Dina D’Malchusa Dina: Government Law, Property Rights, and Halachic Business Obligations

Transcript

This Torah class is brought to you by TorahAnytime.com. We'll begin by going through the mekor in the Gemara, where the Gemara speaks about this halacha of dina d'malchusa dina, and we'll try to explain the what and the why of dina d'malchusa dina, and then we could see how in modern day, in our day lives, how it applies. So let's begin by pashut translation: dina d'malchusa dina, the law of the land. It's a simple translation. Law of the land is law. Where is the shaila? What's called dina and what's called malchusa? Now it becomes complicated. Halacha seems pretty simple: dina d'malchusa dina. Got to follow the laws of the land. What's called laws, and which malchusa? What's called a malchus, a government included? What's malchus? Malchus is simply a king, a malchus. What's included in malchusa? So the truth is, dina d'malchusa dina is Shmuel's halacha. So remember, it's not all over Shas. Whenever you're going to hear the word dina d'malchusa dina, remember you'll see Amar Shmuel, v'ha amar Shmuel. It's Shmuel who said dina d'malchusa dina. Interesting. What did before Shmuel, what did they say? What do you mean, v'ha amar Shmuel? Shmuel said dina d'malchusa dina. What does that mean? Shmuel invented dina d'malchusa dina. It's an interesting ha'ara. And as the shiur progresses, we'll maybe understand better why it's a bishmul's invention. Let me give you a little hint. We don't know what the mekor of dina d'malchusa dina is, and if there is one. In the Gemara, you're not going to find not the mekor and not the reason why dina d'malchusa dina, which is going to lead the way to have a very fierce machlokes, many Rishonim, the where this comes from and the why. And of course that's going to be the nafka minas in halacha. If you understand the where it comes, what's the mekor, and the why, it's going to have a lot of nafka mina. But in pshat of the Gemara, as we begin, v'ha'omar Shmuel, it's Shmuel. Shmuel is the mechadesh of dina d'malchusa dina. So you're going to find it in four places. When you look at the Gemara right away on the side, the Gilyon is going to send you to four mekoros of dina d'malchusa dina, v'ha'omar Shmuel. So let's begin with Gittin. The Mishnah says, Kol ha'shtaros ha'olim b'arkayos shel ovdei kochavim, af al pi shechosmeihem ovdei kochavim, k'sheirim. Documents, documents that are goyish—let's, I guess for lack of a better vernacular, a goyish document, right? The halacha is it's a kosher document, and even if it's not signed by Yidden, it's binding according to Yiddish halacha. The Gemara says, ka pasik v'tani. Lo shno mecher, lo shno matanah. It's mashma all documents are kosher, whether it's a mecher, a sale, a deed of sale, and whether it's a proof, sometimes you have a shtar, it's just to prove something. It seems in the Mishnah, lo shno, says the Gemara, but why? Bishlama im shtar raya, all right, you have a paper signed by people, it's a raya. But if it's to make a mecher, says the Gemara, mecher means this itself is the binding force behind the mechirah, but it's not a real shtar. We know there's a sugya called shtar mechirah. Wait a minute, says the Gemara, l'kaposi v'tani lo shno mecher, lo shno matanah. Bishlama mecher mechayev zuzi kamaihu, hu d'kani, because we don't need the shtar, because the money itself is binding. But, says the Gemara, ha d'kani b'shtar raya b'alma hu, d'ilav zuzi kamaihu, v'ka meir nafshaihu, v'kasvin lei shtar. Ela matanah. What about matanah? Says the Gemara, b'mai ka kani? Lav b'hai shtar, v'hai shtar chaspa b'alma. It's not a real shtar in halacha. It's not a shtar that has kinyanei koach al pi the Torah. We know there's a shtar in the Torah. On this the Gemara says—

This, al mashmuel, dina d'malchusa dina, since it is binding in the legal courts, meileh we have dina d'malchusa dina. So this is the first place where we find dina d'malchusa dina, okay? Now what is this dina d'malchusa dina? That's that the judicial, the legal, the courts, their koach, they have the strength to make law. So therefore, if it's a legal document, it's accepted in halacha, in the Torah. Dina d'malchusa dina. I see you working on every word I'm saying. Who says an old kasha? Well, you know the sugya. So the question is where it comes from, then we'll know if it's d'Oraisa, d'Rabbanan. But before we get there, what is it? What is dina d'malchusa dina? And the answer is: court. When the courts accept a legal document, it's accepted in halacha. That's what we have over here. So it's not only a shtar raya, but even a shtar matanah that actually makes the kinyan. It's not that complicated. Everybody's trying—I'm not saying anything that deep. It's a very simple thing. Mr. Chaloya? Yep. Good. Bring me your papers, and anything I sign that your government law, it's a legal document. It works. The legal, the jurisdiction. The Gemara in Nedarim is the famous one and the most, so to speak, controversial. The Gemara in Nedarim, chaf-ches amud aleph, speaks about taxes. And the Gemara says, are you allowed to evade taxes? Are you allowed to make a neder to promise that you did pay or you don't have to pay your taxes? Says the Gemara, Chazal said, you're allowed to make such a neder. It doesn't make a difference if you're trying to evade the taxes. It's called nidrei onesim, and you can evade the taxes. Says the Gemara, evading taxes? Dina d'malchusa dina, that you're not allowed to evade taxes because of dina d'malchusa dina. So that's tax, legal documents. That's all we have so far. The Gemara Bava Kama speaks about confiscation of property. You know, they make bridges and they make all types of roads. Exactly, eminent domain, which means they're able to take your property and build on it. What right does another Yid have to drive on property that was taken from Chaim David, his friend? And the Gemara says that's dina d'malchusa dina. So we have eminent domain, government property. That's Nedarim. Bava Basra, נד דף עמוד ב, yes. What is eitzim? Eitzim is karka. Eitzim is metaltelin. What right do I have to make a road in somebody else's field? Yeah, but what about the gishrei, the bridge itself? The Gemara says that you're allowed to go through the bridge. It's both. The Gemara speaks about... I could charge you for going on the bridge, right? They do charge you going on the bridge. Yeah, but that's also my— but there's also karka involved. And also— one second, one second. I see I'm going to have a rough time with this. I see. I see we have our days cut out for us. But what is gishri? Gishri means they make gishri, and they make— the Gemara speaks about both cases. The Gemara speaks about making bridges. What do you mean? The only thing you have is wood to make a bridge. I can make wood to make a house. It's about also the pith. They're taking land, and they're confiscating land. And what's the point of the Gemara? That they own. There's an ownership that the government has, that they're able to have property. Property is not, so to speak, you're the boss. The government is the boss. Still not. So let me tell you a Gemara Bava Basra. The Gemara Bava Basra discusses, can I buy with money karka? And the answer is, of course, mo'os konos. In the legality of Bavel, you needed to have some kind of a document. Mistama today also, you can't just go buy property. It has to be with—

So the Gemara wants to know, if I bought with money, does that enough lahalacha? Or if I didn't have the shtar, if I don't have any transaction done by a legal paper, the kinyan is not koneh. V'amar Shmuel, dina d'malchusa dina. All right, I'm ready to go. I'm ready to do with you. Let's go. You ready? So give me the four cases. Let's see the four cases and what's the common denominator. The first case is shtaros, legal documents. If you look at Rashi, beis din. Rashi refers to the beis din of Akum, which means the judicial. The judicial has a koach lahalacha, beis din. Many Rishonim, as we soon will see, seem to say it's more of bnei Noach mitzuvim al hadinim. So therefore their courts are able to set policy. Does that have to do with the government per se, per se? Not clear in the Rishonim. Many Rishonim discuss that, but from Rashi and the case of the Gemara in Gittin, the story is court. Courts have a koach, a legal authority to make rule. Nedarim is taxes, and I will not discuss taxes because I'm a smart guy. Yes. Okay, next. Okay, but that we understand. So the Gemara actually says that where it's not fear the taxes, it's ein lo kitzvah, which means it's not legal, it's not distributed fairly, the rules, then you could avoid it. Like I said, I will not touch taxes today, please, I beg. It's a legal holiday, well. So it's dina malchusa dina. Okay, you hear? So I'm not touching tax, please don't go there. Privately, come over and I'll tell you about taxes, okay. The next case we have is bava kama, and that is that they're able, like he said, emina d'meina, they could come and confiscate your land, your properties, and say, Listen, it's ours. And bava basra seems to be more in the business, the commerce. They set the rules of commerce. If they say kinyanim need a shtar, you can't just make a kinyan, I pay and that's it. It has binding rules lahalacha, okay. What else is included in dina d'malchusa dina? A lot, and it's complicated because we need to fully understand, like I explained before, what is the mekor and the why, and then we can apply it. Interesting, like I mentioned, it's not in the Gemara. V'ha'amar Shmuel. Shmuel said. Why did Shmuel say it? Where did he get it from? Not clear. So if you look at the Rishonim, they argue on this question. The most simple of all is the Teshuvas HaGaonim siman samach vav. You gotta live in peace, shalom with the medina. That's it. You live here, let us say for a lack of a better term, hakaras hatov. Listen, you're living among people. Is that darchei olam? Yeah, it's darchei shalom, darchei olam, menhug kay, midos, hakaras hatov. Any musar shmooze you want to put into it, that's it. Depends on which yeshiva you go to and which Rosh Yeshiva wants to learn a musar shmooze from this halacha, okay? Whatever it is, the halacha is get along with your neighbors. That's the story, all right? You gotta get along with the people around you and appreciate the government. What's the... legal holiday? Gut, so zayin a zai. So this is in Teshuvas HaGaonim. Where becomes the question, what happens if they're not gonna know about it, that I didn't listen to the rule? It's not going to cause a big friction. It's not a problem. They don't care. They turn a blind eye. It's gezel nishan. So then it's not a problem lahalacha. If the whole thing is that I have to respect, so to speak, that I can't cause friction and tensions, if they don't care, they don't care. So possibly you could come and say all the non-binding, anybody call non-enforced things, that they don't really care about, there was no dina d'malchusa dina, because it's not inherently halacha. Is that a good svara? I said this to many gedolei Yisrael, many poskim over the years. It's an interesting ha'ara. If in my own house, where they don't know the difference, is there still legally something called din d'malchusa dina lahalacha? If you know for sure they're not going to find out. I mean, yeah, so that's maybe, that might... that's the point. In a case where they won't find out, where they don't care, not a bind.

And you'll be shocked to know how many such cases we have every day in our daily lives. It'll be interesting. We'll be talking about them later. The practical will come later. Walk over the bridge. What? What? I won't walk over the bridge. Everyone's walking over. I go some other way. I take a boat. Why am I allowed to do something because of that? No, I'm saying something else. You need to follow their laws. I wasn't talking about even the boat, the bridge. Anything which they tell me I must do, gotta listen to them. Yeah, that's a good ha'ara. I understand. You want to know, in the case of Bava Basra, how does it apply shalom with the Medina? Well, I guess when they set up a society with rules, and I follow, I hear in this particular case, just don't go on the bridge. I mean, you'll swim to Staten Island. That's what you want to say? Okay, maybe you'll swim to Staten Island. He ain't going on the Verrazzano Bridge. I hear your ha'ara, but like I said, I hear, I hear, but it's not, because you have the other cases in the Gemara. You know, each case you could sit and pick, is it mamish? But this is in general, more or less, b'rachav, in a broad sense. You live here, behave here, okay? He's smiling. Let me tell you what you're smiling about, because, you know, at ten o'clock everyone's gonna tell me, and then we're gonna get— all right. Now, there's a ma'biting zeila, perek hei, halachiyos, and a goy in the shulchan aruch, siman samech-peh, os lamed-gimmel, ... So im ta'asim alecha melech, and you better listen to that melech. Does it only, what, a Yiddishe king? Even a goyishe king too. Soim, the halacha is that the Torah, the vekeshtelt, that you gotta listen. You gotta be subordinate to a king, even a goyishe king. The pasuk? Yeah, the pasuk is by Yiddishe melachim, and they're saying parshas melachim applies even to a goyishe king when you're in his domain. According to this, we could come and say maybe it's only when it's a king, it's a monarchy. Today there's a monarchy, and I could talk about England with the malka chashuva, but in general, New York City, America, we have the concept of monarchy. Many Acharonim ask that according to the Gaon, it has to have a shem melech. It has to be a malchus with a melech, maybe. Rashi, like I told you, says, story, hadyotis, story arkoyos, has to do with beis din. Many Rishonim. Okay, you know, we have a president. You want to call him a melech? You soim ta'asim alecha melech. He's like a melech. All right, so that is the famous— Melech can't get impeached. Okay. He knows that. Let me tell you, as the shiur goes on, I have a lot of jokes about these things, but I'm gonna keep it to a— There's a Rashi, like I said, that says that has to do with beis din. Many Rishonim learn. The Bnei Noach mitzuvim al hadinim. Since the Torah tells the malchus to set up בתי דינים, so we need to listen to those בתי דינים. So the origin of it is what? Min haTorah. And that's your good question. You asked me, is it min haTorah or is it miderabbanan, machlokes rishonim? And it's based on this question. Is it because you have to have shalom, you have to have peace, so then it's only derabbanan, right? There's no ... in the Torah, except after ... I don't know. It cannot be a mekor. But if it's ... מלך, or it's Bnei Noach mitzuvin al hadinim, and if they don't put dinim, they're chayav misa min haTorah, so the origins of dinim d'malchusa dina are where? In the Torah. The Rashbam in Bava Basra, nun-daled, that I quoted to you, is really, what do we call, the mekor of where everyone starts from, because there the Rashbam is in one of the papers on Bava Basra. Says the Rashbam, taxes and ... whatever they call, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He says a yesod.

The yesod is kiblu hamedinah. You accepted that. When you decide to live in a place, you've accepted, and all the people have accepted on themselves. In English they call it a social contract. So we have two very fancy words: eminat domein and social contract. Those are the two things that everybody's going to say: social contract. You live here, you've accepted. Mekablim aleihem. You see the words in the Rashbam? Mekablim, you've accepted. So let me tell you like this. Okay, so let me tell you. So there's a Trumas HaDeshen that discusses your question. Okay. Okay, so you know that there's going to be a lot of discussion of that later. I'm just laying the groundwork first. You know I'm going to be tummling and mixing and matching. We're going to get into this real good. I understand what you're saying, but let me tell you all about Trumas HaDeshen. I'm prepared for you. I'm prepared for you. We know each other for many years. The Trumas HaDeshen says, what happens if the guy says, I don't accept the government. Not mekabel. I'm a Democrat, Republican, Republican, Democrat. He's not my president. He is my president. Right. So the Trumas HaDeshen, we don't care. Why? First of all, who cares about you? Your father was here before you. Maybe he accepted the government. What was his name again? Roosevelt, but Yenavelt, but Devel, you have no idea. They worshipped Roosevelt. Yeah, but now they know what Roosevelt... Yeah, all right. Al kol panim. Your father accepts, okay. And even if you're gonna say that you did it, but you live here, so that means you accepted. So you're saying, Trumas hadeshen, I didn't say it. When you live here, you accept. But this, that you can scream, chai v'kayam, that's one of your rights, and they're very kind for you to let you do that. The bottom line is, you're here. That means you accept to be here. And if you accept to be here, accept to be here, a hundred percent. So after with the shiur, you work it out. As a lawyer, huh? A lawyer? Okay. Are you a lawyer? Are you a lawyer? Go, go, go defend me from this. You're my lawyer. Okay, go ahead. Now, the Rambam—let's talk... The Rambam says, yeah, what? Mekabel. Tell me, whose money are you using, tzoltz bishkalim or tzoltz bdolarim? You accept, you accept it. If you're using the money of the Medina, that means you accept to be here. I never saw a guy trade, if I stay for a... his chicken in the backyard. He's machlif parah bchamor. You're using the money here, and if you're using the money here, it's a Rambam, zeh leperek hei, you tzutzeichen the Rambam, I think. Rambam, zeh leperek hei, halacha yud-ches. The fact that you're using the money of the place you're living in, that's a raya. That's a raya that you're mekabel, that you're mekabel. Says the Beis Yosef, so wait a minute. What is that a proof of? What is that a proof? Zogt the Beis Yosef, first of all, he says, b'shem the Ra'ah, the medina is owned by the government. The medina is owned by the government. They own it. Kani la melech. What becomes the shaylah? Let's say, let's say a person, he's just traveled. He's traveling Europe. So there he also accepted? That's called, I live here, I accept. The medina is owned by who? By them, by the government. Punkt, I'm traveling through, and the meileh therefore what? That means I also accept. I live here, I accept. If I'm traveling and I'm passing by, how do we apply the svara of the Rishonim? So I've spoken over with many roshei yeshiva, poskim over the years, and I think the pshat is the fact that you agree to pass into this place, that means you're mekabel whatever this government that you're in is. Tell me, you're going to be using their police in case you need something, you'll be calling the police from there.

That itself means you're mekabel. You don't have to have, what do we call it, birth positive, birth, that you have a birth certificate living here. The fact that you come into another country and you're willing to rely on their services and you're relying, that's l'choira also. So the fact that you went in there... I like your svara. That's really what I'm trying to say. I don't know. Maybe the laws of dina d'malchusa has to have some kind of acceptance, and I'm searching for some kind of that you've accepted. And when I pass through, I usually accept the services. But if you're saying that you're running and you're hiding and you're just... maybe not. Maybe not. That's the svara. Yes, so then a Chanami, that would be the svara. If he's a melech—now first of all, let me tell you, there's an old famous goy. The goy says, Ki laShem hameluchah, u'moshel bagoyim. What's the chiluk between melech and moshel? Ki laShem hameluchah, u'moshel bagoyim. He says that by Klal Yisrael, melech is accepted. It's accepted by HaKadosh Baruch Hu, we accept. So, Ki laShem hameluchah, u'moshel. But over the goyim, they don't accept him, so he's a moshel. It doesn't say dina d'moshel, it says dina d'mal... Chusah. It has to be some form of acceptance. If he's a ruler and he's a dictator, it's pashut it's not accepted. I'm mechuyiv to listen to a dictator. I hear your argument. It's very possible with all these dictators, there was a lot of benefits, and the people liked their dictator. Yes, you could, and then this is a big topic. You know, we could talk for weeks. That's the shaylah, all right? I hear. Well, that's called malchusah. But I'm just trying to tell you the word is malchusah, not moyshel, and there's a chiluk between a malchus and a moyshel. And where is this? That's the Gemara in Kuf Yud Gimmel, where the Gemara says that, for example, in the darmor says by meches it has to be that he's accepted. It has to be that there's some form of cheshbon in the laws. It's not stam he's coming in and forcing everybody and putting laws on people that they can't accept. All right, that's the question. So let's discuss the famous shaylah, and that is: does this apply in Eretz Yisrael? Why? Svara is that it's owned by the melech. The melech owns. Beis Yosef, medinas kanui lamelech. Not in— okay, I'm going to be careful. I am not discussing politics here, okay? I'm discussing halacha l'maaseh. The medinah, you know, let's just say the land. I want to be very careful here, okay? The land is not owned by the government in Eretz Yisrael. Ay, you'll ask me, Ura, the Torah says, nischalkah lishvatim. When you own land, not in America, rabosai. People think I'm buying property. The melech owns your property, להלכה. In Eretz Yisrael, you're buying land. It's yours. Eretz Yisrael nischalka l'shvatim, and they have very little kinyan, if any, over Eretz Yisrael's karka, the land itself. Government—no matter, I'm not going to get into the word government there—but al kol panim, the land is owned, nischalka l'shvatim. So the Ran in Nedarim chav ches amud aleph says clearly, and therefore in Eretz Yisrael there is no din of the malchusa dina. Huh? That's a good question, but whatever it is, the government definitely doesn't own it. I wasn't discussing if you own it. I said you could own it. I see I'm going to have to take off my hat for this. Yeah, they're giving me a run for my money. Okay, al kol panim, listen. The Ran taka paskens that in Eretz Yisrael this doesn't apply. Where's the Ran again? Ran in Nedarim chav ches amud aleph. The Rashbam argues. The Chasam Sofer has a whole arichus, Choshen Mishpat siman nun daled, that in Eretz Yisrael it does apply because, again, maybe it has a lot to do with the real...

Hora of widening the malchusa dina. Is it that it's konei mamish to him, or that he has jurisdiction, the government, Eretz Yisrael? I mean, whatever it is, they have jurisdiction, and it does apply dina d'malchusa dina in Eretz Yisrael as well. Minhag, the minhag is that yes, there is dina d'malchusa, as they were brought in Acharonim, that today, even though we could start saying, Well, the Ran, it's not konei, l'maaseh dina d'malchusa dina applies in Eretz Yisrael. That's what I just said. Yeah, yeah, so come closer. Okay, that's exactly what we just said. Could be it's תלוי this shaila, yeah. If it's about owning, then you have a Ran. If it's about social contract, then it must be. Very good, very good. L'maaseh, everything we spoke could be tied to money. That's what I think we were talking a little bit, right? It's about who owns and money and kinyanim and business. It's tied to money. What about dina d'malchusa dina when it's not a money issue? Does it apply for things which are also not money? Now, rabosai, let me discuss this. If you learn that the melech or the government, it's the ba'alim, they own, they own your land, they don't own your money. They own your money. If anything, it's more about the land and what they could tell you to do on their land than what they could tell you to do about your money, right? Stay your ground. Stay your ground. Where it's coming from. There is a certain law. He doesn't know the law. There is a certain law in some states that to protect yourself, if you feel you're being challenged, you can take a gun and shoot that person. Yeah, stand your ground. It's Massachusetts. Massachusetts, in fact. You could protect your—by killing the other person. I don't know. A dinei ... had rules? No, I don't know why. You want to know dina d'deim dina? Is that your question? I'm not—it's a different topic for a different day, I think, right? On gun control, and I see there's a lot more in this question. All right. So here's the point. The point is, maybe we could come and say dina d'malchusa dina is more about the land, because it's about kinyan, and they don't own our money, right? There is a shita in the Rishonim, but could be it's about living in their property. It's living in their land. Maybe. But what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get down to— No, I'm just saying, I'm asking. No, of course dina d'malchusa is money. It's all money. The question is why. If you're going to learn the sevara is that they own, it's about they being owning something. Yeah, they don't own my money. They might own my land, they might own the streets, but they don't own my money. And yet we find that it applies to all cases of money, dina d'malchusa, maybe more relevant than any other issue. It's more money, money. It's all the cases about money. So I picked—found a Rabbeinu Yonah. Rabbeinu Yonah says another sevara. This is in Bava Basra, daf ... amud beis, that dina d'malchusa is hefker beis din hefker, hefker malchusa hefker. They can be mafkir. They have the right to take from you, just like a beis din has the right to be mafkir, so they have rights on your money. You see, Rabbeinu Yonah is addressing money. We're going to make a one-minute chazara on all of this, because it's important to see it from all the different angles of how the Rishonim fatach dina d'malchusa dina. One thing you got to walk away with, there is a din called dina malchusa dina, and you'll be surprised how many different factions of people will say, ... It's not machlokes Rishonim if that's what it is. I mean, you know, say Shmuel gave us a beautiful shiur for today. You know what he did? He said a halacha and didn't tell us why, which gives us all the open road, so to speak, to say and to learn that we don't know what Shmuel's halacha is. Maybe. I don't know. I never spoke to Rabbeinu Yonah. How do I know? Maybe. L'choira it's because there's halacha of beis din, right? ... It's a din of beis din.

That's a bezdindik halacha. Rabosai, it's a big topic. And again, what I could do for you is two things. I could give you that you should have a broader scope of understanding what it is, and later you'll see how practical cases in our daily lives. It's so interesting, okay? And I do know that—what time does the shiur end? When I'm done. Okay. I want to know what the din of the malchusa dina about the time of the shiur is, okay? Now, Rabbeinu Yonah, like I said, says that it has to do with hefker beis din hefker. Many say it has to do with the malchus that they own, the property, the government that belongs to them, or it's about social contract, right, like we spoke from the Rashbam. There's an interesting Beis Yosef. The Beis Yosef says that it's only by kesef. Dina d'malchusa dina applies only by money. Doesn't apply by anything else. It's a Choshen Mishpat—very interesting. Beis Yosef brings a lot of the shitos. It's only by money. Why? You start hearing the Ran. It's about hefker beis din hefker, so it's more about money than it is about anything else. So it's a whole different way of looking. Is dina d'malchusa dina directly, I got to listen to my government, or dina d'malchusa dina, they have rights either on the land or on the money? There's a peledike Rashba in Yevamos nun-vav amud aleph, and the Chazon Ish goes with this. It's a very interesting Rashba, and the Chazon Ish deals with this lahalacha. The people are kani lamelech. You're owned by the government. The government owns you, so they have the right to tell you what to do. That's very interesting, huh? You got to look it up. You're going to work on it. It's a very interesting topic. So over the years— we're good, right? Over the years... It's a Rashba, Yevamos ... chazanish likutim, Choshen Mishpat, tes-zayin tes. So over the years I've asked tes-zayin tes. They own you. So I asked the question, I mean, where democracy is the hepech of the whole constitution is they don't own you. Maybe communism. Capitalism. So you know that I've worked on this for years, and I came up with a shtikel of mahalach, rabosai, and I think it's glatt. There's an interesting Rosh Nedarim, perek hei, os yud aleph. They could expel you. That's called they have rights over you, and I think that's what it means. It doesn't mean they own you. They own you legally to tell you what to do; they could tell you to leave. You like that. It's a good svara. Now we're going to go into what immigration and then the border and the—this you'll go home and deal with it as a social project, a social science project later. But you see, is it about the money? So let's see a klara, rabosai, before we get into the examples l'maaseh. You ready? Yeah, rabosai? Din malchusa dina. Yes. Don't play around. That big deal. I went to poskim and then they went, ... Din malchusa. Meheich teisa? You know what that meheich teisa really is? Either because they don't know the sugya, or meheich teisa is because it's not clear what it refers to. Ambiguous. So let's say either the pshat is because din malchusa dina, you accept it. Din malchusa dina is the courts. What about if it's not in the court? What about it's rules that have nothing to do with court? Huh? Maybe then there's no din malchusa dina. Maybe din malchusa dina means that the melech has the right. Do we have a melech today? Is dina d'malchusa dina means that they own the karka? Is dina d'malchusa dina that they own the—do they own you? It's not clear what the dina d'malchusa dina is, and Shmuel just left it without an explanation. Okay, so let me give you a few examples that have come up over the years, interesting examples. Somebody called me with a shayla. He passed a stop sign. The cop, listen, you passed the stop sign. He wants to give him a ticket. The guy's begging, please don't give me the ticket, points to my parents and blah blah blah, blah blah. Okay, so the cop tells him, just plead not guilty. Say, I started writing the ticket, plead not guilty. And once you go plead not guilty, you go in front of the judge. If you say, maybe I won't show up, I'll be drunk that—no, he didn't tell him that. Whatever, whatever, youייסט a ticket, a traffic ticket, all right? Maybe you won't get the points off. Could you plead not guilty if you're guilty? But you are guilty. How can you plead not guilty? That's trying to get away with it. If the dina d'malchusa dina is, you're not allowed to do this traffic violation, and you got caught doing it. And his other shayla, which I was even surprised about, is it emes? Is it shayla? Ooh, I go, boy, is I גוטע bachur from my yeshiva. Very good, very, very proud. You're saying good, you're saying good. So let me—

Let me start by telling you that, listen, I knew this guy, he's going to get it from his parents. I knew this. I knew what was going to happen. So I had to find some kind of a... So I said to him, listen, I love that you had such a havah amina, at least, to be emes, but it has to do with the system. They don't care if you don't get... If on a technicality they let you off, they'll let you off. So pleading not guilty doesn't mean I'm not guilty. I'm not guilty. I want a case. I want to go in front of a judge. That's all it means. It doesn't... No, you're not... The halacha, you have to be very careful, yeah? When you plead not guilty, that's what you were saying. No, that's not the svara you were saying. When you plead not guilty, you're saying, I'm not guilty. You're saying, I want to see if I can get... I want a hearing. That's it. Nishma... yeah. You don't do that? Okay. L'hais da'isa. You see, now it's wonder why you're sitting next to me. I couldn't figure out why is this... sitting next to me. Yes! I agree with you. I can't tell you I haven't done it in the past. All right, listen, stop doing stuff like that. You tell the truth, you tell the truth. I don't know. My rebbe, Rav Pam, probably would have said, Yeah, I did it wrong. Now, to call up, there's something called hafkas halvaah, and we're going to talk about that. That's a big part of this sugya, which we'll get to later. ... Shabbos, he's the... But you're not backtracking. You're saying saying not guilty doesn't mean that you're not guilty. Yeah. You ask for a hearing, and if in the legalities he wrote the wrong date, he said that's the law, that you're not chayav. That's it. Very good, sehr gut. Hold on, but if you know—I know, but let's say you know for sure you're guilty. You're right. You weren't proven in the court, but you know for sure. It's water, it's water. Okay, because we're just getting into it. Okay, now. All right, here's another shaila. Good, good, good. Sick days. Vacation days. It's legal, right? So, vacation days. It's rule, dina d'medina, huh? Very soon everyone is going to have ten vacation days no matter what you do. Oh, I thought ten work days. I thought the rule was going to be—I thought soon they're going to have that ten days a year you got to work. Yeah, okay. Okay, al kol panim, vacation days, I don't want to give it, and the guy is maskim b'di'eved, b'karcho. So if it's a guy, he's not going to be maskim, I'll take you to court. Am I mechuyiv to give you vacation days? Din d'malchusa dina. Okay. So again, I asked Reb Shlomo Miller this. He was in my shul, so right, I was zocheh, Punkt this Shabbos he was there, and he was there for a whole Shabbos, so I asked him every one. I just kept on saying, Rebbe, why do you... He told me, first of all, vacation—see, we give Yom Tov, get the Yom Tov. So that's it. That's your vacation days. It's not so relevant. Here's a better question: can I give less than minimum wage? Thank you. So the truth is, what's the shaila? Let me tell you. The question is, is there a din d'malchusa dina in a private transaction between two people? So we found in the case of the shtaros. Right? With the kinyanim, the karka, that they hold you need a shtar, it doesn't work. Yeah, but the question is, so it doesn't work. It's not a question of it's asur. The Gemara never really said over there asur or not asur. It says it doesn't work. It's not a kinyan. You could go and claim it's not a kinyan because you didn't have the legal papers behind it. Is it asur? It's business. I'm allowed to accept, he accepted, I accepted. Yes. Yeah. That's exactly what we're talking about. We're talking about, that's Rav Kossel Vok comes in. Rabbi is loaded stuff. Yes, yes. I hope Rav Miller helped you out a little bit, a little bit. More on the machmir side of this, but all right, yeah. I'm getting excited. Oh yeah, maybe not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're saying eiva, shalom, that's what you mean, that part? So maybe they won't find out about it. Right, but they won't. That's right. But maybe they won't find out about it. I mean, how would they find out about it, huh? So that's the question. What is, again, every case I'm going to give you, you're going to tackle it with all the information.

What is dina d'malchusa dina, and what is, how far does it rule every activity and action that I do in the country that I'm in? Is business between two Yidden included? Chazon Ish, hold no. Chazon Ish says no. Maybe between Yidden and goyim, whole different topic maybe. But between two Yidden, private business, says the Chazon Ish, it's not nogea. I don't want to make business. That's what it seems from the Gemara, that he could come and claim dina d'malchusa dina. Now I want to discuss further. Let me tell you something. There's a lot more layers to this topic that I will give you. I will uncover. Let's talk about, for example, like I said, paying cash in the store, right? So let me tell you something called hafkaas halvaah. Hafkaas halvaah means you're not allowed to steal from a guy. Yes, you're not allowed to steal from a guy, and nobody holds you're allowed to steal from a guy. It's not true. There's no such thing. Toyeh akum maybe, if he makes a mistake, you keep it. Halacha tells you not to keep it. You'll never see bracha. The sma brings down no one ever saw bracha from toyeh, and then there's kiddush Hashem to return it. But there's something called hafkaas halvaah. If I don't directly steal, I just avoid not paying what I have to pay, the Gemara in Bava Kama there says hafkaas halvaah is mutar. Hafkaas halvaah is mutar. I'm not telling you it's a good thing, it's a nice thing, it's not a gezeilah. So many learn that the not paying in a tax on a store is called hafkaas halvaah. What does that mean? He's moneying. He's tovea. The government's being tovea something, and I just ignore it. It's a chov. It's a chov. It's a chov. He's not paying the chov. Now again, I'm not telling you to do this. Please don't walk out and say, Rabbi, I didn't say anything, okay? I'm so far just giving you the whole background information. You want to come to me privately, I'll tell you what I think or what I don't think. But this is the secret. Ingredient in the sugya, and that's called hafkas halvaah. Yes. That's right. Yes. That's a perfect example. Did I tell you to be hafkas halvaah? I told you not. I didn't tell you to do it. You should be the Chofetz Chaim, zocher tzaddik livrachah, the Chofetz Chaim. Please, I'm telling you to do it. All right, you guys got me at a good moment. I want to tell you a good story, a good maaseh. I thought the whole thing was one shein maaseh about taxes. Okay, so listen to a maaseh. I have a letter from my zeide, Reb Shmuel Dovid Valkin. A guy asked him about a certain business. It was a little bit of a shrewd... My zeide writes to him, Tamu ani alecha. Shneineinu, both of us, yashavnu etzel haChofetz Chaim. We were both in Radin, and you saw the Rebbe, and you heard from the Rebbe. You asked me if you could do a shady business. You don't remember the stamp story, that he went and he ripped up the stamp. What am I trying to tell you? If you know the story of the Chofetz Chaim, yes, you should not be doing anything I said here today. You should say, I'll pay and I'll give and I'll do. You're right, but we're not living in the world of the Chofetz Chaim. We wish, we wish. It's definitely an ideal to get to. The question is basic: halacha, mutar, asur. And there's a sugya called hafkas halvaah, and it applies to a lot of, with the taxes and so on and so forth. It's enough said on this part of the topic. Copy. Where does it say in the sheet that it's a free-for-all? I'm sorry, I'm looking at the topic here. I saw dina d'malchusa dina. There's rules here. Okay, it's not free-for-all. I don't know what he's talking about. What should I tell you? The world of the Chofetz Chaim, halavai. Okay, Reb David, for you I would believe it. If you would come and tell me that you would do this, on you I believe. Let's move on. Copyright laws. That's the story. The story was it came to him. I heard that it came to him. The guy returned the sefarim.

That's what I heard from Isaiah. The guy returned the sefarim; there was no stamp on it. So he was sending it. It wasn't even pshat he sent to save; the guy was sending it back. But the Chofetz Chaim felt that it was sending it for him. Made a mistake, yeah. That's the way, that's the way. That's what I'm telling you, something. All right, whatever. Okay, let's move on, okay? As they say in Yiddish, tzi a zoy un tzi a zoy, halavai we should be the Chofetz Chaim. No matter what that story is, they don't say it about me and you, or about you; they don't say it about me. Now, let's talk about dina d'malchusa against a mitzvah. Of course not, right? For example, if the malchus tells me no milah, no mitzitzah, that's klar in Tashbatz, chelek aleph, siman kuf nun ches. They can't override. And why is it even a discussion? Because if dina d'malchusa dina is a raisa, so that's even why it's somewhat of a discussion when they have dina d'malchusa against mitzvahs, against things, rules, no mitzitzah. Okay, now here's an interesting shaila that the Pischei Teshuva and Yoreh Deah... The rule in general, I understand what you want, but the rule in general is they can't dictate mitzvahs. But let me tell you where it's an interesting shaila. You know, pidyon haben, we all know we look for the coins. What happens if you don't have the coin? You could definitely pay money. Why are we paying money? Remember the Rambam says it works on dina d'malchusa dina, especially today, yeah, the dollar. But it's not backed by anything. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. It's not backed by anything, huh? So here's the shaila: could I use dina d'malchusa dina that it's money? You mean to use dina d'malchusa for your positive, for your positive mitzvahs. So there's an interesting Pischei Teshuva, and he says, could be you shouldn't use dollar bills for pidyon haben. Now you're starting to see a dina malchusa dina. Okay, so then it's shavah kesef, maybe. Okay. Copyright laws, b'kitzur. I don't want to go into a whole arichus of copyright laws, but there is a Beis Yitzchok that says it's based on dina d'malchusa dina. You look on the back in the sefarim, they say according to the rights of ... copyright. So it's a Beis Yitzchok, okay? Yoreh Deah, siman reish ayin hei. Siman reish ayin hei, Beis Yitzchok. The nafka mina would be very simple. If you learn copyright is about stealing from the other guy, so it's even a prutah. It's even one penny, which means even a syllable of a song, if he's makpid, he's makpid, right? A small line from a sefer, if he's makpid, he's makpid. The question is, it's not really halachah. It's very hard to understand that there's kinyanim and there's gezeilah. So you say it's only what the copyright laws are. Whatever according to the law is asur, that would be asur. So again, you see a very big nafka mina. If it's copyright has to do with dina d'malchusa dina, then it's only according to what the law forbids. All right, let's talk about, as they say, tzedeksdike laws. Recycling. Recycling laws. Am I mechuyav to recycle? They want it, they tell me it's laws, I get a ticket for it, I think, right? So, am I mechuyav to recycle? Anybody ever thought about that? What? No, I know I can get away with it. Am I mechuyiv to recycle? Let me discuss with you recycling in a few minutes, but I want to talk how this could be very interesting. Wills, for example. A secular will is not according to Torah law. Yes, what is it? Because I have, unfortunately, sometimes I—it's early in the morning and I... You know what they call that? Cost of doing business. The what? I'll get caught once in a while, but it's worth not recycling. Yeah, but the question maybe it's asur to do because it's dina malchusa. All right. So let's talk about an interesting thing: the secular wills. I don't know if you know that in the Torah, bechor gets pishnayim. A girl is not a yoresh. So what happens if you put and you make a secular will and you want it that it should be according to the will that you make? So we spoke that, lichora, there's a Rama, and the Chazon Ish follows this. Between two Yidden, there is no dina d'malchusa dina. How does this apply between me and my child? So lichora, there's no dina d'malchusa dina. So the Achiezer—it's a teshuva from Moshe, but it's really, it was before him, the Achiezer—mitzvah l'kayem divrei hameis. So you got to put that into the equation. There's a mitzvah l'kayem divrei hameis. If somebody signs a secular will...

So it could be binding because of mitzvah l'kayem divrei hameis, even if it's k'neged the halacha. That's the question. That's the whole question. Dina malchusa dina, legal document, but it's shelo kahalacha. But mitzvah l'kayem divrei hameis. And I'm not going to get in more than that. It's a big topic. It's a teshuva from the Rosh Yeshiva. They need a license. Are you allowed to do real estate without a license? I mean, they definitely have the rights in the commerce. They have the right to put rules. So l'choira it'd be aser. I don't know. To pose yourself as a broker, you're not a broker. No, they do it. I mean, people do it, whether they work as a broker. Are you allowed to do it if you don't have a license? Legally, you're not allowed to. Makes sense that it's dina malchusa, you shouldn't be allowed to do it. Now let's go back to the recycling, okay? You know, the oldest thing was when we were kids, the jaywalking. All right? The jaywalking. They hold it's aser, and it's still on the books, I think. Right? Still on the books, the jaywalking. But you don't get a ticket for it. So let's talk about it. Are you allowed to speed? Are you allowed to speed? There's nobody on the road. Are you allowed to speed? Now, if you're somebody else on the road, and you're also speeding in a way that you're putting yourself in danger, you're a rasha and a rodef, so remember that. I didn't say you're allowed to overly speed, but you're allowed to go over the speed limit. So Rav Sheinberg, zatzal, it's a famous psak from Rav Sheinberg, and he says that they only ticket, I think, up to ten—usually ten miles. So till ten miles you're allowed to go, because they don't ticket that. Fifty-five, they don't ticket till sixty-five. Sixty-five, you're not allowed to go, but only because they ticket it. That's where the enforcing comes in. All right? So here's really my shayla. When they tell you fifty-five, it's really because they want that you should— Sixty-five, but if you can tell you sixty-five, you go seventy-five. So they tell you fifty-five. Well, maybe even fifty-five is aser. If they want, give you a ticket for a mile more, they can do it too if they want. But they says normally, there's no... Okay, so this becomes a shaila when they enforce or when they don't. I'll give you a good example. Are you allowed to build a sukkah in the front, on government, in the street? You're not allowed to, but they don't say anything. They give you a week to take it down. Right. They give you a week to—exactly. Wink, wink, you have a week to take, especially if you're in Williamsburg, right? That's the point. The point is, is there a problem of dina d'malchusa dina? You're not allowed to do it. You know, you don't even realize that in Jackson, near Lakewood, yeah, you're not allowed to have a sukkah in your backyard. Zoning laws. And it was a big shaila, what do you do? Wow, huh? Huh? Now you're starting to understand, huh? Dina d'malchusa dina. Maybe I should find a place to put up my sukkah on my porch, huh? So one thing I can tell you, I don't think they enforce. I don't think they're going to come in and stop you. So then again, it has to do with will they enforce it or won't they enforce. All right. Are you allowed to claim bankruptcy? It's an old shaila. Right, it's like the cop who told you, Go plead not guilty, you won't get points. That's what I'm trying to tell you. I'm just bringing up how you see this is a relevant shaila if you take it serious, dina d'malchusa dina. Now, are you allowed to claim—let's go fast, fast, fast, fast—are you allowed to claim bankruptcy? Well, halavai you should never have to. You should all be zoche, give him a bracha already while we're at it. Okay. Now, I do want to tell you there's something called a sidur l'baal chov. People don't know this. It's a Choshen Mishpat siman tzadi zayin, that if a guy can't pay, we make a repayment plan. There is something called a payment plan that you can pay it over a certain amount of years. It's called sidur l'baal chov. But you're not patur. You're not that you don't have to pay it ever. So the question is bankruptcy. You say, I don't pay, I don't have to pay, I don't have it, goodbye, good luck. So, Rav Moshe's, a very famous teshuva, says you're allowed to claim bankruptcy, that even though in halacha you owe the money to the guy, and we know that there's no din of malchusa k'neged halacha, the Torah, but here there's halacha. Why? Because dina d'malchusa in business. There's a concept of dina d'malchusa commerce, either because you accept to do business in the land as the business rules, or l'maaseh they have some kind of kinyan. Even the creditor, even the creditor. Sir, you're not happy with the psak. What is? Talk to me. It's pashut. It depends on what side you're on. It's very pashut when you're the guy claiming bankruptcy, this guy. The creditor. What are you saying? You're saying the creditor accepts when he went— That's a chiddush. I know, it's open.

It was a big tumult for many years. Okay, let's move on. Price regulations. That's what ... two Yidden. No, I'm talking about the two Yidden. Two guys. Of course, there are rules, there are rules. ... two Yidden claim bankruptcy. That's the shaila. Halavai it should never happen. Price regulations, price regulations. The government tells me I can only sell this for a certain amount. Is there such things still today, or does it really not apply? It doesn't apply so much? Okay. All right, let's talk about ... late payment, late payment. There's a clause. There's something called a late payment clause, okay? So you signed in the contract. Now let me tell you a big rule. A lot of times you're going to scream, Halachos, ... go to Din Torah, read the fine print of what you signed. Remember that. That's a lot. A lot of times you're going to call my ... this halacha and this, and screaming, yelling. Rabbi, you signed things. When you sign certain things. So the question is, late payment, I think is in the contract. Some of them have it in the contract. Okay, what happens if it's not in the contract? So there's an interesting Chazon Ish, those in the Likutim. So Chazon Ish says between two Yidden, it's not binding. So if they're going to come and claim there's a late clause, this, that, and I'm sorry, Din d'malchusa dina does not apply between two Yidden. Okay. You know, let me tell you, when you find something, you need to return it. Hashavas aveidah. What happens if it's in a goyishe neighborhood? You're not mechuyav to. But the law is that you have to. What do you mean? The laws you have, it doesn't make a difference. American law, you have to return. What do you mean? There's laws. You're fine, you have to return. Right. Yes, okay, but if you get caught, they can be enforced. What do you mean? It's not enforced because they can't catch you. It's not that they don't care. How about you found it, it's a yi'ush, and it's after yi'ush. It's after yi'ush. Lahalacha it's yours. Lahalacha it's yours, yeah? In a case where halacha it's yours because it was yi'ush, you d'maisa. But whatever it is, you got it all. It's all there. Let's say there was, let's say yi'ush, yi'ush, but in America you still have to return it. Okay, so let me tell you an interesting thing. Before you get to your story, you return it to the police, guess what's going to happen? They're going to enjoy it. That could be somewhat of a heter not to return. If you know that it's going to get back to the guy who lost it, then ein hachi nami. But if you return it, they don't know who it is. You know where it's going? Halavai it's going into the back over there where the police, and in a box somewhere, okay? They're never going to find the guy and it's never going to return it. What do you mean, by a guy? What do you mean? And if there is a name, of course you have to return. The laws of the land, you have to return it. What do you mean? Some guy leaves something in your, what you call it, in your taxi, of course you have to return it. What do you mean? Okay, let's talk about vaccination. And let's not talk about that. I don't want to get involved, but I could just tell you that a big part of that sugya is— No? Dina, the malchusa dina. Tell you, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to get vaccinated into talking about vaccination. All I can tell you is a good svara that you need to know. You know, they always say that they can't force me, you hear? Why? Because of pikuach nefesh, right? And tomim tihyeh im Hashem Elokecha. That's their big, yeah. I don't have to vaccinate. I'll say, Tomim tihyeh im Hashem Elokecha, and Hashem will protect me. Maybe do the other way around. Maybe take the vaccination, and Hashem will protect you from that. How do you know which side the... I'm not saying it. Please don't get me involved in this. B'kol panim, I just want to tell you that dina d'malchusa dina is very relevant. Final, last halacha, 10:15, that was the cutoff time. I learned over the years how to do it exact, all right? Rabosai, let me give you a story, all right? You want to say one story? No, no, your story before my story. Go, go, go, go, go. Rabbi, here was he was on a train with his son. They lost something. He went to this special place where you get it, to pick it up, and while he was there, he saw they had a small Sefer Torah that was there in the lost and found. Lost and found. So somehow he went, he figured out...

Because, remember, he bought it, and he held it for many, many, many, many years, and he wouldn't even use it. And then, and then one time, he sold it to this son about a guy who lost on a train, and they found the guy, and they gave it back to him. Beautiful. Let me just end with the following, because, like I said, I want to keep to the 10:15 cutoff point. Maaseh shehayah. When we got married originally, many, many years ago, we lived in a yeshiva apartment. I don't want to tell you, it happened to be in Queens, in a good neighborhood in Queens, in Kew Garden. Mais gelor. We had a lot, a lot of hachnasas orchim. We had a lot of unwanted guests, all right? Extermination and extermination. Now, who pays for that extermination? Who has to? Is it the landlord or the person, the guy who is living there? So tell me, the din of the malchusa dina is? That's right. Wow, everybody knows. Anybody who has one of these apartments knows, okay? Baruch Hashem Aaron, you don't know anymore. Aaron, Baruch Hashem, you don't know anymore. But you forgot. That's the real story. You forgot, okay? So let me just tell you that I was by Reb Chatzkel Roth at the time, and there was such a big vikuach, a landlord, metaltelin, metzchtzah harga, even the maisim themselves didn't kill each other so much. It was so a maaseh mita maaseh. It was maaseh over maaseh, and who has to pay and how much, and it was a lot of money, all right? And they were both Yidden, the tenant usually is also a Yid, okay? Kitzur, so the guy came and claimed, dina d'malchusa dina, you got to pay for it. He came back and he said, That's what your rav said. I went to my rav. You know, today there's somebody called my rav, yeah? My rav said that I'm not mechuyiv to pay. So I said, Well, I'm mechuyiv, nishma chiyuv, nishma chiyuv. I met this rav, and I said to him, Tell me, did you really say I'm not mechuyiv? The owner, not mechuyiv? Did you say it? He says, I go, Is that yes or no? I wasn't sure what that was exactly. Listen what he talks: unechum b'skazuk vus. And if I did say it, it's a now, okay, which means he learned over the years to plead the fifth, all right? So I tell him, What do you mean? But there's dina d'malchusa dina. So he says to me, Um ver zugt? I said, Where are you living? Which country are you living in that dina d'malchusa doesn't apply to you? So he says to me, ... makas medina. There's no halacha because you were mekabel on yourself, and therefore that's part of the kabbalah. If you're mekabel on yourself not to follow in business dina d'malchusa dina, that's the rule. You mekabel, that's what you mekabel on yourself. That's what he said. I'm just telling you a story. Now, but then you have to pay for it. Now why? Let's talk a minute. If it's makas medina, you could always come and say, It's not me, it's you. We're all in this. There is such a halacha. It's not the time to details of this point. All I'm trying to bring out is that he was explaining that sometimes when you do business and it's understood that we're not going to follow dina d'malchusa dina— Meaning both of them understood that the kabbalah. So the rent wasn't being declared and it was off the books. In that situation, then you can't tell me the government says... I love you. I love you. You finished, and you're on the shiur. You've just experienced another Torah class brought to you by TorahAnytime.com.