Basar B’Chalav: Understanding Mixing, Absorption, Bitul, and Steam

Transcript

Blilah. What is the word blilah? You tell me. What do you think? Mixed. Mixed. So you're going to have to know that part of basar b'chalav is all about blilah as well as bliyah, okay? So, and I'm telling you, you know, you will get to see both. You know, it's the wrong one? Okay. You got it. Winner, winner. Okay. Go ahead, go ahead. Somebody, somebody open up. Let's go. Blilah. What is that? Blilah is— Which siman? What? So far nothing, because blilah is everything. Blilah is everything, and that is, in order for something to either become chanan or for something to become, yeah, batel or not batel, a lot of it has to do with the blilah of how it mixes. You're going to need to know a lot of defining what is considered blilah and what's not considered. Means mixture. Mixture. The word blilah. If you notice, in Hilchos Shabbos you have blilah avah and blilah rakah. What does that mean? Blilah means something that, for example, you make cereal on Shabbos. Texture. Mixture. Heavy mixture, soft mixture. The word blilah. So, for example, a yavesh b'yavesh, it's not really a blilah, right? Lach b'lach is the perfect— Two liquids. What happens when you have a solid and a liquid? A lot of basar b'chalav is that. When and where is it blilah? Because without blilah, the halachos are one, and with blilah the halachos are different. Yes, and therefore it's issur d'oraisa, and therefore it's chanan, and therefore— But, you know how I look at it? Chanan is the result. Blilah is—how do you get there? Definitions of blilah are going to change the status of his sirdavuk, which leads to charan. That's the one. Blilah means mixture, okay? Then you have a sugya called bliah, which is not really... absorbing. Absorbing. Thank you, tzaddik. Or literally means swallowing. It literally means absorption. If there was in the government, ish bala chaveiro. And I appreciate if you understood the difference, because bliah is not really blilah. Bliah is the liquid to the solid becomes bliah. Only liquid-solid? Otherwise it's blilah. Right. So there's a concept of a pot getting— That's bliah. That's called blias. It's a liquid going into a metal. Yeah, because absorption. If you cook something in a pot that's only solid, it doesn't go into the pot. It's not the pot snitches to stay bliah. That's the right— That's good, makes sense. That's the right, okay, which we'll get to in a few minutes. The point is, I tell you again, you know, I'm not telling you the Shach and Taz. What I'm telling you is to view on the board what's going on. Overview, overview. What's going on. It's a solid mixing with a liquid. What is really happening? Is it liquid to liquid, blilah? Liquid to solid is bliah. Then we run into the sugya of—we can already jump to Yudaled right there—which means any meat, right, it's the opposite. Any meat cooked in a liquid, that liquid is called right there. Any meat. Cooked in a liquid. That liquid is called a reitiv, sauce. Sauce. It's like residual juices. And that reitiv is in the basar v'chalav. It's almost like, what do you call it? It's honorary. No, it's an honorary. The reitiv. You know, in America, you have all the different sauces. Ketchup. Ketchup is not reitiv, you know that. The real reitiv is residual juice of a meat that's... The brisket reitiv. The Rabbeinu would call it the heilige reitiv. Like, it's a sugya reitiv. You'd never think that sauce, which is left over from a piece of meat that's cooked, would be such a big topic. Delicious. Now, basar shmah, basar tafel, which is always a big...

So good. Do we go after what it's called? Do we go after what it tastes? Negea, min b'shes. So who's going to read me min b'shes? Beis. Glad. I think it's... Min b'mino, v'nishbach. But, v'hainu she'ein yachol la'amod alav, sheha'aro im noda shehaya rubo heter, mutar. Im lo noda shehaya rubo heter... Oh, min b'mino, אזלינן בתר... Oh, min b'mino, if it's two, we go after what? The name. Yeah. Continue. Which means when we decide what's minos and not, we go after... That's right, yeah. Im hu shaveh havei min b'mino, aval lo אזלינן בתר ta'ama. But we don't go after the taste. So min b'mino has to be meat and meat. What's the case, Rabbi? You want to say if it joins together to be aser, right? So you have, let's say, meat and meat, right? Min b'mino is batel or not batel? That's the whole question. We're going to learn that. Min b'mino is not batel. It's not batel. We're paskening. A shishim, it's batel, but it doesn't become batel b'blia. Meaning like this: all the klalim that we have in basar b'chalav, what's called two things together? Maybe it's the whole thing. Let me see how to say it in the... Are they two separate entities or they're one entity? Correct. But okay, read me again the Shulchan... I want to give the case of the Shulchan... The case of min b'mino, what we just read. Uleinyan min b'mino, אזלינן בתר... Right, so read the halacha before that. Yeah. What's the halacha min b'mino? Issur shenitarev b'heter min b'she'eino mino... Oh, that's what I want. Issur shenitarev b'heter, yeah. Min... What? ...chalav she'nis'arev b'basar. Oh, chalav b'basar. Mi'de'milk. Yeah, meat and milk, two different things. They're not the same. Okay. So then that you have to give it to a goy. Okay. Im omer she'ein bo ta'am chalav, o she'omer she'yesh bo ta'am, ela she'hu pagum mutar. But. Go ahead. Hu shelo yihyeh sofel lehashviach. It's not gonna get better later. Okay, it's pagum. It's not gonna get better. ... Okay, that's all kefeilos sugya, you're gonna learn that later. That's asking the guy. Go ahead. ... Okay, continue. Go ahead, yeah. ... azlinan batar shma. Im hu shaveh, have min b'mino. Oh, so we go after what it's called. What is 'im hu shaveh'? If it's same. Same what? Same length, same taste? No, meaning if you want to say that it's, it's, it's... I don't know. I don't think he means much more than it's the same thing. Same thing? Yeah, 'im hu shaveh,' I think so, that's all. What if you have smoked meat and cooked meat? So what it's meat, it's called meat. Depends what you call it. We don't go after the flavor, we go after what it's called. Meat and meat is called min b'mino. But borer is also like that? But again, that's a good she'eilah in Hilchos Shabbos. We don't look at that, because Hilchos Shabbos, min b'mino has to do with how much you want or don't want, right? Because really it's a different problem of borer, right? We say that if there's smoked fish and you want both of them, could be... If you want both of them, and if you don't want, because by borer it has to do with what you don't want. Different sugyos, pesulos, you see? This is a sugya of min b'min, of ke'eilah, could he taste? Okay, keep on reading, keep on reading, yeah. ... aval lo azlinan batar ta'am. We don't go after the ta'am. That's what I'm saying. Shalav just means... What is it? This is meat and meat. Is milk called milk? Is meat called milk? Is milk called meat? But if it's two pieces of meat, so we can't come and say, kfeilah, tell me, you feel the smoke in there? You feel this type of meat in there? For meat, bitul, meaning, could we come and say, do you feel it or not? Min b'mino, it has to do with basar shmah and basar. And this goes a lot into the sugya of bitul in general. You need to know the concepts of basar shmah and basar taima, l'gabei the whole sugya, l'gabei the sugya. You know, what is basar b'chalav? Is basar b'chalav an entity, or is basar b'chalav the taich that the milk added flavor into the meat? Added new flavor to the meat? I'm saying the ruling of basar shmah comes out either aser or mutar, right? That's right. So what makes it aser or mutar? No, the question is if the kfeilah could taste it. Let's say you can taste, right, because it's meat and meat. Meat and meat. So what does it mean to go basar shmah? What does that halacha mean? No, a person is going to come and say that, no, if we go by basar shmah, not basar taima. Right, so what does that mean? He can't come and—

Say I feel that it... Okay, so you can't taste it. Okay, so now what do we do? Okay, so then it becomes aser. Why does it become aser? Mi'b'mino. So that means batel shema, meaning that means literally don't go according to taste? That's all it means? More or less, yeah. But it's deeper because it's neged to the—when you have two things, how do we view the— The two things. Are they one thing or are they two things together? Together. It really has to do with that. Basa taima or basa... Okay, go ahead. Next. Hadach. Okay, so what is hadach? Hadach is a form of how to take care of cold basar b'chalav. Cold? Cold. Whenever it's cold, there's a sugya called hadach. ... harei hu k'mevushal. ... but if it's, what, 20, 30 hours, then you can just wash it off? Correct. And what is hadach? Hadach is a—we're gonna learn—is a type of getting rid of basar b'chalav. Can I just wipe it off? That's what I'm trying to say. According to many, you need hav'alah hadach. That's what I'm trying to say. Like you really need to wash it? That's the shaylah. Can I just— No. I might have to be madiach it. The whole question of madiach is with mayim. That's what I'm trying—hadach is a thing for itself. Hadach means literally a karah, a washing. Washing. Okay, go ahead. Next. Hadachas hapeh. Hadachas hapeh. Washing your mouth. Washing out your mouth. We're gonna have to talk a lot about that. What is that? You do that very often. Huh? You know what it's negea? Can I go wash my mouth with bread? Or it has to be with what? With—okay, read it, read it, read it, read it. Achal basar afilu shel chayah v'of lo yochal gevinah achas, sheyisheh shishah shaos afilu im shahak k'shiur im yesh bo bein shinayim, tzarich l'hasiro v'lostino, im matza achar kach basar shebein hashinayim u'masiro, tzarich l'hadiach piv kodem sheyochal gevinah. He has to wash his mouth. Right, but you'll look at that hachra'ah, and we'll talk about it. What is good enough for hadachas peh? Take a piece of bread, brush it out. If it's just another way of cleaning, or there's something called hadachah, we'll talk about it. That's the difference between hadachah and kinuach. Oh, that's a whole — that's part of the question. Kinuach hu sheyilos pas v'yikanech bo pi. That's what I'm trying to tell you, sheyilos, that maybe all you do is take a piece of bread and it's good enough. Or no, there's psad dochek, you gotta — No, it's not about brushing the teeth. Forget brushing teeth is a big shailah. It's also part of the same shailah. You're saying hadachah is only done one way, maybe. One way. Hadachah is water. It's a washout. It's washing. Are you trying to extricate every aspect of the food out of your teeth, or are you just trying to bread? No. Or maybe it's just some takanah that they said you have to do it, and if you don't do what it says, then you didn't do it. Nothing to do with you get it, not get it. That's why I'm talking about brushing the teeth. We're going to talk — I have a lot of Torah on this, meaning it's l'maaseh. This hadachah and hadachas hapeh might be two different sugyos. One might be a din hadachah for basar b'chalav, and one might be a hadachah, just a technical thing to get rid of it. Okay. Heter — go ahead. Heter is not mitztaref l'issur. Okay, so go ahead, read it inside. Siman צח, se'if alef and beis. ... give us a goy can taste it. Yeah. ... we see this in alef. Heter אינו מצטרף לאיסור. Alef and beis, no. ... בין במינו ... ... שאין יכול לעמוד עליו ... Heter eino mitztaref l'issur. That's it. And therefore, the issur is able to outweigh. Otherwise, now you could ask me a kasha, so, nachamo, what do I need this halacha for? Meaning, heter eino mitztaref l'issur, right? Which means that the issur, right, heter is not mitztaref, which means you could go bemevatel it. What is different than chanan? Heter. So that's the Tosfos. Tosfos, yeah. So what's the answer? Yeah, so what's the answer? Do you’re saying in one place we see it’s not mitztaref, one place we see it is mitztaref. Yeah, meaning chanan shows it is mitztaref. That's the kasha.

That's what you do. The problem with this sugya, what's the answer? So we're not saying that the mitzta'er, rather we just see the issur as if it's in the heter. It's not that the heter becomes asur; it's just we see that the issur is in. And when do we say chanan? When he gave taste. According to Rabbeinu Tam, you say chanan in any case, right? And in yesh shishim, can you get the whole piece? Correct. According to Rabbeinu Fram, in yesh shishim, only can I get the taste, except basar b'chalav. Right. So heter is not mitztaref l'issur. What do you do with that rule? Why is that a problem? Yeah, because Chanan is saying not that way. Why doesn't Chanan say heter is mitztaref l'issur? So what does that mean, heter mitztaref l'issur? What's the case that it comes up in? The case he just brought, that if you have something which is heter, it comes to the issur, you only need fifty, sixty k'neged the issur, not the heter. Oh, in regards to bitul, you're saying, okay. Yeah, so what happened? So what happened to Chanan? No? So Chanan says—why don't we say Chanan? Yeah. Heter is not mitztaref l'issur. It's not true. Chanan tells me heter mitztaref l'issur. Why can't we say that's a case where Chanan doesn't apply? Isn't that—you're saying there's a Tosafos like this? Is that what Tosafos—I don't think, I don't remember Tosafos asking. That's not what Tosafos— I was looking. That's what he told me. Okay. Maybe it's that the case where we don't say Chanan for whatever reason. Yeah, so what's—right, that's what I'm trying to tell you. But what do you do? I mean, every time you would have to ask that question, you have to come up with this, whatever detail about that situation. Exactly, a detail of why Chanan doesn't apply, and then we don't say heter mitztaref l'issur. So there's a big clause on this. That's right. So what is really Chanan? What is the story of Chanan? Somehow, somehow, Chanan makes it that it becomes one. Where it's not becoming one, you can't use heter mitztaref l'issur, meaning you can't use the heter part to create the numbers of the issur. Just because something is attached to something, heter is not mitztaref l'issur l'gabi bitul, unless some scenarios where Chanan takes over, and therefore you have to know when yeh Chanan, when not. Okay, go ahead. I see that it's late, so let's go. Next, next, next. Zeh v'zeh gorem? Yeah, what's zeh v'zeh gorem? By maimid. If you have two things, the heter is gorem and the issur is gorem. So what do we do? Zeh v'zeh gorem. Go ahead, read it inside. Tzadi, pei zayin, se'if yud aleph. I maimid, it's not batel, but what happens if it's zeh v'zeh gorem? Have a good day, Rabbi. Have a good day. What happens when it's zeh v'zeh gorem, yeah? Oh, maimid, yeah. יש בה טעם בשר, אסורה. ואם לאו, מותרת. אבל המעמיד בעור קיבה נבילה וטרפה ובהמה טמאה, אסור בכל שהוא. משום דבר האסור בעצמו, מעמיד אפילו באלף לא בטל, ואף על פי שלא היה שם מעמיד אחר אחר, רק האסור. אבל אם היה שם גם כן מעמיד אחר, בו יש two maimids, zeh v'zeh gorem, right? So if you have another maimid together with the knockout maimid, okay. So for example, if I had a gum which had two maimids, and one is kosher and one is glycerin, so then, chayri, you have this heter of zeh v'zeh gorem. We have to know the sugya. Okay, next. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Zeah. Zeah is a whole all-inclusive. Yeah, zeah is one of the biggest sugyas, and then you have to know for basar b'chalav and Shabbos. What is zeah? What is zeah? What is it? Steam. What is steam? Tami, are you allowed to cook meat—not meat, yeah, meat—together with fish in the same oven? Even do dairy in the same oven? No. You guys, I don't—what, milk? No, no, I'm asking you a simple question. Are you allowed to cook meat, what, and fish in the same, uncovered? No, because it's steam. He says steam, so I see you blowing off a lot of steam. Kaf HaChaim says clearly you're allowed. Allowed to what? You're allowed to cook fish and meat in the same oven? Yes, yes. What about the steam? Steam doesn't give taste? Lo al zeh asru. Why? That's another—so maybe it's just a refuah thing, I don't know. Listen, why do I start asking about—are we now? Now that it exists, okay? So let's discuss. One language. What is zeah? Is zeah a thing for itself, or is zeah a real thing or not a real thing, and it does...?

So I want you to do homework on this. What is vapor? Excuse me, sir, what is vapor? What is vapor? What is it? Is vapor essence? Is there something—they claim, rather not, they claim that vapor doesn't really exist. What do they claim it is? They claim that it's something—I'm saying today, they claim that it's a thing. It's a davar bifnei atzmo. It's not anything from the—it's not anything from the essence of the thing. It just—it's an entity in and of itself, and it comes out. It's not the basar or the chalav. It's not the taste in the air form. In an air form. So that's what they claim. That's what the Kav Chaim says. That's what the Kav Chaim says, right. But if you smoke things, you get a taste of it, no? No, but smoking is different. Smoking is something else. If I vapor something, you won't get the taste? No, I don't think you do. I don't think not. Yeah, you have to try this. This is your homework. Cold work. That's it. Okay, now you see where Rabbi Wolkin— So I'll go to one of your houses, cook. Okay, so tonight I need information about zea. Vaporize me. Vaporize. Next, what is zea? You should get a book on food science. I have so many ספרים on book science. You want to know something? You want to know something? That's what I want to learn basar b'chalav. I want to learn basar b'chalav like that. There's three ways we can learn basar b'chalav. We can learn basar b'chalav by every pri megadim and the machlokes. You're gonna get—you don't know how lost you—your brain is gonna explode. Your brain is—it's just so much, and every pri megadim and the Taz and the Diyu, you're gonna go out of your mind. Or you can learn basar b'chalav, yeah, the food science. Or you can learn it lomdish. I never appreciated basar b'chalav lomdish. I don't know why I have this thing with basar b'chalav. I can't do it. Kinyanim, you got me. Beautiful, the kinyan in there. Basar b'chalav. It's a tipus, it's a piece of... It's like in reality, we put lomdus into reality. I know, it makes me crazy. So the way I see the lomdus of basar b'chalav is through the food science. Let's do it. It's awesome. Let's repeat what I started. Ready now? Bliya, bliya, bishul, basar taima. Sound familiar now? It's what's happening, and it all goes back to the original shaila: what's basar b'chalav? Is basar b'chalav, is it basar b'chalav, fish and chips, fish burger and cheese, and burger or cheeseburger? No, I suppose we spoke about it. Oh, yes. Of course it's in there. No, I'm saying this is the whole thing. This is the whole thing. This is the whole thing. Does it become one entity or is it two separate entities together? Think bliya, bliya. Think issur mitztaref l'heter. Think, think, think, all this. Okay, keep on going. Go ahead, nu. Chazi litztarufei, zehya, chatzi shiur asur min haTorah. What's chatzi shiur asur? I know you could, but we're going to spend not years on it, so we have to do it quickly. Okay. Mivla bala, maflit lo palit. I know you have to leave, so we'll leave in two seconds. Ready? Mivla bala, maflit lo palit. What does that mean? Food science. Food science, exactly. All right. It absorbs, but it doesn't give off. Once it's mivla, while it's mivla, it's not giving off. Food science. Next. One-track minded. Okay, so remember, Rabbi Wolkin's shiur on basar b'chalav is... Food science. It's all about the food science. You want the lamdus? I'm going to send you to Lakewood, Chaburas, and Beis Eliahu. If you want a mutar rav ze mutar, rav ze asur, rav ze mutar, rav asur, you can go. There's plenty of shuls that do that here. Okay, next. Rishon, rishon— no, no, I'm serious. Rishon, rishon. Go ahead, no. Does anybody do it the food science way, or just do it the unique— The intelligent ones do. Yeah, from the Zalman word, the Chazon Ish word. Yeah, rishon, rishon batel. Go ahead, no. Yes, what does that mean? Rishon rishon, it's kama kama. I have it where I remember, rishon rishon batel. If I was— it's the lashon of Shulchan Aruch, siman tzadi tes se'if vav. It's not kama kama. I might be wrong. No, no, hasfishalom me anything. Go ahead, no. Rishon rishon batel, yeah? Okay. Siman tzadi tes se'if vav. Next. Reiach. We did reiach tzeli shamen and reiach tzeli kechushim. Okay, reiach. Reiach. Reiach. Food science. All about the food science. What's in the reiach? What's in the zeiah? In, out, it's coming, it's going. What if the food science contradicts what the Chazal say? We'll worry about it when it happens. I'm sure you'll find yourself a book from Bar-Ilan that says differently. Torah Chazal science. Doesn't get into it. Also, microwave now probably has a whole new dimension, right? Exactly.

Microwave. And this really? Microwave. Mine was microwave. Why? Because microwave has different cooking. It's different cooking. It's a different type of cooking. They're only doing research. Did you get that? Did you do? I hope you didn't, because that was really what I... all the different types of bishul, which we get: kavush. Interesting. You could come and see. It's two dinim in kavush. I hear, you could do that. You could spend, you know, the lomdus: chaput kavush. What's really happening by kavush? What's really happening in zeiah? What's really happening in reiach? What is a bliah? What is a blilah? The food science. Rabbi Yisrael, have a wonderful day.