Nosen Taam Lifgam in Keilim: Why Permitted Food Can Still Require Kashering

Transcript

Let's see how much money these things really cost. Let's see, he charges a dollar fifty a day. Do you have any idea how much money he brings every single day? Every day. Thirty, forty damages. Thirty damages. It's about a hundred dollars a day. Okay, go ahead. So Nissan is going to say the shiur today. I'm on vacation. Okay. Let's see how Nissan teaches here. Joseph, you willing to go to his shiur, Joseph? I'm already joined. So let's go. He's Jews for Nissan. Go ahead. Go. No, let's go. Kuf gimmel, se'if beis. The Rama. So there's two ways how we could deal with this. The Rama, just right away, excuse it offhand, because Sephardim don't need the Rama. That's one way we could do it. Let's see what those Ashkenazim want from us. Let's see. Okay, so yesh omrim. Yeah? Should we do Rama? Why not? Good idea. ... האיסור לפגם, והמאכל מותר; מקום מקום הגדרה אסורה. Oh, so simply, what is it? Nice a taam of gam is for the food and not for the cake. Pretty easy, right? Tremendous chumrah. How can you have one issur, one mutar? Great question, huh? So let's see what the sheet—let's see what it says on the sheet. Yesh omrim. ... דוקא כשהביאו בלשון יש אומרים. Everything is yesh omrim. Does nobody has an opinion about things? Everything is yesh omrim around here? I don't know, it's interesting. Yeish... Oh, oh, that's the reason. Before we get to the reason, yeish omrim. There's some that say that, listen, when it comes to the keli, we ain't going there. We're not going to give the nicein taam lifgam. All right. So, doik shevi'u belashon yeish omrim. So does that mean he feels that way l'choira, if he brought it? Otherwise he wouldn't be interested in it. I don't know, it's interesting. Okay. He doesn't know. I am gros, seif katan ches. I'm just reading, so I'm just very, very... That's a gezeirah, and the story. And that's why I bring on the sheet, no? Shema shma. That's a gezeirah. Mishtamesh b'noisen taam lifgam. Maybe it's beis; you only need one of them, right? Shema mishtamesh b'noisen... Okay, b'noisen taam lifgam. Good, next. U'lefizeh, v'noisein... v'nifgam mi'ikara, ela mutar gam ha'keilim. Oh, so let's talk about if it's nifgam mi'ikara. Right? It's not that you put it in and it was— that it was pogem, but it was nifgam mi'ikara. Maybe it should be mutar. Why? It's only a gezeirah in the first place, that maybe you'll use a nicein taam lifgam, you'll use a nicein taam l'shevach, right? So if the thing is nifgam mi'ikara, you're using something that's nifgam. What? No, he's saying like this: and since he might come and use a shevach thing, which will be aser, so we tell you that even the nicein taam lifgam for the keli is aser. So what happens if I use a pagum thing? I'm taking a nicein taam, yeah, really lifgam. Not that it's pogem the taaroves. It started off as a pogim. That too? You want to go that far and say there too it's aser? Asking on the keli. For the keli, if it's pogim, it's a problem. Why? Because I might use a shevach. What about if it's nifgam? It's also a gezeirah, maybe I might come to use a shevach? Well, that's already a little too far-fetched. I use a shevach that will pogim, that's where the gezeirah is, because you might come to use a shevach that's not pogim. But do I go one step further and say that if I use a nifgam, also a problem because I might use a shevach? The case is a shevach that's pogim, the ta'aroves. What happens if it's a nifgam? That's really two steps, right? So where do we go? Shadilma, go ahead, Rak. What's the question? The question is on the Rama, or to ask questions? Ask halachah l'maaseh. According to the Gra, that this is all about a gezeirah, did he mean in this case too? Is it in the pogim story, or it's— If I start off with a davar ha-nifgam, will that aser the keli too? Shadilma, raka she-nifgam k'shehusam ba-ta'aroves.

Usually. ... Then Yud-Beis. And what's the reason for this? Because, you know, it's like, right? A gezeirah is a gezeirah. These two are—they say it's gezeirah. No, and they say not, because gezeirah, but not so far-fetched, right? So in this case they allow. They allow, right? Miu kasha. Teis. Maybe not. Maybe we do say gezeirah. Oh, look who's here. Just in time. Sorry. All right, so you want to stop it? So this gezeirah the Gaon speaks about is a major chiddush. Every time it's always a gezeirah shema you might use daisan tam l'shevach, so everything—so, you know, don't be matir noisen taam l'gam, because it might be noisen taam l'shevach. The whole thing does—something's not—okay. U'lefi zeh, the nivgam me'ikara. According to this, if something is not that you put it in, it's pogem, but it's a nivgam originally, maybe that should be mutar, right? Because maybe when on a pogem that started off from a shevach, inside the food it was pogem, there's a gezeirah maybe, you know. It started as a nivgam, that also is part of the gezeirah? Something like glycerin, maybe, where it doesn't have anything. No, something which is not nivgam. The real story of nivgam is that this, for example, you put milk into wine—I don't know—or wine into meat. The Noda B'Yehuda gives examples like this, where just the thing is good, but now it's no good. That's pogem, right? Remember we said there's a nivgam and a pogem, right? Yeah, something that makes—so if you have a noisen taam l'gam that it's pogem, we have a gezeirah on the keli. Is that even when it's nivgam me'ikara, there's also such a gezeirah? If I took a nifgam and I put it in, is that also that the food is good but the keilim will be asur? Do we take it that step further? So, v'chein מצד ... זב, סברא ד... that we don't do it. I mean, it's too far of a gezeirah, right? Meaning it's, okay. The only thing is, v'chein paska chachamim. Go ahead, keep on reading. Miu kasha. U'legazrinan b'chol makom. I don't know, if you want to say keilim, maybe you make the gezeirah all the time, yeah? Af kodem ha'ta roves. V'yesh l'ayin, v'chein באמת פסק. V'ha... Isur v'heter. V'huva b'Sifsei Daas, se'if katan... Yud alef, siman pei alef, ma shekasav. But that's what it says. V'yesh l'ayin, yeah, b'ma cholkin. This Rama is not made up in the Gemara that we could start saying till how far they made the gezeirah. So who decided, yeah, this we will be, this we won't be gozer? So who's the shomrim to begin with? Which one? The Rama. Read it, go ahead. Yesh omrim. The Gaon brings it, yeah. Does it say, it says it's a Gemara. It seems like the Gaon is telling his own sevara. He's guessing. It's pshat where it's coming from. It's coming from a Gemara, but it's based on the Gemara, but it's not—who's the rishon that says it? I don't know. There's no— Right, so this you have to do homework. Yesh omrim is obviously not a Gemara, because then it wouldn't be yesh omrim. And once it's a yesh omrim, I don't know who decides the rules. Of how far you take it. It's a great question. No, here we'll say, here we will. What's the difference, either a goy or a non-goy? What's the machlokes? Only a pogem and not a nifgam, and he says even on a nifgam. You hear the question? No, you don't hear the question? It's a great question. You know, if I come and I tell you that this maybe you shouldn't eat because of a gezeirah, this much will say, yeah, but this one will decide. Who's we? Who, me, the Rama? Who made up this thing? Okay, continue. V'ayin sham b'Sifsei... No. I know, but the question is, it's not chachamim, right?

I'm saying it's based on later. So if it's later, who makes the decisions? Okay. V'ayin sham, yeah, v'ayin sham b'sifsei daas, she'im haya nifgam l'gamri. So when it's taga pagum l'gamri, what's the halacha? We're gonna say that the keilim will be mutar. Who said? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe make the gezeirah even on that. Who made up all these rules? Where are the rules? Oh, it's pagum l'gamri. Oh, oh, that we're not gonna say. She'im haya nifgam l'gamri, ka'idem hataaroves, divrei hakol ein gezeirah mutar. So what's the question? Ha'im cholkin... This is daf? This is daf? I didn't bring it to you? I should have. Sif seif daas. Okay, don't look at sif katan. Okay. She'im haya nifgam l'gamri. Okay, so what's the point? Ha'im cholkin b'metzius, misvara. Take out the taf. Yeah, good. He's talking about here honey. That's the story that he gives. Honey is good, right? Honey, but there's the wings over there; they have to do siman on that. We have to go through that whole sif seif daas. Kids, the bottom line, the sif seif daas, this nekudah. So just get to the point, all right? The Rama, what's the story on a good that's pagum, on a pagum that's pagum, on a l'gamri nifgam? Because remember, the pagum tzas. So remember, there's three things. There's pagim, there's pagim tzas, there's nifgam ktsas, and nifgam l'gamrei, right? So how far is this from? If I took a rotten thing and used the keli, is that the new thing now? You hear the question? Yeah. Rama says, keli maaser. Could you tell me the story of keli maaser? Could you tell me what it is? Is nifgam? Is it pagim? Is it really nifgam l'gamrei when you... Okay, continue. V'lefi zeh... The chora, it's the second one. I took it and I made nice tam l'gam, and the thing is now the keli is asur, right? Right. Now I went and I took the food from that keli, I cooked something, and then I went and I put it into another pot. Is it going to make that pot asur? That's right. Good rice, and I cooked it in a pot that became asur because of nosein taam lifgam. Does the Rama hold it goes one step further to the next keli? Where I did it purposely or like... Whatever I did, he cooked rice inside this pot. Now he puts it in another pot. Does that pot become a problem now? Go ahead. No, you don't like the question? It's a great question. I mean, this is it. You're talking about the first nosein taam lifgam. The food is kosher, the keli becomes a problem. So the keli now, you're cooking it regular rice. And you put it into another pot. Does that pot now have a problem? I mean, how far we take it? So I would say, of course not, right? It's definitely two steps away. And what's the answer? Tzarich iyun. Ha'im gazru gam b'zeh? Continue, me'Rama, mashma. Oh. Tami, could you see in the Rama where that it's what? It's asur even after meislei, right? It's asur. Why would it be asur? Nice tam of kli doesn't fall away. That's already afterwards, right? Mikol makom, hakirah asurah, v'pigul ba'uba, achar kach toch meitah. That's something else. That's in balua from something else, which is not meislei. But the story is still the pot. You have to kasher. What do you mean? What about after? He brings the Yad Yehuda, פירוש הכתוב, סימן ז', בשם הסמ״ע. The kasha: im gam zeh gezeirah, is this also chelek of a gezeirah, that there's no nice tam of gam on a keli period? I mean, it's mutar. It's nice, it's after 24 hours. The keli is still asur; you need to kasher the keli now. Tami, when a pot becomes treif, right, we have to kasher after 24 hours, right?

Even on a nice tam lefgam, yeah, he says, yeah, we have to do that. Fine. I have pischei teshuva. This you can read inside. Pischei teshuva. Not here. Read inside the Pischei Teshuva. Yeah. Pischei teshuva is ... Yeah? We're looking for, not ... Not ... I chose on ... chelek yoreh siman lamed aleph, yayin shebishlu bkli basar vein yomo. Ah, so now the yayin, the meat, yeah. ... basar bchalav. Wow. So what is that? That's a spoon, spoon milchigs to a fleishig pot. But it's a nice tam lefgam because of the wine and the stuff. It's horrible, the milk. It's not a good mixture, okay? So it's still asur. The keli to the keli. ... basar bchalav ... af shezeh ... basar chalav byayin ... Solama chalav btzeirei. Bmakom keivan shechalav atzmo eino oser hayayin ela mitam shenitarev imo basar vhavei basar bchalav, im ken harei habasar pogen. ... Keli to keli. Everything's — the spoon is asur. How much do you want to take this? Yeah, this means that this pot became pagum. This is pagum. It's a fleishig pot, became pagum. And now I dipped the dairy spoon in it. So the pot doesn't change now because of that. Who cares? And then I took a spoon and I put it in. So this spoon now becomes pasul. Keli to keli. See what's going on here? It's a meat pot that you put in a dairy. It's kosher. The spoon that you mix the food becomes treif now because of the pot. Even if it's a meaty spoon in a meaty pot. It's a meat thing, wine, noisen taam of gam. It's like a meaty spoon. I gotta take a dairy spoon. Dairy spoon. A spoon now, we don't say noisen taam of gam on the spoons. Go ahead. Yeah, good? All right. ... No, you missed something. The piskei ... kasher in ... Right, you can't cook to say the pot sixty against that. You can't say it, right? No. Now, if ... noisen taam of gam ... if gam b'zeh ... the food is noisen taam of gam and the pot is noisen taam of gam. No. ... gam shibalah ... we say that the sixty won't help. What's the case here? Not taam shibalah? That you have noisen taam of gam food. So what's the yad to the pot? The pot becomes aser. What happens if the pot is sixty compared to the issur shebala? What if, one more time, what if the pot is ... Could you cook in a treifa pot thinking, oh, it's 60 bigger than the pot more than the food? No. What about by nosein taam lifgam? That the pot is aser. The food is nosein taam lifgam? The pot is 60 times the size of whatever the food that's in there. What's the halacha if it would be a treifa, if it would be a real regular taroves? It's aser, right? Yeah. How about nosein taam lifgam where the food is kosher, and the pot is— now becomes a nosein taam lifgam isur. Do we say, you know what, but there is 60 compared to it, so then it's going to— 60, what, 60, the food versus the pot? The pot is 60 times more than the food. But if the pot is the problem, the pot is the problem. Because not on a regular treif, on a regular treif you have such a story. But if it's only nosein taam lifgam, maybe the pot— still has like some kosher taste in it that would outweigh the— If you have food which is batel b'shishim, right? Okay. So what's the halacha? The halacha is that it's mutar, right? But let's say it's not batel b'shishim, but the pot is shishim. The pot is shishim. What's the halacha? Too bad, we don't care about the pot is shishim, right?

The whole pot becomes aser, correct? Yes or no? Yeah. Here it's a nice and taam l'gam, it's anyway mutar. But we say, no, no, the keilim will remain aser. What happens if the keilim is more than sixty? Is it still aser, the keilim, because they're a nice and taam l'gam? You don't like this shaila. Great shaila. He doesn't understand the shaila. I don't understand it. The pot is more. The pot is the problem. I don't understand. When a pot is sixty times more than the treif food, we don't care; it's aser. The pot still becomes aser, right? Right, right. You're taking nice and taam l'gam food and putting it in a kosher pot? Nice and taam l'gam food is koshering. But we say it ruins the pot. But we say it ruins the pot, even if it's sixty compared to this mixture? At least that we could say bitul; you'll say no, because we don't say by pots. There's no entities, right? L'choira that's what you say. So let's see. U'muchach... Okay, so the truth is, u'muchach, l'choira you have to say that once the pots are aser, pots are aser, right? Gezeirah goes. But tzarich biur lama, but the Taz says a chiddush: mi'u ayin Taz. Vai treif. We don't say the part sixty. By noisn tam lifgam, we'll say the part sixty. Yeah. Wow, it's a huge task. It's a whole story here, the Rashba. Wow, it's a huge task. Familiar? Familiar? I know what I'm talking about. Right, to make a long story short, it's not from the Gemara. How far are we taking this business? He's dealing with something else here, but everybody wants to use this sevara. It's the same thing, and he wants to say a chiddush. Noisn taam lifgam, you hear? The food is mutar. Normally, on a regular noisn taam lishvach, shishim of sixty of the... But here it will work, he says. Why? How much do you want to—how far do you want to go with this? So the answer is, I don't know the answer. The only pshat I could come and say is, the rule was, noisen taam lifgam, not said by keilim. That's it. That's the only way. Really? Where do we learn that from keilim? Midyan, no? Clean Midyan? Isn't lager, isn't based on lager? No, we know noisen taam l'24 hours, that's a different sugya. But the reason is lager, right? And therefore, lifgam it's mutar. We started with this, no? Yeah, yeah, I remember the sugya in the... So it comes out that for some reason it's still not said by keilim. That's how you have to read the Rambam. What's the pshat? So I'm thinking the pshat's like this. I didn't bring it here, huh? Maybe the pshat's like this. The food is ruined, you have to throw it out. So noisen taam lifgam is a heter. Keili, just wait. The keili kashered. Why? We're not going to say the heter of noisen taam lifgam. The gezeirah...

I'm not b'makpid the tip throughout the food. That's the pshat. You know what I want to tie in? The gezeirah was enough to say, go kasher the keli. But the gezeirah was not enough to say, now you're throughout the food that you just cooked. That's what I hold. I hold it's a rule across the board: keilim, we're not going to use the heter. That's the word. We don't use the heter, nice and simple. Good? Gishmak? Sir, gishmak? Ah, you'll ask me, what's the pshat in the Taz that sixty will be mevatel? I thought by keilim we don't say it. Once there's sixty, you can't say the keli is a nice—has in it. It's finished. It's not in the keli. You can't make a gezeirah. That's the pshat. Oh, kivanu la'emes. Beautiful, huh? No. Why didn't I write it? Because I fell asleep by this point. I did, I fell asleep. I couldn't take it. But you hear what I want? So we'll write it. I'm going to write it. Give me a few minutes, I'm going to write it. But you hear what we're trying to say? Why is the sixty, and the teretz is because then the keli is not a nice and tam lifgam; it doesn't have it. But once it's a nice and tam lifgam keli, keli is osur and food will always be. Okay. Do we follow this, rabosai? Go ahead. And the answer is what I just told. Okay. So let's go. I want to see this Aruch HaShulchan inside. Remember it, but I never saw it, you know, this—I haven't seen it this time. So go ahead, bring me the Aruch HaShulchan and let's see. And sefarim doesn't make a difference. Ah, the difference. No, however, kaf hachaim. Yeah, me, I... אין הלכה לא בגלל שמחמיר, אלא בגלל ש... ערך השולחן, ... לא... They argue on what? On the Rama. I might be wrong with this. I remember the Aruch... and the Rama. Could be I'm wrong. I could be wrong. ... Yeah. כתב הרמא, ... No, not it. Maybe I'm wrong. ... Yeah. כתב הרמא, רבינו הרמא, יש אומרים דאף על גב דאיסור ... מותר, מקום מקום ... אסורה. ... אבל אם ... ... לא נאסר ... וכן בדבר שאין לו ... כלל, כגון היורש ... לא נאסר היורש בכל כיוצא בזה. This, he brings the name of... עד כאן. Yeah. ... Oh, Shema, this, this thing, right? Yeah. Next one. ... רבינו הרמא, וכאילו השמיט טעם הראשון. I told you, I remember this. Yeah? Okay, good. Okay, you're gonna learn this Aruch HaShulchan? No. Okay, so take out the Kaf HaChaim, and I want to show you something interesting. I think so. He says, ... right? What happened to ...? That's what I want to show you. Kaf Ha... ... Vishu... ... אבל דעת המנחת יצחק על התורה...

What's his reason not to pasken? You got to do all this long Aruch HaShulchan to know this whole thing? I taught you what to read here, okay? And the bottom line is, not because the Mechaber doesn't bring it, but because they're arguing directly on the Rema, therefore you're not gores the Rema. So you see that they take the Rema seriously a little bit, all right? Okay, Baruch Hashem l'olam. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You see from here that it's not as simple. We don't care about the Rema. That's really what—I do the reading, that's what I want. Okay, what do you want me to not remind me? I don't know what's going on. You know what? Let's do some cleanup here. Two minutes of cleanup.