question. But if you learn it was always a karmelit, so then l'hotzi becomes the same problem, then l'hachzir, right? If you learn that it's a real karmelit, then whatever l'hachzir is in l'hotzi becomes the same problem, right? I'll tell you. Tosafos's kasha of l'hotzi, I would have said, I would have said that Tosafos is learning that b'etzem is a problem of karmelit. The thing is, it doesn't fit into what we're saying. That's what I'm trying to bring out. If we would have learned, if I would learn, that the takanah is only a takanah b'neged, so l'hachzir rotzim le'esor את זה, echosrim את זה. Notim לזה דין karmelit, so ma she'ein lachzir, lo lachzir. That's the whole question. And that's b'emet what the lashon of the Gemara. If you notice, what was the lashon of the Gemara? The lashon of the Gemara is like this: Vayabaye. What was Abaye's question? Mi kansu Rabbanan la'durei l'gabei olai. We never discussed what? We always discussed the l'hadurei. Pshat? I'm saying, but this is l'choira. All I'm saying is like this, that I understood that the sugya is haGemara, from the Gemara. The Gemara is mashma: l'hadurei, olai l'hadurei. How can we never discuss l'hotzi in the first place? Why don't we discuss, ha'im mutar l'hotzi? That's a separate question, right? Why can't we ask a question, ha'im mutar lihotzi? So pashut you could learn, hotzi is much worse. Why? Because once you hotzi, then you might always put it down, and so it becomes like a chatzi melachah. And the shaila of the Gemara is maybe better to let him bring it back in already. So the shaila, the Gemara could have been only l'hadurei, because it's much better than l'hotzi. Meaning, if l'hadurei will be aser, pshita, l'hotzi will be aser. That's why I learn pashut pshat in the Gemara. Right? What does the Gemara ask? The Gemara is asking if I'm allowed to put my hand out or if I'm allowed to bring my hand back in. No. L'hachzir, right? Why? Later on in the Gemara, we understand why the Gemara speaks about l'hachzir, because whether he took it out, he took it out erev Shabbos. Then I understand why by Abaye. But in the Gemara before Erev Shabbos, why would the Gemara speak about l'hachzir? The teretz is because l'hachzir is much worse, much better than l'hotzi, right? L'hotzi, you might still finish off the whole melacha. Those l'hachzir is aser kol shekein l'hotzi, right? Because why is l'hachzir aser? Because you will hotzi it, right? So the hotzi zicher can't be mutar. That would be pashut pshat in the Gemara. That's the simple pshat.

Or maybe I would say no. Maybe the whole suffix of the Gemara was only by Avrom tells Roshiva, only by... That was the whole shaila about Lehaitzi. It was never a shaila about lehotzi. Why? Because it's not a real karmelis anyway. There's nothing here anyway. What's the question? What? The yad is never really a karmelis anyway, right? So it has to become a karmelis. That's the question. So the whole thing is, you can't—when the moment it turns out, it already happened. If the pshat is it's a real karmelis, so then you can come and question lehotzi just like lehachnis. But if it has to become a karmelis, so the whole question is only afterwards, after it became a karmelis, mau ladurei. That's what I think the pshat is. Very good, huh? Because you're awake, telling me. Avrom tells Roshiva, I don't say good; it's not good, it means beautiful, no? Pashut, you know what it is? It's simple pshat in the Gemara. Because the Ritva learned that the whole karmelis that in the first place is mau ladurei. The whole karmelis—the Gemara's question was mau ladurei. Limaskana, the Gemara, I understand the mau ladurei. You know why? Because it's talking about Erev Shabbos. The hotzi was anyway b'heter. But in the havamina of the Gemara, what was the mau ladurei? Understood the Ritva, because that's the whole takanah. The takanah is only to bring it back in issur. But lehotzi was never a problem. Or it's either always, or it's never a problem. So I'm explaining to you why was it never a problem, because it turns into a karmelis. Since it turns into a karmelis, the lehotzi—huh? That's only after lehotzi. That's pshat Ritva, because according to Ritva it becomes... But sheke, according to Tosfos it is. So if it is, then the problem of l'hotzi is the same problem of b'hafch. Right, which is a question, which is a question. That's the question I'm saying. Yes. The Ritva ... l'kushya now. So the Ritva gives different terutzim than Tosfos. Tosfos gives the teretz, what, top and bottom, right? He took it out on the bottom and he put it up to the top. The Ritva gives different terutzim. Now who took away my Ritva? Here, here, here. The ... gufa ka mashma lan, she'ein avir reshus harabim ela ad asarah. To teach me that the avir reshus harabim is only till ten, meaning that's where he got it from. The pshat—well, what are you saying, that once it's higher than ten it's a makom patur? Ha-gufa is what the braisa is trying to teach me. So now, in the end, the Ritva—what is he saying exactly? That is the makor for the halacha. Yeah, is that true? That's what we know, avir—I mean, there's no machlokes about avir reshus harabim. His answer is that, what are you saying, how do you know it's higher than ten, right? Says the Ritva, says the Tosfos, peshita, it's mutar if it's higher than ten, it's a makom patur. This is where we know it from, that this, that you're allowed to take out l'maalah me'asarah, you see that it's higher than— that's what he says. But I'm saying this is where the braisa is teaching us. The Ritva says like this: Yesh lomar, d'hi gufa ka mashma lan, she'ein avir reshus harabim ela ad asarah. That's where we learn it from. This is what the Mish—this is what it's teaching us. What's your question? Peshita, of course it's mutar. Yeah, that's where we know it from. I mean, I know you don't say it's a makor, but this is what it's trying to teach me. Try to understand. This is the mekor for aver shesurah. This is Mishnayos about it. Yeah, this is Mishnayos. ... this braisa with... I think he's saying something else. I think what the Ritva is saying is like this. When we say that the yad is a karmelis, right, but l'maalah miyud it can't turn into a karmelis, right? What's the reason why l'maalah miyud it can't turn into a karmelis? Oh, I think this is what he's trying to say. It's trying to teach me that l'maalah miyud is a makom patur, meaning it takes on a reshus bifnei atzmoi, that you can't make a karmelis out of it. That's what he means to say. Since it's a makom patur, that's Mishnayos. That's a Mishnah. I don't need here a braisa.

What the Ritva means to say is, it's like you can't turn into a karmelis. That's what it means. Not that it's obvious. It's a makom patur to the extent that in our sugya, that we want to make it a karmelis, it's not going to turn into a karmelis. That's what he means. Is it a turner into a ... lose the status of ...? Exactly. If it is below ... he brings it up and loses the status. So that's a question between the Tosafos and the Rashba. Right, so that's the question we have to still deal with. We're not clear in Tosafos yet. One thing we're clear about is that Tosafos learns that for some reason it's not a karmelis when you pick it up, and the Rashba learns it will still remain a karmelis, but it's a karmelis to a makom patur. Now, what I'm trying to say is what the Ritva means to say over here is not teaching me that an av yud l'maalah miyud is a makom patur. That's a Mishnah. That's Gemaras later. That I don't need. What he's trying to say is it's a makom patur legabei this halachah of karmelis, that it can't turn into a karmelis. It can't become a karmelis. And that's that. So my question to you is, why is Tosafos not want to learn like this? It's a very nice teretz. Why is Tosafos not this? Why does he disagree with the Ritva? Maybe what? It's not a real karmelis. Once you learn it's not a real karmelis, you can do it in a makom patur also. How do I explain to you the Rashba? Remember the Rashba learns that it can't become a karmelis inside the house. Why? Because l'maalah miyud, even inside the house, what happens? It's a reshus hayachid, right? So b'metzius it can't turn in. But if you learn that the knas... I explained to you that it could turn into a... because it's not anyway. That's the shakla v'tarya. Tosafos, like I'm explaining to you, is learning now that the pshat is that it's not a real karmelis, on the side that it's not a real karmelis, Tosafos is saying, Ah, so why don't you talk about this? Then I don't see what could be the chiddush of Avraham. What's the... again? It's not a real karmelis anyway. According—if you learn in the Ritva, if you learn that it's a karmelis itself, to teach me this yesod, that a karmelis cannot turn into this makom patur. It's not anyway, so then what is he teaching me? There's no chiddush. It's mutar. There's no karmelis. What's the shaylah? And that's the shakla v'tarya. Yeah, you got it? This is not the case of the braisa, right? So I'm telling you, so what are you—so the Ritva can't come and start waking up, tell me this is where we learn it from, right? Karmelis. That's what I'm telling you. I'm showing you pashut shot in the Ritva. You can't come and say that the Ritva meant that from here we learn it out, because it's not even true. L'maaseh, the Gemara is talking about l'maata me'yud also. L'maaseh, both cases are l'maata me'yud. So then the question is, what is the Ritva mean? The Ritva means to tell me a chiddush that it's avir reshus harabim, it's makom patur, and l'gabei my hand becoming a karmelis. Okay, so I'm asking you, what's the difference? Why does Tosafos not want to learn like this? Why does Tosafos not give this teretz? And the answer is very simple, because Tosafos obviously learned that it could become a karmelis and a makom patur. That's not the problem. Okay, not like the Rashba. The Rashba learned—right, like the Rashba... Exactly, exactly. Since it could go both ways, and mainly you don't have a raya anymore that the fact that it comes inside. Who's—yeah, what are you proving? What do you want? What are you proving? It's shayach to be that it's l'maalah miyud and it still turns into a karmelis. That's tosfos, huh? You don't see it? Mainly it's not a chiddush. It's not a chiddush. Okay, so this is—right. So what do you get if you take a look at the bottom of the Ritva, he asks an interesting she'eilah: lo nizba'er b'dvarav, you hear, b'divrei Rabbeinu, אי שויל לחתחילה נמי. When we say l'maalah miyud, is it become mutar l'chatchilah or not? What's the lashon? The lashon is, l'chatchilah נמי מותר, מעל להדורי. What's the nafka mina? Very good. You see? If you learn—

That the makom patur causes that the karmelit can be a karmelit, then it becomes mutar even lechatchila. There's nothing. There's no problem over here. If you learn that the karmelit loses its status when it's l'maalah me'asarah, then it becomes mutar lechatchila. I'm telling you, but obviously, and I'm going to show you this at the end of the shiur. That's right. And for some reason, the Ritva doesn't speak about the Gemaras. Notice that the Rashba asks on Tosfos all the Gemaras. The Ritva never asks these Gemaras. The Ritva never asks these Gemaras. The Ritva never asks these Gemaras. If you take a look clearly, the Rashba brings Tosfos, and then he starts saying, What do you do with the Gemaras of makom patur? The Ritva obviously never was worried about these Gemaras. And you know what the answer is? Very poshut. If you learn that the karmelit is finished, the karmelit is over, right? There's no karmelit over here, then what happened was, to be motzi it, what you're doing is you're being motzi to a makom patur, without even the hanacha in a makom patur. That's what I want to show you. You didn't do anything. Your mamish didn't do anything, because you didn't take it into a makom patur, not even through a makom patur, not even to a makom patur, and not even to a karmelis in a makom patur. But you just took it out. You didn't bring it, whatever, like this. Whatever. So it comes out that as long as this is not a karmelis, there's no problem here. Huh? I'm saying to you, but if you hold, if you hold that through a makom patur becomes aser, right? Through a makom patur becomes aser, so l'maaseh you can't bring it into the makom patur, right? Because you're now going through this makom patur. So what's the halacha? The halacha is, since l'maaseh it's not a karmelis, that's not proof. That's the case of the Rashba's kasha. What was the Rashba's kasha? Derech makom patur is always aser. That's the Rashba's kasha. And I'm showing you, if you look clearly, the Ritva never speaks about all this. The Ritva's not bothered by this, and the Teretz is very pashut, because he let you never put it down anyway. The Ritva learns like the Eliyah Rabbah, that he says you never pass through it and put it down. You stuck it, I'm stuck it back, and that's what the Yoreh Abba says yesterday. It's never a she'eilah, right? Where does the she'eilah become? Only if it turns into a karmelis. That's the only time it becomes a she'eilah. Has the Ritva never turned into a karmelis because l'maalah me'yud. Right? No, I'm telling you not like that. I'm telling you that's the Ritva's teretz, that l'maalah me'yud it can't be a karmelis. I'm trying to tell you, ma she'ein kein Tosafos. Tosafos never—let's say Tosafos never learned it's a real karmelis, right? If you learn in Tosafos— No, so anyway you could have put it in a makom patur. No, so you could have been a karmelis even in a makom patur. Tosafos, according to Tosafos, it still could be, and you're getting confused about it here. Let's start over. You ready? Sit down. I started off like that. I'm trying to tell you that, l'choira, in the second girsa—again, I'm not saying the Ritva; the Ritva is two girsaos. I'm not telling you what the Ritva himself held. The Ritva brings two girsaos, and the difference between the two girsaos is: is it always a karmelis or it's not always a karmelis? Then I say to you like this: let's see how Tosafos and Ritva argue about the question. Ritva learns the question is to bring it back, while Tosafos learns the question is to take it out. I said the only way we can explain the difference between the Ritva and the—there's only one way to do it. According to the Ritva, the whole problem is to bring it back, and according to Rashba, according to Tosafos, the problem is to take it out. So I ask you, what's the difference? If you learn it's a real karmelis anyway, then I understand. Don't—like, leave the girsaos alone. The girsa is two sheets, okay? If you learn like this, that's shat in Tosafos, and then that it's always a karmelis, so it's also like tzi'ona. The same problem is like tzi'ona. But if you learn that it's only takanah anyway, so...

The Shailah is, you're allowed to bring it back. That's pashut pshat in the sugya. Are you allowed to bring it back? That's the whole question. Yeah, we don't care about the hekdesh, so you're never meniach anywhere. Hekdesh sheyachid, there's nothing always. A different chatzer. You have to have it to a different chatzer. There has to have some ma'aseh over here, melachah. And the question is derech. Are you with me here or you're lost? So far, so good, right? Okay. Now, comes along the Ritva and he gives a teretz that we're learning from here that avir reshus harabim is such a real strong makom patur that you can't even make a karmelis out of it. That's what the Ritva means, the way we explained the Ritva. That's what the Ritva is trying to say, that this is what the... that's the chiddush, that you can't become a karmelis. Exactly. That's where I'm getting to. That the metzius is—I'm explaining to you what the chiddush is, you'll soon see what the chiddush is. According to this teretz, that if the metzius, it can't be a karmelis, Tosafos's teretz doesn't make any sense. Tosafos's teretz and the Ritva's first teretz—you know what they're arguing? This point. The Ritva's first teretz is here—move away, I want to have Tal's yeshiva to listen. Tal's yeshiva, you listening? According to the first teretz of the Ritva, what happens? This is where we learn out that it can turn into a karmelis, right? You know what they're arguing? Very simple. Because it can't be a karmelis once it's a makom patur. You know what the first teretz is saying different than the second teretz? It doesn't work that you're allowed to bring it up l'maalah meyud. You know why? Because— Mah nafshach, it's not pshat they went from a karmelis to a makom patur. The karmelis went up and disappeared. Right, that's what I was supposed to be over there. Oh, so that's what I'm trying to tell you. That's what I'm trying to tell you. When Tosafos gives a teretz that it's mutar— No. No. Who says it works that way? If you learn, if you learn that you have a heter because the karmelis is taking it into the makom patur, then the pshat is you have a heter with the karmelis, right? That's— okay, now I see everybody's confused. The teretz is that the karmelis in a makom patur can never be. It can't exist. That's the teretz of the Ritva, right? This Tosafos disagrees with. This Tosafos tells us that the karmelis could be, because it's not a real karmelis anyway. Whatever it is, whatever this karmelis is, and it could be in the same way it could be in the— where? In the reshus harabim l'maalah me'yud, it could be in the reshus hayachid. Like we said from the Rishonim, some Rishonim learn that the sugya's hagemara is that the karmelis becomes yad karmelis in and out. Meaning it's not only for the baal habayis sticking his hand out, but for the ani sticking his hand in. Says the Rashba, no, no, no, no, no. A karmelis can't be in the reshus hayachid, because it's also a real karmelis, right? Yes, yes. And that's why showing the Rashba, he holds a real karmelis. Okay. Tosafos is learning it's not a real karmelis. So what kind of teretz— what's this teretz? What are you talking about? L'maalah me'yud? Technically you can have it l'maalah me'yud also. Yeah. Okay. While the Ritva is giving a teretz, no, no, no, no, no. It can't be l'maalah me'yud. She's saying, very good. You know why? Because l'maaseh, it's no different than the Rashba's case inside. You can't have it l'maalah miyud. This is the machlokes Tosafos and the Riva. Now, the...