Pesach Kadeish: The Four Cups, Kiddush Al Hakos, and Shomea K’oneh

Transcript

You shouldn't give them less than four kosos. That's a simple question. If you're giving a guy four kosos, what happens to his wife and children? Who said Mishnah is only talking about single people? It's talking about everybody. How can it be, lo yifchos lo me'arba kosos? Let's make a cheshbon. ... Everybody. ... Put it away, put it away. This you'll have plenty of. ... Why does Tosafos say the word katzat? Pashut, you know why? Because the diyuk is not such a strong diyuk. You know why? You could come and say, lo yifchos lo me'arba kosos, v'chol echad v'echad. How do you know it means lo yifchos, period? You know, there's no more than four. No more than four for every person. Good? You're giving forty cups. I mean, who said it's so meduyak in the lashon of the Mishnah that you don't give the children? It's not muchrach. Therefore he says only katzat, only kat mashma. You see, mitoch halashon mashma katzat, she'ein nosnin livnei beiso ki im l'atzman. So then what's the diyuk then? I don't think the diyuk is on the lashon of the four kosos. The diyuk is, lo yifchosu lo me'arba kosos. We don't discuss the children. No. In other words, right, the law. The diyuk is not on the arba kosos. That's why Tosafos says l'chatchilah it's only mashma katzat, because maybe we'll give to the children also. Besides the diuk of loi, mashma loi v'loi l'banav kilu. That's the diuk of Tosafos. In other words, the diuk of Tosafos is when it says loi, he doesn't discuss the children. And the reason why it's only ktzas is because aba kasav, maybe we can give more than aba kasav. Aba kasav for him, but for the children, we'll give more. You know what I'm saying? All tries things like this. First of all, what's the diuk of Tosafos? So pashut, every person who reads the Tosafos makes the diuk, four kasos, mashma four, nothing else. Truth is, it's not a diuk. You know why? Because it could be four for him, but then for the children, give more. Huh? Whatever, I mean, well, two nights, depends on the night. What do you mean? Two nights, two nights. Okay, no. Each night, depending on the situation. Whatever, I'm telling you, whatever. Yeah, you hear? So again, the question is, why does Tosafos only say ktzas, and what is the diuk of Tosafos? The diuk of Tosafos is mashma that you give four and no more. So then why does it only say mashma ktzas? The teretz is because who said four? Maybe four for him, and for the kids more. So then what was the diuk of Tosafos in the first place? Because there's only two scases, loi. Vayivchesu lo. What about the children? We should have discussed, hayu tzrichim ladun vledaber al hayeladim. You understood this? Yeah, you hear clearly? Why? Again, the only reason why it's not a complete diuk is because who said four? Maybe four means for him four, but for the children more. That's the answer. Well, that's four means for each one. For each one. But then what is Tosafos diuk in the first place? Why do we discuss loi? Vayivchesu lo. Vayivchesu. What's a loi? Vayivchesu me'arba kosos, what's a loi? That's right. That was the shakla v'tarya of Tosafos. Loi, why? Because we're discussing him. Why are we discussing only him? Loi v'loi l'banav, that we're not discussing the children. Okay, says Tosafos. V'hu motzi es kulam b'shelo. And he will be motzi everybody with his. How can he be motzi someone? U'smaro, says Tosfos. Where do I get this from? I think it's a sevara, says Tosfos. Why? D'maishna ha b'kois is mikiddush d'chol hashanah, sheechad motzi es kulam. Why should it be different than Kiddush? So shaila in Tosfos. The question is going to be, what's the shaychus to Kiddush? What are you talking about Kiddush? By Kiddush, the pshat is you have to say Kiddush al hakos. Mashenkein over here, the pshat is you have to drink arba kosos. Can I be motzi you with a maaseh? Can I say that I ate and you ate? That a person can eat, you know, a person can eat and say, you know what, you ate matzah for me. I think it's in siman lamed ches in the early simanim. He says, ha'kan yehei shlichus on tefillin? He says, no, it's b'gufei. It means something that you have to physically do can't be shlichus, right? So Tosfos. So Tosfos says, u'smaro, what's the sevara? It should be no different than Kiddush. So the first question we have to ask is, what kind of—

As far as this for Kiddush, l'cheira by Kiddush of Shabbos, Kiddush has to be ne'emar al hakos. Mashenkein over here, there's a din, שתי הכוס. You have to drink out of a kos. That's question number one. Question number two is, Tosafos turns around here and says, and maybe by Kiddush ... everybody has to make his own Kiddush too. Tosafos says like this: Who said? Who said maybe ... maybe Kiddush also צריך needs what? Echad v'echad. Look at Tosafos lashon. ומיהו, גם בקידוש שמעו, הוי לכל אחד כוס. Maybe by Kiddush ... every person had a kos. Now what does he mean? I think what he means to say is like this. I mean, they will ask for a kasha. L'cheira, what do you mean? Tosafos knows the metzius. I mean, either people make Kiddush by themselves, or people had everybody have a kos. Each one had his own kos. I mean, what does Tosafos say? Tosafos says, I don't know what I do in my own house? What's מיהו יש לומר? I mean, obviously the Tosafos doesn't know what he did in his own house. Maybe there are two types. He doesn't know what's the מיהו יש לומר. The pashut pshat in Tosafos, if you read it carefully, you'll see I'm right. He's not talking about all Kiddush all year round. He's talking about Kiddush on the night of Pesach. מיהו, למעשה we could come and say that the first cup of Kiddush, that cup everybody has his own kos, like we do. There's no raya anymore that Kiddush. What Tosafos wanted to say is, there's no difference between the three and the first cup. That's what Tosafos means. No. What do you mean to say, כל השנה, meaning what's the gezeh of Kiddush of כל השנה? He's saying it should be no different than Kiddush of כל השנה, which should be no different. The first Kiddush, the first cup. That's what he means, Kiddush. Tosafos means the Kiddush of the night of Pesach should be no different than the rest of Kiddush. מיהו יש לומר that they taka had a kos the night of Pesach, each one of them. That's the question about the other three. That's the shaila of Tosafos. How do we look at the other three? Says Tosfos, look at the Kiddush. Pshat, if the Kiddush doesn't need, maybe this doesn't need. He's not referring to Kiddush, stam Kiddush in the house is what we make Kiddush. It's a Tosfos would know if they had what they... Miu, they had a cup. What does that mean, miu they had a cup? What does that mean? You don't know what people do. Do they make Kiddush? Does everybody make Kiddush? Everybody doesn't make Kiddush. You know the Yekkes have a minhag that every person makes Kiddush. A lot of people have such a minhag, every person makes Kiddush. I see them, every person makes Kiddush. A lot of people have a minhag like this. We have a minhag, we make only for the family, especially in Bucharian, only the papa makes Kiddush, right? No, I know, but ... itch chatan makes for his own family. That's only because they're making ... that's the ... Each one wants to be, you know, I make Kiddush for my family. The shaila was, should each person literally make Kiddush? And where do they come? They point out this Tosfos. There's no ... in this Tosfos. Tosfos is not talking about all year round. Tosfos is talking about the night of Pesach. Pesach. Ah, and the Ra'avad, he brings back a Pesach. Yeah. ... Gabi Chazya, lahu saba, d'gachin v'shasi. Oh, there's a story in the Gemara later that the person didn't know when Kiddush was supposed to end. The Gemara says he didn't know, a certain tanna went to a certain place, I think maybe it was Rav or something, one of the Tannaim, he didn't remember when it was supposed to end. So he started saying Kiddush, and he was looking around, he was very smart. He wanted to see. All of a sudden he set up the bracha, and an old man bent down to drink. Ah, he knew Kiddush was over. Yeah, because he didn't know when the Kiddush, he didn't know how to make the Kiddush, so that's why. So, ahu saba, there was an old man, the gochin, he bowed down and he drank. So he chapped that was. So למעשה, what's Tosafos bringing a raya from? From Kiddush, no? From regular Kiddush. Brings a raya from regular Kiddush. ... It's regular Kiddush. I don't understand this. I don't understand this from Tosafos. Oh, so come, so it means the ... that they use to have Kiddush in front of him. The only thing is, I see from ... oh, no, it's Kiddush. The problem, I'll tell you what my problem is. You still have a raya, you have to make the Kiddush, you have to drink from the Kiddush. Who made the Kiddush? The Tanna made the Kiddush. Yeah, but what do you see? That you don't have to make Kiddush by yourself. You have to drink maybe from your own kos. That's all you see. He tried to each guy had his own kos. But Kiddush, each guy had his own kos, because you see that he was making Kiddush. You know, let's learn the Gemara, Kuf vav, very famous Gemara.

First he wants to say you might not need, because it's another kiddush, and then he wants to say maybe by kiddush as well. Yeah. Oh, so let's see. So, many years ago, huh? Okay. Amar Rabbi Yehuda, bari pri hagafen. In the morning, what's the kiddush in the morning? It's just a borei pri hagafen. Rav Ashi ikla l'mechuza. Rav Ashi went to Mechuza. Amar lei, likdish lan mar kiddusha rabba. That's what I like to call kiddusha rabba. You know why it's called today? Because it's a very small kiddush. All you have to do is make a borei pri hagafen. Havu lei. So they gave it to him. Savar, mai neihu kiddusha rabba? Well, he never heard the word kiddusha rabba. It may sound very scary. Big, ooh, this big kiddush. He didn't know what it was. He only knew a borei pri hagafen. Amar, michti, kola bracha borei pri hagafen. First of all, one thing for sure: a borei pri hagafen I definitely have to make. Okay, I'll start with the borei pri hagafen, I'll see. It's like a Gemara. You have no idea how I enjoy this Gemara. He gave him a kibud, but he didn't know what to do. He didn't know kiddusha rabba. He only knew you make a borei pri hagafen. He didn't know what you're supposed to make. He never heard of kiddusha rabba. So what did he do? He said like this, listen. And it's interesting, why didn't he ask? You see from here there was a kavod haTorah, maybe. I don't know. He wasn't allowed to ask, maybe. No, I'm very sure that he's... I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I gotta say, could be halacha, a talmid's not allowed to ask maybe. I don't know. Because he made a cheshbon, not to ask. Everyone starts with a borei pri hagafen. I'll start with borei pri hagafen, and I'll see. Hashem will help me from there. So he makes the borei pri hagafen. ... So what was happening? Some old man drank the wine he made the very first. Ah, this must be the kiddush. Kari anashi chachamei b'reisha. Call out a song if you are very smart. Says Tosfos, you see from here that every person had a cup in front of him. It's a very, very nice vort from Brisker Rav. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful vort. What's pshat in the pshat? If you learn l'maaseh that kiddush, we don't make kiddush by ourselves, right? Either the Gemara brings a very nice raya. Tosfos brings a beautiful raya, the gachin v'lachush, and the teretz could be is very pashut. Brisker Rav was makpid that by Friday night, let's say I make kiddush, do you have to drink from the kos? The din teima. And what's the din teima? Anybody. Teima is anybody. Somebody has to drink from the kos. Technically, I'm not mechuyav to drink. Not every person is mechuyav to drink. By Borei Pri Hagafen, Brisker Rav held in the morning, everybody is mechuyav to drink. Why? Because that's the whole kiddush. What is the kiddush then? Friday night, the kiddush is, זָכוֹר... it's a kiddush. It's a bracha, it's a kiddush. So what is the kiddush of Friday night, of Shabbos morning? It's just to drink the wine b'chilas seudah. That's the whole kiddush. The whole kiddush is just to start the seudah Shabbos b'ofen chatzudah. So that's the whole pshat, the bifin ahead. Big machloikes Rishonim Acharonim is: is Kiddush a birchas hamitzvos or is Kiddush a birchas hanehenin? So he learned that Kiddush is more birchas hanehenin Shabbos morning. Friday night it's a birchas hamitzvah; Shabbos morning it's a birchas hanehenin. But meila, what happens? Meila, you have to drink—what? Comes along the Brisker Rav's son, the Beryl, and he says to the Papa, This is true that each guy should have to drink a revi'is. If it's דין Kiddush is, you need a revi'is, and the whole Kiddush is the yayin that you drink, so each guy has to drink a revi'is. You know what the Brisker Rav answered him? Don't be such a big mach... Revi'is Shabbos morning. Ever since the son asked him the kasha, there's no raya anymore to the night. Could be garchin halachos is by day because the pshat is each guy has to drink. This is stam, I'm pointing out. First we're talking about raya, then we're talking about regel. Then I'm pointing out to you, I l'maaseh, Tosafos brings a beautiful raya that each guy had his own kos, so how can we not make our own kos? Teretz is, it's talking about kiddush Rabbah there, talking about Shabbos morning. Stam, we're two different things. We're asking on Tosafos, and then we're asking l'maaseh if it's true that you don't drink l'maaseh, what do you do with Tosafos' raya? I'm telling you, Tosafos' raya is because it's kiddush Rabbah. Kiddush Rabbah is a different halacha. You know what this is megaleh also? By Seder Kiddushin, you make a borei pri...

The mesader kiddushin makes two brachot. What? Yeah, but he makes a borei pri hagafen, right? He doesn't drink. Mesader kiddushin doesn't drink. I make a borei pri hagafen and you drink. If you don't drink, repeat. Yeah, but I don't drink at all. I don't drink. No, mesader kiddushin doesn't drink at all. This is very famous. In Europe they spoke a lot about this, and I told you this. If you learn to birchas hamitzvos and a chanan, it's not a problem. But if you learn to birchas הנהנין, you have to drink. So they say over there, Reb Chaim was very makpid, used to spill from the cup on his hands. And then he would lick it off his hand like this, shelo yehei bracha levatalah. Uv'safek, you should be yotzei, it shouldn't be a bracha levatalah, because he was choshesh maybe it's a birchas hanehenin. A lot of times you have a borei pri hagafen, it's just there, like by Kiddush, like I explained to you by Kiddush. Friday night's Kiddush is a birchas hamitzvos. You have to make Kiddush al hakos, so you do it with a borei pri hagafen. And a child tracks. So according to this, it's not good. You see from the Gemara, the Gemara says, the gachin v'lachash. Every person had to drink. It wasn't good enough for one person to drink. Who can give me a pashut teretz? Who can give me a pashut teretz to the kashya of the Gemara, that the whole Gemara is not a kashya in the first place? This guy had a kos before. Who said? No, we'll make a cheshbon. When you're sitting at one table, when you're sitting at one table with your family, right? So why do they have a safek if it's birkas hanehenin or if it's birchas hamitzvos? That's not a kashya. He didn't know what they wanted him to say. He didn't know what they wanted. It's not a kashya. He thought they wanted him to say more, so he started off like this and he started, and he drank. No, but if you see that everybody has a cup, so then it's only birkas hanehenin. Who said? Maybe he has to say something else. Maybe he has to say something else. It's not a kashya. Comes along here, comes along Taisvis, brings a raya from this. I don't think it's such a big raya. You ever see when a person makes a kiddush Shabbos morning, right? Each guy stands there with his schnapps and his kichel, right? You ever see, right? And his cake, whatever he's holding, right? His zonos. Why is he drinking the schnapps? He's drinking the schnapps because he wants to be yotzei kiddush, or he's drinking the schnapps because he wants to drink, no? Who said the kos is there for kiddush reasons? Maybe each guy had his own drinking. I mean, everybody prepared a cup of wine for themselves. Yeah. And who says it was a full cup of wine? I don't see what Taisvis wants בכלל. How do you know it was a full cup and each guy had his own cup? They drank wine. What's the beer? They were sitting at kiddush and they were drinking wine. Who? The kiddush. Here was the kiddush, and each guy was drinking from his own cup. I don't see Taisvis. No, yeah, I'm saying technically it could have been a Pepsi, I don't know, whatever was in the cup. Yeah, but what do you want from the guy? The guy, he drank. What do you want from him? I don't understand Taisvis's question. Simple, because it's not a pashut question. Taisvis brings a raya that each guy had his own kos for kiddush. Each guy was standing prepared. You know, you ever buy a kiddush? Mechinim it, chas v'shalom, if you touch it, this guy is... He's standing with his... He's waiting for the guy to drink kiddush. Oh, there's nothing to do with kiddush. This is why he's drinking, he's drinking because he's drinking his drink, his schnapps. I don't understand Taisvis. I don't get Taisvis. Each guy had a kos in front of him. Who said he had a... Who says it was a kos? Maybe it was a little schnapps cup. I mean, how does Tyson know what was there? You want to tell me? I'm matznia on Tyson. I'm poshut matznia on Tyson. Tell me, you think they drank soda in those days? They drank wine in those days. So what's the kashya? Because it was a bar Piga. Obviously, I made the bar Piga, and he drank. He drank. That's Chazal. Chayei Eliyahu. We learn from a pasuk, Chayei Eliyahu. It's drash of a Chacham on a pasuk. No, no, no, Zechrei al ha-yayin. It's a davar chashuv. Wine is chashuv, zechrei al ha-yayin. Pashut kashya. This guy bent down to drink. He was drinking his drink. What do you want from the guy? But how do you know? I don't care about what is Tyson saying already.

Okay, so the Reisha, the first part is like this. Does each guy have four kosos? So we spoke about the diyuk from the Mishnah: lo, not lo, do we give him or we give? Okay, that's Tosafos. It says, Tosafos is a sevara. What's the sevara? The sevara is it should be no different than what? Than Kiddush. So first of all, pointing out, what does it mean by Kiddush? Kiddush of that night. When you make Kiddush that night, does every guy have his own kos? No. So who says everybody? Maybe just like I make Kiddush and I drink and I'm motzi everybody, so too, arba kosos, I drink and I'm motzi everybody. That's what Tosafos wants to prove, maybe not. No, Tosafos wants to say, so maybe it's no different than the other kosos. That's the question that we're asking. Maybe it is different. Our question is maybe a daled kosos is different, that maybe Pesach night is different. Right, is Kiddush, right? That's the question. Tosafos says not that way. Tosafos, let's prove from Kiddush. That's the question that we're asking. The hakrafah is what we're asking. How does Tosafos know from Kiddush? Kiddush is a different halacha. What do you want from Kiddush? Also you have to drink by Kiddush. That's the question. Okay, yes? Are you with me? Are you with me today? You'll see why I don't want to bunch them together, because the truth is they have to be bunched together. If you understand it better this way, ask it this way. Maybe one and three is different. Okay. Comes along Tosafos, you hear? And it says like this: Ve'oid, de'amar b'Gemara, hiskinam le'batel lebei... If let's say he gives from the daled kosos... These children, it's good. V'hu d'shatsa ruba d'kas. As long as he drank רוב of the kos. Mashma, d'hem yatzu b'shmiah. It's mashma that they were yotzei with the shmiah. Why? D'b'gina ruba d'kas. In order to be yotzei, you would have to have a whole rov of a kos. They don't have rov of a kos; you have it. So then who made the kiddush and who made the hagadah, whatever it was, or the birchas hamazon? You did it. You can't just drink a little bit and say, Oh, I have kiddush. So who's you being yotzei with, obviously? Obviously being yotzei with what? With the baal habayis. V'od, ... I skipped something. Who? I know. Oh, give Mr. Line. V'od. V'od, d'mashma l'chatchilah, regular ... And also it says hiskah. Hiskah means if he did do it. What do you mean, if? Do you have to do it or you don't have to do it? It's mashma they didn't even give him a rule. It's mashma from the Gemara, hiskah, if he did do this, mashma not mechuyav to do it. If. Mashma regulars that you don't even give him to drink. Here, arba kosos, I make it and they don't even make it at all. So that's Tosafos? No. ... It's talking about a case where they take out their own, and you still give them from yours. They have their own, and you're still giving them from yours. ... hiskah ... on their beisai. It's like I gave my family as long as I have arba kosos. The chiddush is not the children anymore. The chiddush now is me. Tosafos understood the chiddush is the children. Kovach b'lo, the children have their own kais. So what's the chiddush? Meaning, as long as I drank rev kais, it's good enough. Hiskamehem is a chiddush that even though I drank rev kais. Okay. Hagah min Shabbos is very difficult. Why does he just say he drank rev kais? What do you have to give a story for? Bislay, it's the chiddush to the children. He's saying hiskamem, buttenei beisai. Then you learn that the chiddush is that you could drink only rev kais and say rev kais. All right. No, they have their own kais of kiddush. That's Tais's chiddush. They have their own kais. Okay. So then Tais says like this: Idami b'bonav uvnei beisoi ktanim. It's talking about that they're very small children, shelo yagiau l'chinuch. They're not הגיעו לחינוך, and since they're not הגיעו לחינוך, therefore they taka don't need wine, like we'll see in the Gemara. Ay, what about his wife? It says, bonav uvnei beisoi. No. Tais says, ay, what about the wife? It says, Tais, v'ein ishto bichlal. Ishto is not included, right? If you take a look, ayin Brachos kaf daled, Tais dibur hamaschil matani. Let's see over here, Rabbi Akiva Eiger, anyone. What's that, ein ishto bichlal? That she's included with his shtiyah. That's what means ein ishto bichlal, like by menorah, Chanukah. They don't have to light his own menorah. As long as I light, she's included in my act of lighting. Ein ishto bichlal, okay. So what about the—yeah, the Tais maybe.

No, the ein ishto bichlal, she's not included. What do you mean she's not included? In this hiskabel ... she's not included. I try, she does it to the husband sometimes. No, but she's yotzei with the husband. What do you mean? It's so different. I mean, menoros, so what? Menorah, what do you mean? She paters, so we said ... Okay. U'mihu, b'Gemara mashma tzarich kol echad arba kosos. So Tosfos is saying maybe, again, you see this whole Tosfos is back and forth: yes, maybe, maybe not, maybe yes. That's this Tosfos. The question is, what was the maybe yes and what was the maybe not? What's the kiddush yes and what's the kiddush not? I mean, he doesn't explain why. He just goes back and forth, ping-ponging: yes, no, yes, no, maybe yes, maybe no. But he never explains the why. U'mihu, b'Gemara mashma tzarich kol echad arba kosos. The ma'aseh mashma in the Gemara that each one does need arba kosos. D'tani: hakol chayavin b'arba kosos, echad nashim v'echad tinokos. Ah, tinok? Amar רבי יהודה, matel s'tinok is b'yayin. רבי יהודה says, what does a child have from drinking wine? He has nothing from it. Mashma, k'tana kama tzarich arba kosos af l'tinokes. You see, according to the Tana Kama, he does need his own kos, and he can't be motzi with what yotzei with his father. Yesh lדחות, says Tosfos, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. When it says hakol chayavin b'arba kosos, it doesn't mean arba kosos. You know what it means? It means something else. Arba kosos, says Tosfos, lishmoa birchas arba kosos ka'amar. He's mechuyav to hear from the father the bracha of the arba kosos. Okay, so what was the question of Rabbi Yehuda then? Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. U'mishum chinuch, and the chiyuv would be because of chinuch. Kids, it says, Taisis, v'nir'eh l'hachmir, v'nir'eh l'hachmir, ul'hatzter b'kol echad, that even the children, everybody needs a machmir, and somebody who is already machmir, you see it's not the chiyuv chiyuv, but a machmir. Tzarich l'hizaher shelo yehei kosev pagum. It shouldn't be a kos pagum. It shouldn't be, for the children, you shouldn't come and give them a kos pagum. דאמרי בגמרא, טמאי. If you taste the pagum, you ruin the kos. ... If you hold you're mechuyiv, then of course you can't have טבל coming pagum. You know, there's a very famous Ritva. People don't know this. When you give a child a chinuch set for a lulav and an esrog, could be pasul l'karka, that's kosher. You need to know that you can't give him a lemon and say, Oh, it's chinuch. No, it's pasul. It's not chinuch. The Ritva says it has to be the mitzvah that's mechanech chinuch. You can't give him a pasul. It's a chiyuv now of chinuch. What do you mean, you can't give him a pasul? It's the famous Rishonim, the famous open Rishonim. People think, and people don't know this, people give a pasul lulav to a child. You don't give a pasul lulav to a child. Why not? Because he's mechuyiv, mitam chinuch now. Whatever it is, but you're mechuyiv to do the mitzvah, mitam chinuch. Whatever it is, but you have to do the mitzvah. Whatever it is. Okay, both. The father, the father. The father, the father. The son, the son. Whatever it is, but it's... You're missing the point. If let's say the father is mechuyiv and the child can be mechanech him, right? But I have to mechanech him with the real thing. That doesn't make a difference. You see, that's the whole point. Rishonim don't learn like that. Rishonim, anashim to'im b'zeh. People say, Oh, you're learning the lesson anyway. It doesn't make a difference. But now he's a chuyiv in the mitzvah. We taught chinuch. They have to do the mitzvah. You can't do a pasul mitzvah. People don't know this. It's a famous response, very famous, with this mitzvah now. Of course. You know, you want to know something? It's a very big lesson in chinuch. People don't know this. You can't fool a child. I didn't say you have to buy him clothes, but not necessary. You're adding. That's some bar patur chumras, you know. They buy the child the mehudardik esrog, you know. But it has to be kosher. What's pshat Tosafos here? If you're machmir, if you hold you have to be machmir, make sure it's not a kosher pasul. What's the chiddush? If it's a kosher pasul, you didn't have anything. Okay, so let's chazer quickly the question, and then I'll tell you over the Brisker Rav. Question Tosafos says, yet children not...

Okay, so we spoke about the ktzas, not ktzas, mashma. Okay, good. So Tosafos says it's a svara. What's a svara? The maishna, what? Yes, I think then it becomes each guy is called loi. Each guy comes with his own thing. Yeah, no, that's simple. Each kid comes give me, and then, I mean, if he's 17, he's not a kid anymore. He's 13, he's not a child anymore. So then he becomes loi. He comes to collect. Each child says, listen, that's called loi. That's for me, each guy. Why does Tosafos discuss the difference between 13... Okay, so let's hear. Let's hear. Okay, so again, so the first thing I want to tell you is, we spoke good. We spoke good about the diyuk in the Tosafos. Lo, aba ketzos, the sevaros are not clear in the Tosafos. Why? The Tosafos on one hand says it's domeh to kiddush, and then he himself turns around and says maybe by kiddush, both of you would need. I mean, how did that change? Maybe it's domeh to kiddush, and then Tosafos, maybe kiddush itself. Then Tosafos comes along and says that we're talking about the ketanim, you hear? And then he says, so then what's the pshat? Chayavim lishmoa. What do you mean lishmoa? What does that mean? Aba ketzos, this lishmoa birchas... what does that mean? What was the hava amina? If you're mechuyav in arba kosos, the chiyuv would be lishmoa birchas arba kosos. But you would have to hear the Borei Pri Hagafen and Birchas Hamazon. I mean, what is he talking about? At the end, Tosafos says even if you're machmir, you have to do it, you should make sure it shouldn't be a kos pagum. What is that all about? I mean, if you have to do it, then you have to do it. The guy's gonna come and say, you know what? You're mechuyav in arba kosos? Don't do it by drinking four cups of Pepsi Cola. I mean, what was the hava amina? You gotta do what you gotta do. Kos pagum is not a kos. So I want to tell you over, there's a gevaldige Brisker Rav over here, very important Brisker Rav. Brisker Rav says like this. Oh. Kosos eilu mi'ayin. Yeah. Oh. Okay, you know what, we'll start from here maybe. Says the Brisker Rav, it's muchach that there's two parts to arba kosos. He brings our Tosafos, and he brings the Tosafos, and he says like this: וכבר שמעתי מאמור הגאון זצל שטעם על דברי התוספות, דמה ענין ארבע כוסות לקידוש כל השנה? What's the connection? Which is the kasha I asked. How could Tosafos compare kiddush by arba kosos? Arba kosos you have to drink. Arba kosos you have to drink. Mashenkein over here, the mitzvah is to make kiddush al hakos, and this you have to drink the cup is only a special halacha, bizayon for the cup of kiddush. What else is it? Arba kosos is kiddush, and hagadah, and the birchas hamazon, and the Hallel. I'm saying that's the kasha. Drinking, to drink it derech cheirus. Says like this, beautiful vort. He says like, The haskamas mitzvah bracha, and that's ikar kiddush. U'vezeh avedinu l'shamea ka'ina, aval b'koses d'ikar zeh shtiyah. V'hichiach mizeh d'sfira l'haTosafos, says Reb Chaim, you see from here, d'gam b'arba kosos ein ikar mitzvah b'shtiyas hakosos, rak b'habracha shel hakos. You see from Tosafos, you must say that arba kosos is just like what? Just like kiddush. V'havi mamash dugmas kiddush b'chol hashanah, b'chol kos shel bracha, akan baruch. V'chein hu muchrach gam midivrei haGra. Says the Brisker Rav, the words of my father, Reb Chaim, are muchrach from the Gra in Shulchan Aruch, siman yud-reish ayin aleph, se'if yud-daled: Hadin sham, puktos harasha l'Tosafos b'kos shel kiddush.

If two people drink, could be mitztaref l'ma'loy lugmav. U'mei'gra mikar l'shitsa rosh, v'ein shtiyas yeshnaim mitztarefes l'hadar mina b'psachim, daf kuf ches, v'hu d'asti ruba d'kasa. Af al gav d'minei beisei shasa shaar. V'yesh omrim, right, tzrich lihu v'koi kulam yachad. Harei mevuar midivrei ha'Gra, d'laman d'leis lei shtiyas shtayim mitztarefes, gam ba'koses din kein. If you hold that shtiyas shtayim is not mitztaref by kiddush, where's the raya from Pesach night? By Pesach night you have to drink. The Teretz is, you don't have to drink. You don't have to drink. Shtiyas shtayim mitztarefes. Oh. No, he says that obviously you see Tosafos, you see the Gra learns this way also. What? By what? By the Arba Kosos? Okay, so go to the Brisker Rav, go to the shiur, that's a whole long Brisker Rav. I want to tell you—what? I'm sorry, what's your kasha? Okay, I'm going to answer Tosafos. First of all, slowly. So firstly you see one yesod from here, that by shtiyas Arba Kosos there's a halacha of derech cheirus, there's a halacha of derech cheirus, meaning that hagam, technically I would have thought that you have to drink the eser kose, kamashmalan that as long as you have the bracha al hakos it's good enough. The Brisker Rav had a very big chumra because of this, and the Haggadah of the Brisker Rav is brought down that he used to hold the cup the entire Haggadah. Why? Because the same way kiddush is al hakos, this is not ... al hakos. The way the berachah ... it's not the ... al hakos. It's the bracha al hakos. So the truth is, we taka do this. I don't know if you know, before you make Asher Galanu, Asher Galanu, when we make the bracha itself, we taka pick up the kos. We pick up the kos. The pshat is, technically we were supposed to do the whole Haggadah, but the Brisker Rav used to hold the whole Haggadah. I mean, takes the Brisker to do it. He used to hold the whole Haggadah, like this. He would hold the kos. Then he had another chumrah. Whenever he would spill, let's say Chadash, Bachav, right, the makos, he wouldn't spill from the kos. He would take a separate kos. Why? Because since he wants that the yayin, the ... should be nemer al hakos, so he didn't want to take away from that kos and then add on extra later. Why? Because that extra wasn't nemer al hakos. The whole Haggadah wasn't nemer al hakos anymore. So it's a ... Yes, so pashut you have to learn al hakos. It's not the actual wine, but that was his chumrah. His chumrah was that since it's not pshat that you have to drink the arba kosos, the pshat is the Haggadah has to be nemer al hakos, so maybe he didn't want that this wine that he's in, didn't have Haggadah on it. Most of the Haggadah wasn't said on it. So he would spill from a different cup. He would spill. Why? Because it is wine. It has a din of wine al hakos. Din of al hakos. Okay. Listen, we can't do it. We're not holding by it. No, it's good enough. Yeah? Sure, it's good enough. Let's say if I make kiddush. Yeah, because you want to take a bite tefillah, if you lean on something, it's not called amidah. If you want to know if this is not called ... Yeah, I understand, but could you lean your hand on the ...? Yeah, why not? Again, the pshat in the Tosafos is beautiful. Now let's talk about this. Taisis comes along here and says like this: maybe, just like by Kiddush, one person has Kiddush and the rest drink, says Reb Chaim, what's the pshat in that? Because maybe there's no din of drinking by daled kosos. So now what does Taisis turn around and say? Maybe by Kiddush, once the havdalah now, that by Kiddush, that each guy had his own kos. What's the pshat in that? I'll tell you a me'oiredike vort. Shomea k'oneh. How does shomea k'oneh work? There's a machlokes in the poskim how shomea k'oneh works. Either shomea k'oneh is the pshat, the words are misyaches to me, or me and you become like the same person. Shomea k'oneh means that the dibur, the words become my words, like I actually spoke. The question is, what's that halacha? Is that halacha is that you can say it for me, or you can do it and I'm yotzei with you? Could either way. So the question by Megillah, what's the pshat?

It's like with USA, or it's like you and me are saying the same thing. You don't need that. You don't have ... because it's just since you read it mitoch haksav, so I have a reading mitoch haksav, because I'm him. That's how the chazanist was ... I'll explain to you what I mean. Ready? I'll explain to you what I mean. There's a very famous Beis Halevi that speaks about an interesting halacha. Interesting halacha. A kohen who has to make birchas kohanim, halacha is he shouldn't daven for the amud. Why shouldn't he daven for the amud? Because shema yitbalbel and he won't be able to be chozer to the tefillah, from the birchas kohanim to the tefillah, from the birchas kohanim to the tefillah. Today we pasken, since we have siddurim anyway, so it's no problem. There's no such problem. Comes along the Beis Halevi and asks a simple question: You're about tefillah, you're a kohen, you want to daven. Halacha is better not to daven. You know what? You daven and send this other guy to be a shliach. Why? No, tell the other kohen, Kohen, you're going up anyway. Be my shliach to make birchas kohanim to the other people. Why can't I send a shliach? That's the ... No, you're ... That's a ... Can I come and daven and not say birchas kohanim and tell him to say for me? Oh, ... That's the ... That's the ... It's in the Beis Halevi, back in the ... What's the maaseh? It's a maaseh. By kiddush, I make kiddush twice. When I'm being motzi you in kiddush, I say it twice: ... ... I say it once and I'm yotzei, me and you together. Like I say, ... me and you are yotzei with it. Maybe it's Beis Halevi. Kiddush is the same thing. Here's the same thing, amirah. You have to say the kiddush. Amirah is you have to say the kiddush. So there's a very famous Beis Halevi. Famous, famous Beis Halevi. Says the Beis Halevi, ah... You know why? Good, everybody do it, do it. Good. I'm saying, but I'm telling you, in a case where a guy has no choice, a guy is down for the amud. Halachically, a kohen should not daven for the amud. Says the Beis Halevi, why not? Says the Shliach, finished, that's all, what's the big deal? That's been hagging custom. You said it for me. Why not? The pasuk says clearly I have to make kiddush. Can I send somebody else to do it? The pasuk says I have to read the Megillah. Can I send someone else to do it for me? Very good, speaking lomdus, yeah. Comes along the Beis Halevi, a little bit different. Comes along the Beis Halevi, yeah, and says the Beis Halevi that you know what the answer is? Very pashut. Since there's a din of kol rom, kol rom, right, halacha that the kohen has to say in a loud voice, that you won't have the shlichus. The words you'll have with the kol rom, you won't have. Everybody, I remember in Brisk, used to... kol rom. He brings up the kol rom. Brisk. This I was zoche to hear in Brisk. They say that the Beis Halevi wasn't written properly. That's not what he meant. He didn't mean kol rom and you can't give over kol rom. Emor lahem. It's a special halacha that it's not just I have to say it. I have to say it me to you. Someone else cannot hear it from me, even though I'm hearing it. I said it, but I never said it to you because I never said it. You said it through here. Think about it. Think about it. I said it. But can you come and say I said it to you? That, that you don't have. This is interesting. This is interesting. Betalei, this is me and someone else. Oh, totally this silently. If you learn the pshat, those words is like my words, then I... But if it's like me and him are the same, if he has the emunah, then I have the emunah. You know where all this conversation I just told you comes from? The Chazon Ish speaks about it in Avot. Says Chazon Ish, that's the...

When you make kiddush, you need kiddush has to be al ha-kos. So if you learn that my words are your words, but I still don't have al ha-kos. But if you learn me, you become the same, so whatever actions you did, you did it al ha-kos, I have al ha-kos too. Because me, because I'm yotzei with you. I'm not yotzei me. Because I'm yotzei with you. You did kiddush, and me and you are shluchim. Shlucho shel adam kemoso. They speak about it, because that speaks to the kohen. No, tefillin is different. Tefillin pshat is it has to be on my גוף. That's the same thing. This is the famous Chazon Ish, and it comes from this type. Again, any psak—this is yeshonos; it has no halacha l'maaseh—any posek knows. Shomea k'oneh. What is shomea k'oneh? There's a machlokes Chazon Ish discussed this at great length, and the ... hen zeh lehafuch. And you want to know something? Hundreds of people before the Chazon Ish speak about it. Hundreds. But the Chazon Ish speaks about it afterwards. Shomea oneh or shomea k'oneh? Shomea means me and you have become shluchim. Means your act is my act; we're one. Or the pshat is shomea k'oneh. I could use your—you're telling me, I could use. I use your words to be yotzei with them. Comes along the Chazon Ish, that's the shakla v'tarya of Tosfos. If you learn shomea k'oneh means that I mean you become one, so then the kos—you did al ha-kos—is good enough for me too. But if the pshat is, Shema koin, I use your words, yeah, but I don't have your maiseh. I don't have your emor lahem. That's what the Beis HaLevi meant. It's very simple. If the pshat is when I say Kiddush and I hear it, it's as if I said the Kiddush. Yeah, but I didn't say it al hakos. It's very nice, it's very nice, but the act of al hakos wasn't there. It's like someone ... for the ... emor lahem. It goes like this: the words could be misyaches to me, but the maisim that were done during these words are not misyaches. Why not? How? Also because if you learn shlichus. If you learn that it's a shliach, that's right. That's what the Chasam wants to know. How do you learn shema koin of Kiddush? Shema koin of Kiddush means you make Kiddush and I'm yotzei with your Kiddush. Or pshat is, me and you are making Kiddush together. We both make Kiddush by you making Kiddush. You're my shliach, you're my ... shlucho shel adam kemoso. My hand is your hand, my words are your words. But ... I understand how it works. Or the pshat is no, shema koin means I could use your Kiddush to be yotzei, yeah, but not al hakos. It's a very nice Kiddush, beautiful. He's saying it's good of you, but you're not doing my thing. But you're not doing it al hakos. You said those words. It's very nice. You said ... that's right. That's right. But that's right. ... Simcha always says it good. Amen means I agree, I have those words, but I don't have the maisim of those words. It's very good. You said ... You said all that. ... You said it, yeah, but you didn't say al hakos. Says Tosafos, you need a kos for what? Kol echad v'echad. You need each guy to have a kos, kol echad v'echad. Because you need maiseh ... That's what Tosafos is trying to prove. ... This is Tosafos's ... by Kiddush. Tosafos starts off saying like this: maybe I have a kois like Kiddush. And then Tosafos turns around and says maybe even by Kiddush you need al hakois. So his safek is the safek of shemeia kois. How does it work in hilchos shemeia kois? Problem with this is, if you really want to be an emes, it's really comes out that Tosafos is talking about two different sugyas. First Tosafos wants to know in Hilchos daled kosos that there's no din shtiyah, but there's a din bracha. And then first Tosafos turns around and says, and maybe there's a safek by Kiddush, let it be a separate Tosafos. According to this it's two different sugyas. You want to know maybe is kiddush shtiyah takas or amiras hakiddush al hakois, and then you have a safek by Kiddush now in Hilchos Kiddush, shemeia koino. Tosafos is not mashma like that. Tosafos is mashma that it's one shakla v'tarya.

Part of the Chazon Ish learns, it comes out that the question is always like this: Kiddush — I'm sorry, daled kosos. Daled kosos is a question: do I have to drink, or the bracha is good enough? And then I turn around and I have a safek by Kiddush, a separate sugya. How does shemea koneh work by Kiddush? So there's already the original question. I believe that that's not pashut. I would have learned Tosafos differently. You know how I would think pshat in Tosafos is? Like this. I'm saying it's very difficult to learn that Kiddush is a new sugya of shomea koneh. I think what Tosafos is saying is like this. The din of shtiyah — if you look at the Avnei Nezer, I don't remember why, but I think the Avnei Nezer says the same yesod about this shaylah. So the shaylah: how much you have to drink. Kiddush is one din shtiyah and the daled kosos is different din shtiyah. So the Avnei Nezer asks for a kashya. Compared to Kiddush, how can there be different halachos? One is rov kos and one is melo lugmav. I think that's Rav Shach. Rav Shach has the question: if it's the same halacha like Kiddush, how could by Kiddush be a din of shtiyah melo lugmav, or you have to drink melo lugmav, mashenkein by daled kosos there's a din of rov kos? If you're learning that it's the same halacha, how can it be different? Yes, so that's a special halacha in how to do the Kiddush. That's already a difference. But the question is in the Kiddush itself. If you're comparing it, saying it's the same halacha, why is this a din shtiyah of melo lugmav and this a din shtiyah of rov kos? That's the same as kashya. Rav Shach asks for a kashya. Okay. You know what I think the pashut pshat is? I think the pashut pshat is like this. There's no question that there's a din shtiyah also. There's no question. A guy can't come and say, you know, I don't have to drink the daled kosos, and the Brisker proved it. If let's say I took all the four kosos and I put it together, may yotzei? No. If a guy went and took one kos and made all the brachos — Kiddush and Hallel and everything — would he be yotzei? This is the Brisker Rav. The Brisker Rav speaks about it. Gemara says clearly not yotzei, right? Shasah b'vas achas, you're only yotzei one kos. So you drank the amount of chapter three, right? You drank how much you have to drink, but you didn't have separate kos. There's no question you have to drink four kos. It's out of the question. No question about it. What's the pshat? Pshat like this: what creates daled kosos? That's the halacha of the bracha al hakos. What creates the daled kosos? What makes this into daled kosos? The bracha al hakos makes it into daled kosos. The Hallel on it makes it into a kos of daled kosos. Now there's a special halacha of how to drink the daled kosos. There's a shiur called rov kos. That's the din of the shiur of daled kosos. By kiddush, how much you have to drink of the kos of kiddush, that's מהו. There's no question that the yesod of the din shiur is created from the din of daled kosos. In other words, there's a din daled kosos, and there's a chiyuv to drink daled kosos. So Tosafos begins like this: when we talk about daled kosos, how does it start? Does it start with the bracha, or does it start with the din shiur? It starts with the bracha, and that compares it to what? To kiddush. That's what Tosafos means. Tosafos is saying like this: if it was time to drink, there would be no comparison to kiddush. This is where Rav Chaim says, no, it starts with the halacha of what? Of arba kosos, meaning there's a din bracha to make a bracha, say Hallel, על ד' כוסות. Then the question becomes, says Tosafos, maybe by kiddush, gufa, there's a special halacha that also you have to have a kos. What's the pshat? Meaning, it's not a safek in shema ka'ina now. It's a safek in the bracha, meaning what creates a bracha al hakos? Bracha al hakos is— The ikker is the bracha, and the al hakos like a bracha. What is the special halacha of bracha al hakos now? In other words, in order for it to be a birchas kiddush, you would taka need the bracha, and you would taka need the al hakos. So there would never be a halacha anymore that I could have a yotzei if somebody else is mekadesh. Because it's not enough to just have the bracha al hakos. It has to be a kos shel kiddush now. There's a new halacha called kos shel kiddush.

In other words, it's not a se'if shemei koneh anymore. It's a se'if takkeh what's called birchas kiddush. Just like there's a halacha of birchas al hakos, meaning I have to say the Havdalah on the kos, and now the kos becomes what? A cheftza of daled kosos, and there's halachos: I have to drink those daled kosos. There's now something called kos shel kiddush. Not just the kiddush is al hakos. Meaning, it begins with the bracha. It begins with the bracha. Avada it begins with the bracha. But what's the pshat? It's not just that the bracha has to be on the cup. There's halacha that there has to be kos shel kiddush. There's halacha that you have to have— It's not the kos of kiddush. It's bracha al hakos, but it's not birchas kiddush. Kiddush, Chazal were mesaken that there's a tzurah to kiddush. That's the Tosafos's kashya. That's exactly it. Meaning, now that we already learned zachreihu al hayayin, what's the pshat? All you need is a zachreihu that should be al hayayin, and now there's something called kiddush. Now there's something called kiddush. Huh? It's not going to help you anything on shemei koneh. It doesn't help you shemei koneh because it's not anymore the bracha. The shaylah is, according to Chazal, what is shemei koneh? I'm telling you, even shemei koneh means I have the ma'aseh al hakos. I have that. But that's not enough, because it's not the pshat that you need this al hakos. You need kais kiddush. You need whatever was created out of it. That's right. You need the kais kiddush. You don't have that by Shemeikaina. What you have is maybe that you said the kiddush. You might even have that you said the kiddush on a cup. But l'maaseh, you don't have kiddush. Machlokes, you didn't do kiddush. You said kiddush, but you didn't do kiddush. That's the word. That's what I'm looking for. You said kiddush. You didn't make kiddush. That's what—write these words down. You said kiddush, but you didn't make kiddush. Huh? That's what I'm trying to tell you, because Tosafos starts off like this: I have a kais, maybe I have a kais like kiddush. So Chaim tells me, what do you mean? You have to drink arba kos. You don't have to drink arba kos, right? Obviously not, right? You'll see later in the Mishnah, I'm going to make you copies of it. That's not true. You have to drink it. The Mishnah says clearly two things. So I'm explaining to you like this. Then Tosafos turns around and says, well maybe by kiddush, gufa, you have to drink for one reason, for shemeikaina. So what do you want? So what's two different Tosafos over here? It's two different sugyas. What are you bothering him? It's like you're mixing in two different sugyas. First of all, you want to know that you have to drink kiddush. One, it's just like kiddush. And then Tosafos, maybe by kiddush, so it's a separate sugya now. By kiddush, give the yaitzei with somebody else. You know, Tosafos should have asked this a pashut kiddush. You know what this Tosafos should have been? Zocher, ... yaitzei with somebody else kiddush. See, why is it in the context of Pesach? That's the kasha. That's the kasha. Why is this Tosafos here? You know what this Tosafos should have been? On the Gemara in Shabbos. When the Gemara in Shabbos is ... That's what I thought of it. We're talking about Pesach kiddush, and what's the pshat? The raya is— Because it becomes a cheftza of a kos shel kiddush. It becomes one of the daled kosos. It's not stam kos kiddush al hayayin. It becomes like it's one of the daled kosos. That's why I told you I want to bunch them together. Because he's trying to prove from regular kiddush. Tosafos says like, let's say daled kosos. ... you see that the first kos, unless stam a kos meaning kiddush al hakos, it becomes the first one of the arba kosos. He takes on the shem kos shel kiddush, and that's one of the daled kosos. The same sugya. Okay, let me say this. So what's the question now? When chachamim said that, what did they say? The act of kiddush has to be done al hayayin, or now there's something called making kiddush? There's a ceremony called making kiddush. ... mitzviyut, so ... kiddush. ... Vim ani lo ya'aseh ... kiddush.

You don't say kiddush. You make kiddush. There's a cheftza now called kiddush. It's a ceremony now. If you don't did it, you didn't do what Chazal metaken. You didn't do what Chazal metaken. You want to know how far it goes? I'll tell you how far it goes. I'll tell you how far it goes. That's the fact with ta'ais. Right. Amirah. Ta'ais says amirah, so therefore I can be yotzei his amirah. Any kiddush you cannot be yotzei then comes out. That's what Ta'ais says. Right, right. I'm saying that's Ta'ais's raya. We talked about Ta'ais's raya. Then Ta'ais comes along and says, comes along Ta'ais and says that maybe they're not mechuyav more than the bracha. What's the pshat? Ta'ais is like the Brisker Rav; it's gevaldik, because since the whole yesod of it is what? Is the bracha. Don't start with the kos; start with the bracha. And since they don't have the yayin because they're tainaikis, they have no reason to drink, so at least let them have the bracha without the thing. Ta'ais says, v'nir'eh l'hachmir. What's the v'nir'eh l'hachmir? That you should do the asiyah of the koses. Then Ta'ais says, and you should do it even which makes sure you should be makpid on kos pagum. So actually the kasha: what's the shakla v'tarya of kos pagum? Ta'ais says our kos should be good enough. It didn't make a difference. What's the din of kos pagum? In which halacha is there a problem of kos pagum? It didn't appear. It's a din that you didn't drink a kos. It's not al ha'yayin. You don't need kos pagum. There's no problem of kos pagum. Kos pagum is a din in the she'as hakos. I drank from a kos which wasn't a right stirah. It's not stirah from ... But you'll have to be ... bring a kos. Maybe you don't have to be makpid on kos pasul. Why לאחמיר? Because the etzem, I want to be machmir and say that it's דין in the kos. L'chatchilah, it's a din in the bracha. Now that we made the bracha al hakos, so now it's a din kos now. So maybe we'll make halacha כבוד of kos pasul. Kos pasul is not din yayin; it's a din in kos. Who says it's a kos? Who said the word kos? Al hayayin. Did you see one word of al hayayin? Think about it. זכרה על היין. You know what? Put it in my hand. I'll take the bottle, you know, זכרה על היין. I'll take the bottle of wine. Take the whole bakbuk. Where does it say I have a kos? That's chacham already. Put it on a plate. Any point to the Torah makes no difference. Think about it. זכרה על היין. You know what? Here's bakbuk. Avrom! It's not a din in the kos anyway. But just to say it, to say al hakos, who says what? Let it be a kos pasul. Who cares? מיירי, מיירי, פשט, שטam kos. Again. That's right. That's right. That's the whole question. When they made the tenaiim, what happened now? They said that there's no kiddush without it. You know, Reb Akiva Eiger has a whole shailah if you're yotzei kiddush Friday night if I say good Shabbos. ... If you say good Shabbos. Huh? If you say good Shabbos. You didn't notice? Reb Yaakov brings it down. Why? Because min haTorah you could be yotzei by just saying good Shabbos. Shailah is, what's ... Even ... The teretz is, once Rabbanan came — that's the shailah — once Rabbanan came and said kiddush al hayayin, there's no way to be yotzei de'oraisa unless you do al hayayin. I know. This way, once the chachamim came and said this is the way — exactly, exactly — once they said this is the way to do it, this is the way to do it now. That's the shaila of kois. The shaila of kois always was, now that there became a din of a kois, is there now a special din now, kois for Kiddush? Is there a special halacha of kois, a daled kosos? Yeah, something. He drinks a lot of kosos, even on the bread, I'm saying. No, but that's again the... Exactly. There was. The difference is this is not me, this is Pri Megadim. Not me, it's from Kiveiger. There, it's a safek Kiddush in accordance to Rabbeinu Yonah, ulai. I mean, this is clear by Kiddush it's definitely that way. By Kiddush it is, they're saying that you're not yotzei any other way. This is the way you have to do. There's a Kiddush; if you didn't make Kiddush, you didn't make it. What is the din of kois pagum? Kois pagum has nothing to do with the amirah al hayayin. This is a special din in the chachamim's halachos of shtiyas hakois.

It's not cool. It's not cool, but this kois. ... You're saying by night you have to drink, right? You have to give somebody, right? You can do ... No, tais. Yes, because somebody has to drink it. Somebody has to drink it. Whoever has to drink it, I say whoever has to make Kiddush al hakois cannot make al hakois. Why? Because it's a bizayon for the kos Kiddush. Somebody is masakin. Somebody is masakin. It's a bizayon for the kos. This is not a kos Kiddush, right? For the kos of Kiddush. If you learn that kos of Kiddush is lav davka to the Kiddush, then ... who cares about ... What's ... But if you learn that—yeah, so ... whatever your problem is, you want to ... Now you. I'm saying, so now what? I mean, what do you want? Do the Kiddush. It becomes one. Yeah, it becomes the kos. The kos becomes a chelek of the Kiddush. The kos becomes a chelek of the Kiddush. Okay, let's do it one more time. Where's Avraham? Avraham, sit down. This is special for you. Sit down. It's a little tired today. Okay, let's start again. Pshat, pashut pshat. Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to make you copies. You should learn the Brisker. You should really do it. It's the most famous—I mean, there's not a child in yeshiva that doesn't know this Brisker. I'm serious. There's not any guy who ever walked into yeshiva knows this Brisker. Make a copy and learn it on your own free time. We might do it later on when we get to the sugya, if we ever get there, by this sugya. You put it together. It starts over here. It starts over here. Tell me clearly, what's tais? If I ask you question number one, what's tais's first view? ... What's the view of tais? ... Therefore your answer. Ah, because of the ... right? Because if it's ... you'll say for him ... but why say ...? ... So Tosafos says, you see from here that you didn't give the choice. Question: what's the first question? What's the pshat? Tosafos says just like kiddush. Svara. What's the svara? It's just like kiddush. I don't want to wait till my kiddush. Here's a mitzvah to drink, and here's a mitzvah to make kiddush al hakos. So what's the teretz to that? So you see from here, big yesod. Even the arba kosos, what's the halacha? The way we explain, it starts. What does it start with? Create it from here. Bracha al hakos. That's what it is. Hagadah al hakos. Hallel al hakos. It's like a kiddush. It begins with kiddush. That's how it begins. The kiddush is al hakos. It all begins with the bracha al hakos. Okay. We came along and said then Tosafos turns around and says maybe kiddush goes also for every guy. So Chazon Ish explains, what's the question? Shema kaina. Shema kaina, does it mean I have the act? Could be I have the kiddush because I have the al hakos. We said that no, the problem with that is that it comes in two sugyas. That means two different—I mean Tosafos is like kiddush and then maybe kiddush. This one, separate sugya. Why is this Tosafos not, you know, where? It's kiddush. Why is the Tosafos not Shabbos? Let's discuss kiddush. Maybe somebody else kiddush. We said like this. Tosafos later on explains that the child maybe only has what? The child only has the bracha without the kos. What is that? How can you have the bracha without the kos? Then Tosafos says, and now that we're machmir that everybody has their own kos, shelo yehei kos pagum. And what's the halacha? What's the halacha? You should make it, you should do yotzei the mitzvah properly. What does that mean? We said pshat like this. The way everything begins is it's a bracha al hakos. That's clear, right? Now the question is, what happens now that they will be taken al hakos? Is there now halacha called kos shel daled kosos? And the answer is yes. And how do I prove it? Because you see the din shtiah of our different halachos. What is the din shtiah of rov kos, and what is the din shtiah of what? Melo lugmav. It's clear. So why did Tosafos come and say, you know what, they're not comparable; hacha compared, because here you see there's different halachos. And you know what the answer is? The answer is, that once it became daled kosos, then the halacha is, you know how you mekayem daled kosos shtiah? Through rov kos. You know how you mekayem the din shtiah of kos kiddush? Melo lugmav. And the truth is, it's deeper than that. What's the reason for the daled kosos? Cheirus. So Chazal kaveya—I once said this—Chazal kaveya the shtiah lefi the chiyuv of the mitzvah. Since this is for cheirus reasons, so kaveya shtiah of rov kos. Here it's only a din of what? Latchilah asudah al hayayin. So any shtiah mespekes is—

Good enough already also. בלעילוג was good enough. בלעילוג was good enough. בלעילוג, I drank. I drank something. שתיתי יין בתחילת הסעודה. See the difference? Okay. ממילא, much more. Rav Kaiv. Good, so then the ... I'm saying, is that halacha. What is ... Rav Kaiv? ממילא that's what Taisis discusses. Says Taisis, maybe by daled kosos, since the yesod of the mitzvah is not the שתית הכוס, but rather the yesod of the mitzvah is what? The bracha al הכוס. So where the child can have the bracha without the kos, because he doesn't need the kos, he can be yotzei with the shemiah of the bracha itself. Once we're knocking away the din of al הכוס, so ממילא all he's left is what? With the shemiah. So he can be yotzei with somebody else's shemiah. And Taisis notes the ... how can they have a kos? The hava amina is what? Maybe you don't need a kos. There's no problem of kos pasul. Why? Because maybe it's just a din she'al הכוס. When it's al הכוס, then there's a halacha of pasul. Haytachי al היין. If there's a special halacha in kos, there's no chisaron in the etzem mitzvah if it's pasul. It's just a problem in the kos shel kiddush. But if you learn there's a halacha of kos by daled kosos, or there's a halacha of kos shel kiddush, so then pasul is a chisaron in the kiddush already. Then pasul is a chisaron in the daled kosos already. It doesn't have daled kosos anymore. If it's stam to have it al היין, then pasul wouldn't be a problem. But if it's al היין and now the kos becomes a chelek of the mitzvah, then the pasul means I didn't have the mitzvah. Says Taisis, therefore, v'nihalachmi, you better be careful. Once we say this chidush, that there is a halacha of kois, then you have to be careful to make sure it's not pogem anymore. Tosafos is learning maybe there's no din of kois בכלל, maybe there's a din only. And kois would pogem is stam halachic, yotzei b'zayin. Okay, so for the child it's not. What are you talking about? Tosafos is בכלל. Shemayu she'll be yotzei with this deis kegufei, the same as like by menorah, istikegufei. Okay? Okay, tomorrow ... So it's the same halacha, then he becomes a gavra. So then he becomes a gavra. He becomes his own gavra. What do you mean, his own chiyuv kiddush? Only by an isha. Only by an isha you can do that. An isha is ... If it's midin shlichus, I'm telling you. Yeah, okay, whatever it is, ... even more. ... And this is only by Shabbos and Yom Tov, says the Gemara, because a person is kovea seudah al hayayin, so therefore what? The bracha of the yayin b'tchilah poters the whole meal already. Says the Gemara, vShmuel amar, Shmuel says, afilu kiddush lo yatza. You're not yotzei kiddush either. Why not? Because you need kiddush b'makom seudah. Says Rashi, vim kidesh, right, vloi sa, lo yatza ידי קידוש. Because the problem is, you don't have kiddush b'makom seudah. Let's say you eat seudah over there. You good, same kiddush. Okay, so that's if you drink a reviis. One second. That's a sheet in the Magen Avraham. That's already halacha after this Gemara. Now, k'lal, we have a machlokes here. The first man damar says that you're yotzei the kiddush, and the second man damar says you're not yotzei the kiddush. Kiddush b'makom seudah. Comes out that the first man damar is mashma that you don't hold kiddush b'makom seudah. Well, some say it's a svara that says it's not true, that even the first man damar holds kiddush b'makom seudah. We'll see, we'll see. But now, k'lal, this is pashut in the Gemara. Okay. Oisan bnei adam, who are we referring to? Who are the oisan bnei adam? Ah, so pashut, you say it's the people that do kiddush in the shul, right? So the Rishonim, example, the Maharam Chalav, the Rosh, the Talmidei Rashba, they all ask the same question: how could they be yotzei if they didn't drink from kiddush at all? There's a halacha of ta'am, mekadesh paim. You have to drink. The whole shul, the whole shul drank the kiddush. The whole shul. Who said the whole shul drank the kiddush?

Every Shabbos night, they make Baruch Atah, right in the shuls they make kiddush. When you walk into a Young Israel, one person drinks and that's it. Nobody else drinks. The truth is, you do. You have to see the Gemara. So let me show you. Oisam bnei adam shekinshu b'veis haknesses, right? Ami kai u'medaber, oisam bnei adam. Who is it referring to, oisam bnei adam? Who are those people that there's a machlokes if they're yotzei or not? You could say two things. Says the Ramchalava, says the Ramchalava, says the Ramchalava, that the pshat is that what? It's referring to all the people. Says the Ramchalava on this, but the question is, the Gemara says clearly, hamekadeish, if he's ta'amei, yatza; lo ta'am, lo yatza. Let's see the Gemara, Kuf Zayin. He brings the Gemara, Kuf Zayin. Yes, that's true, but now we're talking about kiddush b'layla. We're talking about the kiddush of the laila, because that's what it is. B'veis haknesses they used to make kiddush b'layla. Okay, so let's see the Gemara, Kuf Zayin. Im lav, lo yatza. Hamekadeish v'ta'am, yatza; lo ta'am, lo yatza. V'hachi hilchesa, says the Rashbam. Huh? What do you mean? Who says they were? Who says they weren't? Let's go slowly, let's go slowly. Again, the Ramchalava comes and says, oisam bnei adam. Who is the oisam bnei adam referring to? Says the Ramchalava that who is it? Oisam bnei adam are the people in the shul, you hear? Pashut means the people in the shul. Says Ramchalava, how could the people in the shul be yotzei? If they never drank, it says clearly that you need... because this is not anybody drank. Why not? I mean, let's see it. I have a question. You give them hefer everybody. You have one cup and... You don't think everybody drank. You know what it is? You never saw the minhag, that's why you don't realize. The minhag, in the younger years, they do it. He gives little kids to drink. Oh, that's why. Why not? Right? Right. Who has to drink? The mekadesh has to drink. But all the people, says Maran Chalavah, don't have to drink, right? Because stam, they didn't have enough in the wine of kiddush to give every poor person to drink. I, the chitei... I want to say, like you said, like the chassidim, each guy has his own cup. ... Right? Who has his own cup? He's drinking like the Gemara over there. You know why? Because he says that the whole point is, the whole thing is they're an ani, so they don't have. Why are they being yotzei with the shul? Why are they being yotzei? Because they don't have. If they would have, they don't need the people in the shul. What's the case? I don't see. You're talking about poor people that don't have, right? So maybe the shul gave it to them, so they make their own kiddush then. They make their own kiddush. Oh. ... Afilu teima... ... bnei kisnista. Right? Or maybe they gave everybody out. Lo imamti lo vadai. Afilu teima demamti lehu, lahu kasa lekula bnei bei knishta, lo imamti lo vadai. Aha, it's not pashur though. V'afilu hachi, amar רבי יוחנן, נפילי יאי נמי לא יצאו. The kolsken yedei kiddush. Aha. He's saying it's not pashur. That's what he's trying to say. You can't be guaranteed that everybody would get. So how could they talk clearly, yedei yatzu or lo yatzu? Depends if they drank at an injury. In other words, let it come and say, okay, those that drank and those that didn't drink.

So teretz is obviously no, it doesn't make a difference if you drank or not. This is Rav Chalav, okay? Good? No, he's trying to say is—no, he's trying to say if everybody drank, so then what's the shita that holds yedei yayin lo yatza? Yeah, maybe because they didn't drink enough, maybe. Yeah, maybe because they didn't drink enough. Because they didn't מספיק. That's why. Sometimes they pass the cup between each one so he can be to'eh. Even if they're to'eh. But his kasha is, why does Rabbi Yochanan say that you're not yotzei, you're not yotzei kiddush, eila ma'aseh if you drank, so then you should be yotzei kiddush because you have a makom seudah of the drinking. Because... okay, this we want to say back and forth. All right, this is Rav Chalav. Okay, good, you ready? So let's answer question number one. Question number one: oisa minei... If you see in the Rishonim, the Rishonim want to say that everybody— Which Rishonim? You see from Rav Chalav, he's trying to say that it's everybody. What's the kasha on it? The kasha on it is... but they didn't taste. And I thought you have to taste. So the teretz is, gimel, shedavka mekadesh bo yeshi. If you look at the Rashbam, he says the same thing in the Gemara over there, that the mekadesh, the mekadesh has to drink. Huh? The Ramchalavah says it clearly. Yes, the Ramchalavah says, and if you look at the Rashbam, he learns the Gemara like that over there. Over there, kulam zayin. When the Gemara says, ha'mekadesh, the mekadesh tzarich sheyitayim, but not kol echad min hamesubin. How did it come into Pesachim? How did it come into Pesachim? Why is the sugya of Kiddush over here? You wanna—? No, that's what he's trying to say, but l'maaseh the ikar sugya says Kiddush. Huh? Okay. Kiddush, Pesach night is de'oraisa. No, that's what he's trying to say, but l'maaseh the ikar sugya says Kiddush. Okay. Pesach night you want to make a beis haknesses. You didn't make Kiddush b'veis haknesses. You needed a daled kosos. You didn't make b'veis haknesses. Yeah, yeah, okay. So part of this is teretz number one. Teretz number one, that who has to make—who has to taste. So ask the taste of the wine to the kaddish. Let me ask you a kasha. That's ... I don't understand something. If you learn that the other guy didn't taste the wine, so what happened to the ...? I don't understand. Well, how am I yotzei? So what's even the shakla v'tarya there? Yayin yotzei, it is shelo yatza. Kiddush only, not the wine. So why do you say al ta'ikar b'kamai? I never had a borei pri hagafen. The other guy drank. I had kiddush, not the wine. Okay, but I didn't have a borei pri hagafen. The other guy drank. What does that have to do with ...? Excuse me, you don't have wine because you don't have ... Can I come and say like this: I'll make a borei pri hagafen, you don't have to drink, it's good enough for you? No. Yes, yes, you can say that. No. What's the harmony that you can drink later? ... Otam bnei adam. We're not jumping over. Otam bnei adam. Who are the people? Says the ... Chalava, you know who the people are? Not the mekadesh, but otam bnei adam means everybody in the shul. Says the ... question, I don't understand. So how could you be yotzei if you didn't drink? Says the ... and the Rashbam says it over there also on that Gemara, and who says you have to drink? As long as the mekadesh drinks, it's good enough. So we'll get talking about it. Again. No, otam bnei adam means the people in the shul. I mean, why'd you say everybody? Why'd you say otam bnei adam? We'll talk about it, we'll talk about it. We'll see. Comes along here, comes along the ... and he says this teretz, that only the mekadesh has to drink. My question to you is, what is the Gemara have a tzad that who's yotzei and who's not yotzei? Says the Gemara, yedei yayin lo yatzu, meaning when he goes to his house. He doesn't even have the, you know, here either. He doesn't have the [unclear] over here either. What's the [unclear]? I don't understand. If I want to drink wine.

Right now, I don't think another ... technically. Yeah, but I wasn't—I don't have a ... at all. Why am I saying because of hesch hadas? I wasn't ... anything. It wasn't ... anything, the ... Yeah, but I wasn't ... anything. I didn't taste anything over here. I'm telling you, he had better reason. So say I wasn't—there's no ... at all. I didn't drink. But I didn't. The Rishonim say I didn't taste. No, I mean to say it's ... with that bracha, fine. But I wasn't yotzei that bracha. I didn't drink. That's your kasha, right? Why are we clarifying about hesch hadas? The bracha wasn't chal on anything. Let's see the teretz of the meiri. It comes from the meiri. That oisah bnei adam is not referring to the people in the shul. Oisah bnei adam is referring to the mekadesh, those people who make kiddush. Those people who are making kiddush, and they're drinking l'maaseh because they're the ones who are making kiddush. Otam bnei adam, they're talking about. And those people who are making kiddush, and anybody else—not a shaylah. That's how the meiri learns. Otam bnei adam. He says like this. Says the meiri two reasons. How do I know this? The first reason he says I know it because of the lashon of otam bnei adam. Those people, like a certain group, yeah, and a certain group, not. I mean everybody in the shul, no? If everybody's there, everybody's there, right? Otam means referring—otam, those that made the kiddush here, and those—that's... Okay, shekitzu means that they made the Kiddush. Now, pas shekitzu means they were trying to hear the Kiddush. It says no, it's pasto, shekitzu, the ones that made the Kiddush. That's happening to me, we learn. Now, so I bring you over here: Mahu yesod divrei haMeiri, lamah hein bnuyim? The answer is, halashon otam bnei adam. It's based on the lashon of otam bnei adam, mashma, lo kulam; it's mashma there's a group. So I want you to know there's two things that I think you have to know in pshat. There's a very interesting Chasam Sofer that asks this question: what's the otam bnei adam? Say, the shul, the people in the shul. What's otam? I mean, everybody made Kiddush. Says the Chasam Sofer, you see from here that the minhagim were talui then also; not every shul made. Otam bnei adam means those shuls that did it, not all shuls made. Yeah, whatever it was. Yeah, whatever it was, whatever it was, the minhagim, there's different shuls. The Chasam Sofer says, the otam bnei adam meaning, once baalei haMeiri's deal. The Meiri makes a deal: otam bnei adam, lama katuv otam? Those groups of shuls, the shuls, those shuls that made. Otam bnei adam, yeah, you with me? Okay. What's the second thing? The second thing I want to tell you. The truth is, I don't understand the whole deal. I mean, if you read the Gemara, pashut pshat, you know what otam bnei adam means? The people who want to be yotzei with the Kiddush. Yeah, I mean, you think every guy in shul, everybody left. What do you think, most people left? Yeah, I'm saying they ran out. What do you think, everybody stayed for Kiddush? People ran out, people were talking. Otam bnei adam means the people in the makom to be yotzei with Kiddush. I don't understand the big thing, Rishonim. You see the Meiri's bothered by the kasha, otam bnei adam. I mean, there was people in the shul that wanted to be yotzei with the Kiddush; not everybody wants to be yotzei. Otam bnei adam shekitzu bveis haknesses means that they were mechaven to the Kiddush. Not everybody wanted to be. I'm trying to tell you, the question is not—what's the shaylah of the Rishonim and the Chasam Sofer, why it says otam bnei adam? Yeah, because not everybody wanted to be yotzei with the shul; they went home. But that's why it's otam. Otam means those aniyim. Why should the shul be only aniyim? Why should the whole shul be aniyim? You have a shul of aniyim. You know, they used to have in Europe, I don't know if you know that, the shuls where the people were all the same. There was the shuster shul, there was the chlayster, the—huh? The shuster means the shoemaker shul. Then they had the blacksmith, the cahanim shuls, they had this. In Europe, the shuls were, you know, all the kohanim stuck together. I'm telling you, it's a famous thing. The what? Yeah, I'm telling you, in Europe they used to have this. In Europe they used to have that they used to stick together. So he wants to say that the whole shul is aniyim. Why should the whole shul be aniyim? Otam, bnei adam.

People who want to be yotzei the Kiddush, huh? I see ... Friday night, very good. Who goes to shul Friday night? Only the poor people. The rich people stay home. Ah, yeah. Al kol panim, guys, you hear? Truthfully, if I had to write over the Gemara, that's how I would write it. אותם בני אדם שקידשו — those people that stay for the Kiddush, not everybody stays for the Kiddush. Yeah, I mean, that's those people that were involved with the Kiddush. Not everybody wants to be yotzei the Kiddush. Most people said, I don't need it. I don't know, the Meiri makes a diyuk in some sefer. I don't know, it's not such a big ... There's a pashut pshat without the diyuk. I'm telling you pshat. I'm learning how to read. אותם בני אדם שקידשו — it's those people that stood for the Kiddush. Not everybody stood, not everybody paid attention to it. A lot of people were outside talking already by Kiddush. Who needed it? They didn't need it. You're missing the point. I'm trying to tell you this. אותם בני אדם שקידשו — the Rishonim want to know, who are these people? Why does he use such a lashon? So the Chatam Sofer says, you see from here that not all the shuls did it. It's אותם בני אדם, means those shuls that did it. The Meiri says אותם בני אדם means דווקא the people who were making the Kiddush. No, he's just trying to say, because the question is, should we medayek from this thing — sometimes should we medayek from here that you should make Kiddush in the shuls Friday night? Yeah, the question wants to know in minhag. Maybe there's a mekor from the Gemara you should make Kiddush. Same, because of this Gemara. It's based on this Gemara. Says the Chatam Sofer, lahalacha it's not so muchach from the Gemara, because all the Gemara says is אותם בני אדם. Obviously you see not everybody did it. But it's a very nice Chatam Sofer. Yeah, there's no reason for it, because they hold there's no reason for it. Not Friday night. Not Friday night. No such thing Friday night cake. Yeah, I'm saying the question is, should every shul do it? Says the Chasam Sofer, in Shulchan Aruch it says you should do it. Why does Shulchan Aruch say you should do it? Because of this Gemara. Says the Chasam Sofer, if you read the words of the Gemara, it's not muchrach that you have to do it. There are shuls that do it and shuls that don't do it. That's what you see from the Gemara. Meaning, he's being medayek the lashon of the Meiri, the Rishonim's question: why say al ta'am bnei adam? So the Rishonim give a teretz, al ta'am bnei adam, because it's referring to the Mikdash. The Chasam Sofer says, no, it's referring to the whole shul, but it's certain shuls. And I'm telling you the whole kashya is not such a big kashya in the first place. Why? Al ta'am bnei adam, because not everybody paid attention to the kiddush. No, but— I mean, most people went home. What do they need the kiddush for? They went home. Al ta'am bnei adam. It's not a question about if you should or you shouldn't do it, because if there's people that want to do kiddush Friday night, you have to do it for them. Who said I have to do for them? I have to make in shul kiddush, go make your own kiddush. Good, take the wine and make kiddush, what do you want from me? Why do I have to make a ceremony in the shul to make kiddush? Yeah, but— Do you know what? Do you know what? They don't have wine, they don't have the attitude to do kiddush. Yeah, but why would I make kiddush in a shul? I mean, you're not even yotzei with the kiddush in the shul. Don't you understand the problem? The problem is, he wants to even better. You're missing the whole point. Should a shul today make kiddush in the shul? Today nobody needs it. Should I make the kiddush anyway? So if the minhag was to make kiddush, in case, in case, then you make it anyway. Fact question of learning: you don't have to make kiddush for people to learn. It's not a lesson, it's not a— Because for him the problem is kiddush makom seudah anyway, to make another kiddush. And he says why: ... אורחים ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Lo batla atakan. Zehu taam mekomot ha... Gemara. ... Avu yoter tov. ... That's the... That's the... ... Chatam sofer, oysom bnei adam. You see that it's not everybody. ... This... ... Chatam sofer, this Gemara. Now you understand what the Chatam Sofer wants. They were נהגו because of... Now you're saying it's... But you see, even then it was ... bnei adam shenahagu. But it's ... even then it was.