Basar Bechalav: Tata’ah Gavar—Halachic Principle, Heat Transfer, and Bishul on Shabbos

Transcript

I'm gonna say the opposite. I say everyone thinks called the ilam gavar, and I say called the tatah gavar. Whoever's on the bottom, he wins. I like it. Yeah. And you know when I made it up? Today, this morning. How you doing? Shachris. I hold jobs worth just. Another Jew comes Shachris. One of the basic yesodos and halachos of basar b'chalav is the concept and din of tataah gavar, which means the bottom always overpowers, gavar, it overpowers what's on top. For example, let's say I pour milk into cold milk, or actually, yeah, let's say cold milk to hot meat on the bottom. So the bottom is the hot, and it becomes cooked basar b'chalav that the milk goes everywhere, because tataah, the bottom wins. If it would be the other way around, that the hot was on top, and then I put it onto cold, so the bottom would win and it wouldn't work. But they klip, which means just that lining where the milk is touching the hot milk, that would become basar b'chalav. So, in words, it's tataa gavar, ilaa gavar. The bottom wins or the top wins. And the halachic nafka mina l'maaseh is when cold gets onto hot bottom, then the whole thing becomes basar b'chalav. It's cooked. If hot goes onto cold bottom, then kedei klipah, just that lining gets cooked, that where you touched, and the rest of it is not cooked. It's not basar b'chalav. This is the simple, basic halacha of tataa and ilaa gavar. Okay, does everybody understand the halacha? Let's repeat it. Did you know this? You knew this, tataa gavar, right? Tataa gavar means it's basar b'chalav, milk on top of hot. If it's not tataa gavar—I'm sorry, if the tataa gavar and the top is hot and the bottom is cold, then just that lining. If you would hold ilaa gavar, then it would be the reverse, which means if the hot was the top coming on, then it would make basar b'chalav, and if not, right, then it would be kedei klipah. It would be the reverse. Now, why are we talking the two sides of the coin? Because this is a machlokes Rav and Shmuel, and you need to know the sugya of tataa gavar well, because when you understand tataa gavar well, you'll understand why Rav holds ilaa gavar, and you'll see the nafka mina l'halacha. Okay? It's not just who cares about Rav. It's more than who cares about Rav. When you understand Rav and Shmuel, you'll understand where maybe we need to deal with Rav a little bit also. Okay? So again, does everybody hear clearly the halacha l'maaseh? Tataa, gavar. Ila gavar is Rav. So let's read it inside. Ein Gemara. Ein Gemara Pesachim, machlokes Rav uShmuel, אי אמרינן אילא גברא או כתא גברא. So that's where the Gemara is. Gemara Pesachim, Rav is ila, and Shmuel is tatah. Okay. I'm good. עין שולחן ערוך, yeah, here we go. שנקטינן כשמואל. Yeah, we pasken like Shmuel, שתתאה גבר. Okay, so that's where it's, צד ג' סעיף ד'. עין ערוך השולחן. Go ahead, one more, go ahead. עין ערוך השולחן. This is a classic, famous Aruch HaShulchan. He says, איננו ראינו. We see that it's just not true. It's just not a true story. You don't have the paper. Really. Okay, just not a true story. He says, איננו רואות דהיכא שנפל כמות מרובה של חלב רותח על בשר צונן, שאינה תחתית גבר. The milk, the hot on top wins. So what are you talking about? And the reverse? No, but we don't know yet. We're not even sure. But all he says is—we're not holding. We're going to discuss quantity in a few minutes. But the bottom—

The line, it says, Darach haShulchan, the science is not real. Or they call junk science, and I don't mean it. I'm just saying it's just not real. You know, like there's fake news, there's junk science. Junk science is when something is just not... It says, Darach haShulchan, it's junk science, okay? Einenu ro'is that it's not, v'chein l'hepech, and so too the reverse. Okay, comes along Darach HaShulchan. Go ahead, read. Ein sham shemitaretz. Go ahead, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you reading? Ein sham shemitaretz. They don't have the machlokes of Rav Shmuel, Rav Chiya, shehem shavin b'kamus. Oh, sound familiar? That's what you wanted. When they're shav b'kamus, then we have the machlokes of ila gavar and tata. They're both the same amount, okay? D'im lav, because if it's not the same exact amount, then haroi, if it's always whichever is rov, right? The majority wins. All right? Ben shehu l'maalah, ben shehu l'matah. So is this what you're answering, Nissan? That has to do with how much? Right, so that's the answer. The answer is that the machlokes is when it's even-steven, all right? But if there's a rov, and that was his question, what do you mean? We see that it's never—it's always hot milk, and the answer is yeah, if it's rov, it's gonna win. That's not the machlokes, Rav Shmuel, okay? The kasha, go ahead, next one, the kasha. Hametziut. What are you arguing? I don't see the metziut. Go to the laboratory and figure it out. What do you argue? Yeah, I don't want to argue with it. We should say the rule is every case is different. Every case is different. I don't know. Find out. What's the issue? Hatagavar. It's almost like a din Torah, and the question is who, like kol d'alim gavar and muchzak. I don't know. It's a strange story. Einenu ro'eh, einenu ro'eh. Our eyes see, so our eyes see this also. I don't know. If it's cooked, it's cooked. I don't know. How could you have a machlokes just because it's even, like what the chachamim aren't sure, so misafek? Something's weird here. Something is not... So let's, let's, let's, okay. Ayin yad Yehuda. Go ahead, next one. You want to say? You want to say? Yeah, Yad Yehuda? Huh? David? Yeah, okay, go ahead, Nissan. Yeah, Yad Yehuda. Tzascham sheyach le'esor. You're right. It has nothing to do with the einenu ro'eh. You're right, meaning he's answering the Orach HaShulchan's kash. We see that a lot of milk, yeah, and the answer, yeah, because that's dropped. The first drop definitely becomes cooked from the hot from the bottom. So tipa tipa becomes cooked. You're right. At the end of the day, the harbei tzonen wins over the cham, right? Or the other vice versa. Who cares? Questions drop by drop every second, right? Drop. We're only talking about a case where it's hot on hot or hot on cold, or—he's asking, how could hot on hot—what's the question? Either it's cooked or it's not cooked. I don't understand. I can imagine a guy saying, Yes, it's cooked, it's not. Whatever happened, happened. And the answer is because it didn't happen. You're right, it didn't cook. Maybe every drop becomes aser, and this drop, and this drop asers, and this drop, and therefore it's not a question of, at the end, what to look at. We don't care about the end. In the first drop, drop by drop becomes a problem, okay? Okay. This is the Yad Yehuda, the famous answer. Okay, go ahead, next. Vayichaves das, yeah? Oh, not true. It's not mechamem. You're right. The question was, it's not mechamem the top, and the answer, yeah, but it's enough for beliya, in that top. So what is the Yad Yehuda's learning? It's the drop that's falling, and he's learning even in the top there's drops that are becoming aser. Interesting, huh? Do you think you can explain to him? They should understand it better? Explain it. It's an interesting— You know what I'm going to do with this? I'll tell you what I'm going to do with this. I think Yad Yehuda, I think Chavas Daas is trying to get facts.

Facts straight, all right? Is drops cooking, and they are cooking. And I think the Aruch HaShulchan is learning that this din of tatah and ila'ah covers the din; it is what it is. It's like a din Torah. When you have basar and chalav, and what happens? And the answer is, whichever's on the bottom or whichever's on the top. They're arguing not in a metzius of cooking. They're arguing in a din of basar and chalav. Exactly. L'choira, what it's doing— all the halachos of kashrus, you could go food science or throw out all food science. There's two worlds. Not going. In Shabbos— I'm gonna talk about it. I'm gonna get there. It's exactly what I'm getting to. I'm getting to Shach. Lishon. It's exactly what I'm gonna talk about. Anyone else? A lot of people say like Rabbi— I don't think he says it so. You understand what I'm saying? Let me call up the bureau if everyone says so. Hello? He wants to know if everyone says— What number is that? I've been looking for it. Okay. The answer is they all answer. In all yeshivas, they say this. Yeah, you have to say it. It's a din or a metzius. Okay, you ready? Rabbi Ribias is a good man. Okay, listen carefully. Could you repeat over what we just asked? Because the truth is, when you understand what the basic mareh mekomos, you see what the whole sugya basar b'chalav. The question is, you're making a chibur of basar and chalav, and it's done through heat. The question is, because you need that it's cooked. Well, it's taka a chibur that you're making. So what happens when it's even, when it's this and this, right? That's a nice shaila. That's a nice shaila. You know, I didn't even bring it here, but I was thinking about it. There's a whole shaila: what happens if it's not like this and it's like this? I don't remember. It's Pri Megadim. I have to look it into it. I forgot. I forgot to write. I was busy. Maybe ta togavar is only this and not this. Why is it? I know, but maybe what's the difference? The metzius is the same. If you learn like the Yad Yehuda, isn't it the same? Transfer, transfer, what's the difference? What's the difference on top, the bottom, the side? Who cares? You have to. You have to. Okay. Otherwise, when he comes to Shabbos, he's gonna have a lot of questions. I'll try to find this family and tell them there's a guy out there that gives you this square. I don't understand the machlokes between Rav and Shmuel. Why does it matter if it's this on this or this on this? So that's the whole question. This to this. Are you eating bagels with lox or lox with bagels? This is really the issue. Ta togavar. Did this come to this or did this come to that? What's on top, what's on the bottom? Okay. Did you understand the Yad Yehuda? You understood the Yad Yehuda not really. You didn't understand it. Okay, so listen, do me a favor. I'm a tired old man. I want you to explain to me everything we just said from the beginning. Explain. Explain the issue. Start from ta togavar and go ahead. Just explain. So he said there's a rule that whatever... If the bottom is on the bottom, that's what's gonna establish if taste is transferred or not. Meaning, if the bottom was hot, even though a cold milk fell on the hot item on the bottom, since the bottom was hot, that enables the top, even though it's cold and shouldn't transfer taste, it's now gonna transfer taste because it got touched a hot bottom. Yeah, you see? So we said that this is really a machlokes Rav and Shmuel. Do we go according to the top or the bottom in regards to what's hot, what's cold? We said we pasken like Shmuel, who said the bottom is what establishes if it's gonna be transferred taste or not. Asked, we brought the question of Rav Ocha Shulchan, who says that seemingly we see physical reality is not like this. We see that a lot of cold milk that falls on one small piece of meat that's hot, the milk's not gonna get cooked because it's too much milk that falls on a piece of meat. Or you have the other way around. You have a cold piece of meat that has a little hot milk fall on it, and if there's gonna be physical transfer of taste because there's hot milk on a piece of steak, what do you mean? Anything that's on the bottom, it always establishes if there's a transfer of taste or not. It's not true. Physical reality sees otherwise. A little bit of hot milk can cook a piece of meat.

So we brought the answer that the Aruch Hashulchan said. The machlokes Rav and Shmuel was only where both the milk and meat are the same quantity. Obviously, if you have a small amount of meat and you have a lot of milk, so the lot of milk will overpower the temperature gain, no matter where it is. However, if you have the same amount of quantity, then you go with the ruling whatever is on the bottom. Now the question: what is that all about? What is that? Either it is or it isn't. I mean, what, again, is the story? Yeah, same issue. Why are we relying on this bottom or top? We should just say whatever gave the taste or not. Just check it. Check it, something, I don't know, hot, cold, I don't know, whatever happened, happened. You think if it's 20 ounces and not, makes a difference? It doesn't make a difference. It has to do with did it cook or didn't cook. Meaning, if you have one less milliliter of milk, right, so now we're going to say tataga. Or if you have one more milliliter, now, no, we're going to see if for sure gave taste, because we know. We know. Again, what do you know? Sounds like monkey business. Very well said. Aruch Hashulchan also said. Okay, yeah. Ayin Yad Yehuda, go ahead. The Yad Yehuda said that you're missing the whole story over here. The machlokes of tatan ila gavar is not about a metzius, because the metzius is it cooks anyway. Why? Because we're only really bothered with what's happening in the first initial contact of the milk and the meat, according to what the halacha would be if tataga or... The top one is gavar. That's gonna make the halacha for whenever the first drop touches the— and the next drop touches the meat, and the next drop touches the meat. You're right, in any situation, if there's hot milk, okay, so it'll cook the whole meat. It will be cooked at the end. But we need to know in halacha, is it considered cooking for the first few drops? That way, that'll tell us the halacha is for the whole situation. And in that case, amounts don't matter, right? Right. That's what you're trying to say. It's not really about amount. It's ta'am gavar means this is cooking. It keeps on— as you're pouring, it's cooking. You don't gain anything from looking at the end result. It's all gonna be cooked. You don't gain looking at the end result. Okay, continue. Chavos Daas is saying, yeah, also along the same lines, we're not discussing— we're discussing something within the non-cooked because it was too little that really did get cooked. A few molecules in there from the non-cooked got cooked. You see that they're busy with the science of, yeah, did cook, it didn't cook, it didn't cook, it did cook. Aruch HaShulchan, it's almost like a din. The question is, is this basar b'chalav cooked? And the answer is what's on the bottom of the pot. Okay, continue. B'nira— okay, go ahead. B'nira, go ahead, Azai, b'nira. Do we look at ta'am gavar? That's the din, or it's a metzius? Okay, you do one more. Yadua— kushya ta'pri megadim. Halacha l'maaseh, nitna l'tfeilah lita, v'hu yomer, sa'ila gavar hata'am. Now the נודע ביהודה brings it down b'shem somebody. Some guy asked him this kasha. Go on. You'll find out. Go to a guy and come to taste it, I don't know. No, so if you learn today— that's what I'm trying to tell you. Okay, go ahead. U'mitaretz. So what does he answer the Pri Megadim? Go ahead, next one. You're right. There's no way. There is no scientist. There's no way to do it. It's b'dlakik feila. Now, of course, it's a big doichek in the Gemara, right? To learn that the story in the Gemara is b'dlakik feila, that the whole... it takes us there. It makes the whole sugya really not... They would go and fight it. It's all about just an... Right, you couldn't have said it any better. You took the whole thing, you sucked it out. What, there's no goy? There's nobody around with this? What, you're in Chavis? You're in a desert? It's crazy. I mean, I should... Okay, go ahead, yeah. Ma'ayin. Go ahead, next one, yeah. I know, Yehuda. Sha'arei, haGemara b'min b'mino. Oh, that's the answer. The answer is there's no way to understand the tata gavar, because the question is, you can't get to—it's both min b'mino. The treifus of the story of tata gavar, but who says basar b'chalav? Maybe it's two pieces of one—it's one heter, so how is the guy going to know what? How does he know which one's asur, which one...?

It's a great, it's a great, it's a great ha'ara. Comes along the Noda B'Yehuda, v'heiksha. He says, but I still can figure it out. You know how I can figure it out? Shenikach, we're able to take here boto kamut b'she'eino mino. Do a science project. We could do a science project. We could take here the same amount of meat with this different min, and then see in this amount, does it transfer? Doesn't it? Oh, it's like the, with the vegetable, the Gemara says, right? Let's go and, yeah, let's go and do the same thing as if it was meat, and do a science project, yeah? Comes along, v'ayin sham shemetaretz. He gives an answer. What's the answer? Go ahead, next one, keep on reading, yeah. V'ayin sham shemetaretz, mofet chotech. I love the language. It's not a clear science. He says it clearly, mofet chotech, which means it's not a clear equation. Not always. Sometimes it does happen. You can't figure it out. Yeah, it's a very... mofet chotech. He's saying sometimes this amount will need to taste, and sometimes the same amount won't. Yeah, yeah. Like if you follow a recipe, sometimes you get it right, sometimes you don't get it right. That's right. That's right. Sometimes it has... it always happens. Depends how thick the meat is, depends how much it was cold outside, how old is the... I don't know. It doesn't always work. So many variables. You hear the lashon? Mofet chotech. It's not a clear recipe. So what then? V'la'ahad, l'pa'amim naisna ta'am, u'l'pa'amim lo, u'v'chol zeh asur. And it's still asur. Why? Why? Why? V'nira shechalkin kanah. If you learn tatal gavar has nothing to do with sometimes yes, sometimes not, so then what is it based on? It's a din. That's it. Tatal gavar. That's the halacha, finished. That's it. Who cares what happened? Who cares? You're right. Sometimes it's not tatal gavar. You don't even know. They say, who said? Sometimes in the same scenario, it's not tatal gavar. That's the halacha. Let me write that down. Put the finger there. Do a picture. Can you just think, sometimes yes, sometimes no, who said that? The Noda B'Yehuda said it, good or not? Because too many variables, that's what he's saying. You can never... Okay, so let me tell you what we're going to do again. Once you hop this sugya, this is interesting, interesting stuff. So we're going to start from Michoel. Go ahead, give it one more, a quick chazara. Quick, go ahead. A quick chazara from the beginning. You, you, you, a quick chazara. I want my son Pinchas to hear it also. Go ahead, start quickly, but quickly, quickly, quickly. From the beginning? Yeah, but quickly. ... Go ahead. No? So the Gemara says, is machlokes tatal gavar or the tapes gavar. He knows this. Yeah, so we said the halacha is like Shmuel, that tatal gavar. We asked that with the Aruch HaShulchan. He asked that, what do you mean? We see a lot that the food does get cooked even though seemingly you should say tatal gavar. If there's a lot of hot milk, the meat will get cooked even though the bottom's cold. So we said, basically he's saying reality is not like that. So he answered that the machlokes was only shayach where it's the same kamut. If it's different kamuyos, then you're on your own. Do your own investigation. So we asked, so again, if the kamut is the same, so it's a she'eilah again. So then what's the point of having the machlokes where the kamut is the same? Just say, do your own investigation if it cooked or not. Aruch HaShulchan sends you to do your own investigation when it's not same kamut. Right? You do the same even when it's a kamut, the same kamut. Go figure it out. I don't know, did it cook or it didn't cook? Yeah? So we give an answer that... That the whole question of did it cook or not, that's for sure. That's for sure that every case that's going to be cooked at the end, depending on the heat. The question is, in halacha, is it considered cooking when the first drop of milk touched the meat? If you say tataa gavar, so it changes the halacha for that first drop, and that's all we care about, because from there the halacha... See, we're not gaining anything by looking at the end result, because there's more about basar b'chalav that's issur before the end result. Did it cook or didn't cook? It's the drops, or it's the bliyos of the thing that comes on the milk on top. Some molecules within the milk are getting cooked. You cook milk. You're cooking—it's a lot of molecules that are getting cooked in the milk, right? When you cook milk, so l'choira you cook all the molecules, right? But let's say you cook halfway. Some molecules probably cook quicker than others, no? There's different parts to milk. Milk isn't only one molecule, right? What's the molecule? What is the molecular...

makeup of milk, you like it, the molecular makeup. I know it's true. If it wasn't true, I wouldn't be saying it. And if it wasn't true, I'd be saying shiur in other yeshivas. Here we only say the truth. Wow. Go ahead, Nu. I don't care about what you used to do. Talk to me the milk. What is the molecular molecule of the milk? You mix different solutions. Yeah. You have two different boiling points. You could boil away certain amounts and leave... That's how you purify. That's how you purify, exactly, because from within... Let's say you have a mixture of benzene and toluene. That's different boiling points. That's right, they have different boiling points. Eh, different boiling... This rabbi knows some science, huh? I know. What do you think, I born yesterday? You think I come and say, ... no, I know what I'm talking about. Okay, yes, let's go. ... Go ahead, Nu. Within that thing, that's what he's saying. He's saying the chavis daas is saying ... So advanced chemistry is, what is it? Basar b'chalav, science 101. That's what I was trying to tell you. Are we talking about the science, or are we talking about the din of basar b'chalav? Did you hear what I just told you? Hafla vafele, hafla vafele. Here, the scientist here came to tell us, you see, that we're saying good. Okay, go ahead, Nu. Go ahead, next, Nu, next. Go ahead, Nu, zog. Nu, comes along the Pri Megadim and he asks a kasha, Nu zog, Nu, what are you wasting time? Let's go. Zog the Pri Megadim. Why? What's the whole shakla v'tarya of our top gavar? Just give it the kefila, done. He says, no, hastugah, no kfeilah. We live in the desert. The machlokes, Tatal gav ma... it says only when there's no kfeilah. The whole sugya fell away. Okay, comes along da, daitibehuda. Oh, is min b'mino? No, maybe it's min b'mino, maybe that's the sugya. We're not talking about basar b'chalav. I mean, we do have it in basar b'chalav, but the Gemara was talking about what? Maybe min b'mino. There's no way to tell. How do you solve the solution of a problem of min b'mino? You take the min and see if it would cook in a different mino, right? And then give it to treifah. The turnips. The turnips, and then give it to a kfeilah, says the Neidah Bihuda. Therefore it says, the chiddush, that what? No two foods are cooked the same. No, there's no way to figure this thing out scientifically. He didn't cook it. Yeah, cooked sometimes yes, sometimes not. So what's he saying? Tatal gav is a din. It is what it is. The chachamim came and said it is what it is. It is what it is. And therefore you have to learn that it's a basar b'chalav, hilchos basar b'chalav, an attachment sugya, and not a what, a science bishul sugya. Repeat after me, write that down. It's a chibur basar b'chalav sugya in metzius, and not a science of bishul. But there are those who learn it is science. I know. So let's talk more, let's talk more. V'ayin Orach HaShulchan. Comes along the Orach HaShulchan in se'if katan hei, yeah? Nu, go ahead. ... rak heicha sheyesh vadai issur. Rak shehalinan lei dad im lemaaseh ne'esar, aval lo shelin lei lehachria lamina issura. Unbelievable insight, says the Orach HaShulchan. A kfeilah cannot tell you asur or mutar. He can't establish issurim. A goy can't establish issurim, says the Orach HaShulchan. So what does he do? If there is an issur basar b'chalav and it's there, he can tell you, is it or isn't it there. Oh, you can't taste the steak. Oh no, there's butter in here. I know there's butter in here. Right, that's right, it's asur. He can come and say that the issur of basar b'chalav that's in here is in it. I taste it. But he can't come and say, Tatal gav and make basar b'chalav. That's moydi chiddush. Question is, why not? What is that all about? It's a din. That's right, the Aruch HaShulchi. See, the Aruch Shulchan is l'shitasei. Tatagav is a din. It's not a science. It's a science. Why can't you ask a guy, what's right? It's defined by a shor, shor and a... That's right. The shor muad. Muad. Same thing. He can't establish what is the halacha. He can establish what the metzius is. Tatagav is established in the halacha, not the metzius. How can you learn— Rabbi Wolff's chiddush is good stuff. It was very... How can you learn other than that if it's only top and bottom? What about side to side? You would have to deal with, in the Gemara, wouldn't they have to deal with that, the side to side? Because that's how things cook. It doesn't just cook top and bottom. That's right. So the fact that it's not, it's mashma what you're saying. Is there any other way to understand that? Not if you're normal. I'm trying to figure out where— that's what I started, I forgot to write, but that's where I started from. I started by chapping tatagav is only one on top and one side by side.

Who cares if it's a science thing? What's the difference? Okay, let's go further. Mabir kanal, go ahead. Sharach hashulchan leshitaso is reading. You're reading? Go ahead. Sharach hashulchan leshitasa, yeah. Shatata gavar, din v'lo metziut. Now, Ein Shulchan Aruch haRav chayim in this. Go ahead. You go. Shabbos, go, talk. No. V'ein pri megadim, that that's min haTorah, that we call, yeah, bishul Shabbos, shogeg, chayav. Go ahead, yeah. I understand. Ila gavar is not kli rishon mevashel; it's the opposite. I know. Go ask it. I ask it here. If you don't want to be gores what I said, fine. So you look at the next line. That's what you wanted? Oh, you want more than that? Okay, what do you want? Simple question. A person can take a kli rishon that can be 140 degrees, and that's considered kli rishon mevashel. He can take it 400 degrees; that's kli sheini, it's not mevashel. But it's 300 degrees much more hotter. How can you say kli sheini is not mevashel over there? Okay, so let's talk about all that. We're going to get to all that. That's part of the discussion, the science or the din. We're going to talk about it. Okay, continue, yeah. V'im neimar, no. Shneihem shavim, then it's good, right? It's only when they're both equal. So kli rishon is not do. Kli rishon... Okay. Vayin chavesdas next one, go ahead. Vayin chavesdas. Labeled story. He wants Chavas Daas, the label man. Take from the label, right? No, so the thing on the sides— Huh? No, really. Nobody ever says that. What? The... Okay, the point being, the point being is that the ladle, since it's not on the— so he learns that that becomes tefanos, not kli rishon. The water is kli rishon, but the tefanos are not kli rishon. What's the tefanos? Let's say he took with a cup from that kli rishon aleish. He learns that the tefanos— The walls of the pot? Yeah, yeah. Of the cup, of the second— of the cup that you took it with. Yeah. They don't have a din of kli rishon. The water is going to have a din of kli rishon, but not the walls. And therefore what? And therefore, al kli rishon eino mevashel, but that's tata'ah gavar. You would still have tata'ah gavar. That's the chiddush of the Chavas Daas. He's learning that the kli rishon is what you took from the kli rishon, shalah eish, and those walls are not going to be hot, right? And therefore it's really midin tata'ah gavar, not midin kli rishon. Meaning, what we think is kli rishon l'Chashabbos, according to the Chavas Daas, is tata'ah gavar. Meaning if I take that cup now that I took from that pot and I pour something else into it, only chayav because of tata'ah gavar, not because of kli rishon. Exactly. Chavas Daas, chiddush nifla, huh? You see that tata'ah gavar—either the water is doing the cooking or the walls are doing the cooking. Like you get to the Styrofoam cups, right? The Styrofoam cups are not getting— but they don't give heat. So where is really the bishul from the water that's in those cups that retain the heat, right, that down. It's nafka mina to the styrofoam cups. Styrofoam cups. Yeah, Rebelsky's busy with the— What does he say? He held that it could be kli rishon, the Styrofoam cups. Yeah, it retains the heat. It holds the heat. Okay. So, it doesn't help to put it on the other side? No, because l'choira he retains the heat, right? L'choira. He was busy with this. The metzius side. Yeah, but I'm talking about the metzius. But then you have the tatal gavra sugya. What do we hold? What do we hold? Side form is good, right? No. No, it's good. It's good. Yeah, all just cliches. Most people don't say. Yeah, yeah, that metzius. That's kabbalah. As long as we kabel the water in kli rishon, you're good. Okay, let's go weiter. It's kabbalah. Really, when you have the, what you call, the kli sharis. Kli sharis. That's really where we also, with bishul and cooking, the kli sharis. We kabel in a kli sharis, that's what it is. So as long as you have the word kabbalah, you're good to go. Okay, let's go weiter. Okay. V'im neimar — the machlokes, continue — v'im neimar... No? I'm sorry, no, we did that. Mai chavis dash, ayri b'kli shema kli rishon, shehatfanas eina din kli rishon, v'davka az amrinan machlokes Rav v'Shmuel. Mi'u, kanaal yesh loimar. With what we said above, we can have a very nice pshat. Kli rishon mevashel has to do with the metzius. So what happens if I gave b'shvicha achas, yeah, a lot of cold water?

Not gonna cook. That's a lot. Too much cold water. Too much cold water. ... If it's a din of tata gavar, if it's a din, shum kir, right? Chaivi, chaivi. You cooked the first drop, something, I don't know. First second, a drop, something. A few molecules you cooked, okay? Hach nira laniyas daiti, if you learn kli rishon, then the halacha would be... So what Shabbos? Could be Shabbos is not about tata gavar anymore. Could be Shabbos is about the ... of bishul. ... it's about... yeah, come. It's about what? About the... Okay, everybody have a nice day.