Kibbud Av VaEim: Saying a Parent’s Name, Titles of Respect, and Halachic Exceptions

Transcript

This Torah class is brought to you by TorahAnytime.com. B'ezras Hashem, we're going to speak about the halacha in Hilchos Kibud Av Va'eim. We all know that there's two chiyuvim min haTorah about kibud av va'eim. One is the chiyuv kavod, and the other one is the chiyuv mora. You have to have kavod for your parents, and you have to have mora for your parents. Different things are part of kavod, and different things are part of mora. Kavod is mechayev certain things, and mora is mechayev certain things. Shulchan Aruch, siman reish mem, tzarich lizar me'od bichvod aviv v'imo uv'moraam. Kavod and mora. There's two parts to kibud av va'eim. There's kavod and mora. This is the first halacha that the mechaber begins the halachos of kibud av va'eim. Yesod. What's part of kavod and what part of mora? So the Shulchan Aruch follows that introduction. Eizeh mora? Halacha beis: lo ya'amod bimkomo hamyuchad lo, you cannot stand in his place, o makom hamyuchad lo l'spalel, or a place where he davens; you can't be in his makom kavua. One of the things that the Shulchan Aruch... Of course, based on the Gemara, tell us that you're mechuyiv, מצד the din of kibud av va'em, and that is, v'lo yikrenu bishmo. You're not allowed to call your father by his name. If your father's name is Chaim, of course you're not allowed to address him, Chaim. You can't say, Chaim, how are you? Chaim, do you want something to drink? That's this halacha, v'lo yikrenu... you can't call him bishmo. Now, loi b'chayav v'loi b'moisoi. So obviously, we're not referring to only addressing him straight to his face, because if it was that, then it wouldn't be b'moisoi, right? Unless maybe it means you go to the beis hakvaros and you talk to the... Chayim doesn't mean that, right? I don't think b'moisoi means that you're talking directly to him. So obviously, we have to broaden lo yikrenu bishmo. It doesn't mean directly to him, but every time you speak of him, obviously, right? Because otherwise, b'moisoi doesn't apply. If it means lo yikrenu, you can't call him and address him directly in his name, so what's b'moisoi? So obviously it means when I talk of him and about him. We'll talk about that. That's what the shiur is about. V'loi b'chayav v'loi b'moisoi, ela omer, Abba Mori. So Abba is not enough. You can't just say Abba. You have to say, Abba Mori, my father, my master. The Shulchan Aruch continues and elaborates. That this halacha actually is even more than just speaking to him and speaking about him. But even if I speak to someone else, not my father and not about my father, someone else I'm talking to who has the same name as my father, I'm also not allowed to say the name of that person. Haya shem aviv k'shem acherim, if the name of the father is the same name as others, meshaneh shmam. So he's got to change the name of that person. So if my father's name is David, I can't say in the room, Hey, David, not referring to my father. I'll have to say Chveis Dovidel or Dov, Dov. I have to say something to change the name. Now, im hu shem shehu peli, but that's only if it's a name that's not common. For example, Avram is common, right? Chaim is common, right? Yisrael is common. So if I call my friend Yisrael and my father is Yisrael, not so bad, not a problem, all right? But if he has a unique name that nobody else has, like one of these interesting names from Tanach, they pick a name.

Kasriel, maybe, I don't know, something which is not common. So I can't call Kasriel my friend, Kasriel, because my father has the same name. Aval, says the Rama, shem shehargilin bo mutar likros acherim shelo bifanav. But a name that others are common with it, you could call shelo bifanav. Okay, so let's delve into this halacha of krias shem aviv and see how it applies in different scenarios and different cases. So let's begin by a ha'arah that was bothering me for many years. The Shulchan Aruch talks about a father, haya shem aviv k'shem acherim. Now he spoke about a mother. How come the Shulchan Aruch doesn't say if my mother's name is so-and-so, I can't call her that, I can't refer to her with that, I can't be talking about her in her name, I can't call others in that, only by a father. Something bothered me, and I always understood, maybe it's self-understood because it's the same halacha, tzarich lizaren b'kavod aviv v'imo, uv'moiram. So moira includes not to call your father's name, so of course it means the mother as well. I've grabbed this one in the Chayadah, in Klal samach-zayin, se'if ches. He speaks out this halacha both, father and mother. So l'choira you have to say hu hadin. Even though in Shulchan Aruch it's only mentioned father, father, mother is the same halacha, there should really be no difference. There's a chiyuv kavod to moira to both. The question, of course, is in the Torah. We find that people mention their father by their name. Likee Avi Avram, Likei Yitzchak, right? Pachad Yitzchak hayah li. Yaakov talks about his father Yitzchak, that that's how you... And the Torah, it's clear that people mention their father's name when they spoke about their father. Now, I don't think we have anywhere where he spoke directly. I don't have, I don't recall anywhere in the Torah where somebody spoke to his father directly and he called him, addressing him by his name. But definitely when he spoke of him, when he spoke about a father, in the Torah it's all over. So the mefarshim address this question. Different terutzim that are said, that maybe they themselves didn't address the father, but they're not going to write in the Torah Abba Mori, right? They're not going to say that, Pachad Abba Mori hayah li. The Torah went and changed it to Pachad Yitzchak hayah li. It's a good shaylah, because we have to know that whenever there was conversations in the Torah, were those the words that the people themselves said, or is it possible that they get changed based on the way the Ribbono Shel Olam wanted the Torah should be written? It's a big discussion, I don't want to go into. Al kol panim, this is the kasha from the Chumash. But there's a kasha from the Rishonim that the Acharonim, the poskim address, and that is: we find that the Tur quotes Adoni avi harosh, quotes his father, my father, Adoni avi harosh, k'seder. So the question is... How was he able to address his father? Daini avi harosh. So the Aruch HaShulchan in Reish Mem Yud Daled addresses this question. He addresses this question. Chayra, how was he able? And he brings from the Yam Shel Shlomo that already asked this kasha. Now, there's two things that we have to understand. The teretz of the Aruch HaShulchan is that actually he never said his father's name. His father's name was Osher. Harosh is not Osher. Harosh is the acronym of his name. So you see from the kasha that that's still a problem. L'choira, otherwise the kasha doesn't even begin. He didn't say Osher. It's the name that he's called, and that's already a problem. L'choira, you could come and say the problem is to say Osher, not to say Harosh. Harosh is an acronym. The teretz that the Aruch HaShulchan gives: Harosh was a title of honor. He was called the Rosh. So it's not addressing him by his surname, so to speak, or his personal name, but addressing him by his honorable title name. And he said that that's actually what Harosh means: Rosh kol shekol Bnei haGolah. Part of—

You're right, it's an acronym of Rosh. It's an acronym of Rosh, Rabbeinu Osher, but it's also rosh, the master. So it's b'derech kavod. So this Aruch HaShulchan is a good introduction to the whole seif. You see that when you mention your father's name, yet it's with a title or an aberration of respect, then it's not a problem, right? So l'choira you see from this Aruch HaShulchan, it depends how it's said. If it's said commonly, the name is spoken out commonly, that's a problem. But if it's done b'derech kavod, it's mutar. For example, let's say Rabbi Yankif and Reb Moishe. That was almost their title on the book. Reb Moishe, that's the name of the book, right? The ArtScroll book is Reb Moishe. The ArtScroll book is Reb Yankif. It almost became their title. So would a child allow to say Rabbi Yankif? It's a nice ha'ara. Unless maybe the Rosh was not Osher. He didn't say the actual name, he said the acronym, and therefore, but it was mutar even though the world called him the Rosh. L'maaseh, it's not their actual name, and since it's not the actual name, even though the whole world called him that, but since it's b'derech kavod, it's mutar. But to actually say the name, even though he was lovingly and respectfully referred to that, Rabbi Yankif, it still doesn't mean that that's mutar. It's a nice ha'ara. Now, third person is part of the sheilah, really. Reb Yankiv. Let's see, when you say, you say, My father, so my father is mine, right? It's my father. But you say Reb Yankiv, it's almost like third person, even though you're saying his name, right? Why don't we talk third person to our parents? Just like by a Rebbe, Rav, yeshiva, today we say the Rav, the Rosh Yeshiva. I don't know if they say it today, but they should be saying hakpadan, right? They speak third person. Good sheilah, always bothered me, right? Why don't we talk in reverence, third person, to our parents? I saw this sheilah for the first time in the Aruch HaShulchan. Aruch HaShulchan addresses the sheilah in Reish Mem Beis, se'if lamed ches. He says, A Rebbe, the minhag is to refer to him as third person. He says, We don't do that by parents, father, mother, brother. I'm also going to get to a brother in a minute. We don't refer to them in third person. And he says, Because that's not what we do. And anyone who does it is min ha-matmia, he's doing something weird and strange, and people who are going to see are going to say, Eh, it's not. Parents you address, brothers and sisters you address, nochach. So there was two ha'aros that I'd like to point out. First of all, you could say, first of all, why? I mean, just because nobody does it doesn't mean it makes it right. I remember I once saw a teshuva, I don't know if it's printed in the Igros Moshe, but I remember when I was in yeshiva in Staten Island, they gave out this teshuva, that the Rosh Yeshiva zatzal did not like the canvas sukkahs. I don't want to go into sukkahs nor canvas sukkahs right now, but he didn't like it. He had issues with it. In the teshuvah he writes that someone's going to say, Well, everybody does it. So he says, So what? That doesn't make it right. Just because everybody, right? He says, Ela mai, whoever originally started it mustama got a hashgacha from above. He says, Who says? Maybe the guy put out such a kehillah sukkah and it became a commodity, it became a common thing. It became part of business. Doesn't mean it's right. Doesn't make it right. So the shailah in the Aruch HaShulchan is, what is he saying? Is he saying that it's just not done, and maybe that's not respectful to talk to your parents that way because that's not the respectful way to talk to your parents now anymore? Since it's all about how you respect your parents, and parents are not spoken to this way, it's not normal, so then it would be disrespectful or strange. Maybe that's what he means, right? Could be the Aruch HaShulchan means that. Or maybe we could come and say that he just means, fakert, it's not done, so it's not done. Mustama the olam knows what they're doing. And the nafka mina maybe would be, let's say when there's nobody around, I don't know, you talk to your parent, nobody around, you say, Does father want a drink? Does father want to—I should go? Maybe, I don't know. Or else maybe, possibly, this I think is the real pshat, it's taka not the right way to talk to your parent because you is direct, and parents you talk to direct.

Like we find by tefillah, Baruch Atah, and the mefarshim ask, how can you talk to Hashem, You? You should say they, or—don't say you. Tefillah is direct. Atah. It's not direct in glatt; you speak, grud, you speak straight, right? So it could be that's what he means. The lashon noichach of the Aruch HaShulchan is, a father, you talk directly. You start talking third person, it takes away from the kesher, the kesher nafshi, the relationship. It's a relationship of noichach. It's Atah direct, meglaich. You speak straight, me, you, heart to heart, face to face. We don't need any, any— which is what is said by tefillah, and maybe that's what the Aruch HaShulchan means. And therefore, even if nobody sees and nobody knows, and maybe if you feel nicer and more comfortable to do it that way, maybe it's not the right thing to do. But there's an interesting point that I saw in the Aruch HaShulchan. He says we don't talk to fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters that way, because there's a halacha of lo yikrenu bishmo by achan hagadol. Chorer, there's the same halacha, kibud es avicha v'es imecha, es l'rabboi, es achicha hagadol. So maybe achicha hagadol, you shouldn't mention his name. You shouldn't talk to him, calling him by his name, maybe. So the emes is, we could come and say, mora. Mora is not to mention the name. Kavod, it's not kavod, it's mora. And we'll soon see this could be big nafka minas in cases where there's no chiyuv kavod, there's no chiyuv mora, but there's only a chiyuv kavod. For example, in-laws. There's a chiyuv kavod, there's no chiyuv mora. Are you allowed to address your in-laws? By their name. We could talk about it in a few moments. So maybe there's a chiyuv kavod, kavod es l'rabos achicha hagadol, kavod, but not mora. Be afraid of your older brother. Maybe you are anyway. It's very possible. But that's nisht gevalt in the Torah, it says, you know? Okay? So therefore maybe this—nice one, the Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish is already me'orer the she'eilah, and he answers like Derech Chashuv, we just don't see it. It's not done. The fact that it's not done, מסתמא it's ayin Chazon Ish. Okay? So this is the ha'arah that l'choirah, minhag will play a role in this halacha of lo yekrenu bishmo. So let me again be magdim to you the two hakdamos that I gave you, because I think they'll open up the entire sugya. The first hakdamah is that when I address my father, if it's b'derech kavod, even though I'm saying his name in the way I'm talking or the way I'm talking about him, but if there's a b'derech kavod involved, if it's done in a glowing way or a respectful, honorable, kavodik way, then it's not a problem. That's that Derech Chashuv. And the second thing is minhag plays a big role too. Whatever the minhag is, whatever the custom is, so m'meila it's normal, so m'meila it's not a bizayon, it's not a problem. You know, it's interesting. Yeshiva in the teshuvos R' Moshe, Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah chelek aleph, siman kuf lamed gimmel, talks about mechilah. It's a whole big discussion, you know, because this l'choirah plays into what we just spoke. You know, if the parents are mochel, so that's part of what's normal, you know. Here, we don't get up every time a parent walks into a room 20 times, right? Every time he walks back and forth, we don't get up, right? Why? Because it's mechilah. He's mochel. It's normal. It is what it is, right? Mechilah, chayra, should play part of this also, right? And what's normal makes it mechilah, right? L'choira, that's also part of mechilah. There's a Stei Chemed that says that a likra aviv b'shmoi is not shayach to mechilah. Even if the father is mochel, he's still not allowed to call him by his name. Why? Because it's not about kavod; it's about mora. So kavod, he can be mochel. Avshal machal al kevodo, kevodo machul. But avshal machal al moro, you can't. Mora is there anyway. Mora is a chiddush. So that would be a zilzul. See, it's two sugyas. There's one is you have to go out of your way to proactively mechabed him, but you also want—there's another problem—to be mezalzel. So if this is about mora, which means it's not that I'm mechabed him, I'm proactively being mechabed; rather, being mezalzel by calling him by his name, mechilah won't help for that. L'choira, the Acharonim don't seem to take this halacha of the Stei Chemed, halacha l'maaseh. And like I said, if it's normal, whatever the norm is, there's a chashash zilzul. Can't call it a zilzul, right?

Even if you hold lahalacha what the Steichemet says, it's zilzul by calling him the name, and hav shamachul doesn't help for that. But maybe if it's normal, this is the normal shteiger — Yiddish expression — the normal shteiger, the normal way, the derech, it's not a zilzul. Yeah. So this is a very important hakdamah to the sugya. Let me also add to you another piece of information, part of the shaylah. There's a Radbaz, okay? The Radbaz says that in case I add the word Abba, or in case I add the word Rav, then it's mutar, because I'm giving him a chashivus, a title. There's a machlokes in Acharonim how does this Radbaz apply. Does it apply when it's befanav, that even befanav if I add a title, or chashuv — for example, I say Abba Chaim, Rav Chaim, Rav David — or that would only help me shelo befanav, which means when I talk about him not in front of his face. If I add the word Rav or I add the word Abba, it's good enough, but befanav that wouldn't work. So the Yam Shel Shlomo says that that's only shelo befanav, but befanav it wouldn't help. There's a third tzad in Acharonim that even with a toar, even with a title. You can never mention your father's name. The Igros Moshe, Rav Moshe in Yoreh Deah chelek aleph siman kuf lamed gimmel, says, b'etzem, if you're able, you should never mention your father's name, period. You should try to be machmir never to say, say befanav, say shelo befanav, say b'tohar. Aber lhalacha l'maaseh, the minhag ha'olam is that in a case he wants to, he's allowed to say his father's name, shelo befanav, as long as he adds a title. What's a nigea l'maaseh, rabosai, practically? A lot of times, you have, let's say, three brothers, and you're a child of one of the brothers, okay? People are going to ask you, Whose are you? Whose son are you? Are you this one? So you say, I'm Chaim's son, I'm David's son, I'm Beryl's son, right? You're not allowed to do l'chatchilah, right? So according to the teshuva of the Rosh Yeshiva, if you want, you could say maybe I'm Harav this one's son, or Abba of this, right? That's—but you can't say his name. You can never say, I'm David's son. A lot of people did it. It's customarily, it's been done, and people are not makpid on this. I do want to point out that if it's not mutar, you're over one of the aseres hadibros. It's not a—people don't chap. This is not just a shailah of chumra in Hilchos chevzas. This, rabosai, is moira, and if you don't do it, you can be mezalzel b'aviv. You're over moira, which is one of the aseres hadibros. So you got to take it with a chumra. So even if we're going to discuss heterim and heterim. No, these are Torahmana d'oraisa on an aseres hadibros, okay? Well, we can talk about that in two seconds. Now, over the years, I've asked Gedolei Yisrael, poskim, you know, what's nichlal in title? Title. When you give someone a title. Mister, is Mister a title? Everybody's a mister. That's almost not a chashivus to be. Or Reb, everybody's Reb, right? Reb doesn't mean anything. What does it mean? Reb Chaim, Reb Yisrael, it doesn't—Mister this one, so what? Now, mistama, mistama, I mean, the last name's not a problem. If I say, my father is Mister so-and-so, I guess that's not his name. It's the family name. It's the surname, you know, it's different, right? Surname is the family name, right? Mister, meaning Mister so-and-so, it would be the surname, right? But what about his private name? I don't know, you say Mister Yisrael, Mister David, or Reb David, I don't know. I've asked Gedolei Yisrael over the years, could I include a Mister and a Reb in the Rabbanus heter? I would tell you that it means nothing to me, you know. People get invitations, Rabbi so-and-so, and believe you me.

If they're rabbis, then I'm the mister, okay? If they're rabbis, I'd rather you send me invitations calling me mister. I'm shayches, yeah? Basically, I don't know if it means anything to call somebody a rabbi today. Basically, okay. I was thinking once, and I spoke it over with poskim, it could be, if I come and I say I'm the son of so-and-so, that would be a problem. But if I say my father is, that could be better. Why? Because the Ramban says as long as I give him the title Abba, so it's mutar. So I always thought maybe this could be the way around it. Someone asks you, whose son are you? Don't say I'm the son of so-and-so, but say it the other way around: My father is, and then it's mutar. And what would be the cheshbon? I don't know, when I say father, do I mean just l'maaseh he's my father, or maybe it's just a chashivus, Abba. Maybe not. Maybe it's not just father; it's just the fact is he's my father. It's not a title. Maybe not, because l'maaseh, if you say Abba, the Ramban says it's okay, ulai yesh l'chalek. Maybe there's a makom to be meikel if I come and I say my father is so-and-so instead of saying I'm the son of so-and-so. Now it's interesting, chaveiroi, if his friend has the same name. So in this community, right, you have a problem because the grandchildren are named after the fathers, right? Each person names his kid after. So what do you do? You're sitting at a Shabbos table. The grandfather's sitting there. It's a big problem. So I grabbed the sefer. Rabbeinu Tzvi Abishol says that you have to be machmir to give him a different name. You have to call him by a different name. So, for example, if his name is Yisrael, you'll have to go the Ashkenazi route, call him Sruli, I guess. I don't know what. Huh? What? You can't call him Yisrael, right? Your father's standing right there. Unless maybe, pun fakert, I don't know. Maybe father's very proud. He's very happy that his grandson's called Yisrael. So you think so, but Rabbeinu Tzvi Abishol didn't think so. So I guess it's machlokes you and Rabbeinu Tzvi Abishol. I'll hedge my bets with Rabbeinu Tzvi Abishol. It's a good shayla. It's a nice shayla. It's a good makom diyun. But, but if you can figure out some kind of a shinui, but again, you should maybe ask your father in advance if he's maskim to that. You know, another big shayla which comes up: mazel. You know, the Sefardim, every other woman's called Mazel here, right? So can I go over to Mazel and say, Hey, Mazel tov, right? Maybe it's not a problem if I'm adding the word tov, right? When I say the word tov, it's not Mazel, it's Mazel tov. We'll talk about this, that if I add some name, there's a psak from Rav Elyashiv that it's not a problem. So we'll get to that a little bit later. Okay. Now let's discuss in-laws. Could you call your in-laws by their first name? So the truth is, like I just said, there's no chiyuv mora; there's a chiyuv kavod to them, so chayav sheyihye mutar, chayav sheyihye mutar. I saw רבי אלישיב in the teshuvos writes that you can't call your in-laws by their first name. You have to treat them exactly like your parents. Now, I don't know if he meant the halacha or he gave you good advice, because if you start not treating your in-laws like you treat your parents, your Yom Tovim aren't going to look very good. You're going to treat them, right, Pesach, Sukkos, and Shavuos is going to be a disaster. You got to treat them both the same, all right? I don't know. Okay. Now the question is, what happens when somebody calls you up to the Torah, right? Somebody calls you up to the Torah, okay, what's the halacha? Now there's another shaila. Every eid, every eid signs his name with his father's name. So what's the heter for that? How could a person, every eid signs his name, Yisroel ben David? I don't know. So the truth is, there's a big machlokes Acharonim if it's also b'ksav.

Is it only bal peh, by mouth, or it's even b'ksav? Now, l'choira from the Yam Shel Shlomo, that he has an issue with the Rosh that writes, Adoni avi harosh. So you see it's even by writing, right? Otherwise, he wouldn't have had the issue. Darchei Shulchan, that I quote, quotes the Yam Shel Shlomo. Now, what did the Tur say when he said shiur? Maybe he didn't say that. Maybe the Taz didn't address the Rosh, Adoni avi harosh. Maybe he just said Adoni avi. He didn't say Adoni avi harosh. In writing, he wrote it. So from the fact that the Yam Shel Shlomo and the Aruch HaShulchan have to go out of their way to explain it's a title of honor, so then how does every eid ever sign his name? So, rabosai, let's dwell a little further into the sugya, okay? So the first shailah is: you have to get an aliyah, you're saying Chaim ben your father's name. When you're signing a kesubah, right, you're signing an edus anywhere, you're saying what? Again, Chaim ben, you're writing Chaim ben. So what's the heter? So I saw a beautiful teshuvah from Rav Elyashiv, very nice, beautiful teshuvah, which goes to the heart of the sugya. What's the issur? What's wrong with saying your father's name? So there's a Radbaz. I think the Bach also quotes it. He says that the problem is that it looks like you're addressing your father. It's like you're talking to him, and you're saying his name. So according to that, if he's not in the room, Chayer shouldn't be a problem, right? Shouldn't be a problem. He's not, right? Then he bring— then I saw that they bring beautiful yesod. This is— let me just tell you where the Radbaz is. Yeah, Radbaz is, oh, the Bach siman reish mem, levush, Prishah siman reish mem beis. It's all b'shem the Radbaz, okay? That the reason why you're not allowed to call your friend— why you're not allowed to call your friend with the name of your father, because people think you're addressing your father, yeah? There's another pshat, which is based really on a Chida in Dvash L'fi and a few other places, that there's— just like hazkaras shem Shamayim, Hashem's name, if you mention it in vain, shows a lack of respect, so too if you mention your father's name, even if you're talking to somebody else, it's a certain kavod, it's a certain mora, mora, fear. See, he brings from Rav Chaim Palagi, very nice, from Rav Chaim Palagi, Ruach Chaim, siman reish mem, that he brings from the Bina LeItim, that when a person mentions his father's name, he should get up, should stand up. So l'choira, when they have kriyas haTorah and they say Pachad Yitzchak, and your father's name is Yitzchak, he wants you to get up, huh? Shtaket Pachad Yitzchak. That's interesting. You ever see anybody do it? Rav Chaim Palagi, Rav Chaim Palagi. So Rav Chaim Palagi says clearly here. So obviously, what is that? That's a reverence to the name itself. Now, that's a very big chiddush. I'm not going to tell you it's not a chiddush, but we're trying to understand what's the problem if I say my father's name, but I'm not talking to my father or about my father. I'm talking about the other guy. So what's the problem? And the teretz is, people might make a mistake and think that I'm talking to my father. Or just in saying the name of my father, and I'm not afraid to say the name, shows a chisaron of mora, like if I would just walk around saying Hashem's name. Reb Elyashiv says, l'fi zeh we can say me'irich chidushim lahalacha. The first is that if your father has one name or two names, and you only use one of the names, right? He uses only one name. For example, the father is called Yisrael Chaim. You walk around and call your friend Yisrael. Not a problem, right? Because if it's about, people might think that you're addressing your father. Your father is Yisrael Chaim. He says another chiddush, right? Another way too, he says. Let's say his name is, right, one, Chaim, and the other...

If a friend is Chaim Yisrael, also not a problem, right? Which is what I told you, mazel tov. You could say mazel tov; you're adding another name. Rabbi Yashiv says, what happens when a father, lo aleinu, chas v'shalom, gets sick, he's older, they add him a name. So that wasn't the name that people know him by and call him by. It's a name that they added for the mishaberach. So that would be a problem to call a friend with that same name. Why? Because that's not the name that he's called by. Because the whole problem is people might think that you... What about a nickname? If, for example, your father has a nickname. He's never called Chaim, he's never called David, he's called Hevreman, right? Just an example, all right? So as long as you don't—because no one thinks that you're referring to him. Any time you have a question if you're referring to, it should become mutar. So let's go one step further. How about a mishaberach, right? Or let's say they call you up to the Torah and you want to give your father's name. So Rabbi Yashiv told me, of course you can't come and say Chaim ben David, because you're not going to say your father's name, right? So you have to say Chaim ben—and people, what do they say? Reb. Chaim ben Reb David. Again, Reb is also nothing. So you should really say Chaim ben HaRav. Problem is, if he's not really a rav, people think you're crazy, right? People look at you—no, באמת, I've seen it, and I have understood why people do it. People do it because they have a hard time saying their father's name, so they call him HaRav. Maybe he's not a rav. What are you talking about? Right? So what should you say? Unless you say, Chaim ben Avi Moiri David. Yeah? Remember ben. If I come and I say, ben, I'm the son of, that's no good. But if I say my father is, so maybe I could say I'm Avram ben Avi, or maybe I don't even need the Mori. It's a nice shaila. You know, I guess every person what he feels more comfortable. So let me chazer over what we just said. If you think that it's mutar just to say, My name is Chaim ben Yisrael, you got a problem, because you can't say your father's name. So there's a few things you could do. Everyone is Reb, so they add the word Reb. It's like saying Mister Reb. I don't know if that helps you. I don't know if that helps you. Ela mai, Harav, the rabbaz, you have a title, Harav. But maybe he's not a rav. What's—what are you talking? I've seen people do it. They talk about simple people, ben harav, and they do it because they feel uncomfortable, taka, just to say their father's name. Ela mai, what you could do is, you could say ben Avi, or even Avi Mori, right? Maybe you don't need the Mori. As long as you say Avi, it's good enough, because remember I told you, maybe if you say, My father is, or maybe you can be machmir, unless it looks strange. Listen, if you can get away with it, you should say ben Avi Mori. What if your gabai and your father? So it's the same thing. Yes, say Avi Mori. Maybe you shouldn't even say the name. What's the point? It looks weird, because he's not mentioning the name. I said, again, it looks weird, so you say Avi Mori, the name. I don't know, something. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think you'll get away with Reb. And the rav sometimes looks strange, and the avi might be a naf, or maybe not. Maybe you should say avi meiri. Yeah? I know, that's what I'm telling you, since it's— unless you're saying because it's, yeah, but then it would look strange. Is he reb? Is he taka? I don't know. Unless maybe you're right, yeah, since nobody does it, so reb is taka showing you that I'm doing this. Maybe. I can hear. Okay. Ah. So what do we do by the Mishaberach? Mishaberach, ... Yaakov yevarech es avi, right? So by Mishaberach it's a little more complicated. When they call you up to the Torah, it's more of an issue than the Mishaberach. Why? Reb Akiva Eiger, in Aruch Chaim, siman kuf yud tes, quotes a Birkei Yosef, which I think is really originally from a sefer Chassidim, that says that when you daven to the Ribono Shel Olam, when you daven to the Ribono Shel Olam, you cannot say titles about anybody, including your father. Yeah? When you talk to—

The Rabbeinu Shlolam in tefillah. Why? Because klape HaKadosh Baruch Hu, no one is anything. Everything is—you are who you are, and yenashkin groyse toyrim, great things, okay? Humility. Kuf yud tes, Reb Akiva. So the question becomes, when I make a mishaberach, yeah, so should I or should I not say my father's name, right? Because here already it's mishaberach avoseinu Avraham; it's a tefillah, davening to the Rabbeinu Shlolam. Maybe the mishaberach is not mamash tefillah. Okay, so let's discuss mishaberach l'cholim. If I make a mishaberach l'cholim, that's a tefillah, so maybe I shouldn't say the name, right? Maybe I should just say—a lot of people are very makpid—you just say the name without any haravs, without any titles, so who are them by the parents? How about benching? Harachaman hu yevarech es avi mori. Ah, wait a second, I thought you're not supposed to say any titles in tefillah. So Reb Yoshev has a very interesting psak. Reb Yoshev wants to say that there's a chiluk between tefillah and bracha. First he goes to the heart of the sugya. He says it's not the end of the world if you do mishabeach your parents in tefillah. Why? Because the Torah wants you to do that. You're not undermining the Rabbeinu Shlolam by saying your parents are avi mori. The Torah said to mechabed your parents; you're doing what the Eibishter wants. It's not such a big problem. If you want to be machmir, that could be only in tefillah and not in bracha. Benching might be just a bracha, mishaberach. Ah, so let's go back and say there's a chiluk. Could be when I make a mishaberach by the Torah, that's a bracha. So there I could say, Avi, Mori, and give titles. Where it's a mishaberach of choleh, maybe that's a little bit more of a tefillah, where that's where the minhag is not to say any Torah. I shouldn't say any titles of Torah even when I talk about my father. You know, when you walk into an office, they're going to ask you father's name, mother's name. What do you do? So we could come and say, don't say it, just write it, and therefore point to one side. The Acharonim, maybe writing is not such a big problem. Or we could come and say, here, we could come and say, meshaneh, you'll change. Well, you're not going to get the insurance. If they see any shinuyim, any changes in the documentation, the insurance will never pay for you. It's got to be everything. So what do you do? So the truth is, we could come and say there could be an English name is different than a Hebrew name. Yeah, so I have this over the years. I was mistapek over the years about this. I mean, in the shul he's called Chaim and Dovid and this and that, right? Among his peers at home he's Chaim and Dovid. You're right, when he goes out to work, he's... maybe it's a little different, and I'm just using the English name. It's a good shailah. The truth is, there's a heter for all of this, including the signing on the documentation, which will already explain to me why I'm allowed to sign my name as an edus on a kesubah and whatnot, even though I'm saying my father's name. Rabbi Rebelsky used to say over that there's a mahalach that if I'm coming to talk about my father... Then I'm not going to mention his name. But where I'm talking about me, who I am, it's about identifying who I am, then there's no problem of saying my father's name. It's very possible that where I speak him, him, I can't say. So if I make a mishaberach for him, and I got to be careful to what? To say Adoni avi, Mori, or whatever you want to say to take care of the problem. But where I'm talking about me, who am I? Yaakov ben Dovid. So that would be if someone asks you whose son are you, you could say, because you're not talking about him. You're talking about you. When you're signing, you're talking about you. So it would come out a very interesting nafkamina lahalacha, rabboisai. I was thinking about a cute nafkamina. You're making a mishaberach, right? So, the gabai, the first thing he has to say is, Mishaberach ... hu yevarech. When he talks about you, he could say Yisroel ben Dovid, right? Yisroel ben Dovid, right? You tell him, Avushi Yisroel ben... But when he's giving the mishaberach to the father, when he's giving the mishaberach, unless you say a bracha is different, right?

I'm saying pashas a bracha is different than tefillah, so you would have to say Adon Yavin Meiri. Oh, when I say Shemoneh Esrei, I'm saying, Yevarechecha Adon Yavin Meiri, whatever his name is. But if it's the other way around, I'm saying, I am the son of, then it would be mutar, because I'm actually identifying what, who I am, and I'm not trying to say what, anything about him. Why would I tell you a halacha l'maaseh where it's not strange or bizarre? You should try to be machmir, because it's a shaila d'oraisa. It's a shaila of notsaras hadibros. Where it's going to look strange, could you imagine you walk into the office and you say, Mother's name? Father's name? And you start saying, Adon Yavin Meiri. I think they'll take you to a different room in the doctor's office for a different ailment, okay? And they'll think there's something seriously wrong with you, all right? But where you're able to, and it doesn't look strange or bizarre, or it's b'derech kavod, which means I'm using it as a title or something, then I should try to be careful and not say my father's name. There you don't say your father's name. You just say... You've just experienced another Torah class brought to you by TorahAnytime.com.