Nosen Taam Lifgam: Cleaning a Keli, Residual Grease, and the 24-Hour Rule

Transcript

You ready? Start. All right, go ahead, read. Baruch... What kind of listens to the shiur? The basar mechalav? No, whatever. Go, gimel. That's go. He always asks me when I don't. Okay, let's go. Next. So shout out to Rabbi Boruch... Baruch, we love you. Good guy, Baruch. Tzadik. Good guy, Baruch. He's a good guy. Tzadik, tzadik, tzadik. Okay, let's go. You ready? כן. Hamechaber. Taroves... Vamechaber. What does the Mechaber say? That this whole thing with noisen taam lifgam, 24 hours, keilim, right? That's only when it's not what? Read. B'mechaber v'hu shetihei mudeches. It has to be that it's washed and there's no fat al paneha. So the question is, is it one thing? Is it two things? It has to be mudeches to the point that it's ein shuman, that's what it means? Seemingly, right? So that word seemingly is in the word mashma. Mashma, tarti: hudach ad shelo yehei shuman. Can't just give it a good rinse. It has to be rinsed, but whatever it is, no fat. You all maskim? Totally removed. I cook with fat. L'choira, the story over here is hudach, shelo yehei shuman al paneha. What's the al paneha? You cleaned it. No, it's a clean pot. What do you mean? You mean al paneha. Oh, that's what you mean? Paneha? Oh, maybe, maybe. So, clean, no fat. L'choira, tarti mashma. Means it has to be clean to the point that there's no fat. V'yesh l'ayein, if it's with soap, v'afilu mayim loy nekiyim. What happens if I washed it with not clean water? The fat is still there, but it's not so good. Well, right? It's mashma from the Mechaber it's got to be no fat. So what does it matter if the water is dirty or not? The idea is like the fat. Correct. So all I'm trying is learning here first. When I'm learning here, I'm asking, do you need the fat to be gone, or the fat can be removed also? That's all I'm asking. Okay, so this question I have here right now on the Mechaber. From the Mechaber it's mashma we want the fat gone. Right. Mashma, gone and not— What's the problem? That's the kasha of the shiur. What's wrong if it's possible? Every time I talk, they say, and I talk about stam kelim, they say, Oh, but I washed it with soap. That's right. But so seemingly then the whole halacha just dissipates. And what do you have to wash? Just wait 24 hours. No, you have to, because it can't be there. That's also applies in other basar b'chalav. That's the question. It's a very simple question. I washed it; it's not really there so much anymore. No, it has to be—there's no— Right, there's no shuman, or that there is shuman, but— Yes, I'm asking, when you wash it with dirty water, I mean it's sink water, right? Who cares if it's dirty water, if it's washed off? If I have murky water— That's what I'm saying, it's mashma you need to wash it off. And it's not enough to have it with dirty water. The mechaber just tells me it's got to be gone. Hudach, gone. What about hudach and it's ugly now? Who's going to eat that? So that's the whole discussion. I know, so I'm just being medayek. The words, simple words: hudach, clean. Not hudach and now it's not—it's not giving you taam anymore, right? When you take a pot and you wash the dishes, I hope you're not looking that the food should get taste of that, whatever that is, right? No, obviously not. So why obviously? From the Mechaber's mashma, that's not good enough. I don't understand. A person who wants to be washing the pot that everything should be gone. Let's say it's— They didn't have sponges and stuff we have today. That's right, they still had— I'm trying to— They took a quick rinse. They took a quick rinse, right. They sit and wash their hands and get clean. I washed— In Russia I used to wash dishes, there was no faucet. I know. I'm telling you. And then the other diyyuk, the truth, I didn't write it, but I want to write it. Is there a chiluk between hudach and shutaf and— I think the poskim side with it. That's all. Okay, so I'm busy with this, all right? Can I have my pen here for a second? So the first issue is—

Okay, it's good enough. The first issue is, v'yesh l'ayin im hudah b'sabon, and also yesh l'ayin, write that down, ha'im yesh chiluk bein hudach v'shatuf. Mudach and hudach. Mudach or shatuf. Stiffel. Yeah, okay, but it's really shtifel, which means I gave it a rinse. That's a very simple question. Do I need hudach, completely cleaned out, to the fact that there's no more shuman? That's the machlokes, right? Good? Anything less than that, not good. U'mashma, what else is mashma? She'im bishul v'yesh shishim al paneha, that if you did do it, it would become aser. That's the reading here, right? V'yesh l'adun. Go ahead, go ahead, continue. V'yesh l'adun. Oh, what happens if you have sixty neged the shuman? I mean, it was the other way around, im yesh shishim keneged ha'shuman, right? Batel. Ho'il d'mahavi k'be'en, v'lo amrinan levatel u'lhatir. Simple question. No shuman al paneha, completely not? Or it has to be something that's enough? What happens if it's just a tiny drop of shuman? It's a small little... The shuman we're talking about is like prohibited shuman? No, sure, that's treif for basar b'chalav. We're talking about basar b'chalav. You know, years ago, my Rebbe Reb Elsky said that there was a whole tumul about toiveling the, what do you call it, not toiveling, kashering the aluminum pans. Why? Because they had like a little, like something, a grease, and that was made from treif, and Reb Blumenkrantz made a whole tumul about it, on the foil itself. That's how the producer. My Rebbe Reb Elsky said that that's not there, it's nothing, it's nisht. So here's the same question. He's trying to say it's, you don't see it. That's what his svara was. It's nothing. You feel it, you see it. So I'm asking the same question. When you rinse dishes, sometimes it's just fatty, you don't see anything. But it's there. Is it? Is there a shiur to there? Maybe you come and say it's batel, it's not even there anymore. What happened? That's what I'm asking. That's exactly what I want to know. You know, ein mevatlin issur l'chatchila when it's there, but when it's not there, it's not called ein mevatlin issur l'chatchila. It's just not there. Write down, it's just not there. Reb Elsky, quote Reb Elsky. I'm learning here now. After you learn here now, you could go write a shtikel Torah how to learn siman צב. I first want to read. There's a whole thing, it says it's a taste, balua, you don't see it at all, and he says you can't cook. So I'm asking you, when we say that the balua is batel after 24 hours... But if there's a something there, it's not batel. What about the something that's there is not really there? You can't see it. That's my question, okay? Do you need a well-washed keli, or even a keli that the cleaning lady, who you didn't pay enough money for, that type of washing? Is this the real thing? But you don't know that the cleaning lady, if you don't really pay her, she's not going to wash the dishes properly. We know that. You don't have experience with that. You don't have experience with that. Our wife's a cleaning lady. That's right, and they're not paid properly, so... Unless you say the other way around. In my house, only the men wash the dishes. Okay, let's go weiter, yeah? Okay, so write this down. This is a good question. What's what's wrong? It's a very simple question. I totally understand. I'm saying, if after 24 hours, there's still something—there's no nice... it's good, unless there's something there. What's called something there? I hear, okay. Sometimes you feel it's sticky. Is that called something there, or that's nothing already? I hear, I hear. It's simple. You want to know something? What's what I like about this shiur? Because from all previous different topics, this one's practical. It's a practical shailah. Yeah, but keli. Yeah, she...

You wash the dishes 100%. Is that good enough? So first of all, maybe soap. Is that good enough? Second of all, I don't know, it feels greasy. But you see fat there, there's shuman. You see it? You see a piece of shuman? But maybe that's already batel and that's not a sugya. Okay, continue. I'm not going to answer halacha l'maaseh. We pasken in Ashkenaz that it could work. That's part of the nice and taam lifgam, part of it. So even if you have a thick layer, could it work? If you ruin it, yeah. Enough for a tziruf. They definitely use it as a tziruf for a matir. I use a tziruf, I do. Okay, yeah. Now, and the next thing you have to write is, you hear, im ze gloss of fat. You know, it's sticky, tzah sticky. Okay. Okay, let's go weiter. Hamechab. Mechaba brings down, yeah. Yesh matirim. Right, yesh matirim. So who is the yesh matirim? Look at the Gra. So the Gra tells me that the first shita is the Raivid, and the Mechaber paskens like the Raivid, and this is the shita of the Rambam, that the Rambam holds. So what do we have? Yesh matirim on this halacha. All right, so he says over there that this is the shita of the... Rambam, and the Mechaber paskens the shita of the Ra'avad. Right. That's the Rambam. Right, that's the Rambam. Rambam, Ra'avad, Ra'avad, first shita. Rambam, second shita. Now, or—Maran is not like the Rambam, b'lechora, right? He just brings us a yesh omrim. So who's the stam then? Oh, so let's see. That's the Ra'avad. Ah, so he's saying over here it's the Ra'avad. Okay. They're all learning it the same. This is the Rambam, Ra'avad. This is what it is. Okay. V'ayin b'Gra, shehaMechaber mevi ki yesh omrim sheposek, not mesupak. You have to read it from right to left, not left to right. Sheposek k'haRa'avad she'asar. Okay. And how do we know this? Because in siman tzadi gimmel, and in siman kuf chaf beis se'if gimmel, he clearly says. He says the halacha is if there's anything there, it's not batel. You can read it. That's right. And kuf chaf beis, whichever one you want. I think it's tzadi gimmel, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, maybe. That's it, no? Yeah. ... או שידמינו ולא יהיה בו טעם ... ויש אומרים, דהוא הדין היינו בניומא, והוא מקונח. Oh, he's clean. You see, clearly, even if it's clean, it would be a problem. ואם לא נתן ... נטילת מקום, וגם לא מיטעם משום בחולו, צריך שישים. But it's stam, ... That's what I'm telling you. That's—I'm proving it, right? That's not that he paskens not like that. I told you, the pshat is no yesh omrim. Not—he's not on hold like that, right? Good? Yeah. And in kuf chaf beis also, there's something there we don't say ... You want, you can look it up, whatever you want. It's your class, your shiur, together with Reb Baruch Malinkandov, good man, tzaddik. Yeah. Kuf chaf beis aleph? Yeah. Gimel, gimel. Yesh omrim, ha dechashiva peguma k'she'eina bat yomah, dafka k'shehagedera hedicha. That's it. Yafeh. Yafeh zeh. ... chamnunis. That's what I want. You see? Oh, it has to be all fat.

Yafe, huh? Did you write—did you know this? Why didn't you write this down? Yafe. If you did not, it has to be really clean. Go ahead. That's what I want. There you go. The end. That's what I want. There you go. The end. I don't need ... It wouldn't work. The end. Yeah. I don't call ... It's not bad, not by itself. If it's 24 hours, it doesn't ... Why would someone make a ...? I don't know. Maybe that's different. The point is, it doesn't work unless it's clean. Bottom line, you see it? Yafe, you saw the ... Okay. Now why does he, first of all, not pasken like the Rambam, and why does he bring it as a yesh omrim? Why are you bringing a yesh omrim that you don't pasken like? What would be the reason for that? Where? Here. Lechalek lekavod. This is a—what do you call that?—a spartan dinner, that everyone has to get up and get honored by the dinner. The Beis Shmuel says the name. Could be. I don't—okay, I'm not going to argue directly, but, you know, I would—what's the word I'm looking for? Efsher. Efsher we could say a little bit more, more, more, more, more meat, potatoes. Okay, you ready? So the first thing I want to say is, ulei meibei yesh omrim, me'achar shehu haRambam. This is the Rambam? Yeah, yeah. You know the Beis Yosef has this thing with the Rambam, right? So he's not going to not bring a Rambam; he'll say yesh omrim. Kibalnu re'os haRambam. Yeah. So it could be, which is what the Beis Shmuel is saying, but I'm saying a little bit sharper. Why doesn't he pasken like that? Let's go further. Menirah. I think in those cases, he's paskening cases. Here he's going with klalim. He has to bring the sugya. That's why you find a lot of yeshivim. I came to this conclusion that the last two, three, right, of a mevateles l'chatchila and all these sugyas, it's the klalim sugya. It's the klalim simanim on these things. And that's why he brings all the yeshivim, and that's why he brings it as the yeshivim. Remember? So I think here he's bringing you the klalim, because he knew that one day Sephardic Kollel guys are going to need smicha, and they're going to have to learn the Shulchan Aruch to get it. So he decided to give you the klalim in the Shulchan Aruch. Good? No, but I'm telling you, mori degavor, these two simanim are different than everything else. It's rules. I know it's a big chiddush. I don't know, but that's the feeling I'm getting, because there's no reason just to bring the Rambam if you really don't hold of him and you don't mention him anywhere else. Unless I have one more trick in my sleeve. You ready? Let's see further. Go ahead. Maybe you can't even use the Rambam, period, ever, b'di'eved, nothing. Why? Because he's only bringing it because he's bringing me the yesh omrim, the yesh omrim, the yesh... he's bringing me the rules, just the... Oh, so let's see. So someone's going to say, What right does Rabbi Wolkin—what, you think you're the new Kaf HaChaim on the block? You think you know how to pasken Sephardi psakim? Let's see, I have ra'ayos to this. Let's see. Miu ayin shel Chanaruch? U'chet, siman se'if gimmel? Yeah. What's over there? נפל איסור חם לתוך היתר חם. חם לתוך חם, דקלי ראשון. או אפילו איסור צונן לתוך היתר חם, והכל איסור, אוסר דתתאה גבר. על העליון, ומחמימו עד שיוכלל בתחתון, ואין צריך למד היתר צונן לתוך איסור חם, שהכל אסור, אבל אם העליון חם, והתחתון צונן, צונן אין אוסר אלא כדי קליפה, אפילו אם העליון החם... You don't have the Mirda? Shem yesh שמנונית על המירדה? Oh, really? Kuf hei. Yeah, that could be a problem. Kuf chet. Gimmel. יש, אם יש שמנונית של איסור על המרדא, שקורין פאלע. פאלע, I don't know, some kind of a pot or something, I don't know. What's the difference? אסור ליתן עליה היתר כל היום, ניהו, כשאינה בת יומא, מותר להשתמש בה, משום דאי אפשר בעניין אחר. I thought you said after 24 hours it's mutar. Am I missing something there? That's the Rambam. Shulchan Aruch, the Rambam finally popped its head, popped his, veered his head.

It is a Tosafos. That's right, it comes from a Tosafos. That's correct. Something's wrong here. Something's very seriously wrong. You need to run in the streets and scream, Chay v'kayam, that you have to open up your own kollel now, because there's a big problem now. It's a big problem. To make a big macha here. Something's wrong here. You tell me. That's what I want, which means you can be mitztaref the Rambam b'shaas hadchak. That's where I got it from. This is Rabbi Walk. You've got something that—this is a kasha. I mean, Acharonim talk about it. Something's wrong here. Something doesn't—the Shulchan Aruchs don't add up. And the answer is, b'inyan acher. We're going to get to that in a minute. V'yesh l'taretz. So the first answer you can give is—no? Ah, that's the story. Right? Maybe it's a slight thing over here, and that's why, hey, b'inyan acher, it's good, you can get away with it. You're going to come and say, but you don't like that. Rabbi Belsky said you didn't like it, right? It's a kaf hachaim, and that's where I got it from. He says it clearly. He brings down, b'shem... shadiach ma she... Shalom mir. The story is he cleaned what's bad. This Shamnunis means there's a little bit of something sticky in it. Take care of it in the house, no? That's right. Right, the only time maybe could be, okay, a person goes camping. No, let's see if it even happened already. Oh, I don't understand. Let's say he cooked the pot, he forgot to clean it. I don't know, why is it so difficult? Took a fleishig pot after 24 hours, and he said, But what'd you do? It wasn't clean. He didn't know. He used it again. He put rice in there. I don't know. It's... don't do camping. Why's he do camping? But what do you see from over here? The svara of Yafeh b'en dak. You should do the kaf hachaim. You should do this. This is a major kaf hachaim. This was the raya I brought to my Rebbe, Reb Elsky, when he said it. You liked it? Yeah, it's a kaf hachaim. Very good. I mean, you know, he looked at me like, Wow, I need a... I don't... I say it, I don't need... you know, but whatever. All right, let's move on. Mihu, yesh lomar. Go ahead. Now let him read it, because he was mechaven. Azaria became a big posek. You see, he's talking to mechaven. Go ahead. Big letters. Mishum... Oh, that's the answer. And which means he could be somech on the Rambam, shas hadchak. That's the story. That was my proof that could be the pshat is v'yesh, and that's why he brings it. He doesn't bring it because he's not here to be melaket the shitos. He became the dor hamelaket, you know what I mean? Oh yeah, I'm busy with everything. I'm busy with everything. And because of that I don't sleep, and because I don't sleep I can't function anymore. I come here, I get dizzy. All right, let's move on. Go ahead, yeah. V'im kein... Yesh lomar sheb'diavad somech al haRama. Oh, geshmak, eh? Yeah. U'lefi zeh... This b'diavad thing means not only after the fact, it means... we can also... We'll talk about that. We gotta get to that. You see? You see? It's the shiurim are working, you see? The day has come. I told you, just follow, just listen to me. I know exactly what I'm doing. Ulfizeh... You see? Maybe the Rambam is a yesh omrim, because yesh omrim, therefore you can be somech on it. It's not stam, he bringing lichvodoi shel haRambam. He got up and he put his heart around his hand, his heart, for the Rambam, for the Rambam, yesh omrim, for the Rambam. It's not about a kavod. It's because maybe you can be somech on it. Go ahead. Go ahead. U'vyesh levayer... U'fizeh... Okay, yeah. U'vyesh levayer. Go ahead, go ahead. It's a great question. Something's... I mean, the whole raivid is a pele, which is really what you asked. If it comes, does double gum after 24 hours, so what's the difference if it's in the pot or it's not in the pot or it's on the pot? Which is what the Rambam is saying: after 24 hours, it's gone, right? Done. Have a nice day, right? Okay.

Remember we spoke about this. Is it just nice taam l'vgam and it's good and it's all kosher now, or it's with the halacha now, we'll say bitul? Remember we discussed this, okay? Yeah, good? No? When we say nosein taam lifgam and therefore it's not food and gebai and therefore we don't care, or now that it's nosein taam lifgam so we'll be mevatel it and that's all, finished. Yeah? Continue. U'meila... Nothing. He's unbelievable. He's having what do you call it, withdrawal symptoms. He didn't bring his thing of dangerous today. He's having withdrawal symptoms. Go ahead. Yeah, nu, go ahead. U'meila das haRambam, shekol sheyesh sham nunis, now I understand the Rambam a little bit better. If you have fat there, we're not going to say bitul. What only you say it may be what? Meaning, let's say you have fat, right? Yeah. U'meila das... I'm sorry, not das, das haRaavad. It should be das haRaavad, shekol sheyesh sham nunis, meila ein levatel b'en. That's the pshat. When it's in the pot, we'll say, you know what? In the pot, the Rambam is very simple: nosein taam lifgam, so finished, it's gone. What's the difference if it's bad or not bad? Let's say if it has to do with bitul, you know what you could say? The blius will be mevatel when it's a nice tam lifgam. But where it's b'ein, we're not mevatel issur b'ein. That's what I'm trying to tell you. When it's in the pot and it's not there, we're not going to say ein mevatlin issur l'chatchilah. You're saying who is. When are we saying it is? If it's nice tam lifgam, we're going to say it doesn't really exist anymore. But if it's what, paka b'ein, you see it there, so what are you going to say? It's not there, it's there. The question is, but it's tam lifgam. That's not enough. You have to still say, and therefore it's batel, it's gone, it's finished. Okay, continue. We're not going to make him wait another 24 hours. We're still going to say whatever it says, just wash it out now. Just wash it. Miu, miu, b'di'eved. Because it's not l'chatchilah anymore, because it's b'di'eved. Now you see where the b'di'eved comes in. Please don't even pay attention to the Rambam, what's so rachok. Now you got it, which is not what I was saying. I was saying there could be the pshat, the yesh omrim is that you could be somech on a b'di'eved, says the Pri Toar. No, you can't. And even a hefsed merubah. It's not, it's just not. He just brings it. According to him, they just bring a yesh omrim. Lechalek l'kula. All right, continue. Ah, when you have a pot, what's the halacha? The stomach is clean. V'hiksha milashon haShulchan Aruch, and the Shach says, but it says not like that in the Shulchan Aruch. It says, v'hu... Which means is that you know, otherwise it's... anyway, right? You don't have to say v'hu she'emudach if every keli, especially you walk into a kitchen, it's going to be hudach, and the answer is, u'lai tala banah. If you hold that b'ein is just not nifgam, so chazakas is not going to help you. How is chazakas going to help you? It's b'ein, right? So the chazakah is that it's hudach. He says, go check it. What do you mean? Either you know or you don't know. So, harei yesh issur lefanenu. Mihu, im amrinan she'nifgam, rak shelo nevatel issur lechatchilah. It's about the issur. So once the chazakah tells me that it's a hudach, then the issur can become batel because it's not here. You don't have chazakas issur lefanenu. The oil's not there. Meaning, if you learn that the problem is the oil, so you can't say chazakah, go check it. What do you mean?

Why is that okay, right? Ela mai, it's not the shemen, it's the issur. Remember we spoke about the issur according to the Mechaber? So if it's the issur, so the chazakah tells me it's not here, because for issur you could use a chazakah, right? There's no cheskas issur. Meileh the bittul falls, the bittul comes into play. Now you can go be mevatel it. Why is it ein mevatlin issur lechatchila? What's the pshat? Ein mevatlin issur lechatchila, where there's an issur, you can't be mevatel lechatchila. So if the question is, is there oil or not oil? I mean, that's a metzius she'eilah. Whenever it's a metzius she'eilah, do we say chazakah? But if it's an issur, could I be mevatel this issur? Chazakah and issur do have to do with each other. If there's a chazakah, there's no issur. Once there's no issur, you don't have the ein mevatlin issur lechatchila, and then you can go be mevatel. If you only knew how true—I would write this and put this in a journal. I would write this and put it in the— You want to write a kovetz, you said. You said you want to put out for Pesach a kovetz? This is it. The pats, which might be chametz, okay? This is it, right here. Did you hear what I just said? It's a moiridige vort. If your question is on the metzius, is it or isn't it, chazakah is not going to help you with that, theoretically. Why? If it's there, you got to check it. But if it's not about the fat is there or not there, so what is the chazakah about the issur, is it there or not there? Is the chametz there or not there? The issur. So by issur, chazakah means that there's no issur, and once there's no issur, then there's no problem of ein mevatlin issur lechatchila, and the bittul takes— So what would be a practical case by chametz? Same case, let's talk. No, here's the case. It was 24 hours. A guy cooked Pesach stuff in a chametzdike thing. In a chametzdike thing, after 24 hours. So if you learn b'chezkas, that's hudach. I mean, if you know for sure you weren't matiach and there's not what to talk about, you walked in and you... Yeah, I'm saying that. Before Pesach, I washed my stuff Erev Pesach, and the night before Pesach I want to use it on Pesach will be a problem. On Pesach there's no bittul, right? There may be, because there's no bittul on Pesach. Before Pesach, right. So possibly if you don't know, you cooked it, you weren't sure what happened, you cooked. So if it's about the... so again, you might have the Rambam shita where it's after 24 hours. Or maybe not. Or maybe we can't be busy with the Rambam. Then the other question is, we say chazkaso ibudach anach chazkaso. So here's the question, right? The question would be this shaila: if the pshat is it's about the fat itself, then it's a metziusdige shaila. But if it's about the issur, so the chazakah will take care of the issur. And therefore you can be mevatel with the most of the chametz, whatever you're cooking for Pesach should take care of whatever might be over there. Good? Yeah. It's a good sh... it's a beautiful sh... beautiful, beautiful. Okay, yeah, good. A lot of the heterim can be applied to chametz, right? Of course. That's why it's unbearably difficult, you see, because it's... again, the yayin nesach, cherry kegs. It's a big sugya. People who know. Stick to one thing, you know. Some people are bakiim in Tarubes. Some people are bakiim in formula that's not of Yisrael. There's special expertise.