Shabbos 124b: Broken Kelim, Hachanah, and Discarded Objects as Muktzeh

Transcript

Cheres tana. Okay, this is the sugya we're going to do today. Cheres tana. Small piece of cheres, mutar l'taltel b'chatzer. You're allowed to move it here in the chatzer. Aval b'tamah litlo, but in the tamah you can't move it. Chatzer, reshus hayachid, that's you're allowed. But in the tamah it's not. Nachman didei amar... The tamah. It's not a reshus hayachid, not a reshus harabim. Nachman didei amar, afilu b'karmelis. Aval b'reshus harabim lo. Rava amar, afilu b'reshus harabim. One says only in the chatzer, one says even in the karmelis, and the third one says no, even in the reshus harabim. It's a shever keli, it's a cheres, it's a piece of scrap, scrap. Says the Gemara, v'azda Rava l'taimei. Rava that's matir even the reshus harabim goes l'taimei, goes according to his reason. Why? D'Rava ka azil b'ritka d'mechuza. He was going in the place, Ritka is the name of a place, Ritka d'Mechuza. Here, what happened? Asvasoyi misanei tina. His shoe got dirty from dirt. Asa shamai, came his shamash, shakal chaspa, he took a piece of scrap from a keli, d'ka mechaper lei, and he was cleaning the... cheres, just a piece of scrap from a clay, from a cheres, from a clay. Ramu bei Rabbanan kala. So the Rabbanan started to talk against him. Ra'ituyei, you see him, chalshabes, they put up signs already. Ramu bei kala. They started to talk against him. Amalei, lo mistayed lei gemiri. Yeah? It's bad enough that you didn't learn, yeah? Yemigmar nami mi-gemiri. Rashi explains something like that. Let's see the lashon of Rashi. Ma osa, ma motar, ela migmar nami melabed. No, it's bad enough that you don't learn yourself; you want to teach other guys wrong too. Yeah? Yeah, in other words, it's bad enough that you don't know. You have to show everybody you don't know. Right? Why? He said like this: Mi lo av chazi lechsivei mano? Is it not ra'ui, this strap, lechsivei mano? Ha nami chazi lebidi. Therefore it's chazi to me. Rashi explains like this. It's very important. Machlokes here, Rashi and the Rach. Yeah, to move, to pick it up, not to tell down. To pick it up and clean. So Rashi explains. How does Rashi explain? Rashi is like this. The Rava amar, Rava says, af b'reshus ha-rabim. Yeah? Even in the reshus ha-rabim it's mutar. Why? Kivan de-bechatzer kli hu, be'alma nami lo pakashem kli minei. Very important Rashi. Since it's be'alma kli, yeah? Kivan de-bechatzer kli hu. Why in the chatzer kli? So Rashi explains, because in the chatzer it's usable, this chaspa to cover barrels, to cover bottles, because there's a lot of bottles in the chatzer. In the old days, you know, it's interesting, because I remember in Israel it was like that. They used to have the chatzer was full with like bottles and bottle caps. This is what it is. Since you have the bottles all over in the chatzer, right? So this chaspa is usable as a kli, where? In the chatzer. They used to keep it outside. Empty bottles. Milk. It delivers the same thing. The way it was, I mean, I don't know if you remember. You remember Israel years ago? You were never in Israel? I was in Israel, but I don't remember. You don't remember this? You remember the bottles? They used to, like the soda bottles, for example, soda bottles, and the colas and everything. They used to do it in there. They used to keep it outside in the yard. There was no room in the house, a small little house, small little, you know, they used to keep it in the yard. Some of you in apartment buildings, you know, we used to live in Etz Chaim. Yeah, that's the answer. In the private houses, like in Fez. You know what Fez is? Shekun, you know any shekun? You know what that is? Oh, come on. The suburb of Tel Aviv. Suburb of Petah Tikva, excuse me. You never heard of Petah Tikva? Petah Tikva? You never heard of Petah Tikva? It's a suburb of Petah Tikva. Suburb of Petah Tikva called Fez. Fez was taken right from the Arabs, and you want to know something? The Arabs don't even want it. That's how bad it is. It's one of the parts of Israel that the Arabs are happy they got rid of. It was unpaved roads. I remember I went, it was pasha unpaved. The roads were not paved. People didn't have telephones. Maybe now some of them have telephones, but the roads are unpaved, and you come, everybody has...

The house and the yard, and we are full with bottles and stuff. It's just old-fashioned Israel. Old-fashioned Israel, that's what it is. Yeah, but that's what it is. It's like a junkyard. We have bottles here. The kids are—the bottles, colored bottles, the whole thing. The kid says in the Gemara, since it's lo yimchaser bo kli, lo chaser lo, it doesn't lose its shem kli. Let's take a look at Rashi, lididi, where Rava himself talks. Lididi, likinuach, meaning for me to wipe my shoes. Af al gav d'lo shchich, even though it's not common for what? For my foot to get dirty, still it has a shem kli because of the chaser, okay? Yes, it is. Exactly. No. And since it's a shem kli b'chaser, it has a shem kli forever. Makes no difference. Since something has a shem kli, Rashi's shita is in Rava that it remains a kli. The answer is very simple. If you learn clearly Rashi, this is what we're speaking about. It's an open Rizva. Rizva is shatn Rashi's shita. Two things you need: shchiach and shem kli, meaning, af al gav d'lo shchiach, and that should be a problem, it has a shem kli, and that's why it's not a problem. That's why Rashi repeats it. A, when something has a shem kli, you hear? When something has a shem kli, what happens? It doesn't lose its shem kli. Oh, so that's the chiddush. Af al gav d'lo shchiach. It doesn't go. Rashi already said it. No, that's what I'm trying to say. Rashi is saying, l'umat the fact that it's lo shchiach. Meaning, I would come and say that if the tafkid I need it for is shechiach, then I could borrow the Shem kli from the chatzer. But if it's not shechiach, what I'm using it for, maybe, if in the reshus that I'm in, I never need it. Let me explain. It's very, very simple. It doesn't make sense. Meaning, if let's say it's not shechiach to use what I'm using it for, then I could come and say, who cares that it has a shem kli? Even though not, because of the shem kli. Okay, okay, it doesn't bother me. Okay, so this is Rashi's shita, okay? And this is how the Ritva explains. Two things we have to issue: the usage that you're using is shechiach or lo shechiach, meaning from Rashi's mashma that if it would be shechiach, then you wouldn't have to come on to the fact that it's a kli where? In the chatzer. That's what's mashma from Rashi, you see? Because it's not shechiach, therefore what do you have to come on to? The chatzer, the shem kli. This is Rashi's shita. Yeah. Now, on the other side... No, that's the wrong... Right, afilu shelo... Right, the kli, tevuah d'Rabim. Go ahead. Good. It's not shchiach, and not what? What does he say? Two Lashonos. It's not shchiach and not what? It's not chatzer, v'lo shchiach l'shavik. So what do you have to do? Therefore, you have to come and say, b'chatzer. Go ahead. That's what the point is. Since it's not chatzer, since it's not chatzer, that's it. Therefore, what happens? You have to go. Okay, let's take a look how the Rach... That's right. That's what I wanted to show you. Keep those words in mind. It's not—what? Lo shchiach makes it that you can't call it a kli, so we borrow the fact that b'chatzer it's a kli. That's what the Ritva adds. Since it's not shchiach, once it's not shchiach, it can't become a kli here. So then where is it a kli? It's a kli in the chatzer. The kli in the chatzer is good enough to make it a kli over here.

Let's take a look now at the Rach, how the Rach learns. Nu? Ho'il v'ro'ui l'chasot b'kli shemechatzer. Nu? Nu, nu, nu. Let's, let's. Nu, v'rava savar... That's the ... and therefore can't make it into a shem kli, so therefore we borrow the shem kli from the chatzer. Rava savar... You look at the Rach. The Rach never does what Rashi does. Rashi brings it back to the chatzer and the kli. The Rach just says it's roi over here, that's all. Since I could use it over here, therefore I'm allowed to be metaltel over here. Rashi says that it's not good enough over here. So the Rach doesn't care about that, obviously. But the Rach is mashma. If you look at the Rach, the Rach seems to learn... That's right. In other words, what? Tell me which pshat is meduyak in the Gemara. Let's see. Rashi or the Rach? Let's see why. Let's see the words. Mi loi hava chazi l'chasurei b'emana? No. Rashi learns. It's the Rashi doesn't talk about it. All he says is... Rach, Rach. Right, it will be in the chatzer. What would happen? Miloi hava chatzer l'chsimei mana. So hacha nami. Hacha nami, so we use the same svara here. For my teeth. No, it's not like the Ra. Exactly like the Ra. Mamash exactly like the Ra. Again, when you read the Gemara, okay, somebody, come on. It's hard. If the shoe's dirty and he uses the piece of cheres, what does the Gemara say? The Gemara says, v'di chazi, so to me it's good, I need it. Comes along Rashi and he says, what does that mean? Plus the fact that b'chatzer it's right to be a kli, okay? Plus the fact that b'chatzer it's right to be a kli. Why? Because here it's lo shchiach. Adds the Ritva, so meileh it can't be a kli, and if it can't be a kli, you need a kli. So what do I do? I borrow the fact that it's a kli b'chatzer. Good? That's Rashi and the Ritva. Comes along the Ra and the Ra says, or later, I don't know, v'di chazi לי, finished, I can use it. That's what he says. What happens? You take a look at the Ra, he's not gores to the fact that before it was a kli. He doesn't care about all that. Pshat? The doyk in the Gemara. The Gemara never said that I need the fact that it's ראוי to be a kli somewhere else. He just says the same way it's chazi להיות kli somewhere else, it's chazi here also. That's Ra. Hacha nami. V'di chazi, for me that's all, it's good enough. I want to show you. So watch the shitos, what they are. מה המחלוקת, okay? What's the pshat in the machlokes? I also want to speak about, to get back to this part. I want to show you the Rishonim's kasha. The Rishonim have a kasha: once this is ... b'di'eved, yeah, it fits for me, then every piece of junk and every rock and everything should be no muktzah l'di'eved. Everything, l'di'eved. ... I'm a little confused. You have no ... here. But why wouldn't that be the case? But you know it's not true. There's a muktzah machmas gufo. What do you mean? How do you have that muktzah machmas gufo? L'di'eved, I need it. That's the Rishonim's kasha. He says like this: ... b'chaspa d'shari b'shulchan ... b'chaslei ... af al gav d'leka lei toras kli, higora vadai mipisu keilim sheyesh lahem beis achiza, ... hainu ta'ama d'muktzah, ... l'maaseh it had its original hachanah. It has its original שם כלי. ... stone, ... a kli could go and throw it should be chaser, ...

Here, what is he saying? Here, l'maaseh he had a chazakah, because this originally came from a kli. This is how the Ramban learns. Let's see how the Rashba is going to say. Never had a kli, never started. Here it started as a kli and it broke. Right. That's why you can say l'didi. This is the Ramban. Since it started as a kli, cheres, cheres, the scrap, the broken pieces of a kli, right? Starts as a kli, and it comes along the Rashba, and he says like this: Shirei kucha... what? Yeah. What is it? Huh? Reb Shimon? ... mishum d'shayich bo. The Ramban is saying a pshat. The Ramban is saying, if you could always come and say, ... chazi li, there's no muktzah machmas gufo. And the teretz is, muktzah machmas gufo is whenever it started as a kli. If it started as a kli, then there's no problem, muktzah machmas gufo. Says the Ramban, says the Rashba, cheres taan mutar l'taltel b'cheres mishum d'shayich bo keilim. D'chazi l'chisuy b'manah, v'davka cheres asui meshurei keilim, aval even d'lo asui meshurei keilim loי, v'hainu taima d'chol ani shmaita. This is pretty much like the Ramban, yeah? Pretty much like the Ramban. Well, there was one more sheet I wanted to show you, right? What was the third one I told you? The Ramban, the Rashba, and the Ritva, right? Okay, give me the Ritva. Who was the meiri that I wanted? The Ritva. But what was the three Rishonim on there? Okay. Sounds like... But I'll show you one word different. I want to show you the difference. One word different. Yes. It's יסודי the same, but the Ramban adds one word. I'll just show it to you. Where is... Rashi says, ... חס לי ריק ... ואם תאמר ... חושש דיקא ... כלומר ... יש לומר, דשאני הכא, דעשו משיירי כלי גמור. וחזי נמי בחצר לחצר את הכלי. הא לאו הכי, אין תשמיש זה כדאי לעשות בו כלי לכתחילה. Do you see a difference between the Ramban and the Ritva? You know what, let Yossi... Yossi's good at this stuff. Come here. Yossi, tell me, what is the difference between the Ramban and the Ritva? Send them over package, email, email. The Ramban and Ritva give one twist. Like I told you, remember I told you there's one twist between them? He's gonna catch it. I think he'll catch it. He just learned the Ritva. Ramban is ... העולם, no? Right, and it goes on to the next page. Go ahead, no. What's the difference? One talks kli, the other one talks hachanah. See the difference? Yeah? Beautiful. Now, the Ratz says simple. Ratz says, ovdei, this is not a... All of a sudden, the Ramban both say the same svara. One says what? Kli, and the other one talks hachanah. Notice that one talks kli and one talks hachanah. It says kli. The Ritzva says since it came from a kli, this is not enough to make it into a kli, but since it came from an old kli, full kli. The Ramban says this, since it came from an old kli, it's considered muchan. Yeah? Machanah lo nachanah. It's barur, right? Let's talk a little halacha here. Very interesting.

Sounds like this. Kol hakeilim shenishberu, huh? You don't have it? You don't have the... Kol hakeilim shenishberu, afilu b'Shabbat, shivreihem mutar l'taltelam. Uvilvad sheyihyu meshummalacha, kegon shivrei hareiva lechatot bo hachavit, shivrei suchi lechatot bo yaftach, aval eino ruyim lshum melacha lo. What do we pasken like? No? Tanakama, right? Yes. Kol hakeilim shenishberu afilu b'Shabbat, shivreihem mutar l'taltelam, uvilvad sheyihyu meshum melacha. Tanakama. Hatichat cheres shenishbera b'chol. What was the case of shivrei keilim? Afilu b'Shabbat. Hatichat cheres shenishbera b'chol. Mutar lechasot bo kli, mutar ltaltelah, afilu bmakom sheein kelim metzuyin sham lechasot ba. Dakar lyashmi bo diyom, nitrut lgarbitsh mibo diyom, afilu ltaltelah, keivan shebitlah miyot od kli. Let's take a look at the Beis Yosef's kasha. Here. Hatichat cheres shenishbera bchol. The Tur. Hatichat cheres shenishbera bchol. Yeah? When the sugya of cheres is talking about what? Shenishbera bchol. It broke on the weekday. Let's take a look at the Beis Yosef's kasha. Nira, yeah? Shehu mima shekatuv haTosfos there. Where does this come from? From Tosfos. Rava ma'afilu b'shut rabim, u'behanazah nishberu me'erev Shabbat, kaamar. V'i nishberu b'Shabbat, ha amrinan pega noitel, d'Rava it lei muktzah l'chol shekein noled. Yeah? If it's on Shabbos, there's a problem of what? Of nolad, because Rava holds of muktzah, holds of nolad. So this cheres says the Beis Yosef can't be that it was on Shabbos, because... Tosfos, right? Therefore he says, shenishberu b'chol. Ach teima, keivan d'chazi l'chasos kli, afilu nishbar b'Shabbat nami lav nolad hu, l'ta'amei kama d'Rabbi Yehuda. How could the sugya of cheres—yeah, you with me, Eliezer? How could the sugya—yeah, yeah, good, good—how could the sugya of cheres be talking about what? On chol, because it can't be on Shabbos because of nolad. I thought you said it's not nolad. Isn't that what the Tana Kama says? It's not nolad? Right. If we pasken like the Tana Kama, so why nishberu b'chol? Huh? That people b'Shabbat kacha. Tana Kama. Who? Tana Kama, meaning—meaning that it's what? It's a shaylah of hachanah u'noled, right? But once you pasken that it's a new kli, then it's not a problem, right? I'm sorry, once you pasken it's the old kli, it's not a problem. You're saying pashut svara. If it's a Rabbi Yehuda, once you could cover it over, then what is it? It's mutar. And we, let's take away to the Tana Kama, he holds it's not noylad, right? That's the whole svara. Tana Kama holds it's no problem of noylad. If that's true, that it's not noylad, then afilu b'chol. How can it say afilu b'chol? Ach teima, d'keivan d'chazi l'chasah kli, afilu nishbar b'Shabbos nami lav noylad hu l'Tana Kama d'Yehuda. Huh? D'keivan d'chazi l'chasah kli, afilu nishbar b'Shabbos nami lav noylad hu l'Tana Kama d'Yehuda, kemo she'nishbar b'Samuch. D'keivan d'Rabbeinu, kasav b'Samuch d'afilu nishbar b'Shabbos she'oleh l'taltelan, keivan d'chaser keli l'Tana Kama, heich katav kan nishbar b'chol she'osah tzrichah? How can you pasken she'osah tzrichah? The mashmah, nishbar b'Shabbos asur. The shema yesh lomar, d'ha Tana d'keilim shenishberu, v'hacha b'kli shenishbar mimenu chatichah. Keilim shenishberu is one thing, and cheres is keilim shenishbar mimenu chatichah. See the difference? Man ameit yourself. You're a genius, huh? Different language. You mean shenishberu? You see how he's medayek in every word in the Gemara and the Mishnah. Keilim shenishberu is not cheres. It's a difference.

Like if you look at the shiur, the kimat hakli adayin mishamesh tashmisho harishon, ot zayin. The chatichah zu shenishberah, me'ikara hayta re'uyah lishamesh bifnei atzmah kodem shenishberah, ve'achshav shenishberah, hi re'uyah lishamesh bifnei atzmah. Do you see the difference? The kimat hakli adayin mishamesh tashmisho harishon, it's still going. The broken piece can't do anything. Yafeh me'od, huh? Beautiful. We're breaks the break, but if we're a piece broke off and the kli still goes on, that's called a nolad. Very nice, huh? Where do we say that that's when the keli breaks? The keli breaks completely, so those chratim, those pieces of junk, there there's no nolad. That's the Tana Kama's no nolad. Here it's cheres, a small piece that broke off. But specifically moves on. My only kashya on all this is—tell me, how does he know? I don't see this. How would Rava know what this cheres came from? What, there's a sign on it? Ani mikli shalem, ani mikli shavur? You know I like you. If you come more often, I like you. You have a good head on your shoulders. I need you. I can see in the words, shivrei kelim is kelim sheshibru legamrei. The translation of cheres is שנשבר מה. Yeah, but how would you know that, though? How would Rava know that? That I don't see, that I don't know. How did Rava know this? You hear the kasha? Repeat the answer. This keilim shenishberu, kol hakeilim hanitzoshav shivreihem. And this is cheres. Cheres is chatichas cheres shenishberu bechol, mikli. The case of cheres is chatichas cheres shenishberu bechol mikli. The kli is עומד, says the Beis Yosef, it's based on this Gemara, though. But how would you know that? How can how would Rava know that? This is the keilim Gemara. Even how would you know the whole keli wasn't cheres? How do you know that? How would you see from this piece of cheres that the kli is not עומד? Maybe the kli is all cheres and it's not עומד anymore. I mean, how do you know from this scrap what the rest looks like? I don't see the case. All right, this is what this is. Good? No, this is what he says. Who? No, I don't know. I'll just ask you a question. Now, you're all to be happy. It goes like this: Piska lemaima. That's the Bach, an unbelievable svara. Listen to the Bach. Lechatchila... Afilu nisbar b'Shabbos, nami lav noylad hu. Even if it broke on Shabbos, it's not nolad, okay? ... V'hasam b'keivan shenishber, ava klushin nishberu ad kan l'shonoi, v'ein remez l'chiluk zeh b'Talmud. It's almost like our question. I wanted to know how, what, how he knew. He's saying mechteisa. Wouldn't it be nice if the Gemara makes these chilukim and be a stickler in the Gemara a little bit, right? It should have said, b'Medvar, b'amurim, on the language the Gemara says. Easy to commentate another thing. V'lo mistabra nami l'chalek b'kach, because also the svara doesn't make sense. D'keivan d'eis lei meimar halacha, b'chol inyan mukhan hu, l'tamei kama. Once it does me'ein melacha, it's mukhan. Who cares? What's the machlokes, the Beis Yosef and the Bach? What are they arguing? Mukhan. Bach says he doesn't understand. Once it's mukhan, it's mukhan. What's the difference?

I think... He wants to say like this: the badness is not a deal. The Bach holds it's really not a deal. He says like this: Only because of the next case. There's a sugya if you were zorek l'ashpa and you were mevatel shem kli, when is that? That's only if you did it on chol. If you did it on Shabbos, so the din of chol is lav davka. The reason why it says chol is because of the next case. And the Bach מאריך back and forth. Then he says like this. We'll see there. He says like this. Let's do a chiddush. The ... Rabbeinu, chatichas chelev shenishber b'chol, davka b'chol b'Shabbos tav lei noel, k'mo shehevi b'yesod divrei haTosafos. Ela mihu, hada dakinan aval b'Shabbos tav lei noel, hainu b'nishber b'Shabbos d'rabim. Depends where it broke. Where did it break? If it broke in the reshus harabim, lo chashvinan b'direshus harabim, hotzihu l'toch reshus ha... b'Shabbos. ... b'karem ... b'nishber chatzer. You like the Bach? The Bach is saying like this. Are you with me, Eliezer? Are you with me? Huh? No, but you have to listen. Listen here. Tishm'u tov. You don't realize the ... that the greatness of the ... unbelievable. The ... is ... unbelievable. He already said, saying unbelievable words. He's saying that, soi soi, you have a kasha: how can the ... even the Shabbos? If ... is for Shabbos, it's ... So then how can the ...? The ... is there shvarim shvarim. When it's completely broken and the thing doesn't exist anymore, that's not ... There's no problem of ... there. Mashenkein where the original keli is still existing and a new piece is broken off, there you have a problem of .... Says the Bach, yeah, but it would be nice if it would be mentioned in the Gemara such a svara. This svara makes no difference. You'll soon see why it's a regular svara. And the Bach says, I don't see the difference. Yes, the Bach says soon it's no difference, no difference. He doesn't see what's the difference. If it does me'lechah, then it's ... If it doesn't, then it's not .... Then he says a new pshat. It depends where it broke. If it broke in the chatzer, and then you use it in the reshus harabim, then the pshat is it broke in the chatzer. Slowly, you didn't bring Rashi yet. Mashenkein where it breaks mamash in the reshus harabim, where there's no tzorech for it, it's not going to work. Yeah. Wait, but then you have another problem. How do you know where it broke? Huh? How do you know where it broke? I don't agree with you. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea. Unless maybe the case of the reshus harabim, there's no chatzer nearby. Maybe it's a reshus harabim middle street, so there's no chatzer nearby. Okay. What's the machlokes? What is everybody on? What's the יסוד of the machlokes? And the answer is very basic. No, a little bit different, a little bit different. What? The machlokes is started where it's broken in the reshus harabim, we're not going to come and say, well, it's ... broken in the reshus harabim. We're broken the chatzer even in the reshus harabim it's חייב. Depends where it broke. If it broke in the reshus harabim, then it's not ... anything that's finished. If it's broke where in the chatzer, then what's the machlokes? ... There's a whole סוגיא, like I told you till now, what exactly is the מוקצה in our Mishnah? Is shivrei keilim the מוקצה in our Mishnah of the חנוכה, or shivrei keilim is the מוקצה in our Mishnah of the ...? That's where ... the machlokes breaks through. What was the first thing we started? What did we start? What was the first kasha I asked? Who? Why does Rashi go and say the chatzer, while the Rach says chatzer? The teretz is very poshut. Rashi is bothered what? כלי. Therefore he's got to look for the כלי chatzer.

Rachting. I know. Mukhan is mukhan, finished. Shabbos, who cares? Slowly. That's the machlokes sources that the Ramban and the Ritva. The Ramban is talking about mukhan, kli in huchan mukhan, while the Ritva is learning kli in huchan. The Beis Yosef is talking about kli in huchan, kli. In huchan kli, the svara works the opposite of your svara. One. Bad try. This is the kli. This is the kli. When it breaks off from it, then what happens? This breaks off from the kli. So then the pshat is, then it's not part of the kli. That's nolad. That's when it becomes nolad. But in hilchos hachanah, what should be the halachos? Should make a difference. Take the bach, what's the difference? Mukhan. Emes, it's just meaning. It's very poshut, yeah? In hilchos hachanah, what difference if it broke to a hundred pieces or broke to two pieces? Even on a small piece, you can't be mechalek between big pieces. So mamash, if this is mukhan and it's mukhan on Shabbos, so then it's even b'Shabbos. What's the difference? Maybe you can kasher. This bach is a davar shelo peleh, because according to Rashi, even when it breaks from the reshus harabim, we always anyway borrow Hashem kli from the chatzer. What's this word? According to Rashi, the bach is medayek in Rashi. What's the pshat? Because Rashi's talking about hilches mechah. In hilches mechah, where is there a difference where it breaks? Only where it's chazi, not chazi. That's the difference. That's why the Bach is saying it makes a difference to me where it broke, and in this Rishus Harabim it's not chazi. That's why the Bach is a shitas. The Bach chata on the Beis Yosef. According to Rashi, that shem kli, shem kli is always, it has a shem kli because of the chatzer. According to the Bach, he has to find on the Beis Yosef it's not דין in the kli, it's דין in the mechuchan. This is not mechuchan. It makes a difference where it broke, because what's the kasha? Let's say it broke. Could you say here, Yosef, could you say the Bach's teretz in Rashi? Because let's say it broke, who cares? Beautiful, no? Excellent. Yeah? No. Space out. The Bach is ... no? Starts with the ... kind of kasha. So if there's no problem of noylad, because there's no problem of noylad, then what do you do with this sugya? So that's where the ... comes along and says it's not called noylad. The question is, is there a problem of noylad or it's not called noylad? That's what the nafka mina. Okay, you can see that's the machlokes. Let's do these two Gemaras. Let's like this. אמר רב נחמן: הני ליבני דשטורא מבניינא. These bricks which are left over from the building. Shari l'hatzalinu. You're allowed to move them. D'chazu l'mizgalaihu, because it's fit to doah to sit on. Sharginu. If he set them up, piled them up properly, tidran zu al zu, then it's vadai aktzinhu l'tor binyanach. Then the pshat is he was maktzeh it, matzris sitting for binyanach, according to Rashi. Vadai aktzinhu l'tor binyanach, because vadai maktzeh is for a different thing. Okay. Now, what happens if it's aktzinu l'binyanach? This is Rashi. Sharginu. The itur, shehishlim binyano, he finished his binyan, v'nitotar, and it was left over, u'mahash lo kayma l'binyan, ella l'shev aleha. So now it's only made for what? For sitting. The Torah's kli aleha, therefore it has a Torah's kli. What happens if it's sharginu? If it's sharginu, then it's vadai aktzinhu l'tor binyanach, because you see he set it up. Usually.

If you would not care about them. So there's a very interesting mashal, a very interesting mashal. The mashal says, he doesn't understand. According to the manda'amar that doesn't hold of muktzah, right, what would be in such halacha, l'maaseh Reb Shimon in such a case? Mutar. The mashal in Beis HaTakas says this. He says like this. Because it's no muktzah. You don't hold... Come from the mashal. He says like this. You hear? I read you the mashal. You understand? If, let's say, he lends a pribinyan, what happens? He makes a pribinyan, what happens? It's muktzah, right? Sorry, right, it's muktzah. If he doesn't make a pribinyan, it's l'eish shevah, if it's for sitting, and it's not muktzah. So, one second. I just want to point out one view in the words of Rashi. He starts off, shelim binyan lo, v'nitotar, u'mehashta lo kaimi lebinyan ela l'eish shevah lahem, d'torat kli aleihem, which means that it has a torat kli only if it's for what? Sitting. But if it's for binyan, it doesn't have a torat kli. When he says sharginhu, does he say that it loses its torat kli, or does he say vadai aktinu l'torat binyan? Huh? Something which is usage, and usage is... Huh? No, no, the kli, the chair is a kli also. Chair is also a kli. When it's not for binyan? Oh, that's the question. This is the question we have to ask. No, no, we have to ask this for a question. This is a question we have to ask. Tell me, do we have any cold water here in the yeshiva? The yeshiva has cold water? He starts off like this: when it's made, when it's made l'binyan, right? Obviously it's not a kli, but when it's made, leis baleihem, it has din Torah kli. Maybe, maybe that's... I don't know. Right, that's the... good, that's the deal. What does it say? Sharginu, but it sidran zu al zu, vadei aktinu l'sar binyan acher. So when vadei aktinu l'sar binyan acher, does Rashi say that it loses its shem kli? No. Rashi just says, vadei aktinu... We'll soon see the significance of this diyuk in Rashi, you see? I would say that Rashi is a kitzur. If we don't want to make the diyuk, we can say Rashi means simple: vadei aktinu l'binyan acher, u'meileh it doesn't have a toras kli. Rashi's just saying the gefil. Again, you understand the difference? Yes. When Rashi says vadei aktinu l'sar binyan acher, is he telling you the metzius, or is he telling you the muksah? Here, again, when Rashi says sharginu, you see the Rashi, sharginu? L'sar binyan acher. Now, does Rashi mean that that's the muksah, or does Rashi mean, and therefore it's l'binyan and therefore it doesn't have a kli? No, so then it becomes muksah, because he set it aside for the muksah. Two ways to read the Rashi. Either Rashi means vadei aktinu and that's the muksah, or you have to say Rashi's just saying vadei aktinu, therefore it's l'binyan. Now that it's l'binyan, it doesn't have a toras kli. That's it. The Mashal learns, huh? Look, look, look. Comes along the Mashal. Mashal says like this, that we're coming to say that these bricks are muksah. Says the Maharsha like this. Who does that go like? Says the Maharsha, v'amar Rav Nachman, hani livdi vadei tzinu. Af al gav d'tana, tana kama d'matzisa les lei muktzah k'Reb Shimon, I have a kasha that the Tanna is over here, that the Gemara is saying in our daf holds in muktzah, because he holds like Reb Shimon. V'kol makom, Ramei lei Ashchan d'matir muktzah. V'inami tislei d'psicha stira, ohel d'Rabbanan. Kol makom, tiltul muktzah isbei. B'Yom Tov shemochin nefesh, afilu tiltul muktzah. You can't do what the Maharsha is saying, in short, that this doesn't go like Reb Shimon. Reb Shimon will not hold of this Gemara. This Gemara that says that it's not muktzah, that it is muktzah when I maksed l'binyan, cannot be Reb Shimon. Let me just tell him, Reb Shimon holds there's no muktzah. Because Reb Shimon, muktzah is easy. A muktzah? Forget about muktzah. The only muktzah he holds is nolad, something which wasn't in the world before and it came into the world now. Chutz mi'zeh, Reb Shimon doesn't hold of muktzah. Says the Maharsha that this Gemara cannot go like Reb Shimon.

You go like Rav Shimon. Why? Because according to Rav Shimon, there's no muktzah. Says the Rach, it's not true. Yeah, what? Rasha is in lamed aleph, amud beis, in beis. Any yet? That's right, and some of it including this. Because I'll show you, because the Rach disagrees. Let's take a look at the Rach. Lamed aleph. Yeah. Says the Marsha, af al gav d'tana kama lasifa, last name muktzah, k'Rav Shimon, mikol makom mistabra... this is going like Rav Shimon, it can go like Rav Meir. You have to see the Gemara there. But the bottom line is the Marsha is saying that this Gemara cannot be Rav Shimon here. Interesting. You missed an open Rach. Let's take a look at the Rach. Charginu? Charginu? No. You have it? Afilu d'hani tigrogres... hu ki muktzah... Remember we spoke that Rav Shimon maybe doesn't hold of certain melachos, certain muktzahs he doesn't hold of. Certain muktzahs he does hold of. Which muktzahs does he hold of? When you're maktzeh, you're daaso mamash, you're mamash maktzeh. For example, let's say I put out raisins to dry, right? B'yadayim, with my own two bare hands, what did I do? I say, I don't want it. I don't want to use it. I want to wait till it dries. So I'm not going to come and eat it as grape; it's muktzah. Yeah. I understand, but when it's not muktzah, it's not. Dried grapes is muktzah means I was maktzeh b'yadayim. I'm not sitting on it. I was maktzeh b'vinyan. You can use it. ... Somebody will ... Even Reb Shimon holds the muktsa is going to hold over here. Yeah, you with me? Nachon? The Maharsha says that this Gemara cannot go like Reb Shimon. You have to think what makes Rabbi Shimon hold by tzimukim, because that was ... based on the Torah, based on the Torah. Since the Torah ... Rabbanan ... something which שאני מקצה זה ממש. כי שאני לא מקצה, אני לא חשבתי על זה. That's our ... Our book says ... Go ahead. Yes. ... Why? Which is our Gemara. ... Go ahead. ... Sit down. Go ahead. ... גילוי דעתו, שהקצהם לבניין לא ואסור לטלטלם. Okay. ... says the Magen Avraham, ... אסור לטלטלם, ... What does the Magen Avraham want? The Magen Avraham wants to אין on to the lashon of the Shulchan Aruch, because of our question in Rashi. Because Rashi doesn't say ... You see? ... What is the machlokes? ... Rashi is maksim so. ... Exactly, that's what I hope. Here's some, you listening? What was bothering the Magen Avraham? This kli. ... is maksim so. It's now losing this ... Please. Remember the question asking Rashi. Does that mean I'm maksim? ... When you read the Rashi, you with me? Am I right or am I wrong? I'm right, no? You see the Magen Avraham. No, but you see, it goes like this. Rashi says like this. Rashi starts like this: ... v'nitotar, u'mahashlo kaima b'vinyan leishma lahem. And now Rashi adds to the Gemara. The Gemara never said one word about kli, and Rashi says, ... kli aleihem. So the one thing for sure Rashi sticks in.

Leishavalah is mutar for tehoras kli, נכון? But on the tzad that sharginu, that he set it up with binyan, the Rashi doesn't specify that it gets back its shem kli. Now why not? Right? Means it loses—it doesn't have its shem kli. Why not? Either you can come and say Rashi meant that, because all Rashi's addressing is this lebinyan v'lo l'shem. Machshav anu tzrich magid, kemo shekasav before this, u'memeila yesh al zeh tehoras kli. That would be the pashut pshat in Rashi. The other way to learn Rashi is that Rashi is saying like this: once a matzinu, who cares? It goes back to the original thing, and if matzinu l'binyan, mimeila ein tehoras kli. Or Rashi's saying is, once a matzinu, even with a kli, I don't care. Once the issue is not kli anymore, I was matzinu. I'm showing you that the Shulchan Aruch brings it down the way the Gemara brings it down, and the Magen Avraham explains, and what happens when it's l'binyan? It loses its tehoras kli, which means that he's is on—the guy has to say it loses its tehoras kli. What was bothering the Magen Avraham? I'll tell you a very pashut. Is it Reb Shimon or not Reb Shimon? If the pshat is it has to lose its shem kli, Reb Shimon never talks about shem kli. Reb Shimon doesn't care if it has a shem; Reb Shimon doesn't hold of muktzah. The only muktzah he does hold of is when a muktzah b'yadayim. It has nothing to do with the shem kli. I can take a kli and be maktzeh b'yadayim; it's also according to Reb Shimon also. That's why the Rach is saying sharginu. Once it's sharginu, so you notice he doesn't mention one word. He says, afilu Reb Shimon nami ki groizes v'tfulkin. One side don't hold of keilim, then the pshat is, al maksif, then it could be Reb Shimon, and it's like ... That's the machlokes. Machlokes between the Maharsha and the Rach is: is it Reb Shimon's muktzah of maksah b'yadayim, or it's the Rabbanan's muktzah of keilim? Reb Shimon doesn't hold of keilim. The whole keilim business, he doesn't make it. It's only if a maksah b'yadayim mamash, then there's a special type of muktzah, that's maksah. So that's what the Rach is learning, that's even Reb Shimon. There's no two types of keilim. Maharsha is learning back with like the Magen Avraham, has two types of keilim, so it's not Reb Shimon. It's not even ... it's pashut pshat, there's pashut. Yeah, sure, please, please ask me. I don't know. This I'm just saying. The Maharsha and the Magen Avraham is obviously no. I'm telling you the learning. You see that they're going— for some reason the Magen Avraham is bothered to say that it doesn't have a ... He's bothered me. No, so they're learning it in Rashi, because Rashi started with keilim ... and the next Rashi means, in the meilah it loses its shem keilim. Okay, so Magen Avraham is learning that's the pshat in Rashi. Maharsha is learning that pshat in Rashi. I understand, but that's how he learns the Rashi. You see that they learn— obviously they learn the Rashi. This goes back, the Magen Avraham and the Maharsha are saying the same thing. You'll soon see the significance. The next sugya is ... It's so true. What do you need that if it's not— what does the Gemara say? It's left over, ... You're allowed to move it. And Rashi has a whole thing because it's chas Torahs keilim. Why does Rashi need the Torahs keilim? The answer is because otherwise there's no chiddush. You want a chiddush. No, the beginning is not a chiddush. You would never machsir. No, but you would never machsir. But that's not if you hold like Rav Shimon. If you learn the pshat is this Gemara is not Rav Shimon, then there's a chiddush, because it's not a kli; kamashmalan, it turns into a kli. But if you learn Rav Shimon, then it's not—it's a... Exactly. According to Rashi, Rashi is saying gevaldik that the reason why Rashi has to come to toras keilim is because Rashi is saying, since we have a special heter of shari l'taltel l'inu because you can sit on it, you don't need that heter according to Rav, according to Rav Shimon. There was no muktzah by him. It only becomes muktzah when it's l'din. Right? Right. And that's where Rashi got it from. No, but that's where Rashi got it from. That's what Rashi's saying. That's beautiful. Beautiful. You hear the kasha?

No, you don't hear the kasha. According to Rashi, we're talking about regular מוקצה, let's say. So then I understand the heter for bin for yeshiva, since I'm making it for sitting, kli. That's a Rashi, it's a circumstance of kli. According to R' Shimon and the Rach, we don't care about kli. The only problem is muktzah and not muktzah. What's the—of course I wasn't machsir. What's the difference if I learn R' Shimon or if I learn—okay. Let's take a look at the next two lines in the Gemara. The Gemara says like this: מגופה של חבית. The next two lines. מגופה של חבית, here. מגופה של חבית שנכתתה. A מגופה של חבית that's become crushed. A מגופה, I think, is like a spout, cap or spout like that. Spout is this. Okay, whatever, whatever. מגופה של חבית. Now, שנכתתה. Okay, okay, became crushed. מותר לטלטל בשבת. Mutar to move it on Shabbos. תנינא מהכא. מגופה שנכתתה. That's the Gemara, that's the Gemara. That's the Gemara. תנינא מהכא is the next line. Nothing חדש, the Gemara, next line. Same, because it's the next line in the Gemara. תנינא מהכא, yeah. Motzo mutar l'beshabbos, right? It and its broken pieces. So Rashi says, what is it? Meaning the megufa and the chutz. The chavishinis both are mutar. V'lo yeishuvsh menu, shema l'chasah b'sakli, v'lislaba karei hamita. Yeah? Yitake, you shouldn't fix it. L'hatir bli tosefes, b'Shabbos d'avid kli. You shouldn't fix it. Lo yeishuvsh menu means you shouldn't fix it. You should take off the shever, the sharp part, because then you make it into a kli. Then you make it into a patish. You're not making a kli on Shabbos. The way it is, but not to fix it. Not to fix it. I didn't do it. It broke. I didn't do it. Now, says the Gemara like this: Ela ma'ata, v'nisbala, v'nisbala melachanah. Says the Gemara, ela ma'ata, zarik lei l'glimei hacha nami d'asur. Hold on, I'm still here. So, the ... What happens if a guy took this broken piece and he threw it in the garbage? Threw it in the garbage. Says the Gemara, asur. Then it becomes asur. Let's see Rashi. Im zarak, l'gufa zu l'ashpa, says Rashi, batlah mi'toras kli. Snazzy, why do we talk about the magufa? What about the chavit? Why don't we discuss the chavit? I'll tell you why. Nichsah. Tushaynim speak about it. I'll tell you what, you'll do it. I want to just learn the Rashi. I want to show you something interesting. It says like this here: What happens, im tzarach migufa zu la'asfo, notice the word, batlah mitorat kli. It loses its shem kli. It had a shem kli; you threw it in the garbage, batlah mishem kli. Now, maskila l'Rav Papa, comes along Rav Papa and asks a kasha. Listen, maskila l'Rav Papa, ela me'ata, zarak lei beglimei. If a guy takes his jacket and throws it in the garbage, hachi nami d'afser? Should become aser. Why? Batlah mitorat kli. Kli means a jacket. Sure, it's a jacket. You kidding a little bit, huh?

That's ... the whole night ... Hacha nami d'asu. Well, Rav Papa, Rav Papa says you're right. It can't be, let's see Rashi's ... l'glimei b'Shabbos l'ashpa. Hacha nami d'asu l'tokulei, she'kamoso to move your jacket. Now, l'maaseh, Gemara in Bava ... has ... First we saw a chatz, then the ... what do you do with the ...? Therefore we want to know if you threw your jacket, which is the same thing. ... Rashi ... Gali da'atei me'etmol d'lav mano hu. Gali da'atei, you revealed דעת from yesterday, d'lav mano, d'lav mano. But then this could have said to me almost this. That's the ... Let's take out the ... This is ... Hachi nami ka'amar: ela me'ata, zorko b'glima, why is he asking the same kasha? Mi b'yom, if you threw the glima, right? You see a Tosafos? Tosafos says, Hacha nami, if you threw the glima ... right? Why is Tosafos not a kasha? Because he says, ... lechel d'muyin l'glimei. Tosafos might ask the same kasha: hacha nami, if you threw the glima ... right? Why does Tosafos say it's not a kasha? Because he says, ... lechel d'muyin l'glimei. What's the mukham mibayom, which means five Shabbos. You know what Tosfos... huh? Tosfos is saying like this: why do you want to... you can have the same kasha. What's the Gemara's kasha over here? You threw out your jacket, it should also be asur. Once you have the same kasha. If you throw out your jacket erev Shabbos, it should become asur. Teretz is, the teretz is, your jacket is a jacket. I mean, this... The hak, the keilah, l'hoyoi mukhan l'yom, lekulhu d'muyim. Huh? Because this never started to be mukhan. What do you mean? I don't understand. This thing was broken before Shabbos. What's it talking about? Why don't you have something with the kli before Shabbos, and then after Shabbos, you ruined it? That's a kasha ein mukhan l'chatzi Shabbos, which is a sugya of muktzah. Why shake it over here? It never started. I mean, when Shabbos came in, it was nothing. I'm trying my best to tell you Tosfos without telling you Tosfos, because you'll see why. After Rishonim, Tosfos takes on a whole different... Let's see pshat. What's Tosfos's pshat? Even after the Gemara says it's mibayom, you should have the same kasha by kelimah: I threw my kli out mibayom, it should become asur. Now, the Gemara says same kasha, become asur, same question, and is it true? Obviously it's not true, right? Yeah, we're not sure what muktzah we're talking about. This is what we have to discuss. Comes along Tosfos. What are you comparing it to? Over there the kli was mukhan and it became unmukhan. I think this was nothing. This was junk to begin with, right? Because I threw in the garbage already yesterday. If, when Shabbos comes, I kept it as a kli, and then when Shabbos arrives, after five hours of Shabbos, I threw it out. I took a kli and I made it into junk. So that's glui. That's still glui. I had a keli and I threw it into the garbage. Over here, when Shabbos arrived, it was already in the junkyard. You can't compare it to a kli. But the other, the room says it was already... Maybe that's good. Who says it was room? I threw out meshugeneh. The guy's out of his mind. He doesn't need it. He has too much clothing in his house. No, whatever. No, whatever. The guy has too much... or he has too much room in the house. Oh, oh, he doesn't need it, so it becomes garbage. ... Sounds familiar? Sounds familiar? Sounds familiar? It's your question. You asked this question. ... Sounds familiar? What he talked about this...

This is the thing. Why are you told about megufa? Why? Mishum davsarka, that the hegufa we have with teres kli, gamur, ad sheyu shivreiha bnei tefel. Dumi dacheres tanah sheba mikli chashuv, mashma lan. I would say that hegufa we have with a teres kli, gamur, till the shivreiha are bnei tefel. Ela ma ata zorek... kashya li, mai ka medamei leglima, shehu davar chashuv. Asks the Ritva, he says, I don't understand the sugya over here. A piece of junk is junk, right? You threw it in the garbage. You didn't throw it in the garbage. If a guy takes a soup, throws it in the garbage, מי שואל? But the guy takes a... who cares what he does? I care what this guy does? The guy takes a soup and throws it in the garbage. He's a crazy guy. How can you compare it, says the Ritva, to a guy who takes a piece of junk and throws it in the garbage? Ma oid, says the Ritva, more. Dka'amar, el amar Rav Papa, zorka mibayom laashpa asurah. Ha vadai zorka mibatla ashpa, yom lo batla mamash, u'mutar l'taltela. Im zorka mibayom laashpa, what would be the halacha? Asurah. So who are דין by glima? It should be, and it's not. So what is Tosafos? The Ritva and Tosafos are arguing. What is the Ritva saying? Ritva's saying, yeah, no, the Ritva's saying the Gemara's kasha shouldn't apply here also. Tosafos makes it, no, it's eina domeh. The kasha doesn't apply over here. The Ritva's saying, wait two minutes, don't believe the kasha. It does apply over here. There you have it. Says the Gemara, he took the junk and he put it in the garbage, it becomes asur. Says, the ... ela matza zos, glimei should also be asur. Says the Rif, I don't get what you're talking about. How can you compare junk to good things? ... This is a piece of junk, and this is a suit. How could you compare the two? Why not? Maybe the pshat is, if I threw junk, then it's batel mitoras kli. But if I take a suit, which is good, it's lo batel mitoras kli. You take it back? Is that the...? We didn't say one word about taking it back. How could something which is bad, some good thing, just because you threw it out, so you threw it out, so what? ... That's not what it says, though. The Gemara compares it to junk. Go ahead. Erev Shabbos, right? Erev Shabbos means that I threw it out Erev Shabbos; it wasn't muchan, right? Yeah, but this is the difference. This is a kli. This is a regular good thing, says the Rif, yeah? V'oid. Yeah. V'oid, d'kaamar ela amar Rav Papa, zorkin b'yam l'ashpaso, vadai zorkin mutar, l'ashpi b'yam lo batel mamash. The guy throws something in the garbage, again, it's a good thing, lo batel mamash, mutar l'taltel. Answers the Rif a teretz. The Rif says like this: ... bein hashmashos, agav imei, tulei mahani lei, zerikah loi teimei toras kli. The chiddush of the Gemara is that a kli cannot become not a kli on Shabbos. Once something's a kli, the beginning of Shabbos, there's a klal of ein muktzah l'chatzi Shabbos. Why? We spoke about this. Remember we answered that in Hilchos keilim, there's two muktzahs. There's keilim and there's muktzah. In Hilchos keilim, we said that it could be a svara of ein muktzah l'chatzi Shabbos. He's saying that once a kli was a kli for the beginning of Shabbos, it remains a kli for the rest of Shabbos. And that's the klal: ki heicha d'breira milsa klam, lo mahani zerikah l'ashpa l'olam l'vatel mitoras kli. And that's the question. Meaning, really, you can't make a nolad on Shabbat, something like that, right? You can't make something new on Shabbat. That's right. Okay, the sugya is keli. A keli, because that's something—it's not keli, it's muktzeh. Because that's what I'm showing you. This sugya, that comes from here. Just give me five minutes, you'll hear it. Again, first get the fact. The fact is like this: the Gemara starts off saying it's toldah on Shabbat, and then the Gemara has a question: if it's toldah on Shabbat, then glima by toldah on Shabbat should become asur, not, right? Says the Ritva, he doesn't see the comparison. What are you comparing a good thing to a piece of junk? Then the Gemara gives a teretz that it's toldah on erev Shabbat, right? Says the Ritva, yeah, but you're missing the point. So then it should be the same by a glima too, and it's not. So again, you have the same problem.

Meaning, let the Gemara ask for a kasha. Because why should it be the same? I mean, the same kasha, like that by glima. The same reason that you said by glima, the same reason that you pushed it to Erev Shabbos, because the glima, you should push it from Erev Shabbos back to Shabbos because of glima. Let's first get the facts, and then we'll see how to explain. Let's first learn the facts. It says like this. When you start off the Gemara, the Gemara says, when a broken thing is broken to pieces, right? Right? When a broken thing, when a broken thing, when a broken thing breaks. Now, come, let's get the facts. When a broken thing breaks, you go and you throw it in the garbage, okay? Says the Gemara, says the Gemara, why? Because as soon as I throw something in the garbage, it's garbage. The Gemara says if I throw a suit in the garbage also, why not? The Gemara says it doesn't make sense, right? I throw a suit in the garbage. Just because I threw it in the garbage doesn't make sense, right? Says the Gemara, ela mai, throw on Erev Shabbos, right? So if I threw it on Erev Shabbos. Now, comes the Ritva and says like this: wait a sec. First of all, how could you compare throwing junk into the garbage to throwing a suit in the garbage? I understand if I throw junk into the garbage, it becomes junk. But if I throw a suit in the garbage, I'm crazy instead. That's question number one. Question number two, says the Ritva, the same question that you asked me on Shabbos, you should ask me on who? You should ask me on Erev Shabbos. Why? Because once I threw it into the garbage, it's pshat is it's junk. So then it's junk here too. You didn't help me anything. Truthfully, Tosafos. So what should I do? Hashta loy parach ella me'ata, gzeirah glima mibaya? Why does the Gemara not ask it over here after the teretz? If kimloi haya mukhan mibaya, since something is not mukhan mibaya, the kli, it was thrown to the garbage, lekel l'damuyei l'glimei, because the glimei is a different sugya. Now, the problem is Tosafos doesn't explain what he wants, why, because the problem is you could have the same kasha: when once I throw something to the garbage, it's not mukhan. You know what Tosafos is talking about. Tosafos says you can't compare it to a kli, because the kli, the pshat is, why haya mukhan mibaya. So this is also not mukhan mibaya; it was in the garbage. That's the kasha. That's the kasha. Comes along the Ritva—by the way, comes along the Ritva and he says like this, yeah? Ritva says, I don't see it. A whole sugya, yeah? This whole Gemara, whole Gemara, מתחילה ועד סוף, is based on what? Then you can say, you don't understand, right? It's based on one yesod: a kli which was mukhan mibaya cannot become unmukhan mibaya. That's the whole sugya of the Gemara. Which means that when the Gemara discusses Shabbos, the reason why we discuss Shabbos and kelim and glima, because the Gemara's concept is one something was mukhan on the beginning of the Shabbos, there's nothing what to talk about. Then there's nothing what to discuss. And if it could become asur, then let a glima become asur also. That's all the Gemara is trying to say. And maybe what the Gemara answers is, eruv Shabbos, Gemara answers eruv Shabbos. If it's possible for something to be muchan and then become aser, through that it could become on Shabbos, it could become aser, the glui could also become aser. That's the whole kasha. Which means that the Rishis is trying to say that the halacha is, I said a takanah true. Basically that's what he's saying. He's saying, you're right, you can come and tell—the Gemara is trying to say one nekudah, that something which was becoming aser on Shabbos, that was muchan at the beginning of Shabbos, has to remain muchan. This is the... What? The words of Tosafos. Tosafos says that it's eina domeh l'glima, because it wasn't muchan mi'bayom, right? So then obviously the sugya is not the sugya of Shabbos; the sugya is muchan mi'bayom, and the Gemara wants to say that glima should... And Tosafos says eina domeh l'glima. Why does Tosafos feel it's eina domeh l'glima? That's the kasha. Yes? What was your question? Yeah, but with regard... Yes, that was the kasha.

Let me tell you, there's a beautiful piece of Torah, the Chazon Yechezkel, Cheskel Abramsky in the Tosefta. I mean, something's wrong over here. I mean, the Ritva doesn't answer this kasha. Tosfos doesn't answer this question. I mean, what does the Ritva answer this question? No. The Ritva says, one ... how do you compare it to grama? What happened over here? There's a beautiful vort from the Chazon Yechezkel, beautiful vort. Let me tell you information now. Once you notice, and this was just a ... he doesn't speak about this, but I think it's pretty meduyak in Rashi. Rashi says like this: In zorek megufa zula ashpa, batlah miToras kli, right? When Rashi says mi'boi dayin, Rashi's gali da'atai me'asmol d'lav manhu. Rashi never came and said that it's batel miToras kli. Because ... Yes, I'm not talking about the batlah and the lav. I'm talking about the expression, the lav manhu. Yes, not a kli. He's telling the difference between the word batlah and the word lav. I'm not ... I'm saying over here, gali da'atei me'asmol, here, here, he was gali daas, and this is batlah. Gali da'atei means he was megaleh daas, and this is batlah. In other words, from here it's mashma we're discussing more the kli, and this we're discussing more the gavra. Gali da'atei me'asmol d'lav manhu. There's the Chazon Yechezkel, l'orech u'kvar. In the hava amina of the Gemara, the Gemara learns keli and not keli. That's the shakla v'tarya of the Gemara. When I throw something to the garbage, it loses its shem kli. In losing its shem kli, it makes no difference if the person's normal or not, because since it's in the garbage, like Simcha said, it's not a kli anymore. Angly, angly. When you want to know what a keli... a keli is something which is muchan l'omed l'shimush, huh? A kli is something which is muchan and omeid l'shimush. Once you throw it in the garbage, not muchan l'omed l'shimush. For you. For you. It's a person. It's finished. It's not... it's finished in the garbage. It's garbage. Finished. It's garbage. When something is in the garbage, right? When something is in the garbage, right? It's now in the garbage, נכון? Meaning, it's not omeid l'shimush anymore. You know people who pick the garbage to take out their clothes and wear it? You're gonna tell me that once something goes to the garbage, the pshat is... homewear. What's homewear? Homewear. You, but me I'm talking about. I don't mean you, me. I mean me once I throw it out. I don't mean you. I mean once the guy throws out an undershirt, okay, he throws out... the guy throws out an undershirt, that means it's not finished. It's not finished. It's finished. It's gone. The guy's not using it anymore. So the next step is what? That some guy is going to pick it out of the garbage, and the next step is it goes to—here, when you throw something to the garbage, when you throw something in the garbage right now that's in the garbage together with your chum, with your all—what's the next step? That some guy is going to pick it out and wash it? Or the next step is it goes to the garbage? A guy takes— a guy takes a shirt and throws it in the garbage. The next step is what? That he's going to take it out and wear it, or the next step is that it goes to the garbage? So the pshat is, it is not a kli anymore. Finished. This is not oimed l'shimush. Comes from Rav Papa, the mere fact that it's in the ashpa means it's not omed anymore. Let me ask you that. Then it's the— then it's the— then it's the—

A person takes an undershirt and he puts it in a garbage. A person who takes an undershirt and he puts it in the garbage. The next step is, if oimen to be crushed, recycled, and thrown into the ocean. I don't need the sandwich. El amar Rav Papa, Rav Papa is being mechadesh a big yesod, that it has nothing to do with kelim. It has to do with Reb Shimon's muktzah. He was makpid beadayim. Gali da'atei me'asmai, he was megaleh daas. That's you already. That's not the kli. It's you. You are not using it anymore. That's the chiddush. First we held it has to do with the kelim. It has to do with the kelim. So the keli, the pshat is, glima is the same thing. It's not oimen. Then, once regarding with gali da'atei, it's not glima. Once we learned it has to do with gali da'atei, says the Chazon Yechezkel, gevaldik. Once it has to do with gali da'atei, then the pshat is, it's me. Then we could come and say you have to be normal. It has to make sense. It want to be you. Most people don't do this. That's when we could come and say that most people don't do it. That's why the Gemara says, mistabra that the tosfos means already. Tosfos comes to some extent. The key is, since it's not muchan mi'baYom, since it's not muchan mi'baYom, leka le'demuyei leglimei. That's why, but he threw it out. The teretz is, what do you mean by mukhan? What do you mean? It is mukhan. The victory of the garbage on Shabbos, meaning on Friday it wasn't mukhan. This is the point. It can't be chesaron mukhan. The only thing a chesaron is that it's not a keli. It's not oimed for anything. But in hilchos mukhan, we say it has to be normal. In other words, when we discuss shimush of the cheftza, then the Chanavi, kelim, you can throw something out and it becomes not a keli anymore. Then if you want to know in the daas of the person, is a person muktzah, then we have to go after the metzius of what's in front of us, but what people think. Your batel daas. When it comes to your daas, were you maktzeh or not maktzeh, there's such a svara. What Tosafos is saying is the example you can't since this kli. Since this kli, lo hayah mukhan, niba'yaim. It wasn't compared, niba'yaim, which means that this kli, never pshat was that there was a hachanah here. It never even had a hachanah. So leka l'meimar liglimei, because in hilchos glimei you can't come and say not mukhan. That's what he's trying to say, Tosafos. I want to take it out after. Question on Rav Papa? Rav Papa's pshat is if the pshat is that the cheftza, mitol of a keli because it's rotting now in the garbage, the guy threw something which is expensive. You're right, he's crazy, and his going daas and his meshugeneh is not a keli anymore. The teretz is it should be asur, and it doesn't make sense that it should be asur. Why takkeh? Why takkeh should it be asur? So that's what should be asur. So I think the Gemara is just asking מצד ההלכה, because we never found in halacha that it's asur. That's what the Gemara is trying. No, it's not saying, I have a raya that it's not. That's not what we're trying, because we're not posek like that. That's all the Gemara means. How do you know? But it's not the comparison? No, the comparison is there because of this lakli. We don't pasken like that. The Gemara says and the Chachamim don't do bitul kli. I mean, anyway, that's how you learn the Gemara. Otherwise, what is the Gemara saying? Anyway, you have to learn the Gemara. Is this true or not? Is hacha nami also true or not? If it's comparable, then it should be true. Anyway, however you learn the Gemara, it has to be the same thing. Halacha is the same. I heard your question. It's to do with the teretz of the Gemara, right? Question one.

No matter what you learn, you have to see the kashya. The Gemara was, glima is not halacha. We never found anywhere that the guy would throw—not a kasha on the question, the kasha. See, see, it's halacha is not that way. Like, glima—how? What's the Gemara's teretz? The Gemara's teretz is, it has nothing to do with the glima, the cheftza. It's not pshat it's not a kli anymore. You were makneh b'yadayim. That's the point. You're throwing it regardless. It's Reb Shimon's. Even if it is a kli, even if it is a kli, the discussion is not kli; discussion is muktzah. You were makneh b'yadayim. You were makneh b'yadayim. So therefore, when a person has a ... who cares? Meaning, meaning, if you learn Reb Shimon, Reb Shimon, then this thing doesn't begin. But if you learn the pshat is muktzah, muktzah is not the kli, but muktzah is that the person doesn't think about it, and the ... is a ... your brain. Just when your brain doesn't mean muktzah. You understand? When something is completely not ... so who cares what you thought? Therefore it doesn't become muktzah. That's what the Gemara is trying to say. The Gemara's pshat was only here. See, see, gali da'atei. Once you learn in Hilchos gali da'atei, then ... the Ritva's right. There's a svara of ... What about that? Jack is not garbage. The guy's out of his mind. What can you do? I'm telling you, in personal mind there's a difference between a glima and a cheres. Usually a normal person will not throw ... Who? Who? If you look, Tosafos is saying a very good thing. Tosafos is saying, once we learn that it's in gali da'atei and it's in haktzah, the glima's not a—glima doesn't even come into the picture anymore. Where does glima come into the picture? When we discuss the case, but when we want to talk about ... What's the pshat about? Payed not being crazy, I mean, what's... That's the pshat when you're makpid your dayim, and that's Reb Shimon. You're not — it's not normal. It's normal to make grogeres, not normal to throw a jacket in the garbage. It's a different... Where's the nafka mina? The major nafka mina is if he wants to take it back. One nafka mina, if he wants to take it out of the garbage now. Now, when you take a look, let's look here. ... Let's see, a guy has something in the garbage and he wants to take it out. He changed his mind. ... It has a shiur, it has something. ... with daas hatoisfos, oisher zorkan balabayis. ... af al daas ha... If one comes ani machmas. But what if the poor man takes it out of the garbage? ... Here, the whole beged b'tchilah, b'veis haani, ... mutal l'taltel. ... אי למעשה שביר קיילים ושזרקן באשפה, אפילו חזר ולקחן הוא עצמו, אסור. ... ... af al גב דחזר ... ... He was ... batel chashivusa. Shechazru venitla, kanotel shatrei. Thank you, beged shel... Roi laniyim. It doesn't lose its shem beged. Zeh lo katarta meshicha, sifkatcha beged. This is not like the... The Chachamim says, I argue with the Taz. Again, what happens if somebody takes it out of the garbage? I threw it in the garbage, and somebody takes it out. What's the halacha? The seller was only on the rich person whether he can go back. No, he's saying like this. He's saying that if it's gimel... whatever amot it has in the shiur, then even the ani is allowed. Even the ani is allowed to take it. Matanei kein, he says by the case of shivrei keilim, even he's not allowed to take it back, meaning even the owner, even ... for everybody. Zeh lo katarta. Or, because the Taz paskens, Taz paskens you never allowed to take it back. Sif meshiches, sifkatan chaf-hei. Nu, go ahead, take out.

Wait a sec, let's see the facts, and then we'll see the... Shin ches, seif katan chaf hei. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... No question is that it's mutar l'aniyim chutz labayis. The chazonish paskens that the person himself would not be allowed to take it back. The person himself would not be allowed to take it back. Now the shailah is like this: if you learn, yeah? Yeah. If you learn that the chesed, the Gemara is matzah nat matzah, why can't you take it back? Why can't you take it back? ... Because this machshavah, he's makneh; he wasn't makneh. But by keilim you can't have a hefker Shabbos, but a matzah... What is the question? ... Kli can be mukhan and not mukhan for half a Shabbos. I show you a case of a cup, no? After the cups, right? Why can I switch it? I was machmir and not machmir. Huh? We don't need mukhan. What do you call it? Why would it be the same case of ... on Shabbos? Once you learn that the shaylah of mukhan and not mukhan, right? So basically that's my question. Then it can be on Shabbos already. Yes. I don't see. This whole Gemara says, the Gemara is ... to mukhan, right? So why can't this Gemara become already on Shabbos too? It should be ... on Shabbos too. If the pshat is ... then the ... is ... Once you learn that it's mukhan and not mukhan, why can't it become mukhan on Shabbos? And the same Gemara, once you're telling me whatever you're telling me, then it goes back to being on Shabbos also. ... right? ... If you hold that it's ... on Shabbos, mutar, I don't see it. Why can't it become mukhan on Shabbos? And the teretz is, no. And the teretz—when ... If you see something in Gemara, I'm reading a piece of Gemara. ... on Shabbos, what happens? I'm saying, and if ... on Shabbos, what happens? Why is it mutar? What's wrong with saying goi daiti on Shabbos? What's wrong with saying goi daiti on Shabbos? I told you, what happens if a sugya is kara to kas? I asked you, open Gemara. Somebody with his cup, am I allowed to use it? Am I allowed to use it?