Hilchos Chazarah: The Ran and Rema, Returning Food on Shabbos, and Shehiyah

Transcript

There's one chiddush that there's no din of chazarah only on Erev Shabbos and not on Shabbos. There's no such thing. D'hainu, according to the Ran, which the Rama quotes, on Shabbos there's no issur chazarah. So it's very interesting to notice. So you would have said, Chavad, we don't pasken like this Ran. Yet the Rama brings it down that we do pasken like this Ran. He says clearly. Says the Ran, who wants to read it? That's erev. That's holding it the whole time, right? No, you put it down or something, whatever. So the regular din of chazarah on Shabbos that everybody knows of, that you took it off and put it back, doesn't really exist. There's no such thing. Even the worst type of chazarah, it's all mutar. Ran, perek yud, kol boi. So you would say we don't hold like this. So now tanurim is no different. All the teshuvas for him write that it has a din kira, all our tanurim today. So meileh, say in the tanur, and say on top, which is definitely kira, definitely not tanur, the stovetop, so there's no issur chazarah. So you have to take out all the books that were printed in the last... Thirty years, these beautiful English books, and say, do me a favor, stop hacking a chain. There's no such halacha, there's no hacking a chain. It doesn't exist. There's no din chazarah, period. According to this Ramban, there's no such thing. There's no such thing. And I'll take it off and put it back. It's not true. There's no such thing. Why? Because what? Because the Ran holds like that, that there's no such thing. Oh, because of Shabbos. There's no chazarah on Shabbos. It doesn't exist. We don't hold of it. We don't pasken that. A chazarah is only if you take the food off before Shabbos, that's what he's saying. You take it off before Shabbos, and then you want to put it back. He said the kula is that you should be machmir or something, no? So we'll get to that in a minute. V'tov l'hachmir. Now what does v'tov mean? It's good, you know. You don't have to write like a thirty-dollar sefer for v'tov l'hachmir, right? You don't have to. V'tov l'hachmir should have been a little note, a little P.S. on a what-you-call-it, what? What does it mean when you're saying sefarim thirty years ago? In the last thirty years, in the last thirty years, the olam haTorah is very busy with chazarah. And they write books and appliances and zachin and terutzes because it is v'tov l'hachmir. In Europe we never heard of it. Meaning, in my house when I grew up, I never heard of it. In Europe they were never machmir about— Correct. I never heard of it. Until I walked into a yeshiva and opened up a Mishnah Berurah, I never saw this v'tov l'hachmir, a chazarah on Shabbos. Where is there an issur chazarah on—what are you talking about? Okay, you're supposed to do chazarah on Shabbos. Whatever you learned during the week, chazarah on Shabbos. That's how we grew up. You knew that there was an issur chazarah on Shabbos? Pshat, you already did. Your ta'yes already the Mishnah Berurah. You never knew there's an issur bishul. The kitzur. So the truth is, the truth is, look at the Mishnah Berurah. I don't know, Mishnah Berurah... Doesn't seem to agree with the Rama, like. Instead of saying, וטוב להחמיר, יש לחוש, he talks strong language, very, very harsh, harsh language against this Rama, but not directly against Rama, like around and around. The Rama also, we'll soon see lashon Mishnah Berurah, siman קנז: וטוב להחמיר כי הרבה פוסקים חולקים על הרמ״א. So right here and there and then, you get right away that the Ran, it's a das yachid; most poskim argue with him. ועוד כי הבית יוסף סובר שגם הר״ן לא התיר אלא גבי כיר ולא בסוכה, that there's only certain cases. וגם המגן אברהם בסימן קנז... Right, ומידי דתנא שלנו היא עדיפה מכירה, who said that the Tanna shelanu is adifah mikirah. ומכל מקום, but lemaaseh, the Mishnah Berurah does turn around and say that it's mutar. ומכל מקום נראה שיש סחוס על המנהג. And what does the word minhag mean? What does the word minhag mean? Minhag. People do it. What was the word minhag? And that's what they were in Europe. That's what he's telling. Let me tell you something. Can I tell you a big yesod? Who's everybody?

In my house, in Rabbi Wolkin's house in Europe, they did that. That's right. So very good. So let me tell you a big klal. Let me tell you a big klal. Can I tell you a big klal? The Orach HaShulchan, his whole, what do you call that, platform of the sefer is to try to find zechus for the minhag against versus the way the halacha comes out. The Mishnah Berurah doesn't make a career out of that. That's not Mishnah Berurah talk. So therefore, I believe that the Mishnah Berurah here is saying that he himself is not—he's somewhere on the fence. Meaning, l'maaseh it's a Rama. I mean, Mishnah Berurah doesn't argue with the Rama. Mishnah Berurah didn't come to argue with the Rama. What the Mishnah Berurah wants to do is give you the background information that this is very, very, very controversial. Yet l'maaseh the minhag is that, so therefore he's going to try to find, to be mazbir the minhag. But it's not just where it's k'neged the halacha, the minhag, and he's trying to miyashev the minhag. It's not what it is, because it's a Rama. It's impossible to learn the Mishnah Berurah that way. Can you say that the Rama is talking about his town, where he came from? No, no, no. Rama was not talking about town. Rama was talking about—V'chein nohagim Ashkenaz. That's what he means. When the Rama talks about v'chein nohagim, that's his minhag Ashkenaz. Now when he says v'tov l'hachmir, it's just the word tov. Tov, it's a good thing. All right, a lot of good things in life. L'maaseh, Mishnah Berurah comes along and he's miyashev the minhag. Ki kvar nisbar b'poskim she'ein la'asos chazarah, im kein yesh chosh shehakedeirah yeinaser o tachas min hachaim. The problem with this is that most of the chazaras that we make today is that. That's where the problem is. In other words, even after the Mishnah Berurah, you know, the Mishnah Berurah was, I guess, his type of avodah, which didn't work. You know what I mean? And obviously it didn't make the thing retachas afterwards. Obviously, I mean, otherwise there's nothing else to read here. L'maaseh, when we put chazara, sure it makes a retachas, what are you talking about? So therefore, yesh omrim that maybe that's why they write all the sefarim today. For those thirty pages, for those thirty pages—yeah, I'm sorry, those sefarim is based on this little, l'maaseh chaim today. The chaim is retachas. Al kein ein lifakfek bazeh. Now what does the word ein lifakfek bazeh mean? No. Ein lifakfek bazeh, don't wonder about it. It's fine. Leave it alone. The minhag is that way, keep it that way. In the tannur, that's something else. That's regular chazara. But we're talking about the whole—this sheetah of chazara, maybe not on Shabbos. Rav Adi is going not with this ran. He's going stam chazara, and then chazara in a tannur could be a whole different sugya that maybe you can't do, period. Okay, this is a stam a new thing. There are more poskim like this ran that there's no problem on Erev Shabbos. It doesn't exist. So you could dance around the Mishnah Berurah. Did he mean this? Did he mean that? Did he mean this? Did he mean that? Did he mean that? I hear. But the ein lifakfek is a pretty strong language. Ein lifakfek b'davar, which means you could do it and don't feel bad about it, right? That's the word, ein lifakfek. Don't question. Problem is that the reason that he gives not to question doesn't apply b'zman hazeh. Okay, so I guess this little Mishnah Berurah gave the mechabrei sefarim the green light to make money off their sefarim. Good. No problem. I have no problem with it. Okay, no, I'm just saying, I'm just—okay. My question, though, is as follows, okay? Let's say you took it off, all right? Now, so what should you do? It happened. So I'm not allowed to put it back? I'm allowed to put it back? Well, what's the story? It happened. Let's say you took it off and you put it down. You took off the challah, you took it and you put it down. Now you don't have food for Shabbos, so what's the next step? So when it says v'tov l'hachmir— What's the problem? It's cold. When it says v'tov— Eat what cold? The food. It's not ready yet? What's the... I don't know, but why would someone eat cold food on Shabbos? So I'm asking, v'tov l'hachmir means what? See, the Mishnah Berurah maybe is talking about before I take it off. But I don't see in the story then, so before you take it off, just do it with the tenai of chazarah. Right. No, but I'm saying v'tov l'hachmir means what? You mean v'tov l'hachmir to do with the tenai, that's all, so the whole story is really irrelevant. V'tov l'hachmir is just be a daas to l'hachmir. Yeah? I mean, it's not on the issur. Just don't put it down. Don't do the tenai of chazarah to ruin it, okay? How about this? Let's say you took it off and it happened. You took it off and it happened. You aren't a—

You didn't do the tenai, okay? So the truth is, there is such a rag that it's mutar to put it back anyway, right? So how about that case? Would he still hold v'tov l'hachmir in such a case? It's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. It is, because you don't need the food. Let me explain to you something. When you have a family full of children, there's no eid cold. The way it works is either you have food for Shabbos or they go hungry. No, I'm saying what Reb Yitzchok wants to say, that I told l'hachmir even after you did it, tov l'hachmir. No, I would say v'tov l'hachmir maybe means that you should taka ask the chazara once you took it off. Don't put it back. That's what I'm saying, you need to call me. Or fix, or find an eitzah for the chazara. Or maybe in such a case there's no tov l'hachmir. I'm asking, where is the v'tov l'hachmir? The tov l'hachmir of this ran is once you took it off—I'm sorry, before you took it off, don't take it off and think, Oh, I have a ran, so there's no problem. Or v'tov l'hachmir is once there's a problem, so maybe v'tov l'hachmir not to put it back. So what's your eitzah? So the truth is, I could go and get a goy to put it back, no? So there's a biur halacha about this. Could you go ask a goy to make chazara for you? So the Biur Halacha holds yes, and the Chazon Ish holds no. The Biur Halacha brings down that yes, you're allowed to ask a goy. Ma she'ein kein, the Chazon Ish holds that you can't. Do you have the Chazon Ish here in the back? Yeah, he has, sure. Here's the Rama, no? ... eino Yehudi. Yeah. Dino k'shachach b'shachach. Right, so what does the Bihalacha say? Yeah. One second here. V'im hechzirim ein Yehudi b'Shabbos, right? Dino k'shachach. No, but that's if it happened. The question is if you're allowed to go ask the goy to do it. That's the question. Are you allowed to go ask the goy to do it, yeah? V'chein, afilu... one second. So the Chazon Ish holds not. The Chazon Ish holds you can never ask a goy to do it. Oh, that's what I want to talk about. That's exactly where I'm getting at. You ready? Yeah. Let's find the Chazon Ish, and he says an interesting sevara, the Chazon Ish. You hear what the Chazon Ish wants to ta'ina? Says the Chazon Ish that the issur is not the chazarah, but the issur is to have it muchzar. It's not the ma'aseh; it's the totza'ah of having it put back. Right? It's a bihalacha. The Bihalacha says that it's mutar, which Bihalacha are you reading? Okay, v'im hechzira eina Yehudi. Yeah, go ahead. Hainu l'tzorech Yisrael, hinei bilvush kasav davka shelo b'yedias Yisrael. How come I— which one are you using? V'im hechzir Yisrael... Wait, wait, we saw... hainu l'tzorech Yisrael, okay? V'hinei bilvush kasav davka shelo b'yedias Yisrael. D'ilav hachi, mischavlina hira, d'tama d'mutar b'ein Yehudi l'tzorech Yisrael. Yeah, but he say not like that, that a goy is allowed to put it back. Okay, that's this bihalach, right? This is it. You see? V'mechzirin eini Yehudi. V'mechzirin eini Yehudi. Okay, this right here, that a goy is allowed to put it back. Says the Chazon Ish not that way. Why? He says you're not gaining anything. The fact that it's muchzar is the issur, not the chazarah. So you have to take it off the fire. You can't have a matzav where it's muchzar. Did you give it to Izzy? He gave it to him? Did he return anything? Did you hear anything from him? You have it? Chayav l'salka. You have it?

No, but it's by—I have the long; you have the shorter ones. You see what I'm saying? ... Yeah, here I have it. So my question is like this: if you hold of the Ran, right, and you hold of tov l'hachmir, not to make chazara, so maybe you can have a goy do it. Would the Ran say that far, that even a goy shouldn't do it? According to the Ran, you want to be machmir on this Ran, tov l'hachmir not to make chazara, maybe in such a case even the Chazon Ish would be maskim. It's only a chumra, the whole thing, if you hold of the Ran. Okay, now soon I'm going to explain this to you. Reb Shlomo Zalman Orbach, in all his shmiras Shabbos k'hilchasahs, you know, teshuvos and psakim, it says clearly this yesod, that whenever you have a questionable, a questionable issue on chazara, you could always be mitztaref this Ran. It's a Rama. I mean, why would you argue on a mefurash Rama, which the Mishnah Berurah says ein lefakfek alav? It's ein lefakfek. I don't say it's a mefurash Rama that it's mutar chazara. So it comes out that chazara really is weak, l'choira, right? Whenever you have an issue, whenever you have an issue, you have this Ran, right? So even the Chazon Ish... Who says that you can't do al yedei goy? But if we follow this klal of the Ran, so in the toiv l'hachmir, I don't think you have to have that a goy should do it for you. So maybe l'chatchila, taka, if you want to be machmir and not use this Ran, then get a goy and that's it, and then it's even l'chatchila, all right? So if you took it off on Shabbos and it came down, and then you put it down, just get a goy and he'll put it back for you, all right. Is it only when we have plata, or what's going on? No, you're allowed to make chazarah. There's no issur chazarah on Shabbos. Only plata. Why is it considered al gaba? I don't see the difference. Kirah is considered al gaba. I don't know, it's not. Kirah is considered gaba; tanur is considered tochah. The top is this is gaba, it's not called tochah. Unless he means this. He means this Mishnah Berurah, that it's retachas. That's maybe what he means. Yeah, but l'maaseh, Mishnah Berurah—what do you call it? You see clearly, the Rama says clearly that the tanur is kirah and it's mutar. Even the tanur is mutar, so why would you say differently? Snifin more. Okay, good. So al kol panim, what do we have? We have it, this Ran. Okay. What happens if he taka put it back? Okay, I see you closed it. Can you put it back? Is that okay with you? You're not getting hot. If you don't mind, nothing personal. I love you dearly. Okay. Okay, so what do we have? We have over here. A chiddush. What about the following shaila? You went and you put back something you took off on Shabbos. What would you say? Refuah is halacha, which is this Rambam: Over v'shiyer, v'machzir meini Yehudi b'Shabbos, dina k'shachach. V'machzira Yisrael, dinoi k'over v'shoh. So it's like he was over v'shoh. Mameila what? If it's over, meizid. What's the halacha by meizid? Says the Mishnah Berurah, go ahead, who wants to read? Yitzi, read the Mishnah Berurah. In case you took off a pot, a cholent, and you put it down, and now you want to put it back. So you're not allowed to put it back, and you did put it back. What happens? V'machzira Yisrael b'Shabbos, afilu b'shogeg, dina k'over v'shoh b'meizid, v'asur, im nitztamek v'yafeh loi. Ha'tam d'machmirin b'chazarah tefei mi'b'shiyah, shem d'ka avid ma'aseh. So a chazarah by mistake is like a meizid of a chazarah, and it's asur. V'ha'im magen Avraham shepasal lachem sharim b'zeh, me'achar shey'mevushal kodem kol tzarko v'hu shogeg. V'da, d'din zeh hu afilu shehitztrameda pos pas b'sof kedei sheyesh bo b'shiyah mutar, k'maicha b'medusoi. Hacha b'chazarah shav meim l'dina, d'ha l'kula alma...

Chazarah asa, afilu misbashel, so what's the halacha l'maaseh? It would become aser. I hold this Mishnah Berurah is wrong. And of course I'm just saying it for shock value, but I'm saying those words for shock value. But my kashya is very strong on this Mishnah Berurah. Yes, we just learned that if a person did chazarah by mistake on Shabbos, he can't eat the food. Maybe l'acherim it's mutar? By mistake. Shogeg, dina k'meizid. If a person by mistake put it back, the halacha is like a meizid. What are you trying to refute? It's klar, right? Okay, let's look at this Biur Halacha. V'mechzir Yisrael... also, we'll see. V'mechzir Yisrael says the Biur Halacha, ... d'ilav hachi, ein l'hachmir b'di'eved. The Ran holds there is no chazarah. What about that? It says al divrei hakol anyway. So right away, you are contradicting yourself, minei ubei, unless you learn that this Biur Halacha shows me that he didn't really mekabel this Ran l'halacha. Otherwise, so stam the whole story doesn't apply. You like it, huh? It was a big hit in Lakewood. I got reports back, this is a good deal. Yeah, it's klar. But what do you do with this Biur Halacha? I don't understand. This Biur Halacha, unless he meant in the case, it's not in the hilchos Shabbos. Maybe he meant, you know, in the issur Shabbos it doesn't count, because... That's right. No, fakert, there's nothing. There's no story, because there's no issur chazara. And even if you did it by mistake, it's nothing, because it's anyway machlokes of the issur chazara. So again, that's the whole story doesn't apply. So that's what it is. Halacha l'maaseh, we came out like this: that in case you want to put it back and you can't find the guy and this and that, toiv l'hachmir. Okay, so you don't want to be machmir this, put it back yourself. You want to be a real frum and you have someone in the house that's a maid, ask the maid to do it. By mistake you put it back anyway, there's nothing left. If by mistake you put it back anyway, what's the halacha? Chayav, according to this biur halacha, it shouldn't be a safek, because there is such a ratzon unless the biur halacha didn't hold of this ratzon. Okay. There's a second chiddush in this Rama, and that is— That's exactly what I'm telling you. We say it's mutar, it could be meikel. That's exactly what I'm telling you. It's exactly what I'm telling you. How could be over v'shogeg, you're not allowed to put it back. Why not? I mean, there's no such story, unless maybe—on Motzaei Shabbos, the chazara of Erev Shabbos might be a story. If it was over v'shogeg, the chazara of Erev Shabbos maybe. Maybe you'll have a problem with that, maybe. Hagahah, it's not really bishul b'Shabbos, anyway. It wouldn't have the klal of bishul b'Shabbos; it's not Shabbos on Erev Shabbos. It's דין חזרה בערב שבת. Okay, so let's see now the next halacha of chazara of Erev Shabbos. Now you know about this, right, that there's a din chazara on Erev Shabbos. You knew about it? You didn't know. Okay, so now I'm going to tell you a big chiddush, that the Rama is עולם הפוך ראיתי; העליונים למטה ותחתונים למעלה. On Shabbos, says the Ramah, there is no chazarah. On Erev Shabbos, there is a chazarah, okay? Imagine, go to any guy, tell him, is there a chazarah on Tuesday night? Huh? What are you talking about? On Shabbos? Shabbos, no chazarah. What are you talking about? So you go, first of all, it's not Tuesday night. I'm exaggerating. I'm making a shock value, also shock value. We're not talking about mamish Tuesday night, but we're talking about Erev Shabbos, right before the zman, whatever, there's an issur chazarah. On Shabbos, no issur chazarah whatsoever. What are you talking about? No, no, no. He took it off Erev Shabbos, he put it back Erev Shabbos. There's an issur chazarah. That's the only time there's an issur chazarah. Tell you, it's the next line, the Ramah: Yesh omrim, d'chol shehu סמוך לחשיכה, anything which is סמוך לחשיכה, or סמוך לברכו, or before Barchu, which is kabbalas Shabbos didan, right? Because you don't need the night. Let's say if a guy makes an early Shabbos, so it's Barchu of an early Shabbos. Im hu סמוך כל כך, it's that close to Shabbos, that you would not be able to cook it. And when I say cook it, I don't mean cook; I mean to make it hot. And be medayek in those words, you don't need bishul bishul, but you need retichah, right? Just saying the word lartichah is clear.

All you need is that it should become hot. So let's say it's a bigger chunk, takes a little more time to get hot, but not boil, not to cook. Excuse me, not to boil, not to cook. We don't need cooking. Cooking takes a long time. So we need a case not raw to cooking, but cold to hot. After it was once cooked and it cooled off. Okay. So, אי אפשר להרתיחו מבעוד יום, so that amount of time, if you put it erev Shabbos סמוך לחשיכה, דינו כמו בשבת עצמו, that there would be an issur chazarah, okay? And it's funny because even though— Yes, you did. Yes, you did. The story is, how else did you take— I mean, what? Yeah, whatever you cooked it, but you took it off and put it back, otherwise it's not chazarah, otherwise it's nothing. It's a shiur. Okay, so the story is that it's on and you took it off. Now, we're still going to learn the reason for this halacha. It's erev Shabbos. So the pashut, the reason, the way the Mishnah Berurah says it, just to say it simply, we're afraid you might come to do chazarah on Shabbos. Pashut, I would have said, because if you do chazarah right before Shabbos, the next step is you'll do chazarah on Shabbos. It's not so clear. It's not mashma in the Mishnah Berurah that it's about that. It's mashma it's a little bit about something else, but it's a little more complicated than just chazarah before Shabbos, chazarah on Shabbos, okay? If I let you do it two minutes before, you might come to do it two minutes after. I would have wanted the Mishnah Berurah to say that, but it's not what the Mishnah Berurah says, okay? Anyways, v'yesh mekilin. So even on this, v'yesh mekilin, and v'minig l'hakel, the minhag is takkeh meikel, ach tov l'hachmir. Now, he doesn't use the same language. Notice, before he said what? V'tov l'hachmir. Here he says, tov l'hachmir, makom she'ein tzarich kol kach. So it's even less, right? B'makom she'ein tzarich kol kach. In the first case, where there's no chazarah on Shabbos, the Ran, toiv l'hachmir. Here he uses lashon, toiv l'hachmir, makom she'ein tzarich kol kach. What's a case of ein tzarich kol kach? Is the case that I don't need the food, so just don't use it? It'll be warm. Yeah, whatever it is. I'm saying whatever it is. You don't need either. You don't need the food. How about this? How about you want to take it off to fix it? It's not that important. That's what he's referring to. He's not referring to once you took it off, don't put it back. Maybe he's referring, don't take it off to put it back, samuch l'chasheichah, when there's no real need. Now what do I mean? Today, when it's on the stove, you could fix it or put in the spices. But let's say you had it in the oven. You're not going to put your hand in the oven and then put your head in there and put spices in there, right? I want to know, is the case because you don't need the food, or when you don't need me, you don't need the chazarah. Don't take it off to put it on. You don't need to. Huh? The t'naiim are irrelevant. We're going to learn this now. The t'naiim are irrelevant. It's not about t'naiim, because you're allowed to put it on gabei karka. It has nothing to do with the t'naiim. It has to do with one thing: taking it off and putting it back. And there's a chashash you might do it on Shabbos. If I put it down on the karka, it makes no difference. We're going to soon learn this, okay? This is in se'if katan ayin beis. If you look at se'if katan ayin beis, Mishnah Berurah says it clearly: והיינו רק לענין בין גרופה וקטומה כמו בשבת, אבל לענין דעת להחזיר, שליכא גבי קרקע לא בעינן בזה. Beis Yosef brings a different shita about this. He brings the shitas Rishonim that argues on this. We'll talk about it in a few minutes. Right now, to trot along, you know, step by step, let's just understand that the word b'makom she'ein tzarich kol kach is not really defined in the Mishnah Berurah. I don't really know what he means. Either he doesn't need the food, or he doesn't need the whole, you know, take it off and put it back. Maybe he's referring to the chazarah. You don't need to take it off, so don't take it off. Some foods you do have to take off. In order to fix it, you gotta put your hand. Let's say you want to taste to see if it's good. You're not gonna stick your hand in the head in the oven. You gotta take it out of the oven, right? So maybe that's what he means, ein tzarich kol kach. Or takki means that once I took it off, and if I don't really need the food, I shouldn't put it back. If you don't need that to the house, you don't need keniyah chagavikach, because the only shaylah is, do you have a blech or not? Good. So let me discuss with you a few things. We're gonna learn a little bit later. Things I didn't catch up. We're gonna learn a little bit later. I saw you hand in the cookie jar. Maladetz, you're a tzaddik yesod olam. When you go back, I'm gonna put it on anyway, so don't worry about it. Go, go, go there. If you want it to warm up, we'll stay out for five minutes, and then you'll have five minutes of... But if you go back now, here he's coming also. The next guy's coming. Put it on. Go ahead. Turn it off. Go ahead.

Turn the button. Go ahead. Turn it on. Come on, turn the button. Shkoyach, thanks. It's okay, put some glue there. It doesn't make a difference. You can play all you want with the button. Okay. Okay. You hear? Why are they cold? Cold on my pants. It's okay. Basically, it sits down, we'll put it right back on. Now listen carefully, hear? So listen good. So what do we have? We have over here, l'choira—yeah, so he said, what's the difference, a blech, right? So b'zman hazeh it's really not negeiah. I'll tell you how it's negeiah. Doesn't Reb Elyashiv—excuse me—doesn't the Chazon Ish hold that a blech does not considered garuf v'katum; it just makes it eino derech bishul? Famous kashya. In Eretz Yisrael they talk about this, the big poskim hamehandeles. B, let's say in an oven you don't need a blech. Let's say if you learned R' Moshe's teshuva that way, you don't need a blech in an oven, which most people don't. Nobody puts a blech in an oven. You know that, right? Okay, most people do not put a blech in an oven. Who puts? Well, I just— Nobody's... I'm... I do. Nobody? Some people. No, the regular case of— Okay, but אי למעשה have a blech on top for soup. It's easy. Okay. Good, good, good, good, good, good, good. Okay, okay, it's easy. L'maaseh, you have a blech or you don't have a blech? On top. Again, do you have a blech or you don't have a blech? On the bottom you have? Oh, I don't care what the reason, because we spoke about this. I'd rather hold you do need a blech, but that's not the point. I spoke from David, and David said you need a blech. I spoke from last week about it. That's why I sent Izzy for. Yeah, he holds you need a blech. There's no reason why you shouldn't need a blech inside, but all right, that's not the point now. But you have that—what's covering already the fire? It's not called covering. You see, it's open. What do you mean? The fire, the things are open. What do you mean? There's holes there. Okay, that's irrelevant. There are those that say it's covered because that's called the blech, the thing on the bottom. Not so pashut. The fire is a seen; you can see the fire, huh? Yeah, he brings it down. Ribbiak wants to say this chiddush, that's considered like a blech. Reb David said clearly, you need shiur in a tanur, you need a blech, clearly. It's Rav Moshe's teshuva. You know what it is? There's two teshuvos from Rav Moshe. You know what I'm talking about, the two teshuvos? Okay, he brings it down the way I said it. You need a four-cornered box for shia. You know why he brought it down that way? Because he was reading the teshuva the way the teshuva was originally written. Then there was a revised teshuva by a grandson. The grandson went and decided to make—yeah, he decided to make polished, to give polish to Rav Moshe. He figured that if he puts in the correct digduk, like the conservative, you know, the conservative with the tefillah, then it would look more prettier. It's a completely different teshuva, you know that? It's amazing, when you read it, it reads completely different. The Nuiger Moshe, chelek daled. It's very—not only that, I chapped it. Where did I chap it? Because it was nogea to me. I got into a big fight in Lakewood over this. This was the big story. My last controversy was this. I got up and I said, Rav Moshe holds—he brings it down that way—that Rav Moshe holds that for shia in an oven, you need a four-cornered box, right? So I also said it that way. It's pashut like that. You read the teshuva. I didn't read the new chelek daled. I read the teshuva the way it's brought down in Aider. The teshuva was originally written to Aider. The teshuva was written to Aider. Aider brings in the sefer that way, okay? The new one reads differently, and there that's not— Not clear what Ramoisha meant. The way it's written, it's not clear that you need for shia thing, okay? It doesn't say you don't need, but it's not clear, okay? That's what happens when you say kol hamosif gorea, especially when the mosif himself is a garua. That's what happens. So you end up having teshuvos which Ramoisha had a din of a navi and a meira rav, the ayin zkeinim, and some guy went and fapatchked because he decided it has to be written differently, okay? But he changed the whole... or just that teshuva? Obviously he must have changed everything. Why would he only change that? So nothing. So I don't want to get into the politics of the last years of Ramoisha's life, but that's what happened. He brings it that way. He brings it clearly. You need a four-cornered box for shia according to Ramoisha, correct? For shia, not for chazar. For shia, kol shekein chazar, and that's how Ramoisha writes it. Okay, bottom line is, the world, obviously this guy sent the world down a path that you don't need. You don't need. It's funny that Reb Shimon Eider himself, in his English part, writes that you don't need, and I don't understand that. He makes this cheshbon, anyway you don't need a blech, it's only a chumrah, so therefore on the bottom you don't need it. He makes this...

That you said, okay. I noticed on Shabbos your blue sefer, that, what's it called, in Klalim, in the back he has a nispach about it, that Rav Moshe's teshuvos are not the same. The one in the back, he has like osafos, siman beis, Klalim. That blue sefer, you'll see he brings both teshuvos. He shows you that the teshuvos don't match. I chapped it on my own because I got into trouble because I said it this way. They started yelling at me, and everybody in the yeshiva—it was a tumult in the yeshiva, it was like a big thing. I said this and they said the opposite, and people were going to call me up. It was like a whole... and I kept on fighting. It doesn't make sense. I don't understand it. Well, why would you not need—if you put on top, you need on the bottom. What's the difference? Sicha better. So someone told me that Rabbi Yaakov says, yochu yovar. Someone told me—I didn't even see it inside. Okay. Okay, whatever. I was thinking about it during the... whatever, in the shiur itself I was also mesupak. Maybe, maybe that would be the teretz to why, why... Yeah, so how does it help you, right? They don't... it doesn't make sense, right? The whole thing—they don't see the fire. They do see the fire. That's how you cook, right? The whole thing is a vilde zach. I had such a hava amina. I said maybe it's because they hold that it's not open fire. But what's the difference? It's an oven. It's an oven. What are you talking about? Mamash how you cook in an oven. What was that? If you cook it that way, as long as you don't see the fire, you won't be... Okay, to make a long story short, to make a long... of course you might be. Why not? A hundred percent, Rafi, there's nothing. Of course you might be. It's pashut. Okay. But kitzur, for some reason, for some reason, there was a ta'us, and l'maaseh the olam does not put a blech inside the oven when they do shiah with an open oven. A lot of people keep the oven open on Shabbos. A lot of people do it, and they keep the food in and they take the food out. It's a regular case, right? So if you hold that there's a problem of chazara, so you're not allowed to put back into the oven, right? There's a problem of chazara; you're not allowed to put back into the oven. So what about this case, right? I forgot already how we got to this. Right, so if you're saying it's anyway not nogea because garuf v'katum, no, it's not. No, it's not, in the oven. Yeah, but we're machmir anyway. We're machmir l'chumra that even when it's mevushal, we still have the blech. So if you're machmir on top and you don't want to put the thing back in, so then you're in trouble. It's like אין למעשה. If you want to not do this ran, which means you want to make chazara on an Erev Shabbos, it's asur, and you need garuf v'katum for that, and in the oven that's not called garuf v'katum, so you have trouble. And you can't even compare it to shiah, because shiah is a lot different; this is regular chazara. If you're not going to use the blech for shiah in the oven, you want to return it five minutes before Shabbos, you can't put the food back in. So it comes out, unless you say, I don't hold of this ran. Okay, so don't hold of the ran, fine, I'm just saying. But if you want to be machmir on this ran, it comes out you cannot put food back into the oven five minutes before Shabbos. So either you have the problem of chazonish. So in Eretz Yisrael they deal with the Chazon Ish. They say that the whole Chazon Ish is anyway not so niskabel. People do use a blech; Chazon Ish is a chiddush. So on this, toiv l'hachmir of the Rama, you're not mechuyav on an Erev Shabbos to worry about the Chazon Ish. What's the whole thing of the Shabbos mode on the oven? That's something else; that has nothing to do with Shabbos mode. No, they use this thing, this like a cup, they turn around. Chazonish holds that a blech is not called garuf v'katum. Not called garvekat. I thought the reason was because it's metal. Yes, he holds it's not called garvekat. Yes, what they do is they make it like it's a different weird bishul. They put something on top, I told you. You take a can of tuna, and they turn it upside down, so therefore it's not normal. Who cooks like that? You put a can of tuna on the fire? Kli hafuch, like you... Kli hafuch. They bring the... covering the fire, and then you put the tuna fish. Kli hafuch, that's what they do. They take this tuna fish can, they turn it upside down. Kedeira hafucha. They use the kedeira hafucha system. But l'maaseh, the regular blech won't help you. Why isn't the regular blech just as good? Why isn't what? Why isn't the regular blech? Because he holds it's not garvekat. Why not? Because he holds it's not. That's not called garvekat. The tuna fish can means that it's not derech bishul. He says you have metal pieces there. He holds that's called metal pieces. It's asur. But the tuna fish thing, it doesn't metal pieces. Right, but tuna fish is weird. You ever see a guy cook a pot on top of a pot? Maybe in twenty years it'll become, and then you'll go back to Chazon Ish and you'll find a different thing. He'll change it then, that's all. In the meantime, nobody cooks a tuna fish can. All right? Now, kitzer, let's go to this. It's not normal. Nobody puts a tuna fish can under his pot.

Now, let's go weiter, okay? Yeish omrim, yeish omrim, okay? So it says, so I have a shaylah for you. Is this halacha of chazarah on Erev Shabbos a din in chazarah, or it's a new type of shiur? Is it chazarah, or is it shiur? That this is a shiur that's aser. Normal shiur is mutar, but if I put it back two minutes—if I was mesha'yed from two minutes before Shabbos, that's aser. Shiur means I have to put it on a half hour before, l'ma'aseh afkamina, okay? So if you calm down and you let me talk, you'll see. Of course there's an afkamina, okay? Now, if you look at the Rama, you'll notice that he didn't say one word of chazarah, and he didn't say one word of shiur, right? So the word shiur and chazarah is not found in this passage, all right? But you're going to say, but he brought it down in the context of chazarah, right? He brings out se'if beis, he didn't bring in se'if aleph. Yeah, but he brings out temunah here too. Look at the previous halacha, v'yeish omrim, the previous one, v'yeish omrim... That's not the temunah, no? So therefore, you can't come and tell me that that's in the context of shiur, and chazarah, not shiur. So therefore, you don't have a clear—l'maaseh, the Mishnah Berurah in se'if katan ayin says clearly that it's chazarah. Okay, so who's going to read the Mishnah Berurah, se'if katan ayin? Go ahead, quickly read the Mishnah Berurah. We're running out of time. If we're asking l'hachzir, even Tuesday night, even in the morning, so איזה שיעור זמן, says the Chacham. So even in the morning you wouldn't be allowed. We make chazarah on Erev Shabbos, and that, of course, is crazy. The person has to cook; he has to be able to... So let's stop for one minute here. He talks about what? Chazarah, chazarah, chazarah. It's clear, דיני חזרה. He says clearly. He says clearly, שייך דיני חזרה, דבערב שבת שייך דיני חזרה. He continues and he says that this is the yesh omrim, ששכירא מא, but the yesh mekilim is Rashi v'Siyato, דלא גזרו חזרה כי משחשיכה ולא מיבעיא. So pashut, he means because this is shehiya; it's not chazarah. This is not a case of chazarah; it's a case of shehiya. You look at the Rishonim, that's how the Rishonim, those Rishonim bring it out that way. Hagahah Mishnah Berurah doesn't bring it out that way, right? Because Mishnah Berurah just says that there's no problem of chazarah in such a case. But the real way to go is to emphasize, because it's shehiya; it's a regular case of shehiya. So this is shehiya, not chazarah. So what is the other shitah hold? It's chazarah, not shehiya. Okay, this is a very big problem here. You ready? Look at the Mishnah Berurah, se'if katan ayin beis, and he says clearly that all the dinim of chazarah don't apply. So it's funny, he starts off that all the dinim of chazarah apply on Erev Shabbos. No, they don't. Actually, none of them do. There is no sugya. You don't need karka. So what's the only thing that's nogea? Gruf v'ktum. Gruf v'ktum is more about shiah than anything else. Remember we spoke about this, the sharatzin on the bottom, that maybe the ikar din of gruf even by chazarah is only about shiah. So shiah dika chitui dika halacha. It's very simple. You see? You gotta pay attention, so you should. It's late. The bottom line is that the dinim of chazarah do not apply to this chazarah. The only thing that applies is gruf v'ktum, which is more about shiah than anything else, right? I'm going to show you even further. You ready? When the Mishnah Berurah brings, in the previous, what we just learned, seif katan ayin, he says that you're not allowed to do it erev Shabbos like you're not allowed to do it on Shabbos, kula chad gezeirah hi. Does he bring mechsik k'mevashel, which is the real reason for chazarah? Which reason does he bring? Pilei plaim. This Mishnah Berurah, you should know, it was silent. When I said it over, this Mishnah Berurah, it was silent in the room, like, whoa. First of all, what is Mishnah Berurah?

Mishpachah is going out of his way and talk about chazarah now. He just says it's chazarah. We spoke about chazarah. What does he want? I don't even know what he wants. It's like extra talk, shem yechat. On Shabbos, it's like a whole new thing. On Shabbos, ash shem yechat. That's kula chad gezeirah. It's kula chad gezeirah. What do you need for? Just say it's kula chad gezeirah. It's just like in al do chazarah on Shabbos. What do you need? I don't—what do you need? And that's not the real reason for chazarah. The real reason for chazarah is mechsik mevashel. So what are you talking about? What's the real reason, the main reason? Huh? I understand, but Mishnah Berurah in his text—ah, you're saying because it's leshitas. That's why he spoke. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. I was going to say a little different. I wanted to tie in this nekudah. Maybe the ikar nekudah is the Rabbeinu Tam, not the Mechzi kemevashel of it, right? Shem yechat, and therefore the only halacha that applies is the grufah ketumah, not all the halachos of chazarah. Since the ikar nekudah is a shittic halacha of shem yechat, so only the halacha of shiur applies, of grufah ketumah. The daitel l'hachsir we spoke about—remember that we said that the two nekudos, the grufah ketumah might be al shem yechat. The daitel l'hachsir is because of mechsik mevashel and those halachos, right? So it could be that Mishnah Berurah is beautiful. So I heard that in Eretz Yisrael they say a different vort, that the reason why the dinei chazarah don't apply, because you have them anyway, because it's daitel l'hachsir anyway. I mean, why on Erev Shabbos Yizchor not finished? You're cooking for Shabbos. Just like the Mishnah Berurah says, every time you have one in the tenai daito l'hachzir, so you don't have a problem. It's not mashma that way. The lashon is mashma that you don't—what? Yeah, so whatever, hezech wants to put back. I mean, hanicha is also the same yesod: you finish cooking, you're not finished cooking Erev Shabbos. No, I understand, but I could hear that the vort is, once it's called a—because even the Biur Halacha is mistapek with a gabi karka with a daito l'hachzir. Yeah, I understand, but the vort could be—I hear it's a vort. They're saying a vort: on Erev Shabbos it's always a daito l'hachzir. What else are you taking it off for Erev Shabbos? But the mashma'os is not that way anyway, because what's the mashma'os? Aval l'inyan daito l'hachzir, lo be'inan b'zeh. It's mashma you know the tenaiim don't exist. It's mashma the halachos don't exist. Now, if the halachos don't exist, so it's more about shehiya than it is about chazarah, right? Okay. This l'choirah is the diyuk that I wanted to ta'ina, the Mishnah Berurah, unless you say good, because anyway it's Tosafos, maybe Tosafos Rabbeinu Tam, and maybe—I don't know. I mean, because you're not muchrach to come and say that this is Rabbeinu Tam. I'm saying maybe it's only Rabbeinu Tam. Okay, maybe. The only thing is, I do want to point out, the Beis Yosef brings down a shita that holds that it's even dinei chazarah also, which means daito l'hachzir, so because he holds chazarah d'kalach, maybe that's the machlokes. He was only a shita d'kalach, right? Therefore only grufah is the issue, yeah? Mashenkein the other shita the Beis Yosef brings, I think Geonim, the different Rishonim, is because they held it was more shehiya. Okay. Now, v'chai l'gamri. Look how the Mishnah Berurah continues, v'chai l'gamri, yeah? V'chai l'gamri, shari l'hachzir, some mamash, afilu eino grufah u'ketumah. What halacha is that? That's halachah shehiya. You see, Klal, he's saying a meidike vort, that this, this, but the din of shiya might apply. And I'll prove it to you. You ready? That that's what maybe this is what it means. He says, K'mo shekasuv se'if aleph. What is se'if aleph? Shiya, right? That's what he means. You want to know where really this is? This is a Magen Avraham. Look at the Magen Avraham, the Tosefes Shabbos. You want to know where this Magen Avraham really is? Not here. The Magen Avraham is the continuation of Ayin Gimel. Ayin Gimel is also Magen Avraham, you hear? Shabbos atzmo, v'davka acha shenigmar kol bishlah kedei. U'menicho lamed al hakir ad erev lishmor chuma. B'zeh hu d'machmirinan. That's davka when it's misbashel kol tzarko, because then you would put it back on Shabbos. But if it's not misbashel kol tzarko, no person would put it back. Hagam ayesh shayla, because k'maichal ben Drusai, right, you wouldn't put it back. Why does he say if it's not misbashel kol tzarko? I thought he holds you're not allowed to put it back; it's a chiyuv chatos even when it's k'maichal ben Drusai. What's the case here? The case is it's misbashel kol tzarko and not misbashel kol tzarko, yeah? How about if it's not nisbashel at all? Huh? It would be even better. So when they're palging, what's the shita that's—

V'yesh machmirim gam b'zeh mishum lo plug. So it should be aser even when—it doesn't matter, whichever stage you take it off, you shouldn't be allowed to put it back, right? Okay. Says the Magen Avraham, ... v'chayiluk gami, though, is mutar. He's not talking about shiur. He's not talking about the din of kedeirah chayasa. He's going back on this. This is mamash the Magen Avraham. Look it up. It's a peledike thing. The Mishnah Berurah borrowed from here, this Magen Avraham, and he stuck it into here, and he made it a din in tzif aleph. It's not in tzif aleph. It's this vort. Are we choshesh in a case where you wouldn't—nobody would put a chayiluk l'gamri back on the pot? Would a guy take a chayiluk l'gamri and put it back on Shabbos? Of course not, right? So what's the nafka mina? So even the yesh machmirim is worried about what? About what would you do on Shabbos, right? So what about if it's k'maichal ben D'rosai, but it's not nisbashel kol tzarko? Huh? No. You only have nisbashel kol tzarko and lo nisbashel kol tzarko. Maybe it's not lo nisbashel bichlal. What do you mean? No, kol tzarko, a little bit. But it's not kol tzarko. But you don't know that. What happens if it's—you don't know. You just made up something. There's k'maichal ben D'rosai, right? And then if I put it back, I'm chayav chatos. Then this is nisbashel kol tzarko, and then there's lo nisbashel kol tzarko. What's lo nisbashel? I don't know. You should have told me a shiur. Anything less than nisbashel kol tzarko. You don't know that. You don't know that. You don't know that. So then what do you need chai legamri, shari? Chai legamri, there's no, first of all, no mistake, and second of all, there's no sugya, even Rabbanan. Any shita would permit that to be mashma, because you're not going to be ... You're not expecting for it to be ready. You just said shehiya. I don't want shehiya. I'm telling you, you wouldn't put it back on the fire. I'm telling you it's a hemshech of this ... The first shita would hold that it's only in this bishul called tzarka, yeah? What about when it's lo nisbashel kol tzarko? That shita would say. I, it's asur to put it back when it's lo nisbashel kol tzarko on Shabbos, but on Erev Shabbos... So I'm asking you, if the problem is we're afraid you might do it on Shabbos, right, would you do this on Shabbos? No, because it's a chiyuv d'Oraisa. That's the point. It's a chiyuv d'Oraisa, you wouldn't do it. But what about if it's k'maicha ben D'Rosai? Huh? You're missing my point. You're missing my point. But it's only a chashash of the Mishnah Berurah, right? It's a— even the Mishnah Berurah himself, who says k'maicha ben D'Rosai you're not allowed to do it, he says you choshesh those shitos, right? By bishul on Shabbos, Mishnah Berurah just says to be choshesh for those shitos. Mishnah Berurah says it's a chashash for those shitos. He says since machlokes Rishonim, you should be choshesh those shitos. So for the chazarah of it, you should have been machmir the other way. Okay, I don't want to lose the oilem. You know my main nekudah over here, what I want is, you see that he took this out from over here and he put it in over here to say that it doesn't have the dinei chazarah, but it only has garuf v'katum and the din of chai. Tsmash, when he was learning the din of chai, is not because of the gezeirah you might put it back or not put it back. He borrowed it from there and put it here, and I see another thing, that he paskens like the Yesh Machmirim. Even though in the klali hapsak you don't pasken like the Yesh Machmirim. He brings a stam in the Yesh Machmirim, so he must pasken like the stamah. But the fact that he brings this shtickel Magen Avraham, this Magen Avraham is only with the shitah of the Yesh Machmirim. Yesh machmirim lo plug, but chai legamri is mutar. So he must pasken like the Yesh Machmirim, no? Unless he took it and he divided and he held it's two things. We don't pasken like the Yesh Machmirim, and this chai legamri has something to do with shehiya, nothing to do with this halachah. Ah, I stumped you. Come on, let's go, no? Of course you're following. The Yesh Machmirim, if you hold this is a hemshech of the Yesh Machmirim, the Yesh Machmirim of the Mishnah Berurah, gam b'zeh mishum lo plug, but chai legamri is mutar. That's the Magen Avraham. For some reason he took that piece of Magen Avraham, which has nothing to do with here; it has to do with over here, and he stuck it in over here and he said like se'if aleph. So I'm telling you because he was learning it's a shi'ah, obviously. Chazar doesn't apply, but she'ah does apply. Aval lemaaseh, how would you pasken, like the Yesh Machmirim or not like the Yesh Machmirim? In klali hapsak you pasken like the stam. But since he brings this chelek of the Magen Avraham...

He had to pasken the yesh machmirim, because this Magen Avraham is the v'yesh. Yesh machmirim lo plug always, but not by chay legamri. Chay legamri is not negei anymore. Once you don't hold of this thing, chay legamri is bichlal not in the story. If you don't hold this yesh machmirim, is chay legamri a story? True, right? Unless you say that's why he divided. He doesn't want to pasken like the yesh machmirim, but he held this is true anyway. Huh? You have to think about it. Look at the Magen Avraham.