Hilchos Basar Bechalav: Its Halachic Status and the Meaning of Derech Bishul

Transcript

So we're going to start all the way, and we're going to read. This is reading class. This is what we call basar b'chalav kindergarten, Aleph base. Okay, you ready? Hakdamas Maran HaMechaber. What's the first heading? Let's start with the heading. Who's reading? Glad you read. No? Beis Yosef. No, go ahead. Okay. So the first thing is, are we all in agreement that Maran wrote that? Who wrote the headings? So that's where we're holding, the level of... they don't even know who wrote hakdamah. Pashut it was him. Okay. So is there any reason not to learn the hakdamah? Is there any reason for that? It's the same way you... No, that you don't have to read. That's fine. You better give me credit for it. Just kidding. Yes, listen carefully. Hakdamah. What's the hakdamah? Be'eize basar noheg din basar b'chalav. That's a very interesting wording, right? I would have wanted it should read issur, on what is chal issur basar b'chalav. Be'eize basar noheg. I know. Then it's good, right? Noheg, noheg, so you like the diyuk, right? So who's reading? Go ahead, read the paper. V'heich nikra b'yesh lo dakdek bilshono. Shelo kasav, v'eize basar asur b'basar b'chalav, ela kasav noheg din basar b'chalav, v'yesh lefaresh. So pashut you could say because it's not just issurim, there's many other parts to basar b'chalav, right? It's not only issur, right? I don't know, there's an issur hana'ah, there's an issur bishul. So I think he wants to say a little more. I think he wants to say is that it's chal on the basar, the dinim of basar b'chalav. Issur basar b'chalav is not just issur. It's a lot of dinim that come from the issur basar b'chalav. It's chal on it, the parsha of basar b'chalav. I know that you don't understand what I'm saying, but if you think and learn it—you understand what I said? Okay. I know that you can't. I'm telling you, from where you come from, it's very hard for you to understand what I'm saying. He who learned in the yeshivas, that's what they would tell you in the yeshivas. The issur of basar b'chalav is not just issur, mutar and asur. It's all the dinim that are chal on this basar, and there can be many. There's a achilah, there's a hana'ah, there's a bishul. I'm trying to think of a way of giving it to you that you should understand it from where you're coming from, and I'm trying to think. Are you saying that all of that is included already in the word issur? Correct. I'm saying, in other words, it's which basar— Otherwise, why is Rabbi saying issur is issur achilah only? No, I'm just trying to tell you, no, even the word issur— Maybe it includes all of it, issur hana'ah, issur bishul. Correct, but what does he want with the din? Because the truth is, it's chal on it, a din basar b'chalav. Wait a minute, and because of that you have all the dinim. But you רבי would say, if you just write issur, you would think just the achilah, din coming to teach you all three. No, no, you see, you didn't even understand the עומק of what I said either. It's a lot deeper. Basar b'chalav is not just issur. Basar b'chalav is that the basar b'chalav is chal on it, din basar b'chalav. Later on, we'll get to it. This is a tremendous hakdamah. I think you need to know this in the advance. It's not basar b'chalav is asur, no. Basar b'chalav, it's chal on it, din basar b'chalav, as a new label. It's called... We'll talk. It's nogea to fifty different things. You want to do reading, let's do reading, okay? So the first thing is keep in mind, and I know the day will come you look back and go, Oh, that's what you meant by din basar. You'll get it. It's not that basar b'chalav is asur b'achilah. It's not what it is. It's chal on it, a new shem of basar b'chalav. And the din of basar b'chalav is chal on it. The nafka mina is not important. All you have to know is that the mechaber is not just saying on which basar is asur, the basar b'chalav. That's not what the question is. The chal on it, a shem, a din of basar b'chalav. What are those dinim and what are the nafka minas, we'll get to it soon. But it's not just simply issur basar b'chalav. It's a din of basar b'chalav, all right? Now comes with dinim. One of those dinim is that's asur.

That's true. ... But there are dinim derachal on basar b'chalav. Let's continue. You'll get it. Continue, and what's the next din in the mechaber? No. Mahu. No? Who's reading? Read. Mahu nikra. What's called? Called bishul. Nechshev bishul? Called bishul. It's about what we call it, maybe. Let's talk about it. Mah nikra, what is called bishul. Okay, so those are the two things that right away, when you read, should jump out at you: din basar b'chalav and nikra bishul. Okay. B'shulchan Aruch, continue. Go ahead, Nissan. Eina asur ela... no, yesh lachkor: mah peirush b'derech bishul. Derech means lafuke when it's not the derech shinui. Derech bishul means that it has to have an act which is bishul. See, you liked it. You know why you like it? Because you did the work before. When you do all the mareh mekomos and you understand what I'm talking about, I'm coming already after all this. When we say derech bishul, there's two ways to translate derech. Derech means lafuke what's not normal. That's right, for example, the microwave. Or derech bishul is that it's not the— that's the right word I'm looking for. No, no, right, it's not bishul. You got there in the same way, but it wasn't bishul. Not bishul, like soaking. Exactly. Why can't it be? It could be, it can, it could, it could, it can. I don't care. Couldn't care less. You could do it. Let me tell you something: you can write any sefer you want. I couldn't care less. You ask me to read for you. Did you come over to me and ask me, can I read with you? This is what I would do. You want to know how I would read? The first thing that would pop into my head is, din basa b'chalal. That's the first thing that would pop into my head. The second thing that pops in my head is, ma nikra? Nikra. What's called? Called? What it means, is it a telephone call? Is that what's called? What, in the advertisement books? What is called? What are you referring to? And then derech bishul becomes a big topic. What is called derech bishul? Go ahead. Ayin Shach, go ahead. You want to say, Tomer? You want to say? Ayin Shach, yeah. So Shach learns it's coming to be mמעט kvisha umelicha. Now, l'choira, derech ha'olam, kein. It's not normal. Kvisha is not a normal way of doing it. It's normal, just it's not called bishul, not called bishul. I don't know whatever it means, but it's normal. Can't say it's not normal. It's not—that guy did it differently, but it's maybe not called bishul. Tell me, how do you make lox? Anybody know how you make lox? Salt and sugar together. Okay, now here's the question: do they cook lox? No. Do they smoke lox? No. Do they pickle lox? Yes. Not really, kind of. What do they do? It's a procedure. Does it actually—oh, it cooks it without cooking it. You don't know that lox is never cooked? No. It's cured. Who is the first—who is the first person to create sushi? It wasn't the Japanese. It was the Yidden in the Midbar when they ate lox and cream cheese sandwiches. Of course. There's no rice in bagels and lox. Okay. Sir, is there an issur bishul, akum, on lox? That's the question. How do you know? Okay, so this is all what you— you asked me to read for you, this is what I read in this mechaber. Derech bishul means the result is there. I can say it's raw; lox is not raw, right? But at the same time, didn't cook it. Can't say you cooked it. Okay, continue, yeah. Leish lachkor. Go ahead. No, who's reading? Go ahead, you. That's the question. That's what we're talking about. Go ahead. Yesh lachkor, go ahead. No, mahu? האם בעניין דרך אכילה, או דילמא הוציאו בלשון... It's a mistake, בלשון. Yeah, you gotta forgive the— you gotta forgive when I typed this. בלשון בישול, ולא בלשון אכילה. רק דרך בישול מינה, ולא דרך אכילה. Very simple. הוציא הכתוב בדרך ועד בדרך בישול.

Yeah, do you need derech achilah, which means derech bishul asur Torah, and maybe then, you don't need derech achilah because lo achilah asur. No, it's very simple. Yeah, it's a simple question. If hotzia kas derech bishul, which means it doesn't say achilah, it says bishul, so you need derech bishul. So maybe you don't need derech achilah, or do you, or don't you? You have an answer to that question? Ah, so the Pischei Teshuva, then it's good. If the Pischei Teshuva says it, then it's good. So let's learn the Rambam, because this is one of the most controversial Rambams. Go ahead, you have the Rambam there. Yesodei HaTorah, perek hei, halacha ches. Sick person, that's right. That's right. So it's good reading? Are we reading good? Is that good? Okay, good. When did we say you're not allowed to use forbidden things to heal yourself? Only when it's dangerous. When you're in danger. It's only when you're using them the way that you benefit from them. Like they feed the sick people crawling insects, or chametz bPesach, or they want to give them chametz on Pesach, or they feed them on Yom Kippur. But if you're benefiting from them the way that you don't normally benefit from them, like they make a bandage or melugma, mechametz, they need some sort of medicine from chametz or orlah, or mashkin oto dvarim sheyesh bahem mar me'urav, they put bitter—oh, they put bitter in it, they put peppers in it, yeah, peppers, yeah—issurei ma'achal with other forbidden foods, you're not having any benefit in your mouth, harei ze mutar, afilu shelo makom sakanah. So let's get clear. The Rambam's saying—oh. So the Pischei Teshuva is really a Rambam. Oh, he does it from a Karp. Pischei Teshuva is really a Rambam. Now, you should have really, like, started to squirm. Did it say derech achilah or it said derech hana'ah? Right, it's different. Okay, gotta work on this. It's part of your homework, okay? Go ahead. Now let's do the Rambam in Macholos Asuros, where the Rambam says— Is that Rambam, based on our previous Rambam, where we drink non-kosher vitamins? It's part of it, yeah. But the problem is that's for choleh, right? We don't do l'chatchila; it's for choleh. Okay, continue. Sorry, he melted the fat and he swallowed it. It was so hot it burned his throat. Or he mixed it into bitter things. Okay, he added these bitter things to these forbidden foods and he ate them. When they're bitter, or he mixed it into bitter things after it was rotten already. He added these bitter things after it was rotten already. He added these bitter things to these forbidden foods and he ate them. He added these bitter things to these forbidden foods and he ate them. Here he talks about that the food is not edible. Here he talks about derech hana'ah, and here it's food not edible. Homer, homer, homer, homer, homer, homer. Either way, basar b'chalav is different. Basar b'chalav is different. So what do we see from over here? That there's no—derech achilah is taka patur. It's not patur. We should learn out, just like by bishul we say it has to be derech bishul, why don't we say derech— You see clearly, no? And it has to do the label. It has a label, but not yet. I'm not interested in saying Torah. I really—can I explain to you? I really don't care about the results of this year. You asked me to read. I'm going to read with you, and I'm going to read till your ears fall off. No, seriously. It's a simple question: derech achilah asrah Torah, derech bishul asrah Torah. So how about the reverse? Simple question. So by achilah, do you need derech achilah or not derech achilah? According to the Rambam is mashma, you don't need derech achilah; it'll be aser anyway, okay? All in the bishul. All in the bishul has to be derech bishul. By achilah, it doesn't have to be derech. That's what it says, Rambam.

So you can read now the Shach. Read me again Melicha, the Shach, and read me the Pischei Teshuva. Okay, yeah. Is there any more to that Shach, or that's finished? Okay, continue, yeah. And the Pischei Teshuva says, V'af shelo kederech achilah v'hana'ah asur, v'lo ke'alaf, and you also get malkus. Because you see the Mechaber said one thing, derech bishul. I'm so happy. I'm so happy there's Pri Megadim. So what do you want from me? What does that do to me? All I'm saying is what the Rebbe's saying. When the Pri Megadim says it, then it's good. You asked me to read. I don't read first Pri Megadim and then go back to the Mechaber. First I read the Mechaber, then I'll even go back to the Pri Megadim. I'm with you. Now it's good. All right, so רבי חייא, read me the Pri Megadim, go ahead. ... עשה קלומר, meaning the Shach started out his dibur with the word klomar. Ah, you see how in the Pri Megadim learns klomar. You see what I was doing? I had the klomar in my head also. The klomar. The Shach is bothered by what does it mean, derech. Something is not clear here, and why derech achilah is asur and derech bishul is mutar, not derech bishul is mutar. Klomar, klomar. Go ahead, Pri Megadim is good, Rabbi Wolk not good. Klomar, go ahead. So he says, אפשר מילה דרך קאמר. הוה ליה למימר שאין אסור אלא בבישול, not derech bishul. What's derech bishul? Continue. Oh, the kolal tzli v'cham l'toch cham, etcetera. All different stories of it, yeah. So. Cross out Birchas HaAret, right? Birchas Megadim. Birchas Megadim. His, his, what you call it, his version of Birchas HaAret, write on him, Birchas Megadim. Now you look at the Chavos Daas. Chavos Daas argues and says, No, no, no, no, no. You're not learning the Rambam right. You're not learning. Really, you need Derech Achilah too, and really you need Derech Hana'ah too. Ah, the Rambam? You're not learning the Rambam right either. You didn't read the Rambam. The story of the Rambam is it was good and you ruined it. Chavos Daas. Look on your paper, siman kuf gimmel, se'if katan aleph. We'll check. I think it's a great idea. And then we'll do it e-board also. You asked me to read. Did you ask me to read? I'm reading with you. I think we have to get those things, like for the kids, with the aleph-beis, you know, with the kamatz and the patach. The honey? Yeah, we have to get one of those kid books for reading. Yeah, the reading book, Alef Bina, that's right. Vasim b'chol Alef Bina. Go ahead, yeah, nu. Yeah, nu. Not okay? Yeah, Chavos Daas, it's there. Okay, let's go back. Now, ulefizeh yesh lo mechudash. Go ahead. Ulefizeh yesh lo mechudash, yeah. Point to Chavos Daas, I think there's a very chiddush. There's two types of din of derech achilah. Derech achilah means the food has to be derech achilah, or the ma'aseh has to be derech achilah. When we talk about derech achilah, do we mean derech achilah? I don't know. The food is good; the question is how you ate it. Or is the food not food? Vitamin swallowing. You look at Rav Moshe's teshuva, it's really both. The vitamin is not the food, and the swallowing is not derech achilah. That's right. No flavor, right? No flavor. Okay, continue, go ahead. Vanafkamina, what's the nafkamina? No? Really, he says vitamins are food? We know that. I spoke about this. That's why you'll have treif vitamins. Don't bother me now with, do you want your vitamins, you don't want your vitamins. You want me to read, you ask me to read. Vanafkamina, go ahead. Badivla, bbasa vchalav bmagevet. Tell me, are you allowed to have a towel, meat and milk, wiping your hands, meat and milk, and then you want to put it in the washing machine?

What is this? We're concerned with what, with heat? You tell me, I don't understand. Let's say your hands are greasy. You like the shaila? It's tapug, is it? Maybe, I don't know. Some people, the way they eat, when they wipe their hands afterwards, there's more food on the towel than there is on the plate. In the washing machine, there's soap in there. There's soap in the washing machine. So here's not soap. Can I do without soap? Can I wash in hot water? Yeah, let's have a milchig towel, have a milchig towel. Can I take with the milchig towel and clean fleishig spoon with it when it's hot? You say no. It's a machlokes, you and Reb Shlomo Kluger. Wow. Where would we place our bets? It's amazing. It's amazing. Okay. Shailos u'teshuvos... You like the shaila? You didn't see that in your cheating books, huh? No. You didn't find that on Google, did you? You want to read? Let's read. Let's go, game, let's go. Yeah. That was a cannon shot. Go ahead, Nu. Go ahead. V'nafka mina b'nivla b'basar v'chalav b'magevet, in a towel, in a towel. Ein shaila... Shlomo, which is Reb Shlomo Kluger. You know why I called it a... Shlomo? He wrote a thousand teshuvos, he wrote. That's just only a thousand. Only a thousand. There's more, I'm sure there's more here. Okay, continue, yeah. She'roitzeh la'asos rak heicha sheyesh mamash... Skip the little nun over there, it's supposed to be a vav. V'lachluchis, ul'choira, yeah, talui b'anal, right? Derech achilah bishul, derech... I mean, it's normal to wipe your hands on a towel, right? This isn't a way of cooking. Not a way of cooking. All right. What's he dealing with over there? I told you exactly. Look it up in the Aleph L'cha Shlomo. He wants to know when you have towels, fleishig towels, milchig hands, you have a problem of basar b'chalav. A fleishig spoon to wipe with a milchig towel that just came from cheese. He says, oh, he wants to say there's no residue on the top; it's just inside. So therefore, even if it comes together, not derech. There's no derech. It's a derech of something. There's no derech. If he says if it's there, then it's there, right? Which is one of my great questions. You ready? You'll soon see how I bomb, you know, carpet-bomb this sugya. Ready? Go, continue, watch. Yesh l'ayin. So so far we had shelo k'derech hana'ah, which is also that Rambam, right? L'choira yesh l'havi raya minisraf afaroi, amim Rambam. It's aser. What do you mean? You're gonna tell me that's derech hana'ah? Unless maybe it is. Maybe it's normal. Afar. When you burn basar b'chalav, what happens to the ashes afterwards? Also aser. Even if you cook with charcoal, basar b'chalav, charcoal, the food becomes aser. So that's the question, unless that's derech maybe, it was normal, I don't know. What would they do in the potential? I don't know. You have to be me'anegbarim, it's issurei hana'ah. No, it's an igbarim. I'm saying, is there a use? I mean, if there's no use, then... So why are you asking me? You claimed that you learned it every day. I don't know, what do you want from me? I'm not learning Yodea. I'm learning fifty other things. They make soaps, so maybe... I don't know. So l'chorah there was, there is. You see kids, people with black teeth. It's that. It's not... They have charcoal. They make pills out of it. I know that's something else. That's supposed to be for health, to digest. So do it. What do you want? I'm with you. I don't know. So this chiddush maybe doesn't apply. I'm saying maybe. Maybe yeah, maybe not. I have a right to read with you. You want me—this is going to be the new punching bag. You want me to read? Okay, I'll read with you. I'm reading. Good. Pri Tohar. Look at the Pri Tohar a little bit. You have a Pri Tohar there? You have it? You don't have it. Okay, next. You guys have Shulchan Aruch that has more mefarshim than there was on the whole Shulchan Aruch period, and they don't have Pri Tohar. Anything but the Pri Tohar. Okay, go ahead, next. Kasha. You ready? Go ahead, read. I'm ready to carpet bomb you. Let's go, kasha. Nu. Once again. If it's not kemach, it's asur, it's still asur. It's chayim. ... chavis daas, it's asur. Why is it not derech bishul? I don't know. Can't be derech bishul. Nobody cooks something raw and then eats it. Why is that not derech bishul? Ah, it all depends. Ah, ah, ah, that's it. So now you understand my derech bishul.

That's a whole shah. You learned Derech Bishul, right? Once again, I want to understand. Okay, I met a guy like you that walked into a store once and said, Can you give me a raw piece of meat? That's what I like. I like raw piece of meat. Like you too. Okay, relax. The point being here, it's not derech bishul when it's not mevushal, right? Derech bishul — bishul are two different stories. How much I cooked it and how I cooked it are... Ah, that's what I want to show you. You have to see what derech bishul means. If derech bishul means I cooked it normally, or derech bishul means it has to be a way of cooking. It has to be a way. The ways — to me, those both of them sound the same. Yeah, it does. The way is derech. That's what derech means, the way. Okay, if you learn derech bishul means in the Tosefta, it has to come to... Oh, right. If you learn it's a Tosefta, then fine. Fine. I hear, I hear. Oh, see, do here now. Now it's good. The first time Rebbe said it, he said derech and the way. Just showing. The fact that there's a sugya of maicha midoraisa needs to be with the sugya of — and you have to know maicha midoraisa is right here. All the Acharonim are busy with it right over here. Continue. Now, this is only for the Ashkenazim among us. If you're Sefardi, you don't have to learn the Rama. Go ahead. What does the Rama say? Go ahead. What does the Rama say? One more. Come on, fast. Let's go. Kol basar bachalav she'eino asur min haTorah, mutar b'hana'ah. Kol basar bachalav she'eino asur min haTorah. What? What? What? Basar bachalav that's not asur min haTorah. Mashma k'tzas, b'emes yesh lo shem basar bachalav. A little bit he calls any basar bachalav, since it's only midrabbanan. Is it basar b'chalav? Tell me, on the derabbanans, is really chal on a shem basar b'chalav? It's true, it's basar, or it's not even basar b'chalav. How else would he write it? What would Rabbi write? I don't care how he writes it. That's not my problem. My problem is not how could write it. I could write. You want to know? Kol. What's the lashon over here? Kol basar b'chalav. Kol basar, she'asar mipnei basar b'chalav, rak midrabbanan. But that's already extending and stretching for... Tell me something, are we talking about tigun and tzli, or are we talking about chicken here? I would say we're dealing with kavush and melicha, and not talking about chicken. It's a shaila. It's a shaila. It's a shaila. Kol basar b'chalav. If Rebbe wants to be medayek in the word basar, then we could learn it up as a din of kavush. If we're not going to nudge the word basar, then we could throw chicken in there also. That's right, so we shouldn't learn that. It's not good to talk about it. Good, so have a nice day. Let's continue with this tomorrow, im yirtzeh Hashem. I want to know, is chicken and milk called basar b'chalav, or it's not even called basar b'chalav? Is the reason why it's mutar asur b'hana'ah because derabbanan didn't go so far, or because it doesn't have the din of basar b'chalav? Okay, Mitch, you will continue. So far I'm reading with you. You guys are reading. Okay.