Hilchos Lash: Preparing Similac, Instant Cereal, Pudding, and Mashed Potatoes on Shabbos

Transcript

At least I have who to come back to, you know, who to talk to. Okay, let's go. Today, rabosai, I want to discuss the instant cereals, Similac. I got interesting ha'rayos from Reb Chaim, ... So let's discuss. So in order to understand the instant and the Similac and the whole sugya, it's actually not enough to know Shin chaf daled—I'm sorry, Shin chaf aleph and Shin chaf daled. You got to know something else, another halacha: Shin mem, se'if yud beis. Yeah, huh? Very important part of the sugya. Okay, go ahead. Very good, go ahead. ... Why? Because they mesarvim, they mix and they get stuck and it's— With the water. The minute you put the water in— No, with the water. Because of the water, they become stick together. With each other. Now look at the Mishnah Berurah, how the Mishnah Berurah is masbir, yeah? There's got to be a Mishnah Berurah somewhere. No Mishnah Berurah, nothing, nowhere? Okay, anything? Okay, ... I thought it's Mishnah Berurah somewhere else also. Okay. Al kol panim, yeah. So something yechayev b'lash, yeah. So what's different? I mean, isn't that nesinas mayim? Isn't that the sugya of nesinas mayim? I mean, we learned nesinas... This has to do with tevilah. It's like a hemshech to tevilah. It's like a hemshech to tevilah, yeah. So let's take a look at the Chazon Ish here in Nun Ches tes, and he says a big, big yesod, that this is a very unique case, because this is that the minute you put the water, it sticks together. The nesinah—he says that re'irin, something comes out which causes a sticking agent or something comes out, and therefore it becomes lash even by just putting the water. So even according to Rabbi Yosi, that holds that lash is only gibul and not nesinas mayim, here he's maskim that you're chayiv even for just putting in the water. Go ahead. Chazon Ish, Nun Ches, se'if katan tes, dibur hamaschil zeh. Which is this gemara, yeah. Maskinan mishum lash, v'chi teima sari loi. Zeh pirushon mishum d'is lei ribui. It has its own, like a saliva, whatever, something that comes out, sticky stuff that comes out of it. You know what reminds me very much of it? Oatmeal. Oatmeal has something that comes out when you put water into it. It becomes very sticky. You know, oatmeal is a very sticky maichel. Okay, go ahead, yeah. An instant for sure. Even the regular, because something comes—it's very sticky, yeah, go ahead. U'mashma afilu Rabbi Yosi v'Yehuda d'is lei Shabbos yud-ches, nosen mayim l'kemach patur ad sheyegabel. He would say, Kamah d'hacha chayiv. Rabbi mechabel u'tfei mikemach b'lo gibul. Inami, hacha lo mitztaר gibul she'ein darkan b'gibul. Lo michsar, sorry, lo michsar gibul. So either way, either because it's worse or it's like michsar gibul, whatever the reasons are. So it's not even connected in the first place. Right. Okay, now I want you to pay attention to the two. Hold it open, because we're going to say, givaldig, givaldig Torah. I said, it's beautiful. And you want to know something? I'm a little nervous because it's new. I never went through this sugya properly. I mean, I never did this, I don't know. And I started getting interesting when I saw the Chazon Ish. I started to think things are starting to, you know, clarify itself. Didn't we learn from the Chazon Ish that for a tinok, you're allowed to make him his food because of shas hadchak, which means, since we pasken that gibul is asur, so nesinas mayim—it's only derabbanan—so nesinas mayim becomes mutar, right? And then you could use that teirim, right? We learned that shas hadchak—a tinok is called shas hadchak. Didn't the Chazon Ish bring that heter? That's what I'm talking about. I'm saying from the Chazon Ish. Go ahead, so read the Chazon Ish. It's in Nun Ches, right? What was it, Ches, right? But you brought tinok. By tinok, yeah, yeah, the shas hadchak, tinok, no?

We learned it, we learned. Koishem hapeiros b'kadera, sakina kedinan, v'rotze achar kach lizkot l'soichel limun, ein issur b'schitaso mishum shechitah, ki l'soichel l'tevo oichel. Aval asa mishum lash l'daas hamachmirin k'Rebbi. Aval keivan she'osin kein bishvil mezonos hatinok... So even Rebbe's shitah, we learned this yesterday, right? So you can be meikel because it's called the shas hadchak, like the beheima of Tzar Baalei Chayim, like the biur halacha that we learned, that it's called shas hadchak, right? What food is he referring to? If he's referring to the cereals and the Similac, sorry, we have this chashash. Not so pashut. Slow down. The olam uses the tinok business; it's not so pashut. The tinok is good for regular food maybe, for the banana. Maybe it's good for the banana, right? When you put, I guess, liquid into a banana, it doesn't mean that it's nisgabel me'atzmo. But Similac, an instant food, is meant that it becomes right away stuck together. So then you have this chashash, so l'choira there should be no heter, yeah? L'choira there should be no heter. Now, the question is, so let's asser it. Sai bli l'rako and sai bli love. What, bli l'rako? Maybe b'shas hadchak. Ah, so let's go with that. That's why I'm here. If I'm clarifying, efshar the heter is only by bli l'rako and not by bli love. I don't believe so, and I'll tell you why. Let's take a look at the Rosh Yeves teshuva, Ois ayin, by tapuchei adama, and I hope that's what the Rosh Yeves means by tapuchei adama. Purei, purei. Rabbi Yitzchok. I took care of it. My mother's gonna call tonight. My mother's gonna call tonight. No, no, it's taken care of. It's talked the right way to go. But, I mean, mutar lehachin talches tapuchei adamah me'avko nimser, instant potato. Cute. Oh, pudding. Right. Me'avko nimser, instant pudding. Yeah. Al yedei shinui, didn't sinas mayim achar kach, v'shinui b'iruv. With these two shinuyim, it's mutar to make these instant potatoes and pudding. Teshuvah: avko nimtza shel tapuchei adamah asur b'chol oifen, even without shinuyim. V'avko nimtza shel pudding b'li lo rakam mutar. What's the... what's the... What's the Rishonim mechalek? By potato, it's asur legamrei. According to Rishi, you're not allowed to put an instant potatoes any mashkeh. Why? Maybe he holds it's always bli lach. He's saying this chazonish. There's no heter. The instant becomes a gibul the minute you put the water in. The minute you put it, it's like the instant cereal and the instant... And the pudding not? Pudding is a little different. Pudding is a little different. And you want to know something? You want to know something? Maybe, maybe you're saying—maybe you're saying right. I'm not saying you're not. Slow down. I agree with you that could be, even in instant, there would be a chiluk of ava and rakah. Wait a minute. Okay, you know what? Let's say it that way. L'choira the chiluk is ava and rakah, right? Good? Okay, yeah? Slow down. I just feel he should have been more... No, no, slow, slowly, slow, slowly. I agree with this, and you see, I'm breaking it up in two steps. The first step I want is that you see tapuchei adamah is asur b'chol inyan. Peirush, what's asur about? It's also even with the lash. The lash, just by putting the water in, you're not doing anything. Anything instant that becomes a puree will become aser right away. The water itself is an issur. Yeah, the water itself is an issur. The only thing is, in the sinus, the water itself is going to mix it. Right. So the only thing is, you see that he's mechalek between blilah rakah. Well, I mean, he's handling with the eruv also. He's handling with the eruv. I mean, he's discussing the shinui l'arev b'shinui. He is discussing the gibul. He is discussing the gibul. Nowhere in the Shailos or in the teshuva does it focus on the sinas mayim. So what do you want to say? What do loh? Yeah, I'm saying, but let's say by tapuchei adama, why can't you do it with the shinui? It's blilah avah. We're handling with a de'oraisa, because it's blilah avah, and the shinui won't help you at all. And the shinui won't help you at all. Mashenkin by the instant pudding. So you know what? Let's learn it the other way around. What's wrong with asking as a kasha then? L'choira, by putting, the instant should become right away aser d'oraisa because of the siman shin mem, and still we see that there's a heter of rakah. Let's try it that way. L'choira, the putting in the pudding is called a blilah.

Right, the fact that I just put in the water, it should be aser. So where is the heter of rakah, unless you say there is a heter of rakah. So I saw Reb Shlomo Zalman says not like that. Reb Shlomo Zalman says there's no heter of rakah. It's bli lava and bli larakah, it makes no difference, okay? Huh? Yeah. Oh, you know how are you? You should know I miss you. You're not here, I miss you. I miss you a lot. So let's see how— okay, so let me tell you what we're discussing. We're discussing how are you allowed to make food for a baby on Shabbos, instant cereal, right? The rice, those rice, the Gerber rice cereal, and the Similac. So let's see how Reb Nissim Karelitz paskens. He says an interesting psak halacha about the instant cereal. Okay, here we go. Okay, ... afkas daisa. Afkas daisa is instant cereal, yeah. ... sounds like bli lava, yeah. Also לעשות בשבת, ... שיעשה בלי לרכך. No, so then you see bli larakah vert mutar, yeah, with a lot, a lot of water. Now what's ... like? Guess the person, right? ... Talk about afkas daisa. It's powder that you make cereal from. It's the instant cereal. Instant cereal, it's afka, it's powder. You put in the drink, and then it becomes a issa, like a dough. So the halacha is you have to put a lot of water in order to become raka, yeah? And if not, right, without the shinui it would be aser. What about tapuchei adama? Right, you should do it shinui, okay. So you see the sheficha. The minute you put the sheficha, forget about even the mixing, the sheficha itself becomes aser, which is this chazon ish. But what does it become, a blilah avah right away? I don't know, but he says it's aser either way. It doesn't make a difference. Because it's not... That's what. You could be... You see the chiluk. Maybe there's no... by those things. It's not mashma. It's mashma it's becoming right now an issa, and then he brings putting also. Putting is aser. Jelly. Jelly. I guess that's what he means, right? Read inside. Jelly. Avkas jelly. He needs Jell-O. He probably means Jell-O, okay? So you see that these cholek a little on the Rishonim. The Rishiva says blilah rakah would be mutar, yeah? Blilah rakah would be mutar. Yeah, but why would a guy do it? Would a guy make Jell-O blilah rakah that it was so wet? Jell-O is always blilah rakah. What is it? Tafel. That's called avah. It's almost a nozel. Jell-O. I mean, maybe there's different types of... The way they make the Jell-O in yeshiva. The way they make the Jell-O in yeshiva. We don't make a shak by dessert. It's a nozel. Okay, what do I want? Let me tell you what I want. What I want is that something which l'choira becomes a mixture just by putting the water, lo techazenish, which is the Hezber in Shin Mem, it's aser right away. There's no heter of shaas hadchak. There can be no heter for it. For example, to make puree for a baby, would it be mutar? No. Because he doesn't bring it. He doesn't bring it. That's what I'm trying— You see, I saw this chiluk. He says, naaseh k'men isur. Because you're saying it's automatically bli love. Sounds like that's what we started off before. So why didn't he give the— put him in harbei mayim? Put him in harbei mayim. Why just put a lot of water? Then you said it before. Why not say it here? How many times does he have to repeat himself? No, it's not mashma. It's mashma it's aser. So why did he wait till he brought all the cases, and then he said— Why did he split into different cases? He should have put— I tell you why. Because who wants to make a blilah rakah? Wouldn't want to eat it. For a baby. For puree, you wouldn't want to eat it. Who would eat a puree that's blilah rakah? I mean, that's what I'm saying, like a jello, who would want to eat it? There's other things, daisa maybe make a blilah rakah, that you do. Okay, so let me tell you what I have. I sent in my talmid today, and he said over from—

Rav Chaim said over from Reb Elyashiv that if you put a lot of water, it's mutar. If you put a lot of water, it's not mutar. The tapuchei adamah, everything is mutar with a lot of water. I don't know if I ever experienced this tapuchei adamah. You're having yeshiva, so they make the mashed potatoes. That's how they make the mashed potatoes. There's nothing real in yeshiva. There's no real food in yeshiva. Who's making mashed potatoes on Shabbos? Why not? Because you baruch Hashem, they have a cholent, they have daas, you don't have it. You still need the shinuyim. You still need the shinuyim. What I know, you want to make the mashed potatoes, you have to put it in a pot and cook it, and don't just add water and then— So can I show you what I really want? Can I show you what I really want? I'm setting you up. You still need shinuyim. You need the shinuyim, whatever. But I'm saying, but it's all harbei mayim is mutar, harbei mayim is mutar, and all these things, and daisa, and it's all mutar. Okay. I'm setting you up. I'll tell you why I'm setting you up. I can't understand. The mekor is the Chazon Ish. Look at Nun Ches, se'if katan tes. He talks about the case of shumshumim, which is this case of something that becomes an issa, and he says clearly even if you put a lot of water. He says it clearly. Maybe that's the metzius, because there's re'ui. First read it. First read it. First read it. In that same one? Yes, se'if katan tes. Which? Se'if katan tes. Nun Ches, se'if katan tes. Which dibur hamaschil? With the shumshumim. The same one we just read? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Zera Pishtan. Zera Pishtan, yeah. ... Zera Pishtan b'mayim chayav, maskimim shum lo, shvachi tzari lo. Zera Pishtan mishum dislei re'ui, u'mashma d'afilu Reb Yitzchok ... d'is lei ... patur ad sheyigabel. He would also cover derech chiyuv, de're'ui mechaber lutfei mikemach v'lo gibul. Inami, ... she'ein darko b'gibul ... I see it yet? No. ... You should come again. He saves the best stuff. Here it is. Hacha mashma, d'afilu noisen mayim merubim chayav. What happened? It's all based on the Chazon Ish, what they forgot about the Chazon Ish. I sent my talmid back. I said, You go back. He didn't want to go back. I told him, Don't ever call me again if you don't go back. Now one of my talmidim has to call me. He's going to Reb Chaim today. He went to Reb Chaim, so I told him to ask, What's the daisa? What's the halacha with the daisa? So, pashtus, it's mamish the case of sif yud-beis. Shin-mem. Look at shin-mem. Maybe he is different. Maybe that's the metzius. No, I know, yeah. We'll find out. He says it b'feirush. If he doesn't call me back, I know he never went back. He says it much better. He says, Nidbakim al yedei rivui tefei. Look, hashma d'hacha b'shachlayim she'einam merusakim ka'in minan. We're talking about shachlayim she'einam merusakim. Hainu d'lo shayach ulisha, aval zera pishtan nishrin v'nidbakim al yedei rivui tefei. So maybe that's why over here also. And he says it over here also. D'af b'noisen mayim merubim chayav, heivan shehein nidbakim zeh bazeh tefei. It has nothing to do with it. You add all the water you want. It's this rivui business. You made a blilah rakah. I don't see what you want. He's asking a kasha from blilah rakah. I'm asking, so what happens if you make blilah rakah? I'm asking you, you make a—there's no such thing. You can't make a blilah rakah. Blilah rakah is mutar. If you could somehow manage to put so much water in there that you drown the thing and it's a blilah rakah, it won't get stuck together. Because we really can get so bottled in the mayim. Maybe I have the keys. I like my kasha better. Okay, let me tell you a little... You know what? There's two people just walked in. Give a quick chazarah of the whole thing. Just, pashut, a quick from shin mem, the beginning. Chazarah, maybe I can do. Quick? I can't do. Come on, come on, because now's, now, let's go. Tell them what we're talking. Basically, we're discussing instant cereals, or a similar type of thing. Not the... To start again. There's a Gemara like this, no? Why not? Why not? It's good. The Rebbe was saying we have instant cereals, or Similac, or similar type of things. I did this... this is the reid on Shabbos, okay? Similacs and instant, and cereals and Gerber, halacha l'maaseh. So the truth is, it's all good, shin chaf aleph and shin chaf daled, it's outgeshmak. But there's one problem: it's not in shin chaf aleph and not in shin chaf daled. You know why? Because it's not the same case as all the other cases.

It's actually a case of shinmem. What's the case of shinmem? Pishtan, shumshumin. Yeah, pishtan, shumshumin. Zogt the Chazon Ish that anything that becomes an issur just by putting in water, which is instant cereals and Similacs, the halachah, right? So even Reb Yosi holds you need gibul to be chayiv, the sinas mayim. Rebbi holds in the sinas mayim. Reb Yosi holds gibul — that's that first Mishnah in Burah — nishpa adava, which is instant. Instant powder, zachin. What is it, like it makes like a whole issur out of it? You use it for a bottle. It wouldn't go out of the bottle if it would be anything thick once it'd go through the bottle. Kutach, you can make it a blilah rakah. You shake it. You can make it a blilah, but let's say you don't make it a blilah rakah — that's the shaylah. They don't talk chatzim. The Rav's just saying, do it. I'm saying do it. I'm just telling you, daysa, do it instant, instant cereals, okay? Any time you want to make a juice, say whatever you want, flavored water, you put the space for it. That's nothing, because there's so much water, so it becomes like mayim mechurim that we learned. If you make it a taka like mayim mechurim, it's not a sugya. But if you make, let's say — that's the Mishnah, that's the Chazon Ish — that's the three darges: there's blilah rakah, there's blilah avah, blilah rakah, and mayim mechurim. Mayim mechurim is the third dargah, which is that's why you're allowed to put sugar and water, because there's no... whatever, all these... Huh? Tzvi? Ein tzvi baichl. Good, good, good, okay, good. Ein tzvi baichl. By Bishul. Okay, go ahead, Nu. The Rav said anything. No, no, no, no. So the ... okay, let's ... I don't know where we left off. All right, so I'll just say the list. I said, so the ... is mashma that tapuchei adami can never do instant. And pudding you could. Instant pudding, no? Instant Jell-O, instant pudding, all these things. What? You can't. You can't. You can't. Jell-O is ... Instant potatoes, no? You're not making ... Father, not. This is ... The minute you put the water, you stop. And instant cereal. So instant cereal, they come and say if you make it rak, you make the shinui. So I'm asking a pashut kasha. I said, the minute you put the water, it turned into nisan, so what do you want? So I sent in my ... but you make an instant cereal. The minute you put in the water, it becomes ... The minute you put in the water ... See, if you put a lot of water, so you have to put — you know how much water you have to put in to make it oven? It's a lot. A rak, I mean, it's really a lot of water. A lot, a lot of water. That's the only way it's going to be mutar. Only mutar. That's what we're learning here. So what happened? And even that's not so pashut, because if it's the darkei, it should be aser. There's no chiluk in shinui mem between a rak and ... You see any chiluk between rak and ...? That's the shaylah. Is shinui mem toli in rak and ...? That's really the shaylah. Okay. So I sent in my talmid, and he went to Reb Chaim. Reb Chaim said b'shem Reb Elyashiv that if you put in a lot of water, even shinui mem will work. For shinui mem it also works. Reb Shlomo Zalman holds not like that. Reb Shlomo Zalman says clearly, for shinui mem doesn't work, not rak and not ... So I came, I said, where's the giboy? It's a ... chazonish. That's the zicher the makor, right? Because that's where ... He says harbei. He says clearly, even if you put a lot of water. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Even if you put a lot of water. He's making the same diyuk, that mipnei she ... harbei ... it's not just stam that that's why there's lashon. It means that this is the metzius. That's why it doesn't make a difference ... It's always going to stick. So all the Chazonish was saying is even by harbei. Yeah. Okay. All right. Ken zai. Okay. It's תלמוד. Let's try it out. If after you put in lavud, it's still open. Okay. That's forrina's these cases. That's the case. Forrina's is a problem of bishul. I'm saying, let's say cold. I'm saying ones that you could do with cold. Oh, so that we spoke. We spoke about. Even though the first minute is bli lavud, since l'maaseh it's b'kilu acher, that's the chazon ish, kilu acher. That's the chazon ish, kilu acher. It's very suggy, you know. It's a very difficult suggy. I did it. I did it. I just read. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw that shtickel. He says, 'What about the beginning and the end?' Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw that. He says, 'What about, let's learn...'

Kiluach echad by kriyah. What kiluach? Kiluach means one, it's one shot. As you're pouring, so l'choira it's aver that turns into raka, but who cares? It's one ma'aseh. Yeah, I brought it to you. Here it is. Okay, now listen carefully, yeah. So what happens if you want to make similech? So if you make it in such a way that it's taka very, very loose, so then it's called like mayim achurim. What about if it's not very loose? You want to make like a thicker, a little bit that, you know, it should be a little heavier. You have to understand, for babies, you know that for babies they want thicker, right? You know the lumps. The baby, you don't want the liquid, okay? You're trying to get more food, right, for the punch, as they say. If you're gonna start filling up with water, it fills up with water and then it doesn't eat. It doesn't. So you're trying to make it as thick as possible. Okay, so let's say it's bli l'rakah, so l'choira two shinuyim help. I'm not so sure what the shinuyim are, though. Let's see, make a Similac bottle. What are the shinuyim for Similac? ... Mashaneh the seder. You put the water in first. By bottle? He said no, he didn't say by bottle. He's talking about— No, what do you need it for by a bottle? I'm saying if you make bli l'rakah. I don't know, let's see, slowly, slowly, let's see. So first I want to tell you that there's Reb Shlomo Zalman that says by bottles, bichlal there's no problem by all instant foods. I want to show you, ... hechsher, hechsher, ... Yeah. Okay. ... שגם תחילת מעשינו הוא רק לשחוק, לשחוק, ... ולהמס, למלט, whatever, ולא לגבל. Just right away it makes it together, even without gibul. ואף שרוצה שיבלעו המים בתוך העיסה, though you want that the water should be absorbed in the powder, מכל מקום הוי בשעה שהיא עבה, לא חזי לאכילה, והבלילה היא רק כדי להמס. The whole point is to make it yavori l'achilah by making it more watery, more, you know, of a blilah rakah. אפשר דהבלילה הוי ליה כאין פסיק רישא דלא ניחא ליה. וגם הויו וניכל לכול, שהוא מסכן אוכל לעשות זה משקה, דלא לגיבול, מסתבר דשאר שארי עפרותינק בכל גוונא. So it's mutar. For tinok. For tinok. What case? In all cases. In all cases. In other words, you don't have to come on to the heter of psik reisha d'lo nicha lei for a tinok. For tinok. But what about blilah rakah? So even though it's blilah rakah, but if it's blilah rakah, it's mutar. So what's the sugya really? According to Rav Shmuel Zalman, there's never a sugya when you want to make baby food, huh? Am I getting it right? Is that what it says here? It saves a lot of problems. I mean, it's a very interesting Rav Shmuel Zalman. We pasken like that? Is it efshar? I don't know. Could you show it to him? Because the olam is busy with the cereals. According to Rav Shmuel Zalman, there's no sugya really. ... I don't know. Okay, go ahead, you read it. He's not mechalek over raka when it's aser. But this is a case where it's mutar b'chalal. He's not mechalek between over raka in shumshim. Because it's stam derech achilah; it's nothing. B'shogeg, it's not ro'eh l'achilah, so it's nothing. So, yeah, I know. So, zog, I don't know. So tell me, halacha l'maaseh, according to this, do you have a problem by instant cereal?

You don't have any problem for a tinikus in cereal. That's what he says, no. You can make a bottle however you want. That's what he says. Read it. I saw it. I read it. The Chol shetinik here. Even shegam techilas masei rak lischoik ulhamis v'lo likabel, v'af sherotzeh sheyivla mayim b'soch chafko, mikol makom koil b'sha'ah sheyavo v'lo chozi l'achilah, v'lo rak כדי להחמיס עצמו בלי... ...lo choshesh... ...mistafek... Here. ...afkas cholov... ...afkas cholov... ...el doin ein afkamis... ...yad... ...chiluk... ...mayim... ...esh... It's all mutar. ...very interesting. Okay. So let's see halacha l'maaseh. So what would you say, that you need a shinui? What would be the shinui? What about switching the seder? What about switching the seder? How about b'ma'ariv b'kli v'lo b'yad? I'm saying b'ma'ariv the kli, that Mishnah Berurah. Maybe. People don't do it. People don't do it that way. I think that's how it's done. I think, l'fi... the only way it's done is only through the bottle. Oh, the shaking, not mikli. Mikli would be different, maybe. But the shaking of the ma'ariv, that you wouldn't have. That's also b'koach. That's also b'koach. It's like tiruf b'koach to shake it. ...tiruf b'koach. I'm shaking it. Oh, so I'm going to get to that. One second. So Reb Chaim told my talmid that Reb Elyashiv says you do it with the left hand. That's also a shinui. Which is interesting because it was never mentioned. It was never mentioned. I don't know. I sent him back. I said I don't see it, but it was never. How come it's not one of the things that's mentioned? Unless it's like in the kli al kli, and then you do it with the— Slowly. Let's go slowly. Let's see what state. Tamid chiddush. Okay. How about mat mat? Reb Eliezer, the mixing the bottle should be done with the left hand. Huh? We don't know anything about koach yet. Left hand and not right hand. So if you mix the bottle, so Reb Shlomo Zalman says, bichlal there's no problem, because the whole thing is it's just to get to the water. But if you hold you need a shinui, so what's the shinui? So he says you mix the bottle with the left hand. Okay. How about mat mat? I'm clarifying, maybe mat mat is not shayach by a kli. What's the svara of mat mat? Because it's not the derech, right? But for a katan it is the derech. You only—how much an ounce, two ounces. You don't make the siman like a lot; you make a little bit. Nacha anounce, nacha anounce, what a mother needs to add, so she adds a half an ounce or two. So maybe they had the mat mat you don't have. You do? You have to—mat mat could be grogeres. Huh? Mat mat could be grogeres, but that's when it's more than grogeres. When the derech is more than grogeres. So if this is a small amount in the first place, just do it. There's no shiur. I don't think there's a shiur in these. Mat mat, there's no shiur. People give the baby whatever he needs. If he needs an ounce, he needs an ounce. If he needs a half an ounce, he needs a half an ounce. There's no shiur to it. Okay. How about menaches v'loy b'koach? What about that one? Chardal, sugya of chardal. Yeah? Menaches v'loy b'koach. Al choireh, when you mix it, yesh koach; otherwise it's not going to really work. It's not gonna mix otherwise. You can't say second shinui. The shinui is that you do b'nachas, ולא בכח. You do it slowly. Takes a long time, so that's the shinui. In the end it'll work? That's the shinui. Why not? Why wouldn't it work? I don't know. Maybe it just never gets... It has to be in the same way. Good, very nice. I'm not gonna call you... You want. We can do it. Someone actually needs it for Shabbos. You have to hit it, but extra. You have to hit it. What do you mean? You have to hit it against the... It's not... It has to be hitting. You think so? Just to do like that. B'nachas, there's no such metzius, you mean? Is that true? Do it. Just put it over a couple times. No, I think it's more than that. Ten times. All right, fifteen times. What's the l'maaseh? They prepare all the same like Erev Shabbos? Really? Yeah. What do you do? What do they do by you? What's... My wife takes care of everything.

I never give simlak anyway, so that's not... You know, it's interesting. I'll tell you, I ever told you about the dosh? There's a whole shaylah that if the woman wants to pump, it's dosh, right? So you're supposed to throw it out. You know, there's a famous... it says, Klal, you don't have to throw it out. Once it's out already. Once it's out, what do you throw it out for? So there's a Mishnah Berurah that's mashma you have to really throw it out. Oh, you know about that, Avnei Nezer? How do you know you can't feed it to your kid? Why not? She can't do it. Why not? She can't do it on her own. Well, you could take it after. Yeah, yeah. Why not? Why not? Why is it arumah? She's not being mechaven; she's just doing it for this. Huh? No, because... she's doing it for tzaar. So therefore what you do is you take it, and then you put it. If she does it l'chatchilah for that, then... Okay, what do I really want? You know what I really want? How do you know l'maaseh—and this I don't have klar, and that's why I'm really scared about this sugya—how do you know which shinui works for what? I don't have it klar, and I don't know how you could get it klar. There has to be some guidelines, no? You want to go through those guidelines? Let's go through it, because I'm not klar in it. In other words, there's so many different cases, and like I told you yesterday, shinuyim are in different cases. So how do you know what to compare it to? Maybe simalak is like kali. And I'll tell you why I'm saying this. Go back to the original Chazon Ish. And that's why I hold—you really have to understand what bothers me. When you go through the mekoros, it's klapnish. Because the truth is, what is the two sevaros of Chazon Ish, what the problem is by gibul, by shumshim? What is it? He said two sevaros. One is that it happens right away, yeah? Zvachim, zvachim, riri, what happens, yeah? Yeah. So that's one. That's one, right? Mechaber lutfei. Then he says a second svara. Right, and then he says a second cheshbon. What's the second cheshbon? But you're not megabel. Don't tell me—don't tell me cereal, you're not megabel afterwards. It's not true. It's not true. The instant cereal, you don't mix it afterwards. What are you talking about? The whole velt uses this Chazon Ish. Is that only after sugar? Is that the only reason to mix it by instant cereals for the sugar? No, because you have to mix it. You have to mix it afterwards. I'll tell you what. I'll tell you. I want you to go look, okay? I want you to go look, and you'll see that everybody uses this Chazon Ish for the instant cereal. It's not—it's not zois. It's not both pieces of the Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish says two sevaros in it, so unless you say one of the two is good enough, you're not mixing the cereal afterwards. No one leaves the instant cereal with just putting the hot water on it. So by shumshim, you did—that's all you did. So what do you—during the week maybe they do it to make it hotter. How do you know? The Chazon Ish does not like that. To mix it good. To mix it up good, because some parts don't get wet. Only get wet. Avada, avada. It's not this Chazonish. It's not this Chazonish. See, I do. I do. It's a different chay. Because the gibul ain't darko. But you see, but if it's dark, people gobble afterwards, of course you do. So it's mutar also. What is mutar when the Chazonish? All the Chazonish says it's not this. That's what's aser, even without gibul. But it's not the story of the cereal. The cereal, right? What's the matter, what, just to put it without the... The aser, I'm telling you. They're saying you're not allowed to make instant cereal, and they compare it to this. This is the Chazonish, therefore it's aser even maybe without shinuyim. You can't even put shinuyim. Yeah, I'm saying it's mutar to pour water, but it's not going to help you, the water, because... No, I'm saying it's not this Chazonish. Chazonish is saying, you're not saying because it sticks together. There's two pshatim in the Chazonish. It's not going to help you to put it in. Yeah, I'm saying, so you may even override from here anymore. Can I mix it? Something else. I'm not discussing the mixing. I'm telling you different. Then maybe shinuyim help you. What? Avada you need to mix daisa. What are you talking about? It's not this Chazonish. Everybody uses Chazanish. I don't know, did they read the Chazonish? I don't know what happened. That's what I'm telling you. It's not clear. Here, tell me something. What's the chiluk l'maaseh between kad? Does kali work mat mat?

So then that's the case. Mat mat, right? It works. It works. Is it not chaser dibur, or is it? It works. Mat mat, okay, whatever is, it works. And by chardal—what? It works? Well, we clarified, like the Rambam. You can't clarify. It says that it works. The Rambam won't clarify. The Mechaber says mat mat works. Whatever the reasons are, l'maaseh, kali mat mat. No, because we clarified the other day. I know what they clarify, I understand, but the question is: kali's mat mat, and chardal is not about mat mat. Chardal is about nachas v'lo b'koach, and shtita is about the seder, and shin chav daled by the beheima, by mursan, it's about b'shesi v'arev. So how do you know where to apply what case to what? Maybe certain things need shesi v'arev. By the way, they all bring down shesi v'arev without the katos, without shesi v'arev. The back of the spoon is without shesi v'arev. It's a separate one. There's shesi v'arev and there's katos, two different. But I'm saying, how do you know what it is? What's kali? You know the case of kali? Doesn't need gibul, no? So maybe mat mat works. I don't know which shinui do you decide works and doesn't work. Unless you say that it's not shayach mat mat by baby food because he anyway do mat mat. For a baby, you only do mat mat; it says no real shinui anyway. I'm saying, how do you know what shinui to use, that there's different shinuyim? Are you maskim that mat mat doesn't work for everything? That's what it says, klar. It works by chardal also. No, mat mat doesn't work by chardal. No, because he started Erev Shabbos, and then all you need is a little extra, so it's b'koach v'nachas v'lo b'koach. So how do you decide which, I don't know which shinui do you use when? I don't have it clear, I don't know. Okay, so let's see the Chazon Ish's klal. Read them, please. Read me the Chazon Ish's klal. Go ahead, nu. Where is it? Yeah, yeah. L'maaseh, what are the shinuyim, okay? Dinim ha'olam, nu. Dinim ha'olam. Dinim ha'olam v'das harav u'de'imei: mutar litein mayim l'mosin b'Shabbos v'la'asos shinui b'irui, d'hainu shaseh b'erev u'ma'areh mikli al kli. Chein mutar litein mashkeh l'kemach kli... So what's the heter to be morsin and kemach? Mat mat works? I don't know when we say what. Who comes and decides when we say what? You have a klal achara? I don't know what achara is. So you know the easy way to do it is take them all and say they're all different shinuyim and they all work. Is that emes? Is that true when you learn this sugya? That's what it says here? Sounds like from all the... That's what it's mashma, right? That from all the... I don't know. Yeah, R' Moshe, Chazon Ish. I know you have to go with R' Moshe, yeah. Chazon Ish, go ahead. Yeah, kemach kali, yeah, nu. That's mat mat. So he states about kemach. You know, he's just repeating over the different cases. So why'd you just say, just say, all the shinuyim are mutar? I don't think all the shinuyim are mutar. Reb Yid, I don't believe the Chazon Ish all the shinuyim are mutar. Dinim ha'olam. What's the dinim ha'olam? By morsin you do this, by this you do that. So now tell me, what is the instance here? You know, I don't know. I don't have... Maybe the Ribiat knows how to get a klar. I don't know how to get it klar. I don't know. You understand the... You see that it's different sugyas, and you see it's brought down in different places, and it's different shinuyim. So who decided they put them all together? Here, there's five shinuyim here. Take them. You work with them. Go ahead, keep on going, yeah. ... mutar bein miyad bein kli, bein chelek memorsin, ... bein ava bein rakak. ... Shabbos, ... ... bein miyad bein kli, ... Hey, what? A chardal. Again, just tell me what the klalim are, no? I challenge you. I want you to go ask the lomdim in yeshiva. Could you just go and write no notes? Go tell me, could you sit down and write these are the shinuyim for hilchos lash? It's not true. Each case is different, and you have to shtel tzu your particular salad and your chatzilim and your tchina, and get it back to the case of mursin, and get it back to the case of chardal, and each case is different. Each case is different, and you better know the klalim of each case. And even in Shumshimin, that they compare it to zera because the gibul happens right away, the second pshat in the Chazon Ish is not instant cereal. It's not, I'm sorry, no it's not, because everybody mixes it afterwards.

It's chaser. There's no din of gibul. It's not true. It's not true. It's just not emes. So you know what the bottom line lashon is? I don't know. So it's all asur in that. So what should I tell you? You know klal, you know what to be mechalek? I don't know how to be mechalek. You're making chardal, you're making mursan on Shabbos. Which one are you making from these klalim? No idea. No idea, so that's it. That's it. No? No, I thought your ... would be with me and agree with me. I am. Yeah, so ... I don't think you know. These are cases, particular cases. We don't even know what it is. Each case, and you see that shinuyim in each case, ... is mefaresh the separate cases. He's mefaresh separate cases, so what's he talking about? And even the ... that's not the case. The ... doesn't need dibur, yeah? There is something over here. Yeah, read. ... You have to make each case, Avraham. You have to know each case if you can tell ... not ... So who's going to decide it? No, no, it's all good. Read that line again. Read it again. ... What are you talking about? Each case needs to be ... and if not, you're chayav chatos, so go do it.