Hilchos Shabbos: Hatmanah with Foil, Food Bags, and Pot Covers

Transcript

Also l'hatmin b'eis. ... Afilu tavshil she'eino basar kol tzarko, asur l'hatmin b'Shabbos, afilu bedavar she'eino mosif hevel. Mekom makom, lasin keilim al hatafshil kedei leshamro min ha'achbarim, kedei shelo yishtaneh bifrurei shari. If it's just to protect it, then it's mutar. She'ein ze kematmin l'hacham, ela k'sheomer v'nosen kisui al hakedeirah. So there's a very big chiddush here from Reb Shlomo Zalman. Reb Shlomo Zalman wants to ta'ina that if a person takes silver foil and he wraps a kugel or a kishke or whatever and puts it into the cholent, he has no problem, because since it's not meant for hatmana, it's meant only so shelo yishtaneh, it shouldn't get dirty or whatever or to disintegrate, ממילא becomes mutar. But you put before Shabbos. So it's a difference. Here it's talking about in Shabbos. Okay, so the truth is it's the same halacha. Whatever it is, it's not derech hatmana; it's derech shelo yishtaneh. So eruv Shabbos would be asur because it's on the fire. It's on the fire. Since it's on the fire, halacha ches is that it's called mosif hevel, even if the thing itself is not a mosif hevel. Reb Moshe in the teshuva says that if you wrap something with aluminum foil, it's considered hatmana. So the question is, does Reb Moshe cholek on this Reb Shlomo Zalman's psak? Because one says aluminum foil is not a problem, and the other one says aluminum foil is hatmana gemurah. So that's the question. So it's very possible, R' Moshe was talking about when you wrap it up, while Reb Shlomo Zalman was talking about when you just put it into the cholent. R' Moshe could be talking about wrapping something in aluminum foil, putting on a blech. So that's not shelo yistanef. Mashenkein over here could be, it's... yeah. Now, R' Maskowitz quotes in the sefer that Rav David said that be'etzem, that Reb Shlomo Zalman would be maskim to this—I'm sorry, that R' Moshe would have been maskim to the svara of Reb Shlomo Zalman. The only thing is, it's lo brira lei. It's not clear what the kavana really is. Not clear, you know, it's very hard to know, because if you take a look, the Mishnah Berurah brings down, Hainu afilu begadim shema'amidim es hachaim shel hakedeira, afilu hachi shari, keivan she'eino mechaven l'zeh. So it's mashma that he's not mechaven at all for hatmana. So what happens if he's mechaven for both? So it could be it is a problem. Like Reb Shlomo... maybe both, maybe both, right? Could be. So that's what Rav David's saying. Maybe it's lo brira lei what the real kavana is, or klapei that this is be'ikar for the shelo yistanef. Maybe it's also to give it warmth. Meila, it's taka a problem. So that's why R' Moshe assered it. I don't believe Rav David said it. I don't believe it. It doesn't make sense to me. I would say it a little differently. I would say R' Moshe was talking about when it wasn't in the cholent. ... Just says, and if you wrap it in a silver foil, it's hatmana. He says it clearly. Go take it out. I don't think so. I don't think so. Iyin daled, chelek daled, siman ayin daled, os ayin. He probably brings Reb Shlomo Zalman. Then he must bring Reb Shlomo Zalman, yeah. I know. Go ahead, yeah. I think it's os gimel, right? Hatmana, os gimel. At the end, the last line of that too. Yeah. Hefsek kedeirah. What's hefsek kedeirah? It's not inside the pot. Hefsek kedeirah means a blech. That's what he means, hefsek kedeirah, that's what he means, or put it on top of a pot. So you know what? On top of a pot, whatever it is, it's not in the cholent. Yeah, so he says it's hatmana. Good.

That's right. So that's all. I don't know what the drinking cup... so that's what I'm saying. I was very not impressed with the whole business. I wasn't impressed. Here, you could say this he could say is talking about without cholent, and here he's talking about with cholent. It's a whole different sugya. Halacha l'maaseh, Rebbi Yoshef paskens not like Reb Moshe. Aluminum is like a kli; it's like a kedeirah. So first of all, that's it. So what do you want? There's no problem. You’re allowed to wrap it in aluminum. It's not derech hatmanah. What? Okay, so I'll tell you a few things what I hold. Halacha l'maaseh, if you go and you wrap it well, like five, six times, so then you know it's for hatmanah reasons. If you only put it in one, so you know it's only to keep it, because it's the way it is. When a person wants to not have dirty chicken and then shouldn't go low, you put it in a little foil. But even in five times, what's the difference? The kavanah, that's what I'm trying to say. Kavanah is maybe just as a pan, as to hold the food. Heavy duty, let's say. Heavy duty foil. But I'm trying to say kavanah is not necessarily l'hatmin. So where your kavanah is l'hatmin, then I agree with Reb Moshe then. I don't know what Reb Yoshef would say. In other words, Reb Yoshef just said aluminum foil is like kedeiros. I'm telling you that I would say, how would I pasken? I'm telling you l'maaseh, knowing Reb Shlomo Zalman's psak, and knowing Reb Elyashiv, and knowing Reb Moshe, so if someone came to ask me, the way I would say is like this: if you wrapped it up many times, so you know it's for hatmanah reasons. You know you're trying to hold the chaim, obviously. Unless you came on Shabbos and all you have was one silver foil, and it's very big, so you can't rip it, so you wrap it up 20 times. So then your kavanah is not for hatmanah; your kavanah is just to hold it. If the thing itself is something that will have, like, oil or spills, so you know that the reason why you're putting the aluminum foil is this shelo yistaneh. That's the reason. If the pshat is that you went and you took it and put it into a chalnt, so there the pshat, you don't want it to spill out, unless, let's say, for example, you have a kishke. The kishke has a plastic already, and then you went on top of the plastic and you put the aluminum. So there, you did it only to aluminum, right? You only did it. Unless you say you're afraid it's going to spill on the sides, I don't know. I have an eitzah. Whenever you want to put in the aluminum, you have an eitzah. What you could do is you could keep it open on top, because R' Moshe l'shitaso. According to R' Moshe, R' Moshe holds there's no hatmanah if it's open on top. Rav Shmuel Zalman held that it's still hatmanah, only the sides. That's the sugya of the crockpot. Moshe holds hatmanah has to be mikalatzadim. So since R' Moshe holds it has to be mikalatzadim, if you wonder what that is, that's in Chelek Aleph, siman tzaddik, when he talks about the thermos. R' Moshe says, yesod, hatmanah is only mikalatzadim. So you know what? Just leave it open a little bit. Thermos, no hatmanah? Leave it open. A thermos is—most poskim hold there's no problem of hatmanah in a thermos for two reasons. R' Moshe holds because it's open on top, and then when you put the top, it's just a covering, and a cover is no problem. Kedeirah, the halacha is that a kisui kedeirah doesn't have hatmanah. Others pasken that it's no problem because of sif hei, kli sheini. Sif hei is kli sheini. So R' Moshe says that it could be, it could be al tzli sheini. R' Moshe goes to whole teshuva and he says, l'ira this sevara. He holds of the sevara. So that's the svara. So let's say you took the silver foil and you put it on the blech. Keep it open. There's no hatmana on mashkeh. That's not hatmana in mashkeh. That's something else. That's something else. That's something else. The shaila is, the shaila is the other way around. So now you want to put it in the cholent. So if you hold like Reb Shlomo Zalman, l'choira there's no sugya. If you hold like Reb Shlomo Zalman, there's no sugya, right? It's mutar. Ela mai, you want to be choshesh for that second shita. There's a shever halevi, let's be choshesh for that second shita. So first of all, you have to know the sugya called kedeira b'soch kedeira. That's another sugya. The Taz holds it's kedeira b'soch kedeira, it's taka asur. Chazon Ish is cholek on that Taz. Chazon Ish holds there's no sugya kedeira b'soch kedeira. So technically, if you hold that the silver foil is only a kedeira, so there's no problem of kedeira b'soch kedeira by putting it into the cholent. But if you hold that there is a problem—

You have a kezayis. Either you're paskening, ... that it's not l'stanef, or you can make holes. There's a svara that the Acharonim want to say that if I use the silver foil, covering it over only because I want to enjoy the taste that the cholent should give to the kishke, right? It's the other way around. I'm not doing it derech hatmanah. I'm not putting it in there to be matmin it from the heat. I'm doing derech bishul. I want that it should cook together. So some want to say that you should make, like the Shevet HaLevi says, you should make holes. You make holes, so first of all there's no hatmanah, and second of all, there's no—it's just for the taste. I think the taste will go in anyway. I don't know. I think if you cover fully with silver foil, the taste goes in, no? It doesn't. It doesn't. Okay, so then you make holes. That's it. You make holes. The only thing is, it's very hard to say with a kishke that it has a plastic, and if you put on top of it a silver foil, that that's not called derech hatmanah. Maybe you take off the plastic. No, I'm saying I wouldn't want something plastic in the heat for 24 hours; all the poison is going into the food. Yeah, but you're going into the kishke anyway. What do you mean? But people do it. People do it, l'maaseh. Which, by the way, I said this. A guy said to me his wife what does is takes off the plastic and puts silver foil instead. I said, What's silver foil, is that any better? There's a better. It's aluminum. It's poison. I use vegetable—what do you call it? There's only one person in the world that I can think of. Most people put a regular silver foil. A regular silver foil is just as bad as the plastic. Parchment. It's vegetable. Yeah, aluminum. They say it causes—watch for... Okay, that cans is even old-timers. We have aluminum pans. Yes, they're unhealthy. What do you mean, to have something bake in an aluminum pan for 24 hours? 24 hours? To cook 24 hours inside something? What are you talking about? Okay, so the kitzer. So then, oy bazoi, oy bazoi, according to Rafi's situation, so your kavanah is not fratmani. Your kavanah is just not to have the plastic go into the cholent. Fine, so then oy bazoi should be mutar, okay? Oy bazoi should be mutar. Yes, because the kavanah is not fratmani. The kavanah is not fratmani. Okay, that's halacha l'maaseh. Just pasken to you 20 halachos l'maaseh, okay? Plastic bekev, hatmanah or no? The same thing if you, instead of foil paper, you put in plastic. Depends. Depends what you're doing it for. If you're doing it shelo l'hitanef— No, it's the same thing, no? Yeah, it's the same sugya. The only thing is this, yes, this is what we spoke about. So we spoke about what happens in case you only put the plastic there to keep the pot clean. So he brings down from Rav Dovid that that's not included in Reb Shlomo Zalman's psak of hachbarah. I don't believe it's true. I don't think Rav Dovid— Makes sense. So what's the difference? As long as it's not derech hatmanah. If the kavanah is something else, it has to be shelo yistanef ha'ochel. What's wrong? Shelo yistanef ha'kli. What's the difference? And the ikar sevara is that shelo yehei l'shem hatmanah, so what do you want? The only thing is, I do want to point out, when you do put the plastic in, usually it doesn't come to the walls, doesn't cover by the walls. When you put the plastic in, it doesn't go against the walls. Yeah, there's plenty of room on the side. Doesn't the water and the food— No, no, it doesn't, because what happens is you put it over on top and it doesn't fit. It's not something that goes—I mean, I use it in my house. When you put it in the crock pot— I'm telling you my shayla. I'm telling you my house, it's that way. In my house, huh? No, the plastic, you put cholent in the— No, the plastic, you put— What do you do? You put water on the outside, and then you put the plastic— No, I don't know. I just—the reason they use, in my house, they use it just not to make the pot dirty. It also makes not the pot dirty, because it doesn't go into the water; you just pour out— So the plastic should not melt, it says. Right, because it melts. So the plastic should not melt if it's water. It may in a certain way that the plastic doesn't melt, it's special plastic. I didn't use the regular store plastic, obviously. I use the special one. But there's thicker— No. Let's say your case. So let's discuss your case. You put the water— No, all there is, ... is aser.

Bucharim also have special food. You cook in the bag. ... It's interesting, you put water there. I didn't know. That's a new case for me. I never worked... It's interesting. No, pashut, pashut, it's just not to make the walls dirty. No, pashut, it's just not to make the walls dirty. Not only walls dirty, special food. Not because of... Yeah, I know this. I actually know they don't do that. So it's going to be asur. Maybe because that's real hatmana, no? Unless you hold ein hatmana b'mayim. But here the problem is not hatmana, it's more the bag. The bag is not hatmana. The bag is right touching the food. The bag is touching the food. The water is around the bag heating it. The kli contains the water. So the water is making like hatmana to the... Yeah, to the... What does he pasken regarding hatmana b'ochel? What does he say? No, it's not hatmana b'ochel. No, mashkin. He goes to the chazonish. ... holds not like that, right? ... שאף שקיוש הביצה מחוסה בקליפתה, דמי למשקין שבתוך הכלי, דשייבויסא טמונה. We pasken, yeah, that it is. We pasken that there's hatmanah. Here, Kitzi says, he says like this. He says over here that... he says down over here. Shuv ba liyadi sefer Shabbos Hayom. Ra'isi loi, shama min beishei kasav, va'ani halachim harav oifer malka lagoyn Reb Elyashiv, v'herenu lo es ha'stir, u'patgam kol tzadav, v'amar lanu she'ein siba loisrei. The crackpot. Ein siba loisrei. You knew about this? Who's the guy? Who is it? It's accepted sefer. We could trust that he went to Reb Elyashiv? It's a real story? Probably made it up. Good stuff. Good, I have to know this. It's a good idea. Okay, next halacha. Yeah. Next halacha. Keter. Keter. Shabbos. Special box, keeping warm, the food warm. Hot box. Yeah. So it's like a... like a thermos, same thing.

They cook it in something else, though. Yeah, they cook something else, and then they put it in there. Yeah, it's clichéing. In the pan inside. The problem is it's not nogea b'davar. It's not like a regular oven, so what's the problem? But it's not an oven. It doesn't do anything except for keeping heat. But anyway, it's mutar. It doesn't touch the stam, so what do you want? It's a regular oven. I thought you'd tell me a story that it touches. Otherwise it's not like a... Yes, and then it's a regular oven. So what do you put things in? I thought you put an oven, put food in an oven. No problem about tumah. There's a problem of shehiya and chazarah, maybe, but that's about it. Thermos is a problem. What? What do you mean, thermos is a problem? What do you mean? Yeah, okay, R' Moshe holds it's mutar. Yeah, R' Moshe holds it's not a pesik reisha that it's going to go on right away. R' Moshe holds it's not a pesik reisha that it's going to go on right away. You know R' Moshe holds... But the... Yeah, but he holds it's not a pesik reisha to go on. Not because of your ma'aseh, it's not because of your ma'aseh. It goes on. Anyway, it goes on. As soon as the air goes on and off. Yeah, but you're not magdish, not muchach. That's the machlokes, and those that argue, argue because it's this cheshbon. You're gorem for it. Moshe says you're not gorem. Who says you're gorem? Anyway, it will be just later. Anyway goes on. What I mean, anyway gets colder. If I have a timer, I can take the pinout and make it go on earlier. Earlier? I don't know about earlier, but you do later. No, but this is not the same. For example, you can use a timer anyway. Yeah, you can use a timer. It's like... Okay, let's go weiter. The kitzur, that's R' Moshe's teshuva. Because somebody told me that in my school, the kids who can go in the button to see when the fire on already. Yeah, that's what they tell you to do. They tell you to check. My question, if it's regarding to everybody, when the fire on, you can open even the... Yes, yes. Because it's on. Yeah, it's no problem. Right. That's what they tell you to do, to check if you see the fire on, then you can turn, like the refrigerator. Refrigerator also, yeah. That's what you can't do it. Okay, let's go weiter. Next halacha. Mutar l'hatmin... Yeah. Okay, daled is also, we did. Okay, beis. You want to do beis? What's asur, what's mutar, what? Mosif hevel, not mosif hevel. You want to do it? By what? They say it's mosif hevel, I don't know. Yeah, Chazal. Of course he doesn't, because we don't have it today. The reason why the poskim don't bring it is because it's not nogea. Who's going to do it? Because why can't Chazal—if Chazal said it works, it works. What do you mean? What are you talking about? Well, why would you question what Chazal said? Okay, so I want to tell you a few yesodos. Tishma, tishma. Reishis kol, it's not nogea for a few points. Reishis kol, it's not nogea because we don't have all these cases of mosif hevel. Second of all, the case of mosif hevel usually is, is when they put it on a fire. For example, in France and in Barcelona and all these places, all the Sefardim used to put a blanket on top, right? So l'choira it's a problem of mosif hevel unless it's not completely covered, unless you say it's not completely covered, right? That's the sugya. The only thing is there's a few cheshbones. I want a taina that one of the cases that you're not allowed to be put is muchin, right? Mishnah Berurah says, what is muchin? Says the Mishnah Berurah, yeah, kol davar rach kari muchin. Anything soft is called muchin. Goytzemer gefen, u'tlisha tzemer rach shel beheima, u'greiras begadim bluyim. So l'choira we have today tzemer gefen. L'choira we have today tzemer rach. We have wool. I hold that this is not when it was made into a material, not when it's made into a...

And my proof is, because you see, he brings a case of greiras begadim bluyim. So why does he speak about greiras begadim bluyim? So either the pshat is no one's going to use regular begadim, so it's just halacha l'maaseh, or the pshat, I'm saying l'maaseh no one's going to use it, or the pshat is the metzius, in order to be rach, it has to be worn out, because if it's regular— Yeah. Listen, he never— and I'll tell you where it's nogea. You want to hear something cute, where it's nogea? Someone once asked me a shaila. Let's say a person takes the warm challahs out of the oven, and he wants to put the challah cover, big challah cover on top, and he covers it over. So I told him it's תלוי in the original shaila, but you're not mechaven for hatmana; you're mechaven for— To cover it. To cover it. But l'maaseh, it could be two kavanos, Reb Moshe. You'd have to have sole kavanah, so lu yatzi if you're mechaven also to keep it warm, might be a problem. So you're going to say, who does it, right? The guy who asked me a shaila obviously does it. And when I said it over in Lakewood, so there was a guy sitting there, he says, I also do it that way. I keep it covered with the challah cover because I have in mind it should stay warm. You should also do it. The only thing is, you also do it to stay warm. You see, there's always a guy to my left, the guy who lived in the shiur, there was always to my left. So I told him, a wonderful thing. But if you learn that it can't be something which is a material, something which is a shevi tov venoi, which means it was— Right. This is definitely rough; it's definitely not soft, so it's not a davar hamosif hevel. Oh, on Shabbos it'd be asur. On Shabbos, but on Erev Shabbos it wouldn't be asur. Rebbi would retain that those covers are even better for מוסיף, because since they're synthetic, they don't allow any of the... I'd rather ask that for shaila. When it says severes is synthetic. I saw the sefer of Karp, brings from Reb Elyashiv, whatever, that one always brings Reb Elyashiv psakim. Tzemer is synthetic tzemer. He brings that there's one of the cases. Synthetic is just as well as tzemer. Any synthetic has the same halacha, tzemer and muchin. The only thing is this dir you have to know. Something was created, something was a—what's the halacha then? So that's what I want to tie. I want to tie into this. Okay, so let's go further, because I think it's not mincha. Huh? And how about the fact that the challah already, the sheet was broken from putting it on that... How is it broken? It's like... Huh? ... Don't put the challah board. ... It's a kli sheini, it's halachic. You took it from the blech. Good, good, good. What happened to kli sheini? And you don't cover it all the way. Yes, if you don't cover it all the way, fine, that I would tell you. But if you do cover it, the chasidim cover it all the way, what do you do? Unless you say kli sheini. Unless you say kli sheini. Unless you say kli sheini. I like it. I like it, kli sheini. Never thought of that. I don't know why. Good svara, no? Kli sheini. Okay, we have to rather learn that, because there's two ways to learn that Mishnah Berurah, okay? So we have to finish that. Maybe Sunday, Monday, whatever, we'll learn the—because that kli sheini, kli sheini, you have to learn it. The Rav Shulchan Aruch learns kli sheini, it's a takanah, that we only pasken in kli rishon. On electrical, learns the Mishaburah learns stop mitztanek. It's machlokes how to learn up the kli sheini. Okay, we'll talk about it.