Basar B’Chalav: The Relationship Between Issur Achilah and Issur Hana’ah

Transcript

I’ll say, l’shvach, gedi b’chalev imo lav davka. Gedi is lav davka. Gedi is lav davka. So then why do we say chalev imo is lav davka? Later on we’re going to learn chalev imo, not temei’ah. Maybe it’s just a diber hakasuv b’hoveh. The Gemara also says gedi and not pasento. So gedi is not— Don’t the Rishonim talk about gedi v’lo adam? It’s brought down, gedi v’lo adam. Hold on one second. Meaning even when we say basar lav davka or gedi lav davka, as he said, we don’t jump onto random things. The what? Gedi is lav davka, therefore it’s even shor, right? Yeah, kosher. So why is chalev imo davka? How do you get— maybe it’s just grabbed a diber hakasuv b’hoveh. What does that mean? Maybe just milk. It is milk. No, but how do you know kosher? Gedi also tamei is not good. Rebbe, the Gemara says that we learn that gedi here means— because it doesn’t say gedi ha’izim. Gedi ha’izim by Yehuda is what type of gedi is, but a kid goat. Here, kid means any animal. If you’re coming from the point that lav davka is because we have a pasuk, that’s great. That’s not what it says in the Ibn Ezra. What does it say? Ibn Ezra says because darkam haya to do that, so the pasuk speaks— Meaning darkam was with any animal? Yeah, that’s what it says. It says darkam, their way was gedi, but grad means anything. So how do you know chalev imo means davka? Maybe chalev imo is imo and tehorah. Gedi also is na lav davka and it’s still tehorah. I don’t understand. So I’m asking you the same question. If the derech was this, and because of that we learn it could be even a shor, so how do we learn out tamei and tahor? We should just check whatever the way they do it. Rebbe's saying it's totally al derech. Even Ezra's saying— I don't— Rebbe's saying that Ibn Ezra's saying. Rebbe. I'm not saying anything. I'm just telling you, when we say kach heim darko, that's what it says. Gedi lav davka. Shedarko shel ha'akom kein. Okay, fine. So I didn't have the kavanah was over there. Rebbe, but this is a chok, no? See, it's a talk to me. This is a chok, no? Again, when you darshen gedi lav davka, the question is pshat in the Gemara. You want to read with me, so I'm reading with you, and it says in Shulchan Aruch gedi lav davka. Why is gedi lav davka? And the answer is either because, prat, gedi means easy. Tell me, gedi also means shor. How does gedi mean shor? Lav davka. So then it's lav davka. But kosher. So how do you get— make me crazy, I don't know. If you hold it's lav davka and it's based on darko, so it has nothing to do with chalav. The kashya is on gedi. Rebbe's holding the chalav into this because I brought the Shulchan Aruch. In the next line you see davka. Rebbe didn't— mamash didn't say anything. Huh? It's a pashut kashya. No, it's a pashut— I don't understand. When you like it, it's davka; when you don't like it, it's lav davka. Okay. Maran se'if gimmel, go ahead, Torah, next one. Maran se'if gimmel. I don't know. When I see the word mutar, I mean it means— so we could sell, we could sell— I don't see why not. Camel milk, cheese, camel cheese, meat sandwiches. What's wrong? Where does it say it's asur? Can you tell me where? Philly cheesesteak. I don't know why. People eat— I don't know where you got it. Honestly, unless— and I'll make money off this. Again, it says mutar. Where do you see that it's asur? I don't know. What's asur? What are we doing? If you take camel milk and you put it with meat and cook it, it's not asur. It's mutar. It's not basar b'chalav. So why can't we go and make stands and Jews sell camel milk with meat? No, maybe that's another issue of selling not kosher. I don't know. We don't sell not kosher food. It says mutar. It says, levashel, not to sell it. What does that mean? No, no. Let me dishu u'behanah. Not to sell it. To give it to your animal, to give it to a Mexican, not to sell. I don't know, that's... okay. So there's a whole world that says somehow in the mechaber that he holds a Maharatzai, and you know, do it. Whoa. Right? Right. Wait, so all of a sudden— I don't know which mechaber you're talking about. There's a Mechaber in seif daled. That's not a Mechaber, that's a Rama. The Rama in seif gimmel also, right, but there's a Mechaber in seif daled. No, it's not. There's no such Mechaber in seif daled. I didn't finish my dibur. Talks about cholvishi. Yeah, yeah, true.

Yeah, yes, it's true. So they, the ... achronim, as Rebbe's gonna tell us, they're maksha between the two mechabers, and they, you know... Write that down. Which achronim say it? Write it to cut the sefer today. You want me to read with you. I'm reading with you. The word mutar to me, it's mutar. No, it doesn't mean that. You look to see from later, it says about cholov Yisroel, different issur. I said, okay, good, so write that down. No, it's mutar. Mutar means... Which achronim say differently? All the Chini books say differently. I don't know, but all I want you is to read with me. It doesn't say it anymore. Rebbe. Okay, next. Mutar means asur mishum maris ayin. Yeah, that's what it means. Whenever it says mutar, it's asur. It depends who you ask. Exactly. ... You want to read with me. Yeah. ... This that they have a ramah, so therefore what? It's not mukhach. The mechaber becomes ... the Ramah, all of a sudden? Okay, good. ... You still want the mechaber and ... over here? Forget it, I would read. You want me to read? It should be more mutar. Yeah, the fact that the Ramah comes and says, no, it's asur ... he read in the mechaber also that it's not that way, unless he's gonna mefaresh. I don't... it's not fair. You're not being fair. You're not — either you read it or you don't. Next. Iyun Rambam. Nothing. Iyun Rambam, yeah? We're just reading. Iyun Rambam, ... By the way, I didn't bring it the way the Rambam brings it with something, a pegel, ... like some kind of — okay, so what's the ... אוכלו אינו לוקה, דאין איסור חל על איסור, ולו באכילה אסור באכילה מפני איסור נבילה. אבל מבשל, כן ילקה, לעניין הנאה לא יעשה. Why is it? Because there's no issur chal. So one is ein issur chal al issur l'gabei the achilah, because then you ask. Ella by the bishul, there's no issur. What about the issur hana'ah? The truth is, if you paid attention to everything I spoke about with you in the P.S., you would understand he's saying a major chiddush. הוציא הכתוב בלשון בישול, right? It means achilah; achilah means hana'ah. It's all chad. You can't split the issur achilah and the issur hana'ah. Usually in the Torah, when they say lo yei'achel means also you can't benefit from it, right? Right. The problem is it doesn't say lo yei'achel; it says lo yei'vashel, right? But we learn one of them to be eating. So how can you split the three? So let's take a look at yesterday. Remember yesterday I told you the Rambam. The Rambam speaks shelo k'derech in the achilah and shelo k'derech in the hana'ah, remember that? Or you put like a bitterness into it. Remember I spoke about it. So what's the taich? It's because it's all the same. It's one din of shelo k'derech, because issur achilah and issur hana'ah is chad. Very poshut. The Rambam's l'shitaso that you can't split the achilah and the hana'ah. So whenever there's a sugya called derech, once it's by achilah, it's then it's by hana'ah, and once it's by hana'ah, then it has to be by achilah. It's all the same. Why isn't the bishul also mutar? Let's go slowly. Now let's go to the Rambam. All those that have a bias against Ashkenaz can leave now. Let's learn the Rambam. Ready? Shekol basar... go ahead, Nu. Anything which is not basar v'chalav, she'eino min haTorah, mutar b'hana'ah. Chidushu... Slowly, slowly, slowly. Why? Who said? Why should it be that way? So pashut you say the chachamim didn't want to go so far. I don't know, it's the same issur to me. I don't know if hana'ah is... They should make it k'ein d'Oraisa. I don't know, something, right? I don't know. So what's the answer? Shekol basar v'chalav she'eino min haTorah mutar b'hana'ah. Shechidushu, he's saying a chiddush. Even though the achilah is asur, still the hana'ah is mutar. Rav Moshe is saying a chiddush. Moshe is saying is that even though something could be asur min haTorah, right? — Mid'rabbanan. Slowly, but it's mutar b'hana'ah. Why would it be mutar b'hana'ah if the issur achilah remains? It comes together. How could they do something? It's on the d'Oraisa level. When it comes to gezeiros, we have to goizer together. More than that, it's not even k'ein d'Oraisa if achilah and hana'ah is the same issur. Rambam. I don't know. I'm trying to tell you, the Rambam is saying a mechudash. Kol she'eino min haTorah... because we see the thing in the Rambam.

I appreciate what he's saying now more. Even more, he's saying a chiddush that. Why is he saying it's mutar b'hana'ah, and don't say if we assered it mid'rabbanan, achilah it should be asur b'hana'ah. He's trying to tell me, for some reason, in the derabbanan we're going to split the two. The chiddush of the Rama is, in the derabbanan we split the two, even though it's really one issur. Yeah, yeah. Okay, continue, Tomar, next, yeah. What I'm trying to bring out is to understand the chiddush of mutar b'hana'ah, because the truth is the Rashal is cholek. I forgot about it. Rashal holds that it's not a mutar b'hana'ah. You see that clearly. Go ahead, Nu, read, go ahead, Nu. First of all, let's do the Mechaber. What does the Mechaber say? Aval mid'rabbanan asur b'chol inyan, im mekabel hana'ah. One second, one second. The Rama אמר... Slow, slow. So first of all, let's do the Mechaber. What does the Mechaber say? Aval mid'rabbanan... What is b'chol inyan? That's not achilah. What's b'chol inyan? No, see, achilah b'lashon d'issur, לומר שאינו אסור מן התורה, אבל מדרבנן אסור בכל ענין. What is b'chol inyan? Not achilah. He was just speaking about achilah. That achilah is asur b'chol inyan. However you do it, even in a derabbanan-dike fashion, if you did it, it's asur. That's how you read? You can read a book? One second, the pashut over here is what? Re-read again, re-read again. V'hotzi achilah b'lashon bishul. Yeah, v'hotzi achilah b'lashon bishul. Lomar, she'eino asur min haTorah ela derech bishul, aval miderabbanan asur b'chol inyan. Which means? Achilah. Which means that even if it's a miderabbanan dika, meaning that if basar b'chalav wasn't even derech bishul, I'm not allowed to eat it, period. Miderabbanan. Even if it's not derech bishul. Right. And b'chol inyan means? However you cooked it, even if it's not a de'oraisa dika bishul. That's how I learned b'chol inyan. It would be... Re-read again. Aval miderabbanan, Rashi, Pesachim, שם... דחולין, קו״ז עמוד א', המעמיד בעור קיבה. ... seems good, mamid, mamid b'or keiva, that's different with cooking, and maybe, I think maybe that's what he's learning by. He's probably learning with b'chol inyan. He's going on achilah. I see both sides. You see both sides, right? כתוב בתורה, לא תבשל... I know, I know, because it says achilah, b'lashon achilah. I know, I know. He's going in that mahalach. Maybe. And that's why the Rambam was muchrach to come and jump into hana'ahville. To prove my point. Why does the Rambam have to speak about hana'ah if Maran included it? That's what I'm saying, because he said b'chol inyan, which means even hana'ah, like the Rambam. So he's arguing. We're making a machlokes. You're nervous. We're arguing about nothing. Whatever. Move on. Why is it not? So you think it's about nothing? No, I didn't say that. Okay, move on, yeah. V'yesh ladun, yeah, go ahead. ... Ba, ba... what? What is that? ... V'hainu kavush. ... L'choira. ... Yeah, go ahead. So there is something, huh? Rebbi's on this Rambam board. I'm busy with this Rambam. I'm not ready to swallow that the Beis Yosef just ignored a Rambam. It bothers me. It's very hard for me to accept a thing like that. Okay. ... Yeah, go ahead. And the Rashal, meaning the Shach, when he argues on the Rashal, he yells, he says, You learned the Rambam not like that and you argue on him. Good, no?

It's great. You're proving my point, right? I don't think so. What point is Rebbe trying to prove? I want to know, the Rashal comes and says that it's still asur b'hana'ah? Yes. Not like the Rambam. The Rambam holds it's mutar b'hana'ah. That's what I'm trying to tell you. We're on the derabbanan. Right. So I'm just telling you, he's going, he's saying, if you can't split it, on the derabbanan you can split it. Why? On the de'oraisa Rebbe's saying you can't split. What did the Rashal say? Asur af b'hana'ah. It's a svara. I don't know what his svara was. Well, l'inyan daat, that's his svara, the Rambam, that you can't split it. He's learning the Rambam not like the Rambam. Rebbe, can we just read? Yeah, keep on reading. L'inyan daas ha-Rambam, shebasar bechalav treifah u'neveilah mutar b'hana'ah. L'maaseh, it's mutar b'hana'ah by treifah, right? Remember the sugya? It's right, the next one, yeah? ... meikel bidvarav lo hifsid. So if it's a neveilah sugya, it'll be mutar b'hana'ah b'chalav. Go ahead. Yeah, you're with me? Yeah, you're good or you're lost? I'm following. עיין פרי מגדים, ... פסקי תשובה. Who's reading the Pri Megadim? Read the Pri Megadim, Piskei Teshuva. Yeah, see, you've got ... להחמיר ולא להקל כרמבם. You got to be machmir, right? All the... It's a question: how far do we take this Rambam? How far do we take this Rambam, that it's mutar b'hana'ah? Yeah? Okay, go ahead, continue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ... תשובות ... ... אין מזניחין אותו, אבל ... Okay. ויש נפקא מינה למעשה. ... has neveilah and mevushal b'chalav. Usually they use their dog food. Yeah, they have, it's mixed with milk. You know, right? Gosham, gosham. Dog food, milk. Gosham, gosham. Calcium, right? They try to stick in the dog food. So they also have cat food, which has cheese and turkey, chicken and turkey. Okay, so that's a little more drabbanan, right? Yeah, that's not so much. But the regular dog food here is real basar b'chalav, neveilah. Can I have hana'ah from that? Tell me, do anybody puts the dog food into this mechaber? With cheddar cheese flavor. With this mechaber, no. With this Rambam, they do. They do put it in? Okay. That's okay. This Rambam, everybody uses it as a snack. They use it. Yeah. ... McDonald's and ... from McDonald's. Yeah. ... Guy has a cat. Now why am I saying this? My neighbor has a cat. I like his cat better than him. No, I'm just kidding. I feel like you're not kidding. So the cat comes around. The problem is he has the nine lives, not the cat. Anyway, that's right. That's right. That's very good. Kids, so the cat comes around everybody's backyards, and it eats the garbages of everyone's backyard. He owns the cat? No, he took it into the house, like he made it part of his family. Made it part of his family. Okay, now, now, here's the ... So the question is, the question is, if this cat, which I have to feed, my cat, it's pilgriming through the garbage— no, I'm saying I own the cat, the guy, and it's pilgriming through the garbages. And it's eating leftovers from the goyishe garbage. Okay, hana'ah, because I usually have to feed it, no? I'm getting hana'ah because usually he has to feed it. He has to feed it. That's the real story, right? Yeah. So if I come and I give dog food to a stray animal, that's a whole shaylah, right? Do I have hana'ah? You know that's a big shaylah, right? Hana'ah to give a chesed to a random animal? Some Acharonim say, like, it's like giving it to the kohen thing. Yeah. Oh, you don't know, there's a sugya. Look into it. It's one of the big sugyas in Hilchos... about hana'ah. My animal, it's hana'ah. What about if it's not my animal? It's a stray animal. Some say it's still a hana'ah because I feel good that I'm... Otherwise I wouldn't do it, right? Right. Okay. All right, so that also fulfills it. Makes you feel that you're a rachmana baishan. It fulfills some kind of need. Acharonim, it's a big raya. Ma kol panim, that's the question. Could she eat... what do we call it? Could she eat the leftovers? No, the leftovers, or... yeah. But even better, could she eat Betsy, next-door neighbor Betsy's stew roast that's left over? She threw in the garbage. I'm telling this shaylah, this hana'ah, and so on. Okay, let's continue. Have a nice day. It's not hers anymore. It's hefker. Okay, so he doesn't like the way I read today. That's exactly what I want. I want you to be so unhappy after every shiur. Really.

That's enough. That's what I want. I want to find. You asked me how to read. Okay, I'm reading. You don't like it, so read differently or say differently. I don't mind. There's no problem if we read it differently. No, I'm just telling you, I'm reading with you. We're gonna read Shulchan Aruch with all the acharonim, how to read. The bechol inyan, bechol inyan. What is bechol inyan? So I'll tell you what we're gonna do. These sheets, I want you to take and I want you to add to them. I want you to look into the bechol inyan. Yesterday he had a good ha'arah, the Pri Megadim. Put it in. Ayin Pri Megadim, yeah? Pri Megadim, how he's medayek in the Rishon LeZion of the Shach. And I need to learn the bechol inyan. Find me if the Shulchan Aruch agrees with this Rambam. That's what I need. Very important. Find me. The Rambam, the Shulchan Aruch. When we walk out of here, there's probably gonna be a machlokes on what the Rav and Rebbe was saying. The Rambam really— Good, I love machlokes. One of the greatest things is machlokes. As long as you keep me out of it, I'm good.