Davar Sheyesh Lo Matirin: When Spoilage Changes the Laws of Bitul

Transcript

Okay, so let's see, sif daled. Are we going to speak about kemach yashan in this? Slowly, slowly. I'm so far doing the reading for you. You got to learn how to read, you know? Okay, so let's start. The Mechaber says, again, yesh mi she'omer. He has a fixation on the yesh mi she'omer's on this siman, huh? Yeah, two in a row. Two, two in this siman. No, but it says yesh mi she'omer. What's the difference of a yesh mi she'omer or a ...? I don't know. When you hold something and nobody argues with you, there's no reason to say yesh mi she'omer, right? It's a machlokes, but he holds like that opinion. You want to know something? You're not even going to find someone who really does argue. It's not so simple that anyone argues. So go explain to me what's the yesh mi she'omer. You search. In the Tur, it doesn't bring two shitos? Not really. He's saying, can this— the Gra says like in sif beis. So let's go, because there's something missing here in the siman. Yesh mi she'omer, you're not going to really find it. It's not that clear that there is a yesh mi she'omer out there that argues. And even if— what's yesh mi she'omer? Just state the halacha. No one— the Rema doesn't argue. It's not a story here. Yesh mi she'omer. So let's go. Sorry, start. Yesh mi she'omer. Dagish. Pay attention. Emphasize. Shekol hadinim kan... His lashon, yesh mi she'omer. There's too much yesh mi she'omer going on in this sif, you know? It's too much. It's paskening, that's all. Vabir yesh loimar kenal. It seems like whenever there's a yesh mi she'omer, okay, that becomes the halacha. Vedavar sheyesh lo matirin. That's the impression I get when you read. Now let's get the story. Let's get the story. What's the story? Since it's something which is, what, by the time we'll have matirin, we'll get ruined. So it's not a davar sheyesh matirin. It's not going to be edible then, right? So kemach Yoshan like that? So again, you want to drag me to kemach yashan. I'm not holding there yet. I know you have a fixation of kemach yashan. I'm not holding there yet. I still have to read, okay? In the food, once it's already mixed. Once it's mixed already, and you want to tell me—see, he's going to tell you that the sefarim bring kemach. I know that. That's where it comes from. But let's first get the reading of it, okay? Because the sefarim you can do yourself, okay? Yesh mi she'omer. Okay, go ahead. U'mi cholek? What do you mean, yesh mi she'omer and someone says differently than that? Can I remember a guy got up and said, like a chaburah in yeshiva, Ketzos wants to say— and he said, you know, it's funny because he doesn't want to say, he says it. I remember that the Rebbe liked it. Yeah, that's a good point, yeah. Yesh mi she'omer. Yeah, you know who that is? Everybody. It's a funny thing that everybody said—nobody argues. Who's arguing with this? Okay. The Bach wants to say that actually the Rambam argues. You know about this Rambam that argues on this? You ever saw this Rambam, huh? Yeah. Could be. So let's see the Aruch HaShulchan. Bring me the Aruch HaShulchan, because Aruch HaShulchan says it doesn't really exist. It's not true. The Rambam with this, this—yeah, saying that this Rambam argues on this is just not so simple. It's not true. Because what I do is, I have a way, as they say, I'm more Sephardi than you Sephardi. And that is that when the mechaber tells me yesh mi she'omer, I go, I take it serious. Who argued with this? Tell me. I couldn't find it. So let's read it inside, yeah? Tzivchavav, go ahead. Who wants to read Tziv chavav? Go ahead. I think so. It's right here. No, I was siman. Yeah. Biur haDvarim: דהנה הדבר ... החתיכה נעשית נבילה. Oh, wait, it's ... Chavav, perek tes-vav. מאכל אסור דין תס, חמץ ופסח וכו'. אינו בכלל אלו איסורים שמבטלים, לפי שאין התערובת אסורה לעולם, כי אם לפסח תהיה כל התערובת מותרת. That's good. So far, so good, right? Yeah. That's what the Bach wants to learn from this. Maybe, we'll soon see, yeah. ... אבל ... דכיוון דפסח הבא יחזור לאיסורו, לא מיקרי דבר שיש לו מתירין. Oh, because the next Pesach it's going to come back. So it goes off, but it'll come back later. Yeah. ורבינו רמ״א הביא שתי דעות. We didn't read Rama yet. Right. Which is what my mahalach in the sugya—it's really the Aruch HaShulchan does that. The two ta'amim. Everything has to do with the two ta'amim. The split in every machlokes in this siman is based, going back to the two reasons. That's how a lamdan, a baal shulchan Aruch, learns up a Shulchan Aruch. Continue, yeah. ... כיון שמעמיד ... בהיתר, בוודאי החמץ דבר שיש לו מתירין.

The ... better. ... shavui hadvarim, lo mikri davar sheyesh lo matirin. ... keivan shele'olam hu omed v'sheyachzor l'isur, ... u'vatel. Okay. ... the Rambam literally. ... Pow! Small explanation, Rabbi. He just threw that in. Rabbi, small explanation. Someone is saying that this is where the Rambam got—how long? Tell me, the bread's gonna stay forever? No. Spoiled. So then what are you talking—? So it's not davar sheyesh lo matirin. What if you dry it? The Rambam said it's— The Rambam— What? Freeze it. You can freeze it. No, they didn't have— Back then they didn't have it. Rabbi's gonna go to freezers, isn't he? How'd you know? But even freezers, they don't stay forever. Freezer burn, it gets mold, it gets bad. No, not freeze. No, freezer you can, but back then they didn't have freezers. Why not? It looks like a real Sephardi Jew. Food out of the freezer. Yeah, I grew up on food out of the freezer. I never tasted fresh food in my life. Seriously? It's all out of the freezer. I tried to get a buchan to prepare food in the freezer. Okay, okay, this is not for now. So, Bikitzur, what is he saying? Side track this year. Come on, let's go. Bikitzur, what is he saying? He says that the Rambam—they try to bring a raya that the Rambam holds something that will rot is still a davar sheyesh lo matirin, because he talks about chametz. Which means not like the Maran here. That's right. That's the— But he doesn't explain how it's not muchrach. Yeah, because who's gonna get rot? Chametz is only one week. The point is, try to eat bread after seven days. I know. We're getting it. The question where it comes from, yesh mi she'omer, what happened and that happened, okay? Good enough? It's good? So far. So far beautiful, huh? It's good stuff, huh? Very good. The Darchei Teshuvah, Achiezer books, pick this one up. This went under the radar, this one. Yesh mi she'omer, and I was looking, who, what, where, and there are those that want to say, says Darchei Shulchan, I found it, it could be those that want to say in the Rambam because of the bread, but it's not muchach. So we're back to square one, that really who's arguing, a diuk in a Rambam? That's cute. Okay, move on. V'yesh l'havin — next one — bameh cholkin? Who is the — if there is a machlokes, if there's a machlokes, what are they arguing on? And the answer is, as the Darchei Shulchan and as all the great giants before me have done, it has to do with the two ta'amim. The way we set up the siman, is the reason min b'mino, or is the reason why do it b'isur if you could do it b'heter? The first shiur. The first shiur. I started. No, the min b'mino, that was what we said. Those are the ta'amim, the machlokes. Yeah, is it about the thing, you could eat it good? Okay, go ahead. V'yesh l'havin bameh cholkin, v'nira sheb'ta'amim sh'la'din lo yecholkin u'kenal. So let's work it out. If it's going to rot, right? So what's the question? The question is, do it b'isur, do it b'heter, don't do it b'isur, right? Yeah, but if it's going to rot, so what do you want from my life? You tell me to wait till it rots and there'll be fine. What's the scenario? I have a piece of bread or a piece of chicken or whatever, and it fell into the pot. So we say don't do bitul. You know why? You can eat it later when it's kosher, when it's fine. Next week. Why make bitul? Why do that? It's a davar sheyesh lo matirin, and the issur will fall off, right? You don't need to do the bitul. Yeah, but if it's not going to be fresh, then it's not a davar sheyesh lo matirin. What do you want? But if the reason has to do with, is it or isn't it min b'mino, what is matir? Matir is the issur. It's not on the cheftza. It's not the thing is edible or not edible. It wouldn't matter, same min b'mino. It wouldn't make a difference. How are you talking about the texture of the thing? What does that have to do with the texture of the thing? It has to do with yesh matirin. It's like it bounces out at you. It's obvious. If it's the cheftza, then you have to talk about the issur. You're not talking about the texture of the chicken. But if it's about you, why do you, when you need to eat fresh, go to an Ashkenazic home, you'll never eat fresh in your life. Well, what do you need it for, right? Okay. Next one. Hamechaber shehama'achal... Oh, notice, what does he say? The ma'achal, the ma'achal. So I want to know.

What happens if it's not maichal? I mean, he gave me a case of keli, no? There's no story about keli, no? Yeah, there is a case of keli. So what happens if the keli will break? I'm trying to— No, but food is bound to get spoiled. Do you know who says that? Me. I just said that. It's the next line. Go ahead. Haloi b'davar sheyesh matir meirinan, yeah? So it should have said davar. I mean, why he went to— it should have said, when do we say davar sheyesh matir? Only if the davar is not miskalkel. I mean, we follow through this talk like that, right? Right. We're talking about a davar sheyesh matir, lo im hadavar miskalkel, right? Why do you go back to— you just mentioned keli. You just spoke about a keli. So continue with— Maybe the Rambam's talking about a case where it's gonna, right after Pesach, let's say, it has a chance of lasting even for a little while. We're talking about— my whole— because everything— we're working on this. We're working on it, okay? And the answer is, right, u'ma im ze kli hu k'din ha'nal b'sif gimmel, im omed li'shaver. What happens if for some reason the keli will break? And the answer is, it's not the same thing. This is food which inherently will spoil. U'lai maichal memeila miskalkel. V'loi hakol sheyeshar ha'kli, v'loi ha'kli sheyishaver. It has to break. It was not gonna break by itself, which goes back to the original thing. The davar is a miskalkel, which means this thing— it's not about heter and issur later, but is this thing a min b'mino or not? Any outside intervention is not relevant to the davar, if it's a davar sheyesh lo matirin. Is that how we start? You want to explain to me the chiluk. There's two reasons why. Does he have seif aleph bring the first page? Talk to him. No, talk to him. No, no, no, you don't have to make a copy. I said talk to him. Tell him the two reasons. He has it. He has the first page. I have second, third, and fourth. It was on the back. Was it cheftza or something? But we said more because it's talui in the ta'am, right? Here's the reason: because of davar shematirin, why be a bad guy? Right, I did. I spoke. Kan pegi'ah, you forgot that? Yeah, forgot. Some say the problem is, why be a bad guy? Just wait till it's mutar and finish. Why do you have to make bitul? Just be kosher, that's all. Others say once it has a heter, so it is not the same thing as heter, right? It becomes min b'she'eino mino. It's very lomdish svara, the Ran. Ran says a chiddush that when something is a davar sheyesh lo matirin, right, you can't compare it to the issur mixed in, right? When it mixes in, what happens is that it becomes min u'mino, heter with davar sheyesh lo matirin. No, so min b'mino is not batel. Min b'mino is not batel. So the davar sheyesh lo matirin, you hear? So it becomes part of the—like a davar shel heter, part of the soup, whatever. So it becomes a davar shel heter. No, because he's saying this concept of bitul doesn't apply over there. The min b'mino, you need much more. It doesn't apply. So how much you need? No, Chazal say that because you can't be mevatel it. Because it's a davar sheyesh matirin. Because a davar sheyesh matirin, so it looks, so the whole thing becomes min b'mino. And let's say if it would not be min b'mino, that's bittul. Even if it would be davar sheyesh matirin? No, because it's a davar sheyesh matirin, since it's called min b'mino. The heter and this thing is the same thing. It becomes one. Therefore, it will only be batel, no matter what. Okay, move along, move along, go ahead, next one, yeah? ... It's not about at the end it's going to be mutar, so why do a gezeirah? ... You need more. You need that it should happen by itself. So maichal is something that in itself will become mutar. You can't have any outside intervention to make something a davar sheyesh matirin. Sound familiar?

Right, metzoyis, right? This whole sugya, it's a very interesting sugya, yeah? Okay, b'mechaber... mitkalkel. Could you give me the level, the—what's called the mitkalkel? Not edible already. Also, you say that. Most poskim, you and the poskim. Most poskim say not like you. So he holds like the other—don't take it personally. He holds like the other. That do hold like that. Then what, it has to, like, totally just gone? So let's see. Kama, how much is it mitkalkel that if it's mitkalkel, it's called a davar sheyesh lo matirin? If it's mitkalkel, right, it's called a davar she'ein lo matirin. How much, yeah? Ein pri toya, says the Pri Toar, even a little bit mitkalkel. Loi be'ina nifgam ad she'eino ra'ui l'achilah. So who said not like that? The poskim that just said it. Or Zarua said, right? Or Zarua's ta'inas— The Yam Shel Shlomo says like you. Okay, but go ahead. Ein kreisi. If it's eino meshubach, it means now it's not fresh. It didn't get root. So we're playing now with how much—meaning it's still edible, it's just not fresh. Yeah, it's just not geshmak. It's not. Well, everybody according to his own level. The question—let's say for you, it's a little bit mitkalkel, it's not edible. That's it. I wrote that. Yeah, that's right. What an Ashkenazi would eat is fary with— No, I mean, I don't even mean as a joke. Yeah, I wrote this. That's the point of the shitah. That's the point. I don't know what happens if it's, like, I don't know. And another question: let's say it's edible for you, for a person, it's edible for an animal. So that already we can talk about— So what's asur for Sefardim might be mutar for Ashkenazim. That's right. But if it's pas palter, definitely. Definitely most... Not food anyway for you guys; it's mutar anyway. Okay, go ahead, yeah. It's a new expression: eino ra'ui l'achilah Sefardi. Okay, v'chein meduyak lashon haMechaber. Throw in a Bechari there. V'chein meduyak lashon haMechaber, go ahead. Mitkalkel, kalkal. Ah, notice he didn't say, he said mitkalkel. Mitkalkel means kilkul. It's destroyed. To whom? It's just not fresh; it's spoiled. It's spoiled, right. Arayah. And the biggest proof is beis Shanalda. Beis Shanalda, you know what the best egg is? That day. Bei b'yomo. Once it's already a second day, it's a lesser. It's not spoiled, but— So he wants to say it's not דאורייתא? That's fresh. But you buy eggs from the store, those are rotten eggs. They're weeks old. They're weeks old. You're talking about, like, fresh out of the oven thing. No, fresh out of the chicken. Same concept. We don't have it because we don't— You know who used to have this? Shechting animals, they tied this thing. They shecht and eat right away. I heard this from people. When you slaughter the lamb in the backyard, it's much more— it's fresh. I'll tell you the truth. It's a machlokes, you and the crazy. Crazy. Maybe you're crazy and he's crazy. Crazy says not like you. He says, take a look, Beis Shanalda. He brings this raya. Beis Shanalda, it's much better when it's fresh. You know when you crack an egg, there's like a little bit, like, white, white, white, white spot? That's from sitting out. From sitting. Fresh eggs don't have that. That's why my neighbor has chickens. You have a neighbor that has chickens? Benny has chickens. Benny has birds and stuff. Okay, go ahead, yeah. What happened to Benny? He used to come a lot. Who's Benny? Yeah, he's got all these kids alone here. Oh, Yochanan there, Yaakov. He's uncle. I don't know, someone, obviously recruited him. I'm gonna recruit him back. Okay, v'yesh lachkor. Mah hu im lo nifgam? Lo nifgam? Lo shelo meshubach. What happens if it's somewhere in the middle? That's like a very... I don't know, it's not ruined, but it's not... Something, it's just not fresh. She'eino tari? Not fresh. Tari is fresh. Adam lo ra'ev lo yochal. The hungry, he's hungry, he'll eat. It's... I don't know, this question. One day old sushi. Yeah. Would you go and eat one day old sushi? Nobody eats one day old sushi. Why? I'm talking. I would eat a ten-year-old sushi. What are you talking about? If you're hungry, you'll eat it. But if you're not hungry, you're a spoiled guy.

This is a cold guy, right? He has to eat bread and sleep on the floor. Most people don't eat. I'll be all right. It's like a day-old slice. And you know something? You know what? The rice that they make, they make him in buckets. That's for a few days. No, they make the rice. No, the rice, the green. He thinks it's sushi, that green stuff. You know, okay. The rice they make, the rice they make in his mouth, sushi, the green stuff. Go ahead. Tommy, you ever saw ginger the color of ginger? It ain't red. Okay, now let's go. Ulay talui. Last night gave me sushi. I don't know. I saw it. Watch, what do you call it, the— no, that red thing is the Chinese guy who cut— the Chinese guy was cutting the, what do you call it, the ginger and it turned red. His finger. Okay, go ahead. Ula, yeah, there we go. Wuhan sushi, a new sushi. Go ahead. Imported from Wuhan. Ulay talui, yeah. Betam hadin, shedavar sheyesh lo matirin. Oh, so now let's go back to the reason. If it's mitam sheyachol leheter, maybe if it's not that gishmak, what do you tell? Eat it, it's not gishmak to eat. It's not so enjoyable. It's not fresh. But if it's about min b'minoi, what's fresh, not fresh, what's the difference? It's mutar. You would call that egg kilkul, second-day egg? I didn't say it's kilkul. He says they have the— the price. The price says no. The price says you see that that's not enough. The fact that it's one day old is not enough to say it's not edible. That's what he wants to say. It is mitkalkel. But I want to know something in the middle. It's not mishubach, okay, you're right. It's not one day after one day it's no good. No, it's still good. It's somewhere in the middle. It's dry bread now, I don't know. It's old piece of chicken. It's edible. Let me ask you a question. Let's say you have a person, a guy that has his own farm. Every day he has fresh lamb, fresh chickens, fresh eggs. To a person like that, something like second day, third day, is that considered? As we spoke, you're asking the same question that you asked me five minutes ago, which I told you is this question: who decides what is or what's not? And maybe it has a lot to do with the metzius. You mentioned fresh. You're saying mitkalkel. I can't help you, but it is. I can't fight with a chrayim. They bring it. So that's retuk, a fix for getuk. See? I didn't finish yet. I didn't finish. Go ahead, continue. You're saying the word ruin, according to different people means different things. Yeah. For him, ruin maybe wouldn't be ruined. Maybe. I'm asking. And then maybe ask the same of davar sheyesh lo matirin. Do it b'heter, I wouldn't eat this, but he would. But if it's about heter, I don't know. If I would, for me it would be. Maybe. I'm just asking. I mean, you want to learn. I'm asking you. You want a pasuk. You guys walk around, you're all chief rabbis, okay? So I'm asking you. Go ahead. Rabbi Skazal. Rabbi Skazal. Go ahead, continue. Nu. Yes, Skazal. Okay. If it's about, do it b'heter, but I'm not going to eat this. What do you want from me? I have to eat it with stale now? But that's, I shouldn't do because I eat stale? What if the tam is davar, as long as it's edible, it's edible. What are you going to say? So it became mutar. There is a makom to be matir it, because it'll become mutar. But you yourself would be spoiled and not eat it, so therefore what? Or maybe no. Maybe you tell me, do it b'heter. I'm not gonna eat it tomorrow. What do you want from me? ... get to the base ta'amim. It's beautiful. Okay, continue, yeah. Next, ayin yam shel Shlomo. ... shelo nitkalkel, legamrei. ... raya dain le'achlei dachak. Avadah sheyesh matirin, ud'loi kaha pri toyar. What's the pshat? V'yesh lomar, shelo amad ... mishtaneh. So it didn't change. As long as one day it'll become mutar, right? It'll become mutar. I wouldn't eat it, so what? Therefore, davar sheyesh lo matirin is not ... It's not your personal taste. Beautiful, beautiful. Okay, continue. Freezer. So what about the freezer? Okay, ayin Pri Toar. Oh, what happens if it gets cold enough to warm it up again? I'm gonna eat it cold? Chicken? Who eats cold chicken? Who eats cold cold? You gotta be insane to.

Right? So what happens? Maybe that's called what? It's not a davar sheyesh lo matirin. It's finished. Frozen. That's it. One second, Rabbi. You put it there yourself. Huh? You put it there yourself. It becomes cold. Let's say a chicken lays an egg. I put it in the freezer myself, but I created that. Let's say it just turns cold. Leaving it turns cold. Is that enough for... It became cold, okay? No, it's a davar sheyesh lo matirin. I think it's cold. That's edible. Everything gets cold. That's edible. That's what he's saying. I don't know. It becomes cold and you have to warm it up, which is everything the next day. Everything, l'choira, right? I don't know, but he says it. What does he say? Yeah. What? This is talking about hotza'ah now. What does he mean? It costs money, I guess, like... like cost kelim. According to this, nothing is batel. That's right. I mean, not everything. I don't know. That's what I'm asking. According to this, everything is batel. I don't know. I shouldn't say, because... I don't know. That's why I'm here. ... lo mevatel, lo mesham... ... for tevilas keilim we took some kind of a lump that it costs money. Why? You have to pay money. I don't know, maybe I write that. ... lo tircha... ... ma'aseh. Time is money. Time is money, yeah. So you're never gonna have... You're never gonna have the... Anything that you have to put into it and it doesn't by itself is not a davar sheyesh lo matirin. You're not gonna have davar sheyesh lo matirin. You like it? Yeah. Everything costs money. Everything... ... stuff. Good. That's right. According to this, everything is mutar. They have heker flour, which has barley malt in it. Right. The flour itself is yashan, but it has barley malt. So they keep asking, Call your rabbi, and I don't understand. It's just... Barley is one of the... I want you to make a hundred phone calls, because they said, Call your rabbi. Go ahead, yeah. V'hu dayav. Go ahead. What did they mix in with barley and what? It has barley malt. Malt from the barley is mixed with... Okay. Maybe it was hard work to heat up stuff in those days. But today it's not hard, but like we said, it's still... No, but it costs money. It costs money, right? Really? Two cents? Two cents? Not two. Two cents. We said a hotzaah, we didn't put a minimum on it. They're raising the price. Now you understand the shiur, okay? Now you're learning with me? Did you get all this from your cheaty book? Are we going to the Rama? Next year. So I think my question is telling the Rama is about taste and everything in the Rama. Let's move on. Next year, Chumash, let's go. So what I say now is that I must stop the Chumash or I have to leave now. Either or.