Hilchos Losh on Shabbos: Instant Cereals, Baby Formula, and Blilah Rakah

Transcript

At least I have who to come back to, you know, who to talk to. Okay, let's go. Today, rabosai, I want to discuss the instant cereals, Similac. I got interesting ha'rayos from Reb Chaim, ... so let's discuss. So, in order to understand the instant and the Similac and the whole sugya, it's actually not enough to know Shin chaf daled—I'm sorry, Shin chaf aleph and Shin chaf daled. You got to know something else, another halacha: Shin mem, se'if yud beis. Yeah, huh? Very important part of the sugya. Okay, go ahead. Very good, go ahead, ... go. ... Why? Because they mesarvim, they mix and they get stuck and it's ... With the water. The minute you put the water in— No, with the water. Because of the water, they become stick together. With each other. Now, look at the Mishnah Berurah, how the Mishnah Berurah is masbir, yeah? There's got to be a Mishnah Berurah somewhere. No Mishnah Berurah, nothing, nowhere? Okay, anything? Okay, so it's in ... I thought it's Mishnah Berurah somewhere else also. Okay. Al kol panim, yeah, so something yechayev belosh, yeah. So what's different? I mean, isn't that nesinas mayim? Isn't that the sugya of nesinas mayim? I mean, we learned nesinas... This has to do with tevilah. It's like a hemshech to tevilah. It's like a hemshech to tevilah, yeah. So let's take a look at the Chazon Ish here in Nun Ches tes, and he says a big, big yesod, that this is a very unique case, because this is that the minute you put the water, it sticks together. The nesinah—he says that re'irin, something comes out which causes a sticking agent or something comes out, and therefore it becomes lash even by just putting the water. So even according to Rabbi Yosi, that holds that lash is only kibul and not nesinas mayim, here he's maskim that you're chayev even for just putting in the water. Go ahead. Chazon Ish, Nun Ches, se'if katan tes, dibur hamaschil zeh... which is this gemara, yeah. Maskinan mishum lash, vechiti vesari loi. Zeh pirushon mishum de'is lei rivi. It has its own, like a saliva, whatever, something that comes out, sticky stuff that comes out of it. You know what it reminds me very much of? Oatmeal. Oatmeal has something that comes out when you put water into it. It becomes very sticky. You know, oatmeal is a very sticky maichel. Okay, go ahead, yeah. An instant for sure. Even the regular, because something comes—it's very sticky, yeah, go ahead. U'mashma afilu Rabbi Yosi v'Yehuda, de'is lei Shabbos yud-ches... nosen mayim l'kemach, pater ad sheyigabel. He would say, Kamah d'hacha chayiv. Rabbii mechabel u'tfei mikemech b'lo gibo. Inami, hacha lo mitzar gibo she'ein darkan b'gibo. Lo michsar, sorry, lo michsar gibo. So either way, either because it's worse or it's like michsar gibo, whatever the reasons are. So it's not even connected in the first place. Right. Okay, now I want you to pay attention to the two. Hold it open, because we're going to say, givaldig, givaldig Torah. I said, it's beautiful. And you want to know something? I'm a little nervous because it's new. I never went through the sugya properly. I mean, I never did this, I don't know. And I started getting interesting when I saw the Chazon Ish. I started to think things are starting to, you know, clarify itself. Didn't we learn from the Chazon Ish that for a tinok, you're allowed to make him his food because of sha'as hadchak, which means since we pasken that gibol is asur, so nesinas mayim—it's only derabbanan—so nesinas mayim becomes mutar, right? And then you could use that teirim, right? We learned that sha'as hadchak—a tinok is called sha'as hadchak. Didn't the Chazon Ish bring that heter? That's what I'm talking about. I'm saying from the Chazon Ish. Go ahead, so read the Chazon Ish. It's in ches, right? What was it, ches, right? But you brought tinok. By tinok, yeah, yeah, the sha'as hadchak, tinok, no?

We learned it, we learned. ... אין איסור בשחיטה משום שחיטה, כי לסוך לתוך אוכל. אבל עשה משום לאש, לדעת המחמיר כרבי. אבל כיוון שעושים כן בשום מזונות התינוק... So even Rebbe's sheet, we learned this yesterday, right? So you could be meikel because it's called the shas hadchak, like the beheima of Tzar Baalei Chaim, like the bir halacha that we learned, that it's called shas hadchak, right? What food is he referring to? If he's referring to the cereals and the Similac, sorry, we have this chazonish. Not so pashut. Slow down. The olam uses the tinok business; it's not so pashut. The tinok is good for regular food maybe, for the banana. Maybe it's good for the banana, right? When you put, I guess, liquid into a banana, it doesn't mean that it's nisgabel me'atzmo. But Similac, an instant food, is meant that it becomes right away stuck together. So then you have this chazonish, so l'choira there should be no heter, yeah? L'choira there should be no heter. Now, the question is, so let's asser it. Say בלי לרכך and say בלי לב. What, בלי לרכך? Maybe b'shas hadchak. Ah, so let's go with that. That's why I'm here. If I'm claring, efshar the heter is only by בלי לרכך, not by בלי לב. I don't believe so, and I'll tell you why. Let's take a look at the Rosh Yeves Teshuva, Orach Chaim, by tapuchei adamah, and I hope that's what the Rosh Yeshiva means by tapuchei adamah. Purei, purei. Rabbi Yitzchok. I took care of it. My mother's gonna call tonight. My mother's gonna call tonight. No, no, it's taken care of. It's talked the right way to go. But... I mean, mutar l'hachin talches tapuchei adamah me'avko nimser instant potato. Cute. Oh, pudding. Right. Me'avko nimser, instant pudding. Al yedei shinui, din shinui hashamayim achar kach, v'shinui b'iruv. With these two shinuyim, it's mutar to make these instant potatoes and pudding. Teshuva: avko nimtza shel tapuchei adamah asur b'chol oifen, even without shinuyim. V'avko nimtza shel pudding b'li l'rakam mutar. What's the... What's the Rishon Mechalek? By potato, it's asur legamrei. According to Rishi, you're not allowed to put an instant potatoes any mashkeh. Why? Maybe he holds it's always bli l'... He's saying this chazonish. There's no heter. The instant becomes a gibul the minute you put the water in. The minute you put it, it's like the instant cereal and the instant... And the pudding not? Pudding is a little different. Pudding is a little different. And you want to know something? You want to know something? Maybe, maybe you're saying—maybe you're saying right. I'm not saying you're not. Slow down. I agree with you that could be, even in instant, there would be a chiluk of ava and rakah. Wait a minute. Okay, you know what? Let's say it that way. L'choira the chiluk is ava and rakah, right? Good? Okay, yeah? Slow down. I just feel he should have been more... No, no, slow, slowly, slow, slowly. I agree with this, and you see, I'm breaking it up in two steps. The first step I want is that you see tapuchei adamah is asur b'chol inyan. Peirush, what's asur about? It's also even with the lash. The lash, just by putting the water in, you're not doing anything. Anything instant that becomes a puree will become aser right away. The water itself is an issur. Yeah, the water itself is an issur. The only thing is, in the sinus, the water itself is going to mix it. Right. So the only thing is, you see that he's mechalek between blilah rakah. Well, I mean, he's handling with the eruv also. He's handling with the eruv. I mean, he's discussing the shinui l'arev b'shinui. He is discussing the gibul. He is discussing the gibul. Nowhere in the Shailos or in the teshuva does it focus on the sinas mayim. So what do you want to say? What do loh? Yeah, I'm saying, but let's say by tapuchei adama, why can't you do it with the shinui? It's blilah avah. We're handling with a de'oraisa, because it's blilah avah, and the shinui won't help you at all. And the shinui won't help you at all. Mashenkin by the instant pudding. So you know what? Let's learn it the other way around. What's wrong with asking as a kasha then? L'choira, by putting, the instant should become right away aser d'oraisa because of the siman shin mem, and still we see that there's a heter of rakah. Let's try it that way. L'choira, the putting in the pudding is called a blilah.

Right, the fact that I just put in the water, it should be aser. So where is the heter of rakah? Unless you say there is a heter of rakah, okay. So I saw Reb Shlomo Zalman says not like that. Reb Shlomo Zalman says there's no heter of rakah. It's bli lava and bli larakah, it makes no difference, okay. Huh? Yeah. Oh, you're allowed. Why are you? You should know I miss you. You're not here, I miss you. I miss you. I miss you a lot. So let's see how— okay, so let me tell you what we're discussing. We're discussing how are you allowed to make food for a baby on Shabbos: instant cereal, right, the rice, those rice, the Gerber rice cereal, and the Similac. So let's see how Rav Nissim Karelitz paskens. He says an interesting psak halacha about the instant cereal. Okay, here we go. Okay, ... afkas daisa. Afkas daisa is instant cereal, yeah. ... sounds like bli lava, yeah. So then you see bli larakah ... yeah, with a lot, a lot of water. Now what's ... like? Guess the person, right? ... What, what, what? I'm talking about afkas daisa. It's powder that you make cereal from. It's the instant cereal. Instant cereal, it's afka, it's powder. You put in the drink, and then it becomes a issa, like a dough. So the halacha is you have to put a lot of water in order to become raka, yeah? And if not, right, without the shinui it would be aser. What about tapuchei adamah? Right, you should do it shinui, okay. So you see the sheficha. The minute you put the sheficha, forget about even the mixing, the sheficha itself becomes aser, which is this chazon ish. But what does it become, a blilah avah right away? I don't know, but he says it's aser either way. It doesn't make a difference. Because it's not... That's what. You could be... You see the chiluk. Maybe there's no... It's not mashma. It's mashma it's becoming right now an issa, and then he brings putting also. Putting is aser. Jelly. Jelly. I guess that's what he means, right? Read inside. Jelly. Jelly means jello. He probably means jello, okay? So you see that he's cholek a little on the Rishonim. The Rishiva says blilah rakah would be mutar, yeah? Blilah rakah would be mutar. Yeah, but why would a guy do it? Would a guy make jello blilah rakah that it was so wet? Jello is always blilah rakah. What is it? That's called avah. It's almost a nozzle. Jello? I mean, maybe there's different types of jello. The way they make the jello in yeshiva, the way they make the jello in yeshiva, we don't make a shak by dessert. It's a nozzle. Okay, what do I want? Let me tell you what I want. What I want is that something which l'choira becomes a mixture just by putting the water, lo techazeinish, which is the hesber in Shin Mem, it's aser right away. There's no heter of shaas hadchak. There can be no heter for it. For example, to make puree for a baby, would it be mutar? No. Unless it's בליל רך. Because he doesn't... he doesn't bring it. He doesn't bring it. That's what I'm trying... You see, I saw this chiluk. He says, naaseh k'men isur. Because you're saying it's automatically bli love. Sounds like that's what we started off before. So why didn't he give the... put him in harbeh mayim? Put him in harbeh mayim. Why just put a lot of water? Then you said it before. Why not say it here? How many times does he have to repeat himself? No, it's not mashma. It's mashma it's aser. So why did he wait till he brought all the cases, and then he said... Why did he split into different cases? He should have put... I tell you why. Because who wants to make a blilah rak? For a baby. Wouldn't want to eat it. For a baby. For puree, you wouldn't want to eat it. Who would eat a puree that's blilah rak? I mean, that's what I'm saying, like a jello, who would want to eat it? There's other thing, dice, maybe make a blilah rak. Okay, so let me tell you what I have. I sent in my talmid today, and he said over from...

Rav Chaim said over from Reb Elyashiv that if you put a lot of water, it's mutar. If you put a lot of water, it's taka mutar. The tapuchei adama, everything is mutar with a lot of water. I don't know if I ever experienced this tapuchei adama. You're having yeshiva. That's how they make the mashed potatoes. There's nothing real in yeshiva. There's no real food in yeshiva. Who's making mashed potatoes on Shabbos? Why not? Because you baruch Hashem, they have a child, a daas, you don't have it. You still need the shinuyim. You still need the shinuyim. What I know, you want to make the mashed potatoes, you have to put it in a pot and cook it, and don't just add water and then... So can I show you what I really want? Can I show you what I really want? I'm setting you up. You still need shinuyim. You need the shinuyim, whatever. But I'm saying, but it's all harbei mayim is mutar, harbei mayim is mutar, and all these things, and daisa, and it's all mutar. Okay. I'm setting you up. I'll tell you why I'm setting you up. I can't understand. The mekor is the Chazon Ish. Look at Nun Ches, se'if katan tes. He talks about the case of shumshumim, which is this case of something that becomes an issa, and he says clearly, even if you put a lot of water. He says it clearly. Maybe that's the metzius, because there's re'ui. First read it. First read it. First read it. In that same one? Yes, se'if katan tes. Which? Se'if katan tes. Nun Ches, se'if katan tes. Which dibur hamaschil? With the shumshumim. The same one we just read? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Zera Pishtan. Zera Pishtan, yeah. ... Zera Pishtan b'mayim chayav, maskimim shum lo, shechitah ... Zera Pishtan משום דסליק ריחי, ומשמע דאפילו רבי ... דדיסא ... פטור עד שיגבל. He would also cover derech chiyuv, de'rivi mechaber lo chashiv mekemach lo gibul. Inami, ... gibul she'ein darkan b'gibul, ... אפילו רבי ... ... I see it yet? No. ... You should come again. He saves the best stuff. Here it is. Hacha mashma, d'afilu noisen mayim merubim chayav. What happened? It's all based on the Chazon Ish, what they forgot about the Chazon Ish. I sent my talmid back. I said, You go back there. He didn't want to go back. I told him, Don't ever call me again if you don't go back. ... One of my talmidim has to call me. He's going to Reb Chaim today. He went to Reb Chaim, so I told him to ask, What's the daisa? What's the halacha with the daisa? So pashtus, it's mamish the case of se'if yud-beis. Shin mem. Look at Shin Mem. Maybe maybe that's the...