Bishul Akum: Ne’echal Chai, Shulchan Melachim, and What Counts as Cooking

Transcript

Okay, Iain, ... sifkatan aleph. Okay, tell me what I want with that paragraph. What do I want with that paragraph? Yeah? I want the Gemara. What do I want with that Gemara? The Gemara says, right, ... daf lamed ches, and there's two. One is it has to be olah al shulchan melachim; if not, it's okay. The other one has to be what? If it's not nechel chai. Those are the two conditions. Now, do we use both of the opinions? It's two separate opinions. And the answer is, we pasken like both of them. Both conditions are necessary, which means bishul akum is only asur if it's not something which is nechel chai, because if it's nechel chai, who cares that you cooked it? You cooked the big deal. And the second thing is, if it's not olah al shulchan melachim. And what does he say, the lashon? What's the lashon of the Beragayla? Paskinan, we pasken? ... Okay, so this is both. If it's not olah al shulchan melachim, and B, if it's not, what do you call it, nechel chai. Okay, next one, next mareh makom. So this is really the Gemara is beautiful. Beragayla gives you right away the Gemara. Go ahead, yeah. That's really the word of the Gemara, l'lafuf bo es hapat. So how did the Shulchan Aruch write what? Parperet. A certain. Big problem, big problem. The Gemara says that it has to be olah al shulchan melachim l'lafuf bo es hapat, which means they use it. With bread. We're not sure yet, because the Pri Chadash, the Pri Chadash is discussing that. So what is the Pri Chadash saying? Go ahead. So go ahead, read me the Pri Chadash. What is the Pri Chadash? So first we'll start with the Rambam. Iyun Rambam, macholos asuros. Read the Rambam. Oh. Oh. And he says it's a laf b'eisa pas. Chayra, a lav is by a pas is important, and if it's not something, a lav is by a pat, there's no bitul. The Tur and the Shulchan Aruch say, Oy, parperet, it could be a dessert. Tell me, your dessert is bread, has nothing to do with bread. So that's the big question. How did the Rambam and how did the Tur and Shulchan Aruch... So there's a very big, long Pri Chadash. What does the Pri Chadash explain? Yeah, because there's a lot of information in that seif katan gimel Pri Chadash. Go ahead. I know, that's a lot of information, those three. How much stuff we got out of those three lines? Go ahead, Nu. So we're going to discuss that soon. But whatever it is, the first thing you have to realize is laf b'eisa pat. What do you do with pat? So what does the Pri Chadash say? Go ahead, read, Nu. That's nothing. I don't want that. That's not the wrong one. How could it be gimel? Here's what the Rambam's shitah is, he's all busy with the Rambam. Maybe it's daled then? Does it make sense it's daled? Is that possible? He wants to say, lafed bais hapas in the Rambam is even though I only took in for something which is lafed bais hapat, like a strawberry jelly, since it's used lafed bais hapat, so this is called a ... She says, sit down for jelly. Let's say sit down for jelly. I mean, okay, it's not ... it's not ... It is ... it's twenty pages long, this ... You did it in the wrong ... you did it ... Yeah. That could do. You probably did kuf yud-beis with the ... Okay. All right, so let me explain to you that there is so much here. One, two, and of course it's gimmel. Gimmel, the most famous ... one of the most famous ... is gimmel. The bottom line is that that long ... wants to say a tremendous chiddush, and that is, take it with you. You're going to have to know this ... You need to know this ... You have to know everywhere in that ... Okay. The point being that in the Rambam, lafed bais hapat, he wants to say that it's a chiddush, not a tenai, but a chiddush, that if it's something lafed hapat, even if it's not with the bread, for example, chocolate spread.

Is there a problem with bishul akum on chocolate spread? And the answer is yes. Yeah, but what's...? Yeah, because they would put it on their bread. So if I sit down and I lick chocolate spread together with, it's a problem. It has to be what? It has to be bishul Yisrael. Okay. Ayin Shach, go ahead. Right, ayin Shach, go ahead. Oh, so who wants to read the Shach inside? Go ahead. Oh. Okay. Which is not like the Ran, right? So there's a machlokes. So what are they arguing? What's the ma'aseh of the machlokes? Ah, so what does that mean? That's really what I really want. I want to be busy with this a little bit, if you don't mind. What...? Nechel chai, right? A ma'aseh dik cook it. And the teretz is... So can I tell you the real truth? Can I tell you the real truth? There's two ways to learn this sugya. There's one way to learn this sugya, it's all about chasnus, yechasnus. Will this bring you to cha...? It won't bring you to chasnus. You could play with that. Or chachamim asru bishul. The question is what's included in bishul. That's not called bishul. So can I tell you the real truth? There's two ways to learn this sugya. There's one way to learn this sugya, it's all about chasnus, yechasnus. Will this bring you to cha...? It won't bring you to chasnus. You could play with that. Or chachamim asru bishul. The question is what's included in bishul. That's not called bishul. So there, it's for this man d'amar who's arguing that it has to be nishtaneh. Correct. Bishul means I created something. Bishul means I did something. That's pashtus, the machlokes, and you'll see how it's relevant in many different cases. It's relevant in many different cases. Yeah, but because I didn't change it. It's not called bishul. You have to know what the word bishul really means. Bishul means an act of bishul, or bishul is bishalti hadavar. I cooked it. I changed it. There was a change in what it is. Now let's see: ayin shach, se'if katan beis, debnei me'ayin asurin, v'loi palig Rabbanan. Now what is that all about? The Gemara says clearly that only sheepos will eat the bnei me'ayin. It's actually like frankfurters. It's actually cheap food, okay? L'maaseh it's from a beheima, and a beheima is oylah shel melachim. So the question is, how do we look at the bnei me'ayin? All right? So the Shach says, loi palig Rabbanan, which is not really the lashon of the Shach, but the Pri Chadash brings that lashon. All right, the Pri Toar, Pri Chadash, he brings the Shach, brings loi palig. I don't remember the lashon, loi palig in the Shach. I added that because it's relevant. Could be the pshat is, once they said meat, anything that's in the meat, it's meat. It's the words they use, loi palig. The words that Acharonim use is loi palig. What do you mean, atu? That it might come to? No. Loi palig means because once they said meat, then the meat. So loi palig. See, that's what I'm saying. I don't think it's the same thing. You see, it's a whole different vort. What they talk about is kol sheb'minoi is not the same thing as loi palig. That's really what I believe strongly. It's because the chachamim assered meat and everything that's in the meat. Here's the other way around. They didn't asser potatoes. It's not the same sogya. I hope people that shtel tzu this sugya are making a very big mistake. It's not the sugya. You'll see the difference. The difference, like palug is, I said meat is aser. So therefore everything... The Gemara says that it's natel chai. Yeah. So the truth is, the Gemara talks, the Gemara talks, bechochma. They used to have these meats that you were able to eat raw. The Gemara talks about it. They used to have raw. The bottom line, the bottom line is, in the lei palug, it won't help you for the potatoes and the potato chips. It won't help. Because what do they say, a potato is zayla shulchan melachim. What about potato chips? Kol shebemino. It's not the same thing as lei palug. I'll soon show you more. It's a prita. You look clearly, the Pri Toar, the Pri Chadash, they all use the word lei palug, rabba, in this sugya. Didn't you just say also it has to be eaten with bread, potato chips cannot be eaten with bread? I didn't say that. I said even if it's cheap, if you learn it has to be eaten with bread.

Then anach nami, all these things don't count. The problem is the Shulchan Aruch says, paperes, even in a dessert. We don't need eating. Chiddush is something that's eaten with bread, even if it's not עולה על שולחן מלכים, it's called an עולה על שולחן מלכים. That's a big— because if the king will smear it on his bread, it becomes a problem, the thing itself. Okay, let's continue. I: פרי חדש, סעיף קטן ב'. אפילו בשר כחוש, שאינו עולה על שולחן מלכים. Give me the best example. I pasken this all the time. No? Cold cuts. Cold cuts. I hold this is the case of cold cuts. They're cooked. They're cooked, so l'shitasi you have bishul akum on it. I'm asking a pashut case. What? It's not עולה, but it says בשר, like poultry. Halacha l'maaseh, if you ask me halacha l'maaseh, whole cold cuts have a problem. They do. So, listen to me carefully, listen to me carefully. My job right now is to be Rosh Yeshiva, and that is I teach you. So work on it. What do you want from my life? I'm telling you pashut zach. I'm telling you the loi palug of the basar, and I'm telling you the kachush of the basar. This is basar kachush. What is a cold cut? Cheap meat. Cheap, cheap meat. Go ahead, yeah. Continue. So we go after what? Rov ha'olam. Yeah, nechel chai. So you said that what? Yesterday, frankfurter, they do eat, they don't eat. What were you telling me yesterday? Edible. It's edible, but it's not derech achilah. So what's this one? Linye nechel chai, halchen achar. What does that mean? Could eat it, would eat it, should eat it, do eat it? Homework. Homework. Did you write that? Did, would, could. You know, write that down: would or could. All meat is ... the Shulchan Aruch, everything is? All meat according to... I don't know. I'm not... Rabbi Yisraeli is your chief rabbi. What do you want from my life? What's his name again? Rabbi Yisraeli. I don't... what do you want from my life? I just teach. He's too busy. You hear my question? No. Why not? I want to know, rov olam is would eat or could eat? I don't know. Could eat? I don't know. Could eat it. Yeah, but nobody would. But most people would not do it. Yes, of course, that's not nechel chai. That's what it is. I don't know. I'm asking you, do we go after could or would? It's a tremendous question. I don't see why. Hot dog. Bring me the cheating books, and if the cheating books say that, it's okay. Hot dog, hot dog. Yeah, would you open a package and eat it? Would or could? Tomorrow you could question. Why is that anymore? You could eat it. Could eat it. We've just had all meats. It's not like... it's not the healthiest. It's not... Every one of these things, you have to know the halacha. You have to. How about nishtaneh briyaso? Yeah, I want to know nishtaneh briyaso means that it changed. Now it became a whole new entity. When the shtar mebriyasa means that it became, it looks different. Something changed in it. Exactly. Rabbi, didn't you—wasn't that one of the terutz the guy was busy with, the shtar mebriyasa? I don't know, that was all the stuff that he wanted. Rabbi, aren't we more concerned that if we're going to eat the food in their domain, we're cooking it over there, we have it over here, why are we worried about our doors? These are seminar questions. I know, but I went through it in bishul. I can't go back there. Whatever it is, it's mutar. It is—we talked about it. Are those that say b'beis Yisrael it's not a problem, I can't go back there. I've done it, I've done it so many times, they're going to fire me and find somebody else to teach them. All right? So let's move on. Could you get—okay, so write me down like this, write it down. What is this? Six faces. Okay, this is one of them. He's busy with this. Kuntrus ha-sfeikos. Go ahead. So first of all, on the shtar mebriyasa, I like your example, peanuts. Could you tell the difference between—

Between roasted and not roasted peanuts, I can't. Just the color. Okay, how can you not writing down roasted peanuts? You know, because you don't like them. You don't like the question of Mishnah Berurah, you don't like it, because you don't like the whole question. What's not halacha? But you want to use it as a tziruf. I didn't. I mean, you don't like the guy that's wrote this. Maybe you don't like the whole psak. Maybe I'm saying, I don't mean it personally. You don't like the whole question. I mean, is this a tziruf? Could you use the Mishnah Berurah as one of the... I don't know, maybe. How about you, Rabbi? ... sweetheart, everybody please stand up for my friend. Okay, okay, okay, continue. Go ahead. Okay, so question number one. Okay, he says he doesn't like it, we don't pasken like this. Okay. How about b'nei me'ayin asur, lo palig Rabbanan. Okay. How about pri chadash, basar kachash, nechel chai, cooked. Kemeinu patriot, what is that? Mushrooms. Interesting. Continue. So it's a machlokes, asur... what's about the tkufes? What are they? They had different menus, I don't know. You know what I think? Cuisine changed. That's how you learn this. How about learning something else? You know, mushrooms, it all depends how they're cooked. You could cook them cheap, and you know what they are? Junk. It's junk food. If you cook them with a certain sauce... Oh, I've gotten hungry a long time ago. You have no idea how hungry I am. You only know how hungry I am today. Yeah. Do you have a donut in your pool? No, I don't. No, I mean the fake donut. Yeah, the rubber ducky. You have a pink one? Stole from your daughter. Stole it from your daughter? Does it beep? Does it squeak when you make them? Okay, okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Next, yeah. Ayin Rambam. Ayin Rambam, machalos asuros. Oh, he gives me cases. Ya'ayin, it's nechel chai. Yeah, but how did I get to that wine? I don't understand. What? I mean nechel chai because you eat grapes raw. It's cooked because you could only eat the grape. What? Something. Pasteurized, something. I'm just asking. This yayin was nechel chai because you could eat a grape. How about milk? Everything is because you could have eaten it raw. Yeah. Even though you went and you made a whole new thing out of it, made cheese out of it, right? I guess, right? That's the pshat. Since its original form could be nechel chai. All right. Ayin Magen Avraham. U'mishtaberes sivkan yaleh, go ahead, what? Im eino nechal chai, rak im machol im acher. What is that, what did I write? The what? Aleph to ayin. Yeah. Here it means if ... be with, right? No, ma, im, if. If? Yeah, if. Eino nechal chai, rak im— oh, this one, the second one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead. So what's the second? I'll fix it. Yeah, okay, go ahead. What's im? Yeah, the what? With, with. So what's the middah? Yeah, what's the middah? It's nechal chai, but together with something. It would invite somebody in for it. Something you would or could. Something you would, huh? Yeah, so let me ask you a question. Like celery. People eat celery plain. Do people eat things with their— With? What do you mean? Raisins, let's say. Yeah, but everybody eats raisins separately too, no? Give me an example. Try and think of an example of this Magen Avraham. What would be a story, eino nechal chai, rak im acher? What would be a good example? Garlic. I like that. Garlic. Garlic.

That's a good question. Sushi, right? Why? Because the thing is only nechel chai, but you wouldn't sit down and eat the fish raw. True. But you would eat it with salt on it. Good, good, good. I like it, I like it, I like it, I like it. How come nobody talks about it? I never saw one person talk about this Magen Avraham. They bring this Magen Avraham. Where is this? Okay, he brings about this im acherim, the sushi. All right, good, this is what I want. No, but that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted. I want to know things that are nechel, right? Im eino nechel chai rak im machol im acheirim. Now what would be the she'eilah? What would be the nidon? It's not considered chashuv enough; it's only eaten with other things. It's not chashuv? That's the story? Yeah, you wouldn't invite somebody for that, just that alone. Yeah, but if it's nechel im dvarim acheirim... Okay, sushi is a chashuv thing, no? Yeah, but when they make the sushi, they don't make it all in one shot. They make each thing separate. They cook each thing separate. You might need a mikuyar on that cooking as well, by sushi. Okay, that's what I really... I know it's like this. Let's say it's chashuv. What do we care about, the rice or the fish over here? I'm saying, the rice has to be bishul Yisroel. Yeah, you don't think so? The rice they use, it was never... They use a very short-grain rice that nobody... You can't make anything but sushi. Oh, wow. Really? Sushi rice, yeah. No, it's very... because they put sugar in it. Very low-grade rice that they use for sushi. Where you, you, you, you studied just so, obviously, yeah? ... Bishul Yisrael. The stores are also; they're not ... But you cook the fish, you cook the fish separately. The fish alone, you wouldn't be— Right. L'maaseh together, you would. It's assur to eat fish raw by itself without any lemon, any soy sauce, or any salt on it. You cannot go to a tuna, slice the tuna. So let me talk to me a second. So why is it if I do it separately, then it wouldn't be a problem, because I did it separately? I'm cooking it to make the sushi, though. Before you eat it, put the drops of soy sauce. No, that's halacha. Yeah, but the story is that I cooked it. You see, it's not nechel chai. Why are you cooking it? Should you dine it as if it's all together? It's not nechel chai only with other things, right? So the fish you want to ta'ina— But this min is not a chashuv. What's the difference l'gabei the maaseh and the bishul? Does nechel chai change the bishul? I mean, what is the Mishnah? I'm going to— Rambam Mishneh Berurah says the difference. But right now it's not nechel chai; you cooked it. I don't understand how that works. The Mishnah is saying is that since it's nechel chai only with other foods, so meileh you don't have a problem of bishul akum. L'choira, right? It comes out ... So that's what I want— that's what's bothering me. Something's bothering me in this Magen Avraham. Okay, so you print it out, because this is really the sugya. I need to know pshat in that Mishnah. Read it to me one more time. Read it to me fast one more time. Let's go, read, read. Right? Yes, it's a mechudash. Since l'maaseh I eat it with something else, so then it comes out, the fish should be mutar. It's a mechudash. I don't know what to do with this Mishnah Berurah. Okay, let's continue. Ayin sham, yeah, go ahead. B'shulchan Aruch she'asur, afilu b'Beis Yisrael. Continue, yeah. Oh, so what do you... He would allow it in Beis Yisrael. Go ahead, go ahead. Good, tzaddik, very good. He would allow it in Beis Yisrael, well. So what's the shaila? I guess the shaila is, it's just you're not straight chasis. You don't have a problem of chasis, or it's not shechiyanu.

Maybe it's a lomdushe vort. It's not called bishul akum when it's b'beis Yisroel, something like that. It's in my house, it's something. It's not called bishul akum. Huh? Something. You don't like it? No, no, see, what's so hard about it? It's a good sevara. Remember רבי yesterday? He said, I would speak about garmi, it'd be a whole week. If I were walking, let's speak about it, it'd be two weeks. It's a cute line. Garmi, garmi, garmi. Okay, let's go weiter. I think it was... that's what he was saying. I think so. That's what he meant to say. He meant to say, I would say it simply because I talk simple, and he would say a whole shiur on it, a whole... Nobody, he said Rabbi would speak for two weeks about it. I know, that's what he meant. Rabbi had more chomer on it. No, what he meant to say was, you know, the lomdus, the yeshivish and the yesodis and the chakiras, you know, he says, okay, yes, no, goodbye, good luck. Okay, let's go. Ayin shach. Ayin shach. I just... okay, I'll ask you afterwards. Ayin shach, siman kuf nun beis, se'if katan beis: adam chashuv yachmir af b'nechal chai. Wait. How about the other way around, right? Adam chashuv yachmir af b'nechal chai. Should an adam chashuv be machmir af b'eino olah al shulchan melachim? He should? Don't say it. Where do you have that? Why not? I don't know. Why is one more than the other? I don't know. I don't know. You know what I'm tiny? Nechel chai, the pshat is there's no bishul here whatsoever. And that's why the Aruch HaShulchan is becholek on it. If a person eats this raw and they cook it, he should still not eat it, even if you're a... Right, but could be the pshat is because there, the pshat is when it's nechel chai, there was a ma'aseh bishul here. Okay. And the Pri Chadash is tiny it's even not even a ma'aseh bishul, so it's not to be machmir. It's like being machmir wearing tzitzis and not tzitzis. ... and I cook it, so there the pshat is the whole yesod of the gezeirah doesn't apply. But when it's nechel chai, it still applies? By nechel chai, it's a lomdus that it's not, is bishul, not bishul. So you can learn that it still is bishul. The nechel. When it's not ... it's ... part of takanah. That's what I want. Exactly. That what I just said? Let me hear, what? ... That's what I'm telling you. That's what I'm learning. I did do, because that's a shailah of, did I do or didn't I do? It wasn't a... it's not ... the takanah doesn't start. Okay, continue, yeah. ... just like by Shabbos. So what's the yesod? Because halachically it's not called bishul. You don't have the ... That's the official... I need taam al tviasa. Mim kan din l'ma'inyan Shabbos l'kan. That's what he wants to say. B'Shabbos, davar she'eino ... klal, ... ma she'ein kein over here. He says clearly. V'atu kolel inyan yisuv, v'hete mikri bishul? It's not called bishul. All this is not called bishul. That's the bishul. Right there. That's where I got this, because I knew this ... The ... is tinying it's not about the ma'aseh bishul. It cooked. It cooked in the cliché. It was cooked. Ma'aseh bishul, but not mevushal. It's the same sugya of nechel chai. It has nothing. You did the ma'aseh bishul, but you aren't mevashel. That's the nafka mina. You did the ma'aseh bishul. In Shabbos it's about what? The ma'aseh. In bishul akum, what is it? You created something. You changed something. You created something. So maybe, maybe, maybe, if you go and you have a, right, if you cook something, right, you cook something, that it's nechel chai al yedei davar acher. It's nechel chai al yedei davar acher, but you changed something. K'meinu patriot.

You made a cuisine out of it. That's what I want. Did you hear what I just said? When I create something new, you're right. But if I don't create something new, then we could have the nechal chaysu. Did you understand what I said? Do you understood it? Not so much. At least I see you're not so good today. Not good mood. You're not in a good mood. Not good. Tired. Beautiful vort. I'm ready to get chiddush. We're gonna go through the sugya. I'm gonna be busy with it for a while, but okay. Tomer, could you just repeat to them one more time what we just said? Give them the yesod. Kemeino pat Yisroel is an eye-opener. The night of Yehuda is an eye-opener. It's not about the act of cooking, and it's also by kemeino pat Yisroel, it might be a sugya that I created something new. I took it, I made a dish out of it. I made a dish out of it. That's right. I had to make, so I had to create a new dish. That's where bishul akum is. Oh, ma she'ein kein, oh. So this is a shayla. Ohel al shulchan melachim is the taich that the takanah was only said on something which is ohel al shulchan melachim. So if it's not ohel al shulchan, there's nothing to be machmir. Ma she'ein kein bishul, the question is, should I be machmir on something which doesn't have the mailos of gidarma bishul? It's a nechal chai, so I didn't create anything. That's where the chumra comes in. If I did a ma'aseh bishul without a creation of bishul, that's what's to be machmir. You're right. The fish is what? Only nechal chai al yedei the rice. The fish is only nechal chai al yedei the rice, okay? So what is that called? I can eat it alone, right? It's nechal chai. Ma she'ein kein if I just cook the fish. Okay. We're done. We're done. I just need to— Huh? I forgot what? No one asked.