Basar Of B’Chalav: A Separate Gezeirah or Part of Basar B’Chalav?

Transcript

So if you notice, the heading is a very important one: basar oif b'chalav. Are you taping? Oh, it's... oh. Basar oif b'chalav. Did you notice I didn't say oif b'chalav? I said basar oif b'chalav. So right there and then, you should start thinking, ooh, ooh. No, I'm not referring to anything. I want to know, is chicken meat, or is chicken chicken? But chicken is also asur with milk. Okay, maybe drabbanan. Where would you find chicken? Of course, in the meat department, the poultry department, right? But if someone would say, I'm asering on myself meat, would that be included, the oif? That's a pashut, right? So I want to know, if a person says, Here we're makpid on basar b'chalav, you should ask him, how about oif b'chalav? Is oif basar? Or if you want me to cheat, tell you the rest of the shiur already in advance, oif looks like basar, therefore it's asur. Okay. So I am a chaver. Would you tell me—you want to read it? Read it. So what is it asur mid'rabbanan, b'achilah, b'achilah, mutar b'bishul u'bahana'ah. Okay. So can Jews open up a stand? Slowly, slowly. Philly chicken steak? Yeah, I told you. Yeah, sure, 100%. It's not kosher that, it's nothing. It's oif. So you know what Philly, you want satmar—what's it called again, the steaks that you just called them? KJ, KJ. No, but what was this Philly steaks you said? Philly cheese chicken steak. Okay, so you'd have satmar Philly chicken steaks, whatever. Okay? Okay, so forget the Philly, put in the word sat. Good, next. Okay, kosher chicken. What does it mean? I know you can feed it to your goy, you can't do business with it. He's in a different siman. Can't help. Go ahead, next. You know this Bach? You heard this Bach? Oh right. So we have a sheet that holds it's asur mideoraisa. Okay, next. So what? No, we gave it halachos of basar b'chalav, so it's asur b'hanaah. There was a sheet that's Rishonim like that. Okay. So ayin Mechaber v'Shach. Yeah, but what? That it's mutar. We just learned from the Mechaber that it's mutar b'hanaah. Shach paskens that way. B'tzaref biur b'maicha. Okay. I mean, honestly, you have mekoros in Chazal, I mean, who—yeah, so each one argues with the mekoros. I mean, it's just a question of sugyas. I don't like that. Take the piece. All right, put that piece here. I like this raya, no, I don't like that raya. Yeah, that's good, but let's talk l'maaseh. What's the shaylah? What is the shayla of those mekoros? Yatza nisht. What are you arguing? I want to know where does it start. That's my question. Yeah, you're right. Okay, he's right is because it says over here this word, and there it says a Rashi, and here's a Torah. I got it, okay, but the question is why? I mean, you're saying that they learned, so you a certain way that maybe then look at everything a certain way. No, that's what he's saying. He's saying is that they're tainted by rayus this way and that way. I just want to know about the chachamim. You're saying a certain understanding game looked at those rayos yes or no. I mean, the chachamim, why did the chachamim say yada? Where does that come from? Okay. Next, v'oid, go ahead. We know that this is all...

The yeshiva world is busy with this. The whole—why? ... Everybody's busy that all issurei d'rabbanan can only be a din on the gavra and not the cheftza. Do you have to do kaparah for issurei d'rabbanan? That's the shaylah we spoke about. That's one of the shailas. Let's say a person was over not the chametz, for example. Chametz b'mishah shishis, it's you, it's not the chametz. You need to listen to chacham. The cheftza can't change. Chametz don't have a koach— ... Chametz don't have a koach to change the object. You need to listen to chacham. So the question is, could an issur d'rabbanan really be aser b'hana'ah theoretically? No. That's a chiddush you read. And the question is, how come? How come here it's a little different, that it's aser mid'rabbanan, yet hana'ah? So the ones that say it's not aser b'hana'ah, gevaldig, right? Achilah, you can't do it, but the cheftza didn't become aser b'achilah. Maybe. Maybe. And maybe not. Maybe lo פלוג. So if you want to be a pashtan, that's what you'd say. They're arguing, yeah, lo פלוג, yeah, פלוג, yeah, gezeirah, yeah, d'rabbanan. They did like it, they didn't like it, they decided. They wanted to go this far, they didn't want to go this far. Okay, do it, you can do that. Not a problem, but you could do it. It's a free country. Everybody has the right to say what he wants, I mean, more or less, huh? ... Don't bring the ... bring it. I'm not— You know that I know the mekoros. So go ahead, yeah. So who's going back to— Peshuto, יש לומר שהביאור שחולקים במה שכתב המהרש״א, ים של שלמה, ... איסורו. Right? It has to be kar in the Torah. It has to be kar. Where is the mikar? So that's the next question. Tzarich iyun, heicha ksiva aramiza. I have an answer, but I'd rather you do it with homework. I'd rather you... Where's this ikaro? I'll tell you. I don't want to tell. I do want to. There's a part of me that loves to teach, so I tell you, but a part of me that knows, is it real? I don't know if it's real, what I'm saying. But I'm not saying anything because it's not mine. It's brought down three times it says basar, right? Lois bash, three times, right? So the Gemara says one is for bishul, one is for achilah, and one is for hana'ah, right? The Targum translates all three times lois bash. So they say one's for behemah, chayah, and... I don't like it. There's nothing to catch. Many Acharonim want to say that since the Targum... so one is for behemah, chayah, and... ikrei min haTorah. I don't like it. There are those that say. Okay, move on. I don't know, I don't know. I just don't like it. Why don't I like chavis and chocolate? I don't know, because I don't like it. Okay, I am pre-tahor. Go ahead. Next, I am pre-tahor. Awesome, pre-tahor is... What do you put? Chaim. All right, so you mean I should write pre-tahor, I should write Chaim because then people listen. Oh, okay. I know, I know. Oh, he's lighting up. You know that my wife's new thing now is that they found that she's a grandchild of the Aruch HaShulchan HaKadosh. So this guy Seifer who came, of Seifer, remember? So my son-in-law had to go and tell Seifer that my wife is an eina k'ledar chayim. Okay, all good. Let's move on, yes? I don't care. I don't care about anything. I care about Gemara. Ayin Rashba. What's the difference if she wants to think she's an eina k'ledar chayim? What do you care? Ayin Rashba. Next, new next. Ayin Rashba. So here we have already, the Rashba says clearly the reason for basar oif, and the answer is maris ayin. Now, does maris ayin mean asi lachlufei? Does maris ayin mean that it looks like? No, I think it's not. I think it's the opposite of ika mina Torah. I think it's just a dry derabbanan. No, it's just a dry derabbanan, gezeirah. So there's maris ayin. Now, the truth is you could clarify maris ayin. It's really not here. Maris ayin d'Oraisa? No, no. It's derabbanan. The shaylah is, is a maris ayin, we could say maris ayin or asi lachlufei. It's really two different...

It's two different sugyas. Asa lachlufin could be a gezeira in the thing itself. Maris ayin is b'ein l'kim. So the truth is, I'm gonna put that. You see, first of all, if you notice that there's a lot of those lines, that's because the computer, I don't know how to do it, right? But maybe it's a siman l'shamayim that we have to put this as the first one. So it's a siman, you should put in this chakirah: is it the Rabbanan for maris ayin, so then it's not mutar b'chalav; it's maris ayin, it's b'ein l'kim. Or it's a d'Rabbanan of asa lachlufi, asa b'chalav. Maybe it's taluy in gezeira l'gezeira; we'll get to the sugya a little bit later. D'Rabbanan, gezeira l'gezeira, b'ein l'kim. Okay. So far so good? So far so good? Perfect. Okay. Ayin levush. Who's reading? Go ahead, Azari, you ready, ready? Yeah. Go ahead, Rav Michoel. Go ahead, Rav Michoel. Ayin levush. You don't see the difference. If you can't tell the difference between black meat and white chicken, we're in trouble. We're in trouble. It's dark meat. You have bigger problems. It's dark what? Dark chicken meat. Is that dark? It can get confusing. You have bigger problems. Talk to people who... Well, they love... No, but they're meat experts. But if you bring it to an Ashkenazi... Listen to me carefully. Everybody knows the difference between lamb chops that you guys eat all Yom Tov to the chicken Ashkenazim eat all Yom Tov. We don't know the difference. Come on, let's go. So, levush mutar b'bishul. Perfect, I love it. Echad dear lib. That's what I'm... He said perfect, because you know what the... he's starting to see what I want. I want truth. Go keep on pushing the envelope. Get down to the true... maris ayin. What's the maris ayin? Maybe the Maharatzaiin is, asi lachlufe. Maybe the Maharatzaiin is, or maybe just the inyan. Since people call it, so it's a basar b'chalav, a certain mirsas to the basar b'chalav. You should be gebenched. Okay, next. Ein ben yesh chai, go ahead, next. Okay, so this is a Tzelach, very interesting, right? Chabad says mutar b'hana'ah. Yesh omrim that it's asur b'hana'ah. Remember we spoke, the Ritva, right? The Rishonim, right? So it's not so grade the Darach HaShulchan found the Ritva. Chayei says it's a day in halacha. What's the geder to bishul? Yeah, what's the geder to bishul? You should be machmir. What's the geder to— I just told you where it is: shanah shniyah, parshas Balak, os vav. Oh, you talking on the paper. Okay, next one, go ahead. V'yesh l'va'er, stam issur l'atzmo, mipnei Maharatzaiin. We declared Maharatzaiin, yisnukei Maharatzaiin, zeira, whatever you want to say. Maybe the chacham came and said that this is also basar b'chalav. Not that they said don't do chicken, but what they did was they gave it a shem basar. Basar b'chalav is a karmin haTorah. Basar b'chalav is— you notice? B'inyan basar oif b'chalav, or should it say b'inyan oif b'chalav? B'inyan basar. Let's talk about the Shabbos. Can we talk about food for the Shabbos? Yeah, supposed to eat meat on Shabbos. Yeah, I think so. Can you eat chicken to mekayem that? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe yeah, maybe. Gezeirah d'Rabbanan... Hashem. Yeah. Huh? Which Shabbos? There, what Shabbos? Shabbos. So therefore you can eat whatever you want anyway. No, no, no. You told us that you're giving oneg to Shabbos, not that you— Yeah, I remember that, I remember that. Don't blame me. No, I'm not blaming you. Okay, well, you're giving oneg to Shabbos, not that you're getting oneg from Shabbos. Whatever I'm asking, it says basar v'dagim v'chalav matamim. So I want to know, in basar, is basar oif included? So it's your homework, write this down on the side, right? Ayin Hilchos Shabbos, k'shekasuv basar v'dagim. Now dagim, we know what dagim is, right? Right? For seudah mitzvah, and for Ashkenazim, mitzvah gefilte fish, right? As my kids— as my kids— if meat instead of chicken. Chicken, yeah, but taval u'bracha if you— Okay, so that's your answer. Go look it up. Okay, before— my kids went to the aquarium. I always used to tell them.

Let's look for the gefilte fish. I want to see the gefilte fish in the aquarium. So what do I do when I go to the zoo? Let's look in the beheima department, but you see the chickens. The question is, is it a gezeira because of basar bechalav, or this is called mid'rabbanan, basar bechalav? You like the shaila? Nice shaila. Did they say this is also included in the issur? Now, ayin. So the two things that we have to put in. What were the first two things we have to put in over here? We have to put in, what's the derabbanan, and the second thing is what's hilchos Shabbos aser. Okay. U'vizeh yisba'er—who's that? Next one. U'vizeh yisba'er. I think that's what the Maharshal means. There's nothing else. He can't mean anything. He doesn't mean the Targum that the Targum says goanoi. I don't think he means that. He means that the idea of basar bechalav is a de'oraisa d'kedin. It's not a stam gezeira for this. Ikroi. That's the Bach. I think the Maharshal's lashon is ikroi, ikroi. I'm saying, at the end of the day, if you ask the Maharshal, is it— The day is over already? Oh my gosh, I'm still just holding the beginning of the day. This is just the beginning. I'm not holding at the end. I'm getting there. What I'm doing is I'm climbing with you the steps. What is ikroi? I have no idea what it means. Right, because it's ik— I said that. So what's ikarei? What does it mean, ikarei? It means that since it has a source of it in the Torah. Which means? Which means what? Which means that we find basar bechalav in the Torah. And therefore what? This thing that is similar to the davar min haTorah. So every derabbanan is that way. No, rabbanan made up stuff out of the blue, you mean? So every derabbanan, Rabbanan do not make up stuff unless they found something, masmachta min haTorah, something. Everything is a krimeina d'Torah. That's what I mean, has a flavor of a... A krimeina Torah means it's the issur basar b'chalav, which is min haTorah. But it's still a derabbanan, though. Yes. That's why I asked. No, I'm not... Right, right. So I'll tell you the truth. If you notice, there's a stirah in the Bach about this, because on one hand he comes and says it's min haTorah, and then he comes and he clarifies if it's miderabbanan, the whole asa banah, mutar banah, and they all ask, it's a stirah in the Bach. What do you do with it? So when the Bach said de'oraisa, I don't think he made it one of the Torah arguments. I doubt he did that. Right, next. Vaiter. Next. But all the Rishonim and the Ritva that he quoted in the Rashba also even say that? Maybe. Whatever makes you happy, I don't know. U'chein yisba'er. Next one. U'chein yisba'er. Don't worry, we'll fight it out, we'll have good... Ikaro mehaTorah. Ikaro, there's something here that's... Next. U'chein yisba'er mah she'asru kama mehaRishonim. Next, who's reading? Go ahead. Who are we holding? Who? Okay, therefore, why? They gave it all the dinim of basar b'chalav. The question is, do we come and say, eh, or do we say, no, now this is basar b'chalav, so who's splitting? Basar b'chalav, asa banah. Ayin api Rabbeinu. Go ahead, next one. That's the shaila. If the pshat is that it's a regular derabbanan, bittul b'rov, that's what we'll have in... But if they gave it all the dinim of basar b'chalav, maybe it has all the halachos of basar b'chalav. This was the hakdamah I gave you to this, okay? That's the title? The title of the sugya is, do we go and say there's a new din of basar of oif b'chalav, or it's in the category, and all the dinim that apply to basar b'chalav automatically are nichlal in that derabbanan. Now we're gonna pick at it. Let's go weiter. What's the next thing that we have to pick at? Who's, who's? I don't think—tom. Ulay? Stam issur, o shenichlalet b'issur ha'ragil d'basar, ayin pri toar, siman pei zayin. Ulay tali b'hanah. אי הוה סתם איסור, או שנכללת באיסור הרגיל דבשר. If it's stam d'rabbanan, so then you could say, I don't know, whatever d'rabbanan, it's an issur achilah, fine. Remember, the Rabbanan, the sh'eilah, how could they aser the hana'ah? And the answer is, if it's a stam d'rabbanan, hachanami.

It's a sachilan, the gavra. But if they took this and said it as a shem basar b'chalav, so whatever the halachos of basar b'chalav are, they dragged it back to the original basar b'chalav. Ayin pri toar, shebasar oif b'chalav, aleph, nu, mevushal, mei chalav, which is also derabbanan, me'ushan, also derabbanan, mevushal d'chamei Tverya, also derabbanan. So we have a very big problem over here. These are all derabbanans. Double derabbanan. And it's a double derabbanan. What do you do? Amira l'amira is mutar? No, we know that on Hilchos Shabbos, right? Amira l'amira is always mutar. So let's come and say, and the answer is, asur af al gav sheheim trei... Why? Because it's kein d'oraisa? Ikar min haTorah? What should I do about that? You want me to slow down? I'll slow down. Okay. Ayin pri toar, siman pei zayin, se'if katan yud-daled, shebasar oif b'chalav. Basar oif b'chalav is asur, ei mevushal b'mei chalav. Mei chalav is not the milk, it's the whey of the milk. It's only derabbanan anyway, only derabbanan. Yet it's oif, but it's mei chalav, so it's two derabbanans and still asur. Me'ushan, it's only derabbanan. Smoke. Smoking milk and meat. To have smoked, if you wanted to have, what do they call that smoked— no, not salmon, it's the chicken meat. Chicken? No, smoked meat. Drinky? With milk in it, it's just smoked. It's only derabbanan. And mevushal b'chamei Tverya, right? I put it into the hot of Tverya, mevushal b'chamei Tverya, right? Halachically it's not called a bishul min haTorah. You can't make basar b'chalav. Asur af al gav sheheim trei derabbanan, missing a nun there. I get angry with myself, missing a nun. What's the problem of chamitferya? Chamitferya is not a real bishul. That's where the microwave sugya comes from. On Shabbos, you mevashel b'chamitferya, you should know you're not chayav on Shabbos. You know that? Microwave. Microwave is not a real bishul. And therefore it's patur. Rabbanan said, you're not allowed to be mevashel on Shabbos b'chamitferya. So therefore the question is, if I took basar b'chalav and I cooked it b'chamitferya, these are all cases of a derabbanan. It says pri teir, even though oif is only derabbanan, so what's still aser? Ayin Dagul Merevava, se'if siman tzadik, shelo daas haTaz, shebasar oif lo ne'esar b'kvisha u'melicha. Mihu, ayin Pri Megadim, וכן נאסר בשר עוף בכבישה ומליחה, אף על פי שזה גזירה לגזירה. Why? What are they arguing? Why does one say, yeah, kvisha u'melicha, and one say, no kvisha u'melicha? And the answer is exactly what I just told you. Either we come and say it's only derabbanan, so then you have to play the two derabbanan game. How far do you take this derabbanan? But if they said it has all the halachos of basar b'chalav, done. That's it. That was the takanah. That was the takanah. Whatever this is aser, this is aser. And since it's aser b'kvisha u'melicha, so too this is also aser. Two more minutes, we're almost done. V'ayin Ohr Yakar teshuva. Go ahead, next one. Rabbeinu, you didn't say today. Go ahead, so go ahead, you get two. Oh, because according to me, it's basar is b'kvisha u'melicha, so obviously all the derabbanans, which means they gave a regular din of basar b'chalav, so therefore, oshan meichalav, chamit... whatever is they gave. Okay, next, last one. V'yesh loimar. Shechal k'manah, אי הוה issa d'rabbanan l'atzmai, היכי חזי לאיתס בחדא, בשר בחלב ממש, ואינה... it's kula milta, it's all one big thing. They gave it a din. So we wait six hours also after milk? Yes, maybe. Yes, after chicken, maybe, right? L'choira, it's all part of the same seudah. I forgot to write that. It's all part of the same seudah. Okay, have a nice day. All right.