Shabbos 123b: Muktzeh, Tzorech Gufo U’mekomo, and the Gezeirah on Kelim

Transcript

U'ki ka'ari lei Rava, l'vei she'eimur tzarich tafas lo adam, lo ba'i v'lo min kamei. U'deka'ari lei Rava, and this that Rava said, right, asks, l'tzorech mekomoi shelo l'tzorech, yesh pirush d'chol tiltul b'chdi karinan michamel l'tzel. V'hainu k'maisai. Yeah, certainly, we have to fix this. V'hainu k'maisai, v'hainu d'kari shelo l'tzorech. Others argue and say that whenever something is called shelo l'tzorech, it's called michama l'tzel. One shita, again, one shita says like this: now when the Gemara says that will be matir michama l'tzel, that's a new tzorech. It's called tzorech hakli. The other shita says the Ritva. It's a very important Ritva, I'm telling you, it's unbelievable. This Ritva is gold, because the Ritva is telling you the heter of michama l'tzel, even because it's l'tzorech hakli, or it's called shelo l'tzorech. I got it. Exactly what I spoke yesterday. It's mamash what I spoke yesterday. I'm telling you, the Rishonim—you don't understand. You look back in the Rishonim after the shiur, you'll see everything we spoke about yesterday in the Rishonim. Unbelievable, I'm telling you, unbelievable thing here. Now, if you understand that tzorech hakli, you're allowed michama l'tzel. That was like this. But if two walks over to you and asks, tagid li, am I allowed to move a keli she'melachto l'heter l'tzorech michama l'tzel? Lefi Rava, you're allowed. That's how we pasken. Abaye, we don't pasken like. Let's leave Abaye alone for one minute. What's the Rava? He's going like Rava. The answer is yes. He's speaking about. Again, in Rabba, when Rabba says it's mutar micham l'tzel, Eliezer, poisek. You want to become a poisek, you gotta know this Ritva. If you don't know this Ritva, you missed the boat, you missed the whole thing. Why is it that you're allowed to move michamah l'tzel, and the answer is simcha. Nu? Because it's a new thing called tzorech hakli. Yes, that's continued. Till now, we had something called tzorech gufo u'mekomo. It's a new thing called tzorech hakli. Who? If you read inside. Kol tiltel b'chdi, anything for nothing is כבר already u'tzel. V'hainu k'mo it. And he explains, that's called shelo l'tzorech. That's why the Gemara, when the Gemara says michamah l'tzel is called shelo l'tzorech, you know why? Because it's taka shelo l'tzorech. There you go. What's the machloikes? What's the shaila in the Ritva? Do we look at the kli, or do we look at the gavra? Maybe if you look at the gavra, l'chamah l'tzel asur. Only in a bayis, only in a bayis, but Rav holds mutar. Why? Because it's tzorech hakli. That's the Ritva saying, no. No. The Ritva's saying that's only one opinion. The other opinion says, no, we don't have to look at the kli. Once the person wants to do it, who cares? There's no tzorech in the kli. You don't need the tzorech in the kli. The what? No, that's the second pshat, is the Rav that we said yesterday. We said there's a special heter, a special heter that they gave because the person wants to do it. Chachamim came and said there's a special heter mechamah l'tzel, but you asked, what did we say yesterday? What's that special heter? Because it's not a tzorech of a kli at all. I'm showing you, that's the second pshat in the Ritva. The Ritva says it clearly. But they're not paskening. We pasken like this in Abaye. What are you talking about? In Rava. Rava holds it's mutar, and still, why is it mutar, says the Ritva? Anything bichdi is mutar because you don't need it to be a tzorech of a kli. He's saying, this mechamah l'tzel. What's the heter mechamah l'tzel? So yesterday I told you that it's a new heter, right? It's a new heter called mechamah l'tzel. So the Ritva is asking, what is that new heter? Says the Ritva, either it's the new heter called tzorech hakli, or it's a new heter called af al pi kein, even shelo l'tzorech mutar, yeah? Yesterday I told you that he holds even shelo l'tzorech is mutar. What's the machlokes? What's the shaylah in the Ritva? Because the whole question is when Abaye is matir. When Abaye is matir, Abaye is matir what, Rabosai, kav? Abaye is matir the gavra or the cheftza? The gavra. So when Rava comes along and is matir what? So the mechamah l'tzel has to be a tzorech hakli. That's what the Ritva... you see? And if you have Abaye...

The way we learned yesterday, the way, it has to have a tzorech of a kli. There you go. This mitzvah is because the shaylah in the mitzvah is based on this shaylah. Are we looking, are we being matir all this mitzad the kli or mitzad the gavra? If we're being matir everything mitzad the kli, so we have to have a tzorech in the kli. There has to be heter in the kli. There is. It's called tzorech kli. But if you want it's mitzad the gavra, that's what he's trying to say. Even if there's no tzorech in the kli at all, the gavra wants to do it, then it'll become mutar. I think it's also. I think Abaye is also mechamer himself, because he held— Yeah, because no, but Abaye learns it's going on the gavra. Abaye is on the gavra. So he's never matir the mechamer himself. Yeah, because fakert. Because we said it was nichlei lei. Right, because it's nichlei lei, that's—you don't need a special heter. Yeah, special. Im taima, im taima, im taima, im taima... Stama, stam... shnei bnei adam, ben adam echad, shnei bnei adam, what happened over here? Says one man d'amar, d'Abaye mefaresh lei l'Rabbi... b'shtei yadayim u'vad, v'Rava mefaresh lei l'Rabbi... afilu shtei bnei adam. Yesh lomar, d'Abaye savar, d'keivan d'hani atiru, asu darga basar darga. Since it's step by step, sound familiar? Step by step. Remember the loshon we said yesterday? It goes in steps, right? First, the gufai, mekaymai, okay. The ikar like, me'teira, d'kani kol hakelim from the Shabbos b'shtei yadayim. So me'eileh matzli mishum b'shtei bnei adam. Since it goes by steps, therefore—listen to this—once it goes by steps, then once you learn b'shtei yadayim, so then you don't know shtei bnei adam. You never reach that step. Remember I explained to you the way—I said that's not the point. The point is next kind will be matir, then it will be shtei bnei adam. Right. Remember that loshon? Where did you hear that loshon? Yesterday shiur, right? We said this, right? Remember? Sound familiar. Now, why the tafasta מרובה לא תפסת, whatever, it's a sevara. It's not a sevara-dike thing. Remember I explained to you by a טהור גופאי and not צריך מכאמי. So the question, what's the difference? Who says there has to be a difference? We go in steps. צריך, right? Then there's צריך מכאמי. Steps. But it's mamash the way we did this. Unbelievable. Mamash we said this yesterday. Now, the Rav סבר, the kivan d'kani kol hakelim איתלין, listen, the Rabbuyei l'rabos is kulam, ואפילו הם גדולים, even if they're big. So me'eileh he says the loshon is mashma even kol hakelim, even if they're big. Meaning it makes more sense to be מרבה כל הכלים here, and me'eileh you don't have the limitation for shtei bnei adam, right? What was the kasha? The kasha was— Let us come and say, bishtei yadayim. It's understood, shtei yadayim is mutar, because it's kol hakeli mitztaref, mutar is how big it is. Rebbei? No. Who cares how big it is? Mutar is mutar. Kol hakeli mitztaref. Once it's mutar, it's mutar. Once it acts that, ... What does the first man d'amar hold? Not the kli, not the person. That's why you have to go step by step. Come out, come out. Since Abaye—Abaye, what are the arguments? So let's, before we say what I said yesterday, the pashut in the Ritva is the same like this. Let's, if we go step by step, then what do you have? Yad echad, shtei yadayim. Ish echad, shtei nashim. We never got to shtei nashim. That's the Gemara. Good? Good. We never got—according to Abaye, we never got to shtei nashim. Dage dag. Remember, that's what we said yesterday in Abaye. We said this here. You see from the first, because you see he splits tziruf guf and tziruf makomai. There's no svara to split between tziruf guf and tziruf makomai. That's a svara to say they're the same. Yeah, but who cares if Abaye says? Why?

Okay, I'm sorry, Mekaymek. Two steps. Step one, step two, step three. It's all steps. Who cares? Comes along Rabah, and he says, What do you mean? But they're all the same in svara. The ma'aseh is a different step, and we only go step by step. Good? Okay. So what did Rabah hold? I'm sorry, what did Rabah hold? Rabah held because this says, kol hakelim nitlin, all kelim are ניטל. So the question is, if kol hakelim nitlin, mashma bein gadol bein... So therefore your dayimim, and shtei yadayim is already understood. It's self-understood. So then what do we need a limud for? For shtei bnei adam, for two people. That's what the Ritva says, okay? But if you find a thing that is step by step, I won't need to shed that. All right. Once something is... another person, this is... step by step. What did you say? What did you say? Step by step, yeah. The other person is also meutar, because if you follow, you have the first one, the first... yeah. The second one you can get, the second is the second step, yeah. The third step you can get by the first. The third step הוא מטיל. They never had a chance to be matir that. Maybe if they would have lived another twenty years, and the people were more tzaddikim for another twenty years, and they kept Shabbos, they would have been matir to people too. Okay? Comes along the Ritva. Yeah. How come, because people keep Shabbos, they're not... more? Because they only asked it because people would be mechalel Shabbos, carrying in the street. No, because chachamim came, made muktzah. Point is that the whole reason for muktzah is people carrying in the street. People don't know this. You know, people, mamash, don't know this stuff. Why? Why? Private... moving the... Why do you see this? In the din derabbanan, you see how everything has to be mechushav, cheshbonos. Unbelievable. Muktzah כזה big limud in the halachos of Rabbanan. Safek muktzah, what's the halacha? Chayei l'kula. It's a pri megadim in that. It's hilchos inyanei Shabbos. Since Shabbos is d'Oraisa, so maybe we say safek muktzah d'rabbanan, because the whole Shabbos d'Oraisa. It's a pri megadim. It's a big shakla v'tarya in Acharonim. So it comes out, according to the Ribui, ... okay. So what is he hold? What does Rabba hold? אי סבר כרבי נתלין. The answer is very pashut, because since Rabba, since Abaye never looked at the keli, but at the gavra, so therefore he couldn't learn kol hakeilim nitlin. Who cares how big the keli is? And if we have to go into the sugya. יפה. And if he has to listen to me, you're not going to hear this anymore. I'm telling you, not going to hear this anymore. What did Rabba hold? He's telling me a diyuk that says kol hakeilim nitlin. So what did Abaye see? What did Rabba see? Kol hakeilim, בין גדולים בין קטנים. So what, Rabba didn't what, just argue on the diyuk? No, it says kol hakeilim nitlin, בין גדולים בין קטנים. The answer is kol hakeilim, we don't look at the keilim בכלל. It's you. Kol hakeilim nitlin is a shayla, you. In you, there's a difference between גדולים וקטנים. אלא מאי, there's a halacha of ribui b'shiurim. That's the sugya of ribui b'shiurim. That's what he wants to say in Mareh Nekudah. The ribui b'shiurim, we're not going to be machria if we look at the gavra. At the cheifetz, we'll say ribui b'shiurim on the cheifetz. Here, could a person come and say like this: Mutar li lehotzi, here, mutar li lehotzi two steps, right? I'll do three. Because it's in the chefta of ribbishurim; it's not in the gavra. Yeah, it's another thing. It's another ma'aseh. But your ma'aseh keeps you ribbishurim. It's you follow after the ma'aseh. That's why Rava says, kol hakeilim nitlin — can mean what? Big and small, right? Because you're talking about the gavra. Nami says the Ritva that they're really arguing in sevara. We don't know that. By heter, by tiltul heter, ... regular muktzah is the chefta. But I'm talking about mutarim. The question is by chefta mutarim. Nami, ... he chazar all this ... Nami comes along the Ritva and he says, Inami. Inami, Abaye v'Rava, they're arguing in sevara. They're arguing in sevara. What are they arguing in sevara? Abaye savar, d'mistama kol she'eino ניטל באדם אחד אין להתירו, דדוחקא ביחד ליה, because he sets it up in a special place. Rava savar, keivan she'yesh לו תורת כלי, even ...

What's the difference? He said by adam echad, and you have to have two hands for it, you miyached a special place for it. And he's saying, what do you mean? If the kli is a chamus kli hamuteres, then it's a kli hamuteres. He said it's the same svara. He said if you look מצד the kli, who cares? That's what the Ritva is saying. But if you look מצד the gavra's ma'aseh, you can come and say, you know what? This gavra would be miyached, yeah, this gav... Until here we were learning that the nafkamina was in stage. Then he's saying, you know what? Could be they're arguing in svara also. What's the straight of their arguing in svara? Do we look at the kli or do we look at the person? Even in the svara he says that's... If we look at the person so we can clarify: a person would be makpid to this and he wouldn't be makpid to that. Then we look at the kli, ma li gadol, ma li katan. Now they're arguing in svara also. They're arguing in svara, not just step, step, step, step, what's the step, what's not step. No, no, no, no. They're arguing in svara, but you know what the svaros are based on? Do we always look at the kli or do we look at the person? If we look at the kli, then there's a ma li gadol, ma li katan. You look at the person, and then the person, and then the person, and then the person. Person would be makpid, a davar gadol. Wouldn't be makpid, davar katan. What are we asering? What are we asering? Are we saying that the tiltul of the gavra is what's aser? Then we'll say like this, depending on what he... But if it's מצד החפץ, what's the difference? How much your cheftza? Yeah, so... What's the... What's the... It also doesn't make a difference. If you matir a certain tiltul, this is a tiltul, this is a bigger tiltul, it makes a difference. We need to say if a person would carry a small thing on Shabbos, but he wouldn't carry his big load on his back on Shabbos. Yes. Second side is also, even if svara, even if svara, even if svara, there's an afkamina between Abaye and Rava. This is an afkamina. You look at the... he's not going to carry between... such a cheftz, he has to carry between... he's not going to carry. He's going to leave it alone. That's what the Rishonim say. A person wouldn't carry a big load on Shabbos. He's tired. He's not interested. He puts it away, and that's all. So this is saying, according to the second... all which tells. Yes? Afilu b'shnei bnei adam, katava Rava, mashma d'lo פליגי Abaye v'Rava b'ha. They don't even argue. They don't argue. They greet each other. And you want to... we pasken like Rava. B'shnei bnei adam is also? Huh? Say, Rava, where is this...? Say, we pasken b'shnei dayim... What's the... The teretz is they don't really argue. According to Rava, b'shnei bnei adam is mutar. Other mechaber is b'shnei dayim. Second. The Rava, let's see again one more time. V'adayin... el d'Rava mishum... milsa asi, mitri Rava... Ein kein, da'as haRashba, el d'Abaye v'Rava פליגי. One second. So what do Abaye and Rava argue in? Huh? No, no, before that. What do you mean they argue? Meaning what? According to Abaye... that Rava will agree, that Abaye will agree to Rava. Meaning there's no machlokes over here. So he says, so he says, there's an argument. ... Abaye v'Rava... He's trying to answer, he answers this also. Meaning they're not arguing on the statement itself, right. So what's the pshat? What's he saying? I understand, but they don't argue in this two people, one people.

So then why say it? So what's the point? What's he saying, bishnei bnei adam? He's saying it means shnei bnei adam, including shnei... That's what he's trying to say here. One second. How big in size? So look at the Rashba. The Rashba argues and says that what? Abaye אמר דווקא באדם אחד, ובניטל אפילו בשני בני אדם. That's the machlokes. ... לא אמרינן בשני בני אדם. ... לא אמרינן. ... The same ches. ... לא אמרינן אפילו בשני בני אדם. ... He says like this. And then ... he says that they argue that Abaye סבר ... בשני בני אדם. So Rashi ... according to Abaye is aser, and the Ra'avad's learning in the shita ... look. ... מסתבר כלי. ... Two people carrying it? One person carrying it? Right? Once the pshat is that the kli is mutar, right, mutar, right? Who cares how many people are carrying it, right? The only place that you could talk about two people, one person, is when you discuss the gavra, right? That's why Rava says a chiluk between two people and one person. Rava, the way we learn Abaye, the way we learn Abaye, that it's the person that I can come and say, you know what, one person, yeah; two people, not. Right? ... certainly ... mutar, certainly won't be ... Two ... other ... mutar. Two ... another one. One ... the kli is a kli hamutar. How can it become aser just because two people are carrying? If one person carries, oh, now it's mutar. Two people carry, oh, now the kli became aser? I'm telling you, Abaye learns, Abaye is learning, and the way we understood Abaye, that it's a din in the gavra, so we can be mechalek one person and two ... Right? And that's why ... comes along Abaye, Rava, and he says even b'shnei bnei adam. Why? Because he's looking at the kli. What did the Rashba learn? The Rashba learned like the Ritva, that we look at the kli even according to the Abaye, and therefore he says ... That's the machlokes, the Rashba and the Rosh. And I think the Ritva is saying, that's what I think the Ritva is saying. Yes. ... Rava lav davka. ... We can't be matir. Why can't we be matir? Because it's only ... and not shnei bnei adam. And Rava holds, ... kli ... What's the difference? That's where the shnei bnei adam comes. Okay, you got it? The machlokes, if we're going to learn, is those telling us ... If you learn מצד הכלי, מצד הכלי, what's the difference? One person מצד הכלי mutar; two people, if the kli is mutar, it's mutar. Yeah, I mean, so I hear what you say, but the point is, if the kli was muktzeh, right? Let's say you just add on an extra cover to it, an extra five inches to it. I mean, this kli, if you look at a kli, the kli is a kli hamuktzeh. I mean, what translates the mafkina? The person, if it's the shem, the usage of the kli never changed. A pot, five inches and a pot, eight inches. It's a pot, and a pot is mutar. Good. Shain. Shain. Shat. Yeah. There's only muktzeh l'tzorech gufo. Rabah holds, אין כלי ניטל אלא לצורך גופו ומקומו. The only thing that's asur is mechama l...

It has a shum. It has garlic in it. It has a ... plate becomes a plate. If it doesn't have shum, it's ... This, according to me, no, it is. According to you, that ... is mutar, so it's ... This, according to me, ... is mutar. ... So when it says, ein ... it means ... At least that's the case where it's ... That's a ... According to you, when it says ... it's always mutar. ... The Chacham himself. The answer is, there is no pashut kasha. It's all ... playing games or whatever. But you didn't know that he asks ... Let's see Tosfos. Let's see Tosfos. Let's first see the words of Rashi, then we'll see Tosfos. That's Rashi: ein ... This one, according to me, ein ... meaning Abaye is telling Rava. Yeah, but this is another ... Abaye is bringing a raya. The says Rashi, listen, according to me, yeah, ein metaltelin oisa. You're not allowed to move it without the shul. So then what's it called? You're not allowed to move it. But according to you, amai? Why not? Amai, why not? Now, can I ask you a question? Now, I have a simple shailah in Rashi, huh? You're not answering, so what kind of question is that? Here, why are you wearing nothing on your head? Because I'm wearing a yarmulke. I'm not wearing nothing on my head. Why is the she'eilah? You know, they say over the Rebbes, Rebbes, you know, they make fun — the Litvish make fun of the Rebbes, don't know how to learn. They once said that a Rebbe once asked a kashya to the talmidim, and the talmidim — Rebbes don't have chassidim — so they make fun. Some are, some are gedolim, some no, but a lot of them. They used to say, Ein am ha'aretz chassid. Why not? Because if he's an am ha'aretz, he could be the Rebbe already. That's what they used to say. Ein am ha'aretz chassid. Lo yehyeh lo morach, lo yachok al yad ha'rabim, so chassid. Okay, but al kol panim, what do they say? They say the Rebbes once asked, Lama Torah matchilin gimel? Lama Torah lo matchilin gimel? I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Why does the Torah — no, why does the Torah — why does the Torah... Starts with a gimel. It doesn't start with a gimel. The talmidim said, but Rebbe, it doesn't start with a gimel. ... The same thing over here. That's what I say. There's a she'eilah. This לפי according to me, there's an issur. According to you, you have the issur ... The she'eilah asked for kashya. Two things. I want to be medayek two things in Rashi. First of all, in Rashi we see that he's asking, lididi eli didach. And the second thing is, ela lididach, mai? Yeah? Ela lididach, mai? Now what does mai mean? In other words, did the Gemara ask— no, no. Did the Gemara ask that there is nothing that you can't be metaltel? Or the Gemara is asking on the ein metaltelin? Again, in other words, like this: is the question— there's two ways to say the question. You can either ask the question like this: Bishlama according to me, I understand the ein metaltelin, okay? That's right. So then the question should be, but according to you, on what is it going on? Right? Does Rashi say that?

Amai means why is her name Atalpun. Notice that Rashi didn't say, This one according to me. Look how Rashi begins: This one according to me, ein metaltelin... means... She should have finished. But Rashi didn't get according to you. What does it mean? Yes, you don't say according to you what. No, Amai means why. I'm asking you, the question should have been, According to me, the ein metaltelin means this. According to you, what is the ein metaltelin going on? That should have been the question. It's a little different. It's a little different. That's why you say it that way. Couldn't you say, What's it going on? Yeah, but he should have stressed it that way. So if you want to say the Mishnah exists, right, the question is, according to you, how are you going to put it into the Mishnah, right? How are you going to learn that Mishnah? The answer is, On what is it going on? According to you, according to me it goes on... According to you, what does it go on? And it turns, it goes on... Don't ask it on Amai ein metaltelin. Amai means why. Why are you not ein metaltelin? What Rashi should have said, you'll still see the importance and significance of this diyuk. Does the Gemara mean, and that's what pashut pshat in the Gemara is, according to me here, fill in the blank, ein metaltelin. Do we have any question the Mishnah is wrong? No. The question is, how are you going to learn the Mishnah? What are you going to say the Mishnah is talking about? So this one, according to me, I could say the Mishnah is talking about... According to you, what's the Mishnah talking about? Rashi doesn't say it that way. Rashi says, according to you, I have a problem with the Mishnah. Yes, you see, Rashi, instead of making him the problem, Rashi learns it that according to you, the Mishnah is a problem. You see? Instead of saying that the Mishnah is good and you're the problem, right? I understand that retroactively what we're saying is the same thing, but the wording of them. You see the difference? Oh, he has a chiddush. Good. Now, you hear the nekudah? What the Gemara should have said is Rashi. When Rashi says, Ein metaltelin oisah. Bishlama l'didi, bishlama according to me, ein metaltelin oisah. The Mishnah, when it says ein metaltelin oisah, I say it's talking about tzorech, ka'mai. According to you, what should have been the next line in Rashi? What's the ein metaltelin oisah going on? Not why ein metaltelin, not why does the Mishnah say what it says. The Mishnah says what it says. The question is, what is it going on? According to me it's going on this, and according to you, amai? So say that. He doesn't say that. He should have said, according to you, what is the Mishnah saying? The same way. If you, bishlama l'didi, the Mishnah says what it says. I say it talks about this. But according to you, the Mishnah that it says, what's it talking about? It should say, what's it talking about? He doesn't do that. He goes back, he says, amai, ein metaltelin? The Mishnah is difficult. We have a problem with the Mishnah. Instead of saying, amai, according to you, what's going on? What case is it? Amai what? Amai, atam shel haMishnah, lamah zatzor? So don't go back to the Mishnah. Go back to the person. The problem is you. You don't have a case to say it's talking about. Don't say, but according to you the Mishnah is bad. No, the Mishnah is something. And then, what's the teretz? The teretz is, nu, michamel itself. Okay, no, we'll... no, we'll... You hear the question? Interesting question, right? It's an interesting point in the Gemara. For some reason, the question that Abaye is asking is not, according to me I know the Mishnah is talking about; according to you, what's the Mishnah talking about? According to me I know the Mishnah is talking about; according to you, the Mishnah is bad. How do you learn pshat in the Mishnah? There's a reason why Rashi says that. Can I ask you a question? Let me ask you a question. What does whole Rashi want the first place? When you read the Gemara, that's what the Gemara says. There's באמת not much in this Rashi that doesn't say in the Gemara. Yeah, and you didn't anyway, right? What's Rashi? Rashi's saying something. Something's bothering Rashi very much. Working? He has a... not working too much. ... Abaye is saying me. According to me, says...

According to you, Rav, ... what's the Mishnah talking about? Because that's what it should have said. Say, according to me, the Mishnah is talking about X. According to Rav, the Mishnah is talking about what? That's why it's a ... The Mishnah is wrong. Okay, so ... Why? Why does it ...? Going back to the original ... there's a problem ... according to you. According to Rav, the problem is why does the Mishnah say, according to you ...? That's the problem. ... What did you want, ...? I mean, you should have known that yourself, Abaye. Abaye, what kind of kasha is that? According to you, what do you mean you don't know that ...? So let's see Tosafos. Comes along Tosafos. Or did we miss one Rashi? No, ... So let's see Tosafos now. Says Tosafos, ... This, according to me, I could say it's ... Says Tosafos, ... which the Gemara doesn't answer. In other words, what does the Gemara answer? The Gemara answers ... What the Gemara could have answered was, ... Like Reb Nechemya. Remember Reb Nechemya, the old Reb Nechemya? That's only the ... No, he's saying very good. According to Reb Nechemya, it's very good. Abaye could have answered it according to Reb Nechemya, I don't have a kasha, because Reb Nechemya holds it's only ... anyway. What does Tosafos ...? Why should he answer according to Reb Nechemya? He can answer according to him too. Yeah, but it's ... machlokes also ... You want to know something? You shock the Tosafos. All right, look at Tosafos. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? I have to come and answer you. You know what? Hey, I have a kashya with this white shirt. Why are you wearing this white shirt? You know I'm wearing this white shirt because Chaim likes it. That's why I wear it, because Chaim holds you only allowed to wear white shirts. He likes it, finished. Don't worry about Chaim. Okay, okay, that's mutar. The mutar is because the person wears a white shirt because he likes white. And an answer that this is going according to Mecham. He can answer according to him too. What do you mean, Mecham? Even according to not from Mecham, the answer is Mechama l'stael, no? Like the Gemara answers a little further on. We'll see. I'm saying that's this. This is this, but we'll see how it's ... later. I understand this is going on this. ... We'll soon see. Okay, now, Abaye nami hava yada. Abaye knew the ... mishani lei Rabba hachi le'il. And the truth is, Abaye knew this, this teretz of Rav Nachman, because the truth is, it was already said again. ... So he knew this. But rather what'd he do? He spoke to Rava because he thought maybe Rava will say a different teretz. Now let me ask you a kashya. Tzarich cheshbon al zeh. You need to think, maybe he might come and tell me Mechama l'stael. Hey, you can make a joke. Hey, he would tell you the same like this: באמת לא ידעת ... Atirusha, he already ידע from Atirusa. Abaye, Abaye sha'al, hu yada mi-safka. He already knew this. No, he already knew this, this, this, this from the Chemya, that you can always answer it from the Chemya. Why? Maybe, here's the maybe, he's not sure. Maybe, maybe he'll come and answer him a good teretz, that what if the teretz doesn't start with a gimel? Maybe, maybe he'll answer such a teretz, yeah? Right, maybe. That's what? He wants to hear. Yeah, he wants to hear a different teretz. Tell, tell, tell, ma koreh po. He holds everything is—could you? And we know these are dargos. He holds, he holds, tere gufa from the kamai is mutar, right? He holds tere gufa is mutar, tere mekamai is asur. He holds tere gufa from the kamai is mutar, mechamas itself is asur. So, what do you want? What are you saying? Right, you hear? Maybe, maybe, maybe. What's the maybe? You don't know. He can give you the teretz of mechamas itself. What don't you know here? And it's more than that. It's not even k'shata sho'el amiti. You know, he's not even asking amiti. You know, he's asking to hear.

Here, ... give you a din. ... The ... knew that it's not a kasha. ... Today we ... What did he answer? ... This is mechamer itself. ... Why? ... Why didn't he answer like the Mechaber? You know why? Because he has a teretz even according to not the Mechaber. He says, no, Tosafos has to say a good pshat. You know why? Because ... We don't pasken like the Mechaber. Just say more pashut. You know why he answered? Because according to him, the same way l'didach, l'didi. You know, you could have turned it around and said, what do you mean, l'didach? It's the same way it's good for you, it's good for me. You say it's patur gufa, I say mechamer itself. And why do you have to have an explanation why Rava didn't answer this? You have to have a hesber. Why did Rava not answer? Because it's not making sense. Yeah, what do you want? Anyways, let's see. The lesson ... Rava ... answers like the Mechaber, and Rava that answers like the Mechaber, the mashma lei, ein metaltelin osam beshominin. I, Rava did answer that the sugya goes to the Mechaber over here. The answer is, right, on amud beis, the answer is because ein metaltelin is mashma, ein metaltelin klal. Now here's a very important nekudah. There's a big key here. What does the braisa taka say? When the braisa says, what does the braisa say? The braisa says, if it's asur, ein metaltelin. Yes, so ein metaltelin means ein metaltelin. Yes, so how could you answer it? Now you're talking. Tosafos is saying. No, that's what he's saying. He's saying, the ... is taka not mashma. ... Even the Rambam should have learned like this. That's right. That's right. Even the sho'el should have said, you know what, even l'di'as, it's not good, and let's learn a kointer from the ... This is the sugya. That's the chashash. Now you're talking. Yeah. Only agav the shumyis, everything else. What about Rabba, who does learn the pshat in the Gemara like the ...? Right, so Tosafos should have answered this kushya on the ... So instead of—so why would Abaye ask a kasha? Let Abaye learn that too. What do you have? Abaye ... kasha on him too. If ein a tana was a good kasha on him too, Abaye comes along and— Abaye asks a kasha. What's your shaylah? Who? Right. The Rabba. Ay, Rabba— Rabba that does answer like the ... He does say ... right? Ay, l'hilchesa and all your tainos that you have, we don't pasken. If Rabba said, what could you do? The words are mashma ... because the words are, the mashma, ein a tana ... mishum inyan. You're not moving at all. Don't say l'tzorech gufa ... mutar when it says ein a tana. Maybe it's a kasha byi too. That's what ... You know what this sugya really is? A kasha back on Abaye. What, he answers the ... He answered l'chemya. Once you go to l'chemya, it's not kasha ... That's the sugya. ... Exactly. Who, Tosafos, you think? No, Tosafos is this: the meishiv could have answered in a way that would have been good. He could have answered like something that would have been a good answer. Who, Tosafos, you think? No, Tosafos is this: the meishiv could have answered this. Not only the meishiv could have answered this, the sho'el should have known this. The sho'el should have known this. Then Tosafos says, so what, taka pshat that the sho'el didn't want to? A, because he wanted to hear a different teretz. B, he says, A, we don't pasken like l'chemya anyway. Then back to the question, so why did Rabba answer them l'chemya? And the teretz is Rabba did it because it's mashma like l'chemya, the word. So then Tosafos should have started with that. I mean, in other words, Tosafos is starting really from the middle. Tosafos is saying, huh? Starting backwards. This Tosafos is mamash inside out. It should have started the other way. L'cheira, Rabba says it's like a l'chemya, mashma like a l'chemya. עכשיו, mashma על Abaye. Mama teretz Rabba. Mama teretz Rabba. Again, I would just say like this: eitza Abaye, madua...

Sho'el tafsot. ... because it's mashma ein metaltelin. So now that you established that the Mishnah can make sense like a mechamir, then you can ask me Abaye, and then you can ask me Rabba, and why does this one not say this, one did say? First tell me that it's muchach like who. Don't come at the end and tell me why the mechamir is the sugya over here. Because then you have a ... kasha. What do you mean, so who cares about a mechamir? The teretz, you know why I care about a mechamir? Because ein metaltelin is mashma mechamir. That's the kasha. The teretz to your kasha is the last line of Tosafos. Tosafos should have started with that. Tosafos says, according to Rabba, according to Rabba, lemaaseh ein metaltelin is mashma b'chol inyan. It can, mashma ela Abaye. Ma metaretz Rabba? And then go into your saying, or whatever you want. First tell me why you're asking, why are you bringing the mechamir? Who spoke about mechamir? It's not misudar. It's not, it's completely... We'll soon see the beauty of this Tosafos. Go ahead. Yes. Now, what's the pshat? So let's learn a little bit inside Rishonim. Yeah. I'm just saying, but this is what Tosafos... What Tosafos should have done is like, Tosafos should have began with the yesod. Hatuv ein metaltelin. This is a gevaldige kasha on Abaye and the she'eilah. It's a gevaldige kasha on Rabba, the mefaresh, because according to Abaye, what are you saying would be diyyuk? It's not a diyyuk; it's a פירוש, it's a difficult פירוש. I'm telling you, how do you want me to say it? I'm telling you. Sure. It's, katuv ein metaltelin, mashma b'shum... k'mo shekvar tiretz Rabba le'eil, v'im kein tzarich iyun, amai sho'el Abaye, mai metaretz Rabba. Halacha, teretz is the halacha lekulei. Okay, finished. So there, you talked to the point. מתוך ... קא. תזרי מתפלגת: אי תי אביי, מתוך שיש בו משום תפוסי דמלוה. This is the Gemara, right? Yes. מתוך שיש בו משום תפוסי דמלוה. Does he have our girsa, or our girsa is במלוה אינו תפוס? You remember I once asked you this first shaila? It's pshita. If it's בתפוסי דמלוה, then it's lav, right? Why do you have to say the second nekudah, דאין תפוסי? You remember I asked you this? When we learned the sugya of מתוך שיש בו משום תפוסי דמלוה, ... Why did you ask me this? ... מכלל לאו אתה שומע הן. ... Finish. Pshita, מכלל לאו אתה שומע הן. I asked you this question. You see that we were right. You see that we were right. You see that we were right. במלוה. Beautiful. Keep in mind. It's more, במלוה ... Now, איכא למימר, still see the importance of this. היכי משכחת לה האי לישנא לבעיא? אי משכחת לה, אין מתפוסי כלל, לדידיה נמי קשה. גזולי, גזולי, גזולי. The Ritva starts with this. But Tosafos ends with, and I ask you, why does Tosafos start with this? The Ritva starts with this, because that's talking to the point. Beautiful, no? It's called learning how to learn. Gevaldik. Geshmak starting to enjoy. He says kasha leads to the point. What is in lav eino mitkaven? He says, Imashma. Imashma. ... And if it means you can play around with it, sometimes yes, sometimes not. ... And if it means you can play around with it, sometimes yes, sometimes not. What does he know? He didn't know he could answer ... Gevaldik, gevaldik. What if you learn that eino mitkaven lav davka, what do you want? What's the whole kasha to start? What do you want? The teretz is, it's all based on the word.

It's of eim hataltelin oiso, that's this sugya. Now I understand why Rashi says, and we'll soon get back to it, amai, amai meaning what? Not according to you what you're talking about. What's the eim hataltelin oiso? Amai. How do you translate eim hataltelin? That's the shaila of the sugya. The sugya was not according to me it's pashut such a case; according to you what's the case? Amai. Why does it say the word eim hataltelin oiso? It's a shverer loshon, eim hataltelin oiso. It's extra. There you go, we're going back on the words eim hataltelin oiso. That's this sugya. That's what Rashi means, amai. The question of the sugya was, how do you translate? And if you notice the lashon of the Gemara, what's the lashon of the Gemara? ... eim hataltelin oiso. He stresses, eim hataltelin oiso. What's the eim hataltelin? Now you see amai in Rashi? Let's see the teretz in the Ritva. You see amai in Rashi now, huh? It's a different sugya. Now you see I'm not drinking you a cup. Now you see I wasn't playing games with your mind. Amai, there's a sugya here. What's the eim hataltelin oiso then? That's pshat, what's the case? Because if it's what's the case, the Ritva's right. You didn't know the answer, it's from the Chamudos El. Let's see further. ... Good, good, have a ... The ... even according to him that eim hataltelin ... l'stadim, al d'hava kashya lishna d'mashma eim hataltelin oiso klal, okay? What was difficult? Eim hataltelin mashma klal. U'mishum hachi oser l'Ravi l'mechta heicha teritzlei. ... It was difficult to him also, so he needs a teretz. Please give me a teretz, I also have the same problem. He was discussing this sugya with Abaye. You know why Abaye asked it to Rava? Because it's not ledidi. According to Rashi and Tosafos, notice how Rashi and Tosafos both speak out, ledidi, according to me, it's good. Says the Ritva, that's not true. That wasn't the conversation. It was never a ledidi. It's ledideinu kashya. The question was on both of us. So I need you to give me a teretz like this that can answer what. This answers the way the kasha. Why didn't they answer it to Rav Nachman? You know why they didn't answer it to Rav Nachman? Because they weren't looking to answer it to Rav Nachman. They were looking for a teretz according to us. How are we going to learn the pshat in the Gemara without Rav Nachman? There you go. That's called learning the Rishonim. It gets beautiful. You see what he says? אפילו עליבא דנפשיה, והוא הצטער דלא קמילא. Even according to him, he has a question, because the lishna mashma אינה תרץ כלל. משום הכי אותיב לרבא, למנך דהיכי תרץ לה. He was going bechavrusa with Rava. Rava, you're my best. Abaye is not asking, eisvei a kasha, you're wrong and I'm right and you're wrong. That's how we ask kashas today. Abaye was a tzaddik. Abaye is saying, Rava, how are we going to learn this? Eisvei, I have a kasha, we have a problem together. What's the problem? According to both of us, how are we going to learn? That's why they're not answering it on the Mechaber. You know why? Because he wasn't looking for a Mechaber. When the sho'el asked, he wasn't looking for a teretz on Abaye. He was looking for a teretz maybe we could find another teretz for both of us. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Mamish. There you go. ... answered him according to ... Period. ... means there's times, sometimes yes, sometimes not. That's right. According to Rashi, it's not true. That's right. That's right. They're not arguing, because ... he just says, Give me a teretz. You know what he said to him? The same teretz for you is for me too. I don't have no teretz. I have no teretz. Teretz ... that's all. ... I'm telling you, I wish I could learn the whole Shas. If I could learn Shas, every Rishon. That's all. Finished. Shas, every Rishon. And let me tell you what I think of Rashi now. Rashi learns that they are arguing because it's ... Tosafos is learning ... So then what's the ... The ... can tie ... The ... can tie. Listen carefully.

How do you learn, right? This will work very good if you don't learn. Like, if you learn like the Ritva, it's good, but if you don't learn like the Ritva, then they're arguing, so then you have a problem, right? I'm telling you, so therefore you can't learn the Ritva with point Tos. Now, the Ritva is not learning with the BD, but Rashi and Tos are learning with the BD. I think the pshat is like this. I want this will stop. I think the pshat is—I have to stop. Come on, we'll learn every Ritva, we'll learn, I want to speak Shmach. I think the pshat is like this, we should care. Then the kushya of the sugya was not what's the case, like I told you, because he has a teretz to what's the case, and he has a teretz to what's the case. This is not like the Ritva, then there's no sugya. The kashya is a different kashya. When it says, Ein metaltelin oisah, you're not allowed to take it, right? Ein metaltelin oisah, you're not allowed to take it. So what's the translation of ein metaltelin oisah, right? You're not allowed to take it. The only other explanation could be shelo yitzarech, right? It goes like this: if it's takkeh l'stadim—now this is what I'm trying to explain to you—how do you understand l'stadim? What does that mean? But if it's not true, then Ein metaltelin oisah. Not true, l'stadim—what does that mean? Then it's not Ein metaltelin oisah. L'stadim means sometimes yes, sometimes not. So then it's not. So don't comment. I saw the Chalal Shabbos with stadim, with Chaim Karel. He told you from the Satmar Rav, a very nice story from the Satmar Rav. He once passed by a meat store, and you know, in the old days they used to have the neon lights—neon, the things that would flash. And so they would have Basar kasher, it would flash. So the Satmar Rav is very charif: L'stadim kasher, l'stadim lo. L'stadim kasher, l'stadim lo. Hakedim l'famim, kasher lo, kasher lo, kasher l'famim, kel, l'famim lo. How can you say l'famim? See, but how can you be l'famim? It says, ein mitaltlin. How can you be l'famim? He said, what does it mean? If I'm telling you a halacha l'maaseh, can you write a halacha sefer like this? Mutar, mutar, l'taltel zeh. L'famim kel, l'famim lo. Can't someone talk to me? Don't tell me I'm mitaltlin. If I read you a halacha... Yeah, write me l'stam. We have to figure out when yes, when not, and that's Tosafos kashe. Tosafos says that, because it's mashma like a mechamir. Well, I could start, it's ridiculous. Why wasn't he like, I write halacha sefer: asur, asur lsakel barayon. L'famim kel, l'famim lo. What does that mean? So don't write asur. Yeah, mutar, mutar l... Yeah, asur lgnov. L'famim kel, l'famim lo. Tell me. No, like, situations. Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. He could have said, don't say mitaltlin. To tell me when, yeah, when not. Don't say mitaltlin. No, exactly. What's the teretz? So how do you explain this stira? And this is a major gevort. Listen good, how I hold is beautiful. The teretz is, the translation of ein mitaltlin could be divided. You know where it could be divided? When you don't have a tzorech in the cheftza. Meaning, shelo ltzorech ein mitaltlin. Ein... What's the case of shum maducha? It has a tzorech. Im lav, if it has no tzorech, right? You see? Then you could come and say, ein metaltelin. It says, im lav, ein metaltelin. No, but even in the im lav, ein metaltelin, the ein metaltelin l'tzorech, l'tzorech. Even the—I'm telling you, in the tzorech gufoi, it's not so bad to come and say l'samim ken, l'samim lo, because you see from the beginning that when it's l'tzorech gufoi, it's mutar. So then the im lav is, you could come and say it lays in the im lav that if it's tzorech gufoi is there, ein metaltelin when there's no tzorech gufoi. Shum maducha metaltel. Why? Because it's tzorech gufoi. The im lav, if there's no tzorech gufoi, ein metaltelin, so we understand. But if there's a tzorech gufoi, then it becomes mutar. Huh? The tzorech gufoi, you could see the heter from it from the beginning of the case of shum maducha. Shum maducha, if it has it in, shum, I have a tzorech, because I'm using it for the shum. I'm using the shum that's in it. I understand, but I'm using—huh? It's already ground. It's a test. I'm allowed to move the kli because of the shum. The tzorech gufoi I see already. So when it says, im lav, I could see ein metaltelin means except when it's tzorech gufoi.

Where is the kashya going to be? Tzarich l'kaimoi. Comes along Rav and he says like this: ... I understand, eima tafta is not even מסתבר. You know why? Because mikrai is not included, and gufei it says it clearly in the case. Abaye. That's what Abaye is saying. But according to you, that you have to stick in the word tzarich gufei and tzarich l'kaimoi, then what's the eima tafta, and then how can you say the word eima tafta? Amai? Why say the word eima tafta? This he answers ... Yes. Yes. Amai? Huh? Why you say amai? Amai what? I'm telling you because the kashya is on the eima tafta, the word eima tafta. Let's say you have shum inside a matzah. What do you see from this? That you're allowed to move the kli because of the shum. So when it says v'im lav, what do we see from v'im lav? V'im lav shum, meaning if there's no tzarich gufei, I don't need it to take the shum, right? Eima tafta. So I can understand eima tafta means ... I need it for like a plate. No tzarich gufei. ... No. I'm telling you, v'im lav, and if not, that there's no shum in it, so then I can come and say that once there's no shum, there's two inyanim here. The first thing is that there's no tzarich gufei. That's v'im lav. Even after the Gemara, v'im lav, can I carry something else with it? Huh? Why not? It's a peshat. Tzorech gufo. What's the—I need it. When we say ein metaltelin, the im lav need. If there's no tzorech in it—I'm telling you something. I understand, but when the Gemara says the im lav, what does Gemara mean, the im lav? There's no shom, so you're not allowed to carry it. Right. Meaning? No. No. Ein metaltelin oisah can mean you're not—right? But for what do you need the purpose of the kli, to move it? I'm telling you, if the pshat is you need the kli for something else, for plate, whatever it is, on the inside, whatever it is, that's what the Gemara starts with, I think. Shom, that is halacha of metaltelin oisah. What's the pshat is a special heter agav hashom. There the pshat is, it's a keli she'melachto l'issur. There the Gemara is trying to say is that it's never keli she'melachto l'issur. It never turned into a keli she'melachto l'issur. The im lav, and if not, ein metaltelin oisah. What's the im lav? That it doesn't have anything in it, right? So what's the translation of ein metaltelin oisah? You could come and say oisah means the kli itself. You can always say ein metaltelin oisah means there's a special din that you're not allowed to carry it, it, it. It, it for what purpose? It could either be mechama l'tzel, it, it could be l'tzorech mekomo, but don't say it, it, because then the pshat is I have something in it. I'm being metaltel something else. The word ein mitaplin ois, okay? The translation of studim. How do you translate studim? Sometimes yes and sometimes not. Huh? It says, by medubai shuvim meducha, medaplin, v'lo ein mitaplin ois. Comes the Gemara, it doesn't mean that. Joke. Sometimes yes, sometimes not. What does that mean? What is that? I don't know what the Rishonim are talking about. What do they mean? How can you come and say that ein mitaplin ois is sometimes yes, sometimes not? It says ein mitaplin ois, which is what Tosfos says is a kasha: why Rabba didn't want to learn this whole business, because ein mitaplin means bishul minyan, right? What is the word ein mitaplin ois? So how do you attack up the understanding of studim? What does that mean? The teretz is, from the word ein mitaplin we could understand this studim. It's not something we're making up later and we're saying studim. Something in the words of ein mitaplin ois translates to me with studim. There is something in those words, ein mitaplin ois, that could teach me studim. If the word said v'im lav, lo, then I know loi megamri loi. V'im lav, and if not.

Right, we got me. I'm telling you, that's... We have a girsa. We have a different girsa. Our girsa is, ein metaltelin oisah. But I'm telling you, the pshat in the Gemara is based on the words ein metaltelin oisah. Why? It doesn't say in the Gemara, v'im lav, loi. It doesn't say that, which would mean that there's no other time that you could take this kli. The pshat is ein metaltelin oisah means oisah, the kli. There's no heter to take the kli out. The shulchanim are matir, but the kli itself, the etzem ha-kli, just to move the kli, the kli and only the kli, that's אסור. That's shat in lav. And if not, ein metaltelin — there's no heter to move a kli like this for no, just the kli. Doesn't mean that l'tzorech gufo we won't be matir it. In the words itself, you don't see tzorech gufo is אסור. Here we're saying lav, loi, then I say there's no heter. If it doesn't have shum, there is no way to be matir it. Ein metaltelin oisah. The shaila of the Gemara is, when do we have the right to move this kli? Says the Gemara, heter. You know when I have a heter to move oisah? When we put shum in it. Does that mean l'tzorech gufo is not mutar? Meheicha teisi? Who said that doesn't mean that? I'm telling you, the chiddush of the shum is that it's not even — it's mitaltelin oisah, means the actual kli becomes mutar. That's right, so the kli becomes mutar. Kli she'melachto l'issur, kli she'melachto l'issur, the pshat, it's a keli asur, but we're matir l'tzorech gufo. You can say the shum never tells the kli; mutar l'taltel את השום, other... I'm telling you, good. Of course. I can show me... The shum is mutar because it's inside muktzah? It's not mutar, but the fact that it's inside the muktzah, maybe there is a reason to be matir also the shum. The kli with it, you're making what I say even better. You're saying it even better. Either way, the nekudah is that the shum becomes a chelek of the maduch. Then there's a heter of metaltelin oisah, tzad is the kli. The Gemara never discussed, the Gemara never discussed l'maaseh in Hilchos muktzah, and I'll bring you the biggest raya to it. Let's Hilchos ... anyway. Huh? Just say it, because he's saying l'didi, l'didi means I hold it's stam. Once you say l'didi means I hold it's stam, which means the sugya is l'stam. How do you learn the kashering with money? What's the teretz of ... You couldn't think of a teretz ...? Same thing, this nekudah. How could you come and have a hava amina that Abaye didn't know that ... he can give this teretz? What's the not to know, Abaye? What kind of question are you asking? The teretz is very poshut, because if you learn l'stadim, l'stadim is a whole new pshat in the Gemara then. Ein metaltelin oisah means ein metaltelin oisah mitzad the kli. We're not discussing about ... muktzah. We want to know the kli. When is there a heter to move this kli? When it's agav hashum. V'im lav, and if not, ein metaltelin oisah. You're not allowed to even metaltel it. And I'll tell you even one step further. Yeah, Abaye, it's the same teretz. What's the pshat? Ein metaltelin oisah. You're not allowed to be metaltel it. When are you allowed to metaltel it? Meaning, when does a keli she'melachto l'issur, not even have a shem keli she'melachto l'issur? This is what I told you, where there's shum. Shum, the pshat is it's not even a keli shemelachto l'issur. That's the sugya in the Gemara. Oisah, the she'eilah is the kli itself. You want to know if a keli shemelachto l'issur is mutar l'tzorech gufoi? Yes. That doesn't say that in Eimek HaTalmud. Maybe that's the kasha. If the pshat is that we're going to be matir l'tzorech gufoi, pshat, like the Rishonim explained, like we said, that whenever you put food inside, right, what happens? You can come and say it turns into a keli shemelachto l'heter. But when it comes to tzorech mekomo, how do you turn into a keli shemelachto l'heter? How does a keli shemelachto l'issur turn into a keli shemelachto l'heter? It goes tzorech mekomo. Then we have a problem, in the Tosafos. That was the question. Ona bai. Good, ona bai. Be careful. Ona bai. That was like this. What if I started like this? According to the Rishonim, it would start in ka'amar.

According to the shita that was סברין כאמר, what, are they crazy? What, the Gemara is out of its mind? What are you talking about? Because, here, the Gemara says, ... lav davka, lav davka, because ... lav davka. What are you talking about? You can't. The teretz is, notice that it never said in lav loi, meaning you can never carry it. Not the case. There's heterim of tiltul. The question is, how are you allowed to make a keli, a keli שמלאכתו לאיסור, that there's no issur in carrying it? And the teretz is, to make it into a keli שמלאכתו להיתר by putting in shul. Right? Meaning it's become batel to the shul. The in lav, and if not, then the pshat is it's always a keli שמלאכתו לאיסור that we will be matir. Here, we're going to use the kli and say there's a heter in the kli, right? How does the heter work? The heter works is that we turn the kli into a keli שמלאכתו להיתר. Not to pshat that it's not a keli שמלאכתו לאיסור because it becomes batel to the food. There's a new heter, a new heter called kli. No, agavashum is a taich. It's not even a keli שמלאכתו לאיסור. Agavashum means there's no kli here. There's a certain concept, agavashum. Agavashum means—here, that's why I asked you a kasha: would agavashum work by a מוקצה מחמת חסרון כיס? Would agavashum work with something which is מוקצה מחמת גופו? And the answer is yes. Yes. Why? Because the pshat is, I take the kli and I say it's not מוקצה. Mash'ein kein, to טירא גופו... That's another type of heter. The end of the pshat is, I take the keli shemelachto l'issur, and I don't make it ois keli, but I make it ois issur. I make it what? By shum in the melucha, ani mevatel ta kli. By keli shemelachto l'issur, I'm mevatel it as issur. So it would only work by muktzah machmas issur, by nechsaron kis, or by something else; it would work. Shum would work. Shum would be able to be mevatel if the shum is made to be there, it would be mevatel the muktzah. Mashenkin by keli shemelachto l'issur, there's another chiddush. Tzorech gufo becomes now keli shemelachto l'heter, but by tzorech mekomo you can't say that anymore. How does it become keli shemelachto l'heter now? You need mekomo. The keli doesn't change; you need mekomo. The teretz is, once you have a tzorech, it will be matir it. It didn't turn to keli shemelachto l'heter. So how could you come and say, harei ela mutarin? That's the kasha. According to me, tzorech gufo, I understand this. I can learn when it says what, that you're not allowed to carry it, and it's what, l'tzorech gufo mutar. But according to you, that tzorech mekomo is mutar, how could you come and say that you're not allowed to carry it? How could you say, nimlad eino taltul, you're allowed to be metaltel it for tzorech mekomo? You, that hold, you are byin that hold, tzorech mekomo mutar, eino taltul na'uso. Okay. Lav davka. What does it mean, lav davka? I'm going to learn that whenever there's a tzorech, it's mutar, peirush. I learned that that's also called a keli shemalachto l'heter now, and that was a svara in the Gemara. For some reason, mali mali, I hold mali mali, which means that just once I have a tzorech in it, the kli becomes a keli shemalachto l'heter. Eilu. This case, what? When the case that the keli is heter, that you're allowed to be metaltel. But when the keli is not heter, which is mechamer l'tzel, that's the pshat: ein metaltelin. You're not allowed to be metaltel it. Because after we showed the sevara, is Abaye, that he held that every tzorech mekomo comes out like gufo, so then the keli turns into a heter. But mechamer l'tzel is different, right? Like we spoke yesterday, according to Ritzpah, right? I'm saying the answer is ein metaltelin. It's come and say, Abaye, what shadyu, what shadyu, he didn't know you can answer mechamer l'tzel. He didn't know that you could put back mechamer l'tzel and patach the mista problem. That's the problem. Diamai, the ein metaltelin. What do you do with ein metaltelin? From where? Okay, you guys, what's the shaila? From where? I mean, if it says ein, it says ein metaltelin, so ein metaltelin means ein.

So sometimes yes, sometimes not. What does it mean, ein metaltelin? So the teretz is very poshut. If you read the words of the Gemara, the Gemara never said, Shomin maducha metaltelin, which would imply any other time, ein metaltelin. Well, let's see the girsa of the Ritva, dim lav loi. That means period, no. And even if the girsa of the Gemara would have been maybe, ein metaltelin, period. So then it's mashma, ein metaltelin, finished. There's no heter. Once you have ein metaltelin, oysa, all extra. What's the point of, A, first of all, you have to say the dim lav, and even if you're saying dim lav, why can't you say dim lav loi? And even if you're saying dim lav loi, why couldn't you say dim lav loi, ein metaltelin? Once you say dim lav loi, ein metaltelin, oysa, the teretz is it. The kli, the way it is, that you want to be matir the kli, there's only two ways to do it. A says the Gemara chiddush that you're matir the kli by saying the shum is inside, so it becomes batel. Or there's a new heter, a keli she'melachto l'issur, to make it into a tzorech gufo, then it becomes a kli she'melachto heter, so it's not oysa anymore. And a Chavami, a kli she'melachto l'issur is not mutar to be metaltel unless it turns into a different type of kli. Now it's a saw, and then it turns into a nutcracker, so it's not a saw anymore, it's a nutcracker. That's what Abaye came and said. I understand the words ein metaltelin, oysa, but according to you, according to you, saying because ein metaltelin, even though it's tzorech gufo, I made it into a keli she'melachto l'heter now. Masha'enkin according to you, that's mutar only even with tzorech mekomo. Yes, so the kli is the same. Tzorech mekomo just tells me I'm allowed to use a kli she'melachto l'heter for my own usage. But it's the same as ... I said, you now use this melucha, and you're telling me l'tzorech mekomo, you're allowed. Comes along Abaye and asks kasha not knowing that you can be metaretz that even a keli shemelachto l'issur, when I use it l'tzorech mekomoi, is also becoming a keli shemelachto l'heter. Josh, my complication l'tzorech l'heter when it's tzorch gufoi. He didn't know that Rava goes so far to say that even in terms of a keli shemelachto l'heter, even by mekomoi. Like Rashi says before, it becomes megufoi. Like Rashi says, from the beginning of the sugya, from bottom Rashi. Rashi is clearly—how does it work? It becomes a tzorech of gufoi. Like the Ritva says, yes, it becomes a tzorech of gufoi. It looks—every mekomoi means that I have a tzorech of gufoi before mekomoi, however it works, okay? Comes along and he answers, so mimeila you have no kasha on me anymore, because this, when it says ein metaplin oisah, you know what that is? When it's l'chamul tzel. He knew that there's a case where he asers it. That was the kasha originally, where he didn't know there's a case where he asers. He knew there's such a case, but he didn't know how to learn the words ein metaplin oisah, and that's why Rashi says, ... Rashi learns that the sugya, the Gemara's, lidi d'i ein metaplin oisah, the words. But l'dichu, not pshat what is the case going to be. L'dichu, the word ein metaplin oisah. What do you do with ein metaplin? Shlomo points to me, I can answer the ein metaplin, the words of ein metaplin. You can't be metaretz ein metaplin oisah. That's why Rashi says ... and that's the sugya, and the answer, l'chamul tzel, means where there is takanah tzorech, like the Ritva says, yesi, l'chamul tzel kol shehu l'tzorech. Nothing changes in the kli. Nothing changes in the kli. The first teretz of the Ritva is maybe klerst that something changed in the kli, because it's tzorech hakli. So maybe there's a klal of heter. But the second side of it was klor that was, it's a kli shelo l'tzorech, mamash shelo l'tzorech. This kli, the kli, shem melachto l'issur, and there's a heter, and there's no heter l'chamul l'tzel. The question is, so what's the ... issur? The way it is, when it's a kli shemelachto l'issur. Good? ... Mishnah ... In the days of ... Mishnah. Mishnah זו. ... People would be mechalel Shabbos. They were carrying in the street. And since they were carrying in the street, what happened? Gittos are ... that you stamp for the oil, for the wine press. Gat. Gat is what they press for the grapes. We had it in Bava Basra, remember? There's two types of gittos. Wine press, remember? We learned this. Okay, now, comes along the Gemara. The Gemara says like this: a klal. What's the klal? אמר רב לזר: קינים, קנין, פיקס, מקלות, וגלוסטרא, ומדוכה, all of this was ... קודם התרת כלים.

All these four Mishnayot were learned before Atarat Keilim, yeah? Kodem Ataras Keilim l'Mishnah means they were taught. These Mishnayos were taught and learned and written before they were matir all the keilim. Meaning that even though if you read the Mishnah, asur, asur, asur, asur, asur, you should know by now it's mutar, mutar, mutar, mutar. Why? Because in all these four cases, lachar haMishnah, after we learned that they were matir the keilim... Even if it was written, but it was said, it was taught, yeah. And... Yisrael. You just started, you just started. Back, back, let's... Says the Gemara like this: What's kanim? Now we learn, lo sidra kanim, lo netilasan. Not the sidur and not the netilah of the kanim docheh es haShabbos. It's not docheh Shabbos, yeah? Setting up the kanim. Says Rashi, what are you setting up the kanim for? So first of all, he says like this: Lo sidra kanim shehayu nosnim b'maareches lechem hapanim, bein challah l'challah. They would put between each challah, l'hafridam, likanes haruach beinayhem, shelo yisafshu, in order they shouldn't get dry. I don't know, truthfully, b'emes today we know it's the opposite. The more that you put air in it, the more it dries up. It shouldn't get green, it shouldn't mold. It's afish. Eepush, eepush mold. Hot, hot. Wet together. You need, okay, good. So what does he say that it's what's it for? They did it. Lechem lechem. What's the tilason? Min hamaracha yashan, from the old maracha, from the old maracha. Now the emes is, you have to know, why does the Mishnah feel to say both? You don't put and you don't take off. I mean, if you don't put, especially you don't take off. Huh? I mean, there's not much here. The halacha is, it's muktsa. Finish. What do you want? No, it's going to, it's going to stay all day. It's going to... Good. So the halacha is, you don't put the new one in, right? Right. Again, you don't put the new one in. You don't put the new one in. So if you don't put the new one in, chalk, you don't take the old one out, right? Huh? The Mishnah. That means new one in. I'm asking, I'm asking. The kanim? I'm asking, they didn't put in that because when did they... I'm telling you, if sidur lechem hapanim is a mitzvah, if bechol, then it's muktsa, so to take it away, especially it's muktsa. Take off the kanim. Yeah. What's the point? Maybe means like... Maybe I'm not understanding. You're taking off made of Shabbat kanim, and this only maracha stands, and you're putting without kanim from Erev Shabbat, lechem mishנה. But Shabbat you make a new lechem, and you put also without kanim. I’m gonna ask you a question. If for the new maracha you don’t put in, which means you don’t put in the ketores, because it’s muksa, kol shekein for the maracha yeshanah to take it out, which is no mitzvah, it’s definitely muksa. Taking out the maracha, you’re not taking the maklos. It says maracha yeshanah. That’s a machlokes, you and Rashi. No, no. Maracha yeshanah, misalek hamaracha yeshanah. Min, min hamaracha yeshanah. Min. Oh, so you don’t see Rashi, v’lo נטילתן? V’lo נטילתן. Very good. V’lo נטילתן. Who? Min hamaracha yeshanah. What did you say, Gershon? What did you read? Oh, Yazi, you had a question? If you can’t put it, even though there’s an inyan to put it, there’s a purpose for it, kol shekein you can’t take it away when there’s no purpose. Fine, what’s the problem? You know the case? You know the case? So what’s the case? Lo sidur hakanim. What does that mean? That’s not doicheh Shabbos? V’lo נטילתן. So if lo sidur hakanim is not doicheh Shabbos, then נטילתן is for surely not doicheh Shabbos.

To take off the keilim. Keilim are there for a purpose. What's the purpose? The purpose is to serve. Fine. So the mitzvah is, it's a mitzvah. We'll soon see the Rishonim, it's called a mitzvah d'Oraisa. Seder ha'kanim is a mitzvah d'Oraisa, okay? And if it's true— What's the difference? I have pashut. No, it's kol shekein. If it's seder ha'kanim, you're not allowed to put it in, because even though there's a mitzvah, lo yitilasi, you have to tell me that. There's a reason to tell me lo yitilasi docheh Shabbos. Just say it's mutar, isn't it? Seder kanim is not docheh Shabbos. Metzivah tal is a question that sheyidocheh the Shabbos. Can I explain? Another question you have to ask. Another question you have to ask. Why does the Gemara, why does the Gemara not say, kanim muktzah b'Shabbos? You want to tell me a halacha, that the kanim are muktzah. Held the bread. Before they were matir keilim, there's a kli, a kli, which we'll גרד see in the Rishonim or R' Akiva Eiger that it's not a kli, but in the meantime let's say it's a kli. And since it's a kli, before they were matir all the keilim, you have a problem, this is the beis hamikdash. How do they move this to beis hamikdash? And the teretz is, אין הכי נמי, it's not doicheh the Shabbos. It's not doicheh Shabbos. The question that I have for you is like this: If the siddur kanim is not doicheh, so then the tefillas taanis should be docheh. Why would the Gemara even talk about it? I mean, if you're not Rabbi Masadi, you're not going to make the lechem hapanim on Shabbos, right? You're not going to tell... What's the part of the avodah? It's only part, but again, like you can put the new ones in. But if it's kosher, if you can't put in the new ones, kosher, you can't take out the old ones. That's the kashya Rishonim have. If you would have done hachanah, you would have known. That's good. Now, so question number one, if you want to learn how to learn, like the derech that we have over here, just to learn the Gemara, to learn how to learn. The first thing you have to ask is, ma katuv פה? What's the point of writing it twice? If siddur kanim is asur, then the tefillah is asur. What's the shaylah? A second question: Did the Mishnah ever come and say that it's muktzah? Other cases of glustra and all these things is muktzah. Here, we talk about the avodah. We never discussed the kanim muktzah, but the avodah. That's the next sugya. The next sugya is glustra, this, this. Here, for some reason, the Gemara didn't discuss the kanim being muktzah, but rather came and discussed the avodah being doicheh or not doicheh Shabbos. Notice that. Keep this in mind, because it's a very important diyuk. Because, im yirtzeh Hashem, I will show you a lot of Rishonim has nothing to do with muktzah. This has nothing to do with muktzah. We're not even going to be so sure what it is. And I want you to know something: if you would have learned the Gemara and the Rashi and the Tosafos and the Ritva, you'd never know this. You'd never know this. What do I teach you? I teach you to read what it says. Did the Gemara ever say muktzah? The Gemara has to say that these things are muktzah. The Gemara says, doicheh Shabbos and eino doicheh Shabbos. Since the Gemara says that you have to, a light bulb has to go off in your mind. Hey, wait a second. Who said the problem is muktzah? And the answer is, well, אולי maybe not. Maybe not. Al kol panim, what I do have is a question. If the pshat is eino doicheh, the avodah is eino doicheh Shabbos, right? So the mareh, to take out the mareh, I mean, that's definitely not avodah. If the chiddush of the Mishnah is not the muktzah, but rather the halachah of doicheh avodah and not doicheh avodah, so if it's not doicheh avodah l'gabei sidur, then it strengthens the kasha of lo niti'osefes pesulos. What's happening in the kli? It's not even avodah. It's not even avodah. Yeah. You don't even know what you're saying. If you knew what you were saying. Let's take a look at Tosafos's kasha, and he says like this, Tosafos. Tosafos. Lo sider kohenin. Tosafos like this. ... מוידי קושיא. ... everybody here.

In the Beis Hamikdash, there's no shvus. Muktzah is only derabbanan. So how could there be a derabbanan muktzah? No, the whole Beis Hamikdash won't apply. It's only issur derabbanan. It's muktzah. Answers Tosfos like this: אף על גב במקדש שגזרו פעם במצוה. We do find that sometimes, where there's a tzorech, even in the Beis Hamikdash they assered shvusim. כי הכא דקאמרי מקראי, וכי שי מחלל מס השבת. Now Tosfos doesn't tell me why. Tosfos does not tell me why certain shvusim, yes, certain shvusim, not. All he says is certain shvusim, when they felt it necessary, they assered. Why? Tosfos says, You're right, shvusim are mutar, but sometimes shvusim attack also in the Beis Hamikdash. So, not all the shvusim of Shabbos fall out the window, only certain ones. If you look at the Ritva, Tosfos mechadesh a teretz, that even though there's no shvus in the Beis Hamikdash, yes there is. From this sugya you see that there is. Sometimes there is. So how come sometimes yes, sometimes not? When do we know yes, when do we know not? What is the basis? Which one? Why certain shvusim, yes, certain shvusim, not? The Ritva puts it in two words. You know what the Ritva puts in? This is gevaldig. Listen to the lashon of the Ritva. He says like this: אי... הוא דוחה את השבת. Okay. ... Now, that means the mitzvah d'Oraisa, you can be ... the kanim. Says the Ritva two yesodos. You gotta know that the sidur kohanim itself is also d'Oraisa. This is what I started with. Remember I told you, what is sidur kohanim? And the answer is that itself is d'Oraisa. You hear? Sidur kohanim is d'Oraisa. Why? I asked you, is it an avodah? Remember I asked you, is it an avodah? Yes, it is an avodah, because it is sidur kohanim avodah. Why? It's d'Oraisa. So the Ritva, you with me? Oh, so then what's the problem? He says like this: ... Right? ... Okay. ... Even though there's no ... here. ... What does he say? Not ... itself. ... Again, saying a ... Okay. You with me on the Ritva? The Ritva says like this: First of all, you have to know if sidur kohanim is d'Oraisa or d'Rabbanan. If it's d'Oraisa, then how can muktzah be docheh? Remember I asked you this kasha: how can a muktzah be docheh? And the teretz is because the chachamim are able ... davar min haTorah b'shev v'al taaseh. You hear? They said to you, don't do the sidur kohanim in the Beis HaMikdash. They can't tell you to go be over a d'Oraisa, so they can tell you not to do a d'Oraisa. ... Shev v'al taaseh. Shev v'al taaseh. That's a klal. Follow the ... Every Mesechta twenty times. They don't tell you ... Listen to the ... chachamim. We learn out from a pasuk. You listen to them. They have a koach l'akor davar min haTorah b'shev v'al taaseh. They're able to be l'akor davar. The sheva alkach, okay? Comes to be, when he says, see the din is, is meraisa. So how can a derabonon muktzah? Now, bichlal, it's only derabonon anyway, and there's no derabonon in the Beis Hamikdash. Muktzah.