Nosen Taam Lifgam: Slightly Impaired Taste, Bitul, and the Rashba–Ran Debate

Transcript

What is it? Okay, let's go. Okay, so we're holding now Kuf Gimel, se'if beis. Go ahead, Azaria, read me Kuf Gimel, se'if beis in the Mechaber. Let's see if you could catch the words. Like, what do you think? You know, let's play a different game today, so to say. Let's do a little—what do you think when you read that I'm going to say, you know what, you got to spend time on this. This is saying something. Let's see if you see. Let's see if you could—see, I'm trying to teach you how to read, so let's see if you could see the reading on your own. Okay, go ahead, start. Pagam zeh. And what's zeh? What's he referring to, pagam? This that we just learned. Previous, nosin ta'am lifgam. This pagam that we're talking about, go ahead, read, and from here on I don't want you to do this stuff. And צריך שיהיה פגם לגמרי, doesn't have to be completely nullified, עד שיהיה קץ לאכול. To the point that it's, like, so disgust— you don't need that, okay? You don't need that. Could be, could be. All right, that's a good question. Go ahead, yeah. Okay. But the point is, legamrei. You don't need it to be completely off limits, completely garbage. Go ahead, yeah. אפילו פוגם קצת. Rather, even if it's a little bit pogem. You know that you didn't read what it said; you made up what it said, right? אפילו פוגם קצת. Did he translate what the Mechaber said? What does pogem mean? It becomes pagum. I mean, like—pogem means it ruins that thing, and you translate, even if it is— You see, I'm going to talk about this because this is truly in the Acharonim, and that's the beauty of the Mechaber. He didn't say if it is pagum and you put it in. In this thing, pogem this one. Pogem, not pagum. Pogem, not pagum. Pogem, not pagum. Pogem. Continue. Yeah, you maskim? You maskim? And the truth is, you need to say—this is not a chiddush, not Rabbi Wolk, this has to do with understanding the whole Acharonim on this. Go ahead, yeah. I know, also taruvot. It doesn't aser taruvot. ויש מי שאומר... I know that we're going to spend time on the eino oser, what does it mean? I'll give you a little hint. Could you put it in l'chatchila? L'choira, eino oser means in case it fell in, right? Otherwise you don't say eino oser, just say you can't. It's not mashma you're allowed to put it in; it's just that it fell in, eino oser. Mashma that if I would put it in l'chatchila, right, that can't happen. If you did it, then it would be chayav to bitul. Okay, continue. ויש מי שאומר... דהיינו דווקא כשנתערב. This one, that only when it mixes in it's aser. This removed. It's removed. That's only a little bit. ויש אומרים, some say that this is only when it's a little bit, right? With these pieces a little bit? These pieces giving—it's not delicious, right? But that's only if it's just a little bit. But if it's a lot of bit, you threw in a lot of pagum into it, yeah. מרובה... אבל איסור מרובה... לתוך חֶתֶר מועט... ואפילו מחצה על מחצה... ואין אומרים נותן טעם... We don't say noten taam. We don't say noten taam l'gam, why? Because most of it is issur. So even if it's a taam pagum, we don't care. Now why? We have to discuss that, right? Okay, continue. That's what you need, what, unless it's legamrei, okay? All right, you want to explain to him what we're just, what this mechaber... Okay, so read it. Go ahead, read, nu. Okay, so we'll get back to... Okay, so we'll get to it. When we do the sheet, it'll become clear. Go ahead, continue, yeah. Okay, then you need legamrei.

When it's legamri, then it's everybody holds mutar. We know legamri is even a human would eat it. It's finished. No human being would eat it. Go ahead, yeah. Okay, v'im ein sham mamashos, so let's say if there's no particles of... I feel issur merubah, vheter mu'at, mutar, im pogem ketzas. Okay. So let's now go back to read what we just read, all right? So start over again, and we're going to do the sheet now, okay? B'mechaber. Ein tzarich sheyigam legamrei... Okay. So the Beis Yosef has a question. He brings from the Rashba and the Ran. Go ahead, Nissan, if you want to read it. I don't understand. If it's nosein taam b'mikzas lifgam, why is it mutar? Why? Why would you say it? How is this edible? Yeah, what is Rashi? That's a raya. The question is why. The question is why. Why if something is not nifgam legamri, right, it's nifgam ktzas, it's good enough? I don't understand. At the end of the day, you can eat it, so why is it mutar? Right, we learned it from ger. You forgot the story? A ger, it has to be fit for a ger to eat. So if it's not fit, then it's not fit. And if it is fit, it is fit. And if it's not fit a little bit, so what? But it's still edible. This kasha, the Rashba. Now you're going to say, Rabbi, why do I need to know this Rashba? And why do I need to know this Ran, even though the truth is you should know, because you should know the Beis Yosef, but... It's not about bishul. The two terutzim of the Rashba and the Ran is in the Shulchan Aruch. It's תלוי on how to read the Shulchan Aruch. That's why I brought it. I only bring reading material, okay? So let's see the teretz of the—go ahead, continue—the teretz of the Rashba. You know, once it's a little off, then the ger is not interested in this tam. Because if it's off, he's not interested. And if it's enjoyable, so then it's enjoyable. Whatever it is, it's not. The Rashba says, I don't say the guy's not looking for bad taste in his food. Yeah, please give me some bad taste in it. You know, he's not interested in that, right? Understand even more that when the person eats a regular thing, so you're eating it. Here he doesn't reallyעניין in eating it with the tam pagum. He wants to eat the food, and therefore he's eating with the tam pagum, regardless that there's tam pagum. So taste is—when you ruin the taste of food, you're ruining it for everybody. You don't have to have that it's not edible. If you fell into it—if, let's say you have a piece of steak, side of the steak became a little moldy—that's not what it is. If you fell into a pot something that gives it a little off, the taste is a little off, like a guy throws into cholent some lemon juice. You ruin—if the taste is a little off, the food is off. Right, but it's not not edible, so that's the question. It's edible, right? So why is it kosher? And the answer is, once it's off, the guy is not interested. It's not called ruy lager. And the drash is realiker. That's the drash. Good? Yeah. Now say the... say the... V'ranteres, d'be'ochel hanifgam, ketzas, halo l'maaseh ochlo. Ochel hanifgam, halo l'maaseh ochlo. He's l'maaseh eating it, right? Right? So obviously he's... okay. Aval batam, harei eino neheneh me'osah fazeh, ela mitzta'er. So the Beis Yosef says it's two terutzim. What are the two terutzim? The Rashba's teretz is taste is different than food. Eino ra'ui l'achilah means it's ruined. But when it comes to taste, when it tastes bad, then it's called tasting off. Tasting off is ruined completely. I'm reading a chiddush. Yeah. Food that's just not fresh. So it's food that's not fresh, but it's still, you're eating it. Taste means even with a little bit taste that's off, means it's not edible. No one eats when taste... even if it'll be fresh.

The Ran is learning. The Ran is saying, I don't know, wait a second. The guy's eating the food. This, he doesn't really want to eat that bad taste. He wants to eat the food, and he'll swallow the bad taste, but he wishes there was no bad taste there. If he was able to get rid of that bad taste when he eats it, he would do it. Because the food is still, the food is still. The food is food. So now it's ruining. The bad taste is ruining his food. Ay, he's eating it? Yeah, because he wants the food, not because he wants the bad taste. No. According to the Rashba, taste. Not the taste is pagum. It. It's not taste, not. The food itself becomes pagum. The food needs to be pagum in such a way that it's not edible. The taste does not need that, because taste, even if it's a little off, that means it's not. I'll give you an example. If a guy has a tie that's dirty, or a shirt that's dirty, which is better? Rav Chaim Brisker used to ask this to the talmidim when they came to yeshiva. He said a different vort. He said because a shirt is to cover yourself, so if it's dirty, it's a dirty shirt. A tie that's dirty, it's meant for pretty, so if it's dirty, it's not a tie. Tam pagum means it's nothing. It doesn't have to be ruined. It's just not—it's bad. Something that's there to make something taste good, if it tastes bad, then it's not there anymore, right? It's a moredige vort. Tam pagum is—tam pagum b'miktzas is like tam pagum l'gamrei. Beautiful, huh? It's a beautiful vort. That's the Rashba. Aleph talks about tam. Correct. That's not even me; that's the reading. Okay. The Ran is saying a different thing. The Ran is saying is, the tam, he'll swallow the tam because he wants to eat it. Therefore, you don't have a raya that he's willing to eat the tam. By the food when it's pagum, he's eating it. By the tam, it's not a raya that he's accepting the tam. All right? Those are the two terutz. Okay, continue. Go ahead. נפגם אלא אם פוגם. Right, it says clearly, pogem, not nifgam, not that it is junk. When it gets into the thing, which means could be it's a good thing, but when you put it in, it ruined the whole food. I mean, it's a big issue. The thing itself could be not bad. I take—watch, let me think of a good example. Salt could be a good example, right? You're putting it in. You oversalt it. You oversalt it. It's not ruined. Okay, continue. המכבש את כוסה. אינו אוסר משמע, אבל לכתחילה לא. Oh, ein oser, which means l'chatchila you can't do this. I don't understand. If you hold it's pagum, so go do it. What are you— I don't understand. You just told me that this is tam pagum, and you just say that? Why not? What's wrong? How is that mevatel l'chatchila? You want to explain to me how that's mevatel? I'm not mevatel. There's no issur; it's pagum. You tell me. I don't understand. It's an issur. Until I get to that level, it is something that's mutar. I don't understand. If it's pagum, it's mutar, right? Yeah. So what does that mean? Go ahead and eat a piece of pig just because it's pagum? So we're going to talk about that. Why not? If it's completely pagum, why not? I don't know. You tell me. Why? I mean, you learned it. I'm not learning it. You tell me why it should be that way. Only tasty pigs are aser. It's not tasty. Asher k'vad, what do you care? Just put it in. Seemingly should be aser. My understanding is that the Torah assered even if it tastes bad. Seemingly, and your understanding in a court of law means nothing. The question is why. You need to address the question of why, and it's not me. Everybody asks this question. It's a simple question. If you hold it's pagum, then why do you have to even discuss? There's no question of bitul. And then just do it l'chatchila. Finished. No, it's not.

If you just say it's a ta'am lifgam, just say it's no good. And lager shebisharecha means the guy is allowed to eat it; it's pasul achilas goy, right? So go put it into your food. It's mutar. Why do you have to talk about, in the story of bitul, what does bitul have to do with this? Is it a nice ta'am lifgam? Yeah. So where did the word bitul come in here? So what does it have to do with halachah of ein mevatlin l'chatchilah? Maybe there's no heter to make—just because this is mutar, who says he can go and affect other food with it as well? Right, that's what it says. The question is why. Who says he has to do it? Maybe he shouldn't do it. Who said? But someone has to tell me, and I'll do that, right? Who said? I don't know. That's the question. You know what? You're right, that's the question. Who said it? I don't know. It's two different things. One has nothing to do with the other. Whatever it is, to take something which is pagum and throw it into something—what's wrong with that? Oh, right, if you learn, but that's not the story really. Pashut means it's a davar pagum and you're putting it in. It's a simple question. It can't be that complicated. Something which is pagum—whatever it is, is it pagum, yes or no? The taste, not the actual pig. What do you mean? That means it's not edible. Whatever, it's not edible. Sir, is it edible, yes or no? No, he didn't. He ate it if he ate it. I'm talking about take a piece of junk and put it into your cholent, big deal. What do you need bitul for? What does ein mevatlin l'chatchilah have to do with this? Okay, keep on reading. ומוכח שגם בנויסן טעם לפגם, נחסינן לדין ביטול, ושביע בדין דאין מבטלין איסור לכתחילה. So you see from here. I'm with you. I'm going to bring all this. I'm going to bring all this, but you asked me to learn with you, and I got to do this. You're not even clear on the basic. There's a basic question here: how did nosein taam lifgam turn into bittul? There's nothing to do with bittul. It's mutar, finished. Okay, and the answer might be one of five things. I'll give you five heichi timtza that maybe, I don't know, five options. Okay, option number one: ומוכח, דגם נחתינן לדין ביטול. Machtinan is we apply the din of bittul. ושביע בדין... You know what it is? I'm not arguing with you. You don't know—what's the word—order. You saying this, but the question is why, and I'm showing you how it doesn't really... and it's מוכח, yeah, okay, so we're briskers, it's מוכח. Yeah, but it's not a din in the pasuk. You have to explain why. It's מוכח that it has to do with bittul. Why? What does it have to do with bittul? According to this, Rebbe just accepted it without the answer. I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying I'm going in order. You know what it is. It's very important because this is how I train you how to learn, step by step. If this, so then the next question is, and it's obvious from here what you said. You said this, but the question now is why it's that way. The next step is, and why would it be that way? So move ahead. Go. Oh, maybe that's the reason. Maybe you can't do this here because you might do it on the davar, which is nice and tam l'shvach, which might not be a din bitul necessarily. It's because of gezeirah, maybe. Sound familiar? Continue. V'ulai... You with me? Still with me? Yeah. V'ulai, it's in the... it might be based on that Yerushalmi. V'ulai, אי אמרינן... If you learn that it's asur mid'rabbanan, sound familiar? That's what you were trying to say. Maybe it's the asur. A davar pagum is not mutar. What's the raya? Huh? Somebody bring it. Mishpetei Zav. I, Mishpetei Zav, siman katan aleph, v'chein pask... you're posek. Where's the... I skipped something, huh? Yeah.

We're gonna shop here, but inan. Yeah, but inan l'din. It's a kaf ha-chayim. What's gonna go? Mi'ulfizeh, b'pagum l'gamri, ... mem. B'pagum l'gamri, yemutar l'arvel u'vatel l'chatchilah. If maybe you're gonna say that this is only mid'rabbanan, aser anyway, okay, so then what about when it's mamash nifgam? It's also aser. Im lo shenaimar, go ahead, shegam pagum l'gamri, lo chol mid'rabbanan. ... v'chein pas ... kaf ha-chayim. Then on a noiset tam lifgam, not mutar. Noiset tam lifgam, the davar ha-pagum is aser. It's always aser. Okay, continue. U'kenasarev, pagum b'heter, shemutar likach ha-taroves. Which means like this: to take it and put it in, that I'm allowed to. If I could take that and put it somewhere else, I could l'chatchilah go do that. Yes, you could corona it to others. Only if you can bitul. First one. Yeah, yeah. It's also aser the same status. No, no, mutar, it's mutar. It's without bitul. If this pagum thing falls inside the first one, right, that pagum has to be bitul in the first one. It's not bitul, then it's aser. No, doesn't become. Because it's batel, so then it's mutar. Right. You're allowed to eat it. The whole point, what I'm understanding so far is you can't do it purposely. The idea is that it falls by accident. No. That's the whole idea, that on the first one you can't be mevatel l'chatchila. But in second—second, even if I want to do it purposely, I could go do it purposely. And the first one happened by accident; the second one I'm doing it purposely. Ah, says the Shach. I'm not— You like the numbers. I'm not busy with the numbers right now. Question. That's the answer. The answer is it works. No, because otherwise then it's mutar. So what's your question? Of course it's mutar. I'm allowed to eat it, so I'll put it into something else. The answer is without bitul. The answer is this is no good, but I'm allowed to take it now and put—why? Something's missing here. Yeah, that's the question. That's right. Good. That is the question. That's the question. Okay, go ahead. Continue. What happens if it's not pogem, but it's also what? Not mashbiach. So we talked about nifgam k'tzas. What happens if it's not pogem at all, right? Yeah, you with me, Yehuda? Not pogem, right? So the Knesses HaGedolah—continue—u'pri chadash, d'asru. That's l'choira the diyuk, what it says. It has to be pogem. Let's talk l'maaseh here. What did the Ran say? The Ran said here—what did the Rashba say? The Rashba says ta'am that doesn't add ta'am. I thought according to the Rashba, taam that doesn't... taam is not really, isn't that what he said? According to the Ran, the pshat is, I'm eating it anyway, but I really don't want this, right? I really don't want this. So when something's just not—it's not nifgam, it's not nifgam. So if a taam is not meshabeach something, why is it important that it should be, even if it's not meshabeach, as long as it's not pogem? Over time the question. Tell me, would a goy eat this? No. Not ruining it, but he wouldn't eat it.

And the pshat is that the Ran is learning that the tam is not a tam, right? The Rashba, the tam is not a tam because it's nifgam. So why don't you say the same thing if he was not mishaber? The guy would never eat this. But he wouldn't eat it. It's not roi. It's nothing. Nobody would eat it. If I took paper and I put it into food, would you eat it? No. Would it ruin the thing? Maybe not. No, maybe it wouldn't ruin it. It's like, let's say you have soup without salt. It's still food, but if you add the salt, then it's going to be nishaber. Why is it important that the thing should be nifgam, even if it's not nifgam, according to the sevara, that when the guy eats it, he's not interested in the tam. But again, it's not real geir because it's nothing. Something which is not food, all right? Something not food. It's not pogem, it's not not pogem. It's just not edible because it's nothing, right? What would be the halacha in such a case? You know, a lot of these things have no taste whatsoever. A lot of the things you put into food, everything adds taste really. Okay, let me try. Well, no. There are things that are there for binding that doesn't get any taste whatsoever. Now, breadcrumbs, they add taste. Something that doesn't have taste, okay? Would he eat it? Would the guy eat it? The guy just take gelatin and eat it. Probably not. I mean, no. No. You put it in, it's not mishabeach, but it's not pogem. So now what happens? That's weird. He would eat it. No, he would eat it when it's in the cake. Would eat it when... Remember I asked you, when is it nifgam? Is it nifgam before or it's pogem when it goes into the food? That's what I'm telling you. That could be the topic. It's an interesting topic. What happens if the thing is not fit to eat? Gelatin. Nobody eats a... Nobody eats gelatin the way it is, right? Forget about mine. So it's not mine. Don't bother me with the details. I'm just giving an example. It's only eaten once it's already mixed with something. Ah, taseh. You see? It's a davar nifgam because nobody would eat it. Do we look at that and say, you know what? It fell in, so then it's okay. Good. Good. So say that. That's exactly—it's a good example. But we talk about nifgam. Is it nifgam before it went in, or is it nifgam after? No? Oh, good. The Ran and the Rashba is relevant in what the sugya really is. According to the Ran, it's about the tam, and the tam, he'll swallow it, but he really doesn't want the tam. According to the Rashba, the question isn't once it goes in. Who is it? Go ahead. Ayin b'hemshech, go ahead. Okay, b'mechaber, go ahead, nu. There's somebody directly if you're a Rashba, shelo kehara, ma shenasof sof, and then the miser. Okay, so read me the two mechabers. Mechaber has two yesh omrim. Go ahead. There's somebody. Who is the somebody? You know who that is? That is the Rashba. According to the... Which Rashba is he referring to? The Be'er Hagolah says Rashba, Toras Habayis ha'aruch. What's that Rashba? That's the yesh mi she'omer. Oh, what's that Rashba? The Gra says it's the Ran. Now you know my shit? How to learn this. The two ta'amim.

He's arguing on his grandfather. He says the first yesh mishayim is the Ran, or the second one? Oh, there's two yesh mishayim. The first one is the Rashba, and the second one is? The second one yesh mi she... is Rashi, is the Ran. That's the way he's learning it. I'm not sure. The Gra learns differently. The Gra learns what? The first one is the Rashba, and the second one is also Ran. What's bothering the Gaon? How could the first one be the Rashba and the second one be the Ran saying two different things? It's this Rashba and Ran. This, why these two halachos are dependent on this question, the teretz of the Ran and the Rashba. You understand? And the problem is, Mechaber is paskening here the Rashba and here the Ran, and that doesn't make any sense. So let me tell you what we're going to do. We're going to stop here because it's a lot. We're going to stop over here. Tomorrow, im yirtzeh Hashem, we're going to have to finish this, okay? Your job tomorrow is the two yesh mishayimers. One of them is going to be only according to the Rashba, l'choira, and the other is going to be only according to the Ran. So you've got to know the Ran and Rashba well, and then you'll see. But you can't have the Ran and the Rashba. It's two different terutzim, and the Gaon learns they're both the Ran. All right, make sense now? That's everything to what I just told you. Is it about the nifgam or is it about the poygem? You know, let's just do the first one. Let's see. Get one of them. Get the first one. Do the first. Yeah, do it inside. Yeah. Most of it is the issur, right? We don't say it, right? According to the Ran, who cares? He just wants the food. He's hungry. No. The Gra says that cannot be the Rashba. Why? You tell me. Because according to the Rashba, what's the whole reason? Taste, right? But taste is—this is not taste. It's most of it. It's like almost like the hen. It's not taste. It's like almost like the hen. The hen, you said, is a problem. I do the next one. Let's see how the next one is only the Ran and not the Rashba. Huchach. He proved, yeah. ... she'im higdila issur mi'daato shel heter ad shehu mishbiach yoter, k'she'ochel bigdol mi'daato mi'ma shehu poigem, v'hefsed mi'ta'amo, oser ad sheyivtol ma'achal. Okay, we're gonna stop over here. All right? So you got it? Yeah. Now remember the wording, yesh mi she'omer, and what's the other one? Yesh mi she... Oh. It's language, though. Interesting. This is your job to work on, okay? Work on, pal, work on. I led you to the words. Now you gotta—this is the sugya: the Ran, the Rashba, the two nuschaot, the two in the Rishonim, and l'choira, how do you have a Rashba and a Ran unless the Rashba and Ran are really the two are the same? Nifkamin poik. Remember the nifkamin poik, okay? Good?