Tefillah B’Tzibbur: Ten Mispallelim, Rov Minyan, and Beginning Together

Transcript

And the mishburah, so you ready? Okay, let's go. We started the sugya, minyan and not minyan, how much is a minyan, ten, six, tefillah b'lachash, shliach tzibur, complicated controversial topics which come up all the time. So we said we began with a Mishnah Berurah, siman tzadik sif katan chaf-ches. You have to know this Mishnah Berurah klar. Mishnah Berurah says what's called tefillah b'tzibur: עשרה גדולים ביחד. Who is he quoting? Chayei Adam. Therefore you have to come on time to shul. Good. The shaylah is that in Shulchan Aruch, siman samach-tes, it says clearly for inyanei kedushah it's good enough to have vav. And the Mishnah Berurah is masbir why vav, because vav is called rov, and therefore it's like a tzibur gama. So this is the kasha. What do we do? Good, good. This becomes the sugya. So basically the shaylah is, is siman tzadik the ikar, and we have to work around siman samach-tes to explain it, or vice versa, which means siman samach-tes is the halacha and maybe tzadik is just l'hidur, l'chumra, however you want to say it. The yeshiva Zatzal, Nigus Moshe, chelek aleph, siman chaf-ches, says clearly that the ikar is siman tzadik. Hagam his wording is not very strong. You saw the teshuvah, like he's mishtapek, he goes back, a few of them, you saw like he's back and forth and up, right? You saw? Okay, the leshonos are up is very vague, and it's like it doesn't come out with a stark hachraah. And I was going to call Reb David. First I was going to call Reb Belsky today. Reb Belsky is not well. His wife told me he can't be bothered today; he's very sick. So I was going to call Reb David. I couldn't reach him, so whatever, by tomorrow I should have it. I want to know if the Rosh Yeshiva's tzal in empty J was makpid on it. I wouldn't be surprised if not. I wouldn't be surprised. You know, people have to go to work. It's not a very strong lashon from the Rosh Yeshiva's tzal, not a very strong lashon. Be'ezras Hashem tomorrow I'll clarify this. Al kol panim, he takes on that Tzemach Tzedek is the ikar, and Samach Tes, he explains, is unique. What's unique about it? It's only for devarim shebikedushah. But ein hachanami, for shliach tzibbur, Shemoneh Esrei, tefillah b'tzibbur, you taka need ten people. He discusses over there about davening b'lachash in order to come—I mean, that's what the Mishnah Berurah is talking about—davening b'lachash in order to come to say Chazaras HaShatz. So you have to say this pshat, that the Rosh Yeshiva meant that there's a special maila in tefillah b'tzibur to be mechayev Chazaras HaShatz, and for that it's enough six. I mean, if it's devarim shebikedushah, so let him just say kedushah. What do you want? Just like there's four people, what do you do? You just get up and say Shemoneh Esrei with the heicha kedushah, right? So why if there's six people—I thought six people, according to Rosh Yeshiva, is not a—right? Tzemach Tzedek is ikar, and it's not called tefillah b'tzibur. Teretz is it's enough of a tefillah b'tzibur to mechayev Chazaras HaShatz. I didn't understand it. We spoke out yesterday, ma nafshach. I mean, either it is or it's not. I don't know what's this middle ground. The Rebbetzin, she said it over gevaldig, very, very... I don't know the way you hacked it up, gevaldik. Where does it come from? Who made this up? ... Tefillah b'tzibbur means ten people. So what, now there's a new zach, tefillah b'tzibbur, ... What is that? Said it over perfect. You hit what I wanted last night. You took the words right out of my mouth, as they say. Okay? Achveis nisht. Mistama, if you learned the sugya, lomdish, you have to work on the sugya a little bit more. But that's what it says, that there's three hagdaros. For inyanei kedushah, all you need is ten people just to get up and say it. For inyanim of chazaras hashatz, six is good enough to make the chazaras hashatz, right? So in other words, kedushah, even if you don't have six people, right? Even if you have only four people. Ah, ... thank you for coming, because it's shein, we learned the whole sugya tonight. Can I have one minute of chazarah? He deserves a one-minute chazarah. If you do the thing of kedushah right away, do the people—does everyone have to stay till they finish? That's right, or the people are down there, they just— They disappear. They're done. Yeah, vadei, after kedushah they're done. They're done. Okay, you'll come. We have a lot of work to do, so come tonight. Let's go. Tonight we're gonna shoot. Let's go. You have the sefarim. I'm not even gonna quote the—

This farm inside. You guys sit there with this farm. Let's go. Okay. Is a minyan ten? Is a minyan six? Is a minyan four? Do yeshiva olam have a different type of minyan than balabatim? Is that what's going on here? Yeah. It almost never happens, like a rare case. Work ahead of me. Okay, so what do we have? We have like this, and the Siman Tzadik, it says clearly you need ten people. What? Asarah gedolim b'yachad, b'yachad, together. You know that by the end of today's shiur, I'm going to come out that you don't— What do you need? It's true. It's about this, but all right, we'll talk about it later. It's fine. Reb Yehuda Tzadik, anything you do is fine. Sometimes. One day I'll tell you my relationship with Yudi. We're classmates and roommates, and really good friends, and we have tremendous harachah for each other. He's a real tzaddik. Okay. He doesn't know me yet. After all this time. Still say the same jokes than when we were in yeshiva. That's because Avi was in the dorms. We were in the dorms together. Kids are... So Siman Tzadik, it says clearly, sif katan chaf-ches, that you're supposed to have ten people, gedolim b'yachad. Maaseh in Siman Samech-tes says that for kedushah, yotzei, like all these type of things, all you need is six. Mishnah Berurah says because it's rov minyan. So the kashya is which one is l'halachah? Ten people is the minyan, or is the minyan six, which turns into rov? This is a machlokes haposkim how to learn. Rishiva zatzal in Igros Moshe, chelek aleph siman chaf-ches, learns that siman tzadik is the ikar. Hagah maisteh, it's not very stark l'shonos, and I wouldn't be surprised if an MTJ he was meikel for the balabatim. I'm going to speak to Reb David. I was trying to reach Reb David today. I'm going to try Reb Elsky; he's not well, but Reb David I'm going to reach him tomorrow. Hakoponim, siman tzaddik is the ikur, siman samech tes only for dvarim shebikdusha. I, it's talking about chazaras hashatz and you're davening b'lacha, so just get up and say chazaras hashatz, like by four people. So obviously there's such a thing called tefilas hatzibur enough to make a chazaras hashatz with six. Again, I don't know where that comes from, ma nafshach. If tefilah b'tzibur is ten, so it's ten. So what's this middle road over here, middle ground, that it's enough to make a tefilas hatzibur that you should have to make chazaras hashatz? Okay. I don't know, that's the shaylah. That's the shaylah. Is he saying a chiddush, that there's a certain halacha called rov tzibur, and it's enough to be called tefilas hatzibur to make a chazaras hashatz? I don't know where it comes from, ma nafshach. If you hold that siman tzaddik is the ikur and that's called tefilas hatzibur, so what is this new halacha? Ela mai, because all you need is ten people standing there for kedusha, so say kedusha. What's the chazaras hashatz? The way the Mishnah Berurah means is that when you need a shiur, when there's a shiur you need ten people, then there's no rov. When you don't need a shiur, when it's just you need a minyan, you need a ten, then just get up. Then just get up. Kedusha, there's no din tzibur, so then just get up and say kedusha. What do you want? Just get up and say kedusha. But chazaras hashatz, you need a tzibur. Again, the chazaras hashatz means you do need a tzibur, so then you do need something. But you don't need a—it's not mamash the tzibur that you need, that... So where does that come from, ma nafshach? If it's not the real tzibur that we always call tefilas hatzibur, then what is it? It's a new thing. So that's the question, where it comes from. It's a new halacha, that there's such a thing called a tzibur, which is not a real tzibur, but it's enough for chazaras hashatz. Okay. Minchas Yitzchak and all the acharonim, especially Chassidishe olam, they all held that siman samech tes is the ikur. I, the Mishnah Berurah in siman tzaddik... Slichatchila, it's the right thing to do, and we medayik that then all the Mishnah Berurah says is you should come on time to make sure that you daven with the tzibur. It doesn't say anything that you're not yotzei, or that you have to go to a different shul in case they don't have ten people davening. It doesn't say that. It just, v'lachein, he warns, why didn't he just say you're not yotzei? Why didn't he say that you shouldn't go to a shul that has small minyanim? Mashma that it's more than that. Okay. L'maaseh, how do you pasken? You have over here the Moisha on one hand, you have here the other gedolim, the Chassid... so what's l'maaseh? What do you do? So let's discuss this, rabosai, okay? I'm going to show you how the truth is, if you learn through Rav Moshe's teshuvos, Rav Moshe might be chomer on the ten; he's meikel on everything else around the minyan that technically you can never lose tefillah b'tzibur. And I'll explain to you why. Rav Moshe, like I told you, not so shtark. He says, he declares, he has teshuvos, many of the teshuvos that l'choira it should be in the...

Okay. Now this that they bring from the Brisker Rav, that's the famous thing that they quote the Brisker Rav. I can't believe that Reb Pameranchik, the talmid of the Brisker Rav, wrote a whole shtickel klor not like the Brisker Rav. It's very hard to mekabel that. I mean, he was like one of the big talmidim. They say it over. I think Rav Sternbuch brings in the moadim u'zmanim that the Brisker Rav held like that. ... like a Remaisha, like you need ten people. Now, Reb Shlomo Zalman, I told you, also says you should have ten people, okay? Amud samech gimmel, okay? Ois ches. Yeah. Shishim mispallim — who's reading? Reb Yehuda, you're the guest, go ahead. Shishim mispallim, ches, let's go. Ches, ches, ches, ches. Shishim mispallim shetzrichim ma macherim shekvar hispallu, vashmonas aminyan, af al pi she'omrim Kaddish u'kedushah, ein lahem mailos tefillah b'tzibur ad sheyihyu asarah mispallim. So Shlomo Zalman's paskening who? Like Remaisha, all right? Klor. There's a little bit of a disclaimer. What does he say over there? He says it's not kedai to ruin a minyan because of that. Go ahead, read it. Read the next line. Ulam af al pi kein, ra'ui l'adam lachashov haminyan. In other words, let's say you're in a place, the oilam doesn't daven with you. It's reish nun, siman samech gimmel, ois ches. You should know it's kedai to keep this in your pocket because, you know, the oilam comes in, oh, ten people... Shlomo Zalman said don't ruin a minyan because of that. Don't run to other shuls, by the way. And he says even if it happens — he says even if it happens a few times. Yeah, yeah. You're one of the six that didn't daven yet. You'll just wait for another minyan. You don't have six anymore; you only have five. Be part of the six. Yeah, six. It's a ma'ardik Reb Shlomo Zalman. The other five don't have an eitzah. In other words, even if you have an eitzah, I think that's a mashma. Even if you have an eitzah, you could go to another shul. No, you can't. Don't. Don't. Don't. ... the other guy has work to do. What do you want from them? Start ruining their lives? I mean, that's it. Help them out the minyan, that's all. Shulchan says it’s an often a psak, you know. ... So what’s the teretz? He says a vort. He says a vort. His vort is because the ma'alah of helping a Yid is not as... The lashon is because to help a Yid, to help Yidden, is more important than... I want to say this originally. Remember I told you that you see the ... But more than just ... He doesn’t say that, but he doesn’t say it though. He says a lashon that the ma'alah of helping another Yid is more important. He says it like that? That’s his lashon. Really? It’s a ma'alah to ... but only ... because of. But how’s he helping him? How’s he helping? Because the poor guy has ... The teretz is it’s something. That’s not ... ... you have something. Every rav has to keep this ... No, ... you can do anyway. ... you can do anyway. With six. That we learned. Even the ... says. That’s what the ... says. That’s what we were mechadesh, that even if you hold you need ten, yeah, because that’s a din of ma'alah ... Look it up. Look it up quickly. Look, ... ois ches. Learned the klal. Okay. Okay, now, this, rabosai, is... This rabboisai is with six, and four that didn't daven. How about... We did good. We did today. We waited for neitz. We waited for neitz, so we're gonna wait for neitz. We're gonna take care of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Happy Eil, fifteen and fifty-two seconds. Happy Eil, if you're not our minyan, who is our minyan? You're the main part of our shul. There's no shul without you. What's the shul? It's me, you, Reb Leizer. That's the shul of the morning. Not to even a few seconds, five seconds before. I'm saying that clearly. Shlomo says you can. He says that people need to work and go, they can daven. Good, but the people don't have a heter. It's not a heter. He says b'kvius. He says b'kvius. Shlomo says clearly b'kvius. It's there. It's in the sefer. It's in the halichos... He says you can do it. But those that...

Don't have the heter. Don't have the heter. They can't do it. But then you have the ... helping. But forget about that. We can do it anyways. Don't worry about it. Okay. Next, next. We're never going to finish, and then I'm going to blame you again for another day of tefillah. That's it. Tonight's over. Let's go. We have so much. There's so much. Rabbi, so let's move. Okay, you ready? Now, this hakposah is only about six and four didn't daven. But normally our problem is a little different. All ten are davening, but it's not up to the same time. That's where the problem is. So we don't have to deal with the asarah, but we have to deal with the what? The yachad. That's where our problem is. Asarah is not our sugya so much. The sugya here every morning is the yachad. So what's called yachad? Huh? Okay. What's the yachad? What's the yachad? Okay. Question is, we wait. That's what we do, right? The chazzan turns around and he starts counting. How much should you wait for? Should you wait for six? Should you wait for ten? Okay. Come, come, come now. So let's start with the Mishnah Berurah, siman samech-vav, se'if katan lamed-hei. Yeah. It says clearly that the translation of yachad means yachad, yachad, yachad, yachad, yachad. Right? Of omein is already nisht nisht l'maaseh, okay? We'll get there, we'll get there. Right now we're trying to say that l'choira we have a minyan, but our problem is a different problem. The problem is that they're not davening together, our minyan, right? The yachad is the sugya. So I want to tell you that if you understood the sugya of yachad, you'll know ... and I'll explain to you why, okay? First, let's begin with the Mishnah Berurah, which is problematic for us, that yachad, he talks about Klal Yisrael, right? Everybody has a siman סמך ו', סימן ה', that you have a problem with answering amen, right, because a hefsek, and it has to be yachad, Hashem sfasai tiftach, is it good enough because that's considered such a small amount? Okay. So the word yachad means literally yachad, yachad, yachad. So, Rav Shapsi, geshikhin nechtin gevaldik. Who says that there's a tefillah b'tzibur? There's a certain halacha that asur l'adam l'hakdim tefilaso l'tefilas hatzibur, which I told you was good. We said we're going to save this yesod, that maybe it's not about tefillah b'tzibur. It's a non-halachah, which means everybody has the ma'alah of tefillah b'tzibur. But if it's not shaveh b'shaveh, right, so you have a problem for the guys who are starting early. So I'd rather, I would say, a chiddush. You know what I would say a chiddush? That if six people are starting earlier and they're the rov of the tzibur, and they're davening as the tzibur, it's very schwer to say that because the four that are not starting, they have a problem of being makdim. Write that down. That's pashut. They're the tzibur. This is when the tzibur is not davening. This is Klal Yisrael, right? The question is, right, where's the problem? No, the problem is that the shliach tzibur is starting, starting Hashem sfasai tiftach. For everyone else. Yeah, you tell me, what's the story? What's the problem over here that they're not starting b'shaveh? What? Who's being makdim? The six people are being makdim. No, not the six people are being makdim. Maybe the four people are being late. The four are being late. The six people already... The shliach tzibbur's starting, right? Yeah. He's starting, right? And everybody's answering Amen, and they're starting late. So where is the problem that it's not b'sha? Is that what the Mishnah Berurah is saying? Because if you're starting later than the shliach tzibbur, then the pshat is you're starting late. Right. So what is his pshat? I don't get it. Forget about his pshat. He's my best friend, but you don't have to... He's my best friend also. You're starting late here. You're not starting early. We're all saying the same thing. It's a very poshut zach. Leiz, what's the problem here? The shliach tzibbur starts. The shliach tzibbur and the other eight people start, and you're waiting another minute, so you're starting late. So you're starting late. The issur is asur l'hakdim... to go late. So obviously it's al tefila b'tzibbur, not al... What else is there? No, but that's what I'm saying, I differ in the nekudah. But is there a problem for six people to start? Asur l'hakdim? Yeah. Definitely not. Definitely not. Asur l'hakdim means you're not allowed to go ahead...

The tzibbur, that's what you said is pashut. It's pashut, right? It doesn't say the tzibbur can't go ahead. Can't go ahead in the right. I'm just saying, I don't care what you’re saying. You're starting late; you're not starting early. What's the case? So the shot starts on time. The shot starts on time. So where is the problem? And they're all going to start after. So what's the problem? It doesn't say tefillah b'tzibbur. No, you could come and say that the problem is that they're not starting together, because it has to be together. The shliach tzibbur can't start earlier. It has to be together. There's halacha that the tzibbur has to start together. We clarify: what's that halacha of that everybody's starting together? Is that halacha otherwise felt in tziruf, or it has to do with that if the— Oh, that's what I'm clarifying. Maybe it's a non-halacha of yachid and shliach tzibbur. So it's never negea with the six people starting. What's your sugya that the six people are starting before the four? There's no sugya like this. Who said there's a sugya like this? It's a gevaldige— I'm telling you. I'm telling you. It's a gevaldige— I'm telling you pashut pshat. The shliach tzibbur is starting, right? And the people, they're going to answer amen, so they're a minute late. Zogt the Mishnah Berurah, no good, because they're not together with the shliach tzibbur. Okay, it has to be b'shav, everybody starting together. So I'm asking you, because otherwise it's felt in tefillah b'tzibbur. If ten people, or six, whatever it is, are not starting at the same moment, the problem is that it's not called tefillah b'tzibbur. So everybody brings from this Mishnah Berurah, yeah. I don't know if that's what the Mishnah Berurah is saying. What this Mishnah Berurah is saying is not in hilchos tziruf of tefillah b'tzibbur. It's a din in that the tzibbur has to be— Starting together, because one can't be before the other. Which din is that? What's the ... for that? There is halacha, a personality ... tefillah ... You're late. You're not early. I understand, but that's in the same lomdus. It's not. Yes, it is. You just said it's not the same. No, because there's an inyan to start together. Even if it's not ... they start earlier, it's still together. It's ... Right, it's a problem. Correct. Correct. The second eight of the ... start earlier, then the ... It doesn't have to be ... I'm telling you, that's what I'm trying to tell you. That's a halacha ... we're going to get there. Good, good. There's a halacha that we ... No. Why is ...? Why is ...? If he missed tefillah b'tzibur, everyone else got it, and he missed it. All right, there might be a third din you're saying. The problem of ... does not apply over here. Forget about ... ... is there's halacha ... you're not starting ... whatever. That could be ... also. That's true. That's a separate issue. Take this out of the picture. The question is, you're saying it's not necessarily ... b'tzibur. It's not bedi'eved that everybody should start together. So start together. Also, so I prove yesterday that it is. But you can come and say that it's not. Okay, let's move. We have a lot of information. Listen to me, listen to me. You'll do it. Take down the thing, you'll do it. Let's go back, okay? The point being that it's very shayach that this is not the same sugya as six people starting together. Why? Because since the rov tzibur, meaning even if you hold that you need ten, yachad. Like the Mishnah Berurah, six davening together is not shava. The word shava is a different sugya, okay? Yachad and shava is not the same sugya. Yachad and shava. רבי, you hear? Yachad and shava is not necessarily the same sugya. What? Beis is nifrades. No, behemes, if you think about it, yachad means that they're davening together. You know what davening together? Relay races. But we'll get to that in a few minutes. First, let's see what's shteiging. Yachad can mean together. The Rosh Yeshiva, zatzal, held it meant that, that you don't do mamish shava b'shava, to be tefillah b'tzibur. Don't be shava b'shava. I, Mishnah Berurah talks about shava. It's another halacha. You got to start together. It's another halacha, that the way a tzibur works is that people daven mesudar; you start together. Do you know that in Kelm, the whole yeshiva had to be holding by Ga'al Yisrael, otherwise they didn't start. The whole yeshiva. Kelm. ... Yisroel ... brings it down, I think, in his sefer. ... brings down in sefer that they waited for shiur chadash. So when we daven with six, that means four people are not going to daven. You know, my zeide told me that they used to close—

Close the doors, because everybody shows up. If one guy was missing, they told him, Go daven in the shtiebel. In Kelm. In Kelm. One guy's missing, daven in yeshiva. Yechidim? We're not yechidim. Yeshiva. You have to a certain time and daven and get the whatever. Nine o'clock is davening, okay? Eight o'clock is davening, seven o'clock, seven o'clock. That's it, everybody go home. Go, go daven in the shtiebel. Is that heard from me? Kelm was yeshiva is a yeshiva. But everybody knew in Europe that Kelm, all the baalei mussar. Okay, it's a whole different world. Okay, b'kitzur, al kol panim, rabosai, itshayech that the din of yachid is one halacha, and the Mishnah Berurah's shavah is a different halacha. The problem is, I showed you in the Biur Halacha, siman kuf tes, se'if alef, divrei hamaschil ha-nichnas. There he writes clearly that the problem of b'shogeg is a problem of that you don't have tefillah b'tzibur gemurah. Siman kuf tes, se'if alef, divrei hamaschil ha-nichnas. Agav, I think it's kedai to hear the lashon. If someone lefi tivo is ma'arich b'tefillah, I like that, the lefi tivo. It's a nature zach, you know, like with the Chazon Ish. They went to Chazon Ish, they told that the Brisker Rav, he says Kriishma for twenty minutes. Brisker Rav was very makpid, and he would say it again, and every oy, he said. You know what the Chazon Ish said? You don't say Kriishma like that. You don't say Kriishma like that. I, the Brisker Rav? It's his nature. He's a very nervous person. That's a match. That's the Brisker Rav, maybe it's Chazon Ish. He's supposed to say it normal. That's it. It is what it is. Lefi tivo. You like the lashon of the Mishnah Berurah? Maybe not tzaddik. Maybe not tzaddik. I'll daven to the Eibishter. Lefi tivo. Why are you taking a lashon? Hello. He doesn't say Reb Chaim Brisker davened very fast. Very, very fast. So they asked him why. Because it's like counting money in Shulchan Aruch. You're supposed to count very fast. The Torah Chaim, it's brought down, Klar, he davened quickly, and they asked him, say for Torah Chaim, is Reb Chaim al haChumash? He's not serious. Why is he not serious? Because they don't give money as a dugma; give something else as a dugma. For him, he did money quickly. He was very smart. He was very fast. So they asked him one time on davening. Next, next. Okay, because I didn't expect this. ... Very fast, huh? Why? Kavana reasons. Yeah, the ... Yeah, so what he said. Let me tell you, there was a big machlokes in about these things. I'm not talking much. ... Go ahead, go ahead, Reb Leizer. If you knew how much information we have to cover now, it's not kedai to talk about. That if you start davening after the tzibbur starts. Yeah. Right. If you start davening after, right? If you start davening after, what does he say? It's lav, right? Yeshiva Berurah, is a klal in the Mishnah Berurah halacha, siman kuf tes, se'if aleph, ... right? Shulchan... Shulchan Aruch talks about if a guy comes in, anichnas l'beis haknesses, u'matza tzibur mispallim, im yachol l'haschil v'ligmor ad sheyagia shliach tzibur l'kedushah, good, right? And if not, he shouldn't daven. So Mishnah Berurah says, nu, go ahead, read about halacha, anichnas. Mikan ein raya l'issur; mikan is the place the Shulchan Aruch, when he came late. The efshar d'zeh lo afilu tzibur... because you were late. But if a guy started on time with the tzibur and he's got a long davener, that's his— that's the way it is. Because you're an ones. But he explains clearly that b'shogeg— late is called not tefillah b'tzibur, not called tefillah b'tzibur, because you're not b'shogeg matzivus. You see clearly that it's a chisaron in tefillah b'tzibur. Okay, now. Maybe the din of not being with the tzibur enough to be machmir is also a chelek of tefillah b'tzibur. It's called tefillah b'tzibur gemurah. I said that. That's what I'm trying to bring out. I'm trying to bring out that it's a chisaron in tefillah b'tzibur. I'm saying from here it's a raya that it has nothing to do with the special halacha. I'm saying maybe the special halacha is also a din in tefillah b'tzibur. It's a way to make a tefillah b'tzibur gemurah. Nothing tefillah b'tzibur means that he has tefillah b'tzibur. There is some tefillah b'tzibur. Okay, halacha l'maaseh, I don't know, I don't know. Okay, let's see now. Now let's see. If you hold that you need ten.

All right, if you hold you need ten, so the shliach tzibbur should turn around and wait for ten, l'choira, right? If you hold you need six, so you wait for six. If you hold you need ten, meaning according to Ramoishe, you should turn around and wait. Six means six besides for you, or six including you? Six including you. So why by after davening did you tell me six besides for? That's something — that's an oinen. That's an oinen. You need six. That's kaddish is something else; we'll discuss that later. Okay, let's say now you turn around. So according to Ramoishe, you should be looking for ten, l'choira, right? You look at Reb Chaim Kanievsky, pakke writes that you should pack a roi. Roi l'hamtin — it's the right thing. It's in Omer Reish Nun Vav, teshuva mem-daled, that you should turn around and wait to make sure you have ten people. Roi. And why does he say roi? Obviously because it's not so clear how we pasken. It's very shayach you don't need ten; maybe six is good enough. So the roi l'hamtin, mistama, means better to wait for ten, okay? So I guess if you're going to lose your shul because of it, and the olam is going to run away, so you know it's not roi anymore. It's not the same. So the words... Okay, so you're going to come and say, but for six you zacha have to wait, right? That's what it comes out. Tonight's shiur is to point out that maybe that's not even so true either. Not even have to wait for six. Yeah, maybe you don't have to wait for anybody. You think he didn't come to me this morning already? He came to me this morning. No, he heard it, I spoke and I this and I that, and someone told him. I said... last week. You don't... anybody. He told himself, finished himself. He's talking about the shatz. Okay, so I'll tell you he's not so wrong. One oineh. I'm sorry. What? One oineh. We'll talk about it. Zero oineh. Okay, this, rabboisai, is the standard re'eh. Now tonight you're going to get the inner... Okay. Not so pashut, the whole thing. Okay. If you take a look, Reb Chaim brings down in Teshuva Lamed Ches, Amud Reish Nun Gimel, that shaveh doesn't mean shaveh. Shaveh means within the first bracha. So step number one is you don't have to turn around and wait for six people to start. Hashem... Even if you start and this guy is almost there and he's gonna... Nevertheless, you see the way the guy... That's how they all talk. L'chatchila, vadai, it's gevaldig, it's all beautiful. But l'maaseh, you're not mechuyav. You want to know something? There's number one: if you already have ten people, and then number eleven and twelve, whether they get a full tefillah b'tzibur, should they do it on time? And there's another inyan: how many people do you need starting? No, because it's the same lamdus. What's called a tefillah b'tzibur? Tefillah b'tzibur means not that everybody's starting at the same moment. You daven together. You have to have everybody, okay, ready, one, two, three. Hashem. He's got the Hashem before me. It's over. It doesn't work that way. As long as it's within the first bracha. And then if you take a look at a Orach 36, he says that Reb Chaim told him, Reb Chaim, I just want you to know something. Most of the teshuvos, yeah, no, but this was worked over. This was taken by a tzavas talmid chacham. This was new. This just came out. This is a group of talmid chacham sat there with Reb Chaim and worked out all the things he ever wrote. This is worked out together with Reb Chaim, okay? Orach 36, he says it's not only the first bracha, but within the first three brachos. And you said this. You said this. That's where it's come. I saw it in the Orachs on the bottom. It's considered one. It's considered one bracha. Go ahead, read it. 36, fierce, fierce, fierce, no?

You say Ashrei. You say Ashrei. A guy's saying Ashrei, Ashrei yoshvei... Okay, the olam's starting to daven. Don't worry about it. Why? Because as long as you catch up within the first... Look. So when we talk about shaveh, not so pashut. The word shaveh is not so pashut that it literally means shaveh, not chraynim. Okay. Now, so it comes out, even if you're going to be makpid on your ten, even if you're going to be makpid on your ten, right, as long as within, after kedusha, within the range of kedusha, l'choirah, you could be meikel that it's considered tefillah b'tzibur. Okay. Now, I wanted to throw out a few more zachin. What are you makpid on because of R' Moshe, yeah? But I thought R' Moshe himself holds it's tefillah b'tzibur even if you come in Sim Shalom. In Sim Shalom, let's say you come by Sim Shalom and you're davening, huh? That's tefillah b'tzibur, he says. Says it klar. For him. So this is a chakirah that I have. That was my chakirah yesterday. I'm a chaker. I'm clarifying. We're going to get there. We're going to clarify. We said this before. We clarified this. Yeah, yeah, okay. Let's see, let's see. Now, so R' Moshe in the teshuvos, Orach Chaim chelek gimmel, siman daled, says clearly that this whole thing with shaveh, it's lav davka. It can't be davka because he taines that no one's ever b'shaveh anyway. What do you mean? Let's say you start, Hashem's tefillah, everybody started together. In two seconds, everybody is in different places. So you can't literally mean that it's shaveh b'shaveh. Now, if you take a look at Shlomo Zalman, in Halichos Shlomo, says the exact same psak halacha, that there's no such halacha, shaveh b'shaveh. It's ridiculous. As long as the olam is davening in the same Shemoneh Esrei, it's good. Okay, Halichos Shlomo, go ahead. Nun, amud tzadi ches. Oh, yes, we do. Who has Halichos Shlomo? Here, you have it. Let's go. Amud tzadi ches, ois zayin. Okay? And then he brings in the Aruch Chesh, the same svara, R' Moshe, shnel, shnel, shnel. So I'm claring an interesting vort. You know what I'm claring? Yeah. Amud tzadi ches, ois zayin. He says this vort clearly, that the word shaveh doesn't mean shaveh. As long as it's within the Shemoneh Esrei, it's considered tefillah b'tzibur. Okay. Yeah, again, afilu l'chatchilah, tzarich, it's good. Yeah, gam. Tefillah b'tzibur. No, Hashem's not good enough for the olam, it's not good enough for you. Go ahead, Yenu. Continue, but I'm the ha'arah, ha'arah ches, ois ches, ois ches, gevaldik. What do you think? Shaveh, shaveh? Within the same Shemoneh Esrei. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna ask you a kash. I want you to think about it, all right? I thought about it years ago. An interesting thing. If you don't hold like this remo'ish and this Reb Shlomo Zalman, and you hold that tziruf is in the beginning, right, and afterwards everybody's flying all over anyway, they're not shavah b'shav anyway, right? What happens if you have six mispallelim, four are mitztaref, that they're stam sitting there because they already davened, all right? They start Hashem sfasai tiftach, now they could leave. They have tefillah b'tzibur. They started the tefillah b'tzibur with ten people, no? Now they could leave. No matter the problem of— I'm asking, halachah l'maaseh, tefillah b'tzibur. Huh? They have to go. What do you want from them? Like, did you a favor? What do you want? Ois Hashem, or what? They talk about this. Now I'm a legitimate person. No, no, his shailah, not your shailah. Oh, his shailah. If somebody, they need you for minyan and you davened already, and you say, I'll start so you can do it, but I gotta leave in the middle, do you have the problem of ois Hashem? So my shailah is, how much do they have to stay for? According to if you hold that the tziruf is in the beginning, just Hashem sfasai tiftach, you have six people, Hashem sfasai— why not? Why not?

I want to say put. What am I saying that's wrong? You tell me why I'm wrong. Are you mask, according to Rashi, the whole tziruf is the entire, the entire Shemoneh Esrei. But if you hold that the tziruf is shalva bishalva, that they got to start in the beginning, doesn't sound right, right? Something doesn't sound right. So what? That's not right. You like my shaila? Look at my shaila. You tell the guy, listen to me, I got one minute to spare for you, all right? You better start. Hashem's first, I tiftach. Have a nice day. Okay, now you got your minyan. That's all. You started with ten people. And therefore what? And therefore what? Where is this? What are you quoting, new? What? So scream it out, because they're stoning me to death because of what I said. Nu, so what does it say? That's what it says. Nu, that's what he's telling you. You have tziruf b'tzibur. It's novel. It does happen. So read it. What do you want from me? I hold this. I don't need to have Rabbi Yashiv to show me that I'm right. I know I'm right. Go ahead, nu. It says this vort that Hashem's first I tiftach is good enough because you have the tziruf already there. No, because it comes out that they're davening later with netz. He says it. He says it, huh? He says, Mishnah Berurah, siman zayin, lamed hei. Did we do that one? Yeah, that's the same one. They just got it wrong, right? He tells on the b'shava b'shava. Could you imagine if you weren't here? They would hang. They would hang. I would have to find myself another... It sounds good. Years ago I thought of this... It's a good vort. It's a good vort. If you hold that it's shava... You hold that it's not... There's a shaila when... So you wait. So say Hashem... with them. So you're yotzei too, because it's tefillah b'tzibur is chal. Wait your three minutes that you need before you say... for your... How do you...? No! Are you... Because ten people are saying... How do you feel yet? Okay, let's go back. He's not leaving. All I'm telling you is, nobody's waiting. He could be waiting. It's much worse for his chiddush. Fine, it's... but it's understandable that everybody's going to be finishing Shemoneh Esrei together. Together? I understand. There's not going to be a minyan by the time... You should see when they daven before Neitz, it's done before Neitz. No, I don't mean... From the nun to the tzaddik they're already finished. Isn't the shaila whether you don't have a minyan at the end of your... Isn't that the shaila? Now, let's go vayter, let's go vayter. I'm asking, whatever. You know what it is? There's not enough time. My ... I can't, because there's not enough time. They want to start Shabbos. They want to start Shabbos. I promised him. I promised him Shabbos. My word is a word. My word is a word. I said Shabbos is Shabbos. I don't know. Listen, I promised. My word is a word. Rav ... my word is a word. Okay, let's go vayter. Okay, I have to go vayter. Come, let's go. It's page four, nine pages, please. Let's go vayter. Now, now, we've just established that first of all, shava b'shava doesn't mean shava b'shava, according to many acharonim, okay? U'beroshim Ramoisha. If you want the yud of Ramoisha, forget about the good. You can have it as long as you're davening within the same tefillah. It's called tefillah b'tzibur, okay? Then I want to tell you, even if you have one person that's davening, one person that's davening, that wasn't the tzibur, and you're davening together, one person, and you're davening together with that one person that wasn't the tzibur, it's a tziruf kib...

Considered part of the tzibbur. So I'm asking you a question. So again, to make the cheshbon, make the cheshbon. If a person comes and he wants to daven, yeah, nu, come, nu, nu, nu. A yeshiva guy comes and he says he wants a minyan, yeah? He wants b'davka ten people. He doesn't want to daven with six people. What does he care? By the time he's ready to daven, by the time he's ready to daven, did you have ten people davening? Yeah, sure you had. What do you mean? Baisim shalem, had ten people davening already. He's davening slow and he doesn't want to start with six people. So let him. If as long as one person from the ten, one person, baisim shalem, you have ten people davening, that's called a tzibbur according to the Chazon Ish. There's not two ladies. It's not like that. Shabbos, read the Chazon Ish now. Go ahead. Teshuvas lamed zayin. That's... teshuva lamed zayin, amud reish nun gimel. Go ahead, yes, nu. Amud reish nun gimel, teshuva lamed zayin. That's a good kushya. Again, what is the yeshiva guy all nervous about? That we started with six people? Is that what's bothering him? By the time that— Don't say that. He says, yeah, tefillah b'tzibbur. He says, yeah. Right, not tefillah b'tzibbur, whatever. I'm saying, so you don't have the... What do you want? Have you seen the Chazon Ish? It's called tefillah b'tzibbur. That's not a riot. It's not necessarily a riot. Here, you started with ten people, so you started with the real... It's not necessarily a riot. You started with ten people, so you have a tzibur gemurah. So therefore, as long as the tzibur started already, it was chal l'shem tzibur. If you hold like R' Moshe, that a tzibur means, if you hold like R' Moshe, that anywhere within the realm of the davening you have ten people, which you're going to have, eventually the olam is going to sit and daven, right? Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. I'm not coming to tell you that you shouldn't start together. I didn't say that. I'm not telling you all that. But if you notice, they're all dancing around. It's good, it's nice, it's wonderful, it's gevaldik, it's a zisvitz. Okay, what's the halacha l'maaseh? You don't got to kill a shul because of it. That's the point. The point is a rav has to make a decision. Do you have a minyan with six people davening? Yes. A guy comes, 'I need my ten people.' You can work around your ten people that way also. You can have, as long as there was ten people davening. So the six people started, the three, four people are going to continue, right? And even if you're davening with one of those ten, what? Even in the beginning, you're starting six people. You're starting with six. The more you should hold, if you start with six, and in the middle another four, I'm going to daven with you. That's called ten people davening. And you, yeshiva man, who's davening slow, don't worry if there's only one guy you're davening with. It's also good. Don't worry about it. It was a little stupid. You started with six people, let's say. Correct. That's called tefillah b'tzibur. It's good for you. You have a whole sugya of tefillah b'tzibur. Okay, let's go back to... Now, how could you deny, rabosai, the Tzlach? How could you deny the Tzlach, rabosai? The Tzlach says a chiddush. That's right, you looked it up. The Tzlach says that even if you're not davening with the tzibur, meaning they're saying Ashrei u'va l'Tzion, and you're davening Shemoneh Esrei, it's called tefillah b'tzibur. Very shvach. ... The Mishnah Berurah brings it down lahalacha. The Mishnah Berurah brings it down lahalacha. ... That's why you're allowed to daven Musaf.

Vice versa. So, so—whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Oh, that's different! That's different! Wait a minute. ... says רבי חיים not like that. He says the ... I doesn't mean that it's tefillah btzibur; all the tzlach means it's bishatai. He says it's not true. Look at— Why not? Teshuva mem-zayin. Teshuva mem-zayin. ... the Pri Yitzchak. ... the Tzvi Eliezer. ... the ... You doa. ... the ... The tzlach says, lo kasav ela ... Zog Reb Chaim it doesn't mean that. Zugam kavanas haMishnah Berurah: you have tefillah btzibur, and the tzlach is mechadesh even without. So the ... I'm ... I don't like the ... Don't be such a ... and yet then ... you understand ... It's only ... Even if he's saying ... maybe the tefillos of the tzibur are going up by Shmoneh Esrei, not in the middle of ... So good, you can ... What should I do? I should tell you to rip the tzlach out of the tzlach? What do you want from me? The tzlach is ... because that's also the pshat ... But the tefillah btzibur— You're ... I'm asking, listen, I'm asking: you see that they asked this to Reb Chaim. That doesn't make sense. He said it does make sense. That's what Reb Chaim is saying. You see that the Shmoneh Esrei could also be tefillah btzibur, because it's Shmoneh Esrei. But ... there's no ... You can be yotzei tefillah btzibur? Isn't talking about that? What is it, Slav? What is Reb Chaim? Reb Chaim is saying that when they're davening Shemoneh Esrei, not only are you yotzei b'shas hadchak, you're also yotzei l'chatchila. But if they're davening— But I'm showing you a mareh dike zach. How could you tell me shav v'shav if one guy is davening, ‘Atah chonantanu, olam chamikedem, atah yatzarta olam chamikedem,’ and the other guy is saying, ‘Slach lanu,’ and that's a tircha? It's real. What happened to shav v'shav? I don't accept that. That's the raya, shav v'shav. We don't have shav v'shav. We don't have— I'm starting like this: ‘Atah yatzarta olam chamikedem, baruch Atah Hashem...’ How could you come and say, ‘Tzaddik, tzaddik, ois lamed’? He brings it. He brings the Slach davov, brachos, the bracha. Who brings the Slach? Reb Shmuel. Tzaddik lamed. No, but who says that? The... also. Any... safek? The Chazon Ish. The most famous Slach. It's my card, it's my card. I'm running out of space. It's me. Like this, like this. Okay, who wants to...? I'm not— I walk. I'm on the street. Reb Yitzchok, kechovin mein kar. Reb Yitzchok... take— Wait, wait, wait. I'm not here. I'm not the... Reb Yitzchok, nem mein kar. Nemes, no. The tefillah b'tzibbur, that's lach. If a guy says Ashi vol tzibbur and yud-daled ... say tefillah b'tzibbur. That's lach, davor. Okay. The ... doesn't break down the half. The rav is right in front of you. I know. The hell about the tzibbur? What do you want? You know what it is? Every day at 6:15 we need you. End of story. There's no ... Now that we got that over with, you can listen to this. Okay. Now, lefi zeh, ... Ma'ariv. ... say that all the time. Now at least there's somebody to back me. Okay. ... That's lach. That's lach. I didn't see ... Shmoneh Esrei, Musaf. That's what we're asking. As long as the olam is davening anything, it's lach. That's the ... It's lach. Yeah. It's interesting. Very busy. All right, it's cold.

Okay, let's go. How do we have fan on us? After how רבי sits with the fan. Only the heater. I still can't get over. Every time I think about how it was you, Reuven, and Roy walking in the same room, I was jealousy that wasn't in that room. We heard the story with the window, the ... he mentioned one story about you. I mean, that's like, that's amazing. That's like the two ... ... in one room. I'm not saying not either. I just don't know what you're learning. I know ... also. How we can say what I see. What? ... Very nice. He has pages. Maybe you should … en 天天爱彩票.

Oh, my.

You know.