Nosen Taam Lifgam: When a Pagum Beriah Loses Its Chashivus

Transcript

Okay, let's go. So today the maggid shiur is HaRav Reb Nissan. The students will be Rabbi Wolkin, Yosef, and Yehuda. Okay, Rabbeinu Nissan, simple question. I have food that has in it bugs. Who likes to eat bugs? Anybody enjoys it? Chinese. The Chinese. That's why they have coronavirus. If they wouldn't eat bugs, they wouldn't have coronavirus. Bugs are nifgam. You know anybody who enjoys it? So how could there ever be a problem of bugs in food? Why don't you just say it's batel b'shishim? Have a nice day. No, it's not a good question. So what do you say, Rav Tomer? What's the answer to that question? I don't know, berya, right? Berya, but berya is batel. But it's not batel. Yes, it is if it's nifgam. What do you mean nifgam? Kuf gimmel, not yet? Oh, yeah, yeah. That's missing a piece? No. Oh, nifgam. It tastes horrible. Oh, pagum, yeah. It's pagum. What are you talking about? So let's read the Rama. We learn Rama in this yeshiva, or only Beis Yosef and Mechaber? Okay, so read the Rama. Go ahead. Mihu, devarim hachashuvim k'berya... Mihu, devarim hachashuvim k'berya. So it's not only berya; it's things like berya, okay, that are chashuv. So the problem with the chashuv is it's not batel. But, says the Rama... What do you say? Huh? But if it would be pagum on its own, then it's batel. Am I reading something wrong? So if you feel... That worms, worms, especially they're dead and looking, so they're pagum. So what's the issue? I thought you said there's no— you said berry is not batel? Not true, if it's nifgam, it's pagum. How can it be? You just read it. I didn't make it up. I just read it, that if the nifgam— It says, yeah, batel. Who said it's a whole berry? I mean, it says— Whatever the story is, whatever the barrier that we're saying not batel, in case it's nifgam, it'll be batel. If it's atzmo. Read it one more time, and we're gonna get it right. Go ahead, yeah. Ki berrya, okiatze bo, which we have to know what that means, yeah? If it's not, then it'll be pagum. Ba'atzmo, then it's pagum. But if it's pagum ba'atzmo, then it's okay. So I'm asking you a very simple question. You don't know how a bug can be pagum ba'atzmo? I don't know, it's a big problem. That's disgusting. I don't know what you're talking— which normal guy would eat that? We learned it from a ger that a ger wouldn't eat it. I'm asking a simple question. Oh, really? A cow not, but watch how cool it is. A fly is. You know anybody in the world that eats flies? Something happened to his bug that— You would know something that eats flies. Do you know such people? You know? You know anybody in the world, and you would tell me that there's a roiv of that world that eats worms, lice? What are you talking about? Maggots? What are you talking about? Oh, really? Yeah, there's a dude does it on TV. He goes all over the world. He makes money on it. He does anything for money. Oh, maybe. Forgot his name. Bob. Okay, so let's go weiter. Biramah, take it away. Biramah, right? Dvarim hachashuvim k... oh, ki yotzei bahem. Ayin shach, se'if katan aleph, kegon... ...kach gam ladegufo lo batel. U'v'se'if daled...

Reading it from inside, right? What's the kayotzeh, kayotzeh, and like it? And the answer is, charal. And the answer is davar sheb'minyan. All these things are not batel. And the seifei daas, what does he add? Davar sheyesh lo matirin. So could you tell these fine Jews what is charal, what is davar sheb'minyan, and what is davar sheyesh lo matirin, and all of them are not batel? Go ahead, tell them. What's charal? Tell them. Tell, tell them what it is. You know, chatichah... tell. Something is that special that you would serve it to a guest. It's not batel; it's special. Davar sheyesh lo matirin means that tomorrow will be mutar. Or it's a davar sheb'minyan, eggs, you count it, each one is chashuv, it can't become batel. If it's pagum, it will be okay. All these dinim, all these dinim that we say, no, there's no bittul, from all these cases, if it's pagum, they'll be batel. Good? So far so good? Davar sheb'minyan is lo batel. Count, numbers. Twelve eggs. Egg is chashuv; it has a number. It's not just a dozen. Anything that you count, a number. You don't— you buy, what, give me a batch of tuna fishes. Give me four of them, so it has a number. So each one is chashuv; it can't become batel, afilu b'elef lo batel. Okay, go ahead. Next. I know, I bring the pitchitcha. Okay, v'tzarich biur. It's a difference if it's pagum b'atzmo, and if it's not pagum b'atzmo. What's the difference? Something is rotten. So the fly isn't, though. I don't know. A fly is a rotten thing. No ger would eat a fly. That's not what the Rama says. Nifgam b'atzmo, which means inherently it's pagum. No. Okay, so it's a machlokes you and the Gemara. Talking about something meaning that something has to happen to it, you know, for it to become pasul. Otherwise the rest of the Rambam doesn't make sense. It's a very simple yesod. A normal beriah, but let's say it's something which is rotten. Now, what do I call—I call rotten that something that somebody wouldn't eat is called rotten, if you ask me. But even if you don't want to go with that argument, I don't care. Either way, if it's nifgam by itself, we'll say batel. But if it goes now into the food and ruins the whole food, ah, that we don't say. It's a difference. Huh? You don't see what I'm asking? No, I don't have a question. Yeah, my question—something's not—nothing adds up here in this siman. I don't יודע. If something is no good, but it has to be no good in it because of itself. But if it's no good now that it's in this chunk, ah, that's okay. But if it's nifgam, it's nifgam, and that's all. A nice day, what you want. It's not food. What's so complicated to understand about it? Okay, continue, yeah. פירמה. אם אינם פגומים בעצמה, היינו אם אינם פגומים קצת. If nifgu קצת. He says a mefurashdike vort. You don't need that it should be completely pagum. If it's not pagum, meaning, b'atzmo it's pagum, even if it's a little pagum, it's already—why? Because all these things have to do with chashivus, and that's why they're not batel. If it's pagum, it can't be chashuv. Even if it's a little, it's already not chashuv. Beautiful Taz. ממש לומדש'ע Taz, you hear? Okay, read it inside. Taz? Yeah. ... פגומים וסרוחים, בטל חשיבותן, אפילו נתבשלו, ואין מכירין אף גופן בטל. ורוב העולם דיקר חומרא דרובא דעל ידי בישול יותר מקיפוח, הוא משום טעמא, וכאן ליכא טעמא, דאיסורא שכבר האיסור מוסרח, והוא כאילו אין כאן משום איסור אלא טעם לחוד. אבל אם הם בעצמם מושבחים, אף על פי שנותנים טעם לפגם, במאכל זה, גופה לא בטיל אפילו באלף, כיוון שהוא בריה, או כיוצא בו מדברים שאינם מתבטלים, והוא, והכל גוף האיסור בלא תערובת. You're saying that the taam is batel. That's what the Rama is talking about, taam. Right. But the point is, you don't need more than just a little off. Once it's a little off, it's already nachash. In the end of the day, is the Rama saying that a bug can be batel or not? So the truth is, I'm adding this because this is where it is, right? Now you could say, like they're saying, a bug is not pagum because it's a full bug and it's not pagum. I look at it— It definitely gives a pagum taste. The question is, is it batel, sof sof, is it—

Let me ask you a simple question. When you have a chreisa, a snail, okay? I can't repeat this to me carefully. Let's say they don't eat it. I'm asking you a simple question. Nobody goes and eats those little bugs on top of a vegetable. Nobody's interested in that. I understand. Would you have a thing of lice and eat it? You can't say that lice are spoiled; they're living things. So that's what I'm asking you. I disagree with you, but I'm just saying, I don't think you're right, but all right. I'm asking you a simple question. When something is pagum, so the Taz says a chiddush: you don't need for it to be pagum fully, because once it's a little off, then it's not chashuv anymore. Rotten worms—meaning not rotten, a little off, a day-old worms—is not as delicious as the... according to you, it's not a problem. When it says nifgam, usually it means nifgam, real nifgam. Here in this siman, it doesn't mean full nifgam, says the Taz, even a little bit. Why? Because the whole reason is... So let's go, Va'ayin Gra, se'if katan beis. So you look at the Gra. The Gra argues with this Taz, and he says... And the answer is it has to be really nifgam. It has to be nifsal l'achila. So the question is, what are they really arguing? I mean, the Taz is saying a good sevara, right? It's not chashuv anymore. I'm still confused here. I'm not getting it. Are we saying that the Rama says a bug is batel? So I'm going to repeat: I don't know, and I don't care, because that's the argument in the Rama. You see, what do I do? I read with you. That's really my job. You ask me, I say this Rambam talks about bugs. Right, and he's saying it's batel, and he says it's batel. What's he doing with siman kuf? Before that, he doesn't learn like that, and I see what he's saying. He says, What do you mean? It's not true. It's a delicious bug. Forget about delicious bug. He said it's a beriah at this point. Delicious or not, it's a batel or not. A beriah that's pagum that no one would eat, what happens to that bug? Is that discussion here? Yes. Does it make sense? Why? What do we do with siman kuf? He's just erasing siman kuf. Siman kuf is always when it's in mashkeh. Isn't that what they're talking, right, exactly. I never learned that way. How else is there to learn? What else? A bug is a bug. That's it. It's a beriah. It's dead. It's five days old, five years old, who cares? It's a bug. But it says not like that. It just said, we just learned now. Now Rabbi wants to learn the Rama this way. I don't even want to learn Rama that. What do you want from me? You have another pshat in beriah that's not pagum? Maybe we can talk about taste. It says that it's pagum. A bug is always a pagum. Isn't that what I'm saying? I agree with you, and he's arguing with me, so argue with him. And still we said siman kuf that it's not batel. So I don't know. That's the sugya. I'm trying to learn with you. I'm good. I'm saying, am I bothered with the same thing? No, we're all saying the same thing from different angles. Okay, continue. I am pri megadim, se'if katan. ... shemistapek lifsok ka'taz o kagra. He's not sure. Pri Megadim says, I don't know how to learn this Rama. What is the wording? The Rama, it says that it's nifgam. I don't know. ... pagumim ba'atzman, af al pi shepoygem... Pagum means a little bit, or pagum means... we don't know. Just the food itself is not pagum. But it gives a pagum taste to the tavshil, ein bitulan afilu b'elef. Okay, so the question is, is it pagum k'tzas or pagum harbeh? It's a machlokes, and let's move on. Now, v'yesh l'ayein b'meh cholkim. What are they arguing? Okay, according to the Taz, even a little bit, so then the issur is not all this. I know, because you didn't see the word k'tzas, because he jumps to Mishubach. So the Pri Megadim—yeah, the Pri Megadim Mishbetzos Zahav learns up the Taz that way, okay? Since the Taz jumped from pagum to mishubach, you need mishubach, because nifgam k'tzas, not mishubach. Okay, you got it? Okay, move on. And you want to know something? My job is being accomplished. The way you just confronted me, that's all I want. I want you to see, where did you see it, where did you read it? And the answer is, I was cheated a little bit because I wanted to go further, but the answer is in the reading. And who says this? The Pri Megadim says this. Yeah, because the wording is, it's not nifgam, but it's not mishubach. That means it's nifgam k'tzas. Remember we spoke about this in siman aleph? Remember yesterday we spoke—

Talk about this? That's where I got it from. Nivkam, nivkam k'tzas, with a little bit, the more that—it's a pri megadim, it's a Taz. Go ahead, yeah. Took what whole thing off? What, your cereal? Okay, go ahead, yeah. Listen, you're lucky you didn't give him your hand, because Shlomo Lei would have taken that home too with him. Okay, go ahead, yeah. V'oid tzarich iyun. This is all shayach b'charal. But how did davar sheyesh lo matirin—what does that have to do with k'tzas? What is the Taz talking about? Has nothing to do with that. Something which has to do with chashivus, if it's nivkam k'tzas, not chashivus anymore. But the sugya of davar sheyesh lo matirin has nothing to do with that. Again, something sheyesh lo matirin, a davar that tomorrow will be mutar, has nothing to do with an egg tomorrow. Davar sheyesh lo matirin has nothing to do with nivkam k'tzas. The sugya has nothing to do—what is the Taz talking about? Now the issur v'heter, go ahead, next one. Oh, he learns that it is shayach, right? Comes along the Pischei Teshuva and he says, What are you talking about? Which is this question. Go ahead, read it. Eino medubar b'davar sheyesh lo matirin, shezeh lo shayach l'chashivus, domeh lo yitbatel nivkam k'tzas. Now you got the difficult task, right? You asked me where I got it from. He says, Lo nisdayti ze eino, ... afilu pagum b'atzmo lo batel. ... v'lo shayach l'meimar d'hoyu pagum batel chashivusei. ... Beautiful. Pow. So he doesn't like it. Okay. U'lefi divreinu, ma shekasav ... ki yaitza. According to this, whenever the Rama says ki yaitza by, what did he mean by ki yaitza by? Yeah. Lo al kol ha'dvarim shelo mitbatlin, ela alav shelo ... machmas chashivus. What? U'lefi zeh, yeah, I'm sorry, ki yaitza by lo al kol dvarim. So obviously he's not going on ki yaitza, all the klalim, ... but what's ki yaitza by? Ki yaitza by that's chashuv, like beriyah. One learns ki yaitza by means this vet ki yaitza by all the klalim of lo batel. And the way the Pischei Teshuvah is going to learn it, ki yaitza by like beriyah, that it's chashuv. Beautiful. It's a question: how do you read k'beriyah and ki yaitza? Does beriyah mean the din of beriyah and ki yaitza by anything that's not batel like beriyah? Or does it mean beriyah that's chashuv and lo batel, u'ki yaitza by anything that's chashuv? It's two ways how to read the Rama. Go ahead, continue. U'lefi zeh, yesh לעיין בדבר המעמיד. Davar ha'ma'amid is one of those things that are not batel. What about that? What's the Ramah? Why do you make faces? You don't like it, you don't like the question. Ramah is not bottled because it's what the job is doing, not because of the taste it's giving. What's the Ramah? I can't ask this? And I can't bring a Ramah that says this? I shouldn't? Okay. You have a scissor? I'll cut it out. How do you translate baramaim in English? Something that gives a, for example, when they have all the emulsifiers. Emulsifier is meant to give it up. It holds it up, ma'amid. You know cake, gelatin or something. A cake, usually cakes—there's a word. It keeps it together. Yeah, there is emulsifier. Positive agent or something. Egg in a cake. Flaking, it's—I know what you're talking about. It's called agent something. It's called— I know what you—it's called binding agent. Binding agent. Okay, go ahead. ... ... ... ...

We don't care about nightshatam lifgam, because who cares, right? Go ahead. Who said that svara? You did, right? You were making faces, so it's right. Right? That's called shvach. ולפיכך יש לו... אפילו אם המים נפגם לגמרי. So we come out that even if the thing is completely nifgam, who cares? It gives the result. Oh. I'm learning now two sugyas. Something that's pagum b'atzmoi that gets into something else. Does the pagam go from before it was put in, or are we measuring now this new object? Are we going now, now, or are we going before this is a nifgam? It's junk. It's a mold. Nobody eats it. Nobody can eat this. It's gelatin. Who's going to eat it, right? Yeah. So the question is, write this down. The sugya here is about something pagum that goes into something healthy, or now this new object has in it davar hapagum. Is our assessment, is our evaluation what went in, or is our evaluation now it is this with a davar hapagum? What went in or...? Or is it now, yesh bo davar pagum? I don't see the difference. Gelatin is a davar hapagum. There's nobody in his right mind. But again, gelatin is junk. Gelatin is junk. Four, or are we looking at the junk after a wedding? Now, you understand what I want? Clearly, it's... Clearly. Let me see if I see it clearly. One second. Wow, it's so clear. I'll tell you why it's clear, because blindly, how clear it is. There's no issue. After one in, the gelatin becomes davar hama'amid. You know, his sefardish farm that he gave me argued with this Rama. You know that. Halacha Brurah says that it's not muchach, this Rama. You don't like this Rama, davar hama'amid, he doesn't hold it. Who? Harav Brurah. What's his name? Harav Brurah. He doesn't like—not muchach, doesn't like ma'amid. After one in, it becomes davar hama'amid. It's pagum, it's pagum. Who cares? Huh? Yeah, I started. The truth is, I fell asleep on it at 3:15 in the morning. I couldn't sleep last night. I'm overworked. I'm being extremely overworked, underpaid, and somewhat unappreciated, so it becomes difficult. It's becoming very difficult. Okay, I'm going to stop over here because I'm leading you, you see. Have a very nice day. Have a good hatzlacha. You want, you're going to work or you're learning? Okay, you. See, or you can stay a little bit. I'm staying. Okay, so find yourself something to learn. You, I need one minute too. Take it, take it. Okay, you see what we're doing. You see what I'm doing. You see stuff. I'm gonna start making test. Yes, that's right.