Shabbos 3b: Rediyas HaPas, Shvus, Shinui, and Preventing a Torah Violation

Transcript

A makshulon, I don't put the knas, and therefore don't come and say pshita. It's not so pshita. What would Tosafos, it's patur. Maybe the knas applies here also. What's he learning? Even if he's learning it's not a karmelis anyway, right? It's not a karmelis anyway. So therefore it's only a knas. So the knas can work both ways. Or it is a karmelis, but the whole karmelis is a knas, which is what I explained to you in Tosafos. What I explained to you in Tosafos. It's shayach in a makom patur, ... that's the second teretz. That's what he's trying to say. Or he means to say is even if it's a karmelis, since it's only a knas, we can put it anywhere we want. You see that that's the two terutzim of the Rishonim. That nicely clear what the Rishonim say. A, he's saying that you can't have a karmelis in a makom patur. B, maybe you could say that that's good for the chiddush, that we don't pasken. It could have been, but we don't pasken when it's l'maalah me'yud. Now this he says, Rabbeinu HaGadol, the Tosafos. What does Tosafos say? Yeah. שיכול להגביה ידו למעלה מעשרה ולהכניסה. אמינא, דאפילו מאדם הבהמה דאסור להכניס בשורת דרבנן בהא מודה, כיוון דליכא כרמלית חומר הדין. Notice that the Rashba uses the lashon, it's not a karmelis min hadin. And he says, what is it? It's not karmelis min hadin. And I think that's what the basic argument is. The Rashba learns it's not gomur, but it's lav lav gomur. So maybe it is a little karmelis. Once a little karmelis, we have to fit it in. Rishus hayachid, Rishus harabim. Min hadin means it doesn't. The halacha is not a real... it's not a karmelis. Min hadin this is not a karmelis. Don't worry about Tosafos. He's saying over, he's reading Tosafos. That is Tosafos. There's no ... In Tosafos, lav ta'amo ligamru. You got it? Lav ta'amo ligamru. This is the Rashba. You see this? Is this the Rashba? This is the Rashba to you? And this is Ritva quoting Tosafos, yeah? I know. And I'm showing you the lashon of Tosafos, the Rosh, the Ritva. On this he says, V'lo nahiru lo. I don't like this. Why not? D'im kein, havei ... kichucha tulu. Says the Ritva, it's a big joke. It comes out that the words that I don't like Tosafos. Why? L'maaseh miyud, you're not allowed to bring it back. You're allowed to bring it up; l'maalah miyud becomes mutar? I don't understand what he's talking about, the Ritva. L'maaseh it's mutar. What's the difference? The way the Rashba learns the case, right? The way the Rashba learns the case, l'maaseh it's mutar. What's the difference? You're right. It sounds like a big joke, but it's mutar. You know what the teretz is? Because he never learned. Hacha zeh, it's only takanah anyway. So it's takanah. You're playing, you're playing. When do we have a takanah? That's the kasha. How come none of the Rishonim ask this for a kasha? You know what the teretz is? Because, well, it's pashut. Because if you learn that it's a knas, so you can come and say, you know what, the whole idea of knas to you, so how do you play around with a knas? But according to the Rashba, it's be'emet a yad. Once it's a yad, l'maaseh it's mutar. What's the difference? L'maaseh it's mutar. The Rashba's not playing games with you. According to Rashba, it's not a game. I'm talking. Yeah. If you learn it's min hadin, no, it's mutar. It comes out you took from a karmelis to a reshus hayachid. It's not a question of joke anymore. It's a halacha. It seems very funny. Who cares? L'maaseh that's halacha. L'maaseh, you're allowed to take from a karmelis to a makom patur, and a makom patur you're allowed to bring inside. Ma she'ein kein if you learn there's never a karmelis here anyway, and the karmelis could have been on top also, and what is it? It's only sometimes we say and sometimes we don't. And even when we say it, you could play around and bring it up. No, chukah klulah. That's what the Ritva is saying. Ritva is saying if you learn that it's not a real karmelis anyway, and it's just a knas karmelis, so the whole thing is a chukah klulah. Then you stop playing games, up and down, and I pick it up and I put it down. What are you talking about? And another kasha, says the Ritva, Heichi medami lah l'kushya l'hagbih pas b'tanur? Look, come on, I'm sorry, look, come on, l'hagbih pas b'tanur. The Gemara later on says if you put pas b'tanur, are you allowed to take it out? What's the shaylah? You might come to be ofeh, and I might not come to be ofeh. Are we gozer, are we not gozer? He says, I don't know what you're talking about. D'ha leka l'meimar shema yavo lidei chiyuv chatos. There's no shema yavo lidei chiyuv chatos here. Why? Because it's davar kal hu, sheyachol l'havio מלמעלה ויחניסנו. It's very easy to pick your hand up and bring it.

So why should you come and say, yavo v'yeichim chatos? It is no comparison to our Gemara. The Gemara wants to say, mahu lirdois, are you allowed to stop and take it off not to come lidei chiyuv chatos? And the Gemara is trying to prove it here anyway. Never. You just pick up your hand and that'll be it, finished. What's the problem? Pick up your hand and that'll be finished, a makom patur, right? What's the teretz? The Gemara comes and says that from here we should prove, since we're not going to let you put your hand back in, right, or we do let you put your hand back in, let's prove it about letting you take off the bread before it becomes baked, right? That's the Gemara's question. What does the Gemara say? Now you can't be pashut from there. You could be pashut from this. It's not incomparable. Over there, you might come to real chiyuv chatos, but over here, just there's an eitzah. What's the eitzah? Pick your hand up and take it out. What's the big deal? What was bothering the Ritva? What's the teretz to the kashya? There's an eitzah tovah, very simple eitzah. You know what it is? Pick your hand up, ... and that'll be the end of the story. So what's your shaylah, mutar l'hachzir or not mutar l'hachzir? Taseh tovah, tagbiah zeh l'maalah, v'zeh yehei patur. And you don't have to answer up, say good, say good, no, say good. If you learn that there was really a karmelis over here, and you— so the point is, I understand you could, but that's a different case. You can't ask me a kasha. You can't ask me a kasha. One second, and I'll bring it back, but if I would do it b'heter, it's mutar. Yesh koach. Different case. I understand that if I took it from a karmelis and I put it to a makom patur, it's mutar. But that's not the she'eilah. The she'eilah is, can I take it from a makar and bring it in? That wasn't the she'eilah, was if I could pick my hand up. I mean, of course, what's the question? Since it's so easy not to have a chiyuv chatos, so what? And if it's easy to be roideh the pas, then it becomes mutar. I mean, what does easy have to do with anything? I understand, but you're running away from the question. You're running away from the question. The question is right now, can I bring my hand back in? So the question is, should we be poisher from this she'eilah? Tosafos says, yeah, but you could always pick your hand up. Yes, it's a different case then. It's a different story. In Hilchos Shabbos, you can't ask me what would's easy. Give it l'maaseh, this case. I stuck my hand out. I could be chayav chatas, am I allowed to bring it back in? Well, b'neichu, you could pick your hand up. I mean, what's the she'eilah? The she'eilah is, this is one case, this is another case, this is mutar, this is a gezeirah. Here too you have a gezeirah. It's an easier way to get away from the gezeirah. You know what the teretz is? The teretz is very pashut. There was never karmelis here in the first place, and l'maalah miyud is l'matah miyud is the same sugya. It's one takanah. Is there a takanah of l'matah miyud meaning? Is there a takanah called a karmelis? Is this such a thing called a karmelis? What's a gezeirah? Gezeirah is this takanah asked to bring it back. Since in the takanah will be mutar l'maalah miyud, so then you don't have the gezeirah anymore. He's not saying, b'chalal, you could always undo the situation easily. There's no legal kashya. What, he was throwing it in a cup for? Right now I didn't do it. I didn't do it l'maalah miyud, I didn't do it l'matah miyud. But since the takanah of karmelis is only a takanah anyway. And the takanah is, l'maata miyud we'll say it, l'maalah miyud we won't say it. And this he says it's a chukah klulah. And this he says, v'oid, on the tzad that it's not anywhere karmelis, he's going on tosfos, not anywhere karmelis, since only a takanah in the first place. So then you have a kasha, wait a minute. So l'maata miyud and l'maalah miyud is all the same takanah. Here we'll say it, here we don't say it. So what's the raya from here? In this case of karmelis, you see a case where you have a heter. So it's not domeh anymore to a reshus hapas. See, bishlama according to the Rashba, the Rashba gives you an eitzah in halacha, even though it's a karmelis, you have an eitzah. What can you do? You can pick your hand up and go from a karmelis to a makom patur. So then what's the kasha of the Ritva? What's the kasha? What's the kasha? I know that I can find another way out. So what? Right now, can I do this or I can't do this? According to the Ritva, it's all one takanah. It's all the same takanah. What is it? That l'maata miyud is mutar, is asur, l'maalah miyud is mutar, right? And the p'satos will be...

To l'maala miyud, to take it l'maala miyud. So then you can't compare this whole Talmudist to the takanah of the ritva. And the takanah is that there's an easy way; it's mutar to do. You know, got it? You know what I'm saying? Okay, let's do the sheets inside, and then I'll say bye-bye to you. Yeah? You with me? No, finished. Okay, in the Ritva, this is the shakla v'tarya in the Ritva. When we say karmelit, do we mean karmelit mamash, karmelit, or is it only a knas l'gabei b'reshus? If you learn it's karmelit, karmelit, that's why the Ritva answers that the first chidush is, shelo omrim karmelit l'maala miyud. What's the pshat? Mekivan that it's a real karmelit, so therefore it can't be l'maala miyud, and that's the chidush. The chidush is, when we talked about karmelit l'maala miyud, you would think it's nogea l'maala miyud. No, kamashmalan, it's a real karmelit; can't be l'maala miyud. That's teretz number one. No, because you can't be, ... karmelit. Okay, good? Yeah? Where did I see this from? From the Rashba. The Rashba said that the yad can't turn into a karmelit in a reshus hayachid. One reshus can't make it turn into another reshus. That's the way it works. Good? So far, so good? Okay. Comes along the Ritva, says a second teretz. It's only knas anyway; what does he need? No, no, no. Don't learn it's a real karmelit. Learn it's a knas. And since it's a knas, it could have been even, kamashmalan, l'maala miyud, patur. Since it's not real, I would think it could already be a olam ha'aliyon. Kamashmalan, that's the second teretz of the Ritva. Rabbeinu HaGadol, Tosafos, he says, what does Tosafos answer? Tosafos answers top, bottom. How does he learn of Tosafos? Because it's not a karmelit din. What does he mean? Different than the Rashba. The Rashba learns it's not a karmelit gamur. Remember the lashon of the Rashba? What does karmelit gamur mean? A karmelit zeh. It's a karmelit, aval lo gamur. It's like the Ritva's second girsa, the girsa, right? Mashein kein here, the Ritva's learning in Tosafos, eino karmelit. What's the lashon? B'din, you see? Once you learn it's eino karmelit b'din, understood Tosafos, Ritva, that's why you can bring it up and down and up and down. Why? It's not even a karmelit anyway, so you can play games with the karmelit, right? On this, hu sho'el, if you're playing games with a karmelit, hu chukah tlulah. Mashein according to the Rashba, it's a real karmelit; it's not a chukah tlulah. Why? You took from a karmelit to a makom patur, and from makom patur you... That's the din of karmelit. This is the Ritva. He asks the kasha. Okay, now comes along the Ritva and he says like this: v'od, on the side that it's not a real karmelit anyway, and I understand the kasha from Tosafos, why? How does it doesn't make sense? What doesn't make sense? By Tanna, it's ocha, chayav, or patur. Here you have an eitza. Yeah, I understand, but that's not the... eitza and a din, I mean, it's a different case. Of course I can take from a karmelit to a makom patur lachnis. The question is, can I take from the karmelit and bring it inside? But according to the Ritva anyway, there was never karmelit here. It's one knas called karmelit, and in the knas... We're mechalek between what, l'mata miyud and l'maalah miyud, right? In the kli itself. So then don't compare it to ridiyas hapas, where in the issur there's no eitzah. Ridiyas hapas, you put the bread in. If you leave it there, it's going to bake and be chayav chatos. Are we allowed to take it out? Only midrabbanan. Are we going to be matir you to take it out? To take it out, ridiyas hapas is a melachah, the shevut. Could you go against the derabbanan to save yourself from a de'oraisa? So the Gemara says, let's prove from here. It says the Rif, I don't see what the proof from here is. You have an easy eitzah over here. What do you want? You have an easy—it's a simple eitzah. Pick your hand up and bring it in. I'm telling you, when you have an easy eitzah, it's different case over here. So the Gemara says, shaylah. You have the whole line, the whole—it's the next sugya. Next sugya. It's a big sugya. Yes or no? Says the Rif, I don't see the next line, next sugya in the Gemara. The next five lines in the Gemara, that makes sense. Because how could you compare it? Here you have an eitzah. You have a simple eitzah. Pick your hand up and bring it out. That's what I'm telling you. That's what I'm saying. What's the Gemara talking about?

The teretz is because since here, anyway, the whole issur is knas. It's not a real kar. What's the knas? The knas is l'maata miyud and l'maala miyud. So therefore you can't bring your proof from this knas to rediyas hapas, because even in the derabbanan, even in the knas, there's a what? There's an eitzah. That's the knas itself, that there's an eitzah. If you were like the Rashba, stam eitzah and stam eitzah study. So then what do you want from the... you have a heter in halacha, so what do you want? But here this is the knas. So really you can't compare it to what? To rediyas hapas. Read me the question and tell me if everything's in there. Go, start reading the question. Fish, fish, fish. Yeah, no, no, no, fish. What does that mean? Tosafos, because he learns in Tosafos what? Not gamur, but... yeah? Why? Because since it's only one takanah, so you're making a joke out of takanah. Sometimes yes, sometimes not. That's a very nice takanah. Lefamim ken, lefamim lo. How does the Satmar Rebbe once say? He repairs by the butcher stores. At least you have the neon lights. Remember the neon lights? The neon lights used to blink. It would say, לפעמים קשה, לפעמים לא. לפעמים קשה, לפעמים לא. Same thing over here too, לפעמים... לפעמים לא. What's it? But the Rashba is moydeh. It's a halacha. Halacha is from a kabbalah. Then I understand. Chut lula. Now I know what you're talking about. And then I understand the last kasha of the Ritva. The last kasha of the Ritva is, how can you compare to dias hapas? I'm telling you, because the Ritva is saying in Tosafos that I understand it's not min hadin, therefore I ask the kasha. But maybe Tosafos could have learned it's a real kabbalah. Tosafos always learns it's a real kabbalah. Who? I'm saying Tosafos, the Rashba in the Ritva. The Rashba in Tosafos. Right. The Ritva in Tosafos learns lav min hadin. The Rashba in Tosafos learns it's not, it's gamur, meila. Different kasha. It's a whole different shaila. That's why Tosafos doesn't ask it. It doesn't bother Tosafos. Okay, go ahead. New, next. Next, next, next, next. Right. What's the second thing with dias hapas? What's the teretz? Because if you learn it's taka an eitzah and halacha, so it's not a problem. But what's your shaila? You have a different way of how to get around it somewhat. That's not the kasha. But if you learn this knas itself is a heter l'maalah miyud, so then the whole knas was never off. That's what he's trying to say. The whole knas is not even an example to dias hapas. It's not the same shvus. Over there it's a shvus, we have no eitzah. Here there's a shvus, that the shvus itself is an eitzah. It's not trying to have an eitzah how to get away from the shvus. And that's why Tosafos wasn't bothered with the kasha. Because it is kasher. Why? Why? So what? The teretz is because the Ritva was learning that that itself is the shvus. The shvus is, you got it? Are you with me? You understand what I'm talking about? A little bit? Enough to do the sheets tonight with Eliezer? Okay. Yeah, Eliezer, you do with him the sheets, right? So who does with him the sheets? If you read the Ritva clearly, you'll see it's pashut. Eliezer, yeah, you with me? I'm not. I see you're a little confused today, huh? Yeah, you with me? Good. Why? Eliezer, this question: which one, the chucha tluya? Because what's the ridiyas hapas? What's that supposed to be, ridiyas hapas? You have an eitzah, so what? You have an eitzah. I mean, you have an eitzah where you can get away from the shvus, so what? So what's the question? The question is, are you matir a shvus? I mean, what's the Ritva saying? It's not comparable. What do you want from ridiyas hapas? In the shvus, it's takke the same, and the teretz is no, even in the shvus it's not the same. Okay. Because he learns a lot of why with Tosafos, because he was learning in Tosafos that it's takke not a real kamus. Once it's not a real kamus, then all the shailos of Tosafos fall off. Let's be poshet the shaila of the Gemara from a Bibi bar Abaye. Bibi bar Abaye, he stuck a pot in a tanur. In the old days, the way they used to make the bread, to make it that way too, they stick it to the sides of the... Yeah.

Okay. Hedvik pat b'tanur. So the question is, hitiru l'redoyto, קודם שיבוא לידי חיוב חטאת, ולא התירו. אז תירוץ, ולא התירו. בנפשאד שלא התירו. Says Rashi, Hidvik pat b'tanur bShabbos bשוגג. What's that? BShabbos ubשוגג. BShabbos ubשוגג. מני, נצרך שהוא שבת קודם שתיאפה. אז הוא נזכר שזה שבת, אז מתקיים לו דדעתו פת שבותי, שהיא חכמה ואינה מלאכה. So this is shitas Rashi. Shitas Rashi is a דעתו פת is a shrut, but it's a חכמה ואינה מלאכה, because if it would be a מלאכה, it's mashma it would be a מלאכה, modeh, it would be a איסור דאורייתא. פירוש, מה שמרדים, יש לה קורא לזה מלאכה. It's a חכמה, it's a wisdom. It's professional. It's so professional it can't be called a work. Since it's... that's the whole thing. Since the דעתו פת is a חכמה, it's מפקיע, it's מפקיע the fact that it's not a מלאכה. You can't call it מלאכת שבת. This can't be called מלאכה. Yeah. We'll soon see with the knife. We're going to discuss all this. Our question of part. The act of doing it can't be called מלאכה. But that's a different question. You're saying something completely different. The דעתו פת, the עצם doing this thing can never be called מלאכת שבת, because it's not עבודה, it's not עבודה. The way it's done, it's done in such a way that it doesn't take any effort. Either you know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. Either you know or you don't know. Someone who doesn't know can never do it, and someone who does know does it in such a way that it doesn't take any effort. I explained to you very simple. The way you have to learn is the meantime, the meantime. Pashut. See, I want to go simply, and then you'll see under Rishonim how we build deeper an understanding of it. Pashut pshat, pashut pshat. When something doesn't take any effort to do, either you know how to do it or you don't know how to do it. Which means, for example, take a guy who doesn't know how to learn. The Gemara is lo rak melacha, ze melacha geruah v'kashah ad me'od. Somebody that knows how to learn, it's not a big deal, right? Tanug. Same thing over here too by a diat ha-pat. A diat ha-pat is such a thing that if you don't know, you'll not be able to do it. And if you do know, you don't do anything. It doesn't take much. It's nothing. It's not a big deal. U'meileh, shevut hi, v'eina melachah. Okay. Says Rashi further, hitiru lo et ha'issur midivreihem. So then, since it's only a shevut, the question is, ha'im hitiru et ha'issur midivreihem v'yirdena, kodem shetei'afeh, in Shabbat, v'yitchayev mishum ofeh, shehu av melachah. So the question is, should we be matir the rodeh in order it shouldn't come to an issur Torah of ofeh? Since you're now be rodeh b'Shabbat, huh? The question is, who says you do such a thing? I mean, who says you're allowed to be matir derabbanan? Since it's not melachah, it's only derabbanan anyway, right? Or sell your phones outside. Take the cellular phones to the room. Hitiru lo et ha'issur, ul'hotzia min hatanur. Oilai hitiru. Now, I have a shtikel question over here on Rashi, pshat in the Rashi. So Rashi explains, hitiru, olai hitiru, right? Olai hitiru. So why does Rashi have to explain the second side of the Gemara? I mean, what's the chiddush? Olai hitiru l'rabosa. I mean, that's pashut, no? And why does he end, lo hotzia min hatana? So why does Rashi add that? I don't know. Pashut pshat should have been, haim amutar li l'rabosa, v'loi... I mean, so I understand from the Gemara what...

Rashi has to explain now, what is it, Eloi hitiru, l'radosa. What does Rashi explain? And then he explains, what is l'radosa? L'radosa ul'hotzia min hatanur. What does Rashi add, l'hotzia min hatanur for? There's more than just a simple question in the Gemara. Avetzad of lo hitiru means what? They want matir to do what? L'radota. So Rashi says, l'radota, l'hotzia min hatanur. What does Rashi mean here? I mean, first of all, Rashi's not needed. And second of all, even if he's going to say, olo hitiru l'radota, he definitely doesn't have to add the words l'hotzia min hatanur, right? Plus, you have to do the yesod of the Rishonim, to say the deraisa. You might think, just to throw down, you know. You're going on the side that you're not allowed, not on the side that you're allowed. And what are you not allowed to do? Eloi hitiru, so once it says lo hitiru l'radota, finished. I mean, the whole thing is not needed, and even if it's needed, all you have to say is, lo hitiru l'radota, finished. I mean, not ul'hotzia min hatanur. If you want to say the side of yes, you can say, ha'im mutar l'radota l'hotzia min hatanur. Truthfully, I don't understand why, but at least it makes sense, right? But on the side of lo hitiru l'radota, for sure you don't have to stick in over here l'hotzia min hatanur, right? Yeah, you with me? Simple question, no? No. Says the Gemara, tipsheit, d'lo hitiru. The Gemara, lo kashya, v'tipsheit. The baisa, ima loi, lo tipsheit v'lo kashya. Okay. Says the Gemara, ein hachi nami, hitiru loi. Now, let's talk to the problem of rediyas hapas. What's wrong with it? So Rashi learns it's a shvus. It's a shvus? Yeah. Okay, shvus. So let's see. Let's see Tosfos. Tosfos says like this: V'af al gav d'amrinan b'Rosh Hashanah, b'teirik Yom Tov, kol meleches avodah lo sa'asu, yasu, ki ha-shofar, rediyas hapas, shechachmah hi v'eina melachah. Meaning, once we learn kol melachah lafukei something which is a chochmah, then what's he tiru? There's nothing. That it's not, that it's mutar. So then it's mutar, right? Says Tosfos: Mikol makom mid'Rabbanan asurah. Maisis asurah mid'Rabbanan, ked'amar kol kisui hakodesh, like the Gemara says in Kol Kisui HaKodesh, lo yarda b'mirda ela b'sakin, that when you take it off already, we'll see the Gemara inside, you should only do it with a knife. Shofar ... on the ... you don't stop the children from blowing. Ha, nashi maktin, but stam a woman or stam a child that doesn't have chinuch, and he doesn't have to learn how to blow shofar, so why are you stopping? It's mutar. There's nothing wrong. It's a chachma, not a melacha. ... Both don't disappear. Come, it's very easy. Don't disappear. Come. Huh? That's the question of the Gemara. That's Tosafos' question. The Gemara's question is, ha'imi tiru? Were they permitted in issur d'rabbanan in order not to come to an issur d'oraisa? Yeah, so that's the whole shaylah: should we be matir the rabbanan in order...? ... That's a lot. ... The Rishonim later on ask a further question. I mean, he won't want to do it. I mean, we could tell him from today till tomorrow, the guy's not going to want to do that. The Rishonim ask a further kasha. The Rishonim ask, the bottom line is, you could tell the guy from today till tomorrow not to do it; he's going to do it anyway. What's he going to...? He doesn't want to be over d'oraisa. What do you want from him? So the Rishonim... So that's the whole point. The point is that he's not going to do it, because the bottom line, he'll be over d'oraisa, right? He's going to be over the d'oraisa, so what, he's going to listen to you? He's not going to listen to you anyway. What's the difference?

The Rishonim ask for a kasha. Let's see. Right? What do the Rishonim say? Don't do it, right? What does the Gemara, the Rabbanan say? Don't do it. So you know what they're going to say? I'd rather not listen to you than to not listen to the Torah, right? He says a simple question. Let's say the Rabbanan say you're not allowed to do it, right? The bottom line is, you know what the guy's going to do? He's not going to listen anyway, so what's the difference? Yeah, because the guy's going to come and say, Good, so you're telling me not to listen to you and not listen to the Torah? I'm not going to listen to you on that either. How good am I not going to listen to? Okay, the Rishonim ask for a kasha. Let's see. So let's see. Tosafos brings the Gemara of Kol Kis, right? That what? That it says that you're not allowed to be rodeh b'mered ella b'sakin. So let's see that Gemara inside. Sotah d'Gemara Tav. The first case is different than our case. Because our case is a case where he was a shogeg on Shabbos. The Gemara's case is not a shogeg on Shabbos. The Gemara's case is that he was a shochach over Shabbos, which means that l'chatchila when he put it in, it was mutar. So that's one thing that the Rishonim point out. Our case, he put it on Shabbos b'shogeg. This is a case where it was shachach. And the Rishonim discuss why do we need that the Gemara says shachach; would it not apply truthfully the same thing by shogeg, right? After all, it's the same Gemara, right? Tosafos compares this sugya to the Gemara over there, which means that Tosafos is learning that this is that Gemara, right? That's the rediyah, that's the sugya. Tosafos is saying, how do I know this is d'rabbanan? He quotes me that Gemara. So this Gemara comes from here, right? From the Gemara of Kuf Yud Zayin. But I'll tell you, Rishonim point out that the truth is many differences in that Gemara to our Gemara. The first difference is over there it's shachach on Erev Shabbos, and here's the case of shogeg on Shabbos. Yes. That's our Gemara. This is shachach Erev Shabbos. Why can't the Gemara give me a case of shogeg on Shabbos? Yeah, but he left it there. Shachach, he left it there. Okay. Kedei Shabbos. Matzilin mazon shal shalosh seudos. The halacha is you're allowed to save mazon, food, for three seudos. You need food on Shabbos, so matzilin mazon shalosh seudos. You're allowed to save food for three seudos. You need now food, right? It's going to bake. So what we do is we tell you, take out three seudos' worth. Be right. Hagam atzul leradot b'Shabbat. What you do is take out three. Now, the question is going to be, man nafshach, if it's mutar, it's going to be mutar legamrei. And if it—what's your question? I'm in Kuf Yud Zayin. I'm learning to the Gemara Kuf Yud Zayin, Kuf Yud Zayin amud bet. Huh? So what are you matzilin? Matzilin, you say, mazon gimel seudos. That's the Gemara. What you do is you save food for three seudos. Now the problem is, you see from that Gemara that there's a special heter of hatzalah, right? Which means, again, it's different than our sugya, because our sugya is a question of knas. This sugya is a sugya question of you need food for Shabbos. Again, is that the reason that the sugyas don't compare? Tosafos says not. Tosafos says it's the same sugya, right? Again, further, the omer la'acheirim, says the Gemara, and you tell others also, bo'u v'hitzilu, come and save too. U'keshehu rodeh, and also when he is rodeh, lo yirdeh b'min dav, ela b'sakin. Now, this is an interesting Gemara. Why? Because be'etzem our sugya never discussed shinui or not shinui, right? Our Gemara wants to know, lirdot or lo lirdot. Again, let's see carefully. So when the Gemara comes along and says, ha'im mutar leradot b'Shabbat...

The Gemara's question was only in the context of what? Shinui. But you have to do it with a shinui. You have to do it b'meizid u'levsakeh v'loi b'meizid. On this he asks the question, Eini, v'hatanya, Rabbi Shmuel, loisafek kol melachah, yatza kishefer, yatza pashi chachmei melachah. The question, it's not a melachah anyway. On this Gemara answers, kama d'efshar lishnuyei, meshaninan. Whatever it is, you still want to do a shinui, right? As much as you can be meshaneh, you're trying to make a shinui. So now, l'choira the shailah is like this: Why are we trying to make a shinui? We're trying to make a shinui in the d'rabbanan. Trying to make a shinui in the d'rabbanan. אי למעשה, we're only being matir it for mazon shalosh seudos, which means we're not even matir it l'chatchilah. So the Gemara, you see two things: A, you have to have a seibah, you have to have a reason to be matir, a special din hatzalah, and B, also it has to be done with a shinui. So that's this Tosafos. Tosafos compares the two Gemaras. Come along the Rishonim. Rif. Come, let's take the Rif. Rif. קודם שיעבור ... הסכילה, הא מילתא, דמקשו בה רבנן. The Rabbanan have a kashya on this. Says the Rif, meaning the Rabbanan don't understand this. Which Rabbanan is he talking about? The Rishonim. The Rishonim have a problem here. The Rishonim have a problem with this sugya. Says the Rif, what's the problem with this sugya? Says the Rif like this: מסתברא ד... Kach miheivena melach. Ki degarfina perek, kishehakodesh, chametz, asasu, this is pas, chacham lemelach. Ela mai taima sharu hacha? Right? If not, why they matir over here? Ela mishum shelo yavo lidei sekilah. Halav hachi, yeah, mashma in our sugya that the whole heter that would be matir this rediyas hapas is only if you come lidei sekilah, right? I understand. Yeah, the Gemara says it's a meizid. The maskana Gemara is meizid. The Gemara thought beshogeg, but the Gemara's maskana is it's meizid. Says the Gemara, only should come lidei sekilah. Halav hachi, asirah. If not for this, it would be asur. Vamai? Velav melachah kaavid. Again. Why are we being matir this rediyas hapas, right? Because it comes lidei sekilah, right? Means he did it bemeizid. This rediyas hapas, says the Gemara, what are we afraid of? That if we're not going to be matir it, what's going to happen? You'll be chayav sekilah, right? It's not a melachah anyway. What are you doing? You didn't do anything. Yeah, the melachah is hafkir. Why is it halachah? Why is it halachah? You're going to stay there? Come to an issur, right? So then it would be aser. What is the Gemara? The Gemara wants to say, are we matir it? Are we matir it? In what it should come with the issur skila. L'maaseh there's nothing to be matir; it's not aser. No, but mid'rabbanan it's aser. So that's what he wants to say. Tosafos is learning it's mid'rabbanan, but not all the Rishonim learn it's mid'rabbanan. So this is what he wants to say: U'piruku bah kami piruki, you hear? And the Gemara gives many answers. Vadai kaban. U'mishum hachi lo kasvinan lehu. And Rishonim don't give many answers, but l'maaseh, since they're not meduyak, mishum hachi lo kasvinan lehu. Therefore I'm not going to write it. Aval anan hachi mistaber lan b'piruka. The haikusha. This is what I think the pshat in the question is. And af al gav d'yesh pas b'taan hachachamim v'ein melacha, lo yasaru laRabbanan ela heicha d'shachach pas b'tanur l'kavod haYom, d'matzil mimenu mazon shalosh seudos l'Shabbos, mishum k'vod haShabbos. Afilu hachi...

Loy l'shni ketani l'kaman, lo yeda b'meizid ela b'shogeg. Aval rediyah shelo l'shul d'Shabbos, lo sharu lei Rabbanan, afilu al yedei shinui. You see? The Rif is learning that that Gemara has a few chidushim in it. First of all, it's shachach. He shachach. Second of all, it's only because he has no food for Shabbos. And even then, we're only matir it al yedei shinui, sak. That's sugya, from that sugya. If not for that, he says, right? Mashru lei Rabbanan afilu al yedei shinui, aval rediyah shelo l'shul d'Shabbos, but for not l'shul d'Shabbos, lo sharu lei Rabbanan afilu al yedei shinui, even al yedei shinui. Our case, our case. Our case. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The point is, as long as it's missing any of those conditions, then it can't be mutar even al yedei shinui, right? B'rediyah d'hacha, lav l'shul d'Shabbos hi. The rediyah over here is not called l'shul d'Shabbos, v'lo chazi l'achilah, u'mishum hachi lo sharu Rabbanan, ela mishum shelo yavo lidei issur skilah. Because since it wasn't ready yet. Well, maybe because it wasn't ready yet. Rediyah patur when it's not ready at all, so. Before it gets to the nefel, before it becomes asur. Okay. So that's what you see, hatzalah. That's halachah, because you got to eat on Shabbos. We sell bad food, we let you eat it. That's what I'm saying. But this d'Rabbanan is only mishum hatzalah. Feel bad for you. Yes, and I said we felt bad. You want to eat on Shabbos, so what, you eat on Shabbos. But he wants to know why is this more important than this. מסתמא it is more important. It's an important davar Shabbos, yeah. This is, it's nothing. It's not a melacha. What's the teretz? It says the Rif, many terutzim were given. Loi nehira. I'm not going to write any of them because none of them make sense to me. And by the way, when I say many Rishonim, it is many Rishonim, unbelievable amount of Rishonim that give different terutzim. You'll see there's a Rif, there's a Ran, and there's a Remag, and a Rambam. There's unbelievable terutzim. We'll soon see, unbelievable terutzim. The Rif says, I think the pshat's like this, that if you look at that Gemara, he learned up the Gemara the way I taught it to you in the first place. You have to go step by step. Shochach is one thing, shogeg is another thing. You have to understand it's hatzalas mazel gimel seudos, not stam melachos b'Shabbos. And you have to understand it's also what? Sakanah. So in other words, the Rif uses that Gemara to show me that it's mutar l'rabos b'Shabbos. Tosafos uses that Gemara to come and say that it's asur. And the proof is, you see in the Rishonim, the Rif uses that Gemara to prove that our Gemara is not that Gemara, because over there it's a separate case. It's a case of shochach. It's a case of hatzalas mazel gimel seudos. It's a case of al yedei sakin, but it's not for mazel gimel seudos, taka asur l'rabos b'Shabbos, or whatever the t'nai. If you don't have any of the conditions, then it's all asur. Meaning like this: according to Tosafos, when we're going to be matir l'adod, on the side we're being matir l'adod b'Shabbos, will we have to do al yedei shinui? Yes. Yes. Because Tosafos is learning that Gemara is here. Tosafos says this is that Gemara, so therefore the question is like that Gemara, right? According to who is it machlokes? I know, but the question is, is it the same Gemara as here? No. We know that. That's clear. That's where the Gemara started. But the question is, where does it come from? So let's read again the Rif inside. Because shelo lavaludei l'Shabbos. Shelo lavaludei l'Shabbos. That's when you don't have a problem of lavaludei l'Shabbos. You put it in Erev Shabbos. Burning. Shabbos, I got food. Wait, wait, wait, the poor guy has no food for him. He did it Erev Shabbos. He didn't do anything. He didn't do anything wrong. The problem is he needs food for Shabbos. So mutar.

The Gemara says, we have the Rif learns that it's mutar. That Gemara teaches me that it's mutar. On the bottom, and he says like this: Aval mah shekasav haRav Alfasi, right, v'lo yadav zeh kedai lo likoslo. The Rif says there were other tirutzim, and it wasn't kedai to write them, and therefore I didn't even bother writing them. Amar haKesef, yesh bo taam kaikar. Not so pashut. Yesh bo taam kaikar. He said, no, he's saying there is, there is good. Why? V'kach hukshu l'Rishonim. This is what was bothering the Rishonim. What was bothering them? Lama amru kedei shelo yavo l'isur skilah, d'almi lav hachi loi lamasiva drabbanan. V'af al pi kein lo hitiru lataisa ela loi b'vad, aval acheirim asurim, right? Mipnei sheein omrim lo la'adam, 'Amov v'chatei b'shel shel chaveirecha,' v'lo hitiru perek kol kisui hadam bein loi bein acheirim, u'vad mesakein. Meaning like this. What is the maskana of the Gemara? The maskana of the Gemara is, the Gemara has a whole shakla v'tarya. You have to see the way the Gemara — you have one person put it in, and the other person wants to take it out. The Gemara, right? That's the case of a de'isa pach. Says the Gemara, no, we don't say, la'adam chatei b'shel shel chaveirecha. Meaning, you can't do a derabbanan to save this guy from a de'oraisa. This mashma. Why not? It's stam, that's the sugya. Why not? Why not? Because l'maaseh, I'm not machria you have a derabbanan. I'm not machria; it's your problem. When I know that some... if I see that he's doing the issur, I'm mechuyav l'hafsik. Not if I'm going to be over an issur. Ein adam chotei b'shel shel chaveirecha. It's a sugya by itself. That's the sugya, yes and no. Are you with me? Where are you? So we have a kasha. How come the Gemara there is matir loi ul'acher, which means he could say for who? For the other people, matir gimel seudos. That was the Gemara there. So he's not only allowed to say for himself. What does the Gemara say? He says for himself, or he says even for his friend. His friend needs matir gimel seudos. And for his friend, or? No, that's not what the Gemara says. The Gemara says either he says, or he says for his friend. So he doesn't say for his friend. He tells his friend. He says to him. What's the difference? Whatever. It's the same Gemara, no? Okay, so his friend, same for him. So the question is, how come ...? Yeah, good question. What's the case? No reason. What? He makes a trick. He makes a trick. Yeah, but who needs it? He needs it. Just making a trick. The way he says it, instead of saying, Do it for me, he says, ... lachem. It's for him, l'maaseh. L'maaseh it's for him. That's the case. He says to them, What do I need it for? The Gemara says they need. They don't need. That's the trick. That's the trick. He tells you go say, as if it's for you and me. So l'maaseh it's ... Okay, says the Ramban like this: ... בין לו בין לאחרים, ובלבד מספק, והיכשרו בו, ... ... המַתיר אפילו ... ... אלא שצריכו לשנות. Yeah, the Ramban says if you learn that Gemara properly, that Gemara is mashma that it's kalah heter. That's like when it gives the Gemara's lashon, says the Ramban over there. Beautiful. Kol heicha d'efshar l'sanuyei, meshaninan. As much as you can be meshaneh, which means—mutar, mutar. Do it with a shinui. You see, that's mutar. So we're saying this is different sugyos, and you cannot compare. Not only different sugyos, they're—

The ... is .... ... מוטר. .... ... רבא. .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Tafilu oichel sheridiyaso shelo l'tzorech, lo amru sholush. Shvus elah b'makom hefsed, she'ein matirin b'atleika ela b'makom shvus. Says the Ramban another answer. I l'maaseh, if it's mutar, then why are we drinking a cup of ...? I thought it's mutar. There's also shinui. It's mutar if you want shinui, okay. So why only ...? No, because that's ... You can't paint this out; you have to know one step. You have to know there's a halacha of hatzolah min haleka. We're afraid there's halacha. ... There's a whole sugya called matilin ... Shabbos. Let's just fire, right? The Chacham said that you're not allowed to take anything out to save. First of all, two things we're afraid: you might carry in the streets, you might come extinguish the fire. There's a limit of what you can save. ... No, ... says, kol kisvei hakodesh ... That's the ... Kol kisvei hakodesh. Matilin ... sudos, haroi l'adam. That's the Mishnah, right? We're matil gimel sudos. Because the person needs it. And on this Gemara, shachar pas v'kamah, that's where the Gemara comes from. Says the Ramban, there's a special sugya: are you allowed to be matir a d'leika? It's a different Gemara. Not because of redias hapas. The problem in that sugya is not redias hapas. It's a leika problem. And halacha is there's gimel seudos we're matir. The only thing is, I, l'maaseh, redias hapas is not the greatest thing to do. ... And it's been just as simple to do redias hapas. But redias hapas, there's no problem with redias hapas. There's no ... Why do we need ...? Here, kol kitri. Here, say the Mishnah: kol kitri hakodesh, matilin otam min hadleika. Here, kegon torin neviim ... l'mavui she'eino mefulash. It's a mavui that's not mefulash. It's a derabbanan; it can't be ... Not open, mishalosh ... not open. ... It's only miderabbanan. So matilin all these things. What's the problem? Kerem. So we only allow to be matir what? To take out what you need, only allow to take out what you need. Says the Gemara, what do we let you take out? Matilin mazon gimel seudos. And this is the Gemara, says the Ramban. That's the Gemara. Tircha. Finish. And the ... Ramban. Ah, let's read further. Says the Ramban further. So let's read this part. Let's read this part. He says like this: v'beinas min haGemara mashma, v'kanya tiru mibishul. Go ahead. Now, v'oid, shehaya nireh she'ein hashinui haveh ela mipnei shema yitatla. And even the din shinui there says, it's not even a din of a hefsek. It's a din of not ... That's halacha. Yeah, the whole thing is. Go to somebody and ... What? ... somebody's house. ... Yeah, that's it. Huh? Oh, you too, you too. ... The first day there is no ... This is, this is, it's a whole perek. It's a whole perek Shnayis what you're allowed to say when there's a ... The point is ...

Says the Ramban, that's ... pasul. A, we could say that shinui is only l'ma'aseh, and even after that we could eat and say that the whole psul is under d'as pasul. So Tosafos makes from that sugya, d'as pasul. The Ramban says, beautiful teretz. Watch your kashya from over there. Over there it's not even the same sugya. Over there it has nothing to do with it. Okay, continue. Right? ... Right? ... Bakol? And what's the reason? says the Ramban, no. Because a person is ba'al on his money. He, confused, he got all my money, my money, my money. That's crazy. So, ... And if we're going to commit him to do more, you know what he's going to do? He's going to extinguish the fire. ... I'm going to add strength. ... ... Now, that has to be what? L'tzorech Shabbos. ... You see clearly that you're allowed to be ... It says like this: What happens if it's ... you're allowed to put it back. How can you take it off? How can you take it off? ... What's like this: ... Right? ... but once it's already baked and finished, I can put it back in. How do you ever take it off? Why? Put it back in. See, so how do you take it off? The ... is mutar on Shabbos. That's the question, huh? And that's the kasha. He's saying, he's asking the question. Yeah, that's— no, but this whole sugya over there is not— as a matter of fact, you know what that sugya teaches me? That it's mutar. And says the Ramban, I'll add on some fuel to the fire. You know why? The Mishnah says you're allowed to put the bread back in, or keep it there, as long as it's baked already. Chamu panav. How do you take it off on Shabbos? You see, ... mutar on Shabbos. If ... for our Gemara, no? That's question over here. Who says that you're going to need ...? No, you don't need ... You can take it off. Crust— keep crust. That's not the point. That's the point. The only— once it's already mostly baked. Yeah. How do you take it off on Shabbos? How do you plan to take it off the oven on Shabbos? He said you want to take it off— no, that's four Shabbos. That's too much. You're allowed to leave it there. Four Shabbos. Doesn't make a difference. But the fact that you're allowed to take it off, ... ... has nothing to do with the baking. ... something wrong with it. It's a melacha, so it takes effort. And the Gemara says no, because it's not a melacha, it's a chacham. Whatever it is, you're allowed to do it. Fact is, you see from the Gemara you're allowed to do it. Moediker Ramban, Moediker. You'll see all the Rishonim, each one. And you know what I liked about the sugya? What I like about the sugya, that the Ritz himself tells you in advance that you'll see the Rishonim in many different teshuvos, and he doesn't like any of them. And the Ritz Hashem, someday, we're going to go through the different shitos and why nobody likes the other one's. Wow. The Moediker Ritz. The Ramban, it's beautiful. Okay, we'll still keep further. Now, V'oid shanu b'tkia shofar, right? Because tekias shofar is the same problem. What do we learn by tekia? V'shokei kedei litzloi dakka, okay? V'oid shanu b'tkios, d'shokei kedei litzloi dakka. V'kedei l'havid pas hatamur, l'sakea, b'shofar. Shma mina, d'meshabes mutar l'atzmo, shehi chachma.

What does he want? What does he want? The shayeh kedei litzpos daka, kedei l'hadbek. I don't know what this is. Shabbos mutar adayin. It's another raya. I don't know what he wants with kir shayf. I don't have the Gemara. Now, ... Rabbeinu HaGadol ... loy l'mishum shvus. Loy tiru bein b'lo l'hatzil, bein b'alma, ela b'shinui. Shabbos lo gazru b'shvus kol achiav, tzorech haShabbos. Kan hitir afilu hibig b'Shabbos, she'eino ro'uy l'achilah, afilu b'mirda, k'darko, shelo yevachaz achar chasakim. ... nitel likas. She's saying a maiseh kach. It comes out that according to the Rif — come, you with me, come, come, come — according to the Rif, would you need to ... now with ...? No. No, no. Why not? No, maybe here ... Why not? According to the way the Rif learned, Rabbeinu, according to the way the Rif learned, right, there we need, first of all, it has to be shachach. There it has to be ... and there it has to be shinui. So why the maiseh here doesn't have to be a shinui? He says it takes time. It's not k'dai. The whole problem is ... The whole problem is what? He might come to ... Don't for a night. ... This is ... This is ... No, what he meant to say is like this: if — the Rabbanan say like this — the Rif's way of learning is beautiful in the Gemara. You got to see the whole picture. Many Rishonim learn in the ... that it's ... is a raya, and the shinui that we have is because it's a ... The reason why the Rif is here, I would say, she would because it's a de'oraisa. Comes along the Rif, and the Rif wants to say no, that that sugya is a derabbanan, but a shitas in the hours, okay? And therefore he makes chilukim between the two sugyos. Says the Ramban, we don't want to bother the Rif with most of what the Rishonim are saying, because most of what the Rishonim are saying is that it's de'oraisa. And once they say it's a de'oraisa, this is a problem. Then you run into big problems, because the sugya there בכלל is not mashma it's de'oraisa. As a matter of fact, it's not even mashma that it's asur at all. The thing is, therefore we come and say shvus, meaning, you're right, it should have been mutar, and the only thing is we're going to say the Rabbanan אסרו it, and therefore that's how you learn the two. Okay, you got it? No, huh? Ramban. Ramban said, listen, if you want to know how to learn, how to learn, you've got to learn this. This is a beautiful thing. Beautiful Rishon, halacha l'maaseh, beautiful pshat, beautiful thing. Okay, I'll show you an example. In Shulchan Aruch, let me show you how Shulchan Aruch is brought down. Let me show you. Here. Why we bring in Tosafos? It's the Ramban. If it's not... the Ramban said different. The Rif himself starts off with a question, and he says, אי נמי, and he's mechalek between the two gemaras. Why does the Rif not enjoy the other Rishonim? The Rif says, I don't care what the Rishonim say. So I'm telling you, you have to understand, the other Rishonim are learning that it's de'oraisa. The other Rishonim learn that gemara it's de'oraisa, and then they try to explain the chiluk between there and here, okay? So says the Ramban that you know why the Rif says, I can't listen to the other Rishonim? Because not only is the gemara not mashma de'oraisa, it's mashma that it's even mutar l'kapchila on Shabbos. The meila, in order to answer the two sugyos, we'll have to say shvus. And then we're going to say when and where is the shvus, right? This is the Ramban and the Rif. Then the Rif, in the Baal HaMaor, that the Rif is gevaldig, and he explains the Rif why ... What time is it? I should almost put on coats already, I think, ready. Let me tell you something. If this was not Shabbos. Ein ... samuch l'chasheicha, pat l'tanur, ela k'dei sheyikru. Okay? Peirush. But we can work, right? Huh? It can always bake. Completely. The crust, the crust should be. Okay? Now, v'loi chararah ... same story. Now, v'kol sheparsa ... what's called ...

Karu paneh, it doesn't, it doesn't peel, right? It doesn't when you touch it, it doesn't, you know, when you touch dough, it starts to string. This is called the eina chutin nimshach. Now, see the pladin nikmu paneh. Okay, now, v'im nasna ... Shulchan Aruch now. What happens if he did do that? If he did it b'meizid, here, Shulchan Aruch, Shulchan Aruch now. If b'meizid, no, Shulchan Aruch, you have to go. You have to go. Five minutes, nine minutes. Im b'meizid, chamati lahalacha. Hilacha l'maaseh. Siman reish nun daled: ein nosnim samuch l'chasheicha pat לתנור, ela k'dei sheyikru. Meaning, it has to have been enough baked so it's not nechshav afui. If it's nechshav mostly baked, tashirah zeh l'Shabbos, okay? This is what the Ramban is talking about, right? So what do you see from here? It says the Ramban that you're allowed to be a little bit b'Shabbos, right? This is this halacha, okay. What happens if you're not? V'im natano samuch l'chasheicha v'lo karu paneihem, let's say not, okay. Im b'meizid, if he did it b'meizid, asur, here, ad motzaei Shabbos. That's till motzaei Shabbos. ... ad motzaei Shabbos ... If אין בו מה לאכול, he has nothing to eat, mutar lo lirdos mimenu mazon shalosh seudos. Again, that's the ... right? Me'eima ba yochlu? Mutar lo lirdos menu mazon shalosh seudos. Ve'omer la'acherim she'ein lahem ma yochlu, bo'u urdu lachem mazon shalosh seudos. U'keshehu yored, lo yered b'mazger, ela b'sakin. Okay. Says this, he says like this: Ve'omer la'acherim she'ein lahem, nir'eh d'hu atzmo asur lirdot bishvilam, af al pi chen tzrichin ligmol seudah. D'chi omrim lo l'adam chatei kedei sheyizkeh chaverecha? The klal is, you can't sin that other people lost, kedei sheyizkeh chaverecha. Ayin Shabbos daf daled amud aleph. D'amru zeh, afilu inyan l'hatil chaverim isur melachah d'oraisa. V'kavachomer b'zeh. Kavachomer over here. So according to Mishnah Berurah, could you do it for somebody else? You can't do it for somebody else, right? What was Ramban's raya? Ramban tried to prove that the emes it's mutar, right? Because if it wouldn't be mutar, then how could you say for the other people, right? The case is that they don't have. That's why if you look at the machaber, what did you tell me? Maybe they don't have, right? I told you they do have. What you're saying is that's how the machaber and that's how the Mishnah Berurah learns it up, and therefore he says, ... You can't. It's a real thing. They don't have any food. It's a real thing, that Ramban is learning that it's a trick, the whole business. It's just a trick, and therefore it's mutar anyway. They don't have food, and therefore it has to be real. You'll see in the Rishonim, you have to see the halachah l'maaseh. It's mamash every line in this machlokes Rishonim. Okay, we're going to finish this shiur because I still have another 15, 20 minutes of information to tell you. And then after they tell you the 15, 20 minutes of information, you obviously have enough work to do over Shabbos, meaning you'll have enough at least you'll be prepared for Shabbos, okay? So we have a deal, you'll prepare for Sunday, you'll come in, okay. So let me show you what I have for you over here. I want you to do the Rambam, perek chaf-beis, halachah aleph. Okay? Bring me the Rambam, perek chaf-beis. Here's what you have to do. You ready? I know, I know. Like this. You're gonna have to go like this. The Rambam sheet is that ... Again, it's how you learn Gemara. Shinui, hatzalah.

He learns, you see, the only mutter, b'diavad, because of hafsad. And only then it's ... shabbos. I ... the Rambam. That's the ... The Rambam says. The Rambam says. Okay, the Rambam and the Ritva, both learn ... Here. The Rambam. He learns the sugya is a pasuk. And then we have to understand, what do you do with the Gemara, right? What do you do? What do you do with our Gemara? Rambam in the ... learning ... No, it's ... Ritva ... Okay, so Rambam and Ritva was the ... Okay? You have to know clearly our Gemara. You have to know clearly the Tosfos, and you have to know clearly Kuf Yud-Zayin. Learn for something more. Coming knowing the Gemara, Kuf Yud-Zayin, clearly, okay? Then I want you to do the Ritva, okay? And the Ramban in Milchamos Hashem. Now, the Rambam. Who? What we just did. The ... af al pi she'eino melachah, af she'oseh chachamim shema yavoi lachtov. Zeher, shvut. If I tell you ... the word shvut, I said to you shvut means ... you know where I got it from? Now you can ask me, how do I know the Rambam calls it a shvut? No, he didn't say the word shvut here. This he says in chaf aleph. Which Rambam? Rambam ... 21. The Rambam calls ki sheifer shvut all the time. It's the same thing. I'm showing you, the Rambam calls it shvut, and the shvut is shema yavoi lachtov, shvut zeh. Then we have ... The Rach, salad on the day. You have to do the Rach salad on the day. Rach is very interesting terutzim. He says terutzim that it depends when you're being roideh. Kodem karmu paneha, l'achar karmu paneha. The Ramban, right? Because l'achar karmu paneha, there's already a pas anyway. Since there's already a pas, no rye anymore, din pas mutar. The Rach, you saw this Rach? You might read. Kivan she'einah melachah, mai lei pas l'teima. V'kiblu Rabbeiseinu, shebayah zu l'hatir loi d'patur u'mutar. The question was, ma'al ba'rediyas hapas is not pshat is mutar is asur mid'rabbanan. The Gemara's question is maybe it's mutar l'chatchilah, and on that it's ba'is lo yishuv. That's how the— The Rach is saying whenever we ask about rediyas hapas, the question of the Gemara was maybe it's mutar l'chatchilah, and therefore it's lo yishuv. V'yes omrim, ki rediyas hapas tafuyah hi chachmah v'einah melachah. When it's tafuyah, aval rediyah sheb'odi issa, kodem sheyikru paneha melachah hi. That's the raya. And he gives a raya: baking. Anybody want to become a baker here? The Rach gives you baking tips. Why? Hapas tafuyah, efshar loi l'saken, because when it's baked, what can you do with it? You can only eat it. Aval issa, efshar l'taken ela b'yadayim. So therefore, nimtza k'malash v'orech u'mesaken hu, eino melachah. V'lafikach lo hizkiru b'makom hazeh. Ha d'tanya d'Rav Shmuel, l'olam ki eina domeh zeh l'zeh klal. Says the Rach, that's why the Gemara doesn't even try to discuss chochmah v'einah melachah. Where? Is this ...? ... Rashi brings it down. Tosafos brings it down. Why does the Gemara bring it? Why does the Gemara call and say, Shmuel says it's a ...? When we discuss ..., mahu livdei b'Shabbos? Shouldn't the Gemara say, What do you mean, ...? Shouldn't the Gemara discuss it? Ein adam ... ... ... ...

That's when what? When it's baked. But that's why Rashi says, v'nizkar kodem shetafe. Why does that say that? That's the cake. Why kodem? It doesn't make sense. Meaning this, that was for different reasons. Different reasons, but the conclusion I'm saying. First of all, we're going to make a big chart of something, showing why each one does the whole of the other, on a good board. Okay, let me tell you what else you have to do. You have over here like this. There's another one, the Rav Avan, a sheet of Rav Avan. Rishonim bring that. You look it up. Rav Avan says, you know what the problem with b'di'eved? Look. Why? In Reb Elchiyu. Look. He's right, but... That's the Rav Avan. You want another sheet in the Rishonim? You know what's wrong with b'di'eved? What's the... How do you know? That's... B'di'eved is... A lot of work. It's hard. Who's taking stuff out of an oven, cleaning off the walls of an oven? Over the chol. Worst weekday. Okay, if you have it, Rav Avan, come here, stop it. Very good, very good. Look here. According to many, Rashi learns shvus. Rav Avan learns shvus. Only gezeirah. Only gezeirah shema yavo la'afuyei. There's nothing wrong with it, only shvus. That's why it's called shvus... Yeah. Ki sheifer on Shabbos, what's wrong with it? That's shvus. That's where it comes from. The whole ki sheifer, you're not allowed to blow shofar on Shabbos, is shvus. What's the shvus? If it's... maybe might come to melachah. That's the Rambam's sheetah. Shvus, Rashi, shvus, shema yavo la'afuyei. Other Rishonim learn what's the problem? Either uvdin d'chol... Either mutar, or lo. Hitbek pat b'tanur, hitiru l'rototah kodem sheyavo lidei chiyuv chatat, or lo hitiru. Would they matir, what? Would they matir l'rotot before sheyavo lidei chiyuv chatat? So the first question I asked you on the sheet is, Mahu ha'isur d'rediyat ha'pat she'asar Rabbi v'Rabbanan l'hatir? The Gemara isn't clear what's wrong with rediyat ha'pat that you want to be matir it. Katuv, rediyat ha'pat asur. Ha'im matirin et zeh? Are we going to permit it kodem sheyavo lidei chiyuv chatat? We don't know. We don't know yet. So Rashi, the Gemara has a question: Ba'i Rabbi v'Rabbanan, sheyesh lo pat shezeh davuk la'tanur, it's stuck to the tanur. The question is, are we going to permit the rediyat ha'pat, which is not allowed? In order, it should be taken off before it bakes, because once it bakes, once it bakes, what happens is you're chayav chiyuv chatat. So in order to save you from a chiyuv chatat, we'll let you do rediyat ha'pat. Yeah. We will speak about that separately. After, im yirtzeh Hashem, after we finish with dias hapat, the last part of dias hapat, we'll speak about this shaila. There's a Minchas Chinuch, and a Glei Tal, which part of bishul is asur, which is—mashma it's at the end, right? But the problem with it is it's not true in halacha, because if you put something on the fire on Shabbos that you cook after Shabbos, you're chayav. So we have to speak about it. There's a big, big Glei Tal, Minchas Chinuch, she'eilah, Rashash—it's a very famous Rashash. You know what the Rashash speaks about it? By zriah. Remember we said if you put the seeds in—there you go—in case you put the seeds in, and then you took it out before, you'd still be chayav. Machlokes. Good. So, rabosai, it's all beautiful, but this is going to be a shiur by itself. This we'll speak about, im yirtzeh Hashem, dias hapat, l'inyan bishul, when is the bishul. Now we want to discuss the dias hapat. What is dias hapat? We're permitting it, says Rabbi—maybe for what reason? We're going to permit it because of what? Because of shema yarbeh...

Says Rashi, redias hapat has to be shevut. Don't forget, afiyah, afiyah. Shkila, no? Matzui, you warn them, there'll be afiyas hapat over here, no? The guy put it in, no? He says, What's bishogeg? Good, so the Gemara is related to meizid. I'm saying whatever it is, it can. Rashi learns there it's bishogeg. The Gemara's maskana is talking about meizid, because otherwise how can you be chayav chatos bishogeg? Gemara says talking about meizid. Okay. Why redias hapat? So Rashi says it's a shevut. So the question on the first question you see is like this: Mai lo yisud deridias hapat, sherotzeh Rabbi bar Abaye latir kedei shelo yavo lidei chiyuv chatat. So see, shitah meyucheset lRan, kan bshem haRif, kuf yud-zayin amud beis, vnidma lKaman. Is it deOraisa or is it deRabbanan? And the answer is, it's deOraisa. Not how. I'm telling you the metzius. The metzius is, if you look at the Ran, shitah meyucheset lRan, that this redias hapat that Rabbi Bibi wants to be matir, right? He gives me the shitah meyucheset lRan. You have it? It's deOraisa. ... You have it? You have it? ... It's Torah. The shitah brings the Rif, the shitah lRan brings the Rif, and the Ritva, kuf yud-zayin, learn that the redias hapat will be asur mehaTorah, and Rabbi Bibi's question is going to be, let's be matir it. Let's be matir kedei shelo yavo lidei chiyuv chatat. Same case. How do you know that? That's Rashi. The Rif says different. Rashi learns redias hapat that Rabbi Bibi — it's the same Rabbi Bibi. ... Rabosai, it's too simple to even waste time on it. Redias hapat. Both are asur on Shabbos. The answer is asur b'Shabbos. Again, again. The Gemara says that Rabbi Baya had a question: should we be matir ridiyas hapat k'dei shelo yavo lidei chiyuv chatas? I'm saying, what is ridiyas hapat? What is it? Is it mutar? Is it asur? Is it d'Oraisa? Is it d'Rabbanan? And the answer is obviously it's asur from the Gemara, but we don't know if it's d'Oraisa or d'Rabbanan, right? We don't know. So Rashi learns it's smut, the Rif, which the Ran brings down, as well as the Ritva, learn it's d'Oraisa. So that's question number one: is ridiyas hapat, according to the Ran and the Rif and the— and the answer is, lefihen, d'Oraisa. Yes. Yes. We're going to speak about that. That's what we're going to speak about, obviously as the shiur progresses. So let's now— take a look, question number two. Hevanu raayah midivrei kol harishonim, mima shehikshu mimeimer d'Talmud bnei Rabbi Shmuel, sheridiyas hapat kach l'ein melachah. Mahu haraayah? Here we can bring a very big proof that Rabbi Bar Abaye was discussing what? D'Oraisa. And you know what the answer is? The Rishonim, all of them— there's not one Rishon that doesn't ask this question, starting from Tosfos: how could Rabbi Bar Abaye ask this for a question if Talmud bnei Rabbi Shmuel says it's not a melachah and we learn out from a pasuk? Now, the Rishonim's kasha is not a kasha unless Rabbi Bibi was discussing d'Oraisa, right? Because if Rabbi Bibi was discussing d'Rabbanan, so what's Talmud bnei Rabbi Shmuel? And a Chinami, there's no kushya from Talmud bnei Rabbi Shmuel. It's good. It's not a melachah, it's a pasuk, but now it's d'Rabbanan anyway. What's the difference? What's the kasha from Talmud bnei Rabbi Shmuel? Okay, explain what. What I just said? I just said like this: the Ritva and the Rishonim, Ritva, Ramb, Rif, and all these people learned the doraita. Well, I shouldn't say people; these malachim. These malachim learned that it's doraita, okay? Now, I'm telling you that pashut ha-sugya in the Rishonim has to be that way. Why? Because all the Rishonim say, but what do you do with Tanna d'bei Rabbi Yishmael that says it's a melacha, it's a chochmah, not a melacha, like it says in the pasuk, v'chol melacha lo yeiaseh. Tanna d'bei Rabbi Yishmael is not a question if you learn it's a derabbanan.

It's only a question if you learn it's asur min haTorah or di'Rabbanan. Because Torah baby Shmuel is just saying, Torah, we see it's not asur. No, it's still be'asur. Even after Torah baby Shmuel, it's still asur d'Rabbanan. Yeah, good. Torah baby Shmuel, it's a chachamocha asur, so chacham is not a melacha. He goes, it's not asur d'Rabbanan, משום... Because the Rishonim would have—Rishonim would have nothing. They're not saying anything. No? You understand? It's not a chacham melacha like it says in the pasuk. It's a pasuk. You learn from a pasuk, right? It's good, so min haTorah it's mutar. Who said not? If a baby's question is we should be matir d'oraisa, then Torah baby Shmuel says it's not a d'oraisa. But if a baby says we should be matir the Rabbanan, what does Torah baby Shmuel do with anything? Torah baby Shmuel says it's mutar min haTorah. Good. Hevanu ra'aya midivrei kol haRishonim. From all the Rishonim, mima shehikshu mihem on Torah baby Shmuel, shed'i d'Rabbanan kach mein melacha. Ma la'ra'aya? The raya is very simple, because Torah baby Shmuel is Torah min haTorah. You see in the pasuk where it says kol melacha, it's not a melacha. It could still be asur d'Rabbanan from the... right? Yeah, but what's—what's... It's—what are you bothering Rabbi... about? Like, bothering. You know what Rabbi... is looking at you? What are you bothering me for? What are you bothering? What am I saying? Anyway, the pasuk, who said not? You're right, min haTorah it's mutar. Who said not? Obviously the Rishonim will learn, seeing when the Gemara says hitiru—know the translation of hitiru is according to them, hitiru isur min haTorah. Okay. מה החילוק בין ציר הגמרא כאן, בשאלה של רבי בר אבא, לבין ציר הגמרא בקוף י״ז עמוד ב׳, בעניין מצילין מזון ג׳ סעודות? So this we learned on Friday. On Friday, Gemara says if somebody put hidbik—we're actually going to say hidbik—the Gemara uses a lashon of shachach. He forgot bread in the oven from Erev Shabbat. We let him, we permit him to take out matzilin mazon gimel seudos, right? He takes out mazon gimel seudos, and what happens? Al yedei sakin. Al yedei sakin. That's what the Gemara says, right? This is the Gemara over there. So from there we see, A, he wasn't stam allowed to take it out; it had to be done al yedei sakin. And also a certain amount. You can't just do everything. So I want to know what's the difference in case. What's the case here and what's the case over there? First of all, the—what? What is the difference in case? What's the case here and what's the case there? Oh, very simple. Our Gemara is talking about Rabbi bar Abaye, hidbik pat b'tanur b'Erev Shabbat, and over there it was shachach Erev Shabbat. That's the only one. I want you to understand that one is talking about Shabbat, and the Gemara there is talking about what? Erev Shabbat, right? I mean, that's pashut pshat, simple, right? Rashi here. So it's simple. What's the case here? Hidbik pat b'tanur when? Rashi says b'Shabbat. Yesh shemi. Katuv פה... כתוב כאן. The Gemara here about Rabbi bar Abaye, about hidbik pat b'tanur, ha'im mutar l'hasir di'at ha-pat? The Gemara שם, מה שמתירים לכאורה לעשות על ידי הטפח. Rabbi is a b'Shabbat. B'Shabbat. שם בקוף י״ז, זה תלוי מקרה של דiעת הפט, אבל שם הוא שכח את זה מערב שבת. Tomrach start before. Chametz b'Erev Shabbos, chametz b'Erev Shabbos, עכשיו הוא רוצה להוציא את זה. אז מה השאלה? מטילין ג' סעודות. They let you take out three סעודות. No? No, מדובר בשבת. ... אנחנו לא יודעים. That's what we're speaking about today. We don't know. In other words, we have two gemaras. יש שתי מקרים בגמרא. He big paskened to us, בשבת, האם מטילים אותו כדי לעבור לידי חיוב חטאת, and then we have a Gemara, שכח פת מערב שבת, כתוב שם מטילין ג' סעודות. האם זה אותו סוגיה או לא? We'll see. We don't know yet. איזה פסוק, you with me? מאיזה פסוק לומד — now this you have to do yourself right in front of me. I want to see how you do quickly homework — מאיזה פסוק לומד ומפקיע הטענה דבית שמאי קיעת שובר דיית הפת פטור, בגלל זה חכמים ולא הלכה, ומפני גירסת הגמרא שלפנינו, ומפני גירסת הרי״ף ויתר ראשונים שם. We'll go look it up. Go ahead, look at the Gemara, kuf yud-tes. Okay, so look it up.

Look, תנא baby. ... תנא baby Shmuel brings a pasuk. What's the pasuk in the Gemara? ... What is the riff bring? ... Why is the riff changing the gears of the Gemara? ... It says, ... Why is the riff changing the Gemara? ... Wait till the end of the shiur. You're almost there. You're saying good. You see, obviously he didn't like the pasuk that the Gemara brings. ... He has one issue: what's the ...? Our Gemara says, ... Here it says, ... Why do you have to go to Rosh Hashanah? Why don't you just bring the Gemara in Shabbos? Where's the sugya where he is a pas? Talmud Gemara, right? Kuf Yud Zayin. You have to Rosh Hashanah to bring me a Tanna d'Rabbi Yishmael. Tanna d'Rabbi Yishmael, shehdiat ha-pas mutar biklal. No, no, no. It's katuv bGemara, no? What pasuk? He says, I don't understand, why does Tosafos have to look in Maseches Rosh Hashanah, huh? Which she'eilah? I'm just adding to you, to she'eilah of daled. First I'm pointing out that when the Gemara says, lo sa'aseh kol melachah, the Riv changes it to kol melachos avodah lo sa'aseh. Second of all, it can't be—they're both right. The pasuk is the pasuk. Why is he changing the pasuk? Why does he bring a different pasuk? Why does one bring this pasuk and one bring this pasuk? If—why? Why change the Gemara? Yeah, the Gemara says, lo sa'aseh kol melachah. This is not a melachah. So what's the difference, kol meleches avodah and kol melachah lo sa'aseh? It's in Kuf Yud Zayin. So why find it in Maseches Rosh Hashanah, not Shabbos? That's the first question on Tosafos. Maybe, that's what I'm trying to show you. Maybe. But you have to see the Gemara Rosh Hashanah. What's the Gemara Rosh Hashanah? No? Rosh Hashanah, chof tes amud beis. Which pasuk does he bring? No, the diat ha-pas mutar. Which pasuk? Which pasuk? Beautiful. Now you see what I'm talking about? Tosafos wanted the Riv's pasuk, and that's why he brings Rosh Hashanah. I don't know, though—I mean, it's the same Tanna d'Rabbi Yishmael. Chozer, no? Maybe you read it. Unless maybe it's not, I don't know. Is it possible that there's a Tanna d'Rabbi Yishmael in one sugya and it's the same Tanna d'Rabbi Yishmael? It's the same words, the same thing, the same person, same words, same everything, but different pasuk. No, no, no, grab the nuts, grab the nuts. No, it's just—they fakert the shitos, they're changing them. It's nice. Different pasuk. In Rosh Hashanah, he brings the pasuk of, of Kol melachasah lo sa'asu, kegirsas haRif, like the girsa of the Rif. And Tosafos brings down. It's called learning. I learn. I stay up late at night and learning. That's what it's called.