Eino Ben Yomo: Absorbed Taste, Nosen Taam Lifgam, and the 24-Hour Rule

Transcript

Yeah, sure. I'm not sure if we're gonna finish the whole terumos by Pesach. Maybe we can just pick up what's in the maaseh. Yeah, that's a very good idea. I'm with you. I'm with you. Yesodis. Yeah, ... but the yesodis. Let's go. Ready? So what's the first question? Every part that's not batel b'yomah chashiva teima l'gam. V'eino oseret, nikra batel b'yomah. So Rebbi wants to know why it says kol kedeirah, any pot. Or you say kedeirah? Kedeirah. What is kol any pot? Like, what do you mean? What else is there? I mean, a pot. It's a good question. Okay, next one, yeah. Oh, so I want to know when it says chashiv, what does he mean, chashiv? Considered? Yeah. And as opposed to why not say it is ta'am l'gam? Yeah. It's an extra word. And not even extra; it seems like chashiv, we consider it. What do you mean, we consider it nice and ta'am l'gam? What do you mean, it is. I don't know. That's the story of ta'am l'gam, no? Oh, so that's the diyuk. Maybe it isn't, but in halacha we consider it Talmud gam. Right? The fact that you say it's considered, considered Talmud gam, that itself is a raya, yeah, that it's not a regular story. Yeah. Chashiv Talmud gam, yeah, l'inyan dina, eino kein b'metzius, but it's not like that b'metzius. Okay. So I want to— you understand the question? It is, I don't know, or no, maybe not really or exactly, but in halacha it's considered. Why? Yesh lefaresh. Go ahead, next one. The Gilyon HaShas says the kol is not coming to exclude yayin nesach. Oh. Exclude? Yeah, lebar miklei yayin nesach. So how could be kol l'rabos is kol l'ma'ut? Well, he's probably learning kol l'ma'ut. Really, there's such a thing? Okay. So you see that the Gilyon HaShas is asking my question. I'm going to say it different pshat. Go ahead, yeah. Yesh lomar, yeah. Next, yeah. Yesh lomar, ayin Toras Chaim. U'visus Rishonim, shedafanot maspik nifgam ktzat, v'lo k'Rashi nifgam ktzat. Oh. So the Beis Yosef brings two shitos: shebitfanos maspik nifgam ktzat; you don't really need real nosen taam lifgam, okay? Dera'ah. Right, it says that—I'm sorry, when I said, the loi kara shenivkam, that it's really nifgam. The word tzas is a mistake. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, so here's the question. The question is—here's the question. The question is, so the Torahs Habayis is saying it's not really; it's only nifgam k'tzas. The Ra'ah says that it has to be nifgam legamrei. So if you learn like the Torahs Habayis, now you see why it's chashuv. Not really a nosein taam lifgam, but we call it nosein taam lifgam. Mayri, right? Pashut pshat. I think the Beis Yosef is going—he brings this Torahs Habayis, that's why he wants to say— Yeah, I mean, it's not really nosein taam lifgam, but in halacha we consider it a nosein taam lifgam. Beautiful, right? Good? Okay. Continue. When it says the—

Lechaber eina iseres. Eina iseres means it doesn't aser, but you can't go l'chatchila and cook in this. V'chein katav haMechaber, siman kuf chaf-bet, se'if bet. V'ulai. Shelama haMechaber eina pegumah legamrei, lachein l'chatchila lo. Okay. Hakointe mechaber eino pegumah legamrei. So maybe that's why it's not l'chatchila. The what? Even if it's more than 24 hours, it's not nifgam legamrei? It's not nifgam. No, but within 24 hours, right? So if it's not nifgam legamrei, now I understand why it's asur l'chatchila. That makes sense now, huh? To cook in it. I mean, because it's not really nifgam. If it's not nifgam, so that would be the reason to cook. U'lai mishum shehamechaber eina pegumah legamrei, lachein, maybe l'chatchila lo. That's the reason. Mihu ayin b'poskim. Shem yevashel. You see clearly that that's not the reason. The Acharonim say what's the real reason? It's a gezeirah, you might come to use a ben yomo, right? Gemara, no? It's a Gemara, right? So you might come to use a ben yomo, but the question is, but what is a ben yomo? And the answer is a ben yomo, right? Meaning, what would be the reason l'chatchila b'diavad that we don't want l'chatchila, because you might come to use a real ben yomo. But could be the whole ben yomo is only asur because the taam is there. Meaning like this, l'chat— again, let's concentrate. Let's say, oh, if you learn that the taam is not really there, the taam is not really there, but chashiv, whatever it is, so that's a good reason not to cook l'chatchila. That's a good reason not to cook l'chatchila. So where does the gezeira apply? The gezeira would apply because you might come to cook with a ben yomo. In a case of chashiv. We don't want l'chatchila by eino ben yomo. By eino ben yomo, we don't want l'chatchila. Why not? Because you might come to cook on a ben yomo. What's the reason for a ben yomo? If you learn that the whole ben yomo is only chashiv, so what's the gezeira? Because it's not really there. So it's a very far-fetched gezeira. But if you learn that the taam is there, so then it makes sense that we're afraid, takah you might come to cook with a ben yomo. Okay, let's continue. Miu ayin Tosfos Pesachim. Yeah. The mutar l'chatchila. The mutar l'chatchila. It's mutar l'chatchila watch. Go ahead. He held a major chiddush. If there's sixty כנגד the issur, then it's even mutar on this thing. It's mutar, yeah? Yeah. Sure. On a nicein taam lifgam, if you have sixty, it's mutar. We don't pasken like that, right? Yeah, but not for taam in a kli, which is nicein taam lifgam. Is this kind of what we spoke about yesterday? He's not doing it on purpose. It's within the same day, right? Right. So is there a real taam here? There could be, no? There could be. Yeah, what's the halacha? Okay, I'm sorry, I just had to eat a little protein to get myself up. I hate nothing since your fish yesterday, except for spices. All right, so let me...

Just wake up here. I just have egg whites. All right, you ready? All right, let's get to it. Nacha, one more time, okay? The question is, within 24 hours, we say it's not a nicee taam of gam. After 24 hours, it's a nicee taam of gam. Is it true? So we're saying that possibly not. Possibly after 24 hours, so that would be a reason why l'chatchila you shouldn't be cooking with this, right? Right. Correct? But for some reason, they came up with a gezeira that you might come with a ben yomo. Why do they need the gezeira? Why can't you just say it's not really lifgam? It's only b'di'eved, al chatchila. There's a shita that learns that if it's samach keneged, then you could do even l'chatchila. Why would that be mutar? And the answer is, ein mevatlin issur l'chatchila. Yeah, but I don't understand. If you hold that it's not here, why is that called ein mevatlin issur? It's not here. The issur is not here anymore. It's a simple question. If the issur is finished, then it's finished. Okay, let's continue. ... The mutar l'chatchila im yesh samach neged issur is bardahemshech. Go ahead. V'yesh l'hadun. ... Oh, so here's a simple question. I don't understand. What's the gezeira? Maybe you might come to use the ben yomo, right? So there's kasher. So maybe the vart is. So what's the answer? Just go kasher it, and that's all. Finished. So what happens if you can't kasher? What happens if it's something you can't kasher? Do we still say gezeirah ben yomo? Do we say all this? או כבולעו כך פולטו, right? So lefi zeh, yesh ladon b'kli cheres, ulai yesh l'hatir d'havi k'di'eved, u'farnech u'kuvza. So let's see the Pischei Teshuvah. Go ahead, read it in the beginning of kuf chaf beis. Sorry. Go ahead, kuf chaf beis, yeah, go ahead. ... יעקב ... ... בשם חכמי ... ... זה דווקא בכלים ... ... אבל ... זה צריך שבירה ... ... ומתירין לך הכלים לאחר שיהיה ... ... להשיג על זה ... ...

Okay, so kli chel, let's say a pipe. You have all these plates, right? So the halacha is, he says some say that after 24 hours, it's mutar, because you can't kasher it. No, that's it. You can never kasher it, really, right? So there's not much you can do. So it would be l'chatchila mutar to use it after 24 hours. I'm reading chiddush. And what do we pasken like? We don't. So could be that's what the Mechaber means, kol. Kol means even kli cheres. It is on the sheet, sure. V'hanach l'gabei piskei teshuva, reish siman kuf chaf-beis, ma'minchas Yaakov b'shem gadol echad, v'hu loi talui, hei marmina she'ben yomo, havei ta'am pagum k'tzas. V'af al pi kein asur, mishum davar sheyesh lo matirin l'machar, אי על ידי הגעלה. Okay. Davar sheyesh lo matirin l'machar, אי על ידי הגעלה. So maybe it's talui if you hold ben yomo is ta'am pagum k'tzas, af al pi kein asur, mishum davar sheyesh lo matirin. We'll say that's why it's aser, because you know what? Wait till 24 hours, and it'll be mutar. But if you hold that it's pagum, pagum, so what does it have to do with waiting till tomorrow? It's pagum. It's finished. It's no good. So then, אי בזוי, we don't care. The rule is 24 hours. ובזה יש לומר, לשון המחבר — that's what the Mechaber means: כל קדרה לעשותי כלי חרס, לומר שרק מותר לאחר מעת לעת, ודלא כהגהה שבפסקי... Okay, so let's make a quick chazara. All right, you ready? Very simple. Yeah, you with me? Okay. You have a plate that's within 24 hours, so that's no good. That's notein taam lifgam, and the diuk that we made was chashiv notein taam lifgam. Why is it called chashiv? Because it's not really taam lifgam, but in halacha we take on it's taam lifgam. Now what's the reason for this halacha? Why would we say that? Why is the taam from a keli different if it's not really taam lifgam? That's really the question. Bishlama if you learn it's really taam lifgam, okay, we're good. But if you learn it's not really taam lifgam, why is it mutar? That's the question. The second point is, it's not lechatchila to use it after 24 hours. Why not? And the answer is because it's not really lifgam. It's just not true, right? So could be it's only b'di'eved, not lechatchila. Now, if you have a kli cheres, we'll say it's mutar. I don't see it, but if you hold that the tam is there, why would it be mutar? I mean, how could there be a lechatchila b'di'eved? What is that all about? Either it has or it doesn't have. And is that the machlokes, a little bit and a lot, it has or it doesn't? Is that the whole shaila? Is that the discussion here? The mechaber, kol, kol kedeira maybe is to tell me even this, right? Okay. A mechaber mevuar she'be'inan me'et le'et, okay? Kagon shasri, u'd'lo kiRashi, that holds linas layla. It's good to what? Overnight. So you know this, right? You heard about this, right? Okay. Yesh l'ayin. So the question is, are they arguing in a metzius? One says that it goes away after 24 hours, and one says it goes away after the night. What happens if the night is two hours? Yeah. What happens if it's a smaller night? 24 hours, you could say, is a number, a standard. How could linas layla, when there's something spooky about the night that takes out the tam of the... huh? Kibud... somebody to... no?

Yeah? Okay. V'ayim mechabes. Right, right. There you go. See? Let's go. V'ayim mechabesiv zayin, shemitztaref daas Rashi l'kulah. Yeah. Could you use this Rashi as a tziruf l'kulah? The 24 hours didn't pass yet, but I need the pot. Something, whatever, I don't know, with some other tziruf. So you look at se'if zayin, it says clearly you could use the linas halaylah b'di'eved, right? You could use it. So I don't understand. Either you hold it is or it is. If you hold it takes 24 hours, how could this be a tziruf? But just because Rashi said so? Okay, you know what? Everything is a game of numbers. Oh, you can mitztaref Rashi. I don't understand. If you don't hold like that, you hold it's 24 hours. Okay. V'im b'metzius lo pagim, eich soimech haRashi? It's a mighty good question, no? Menirah. Chashiv nosin taam lifgam. It's about halacha. It's not about a metzius. Yeah. And the question is, the question is, it's nosin taam lifgam, when did they matir within? And it's about the gezeirah that you might come to use it. And the answer is, it's all about they assered it. And the question is, did they asser it after 24 hours? Or maybe they said the next day it's okay because it's enough of a hefsek. It's not a metziusdik shaylah. With this, I'm going to explain, u'vzei yisba'er. Let's see the next part of the thing. That's right, the whole thing doesn't make sense. If you hold it's there, it's there, so what is the discussion about? Use Rashi, but the... I don't... The whole thing doesn't make sense. And the answer is, it's not really what the sugya is. You know, it's taste in walls, all right? And the question is, what do you do when there's taste in walls? The answer is, it's in the wall. It's pagum. It's not real. So the chachamim came and said, tomorrow, don't use it today. So maybe linas halayla is already b'di'eved, tomorrow. B'di'eved, we can call linas halayla tomorrow. V'zeh yisba'er, with this we can read the Mechaber. Read the Mechaber now well. Read it. חשיב טעם לפגם ואין אוסר. ונקרא בדיעבד כל זמן ששתהה מעת לעת אחר שנתבשל באיסור, כיון שאמר לילה מקרי לעת, אחר שנתבשל באיסור אין נקרא בדיעבד. אם בישל בה כשאינו בדיעבד, תבשיל מותר, ואף נותן טעם לפגם, והוא שתהיה מודחת, שלא יהיה שומן על פניה, שאם לא הייתה אסור, אוסר, הרי היא כתיכה איסור שלא נפגמה. ויש מתירין אפילו בישל בה קודם... כיון שעבר עליה מעת לעת, האיסור אינו נקרא... So, once it's 24 hours, it's no longer considered nikras haissur. Yes, I don't understand. But you just said it. He's repeating himself. I don't understand. He says clearly it's only within 24 hours. After 24 hours, eina nikras haissur. What are you talking about? You just said that. What's the answer? The answer is in the word haissur. Haissur, eina nikras. Eina nikras. It's not about the 24 hours for the taam. The issur is today, not tomorrow. I don't understand how it's 24 hours. Okay, so let me tell you. I hold this is one of the most emes kedushim I ever told. What is taam in a keli? Now, you have taam and keli that mashbiach. Most of the time, taam and keli is gone. It's not even there. You cook rice in a fleishig...

You're not gonna taste the clean. You're not gonna taste the difference. The question, what is that real? You know, what is reiach? What is ta'am in walls? And that's a good question, you know, blius. How did Rav Elyashiv say, you can't sell blius; they don't exist. Pesach, blius. You're selling blius? Who's buying? There's nothing there. Now, of course, if it's such keilim that give off cherry flavor in the whiskey, okay, I'm not talking about that. So the question becomes, you hear the question? The question becomes, the question becomes, how do you look? So some say that after 24 hours, it's finished. All 24 hours, magic. Not magic, it's gone, whatever. Gamrei is garbage. Others say no, even after 24 hours, nifgam k'tzas. So why is it mutar if it's nifgam k'tzas? That's the question. Why? Since when is nifgam k'tzas mutar? Tell me when nifgam k'tzas. Question number two, right? What's question number two? Right? L'chatchila b'di'eved. If you hold that it's nifgam, so let it be mutar. Teretz is gezeirah bas yoma. Maybe not. Maybe because there's still ta'am. You just told me that nifgam k'tzas is good enough, right? Question number three. There's sixty, right? So what's the ma'alah? I ain't mevatel the issur l'chatchilah. Well, what's the ma'alah of sixty? What is that? So the question also is, is it l'chatchilah, b'di'eved? So what do you do with kli cheres? No, that's mutar. That might be mutar because you have no choice. But if you hold this issur, so what do you mean you have no choice? What is that? How could it be a l'chatchilah b'di'eved? Question number four, yeah. You could be mitztaref the sheetah of overnight that it's good enough. I don't see it. If you hold it, if you hold it, it takes twenty-four hours, then it takes twenty-four hours. And the real teretz says we're not polet ta'am. So what's the din that the chachamim said when there's issur in it, you can't cook it in that day. Once the issur is gone—question is, what's called issur gone? The next day? Yeah, maybe that's when the issur is—it was yesterday, it's not today anymore. But that could be a matter of seconds rather than some cases. And that's what I'm trying to tell you, because it's not about the time elapsed. It's a din of bo'i bayom. Ben yomo might be, might be more about the issur shebayom. Huh? Why? I'll tell you very simple. Is ta'am d'Oraisa or d'Rabbanan? Huh? Ta'am is ke'ikar, because we— But what happens if the ta'am is not mishabe'ach? Huh? Remember we said that there's two types of nice tavl of gav, of gav mamish, or just not tam that's mishabeach. So it's תלוי in the shailah, right? Maybe the tam that's not mishabeach is nothing. The fact that it's mishabeach, that's called tam. If it's not mishabeach, then it's nothing. Tam which is not mishabeach could be nothing, but the Chachamim said, but we don't want that tam because there's tam issur here, by yayin. The minute that issur becomes a little pagum, we're good. So where is the cutoff? It's about pagum or not pagum? No, it's by yayin we don't want it. And that's what he means, ha'issur, the issur is not by yayin. That's why the mechaber ends this point. Why do I need tam? Why can't I just put soap and say it's pagum? You could. Many hold like that. If I soap something, then there's no sugya anymore. So why taka not? Because that's what the Chachamim said, that you can't use a ben yomo. Why don't they just wash it?

So even though technically this is not there. That's right. It's still there because of the issur. Because the issur, whatever it is, the Chacham said issur was here today, don't use it. That's why it's a din of lechatchila b'diavad. And that's why if I come and I'm mevatel b'shishim, it'll be mutar tomorrow. Why even lechatchila? Because the issur is not there. It's not that I took an issur, I was mevatel. There's no issur that the Chacham's gezeirah applies. Let's see the last line. Let's see the last line. Yeah. ... shayach lebitul. ... Once it's not there because it's mevutal, so we're not going to say the issur is there. Because if it's about taam, what's the difference if it's sixty or not sixty? What's the difference? Okay, so let's do it one more time, five minutes, all right? I'm a little bit tired, and therefore I couldn't give it to you with full vigor. I have to eat something. I have to go do something. Okay, so let's start again. Ready? One more time. Now you're going to say the shiur. Start from the beginning, one by one, okay? Start. One-one. And let's—I'm going to listen to the way you guys argue it out. Go ahead, start. No, no, start, start. Come on, let's go. Let's do this right. Come on, let's go. Start from the mechaber, start. The mechaber says, kol... Oh. Right, kol, what is it coming to include? So you put that good, write it in. Ayin. What'd you tell me? Gilyon who? Gilyon Marsha, she'ama bizeh. Gilyon Marsha, she'ama bizeh, right? So read me the Gilyon Marsha. He says it has to do with kol is lafuke, not lerabuye, but lafuke. Lafuke what? Yayin nesekh. So you see I was right. This Ashkenazi learned good, good mechaber. I'm learning it good. You see the Gilyon Marsha is bothered by this question. What's kol? What, maybe kedeirah? Include, exclude something, something, right? It's not stam a drashah, a vertel. You see he's trying to say something, that all kelim it implies. Okay, go ahead. Notice he didn't say it is or it isn't, tam lifgam. He just said chashiv. Oh, what do you mean chashiv? So it's not a metziusdik question, it's a halachah. Good deal? Good? Beautiful, right? What does that mean? Go ahead. Yesh lomar, ayin Toras Habayis, right? Because he says it could be... Why? It's not really. In halachah we call it an eis tam lifgam. It's not really, but we consider it like that, no? Beautiful, right? So far we're saying good, right? Next one, go ahead. Oh, al lechatchilah lo. Why? If it happened, you can't say it's asur. Why don't you go—it's gone, it's gone, finished. And the answer is, it's not really gone. That question is—why can we cook something eino ben yomo? Right? And the answer is because the Gemara made a gezeirah, atu venyon. Right, but why could you just say simply because it's gone? Obviously the Gemara is saying it's not gone. Huh? Oh, even with the answer, the Gemara would have said it. So that's what I'm trying to tell you. The Gemara didn't say that. The Gemara didn't say, no, the opposite. The Gemara should have said it's not gone. You know why you can't cook l'chatchila? Because it's still there after 24 hours. That's what I'm saying. Why didn't the Gemara say that? That's my question. That's what I'm trying to say. And the answer is? Okay. V'ulai, yeah. I would have said that the reason why you can't cook is because it's still there a little bit, right? It didn't go away completely after 24 hours, but that's not what the pasuk can say. That's not what it says. It says that the reason is because of gezeirah, shema yevashel. So what's the pshat? It's a good question, huh? Mi'ayin Teisvis, Pesachim, daf lamed, de'mutar — I have to change the word l'chatchila, yeah — de'mutar l'chatchila im yesh samach neged ha'issur. Okay, miisba'er behemshech. So what does that mean? Teisvis says, de'mutar l'chatchila im yesh samach neged ha'issur.

That it's mutar. Why is it mutar? אי מבטל מיסל לכתחילה? Right? Kasha. למה נתיר? Right? הלא אי מבטלים איסור לכתחילה. Okay, continue. ויש לדון, is any part of this about you could fix it? That's why they asser it. Kashya it, don't use it. And if once I happened, it happened, I can't fix it, right? Is that the issue? So then a bazoi would come out, where you can't fix it, then the Noda BiYehuda would be mutar even l'chatchila, right? So let's see. ... המנחת יעקב, ובשם גדול אחד. Huh? It's part of the conversation. You see from the Minchas Yaakov that since you can't fix it, so it becomes mutar. And that's really what he means, right? Since you can't fix it, then it's like b'diavad. That's what he means. You can't fix it. Yeah, that's what he's saying, right? That's what he means, right? Oh, b'zeh shloima, it's coming to ... maybe. That's the pshat. Kolel means it's all kelim, even kli cheres. We're going to have after the 24 hours only b'diavad. Not like the ... Beautiful, good, beautiful, right? So far, so good. Mechaber. Why are we using Rashi? So he doesn't pasken like Rashi. In siman zayin, Rabbi said he uses ... He's mitztaref Rashi, so why is he mitztaref Rashi? That was the second. That was the third question. Right, this kashya: why is he mitztaref Rashi? We're not holding there yet. No. Now, we're not holding there. But chamur, you need meis leis, right? Not like Rashi. Right. Yesh la'ayin, ha'im cholkin b'metzius? Is it a metziusdik question? Yeah. V'im b'metzius lo פליגי, איך סומך על Rashi? Nirah shezeh gezeirah ba'issur. I think that the real story over here is, wherever you have issur, then the halacha becomes what? Wherever you have an issur, by Yomim it remains asur. After 24 hours, chashiv, we'll take away the issur because it's nosein ta'am lifgam. So what is it? Because the issur already is not b'tochfus; we leave it. We're going to be matir this issur tomorrow because l'maaseh it's nifgam ktzas. Today? Tomorrow. Since tomorrow it's nifgam ktzas, all right? Okay. What we're going to do is we're going to allow. Okay, continue, yeah. That's what he means, issur eino nikra... Oh, that's what he means, the Mechaber, that the issur is not a ben yomo. What do you mean the issur is not a ben yomo? Don't talk about the ta'am; the ta'am is gone after 24 hours. Not about the ta'am, the issur. The issur by Yom is asur. But if it's eino ben yomo, we'll shtel tzu and say, you know what, let's be matir this issur because it's pogem a little bit, yeah. What would be the nafkamina in this? What would be the nafkamina l'maaseh, yeah? So first of all, the סמך makes sense, right? U'lefi zeh, yesh l'va'ayeshi ... Yosef in Tosfos, that what? I am mevatel mitzvas lechatchila. That's not the point. The point is, once the issur is not here— If there's no issur, you're mevatel. The problem is the issur became b'shishim. There's no issur. There is no issur. If Rebbe says, if we learn ... That's what I'm trying to tell you. There's no issur. Yeah, there's no issur. So you're not coming up and mevatel issur lechatchila. That's right. Okay, you got it? Okay, we'll stop over here. You got it, you klar? Yeah. So what's the ... you guys—