Shabbos 123b: Muktzeh, the Lechem HaPanim Supports, and What Defines a Kli

Transcript

How could a מוקצה d'rabbanan push off a d'oraisa of kol avodah? And the teretz is, shev v'al taaseh, they could do it. Now the question is, even if it's d'rabbanan, but it's not a d'rabbanan anyway, because there's no d'rabbanans in the Beis HaMikdash. There's no shvus d'mikdash. That's the klal. Give a d'rabbanan didn't say that. D'rabbanan said there is no shvus. They could say shev v'al taaseh where they said it, but l'maaseh they never said it in the Beis HaMikdash, d'rabbanan. That's a klal. There's two klalim that you can't argue with. Klal number one is that avodah is d'oraisa. Klal number two is that the Rabbanan are able to be oiker d'oraisa, shev v'al taaseh. Rabbanan are able to be oiker a d'oraisa b'shev v'al taaseh. So that's klal rishon. Ha'sheni, ein shvus b'mikdash. Rabbanan never said issur in the Beis HaMikdash. That's the kasha, right? So how do you answer that? The Tosafos says sometimes, yeah. Obviously, when you look at the Ritva, you understand the background of the Tosafos. What's the answer? The answer is because certain things which are different, okay, which don't go into that rule. So from this Ritva we have a lot of yesodos. What do we have from this? Yesod number one we have is that we're talking about in a real avodah. Don't think this is shemed, like in English you call chop liver. This ain't no chop liver. This is a real thing. This is avodah in the Beis HaMikdash. See, there's kinuyim d'oraisa, okay? There's kinuyim d'oraisa, you hear? Remember I started with this? The Mishnah discusses muktzah. The Mishnah discusses doicheh Shabbos, not doicheh. There's an avodah here. So understand that chutz from the problem of muktzah, could it be doicheh an avodah? That's a separate issue now. Now that it is, the question is, how could it be the teretz is shev v'al taaseh? The chachamim are able to be oiker the shev v'al taaseh. Next. Now the question is, but I thought the rule is there is no drabbanan. True, if there would be a drabbanan, you could be oiker the shev v'al taaseh. But I thought this drabbanan never said their words in the Beis HaMikdash. And the teretz is, sometimes, yeah. What? Tosafos doesn't say what. So you said pretty good. Sometimes maybe it's more. Which explains it beautifully. Since the whole mitzvah came because of tiltul, ela mai, since tiltul people were being meikel in, chachamim said their words there. Other shvusim, they don't have to say in the Beis HaMikdash. This shvus they said in the Beis HaMikdash. Why? Because of the tiltul. Tiltul, people were being poresh. Therefore chachamim said... Not tiltul hotzaah, tiltul muktzah. If I asked you halacha l'maaseh, halacha l'maaseh, right? You know, before we do halacha l'maaseh, I want to show you a lashon of the Rach. Let's take a look at the lashon of the Rach. And I'm not going to tell you what I see in it, but I'll tell you the diyuk that I have in it. Let's take a look at the Rach. The Rach. He says like this. The last line: אמר בלעזר, קנים ומקלות... Close to the... נשתנו, ולפיכך נשתנה האיסור. Says the Rach, that's why we said issur, because that is really mutar bizman hazeh. Kanim are—what's them? —הם קנים של לחם הפנים, והם שנויים במסכת מנחות, שאסור בשבת סידורן ונטילתן מתוך לחם הפנים. He adds, very important. What's the netilasan? Netilasan מתוך לחם הפנים. I would have wanted that the Mishnah should have read, Seder ha'panim, and the tefilas stam. Notice that he's stressing, mitoch. What's the issur? The issur is the sidur and the tefillah mitoch. And I will soon show you, maybe, maybe, and then you'll see why the Rach is meduyak, that stam netilah wasn't such a big problem. The problem was, and we'll soon see, mitoch. The pshat is the sidur ha'kanim and the tefillah mitoch halecha l'maaseh. We'll soon see in the Ran, we'll soon see. It's not stam that there's a problem here of these things are muktzah. There's a special halacha here, she'asar b'Shabbos siduram v'netilasam mitoch lechem ha'panim. We'll soon see, okay? Now, if I ask you halacha l'maaseh, what would you pasken to me today? Would we make, in today's times, would we make in the Beis HaMikdash sidur ha'kanim? No. Today, if we would have a Beis HaMikdash, we would make. There's eruv. Not an eruv, not an eruv. Kodem hataras keilim. What about? The Gemara says it was nishtaris kodem hataras keilim, but today that we're matir the keilim, it's mutar. So then it should be mutar. That's what this Gemara is saying. Pasken.

The Rambam, look at your little numbers here. Here it came in Hilchos Shemitah v'Yovel, halacha yud aleph. Paskins the Rambam like this: V'loy sider hakohanim, v'loy netilasam b'derech haShabbos. Not the seder hakohanim, and not the netilah, he's not breaking nobody. What he's doing is he's paskening against the Gemara. The Gemara says that this is only kohanim shenishnis mitzvas hataras keilim. But once they came and they said all keilim hamutarim mutar, so then it's just allowed to do it b'kohanim. So how could the Rambam pasken, v'loy sider hakohanim, v'loy netilasam b'derech haShabbos? That's the kasha. That's the sugya. How could the Rambam go against the Gemara? I am b'sugya d'Shabbos kuf chaf gimmel — yeah, you with me? Come. Yeah, you with me? You with me? We're in sugya d'Shabbos kuf chaf gimmel on the beis. V'lezeh loiki, u'masis, v'loy sider hakohanim b'derech Shabbos kayma taras keilim nishnis. Hainu, kayma shetiru talpukei shalafu hefsed. V'rav dachila, d'loy lemeimar lach, lachar taras keilim nishnis, taima mai? Mishum mifushi, v'hai purta lo mehafsh. Now, if you learn later on in the Gemara, the Gemara says that Rav holds — Reb Eliezer, you rule. Tells Reb Eliezer, you rule. Even afterwards. But this is not called l'tzorech. There's no tzorech in it because it's not going to get ruined. Not a big deal. It's not a big deal if the kohanim are not there. So it's called shelo l'tzorech. Now, he says like this. Okay, v'hai mechudshei Razbasham — says Reb Akiva Eiger, if you look at the Rashba, the keivan d'loy maafish, loy mekalkel. That's how the Rashba explains the Gemara, like I just told you, that this is not meafish. Okay. Abi, k'mo yotzei l'chamo itself. Rav, the Rav is really the keshma to have to mutar michamo itself. That can be anything. Good. Let's say it's told michamo itself, right? Means there's no tzorech gufo, but it's michamo itself. Mutar. They want to take a keshma itself, so it's michamo itself. I'm מקשה. What are we talking? Seider, according to the Gemara it says, asking the Rabba. I asked. No, no, no, no, no. You asked me the she'eilah. How could you ask? But according to Abaye, it will be even better. Yeah, but because it's was, because it's a keli she'melachto l'heter, and it's not l'tzorech, but even shelo l'tzorech mutar. Keshma l'heter is mutar. Even in the haman d'amar, right? Remember, what is it? L'tzorech gufo, right? Good. It's not l'tzorech gufo, because you don't need it. It's not going to get ruined. The bread don't get ruined. You don't need this. You don't. Even better, even if you don't want to change it, it's not mutar. There's no issur. You're allowed to do it as long as I want to do it. I could do whatever I want. I could take a keshma l'heter and go, I could do whatever I want. What's the problem with it? There is no ... It doesn't need it because it can do without it. So then it's michamo itself. It can't be worse. It can't be different if I take it out michamo itself. The question is, you didn't help me anything. What are you רוצה from kibeiga? We don't pasken like Reb Eliezer. That's what Reb Kiveiger is trying to say. From Reb Eliezer, the Rambam is totally wrong. From Reb Eliezer, the Rambam is totally wrong. Ela mai, you want to say the teretz of the Gemara later. The Gemara says Rabba, even Rabba is no good. So according to Rabba... Oh, that's what he's trying to say. Ela mai, you want to say Rabba, but even Rabba is no good. Why? Because what's the teretz of Rabba? The teretz of Rabba is, it's not going to get ruined. Yeah, but it doesn't be mechabel tumah. Amru l'kashya. Okay, he says like this. Says Reb Akiva Eiger, ... the keshalah ... So, ... Rabah. He says, ... he wants to change different gears. Yeah, Reb Akiva Eiger, he says it's not Rabah, yeah? Rabah. But this is what — the shita, mechabel l'tzel, that's aser, is Rabah. That's already ... It's not so much what I want. Okay, all I'm trying to tell you is, what's the main problem of the Rambam? That's the main problem. Why? He says, ... how we pasken halacha l'maaseh is going to be a problem on the Rambam. That's what I'm trying to get at. I don't want to get into bitul Rabah, Rav, this girsa, that girsa. It's a very simple question: how could it be aser, mechabel l'tzel? How could it be aser? ... It's mutar. It's mutar. It's a ... heter. There's a Tosafos rid in Sukkah, he says, yeah. ...

Af techazi lalechet, mikomakom chashiv muktze kivan d'eino asui kli. Not a kli. This says, lo anu keilim shemelachtam l'heter. Not a kli. Not a kli. Why not? You know what's so funny? You're saying why not. You're the one who said—remember you said this to me a few minutes ago, and I said to you, wait, we'll see, there's a Tosfos like this. It's not a kli. You're the one who said this, you know? I said it, but I didn't understand what I— I knew there's a Tosfos. It's not a kli. It's not a kli, so why— There was one saying, chatan looking for shidduch. He was an am ha'aretz d'oraisa ... Meaning they call—no, that's expression Yiddish—an am ha'aretz d'oraisa ... meaning, ... lo chola dea, lo chokim, and ma ledaber. Real am ha'aretz. Knew nothing, knew nothing, nothing, nothing. It's a פירוש שידוך. מה, Rav chashuv, bato Rav chashuv me'eize ir, and dibru lo shidduch. He comes to the rav of his city, and he tells the rav, Rav, maybe you can teach me a little bit, because when I'm going to come there for the shidduch, yatchil lish'ol oti she'eilah, I don't—right? ... He looks at him, you—you're going to be ... me'ah shanah lo tavin shum davar. You're a lost case, he tells him. He says, even if I try to teach you a pasuk Chumash, you won't understand. Ein mah la'asot, ani rotzeh ... shidduch. And this, the rav thinks a minute and thinks and thinks. I have an eitzah for you. What's the eitzah? You go there. You go. He's going to start speaking to you in learning, and he's going to start—what you say is like this: mikvod hamechutan, you first want him to begin. You want that he should say his divrei Torah first, you'll say your divrei. The father, the one who's going to be bochen him, let him say first and you'll say after. And everything he says, say efshar paket, ulay mehafuch, ulay mehafuch, mashko machu yagid, efshar paket, v'yedis omrim efshar, ulay paket, ulay haיפך. V'kach tiskeh bאמת to work out. Gets to the guy that מארח, the burglar there, you hear? Knocks on the door, lets him in, shalom aleichem. Starts speaking to him in learning. He says to him, I'll tell you the emes, ... you should start and I'll be mamshich. Starts ... Rashi, Tosfos, ... and he looks to the guy, you know, efshar ... ... מתכוון לקושיא של התוספות על הרשבא ... nifla, nifla. אחר כך הוא ממשיך, ... תוספות, ... ... אחר כך הוא מסתכל, ... חמש דקות הוא מסתכל עליו, נו, בני, ... ... ממש למדן ... הוא מתכוון לקושיא ... ... זה הולך ככה שעה, efshar paket, efshar paket, efshar paket. זה שידוך, זה על המקום. He doesn't want him even to leave, you hear? He doesn't want him to leave because he's afraid that someone else is going to take him, because ... yes. Kitzur, he tells him, ... the shidduch, the shidduch. He says, My daughter, don't even ask questions. It's your shidduch. Finished. Kitzur, when he tells him what he's gonna do, she says, I'll go home and ... So, אומר לו, קשה עלי פרידתכם. Yeah? ... זה גמרא ... הקדוש ברוך הוא אומר, תצטער עוד יום, בגלל שזה קשה לי לפרד מכם. So he was telling him, like, ... קשה לי פרד. אמרת בור נפלא. ... קשה. זה גמרא מפורש. ... אומר לו, קשה עלי פרידתכם. אומר לו, ... ... אומר לו, ... ... This is it. ... ברוך השם. ... Kidding. Here comes along here Tosafos.

And he brings down from the Tosafos, no, it's not a kli b'chalal. Ela, chanani, if it would be a kli, then the halachah would be l'achar mishtazu, right? If it was a kli, then it would be mutar b'zman hazeh. This Gemara, mutar. But since it's not a kli at all, therefore it's not mutar. Now the shailah is, yeah, but what do you do with the Gemara? It's a very nice Tosafos. Yeah, but what do you do with the Gemara? What do you do with this Gemara? I'm saying, but the Gemara doesn't sound like that. The Gemara says, kodem mishtahzu, then it would be mutar, right? And Rabba is telling you l'achar mishtahzu, unless he's learning pshat Rabba. Unless the Tosafos is saying pshat Rabba. Since it l'fi pshuto is anyway not a problem, loses shem kli. That's what I understood pshat. You understand? No, we're learning a pshat in the Tosafos. Im kein, l'choirah gam lo didan hachi hu. According to us itself, d'keivan d'ein shem kli alav, u'muchan rak l'mitzvas halechem, he says pretty much in the sevara, since it's only muchan l'mitzvas halechem, since the whole thing is only for the lechem anyway, amnam, d'emes divrei Tosafos eilu kashya li. He says, I can't accept the Tosafos of R' Akiva Eiger. Why not? D'im kein, l'mai tzrichin loimar b'sugya d'Shabbos d'kodem hataras keilim, mishum d'ein mita'ma d'lo miyafish, ha b'lav hachi... So I'm answering this R' Akiva Eiger's kasha. Don't you R' Akiva Eiger say that from the Gemara's mashma l'os, before and after? No, he's answering this kasha. Why does the Gemara make it not לפני and after, even before, even after, even without eipush? It's just not a kli. I'm saying because that's what Rabba meant. No, but there is no difference between the... I'm telling you, after. Because after you want to be matir it, after you want to be matir it. So I'm telling you it's not mutar. Why not? Because me'ufash. Comes along with Rashba, and he says because of gufo. Comes along with Tiv Eiger and says that there's a svara it's not a kli because of lechem hapanim. So he has to be mekasher, then what is Rabba saying after and before? It's not not a gezeiras... I'm telling you it could be that to Rabbanan. What Rabbanan meant is, since it's not needed, loses shem kli. That's what it means. So... No, I'm telling you, but R' Akiva Eiger says, I'm showing you that for some reason R' Akiva Eiger didn't learn like this, and he learns the pshat in the Gemara is that it has to do with kli, and mainly he says it's tzrichin gago. He writes it's tzrichin gago. He doesn't say pshat in this Rabba. So R' Akiva Eiger says like this: the Tosafos read is very nice to learn a pshat in the Rambam, but what do you do with our sugya? Our sugya is mashma that it has to do with kli, before and after. I'm telling you that after R' Akiva Eiger, for some reason R' Akiva Eiger says tzrichin gago doesn't have no teretz to it. I'm saying, why can't you learn that svara for the teretz of Rabba? When Rabba came and said that you only need it for ipush, and there is no ipush anyway, so it's not a kli. That's all he means. So R' Akiva Eiger seems to learn it has to do with lechem hapanim. Since it's only for lechem hapanim, and I guess what he means, and lechem hapanim is not called oichel, because lechem hapanim is the eimurim, it's korbanos, so it's not called oichel, something like that. Something along those lines that R' Akiva Eiger means. Why do you have to say that? Why should lechem not be oichel? Who says not? Where do you get that information from? Not lechem hapanim. At the old lechem hapanim. After they take it out, the old one. The old one. Yeah, what's it called, ...? Because it's a lechma panim. It's not — here, it's the lashon. Here, here. It's mukhan l'mitzvah d'lech. That's how he explains the Tosafos. That's how he explains the Tosafos. It's mukhan l'mitzvah. No, no, no, no, no, you're missing the point. We have a difficult Rambam. That's far we got. You know what's so difficult about the Rambam? Difficult to get it through. Okay, yeah? The Rambam is easy, yeah? You with me? The Rambam is against the Gemara, right? Comes along Reb Akiva Eiger, and he says maybe he's like Rabba, right? That Rabba says that even after the heter teilim, right? Rabba says that even after heter, it's going to be aser. That's pshat in the Rambam, right? Again, Reb Akiva Eiger says the Rambam is difficult because Reb Eliezer says that today this will be mutar. What do you do with the sugya? What do you do? Reb Eliezer says it will be mutar. Teretz: we don't pasken like Reb Eliezer; we pasken like who? We pasken like Rabba, that Rabba says even today it will be aser. Problem is, it doesn't. Teretz of Rabba is that even today it will be aser, because it's not needed. The Razbik explains — oh, that's the kasha — the Razbik explains it's not called tzorech guf anymore.

Okay, so it says, Michamel tzel, chamso tumah. So it could be Rabbe's shitah saying that michamel tzel is aser, but the Rambam has to zich a pasken, michamel tzel is mutar. So how can he pasken that this is not? Moedik kashya, moedik kashya, moedik. Comes along Rabbi Akiva Eiger, and he brings a Tosafos, right? Tosafos says not a kli. He explains the why, Rabbi Akiva Eiger, because it's mukhan l'shem mitzvah, ... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yes, it's not a kli because it's... I don't know. I don't know. Who said? Because huksa l'mitzvah. Who says something huksa l'mitzvah can't be a kli? I don't know who said that. Huh? So who said that? Not a kli, but... I'm asking you a kashya, why not? It's a kli for the beis hamikdash. What do you call the beis hamikdash utensils? What do they call them? Keilim. What do you call them? Yeah, it's keilim. It's keilim. ... that it's a kli. They're arguing ... There is a kli. That's from Rabbi Akiva Eiger's kashya. It's tzarich עיון gadol. He says it's tzarich עיון gadol. I have no teretz to Rav. But I'm telling you, I don't know why you can't learn that in Rambam. Why can't you learn that that's what Rabba meant, since Rabba's saying he doesn't need it because it's only m'degei ipush. What is he saying? It's not a kli. The whole reason for the ... shouldn't get rotten. L'maaseh it's not going to get rotten anyway. So what Rabba means to say is, it's not a kli. It's not needed. Not needed. Not needed. That's all. That's how I would understand Rabba, and the Tosafos read is beautiful, and that's the sugya. And the Rambam follows Rabba. That's how I would say. I don't know why Rabbi Akiva Eiger doesn't answer. Okay, now I want to show you another nekudah, and then we're going to get back to the diyuk in the Gemara, and then you'll see we're talking l'maaseh. Comes along the Rav Baz, on the side of the Rambam, and he says like this. Okay. Beautiful. I asked you, what's the pshat in Tosfos? Why do they only ask this if they matir all other shvusim? I brought you a Ritva, that the Ritva says, because since there was shevach in tiltul, how you motzi kelim b'tiltul, b'motza, right? Tiltul is another word, motza. So they asked tiltul mutar. Good? Good. Fine. Chazon Ish, Rav Bazi makes believe he never saw any of the Rishonim, mamash nothing, totally not negea, and he brings a new pshat. You know why they asked this more than anything else? Because there's no need for it on Shabbos. Why do you have to do that on Shabbos? Why do something on Shabbos if you do it erev Shabbos? Shvusim we were matir—again, it's... Rashi explains it could be done erev Shabbos. Rashi explains how they did it erev Shabbos. Now you see a Tosfos. Wait, what? The Baas says like this. ... she'ein tzorech b'tiltul hakohanim, loi ratzu l'hatirah k'dei shehei Shabbos chamurah aleihem. Lefi shekol davar shekavua loi zman docheh Shabbos, v'sidur lechem hapanim kavua loi zman, and l'maaseh the sidur lechem hapanim has a zman. Like it says, ya'aroch osah even on Shabbos. Hachi tnan, loi sidur hakohanim, loi teirosu docheh Shabbos, u'le'olam achar haToras keilim nishtes. So according to this— Rabbaz says, the whole reason, and we were learning till now why they assered this shvus more than any other shvusim. We said tiltul, hotzaah, gezeiros, chachamah, beautiful, right? Shabbos, tosefes. Comes the Rabbaz and says the whole thing has nothing to do with this. It's because you could do it erev Shabbos, so why do it on Shabbos? Why should we even think about this discussion? Since l'maaseh you see that hakanah is done on Shabbos, since the breads were put on Shabbos, they're supposed to— no, the breads are supposed to be on Shabbos. The question is when you put the kanim. He's saying that this change, it could be done erev Shabbos, so why do it on Shabbos? Because since it could be done erev Shabbos... Huh? V'lefi she'ein b'sidurin tzorech, v'lo yehei b'tiltulin d'chiyas Shabbos, d'ilo teima hachi, k'shechozer v'tiroy, v'matirin gam tiltul hakanim. V'zeh ta'am paska Rabbeinu Zal. It becomes a keli she'melachto l'heter, shelo l'tzorech l'gamrei. L'gamrei. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? One second.

We can. We can. יש לומר שאין רואין מטלטל דשבת שום כלי, משום צרך כלל. Nefesh said that these kohanim are not nital. They're not nital, sidur kohanim, v'loi netilasam. The Gemara is trying to tell me what called shelo l'tzorech klal. I asked you in the Rach, why does the Rach stress that these sidur kohanim is not doiche Shabbos, right, and the netilah is not doiche Shabbos? First of all, why do you need both? Sidur, it's not doiche, kol shekein for netilah. And I also asked you, stam azoi, are these kohanim mutar tovel or not mutar? Just say they're mutar on Shabbos. Why are we discussing, like the Rach says, the sidur and the netilah? And the answer is, because you're allowed to take these kohanim. You want to know something? You're allowed to take these kohanim for any reason besides for the sidur of the kohanim and the netilah of the kohanim. Why? Because they're really not muktzah. It's only muktzah l'gabei this avodah, because shelo l'tzorech klal, klal, klal, klal, klal. Rambam. Tell me something. I know I learned pieces. Places here, you'll see dacha. Vacation. Okay, good. Now, what happened was there was Beis Aharon. ... What do they call him again? The Rebbe, the one who pops in the shailos, the ... loser. The Paisik was on Gerians. Minchas Eluzer, Shas tshuvas Minchas Eluzer. They swear by it. He's like the paisik by all the Gerians, Minchas Eluzer. Like by ... Feinstein, by them it's Minchas Eluzer. Gerians, Minchas Eluzer. He was the paisik hador by them. Nah, but the Minchas Eluzer was like the paisik. And the Vizhnitzer Rebbe. They were all three together. So he wants to ask the Beit Aharon, tell me, what do you see? Again, with such Rebbes, you're at ... Let me tell you something. ... Where were you there twelve last year? ... Where were you there twelve this past year? I told this story to Shmuel Birnbaum. He was on the fourth lift. I told him while ... my grandmother, he came to ... my father. ... I told him he was on the fourth lift. And he told me, Say it over again. He wanted me to hear it again. He told me three times, he made me say it over. ... And he loved it, yeah, because he loved literally ... So they came to the ... Rebbe. They told him, ... He says, Listen, ... ... They asked him, you know, the ... said this. He says, Let me tell you something. We went to sleep, he was learning, and we woke up, he was ... I heard this from the guy from Switzerland that was there. That was there when the story happened. I heard it from the guy that heard it when it was there, when it happened. Guy from Switzerland told me, old man from Switzerland. That's the thing. He told me that in Switzerland is one of the most famous stories. Like this is the ... because the very Chassidish there, they like the Beit Aharon, so to them it's the story. He told me, told me in Switzerland. He pulled over any ... He told me, I told him, you sure? He said, I was there. He says, and I want you to know, you take any child, pull him over and ask him, he'll know this story, the famous story. Switzerland. He went to say ... They got this thing very nicely. ... Where were you there twelve last year? Yeah, that was ... Okay, kach. Keilim shemelachto l'heter, shelo l'tzorech klal u'klal is asur, and we know this because I told this to you in the Rambam. Remember I showed you the Rambam sheetah is that a keli shemelachto l'heter has to have a tzorech. Stam shelo l'tzorech, the Rambam over there in Hilchos Shabbos, he's saying, we see it here also, says the Rambam. This is what the Rambam ... Why? So that's what I try to tell you, because let's say I took these makalot and I wanted to do it for toothpicks. I have something stuck in my tooth. That's mutar. Why is it not keli? If I wanted to take this to put it in my house, it's mutar. It's mutar. If I wanted to take this keli shemelachto l'heter, shelo yapech halechem sheli babayis, it would be mutar.

In the beis hamikdash, when they had a lot of moving around, yeah, it's only for sidur kohanim that the Gemara is mechadesh. Why? Because that's called shelo l'tzorech klal uklal. The chiddush is, l'inyan zeh, zeh nichsav shelo l'tzorech klal uklal, and that's why the Gemara says both nekudos. Sidur kohanim, it's not needed, so I would think netilas kohanim is needed. You know why? Because since it's l'maaseh helps me, because to change it, I want to. In other words, I would tell you this: I don't need it for sidur kohanim because it's not become mefurash. But l'maaseh, I'm going to put tomorrow, I'm going to end up changing it anyway, so maybe I'm allowed to move it because then it becomes a tzorech. Even that's called v'lo netilasa. So it's a special takanah because that's called shelo l'tzorech l'lech ma'panim. L'maaseh, for the lechem hapanim was not needed to stay, because you could do it Friday. And since you could do it Friday, it's called shelo l'tzorech. And you could take it for your tzorech. I'm not sure that you'll have another problem based on mikdash. I'm not discussing based on mikdash. The point is, the gezeirah here is, it's dafka for the sidur hakohanim. All these cases are cases kodem, mishnu, they were learned before the heter hakelim. Now we do this Gemara. So what do you answer? It comes along the Gemara. The Gemara says, no, no, because the Gemara really, we could say it's l'achar, right? Says the Gemara like this: Eimurcha, eimur, amar Rabba, mimai? Dilma lo ilma eimurcha l'achar taras keilim nishno. This is really afterwards, taras keilim. Huh? I missed this. We said all this. Okay, the Gemara says like this, by the cases of the sticks. They would go and be tovel, they would have to put the karpeisah on it. So what does Reb Lezer say? Amar Reb Lezer, arba schachayos b'Shabbos, מניח ידו על כסת חבירו, ויד חבירו על כתיפו, וטול ומפשיט, in order not to use these sticks, because these sticks will muktzah on Shabbos. The sticks to be mafshit the korban Pesach were not allowed to be used on Shabbos. אי אפשר, להיתר; the teretz is, it was קודם שחיטת הקורבן. Glustera, the same thing. Now we learned, נקש יש ברייתא גלוסטרא, רבי יהושע אומר, רבי יהושע says, שומטה מן פתח זה ותולה בחבירו. What's that? Glustera, what the case is? A type of like a tsor or some chisel or something. נקש יש ברייתא גלוסטרא, שראשה אחד ראוי לדפוס. Huh? It's not a lock. It's not a lock. You could use it for a lock. Rashi says clearly, נקש... You could put it to close the door. No, it says, נקש... שראשה ראוי לדפוס... means they used to use locks at the door and they used to use it for a chisel also. Okay. So what else does the Gemara say? שומטה מן פתח זה ותולה בחבירו, ואף על גב דצריך לגופה, לתלותה בחבירו ולנעול בו, שומטה על ידי גרירה, אבל טלטול גמור לא, in other words you're not allowed to move it, ואף על פי שלאחתו להיתר. How could it be asur to move this thing? It's muktzah l'heter. So the Gemara says, that's what they have to say, it's קודם שהתירו, so before they were matir the keilim. Okay, so the Gemara says, מדוכה הא דאמרן, the case of meducha we learned before, and this Gemara says, okay, תא שמע, קמילא ותאפל מחת. Okay, meducha דאמר רבא. Comes along Rav and he says, מאי? דילמא לא למימלך לאחר טורח, קמילא נשתרו. It's really pashut lacha d'idu matbil keilim. You know, because we learned it already. The Gemara says four cases where keilim ha'mutarim, not allowed to be moved. Four different cases, okay? Case one is kanim for the maareches ha'mishkan, which we have four. Okay, good. And then there's one for the karnei pesach, that they use a stick to hang the korban Pesach to take off the skin. One was glustera, right? Glustera is this key. This key is not allowed to be moved. The key from the door is not allowed to be moved. And the last case was matucha, which we learned, matucha for the shum, to chop the shum. All these cases are cases that are asur. And the only reason they're asur is because before they were matir the keilim. But once they're matir the keilim, that halacha is mutar. Comes the Gemara. Amar Rava says, Rava, mai? How do you know this? Dilma lo alma im lecha lacha toras keilim nishnu. Really, pashut lacha toras keilim. Kan mai ta'ama? Mishum nifusha. We learned this because it's going to get dry, right? And v'hai purta l'mafteresh, in this little time, it's not going to get—there's no reason for it. You don't need it. Shelo l'tzorech, remember the Rashba. This case, this case of kanim, only this. The teretz to this is it was not needed. You with me? You with me? You know? Okay, so...

Ah, ah. Ravinu. Ah. All these cases are cases of keilim, which seem to be mutar. They seem to be regular keilim that mutar, and still the Mishnah paskens to us that these are called keilim asurim, even from melachas heter. So asks the Gemara, why is it asur? And the Gemara answers, because it's kodem shenishna melachas heter. In other words, when we were matir the keilim was later. Before they were matir it, all this is asur. And the Gemara gives these cases, kinim, all the cases, matir keilim. That's why all this is asur. That's why the Mishnah says they're asur. However, all this is mutar, okay? Comes along Rabba, and Rabba says no. Says Rabba, I could really tell you that all this is really after the heter, and still all this is asur. And he's going to go one by one explaining why each case is asur. Case number one, ifushi efshar. The whole reason why you put the seeds by the bread was to make sure it doesn't get spoiled. It ain't going to get spoiled anyway, and we explained, the way we translated it, the meileh it's not even called a tzorech. The Rashba learns pshat in the Gemara, we saw the Rashba, it's not called tzorech gufo, right? We said it's called mamash shelo l'tzorech, the Rabbaz. Remember how we learned the two pshatim, right? Rashba learns it's not called tzorech gufo anymore, and the Rabbaz learns—Thursday—the Rabbaz learns it's not called tzorech bichlal, okay. What about the second case, says the Gemara? Kanim, yeah, okay. What about the case of maklois of Pesach? Efshar k'Rabbi Eliezer, because Rabbi Eliezer learns you can only take a keli ha'mutar l'tzorech ochel. Remember Rabbi Eliezer, the famous Rabbi Eliezer, that a keli is only nital for the tzorech of that keli. So therefore, says the Gemara, that's Rabbi Eliezer. Rabbi Eliezer holds you can't use it for korban Pesach. But takkeh, would you— You say that, Rabbi Eliezer. Rabbi Eliezer says, ein a nitel ela b'tzarkoi. It's Rabbi Eliezer. One second, Rabbi Eliezer. ... מניחו על כתף חבירו. In other words, it seems it could be done with your own hands. This matzias, or, could be done through the hands, doesn't need a special ... You don't need. Okay. Again. Right. Then comes Gemara. What about gluska? Gluska is k'Rabbi Yannai. Rabbi Yannai ... I'm assuming the same thing like ... Give me one more minute. I'll show you what I want. Says the Gemara, k'deRabbi Yannai. ... We're not talking about tiltul muktzah. We're talking about tiltul issur of hotzaah. The problem is eruv. The problem is not tiltul muktzah. Yeah, muktzah is not a problem. ... That's the problem. Okay. ... Right. So what's the shaylah? ... ... as if he was metaltel in the batim. ... ... in the chatzer. ... If something is in the chatzer itself, you're allowed to be metaltel. Something which is within the chatzer, that you're allowed to be metaltel. If it belongs in the chatzer. If it's something which is ... used in the chatzer, then you're allowed to be metaltel in the chatzer. The problem is ... can be used in the chatzer. So the shayla is, is this called this key? Huh? No, the chatzer is for everybody, but it's an open chatzer. Okay, let's say a park. Let's say a park that has a thing around. You're allowed to carry things inside, as long as it's not mukaf le'diras. You can't carry from the house to this. But if it's there, you're allowed to carry. You're allowed to carry. Take the ball, you're allowed. That's what I'm saying, that's only mukaf le'diras. No, you're not allowed to carry from your house to the chatzer. Huh? No, I'm saying, which Rabbanan, it's us to carry from a house to a chatzer, even if the chatzer is shutafin. But mukaf le'chatzer is mutar. The shayla is... as long as it has a fence around. As long as it has a fence around, and it's mutar. We're learning more mukaf. The Gemara just gives one case. This is just one case. The Gemara answers, it's talking about not a chasaron of mukaf, but the chasaron is a chasaron of... Okay. Depends if it's open or not. That's a pesach, I mean, whatever.

I was not coming here to discuss the part now. I'm just—by the way, the teretz of the Gemara is it's not tiltul מוקצה. The teretz of the problem is עירוב. Then the Gemara says, what about מדוכה? מדוכה שמלאכתו... This is where I got my... The mechani that says, אין כלי ניטל אלא לצורך... Okay. Now, when you read this Gemara, מדוכה, why can I move it? Yes, why can I move it? The teretz is because you can only move it לצורך. Now, I have a pashut kasha. When you read this Gemara, there's two things I want to know. Two things, two pashut things I want to know. I want to know that when he says, דילמא לעולם אימא לך, פירוש, he's arguing with the Tanna Kama, and he's telling you that I hold in cases of this. Or he's just saying, even you, Tanna Kama, even you that come and say you could have answered דילמא אימא לך, meaning it's not a real teretz. When the Gemara starts—again, you know what? What's the teretz? What do I want with this shiur? I want you to read with me. Read with me. Learn to read a piece of Gemara, okay? The Gemara said, four kelim which are asur, and then the Gemara says that's קודם, that's before the issur. When Rabba comes along and says really it's after the issur. Now what does he mean? He means to say like this: ממילא, I'm telling you, you didn't have to learn it's before the issur. I could tell you—doesn't mean I'm telling you because I hold this way. Meaning, he's saying, isn't there not like a second way to learn the Gemara? Meaning, but the emes is no machlokes. Ein machlokes פה between the Tanna Kama, the Tanna Kama being Rabbi Eliezer, and... maybe I could say, right? There is a machlokes Reb Eliezer and Rabbanan why Reb Eliezer won't like Rabbanan and Rabbanan won't like Reb Eliezer. Okay, I'm not— the word is machlokes. Now sit down. It's not too hard. Let me tell you. Sit down. It's not that difficult. You're not missing any information. There are four kelim. There's four kelim, yeah, that the Mishnah says are asur, okay? Maduchai, gelustera. Four different types of kelim, four different Mishnayot. Comes along Reb Eliezer and says, You know all this why it said it's asur? Because it's before they were matir kelim. L'vsof that they were matir all the kelim, these Mishnayot are all wrong. Comes along Rabbanan and says, No, lo, I'll tell you it's really after they were matir, and each one is asur for a specific reason that he just gave. This you understood, so you just learned. Right? Before it's asru, everything is asur, only kappeis is mutar. That's why it's asur. That's why it was asur. That's why the Mishnah wrote these things asur, because certain things are gufei mutar. This is asur. These are kelim shel heter which are asur, okay? Comes along Rabba, and Rabba says—not Rabba, but Rava, Rabba with an aleph—sorry, Rabba. Comes along Rabba and he says, No, no, no, no, no. Dilma, eimar lecha, maybe I could tell you. Is he arguing with Reb Eliezer? No. Could be he's saying, Reb Eliezer, I'm telling you, you could have answered all this also. Meaning it's not muchach what you say, because even according to you, it could have been l'achar. Or—and mimeila, do I have to explain that these two are machlokes Reb Eliezer? No, I don't have to say that, right? Or maybe, or maybe I could come and say, yeah—no, so that means, no, one second. When he comes, eimar lecha, eimar lecha means, Reb Eliezer, I could come and tell you that even Rishitatcha, you can answer like this. Or eimar lecha means—or it's a different way how to learn the Mishnah. It's a complete—they are arguing, of course they're arguing. If they are arguing, you know what ends up happening? I have to know each case. Why Reb Lezer didn't want to answer this way. Then I have to know why each one said what they said. If the pshat is, אמרו לך just a teretz to Reb Eliezer. Lezzi, you said this. I'm telling you, Lezzi, you could have said it like this. It's not muchach, right? But if the pshat is, Reb Lezzi, you said this and I'm telling you this, so there's another thing I want you to keep. On each case, you just can say—I'm not holding like that. Every case you can say, no, no, no. Okay, so let me tell you a different nekudah. Then you also have to know another thing too. You have to know if the teretz of all of this is one teretz, or it's four different terutzim. What do I mean by one teretz? If they argue in one thing—in Reb Eliezer. Amar Rav Chanina. You're right, you're right, you're right. No, no, Reb Eliezer.

All you could read is like this. See, this is before I'm even getting to explain the Gemara. I first want to know what exactly is Rabba doing. Is Rabba coming to tell Rabbi Eliezer, Rabbi Eliezer, why say what you say? Can't you learn like this? So it doesn't mean that there's a big machlokes over here. It's just Rabbi Eliezer, you could answer. There's another way how to learn the Mishnah. What's the pshat is—no, no. Rabbi Eliezer is learning what he's learning, and Rabba's saying, Lo l'meimra, I argue with you. There's a different pshat in the Mishnah. So then it comes out there's a machlokes. Rabbi Eliezer didn't want to learn like that. Second of all, is the pshat is it's one teretz to Rabbi Eliezer, and there's different cases of that teretz, or what it is is that's really four different terutzim. Now, the emes is, we spoke yet from the Rambam. Remember we spoke from the Rambam that the Rambam really paskens like Rabba. Now, does he pasken like Rabba on everything? Does he pasken like Rabba by the get of terumah and the chamya? Only by kanim, right? So then it would come out that kanim is a separate teretz. Rabba never learns kelim's only hitlu l'sark. Rabba holds kelim's only hitlu l'sark. We don't pasken from chamya, right? If the pshat is that it's all separate, so then I could say we could pick and choose. Rambam is masma that it's separate, right? Because he paskens the first thing of Rabba's teretz, but he doesn't pasken all the other things, right? He doesn't pasken like from chamya, that's for sure not, right? So it comes out that it's separate terutzim, that each one is a separate teretz. Now I'm going to show you, when you learn the Gemara b'emes, it's really all one teretz, and I'll show you what I mean. What was the case of gluska? Let's see now the case of gluska. There's a maidige kasha yet there. What's gluska? Rashi says it's not. Rabbi Yehoshua omer. Rabbi Yehoshua says—what does Rabbi Yehoshua say? Yeah, now we're going to the case. Naga sheyesh b'rosho glustera, sherosho av — its head is thick. The top Rashi, glustera. What's the case of glustera? Okay? Naga sheyesh b'rosho glustera, sherosh av, v'roi l'hadok bo shul, v'noilin bo dales. It's roi to be — and they used to use it for a dales. It's like a key, a little — like a key. Good, good, good, however it looks. Now, shointin mipesach zeh v'toleh b'chaveiro. There's a very important Rashi. V'af al gav d'tzarich l'gufo, litlois b'chaveiro. Even though — what do you need it? You need it b'gufo. For what? Litloisoi b'chaveiro. Rashi: v'af al gav. Now, v'af al פי שמלאכתו להיתר — even though there's a keli shemelachto l'heter, lo shari lei l'tzorech gufo. We're not going to be matir it l'tzorech gufo. We're not going to be matir it l'tzorech gufo. Why not? What's your kasha? What are you asking me? Oh, so that's the shaila: is it before the heter or is it after the heter? Is it before the heter or is it after the heter? The Gemara is saying it's before. So what's the issur? So let's see Rashi again. It's l'tzorech l'gufo. You're only allowed to move it, not pick it up and put it, but you're allowed to drag it, like — with a shinui, a grirah. You're allowed to, like, push it off. For its need. L'maaseh, you need it. You need the gufo hacheifetz. No, no, no. You need the key. So what you do is you're gorer the key instead of metaltel, right? So that's what it is. You're allowed to be gorer. The only way you're allowed to do it is with a shinui. You're allowed to be gorer. That's all you're allowed to do. Kick it with your leg, that's all. But you're not allowed to move it. Let me state Rashi. Says Rashi, why? B'tiltul גמור לאי, v'af al פי shemelachte l'heter, even though it's melachto l'heter, lo shari lei l'tzorech gufo. We're not going to be matir it l'tzorech gufo. Okay, now the shaylah is like this: it's raui laduch bashum, and you also nail the dales with it. You also nail the dales with it. So that's my shaylah here. So he says to me the ikar is to be noel the dales. The ikar is to be noel the dales. That's why it's called a melachto l'heter. He says like this: sherei asur lin'ol bo. Made asui, asui it's made lin'ol bo. That's why it's called a melachto l'heter. Now, u'mihu tzarich hei boi glustera.

But it still must have a glustra anyway. This, in order for it to be what? No. In order for this halacha to be true, it still needed a glustra. Why does it need a glustra? Li'oi Yisroei laduchboi. In the פירוש Rashi, it's a havi peirush kli ol. In order to have a teretz. But it's not made for that. This is what I'm telling you. I was hesitant how to read Rashi, because the Maharsha is telling you something very interesting. It's called a keli shel melachto l'heter because of the lock. It's called a keli because of the glustra. This is the Maharsha. This glustra is a keli shel melachto l'heter, correct? Comes along the Maharsha. Read it. I'm not making it up. Read it. It's almost the Maharsha. Says the Maharsha, it's a melachto l'heter because it's what? To lock a door. It's to lock the door on Motzaei Shabbos. But it's a kli because of the... It's used on Erev Shabbos. It has a... That's one. Because of... I'm not arguing he's wrong or right. But either way, I can see that something is kavua, kavua, and made to lock a door, then it becomes a kli. You know, as a matter of fact, if he'll use kelim, if he'll use kelim, I was looking, you were showing me the Aruch over there in kelim, right? The Aruch in kelim, let's say about... The guy bekli... I don't see really make a difference. I'm telling you, Maharsha. I'm telling you, I... Rashi says it's meant matuchah, and it's what? Roy, it fits laducho, and it's also mei lina. Vayashi, what's the ... what's not the ... why? I don't know. Rashi says ... Rashi says ... by matuchah, ... by matuchah, and then ... ... says ... ... and ... ... and ... ... Why? ... the heter ... ... the heter ... ... and then ... ... and the ... ... and the ... ... We learned the sugya of a machlokes. Let me show you ... But there's a very big difference in this, I'm sorry, between the two. By nekuvah, what is it? It's a keli shemelachto l'issur, and with she'eino nekuvah, it's a keli shemelachto l'heter. So how can the Gemara call it mutar? It's not the same tool. It's not mutar under the same tool. Huh? He's using it for ... He's using ... ... So how can it be that one becomes mutar? But the Gemara is not true. One is in a kuvah, which is a keli shemelachto l'issur, and one is she'eino l'kuvah, which is a keli shemelachto l'heter. So how can the Gemara say under the same halacha, mutar l'taltel with a different type of tiltul? Marsha put them together. How can you put them together? One is the kuvah, which is a keli shemelachto l'issur, it's only l'tzorech gufo u'mekomo. Isn't it the same thing like the machlokes what the master did with the— It's the exact opposite of the Marshal, but it's the same case. No, why? It's very— Listen to a Chasam Sofer. The Sofer says like this: when you have a regular needle, okay, a regular needle, and someone asks you, tell me, a regular needle is muktzah or not muktzah? And the answer is? A regular needle, fine. Which muktzah is? Keli shemelachto l'issur. Therefore, what is it mutar? L'tzorech gufo u'mekomo, right? L'tzorech gufo u'mekomo. The Gemara tries to prove, the Gemara tries to prove, to take out a koitz here, to take out a koitz is what? It's kulo tzorech gufo. That was because of the Mishnah. Remember the Mishnah said that to take out a koitz? Okay. Then the Gemara brings a case of a machat nekuvah and a machat she'einah nekuvah. This you remember, Eliyahu? Machat nekuvah, machat she'einah nekuvah, in both cases is what? Mutar l'taltel.

Says the Gemara, אי בעי טומאה, one is tamei, one is tahor, and I thought you said to me that by kelim, whatever is tamei is Shabbos not allowed to be moved, whatever is tahor is allowed to be moved on Shabbos because it is a keli. Tumah and Shabbos are the same. Answers the Gemara, no. It's tumah goral. That what's for tumah, the halacha is it's not a kli, but for Shabbos it will be mutar. What's the case of eino nekuvah? Gormei. What is gormei? A machat which doesn't have a hole, and it's only mimuch, a person has the right to use it for what? Take out a kotz on Shabbos, which is mutar. Whatever it is, it's for something which is mutar. Okay. Comes out, is there a difference between a nekuvah and a she'eina nekuvah? No. From Rabba, no. What's Rabba? Sure it is. One is a keli she'melachto l'heter, and one is a keli she'melachto l'isur. So how could the Gemara ask the Chacham himself to put it together as mutar l'taltel? It's not true. What do you mean? One is mutar l'taltel לגמרי, one is mutar l'taltel לצורך מקומו. How can it be under the same mutar l'taltel? It's mutar for different reasons. It's different halachos of mutar. One is mutar completely, and one is only mutar l'tzorech גופו ומקומו, and one is אסור לחמה לצל. The difference is one is mutar לחמה לצל, and one is אסור לחמה לצל. The gormei will be mutar לחמה לצל, and then the she'eina nekuvah will be אסור לחמה לצל. That's the Chacham's question like this. B'kol makom, nakta mina, d'gam she'eino nekuvah, tehei muteres l'taltel afilu mechamah l'tzel. It comes out that it'll be even mutar mechamah l'tzel. V'lo mashma kein milshon ha'beraisa. But the lashon ha'beraisa mashma, d'kai al nekuvah v'eino nekuvah. The Gemara puts it together. Or the opposite. But beraisa is not speaking about mechamah l'tzel. Whatever it says ptilto, whatever the ptilto of this one is, it has to be this one, right? Mutar l'taltel. Whatever it has to be the same mutar l'taltel, right? This is mutar l'taltel only melachto l'issur, tzorech gufo u'mekomo, and this is mutar even mechamah l'tzel. That can be put together. How can you put it on the one heading? Yes. V'eino nekuvah, mashma, heichi d'nekuvah shemelachto l'issur, eino muteres ela l'tzorech gufo u'mekomo, hacha nami eina nekuvah. So then it's mashma eina nekuvah is also only mutar mechamah l'tzorech gufo u'mekomo. He says like this: This that you have in mind to use it for heter, it's not enough, he says, to give it a shem keli shemelachto l'heter. You have to mamash use it for heter. Ah. So that's right. You know what? He says it in one line, and he's saying unbelievable chiddush, unbelievable, unbelievable chiddush. He said like this: this pin, which is muktzah for heter, guess what? Still ... unless you mamash use it for heter. That's right. That's right. According to the phones and fork, if you're not using the fork just to play like that, it would be ... For what reason is a ...? Give me a few more minutes. For what reason is a ...? Am I right? This that umetzayea the nachash, shem tli alav. It's enough to come and say it's a shem tli. Why? Because you will use it for heter. But it's still not enough to give it its what? Its shem heter. Why? Because l'maaseh you didn't use it for heter. No, only if you use it for heter. No, why is it still good? When the Gemara said, mimach, that you might use it for heter, the Gemara didn't even turn to ... heter. It's enough to give it its name tli, that's all. You want to know what it will be? It will be a ... Why? No, no, no, why? Why? Say, ah, you want to use it for heter.

People don't use this for issur, and the teretz is... A pin is a melacha l'issur. This is a pin. It doesn't go personal; it can go by personal line, right? Oh, oh, oh, you know when to get what? Even if it's shem heter and issur, that goes after the person. But when you want to discuss what to define the kli, that has to do with... That's... gavra is defined. What? The thing is, this machlokes, I'm saying, are complete stiros, complete contradictions. The machlokes is learning, the machlokes is learning like this. This Gemara, that... machlokes learning not now, machlokes learning now Gemara. The Torah kli, the Torah kli comes from what? Comes from the fact that can be used for a melacha. Since it's being used, since it's being used for heter, so therefore we're going to give it which shem? Kli she'melachto l'heter. That's this. But Marsha is saying that since it's used for issur, it becomes kli, but if you use it for heter, does it become kli? Since this is... The roi, the roi makes it into the shem. Why cannot say that since you're using for this, to last, this makes it kli? Obviously, from the sugya in Gemara you see that a lock doesn't have to have a shem kli. It fits the door, it's nothing. It fits to the door, it's nothing. So in order to give it its kli, its shem kli, you have to what? Use it for a melacha. Roi lihyos melacha. But in order to give it its definition, what type of kli, then we look as to what, l'maaseh, noel im boi deles. You hear? L'maaseh, noel im boi deles. That's what we're going to say. You're noel a deles with it, therefore it's a melacha l'heter. This Chasam Sofer comes along and says like this: by the case of the pin, you hear? The case of the pin, what happens? It turned into a kli because you were meyached it, right? What does that do? That gives it shem kli. But not a heter. Why is not? Because the mashal is learning it's shem kli comes because it's batel me'ra'ui for kli. The opposite. Yeah, even though it's not, even though it's not, but still we don't look at it, right, as a kli. No, it's a meyached l'shem heter. It's just going to come and give me a shem kli, but not the—exact opposite of this mashal. Because the mashal is learning the opposite. For a— No, exactly. It doesn't give it a shem kli, you hear, but it gives it this melacha l'heter. Okay. And here he's saying, b'meyached l'meleches heter, it'll give it a shem kli, but it won't give it its melacha l'heter. Same thing, actually. It's clear, clear. The mashal is saying that when a person is meyached—what would the mashal say over here? The mashal would say, guess what? It's not a kli, but it's melacha l'heter. So, but how do we become— I don't know, it would be a big chakirah according to the mashal tomorrow. This Gemara is mashma that it turns into a shem kli, but it still doesn't give it its melacha l'heter. And the mashal is saying the exact opposite. It doesn't give it a shem kli. It gives you its melachas het. You with me, guys? ... Okay. And then we get back to see that maybe it's machlokes Reb Eliezer and Rabbanan. We'll soon see. Listen carefully. After I show you the machlokes of the Maharsha, I'll show you that this is a machlokes, really, the Mechaber and the Rama. And then I'm going to show you, because it's really a machlokes of Reb Eliezer and Rabbanan. The two opinions in the Gemara argue about this. I'll show it to you. We'll soon see. We'll soon see. Again, the Maharsha comes along and tells me a chiddush, just like this. Listen. This glustera, Rashi says two things about it. The first thing is it's ra'ui laduchlo. It's fit. They don't say people use it, but it's fit to make madukah. Ra'ui. And the Maharsha doesn't stress the way I do, because I'm learning pshat in the words, and the Maharsha is saying the klalim b'kitzur. But that's what the Maharsha means. The Maharsha means, what is the difference between ra'ui and ...

The noyalim boy. The answer is, paka royi means fit, and noyalim means to do it. There's a difference between royi. When Rashi says royi, what does royi mean? It's fit to. The noyalim is done. That's what done. That's Rashi. Says the Maharsha, says the Maharsha. But you understand this? You understand? Royi and noyalim is two different things. Comes along the Maharsha. In order for a kli, shemelachto l'heter, to become a kli shemelachto l'isur, it needs two ingredients. It needs to be a kli, and it needs shemelachto l'heter. Kemo amilin, exact words. It needs a kli, and it needs melachto l'heter. How do we see from the words? Whose words? Rashi. Maharsha says a kli. I mean, it can't even be learned up in his words. No, how do we see in the words that it has to be a kli? He says it. He says that the ... gives it. Can't say better or more open than that. It says. I just want to point out, we said this, you saw the first day that we walked in here, kol hakeilim, that there's a din kli. In order for something to become mutar, asur, melachto l'heter, you first have to get ground one. Ground one, it has to be a kli. Now, what makes it a kli? Says the Maharsha, that's the royi laduch. Royi laduch. Yeah, but one second, some melachto l'isur. Says the Maharsha, I don't care. Since v'noi alim bah, since l'maaseh they use this for heterim, that makes it a kli. That makes it a melachto l'heter. What makes it a kli? Royi laduch, for matzah. This is the Maharsha, pshat in Rashi. Good? Beautiful? Yeah. We're using for each part, we're using the ... from one part. So we have here a chiddush, that you could give it תורת כלי from one thing, and it's melachto l'heter from a whole different thing. Grada, grada. Tzani lachtmi. Remember we spoke about the inyan of a keli shemelachto l'issur, that we use it l'tzorech gufo u'mekomo. What's the pshat? Is the pshat that it remains a keli shemelachto l'issur, but there's a special heter l'tzorech gufo u'mekomo? Or it becomes like a keli shemelachto l'heter? But what does Hashem kli really? Issur. So mashal is not so wrong in cheshbon. If you learn that the pshat is every keli shemelachto l'issur turns into a keli shemelachto l'heter, but it's shem kli definitely was because of what? The hammer is a hammer, right? Let me show you a Chasam Sofer. The Chasam Sofer learns a very big chiddush, that you have over here a nekev and a pin. Once that lock is definitely keli shemelachto l'issur. Comes along the Gemara and says, Bein nekuvah, bein she'eino nekuvah, is ניטל. What's the she'eino nekuvah? Says the Gemara, it's garmei, it's never... it's a keli shemelachto l'heter. He says, Chasam Sofer, I don't understand what's going on here then. So how can it be shneiam ניטלים? If one is ניטל, not michamel l'tzel, and one is ניטל michamel l'tzel. When it's nekuvah, it's a melachto l'issur, and therefore it can be what? ניטל michamel l'tzel. When it's not a nekuvah, it's regular melachto l'heter. So why is it put it together? You hear the kasha of the Chasam Sofer? Right. Yeah, you hear the kasha? When it's nekuvah, we have to say, even though it's melachto l'heter, meaning you meyached it for a melachto l'heter, you know what's going to happen? It's going to remain a melachto l'issur. Why are you using it for heter? And the answer is, using it for heter is not going to give it—listen carefully— It's melachah l'heter. It's just enough to give it a shem kli. That's all the Gemara wants. What is it going to give it? A machat. It gives it a shem, even though it's miyuchad for heter, it's going to give it a shem kli. Not much you'll have from it, but it's not going to do what? It's not going to give it its melachah l'heter. Exactly what I'm saying. You don't need it to be kli in order to be muktzah. That's right. This chatam sofer, from mashal, it's a kli, right? What does the Maharsha say? According to Maharsha, the opposite. It will become heter, but it won't become a kli. ... Here, he's very good. Take out. The Biur ... Read me the Shulchan Aruch now. Read. No, give it to me. ... ... Getting hungry, getting pidyon haben, getting ... Go ahead, read.

Right? Matigim b'kli pan, biyontif. Now, if they machlul biyontif, ein matigim b'kli pan. You're now, you're now burn them with the klipos, which the mashal brings hasaka, by the way, too. Hagar, gam ein lasik something. Im... Same thing? Same thing. Gam ein lasik. Why? ... lasikam. Okay, here. Let's see Mishnah Berurah, sif katan lamed aleph. Comes along the Mishnah Berurah and says like this, right? D'ein muchanin lasik klal. Why are you not allowed to do this? Because they're not muchan lasik klal. She'ein derech klal lhaniach ochelim al eish, ma she'ein kein b'keilim. Ltzorech ochel bYontif, efshar lasik lifamim b'keilim, b'keilim chutz. Ochel... Here. Let's say a person—I'm already becoming a mashal. You don't even know the mashalim. Let's say a person prepared a gozim to make on Yontif. Prepared a gozim. Says the mechaber, you hear? Says the mechaber. Yeah. ... Gam ein lasik... What does it say? Gam ein lasik? Im, I told you, im, I told you, im. Okay. Im... ... Here. Let's say you want to make chestnuts on Yontif, all right? Chestnuts. You want to take the peanuts and bake them on Yontif, okay? Comes along the Mechaber, and he says, Sheketiim v'egozim, right, she'achlum Erev Yontif, masikin b'klipaihen b'Yontif. If they ate them on Yontif, ein masikin b'klipaihen. If you eat it on Yontif, you can't be masikin b'klipaihen. Says the Rama, gam ein lehasik im ha'egozim ha'sheketiim atzmam, ela im kein, heim adayin b'klipah. Unless they're still b'klipah. Meaning like this: the klipah v'egoz itself, the klipah v'egoz itself, is it normal to put into the fire and bake? It's not normal. People don't do it. So just because you prepared the egozim to eat it and to make it on the fire, it doesn't mean the klipah is included. That's the distinction. Comes along the Mishnah Berurah and explains it. The ein ochlinim la'sik klal, she'ein derech klal haniach ochlin al ha'esh. It's not normal, they don't put food on the fire. Mash'ein kein b'keilim, if they need to eat them b'Yontif, efshar l'hasik pamim b'keilim hameluchanim chutz. Now, mihu, b'Yerushalmi, it is mutar l'hasik b'Yerushalmi arc. Here comes along the Sha'ar HaTziyun and he explains. Says the Sha'ar HaTziyun, Beis Yosef, b'biur divrei haBeis Yosef, hu davar chadash im davar shemutar b'tiltul asur b'hesek. It comes out that it's mutar b'tiltul, that's asur b'hesek. You hear the kasha? The Beis Yosef says that you're allowed to move it, you're allowed to move it, but you can't put it in the fire. I don't understand. Then if you didn't prepare it from Erev Yontif, the klipah, then you shouldn't be allowed to move it. That's the Beis Yosef's kasha. But what's the Shulchan Aruch say? You already prepared it? You have that egozim, right? You prepared it to eat. You prepared them to eat, but not the klipah. There's a whole diyun in Shulchan Aruch, the Rama, the Mechaber, yeah, where, when, what do you do with the klipah? Says the klipah is not allowed. Comes along the Shibolei, brings that there's a machlokes. Some say yes, some say not. This, this there is a machlokes. The machlokes, tenuyah. Let me see. Look at the Beit Yosef. What was the Beit Yosef? The Yosef asked this first kasha. He doesn't understand the sugya. Why? Yeah, he brings it down. Shach brings it down. Magen Avraham, b'biur deRabbeinu Yosef. That's how the Magen Avraham explains Beit Yosef. U'mikom makom, says the Shach, I don't understand, zehu davar chadash, she'im tza davar shemutar b'tiltul, ve'asur b'hespek. Comes out that it's mutar b'tiltul. You're allowed to move it, yeah, but you're not allowed to burn it. Then everybody asks, what's the pshat? Maybe... If it's mutar, meaning you didn't prepare to use it, so then how are you allowed to move it in the first place? What's the... What do you see from it? You see that you have to be meichen each thing separately.

Each thing has to be muchan separate. It shayach to be muchan for tofel and not muchan for hasakah. Can I help with what it says in here? This is what the mashal is saying. I'm already confused. Mashal is saying, I'm already confused. Whatever you were meichin it for, then it becomes hechsher for that thing. That's exactly what he's saying. That's what gives it a שם כלי. Are you with me? Not so much. I don't feel it. No, no, no, no, no. That's what I said. No, ready. The ... gives it. Hachanah that a person makes for this gives it a hechsher for this. That's it. It's not pshat it changes what type of kli it is. It's not a din on the kli; it's a din on what you're allowed to use it for. That's why you're allowed to use the meduchah for the door, because it's made for the door. It's muchan for the door. If you look carefully, the mashal quotes this. Look at hafsakah. The mashal brings it down, hafsakah ... Look at the mashal. No, no, no, no, no, let's move. How is he ... from here? He brings it. That's what the mashal is bringing. No, explain how it's from the ... That's the sugya. No. ... But in order to be matzui l'maaseh, what do you need? You need that it should be ... that it's ... if you do it. Therefore there's no heter. Okay, right. Okay, that's mashma is right. Okay. I'll tell you what I'm going to do. Let me tell you what I'm going to do. Okay, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do. Listen to me. Okay, let me tell you. It's very, very simple. Let me tell you what I'm going to do. Obviously we only have ten more minutes left. Let me tell you what we're going to do. I'm asking you to do a little homework. Can we do a little homework a little bit? Please, I ask you, do the Marsha, do the Chasam Sofer, and do this din in Shulchan Aruch. That's all. That's all you have to do. Tomorrow— no, I'm continuing now, but you'll soon see how we'll continue. It's tof kuf ayin, tof kuf aleph, se'if zayin. What you do is like this: do the Shulchan Aruch, the Mechaber, and the Rama, Magen Avraham, the Mishnah Berurah, and the Shaar HaTziyun. That's all you have to do. Let's do it. Come in. I don't want to spend more than five minutes on this tomorrow. Let's do it. What do I have to— I'll tell you exactly what I have to do. When you look at Rabba's teretz to Reb Eliezer, what was Rabba's teretz to Reb Eliezer? What he told, he told him one thing. He told him, No. Actually, tomorrow. Tomorrow is not enough time. Tomorrow. First you do the mashal. You do the mashal. You do the Chasam Sofer and you do the Shulchan Aruch. Tomorrow you'll see. I'll explain to you. Just do the facts. Come in tomorrow prepared, okay? Can we do this tomorrow? Can you come in prepared, yeah? Not that much homework, okay? Just do it. Know the Shulchan Aruch, okay? When you see Rabba, okay, I think two things. I think Rabba is b'chelek of Reb Eliezer b'yesod, and I think also Rabba's teretz. Every teretz is really all one teretz. It's all one teretz, yeah? What's pshat, all one teretz? When the Gemara answers, ipush, what was the Gemara's teretz? The answer is only, l'yapeish. It's only a question of making it not ipush. What happened? You don't need it, right? Yeah, but it's a keli shemalachto l'heter, right? The Rabbaz comes along with a chiddush and says, from here we learn out, since a keli shemalachto l'heter, even shelo l'tzorech is asur. Even though it's a keli shemalachto l'heter. That's how the Rabbaz learns. What?

Remember the Baal HaMaor. It's very shayach that it's not mukhach from this thing, and I'll tell you why. When the Gemara says ipush, and the Gemara says that it's possible to do without it, you know what the Gemara means? Since you could do without it, so therefore in the kli itself, when you have a kli, it doesn't give it its melachas heter because you don't need it. Meaning, when the Gemara says a keli shemelachto l'heter, a keli shemelachto l'heter, so what are you thinking? You're thinking to yourself it should become muktzah all the way. That's Reb Eliezer's shita. Now, Reb Eliezer's shita is once a keli is a keli shemelachto l'heter, automatically it should become muktzah. So how come all these kelim are aser? It has to be before the— comes along Rabba and he says, you don't understand. Even a keli shemelachto l'heter, sheyesh pshat is it has to be— each thing has to be separate. You need a special heter. That's what he's answering. So, A, by the Gemara of ipush, since be'emes it's not really needed, so therefore the pshat is the hachanah, that you gave it. Be'emes it's not— it's tzorech. There's no tzorech to it. What does it mean no tzorech? Here, take the necheni. What's the necheni shita? Even a keli shemelachto l'heter is only l'tzorech koi. You're only allowed to use l'tzorech koi. I use a keli shemelachto l'heter— Why is it only if it's l'tzorech koi? Meaning, whatever the keli, whatever it is, has on it the heter. The opposite. For the Mechem, you see that the cheftz, l'tzorkei shelakli, which means the kli has to be the Nechemya. The Nechemya said that a kli is mutar l'tzorko. What does the Nechemya mean? The Nechemya means that the kli is only mutar l'tzorko. I, I have a tzorech in it? We don't care about it, because the Nechemya is learning that— What do you mean, like Rabba? What is— Only if you need it, the kli. You missed the point. I thought this would go much easier. It's very simple. The marsha is the key to the machlokes of Reb Eliezer and Rabba, which means Reb Eliezer learned that a keli, it's shem kli, and its toras heter have nothing to do with each other. It's shem—whatever the shem kli is, you can have a toras heter from yachid for heter. Comes along Reb Eliezer and says he's always meyachid for heter; he has a tzorech in it. Therefore it has to be kli. Rabba is coming back to him and saying, No, I argue with you. I argue whatever the toras kli, that toras kli is what gives it its shem heter. If it's a keli shemelachto l'issur, then it would have to remain a keli shemelachto l'issur, unless you change the toras kli. That's why each case, each teretz is really all the same teretz. What's the teretz? You don't need it. What's the teretz? You don't need it. What's the teretz from the Nechemya? All this is the same teretz. You know what it is? That whatever gave it its toras kli has to give it its toras heter. It can't be the tereshetic because you need it. Are these kohanim made for the korban Pesach? Are these kohanim made for the, for the, for the ... of the kli, of the... No. These are kohanim in Gerabi, you don't even need them. So what if it has a shem kli, has a shem kli, nothing to do with it. This didn't give it its shem kli. The heter has to come from the shem kli. ... explaining in Reb Eliezer. Glustera, Reb ... explaining glustera before Rabba came along. So Rabba comes along and says, No. How can it be that the Torah's kli comes from one thing and the heter comes from you need it? What does that mean? Exactly, that's the machlokes of Reb Eliezer and Rabba. You got it, huh? Without knowing the ... well, you got it. Okay, let me tell you, let me tell you, like, matzinu kama keilim b'mishnayos, a few different mishnayos that you're not allowed to move on Shabbos. What are the cases? The cases are: kanim, maklos, glustera, and maducha. All this mishnayos tell us you're not allowed to move on Shabbos. You're not allowed to move on Shabbos. Pesach, Beis Hamikdash, everything falls away. It's Shabbos, yeah? I need it to be machshir the korban Pesach.

Do it another way. I, I need to put my lechem, kanim of the mizbeach, of the lechem hapanim. Don't worry, leave it alone, okay? All this is... comes Reb Eliezer, and he says, Why do all the melachos heter? He's all the melachos heter. Says Reb Eliezer, it has to be kodem mataras keilim. That this was קודם פירולי למתיר כלים, and the chachamim. Today, Reb Eliezer, since this was keilim shemelachtam l'heter, today it's mutar. Good? Reb Eliezer said that all these keilim are asur on Shabbos, it's because it was before we were matir keilim. Once we're matir keilim... Right? Because originally when we assered keilim, we were matir through. Comes along Rabba, and he says, Dilma loi leimloch. Maybe I'll tell you differently. Meaning, really it's aser, and each case I have a teretz why it's asur. So before we get to each case, I want to be medayek in the Gemara. Rabba amar—what does Rabba say? Amar Rabba, mimai. Mimai means meheicha teisi, right? Mimai. Rabba comes along and says, Mimai. What does mimai mean? Mimai means meheicha teisi. The wording is, lav davka I'm cholek on you. It doesn't mean I argue with you, but I'm just saying you that say like this, I could say with my... All I'm saying is from the Gemara. Rabba, not necessarily is arguing because he feels that he has to argue with this. Mimai, what is the translation of mimai? Mimai, just means you say like this. You know, that's all I'm saying. We don't know yet. We don't know yet. I'm just telling you. So far, from the words the Gemara, all you see what he was doing was saying mimai. Meicha teisa? You say like this, efshar pakar, like I told you the story, lai lefuk. And if you look further, notice that he says dilma. He doesn't even say vadai. What's the next word, dilma, maybe, meaning, I don't necessarily argue with Reb Eliezer. He's just saying Reb Eliezer, maybe it's like this, dilma. Le'olam eima lecha. What's le'olam eima lecha? Le'olam eima lecha means also vaiser. I could say to you it's only shonos of ulai yecholin lagiz. That's all it is. And if you take it a little further, the Gemara later says efshar k'Reb Eliezer. See a little further, when he wants to answer that the case of korban Pesach, what does he use the word? Efshar k'Reb Eliezer. When he wants to say that it's not difficult from the story of korban Pesach, what word does he use? Efshar k'Reb Eliezer. Again, no, no, efshar k'Reb Eliezer doesn't mean he holds like Reb Eliezer. Efshar, it could be done like Reb Eliezer. No, the way Reb Eliezer said the case could be done, so we could say efshar k'Reb Eliezer, it could be done like Reb Eliezer. You don't see here barur, barur. The only time I see barur is the last thing, when he comes and says, maducha, he doesn't say efshar ... Here he says ... Because the emes is about such a big deal, and I'll tell you why. It does not explain. ... Even a talis, even a talis. A talis is also different type of beged, something which is mamash miyuchad. A talis, could you get more heter than a talis? Still it's only mutar lavash. That's how far it goes. Even a talis is only mutar only for wearing it. That's in the mechanech. So the Gemara says, maducha, the mechameh. Maducha is ... the mechameh. Here he's not saying ... in the ... It doesn't bother me so much, because could be he's after he finished saying, ... he's just saying, he means to say if this is Reb Eliezer. Not that vadai has to be Reb Eliezer. Okay. Actually it could be done like Reb Eliezer. Yeah, I see, but don't say it that way. Just say it. It could be done like Reb Eliezer. This could be answered, this could be this, this could be—it's all this. The only time he says vadai is in the last piece, maducha is the ... It doesn't mean much. It means after we just said ... everything, Reb Eliezer. All I'm asking is a question, because Rabba...

Now you and Reb Eliezer, who does Rabba agree with, Reb Eliezer. Meaning, he's telling you, Reb Eliezer, say like this: I challenge you, have shefaches, lai lefuk. What do I want from this? The emes is, he spoke out a Rambam, right? Just quickly, just to point out. I mean, the Rambam paskens pretty much like the first shita of the teretz of Rabba, right? Meaning that the case of the mareches is patur on Shabbos, even after, lachar hataras keilim, which is not like Reb Eliezer. But l'maaseh, everything else, we do pasken like Reb Eliezer, right? We goster and all these things, we do pasken like Reb Eliezer, huh? We pasken like Rabba, not like Reb Eliezer. The Rambam—you saw that it's asur, even b'zman hazeh, asur. On everything else, we pasken like Reb Eliezer, and we don't pasken—we definitely don't pasken like Reb Nechemya, right? Obviously we pasken like Reb Eliezer, because we don't answer—the case of maducha is not Reb Eliezer, Reb Nechemya; we don't say that at all. And since he paskens one of the terutzim of Rabba, right? No, מצד אחד they must argue a little bit, but מצד שני, it doesn't mean that it's a complete machlokes on everything, right? Because then he wouldn't be able to pick and choose, right? Now obviously the Rambam is picking and choosing, that's what I'm proving. Again, what do we have from the Rambam? One thing. Here it comes. It's very nice, I'm telling you, today shiur is very nice. You'll have big hanaah from it. Listen carefully. You still have the Mashiach stuff over there. From the Rambam, we see that the Rambam picks and chooses. Here he paskens like Rabbeinu in every place else; he paskens like ... You know, definitely he paskens like the Mechaber. This is one point I want to point out. Huh? ... Don't go out. Just don't go out. Okay, now, my question to you is like this: Let's now read inside the Rashi. Let's read how Rashi learns the Gemara. It says Rashi like this: Glustera. So before we continue, Rashi's girsa in our Gemara is glustera. I want to tell you that the emes in the Mishnah is not glustera. I told you yesterday, it's klustera. Right, klustera. The real girsa in the Mishnah is—oh, that's what you say. Rishonim say different. No, no, not ... I mean, listen, believe me, I respect you very much. I was learning your Torah. I know, but the Rishonim ... I told you, as soon as you showed me klustera, I know ... I knew right away there was something wrong. I'm not ... not negating. Listen, yeah, klustera. You see the Mishnah? Right, we're learning pshat, okay? What is the trick? The trick is pshat, the first words, okay? So far, so far we learned which words? Which words, think about it, we learned? Dimai, dilma, eima lecha, efshar, right? We learned all those Rishonim. Now we're learning the next word, glustera. What is glustera? So first of all, the Mishnah is called a glustera to begin with. What is glustera? רבי יהושע אומר שומטה, בפסח זה ותולה לה בחברה בשבת, ורבי פפא אומר הרי היא ככל הכלים, ומטלטלת בחצר. What does that mean? Meaning that this case of glustera, okay. The Mishnah in Keilim never said glustra. It's important to know that, right? I mean, you're quoting this Mishnah. This Mishnah is this, right? The Mishnah doesn't say it. The Mishnah says glustra. Now, what l'ma'aseh? The nafkamina is the machlokes. So Rashi comes along and says like this: Glustrach is the key. Glustra is the maducha. That's what he says. Glustra — notice Rashi's glustra — sheroisha av v'roi l'doch bo. And I told you yesterday the diyuk is what? Roi. It's not meant for it, but it's roi l'doch bo. It's really a lock. That's what it is. No, no, everybody knows what it is. It's a simple thing. Roi l'doch bo. It's the thing that you lock a door with. So since it's roi l'doch bo, okay, that's called glustra. That's glustra b'reisha. It has a glustra at the end of it. Rashi: sheroisha av v'roi l'doch bo. And it's roi to do what? It's roi to... Now, that's roi. No one's a diyuk in lashon Rashi. That's how it's made for, but it's fit for it. What is it asui l? What do they do? They lock a house.

You come and you look at the Rishonim, okay? The Rishonim say something completely different. Klustera. What's klustera? If you take a look, the Rambam brings the Mishnah Klustera. The Rambam brings down one klustera. Okay, read it, go ahead. What's the case? What's klustera? Rambam himself explains it, and he explains it even more. What's klustera? Go ahead, read it. No, no, no, read, no.