Hilchos Vestos: Poked Es Ishto Before Travel, Onah, and Samuch LaVeses

Transcript

Now recording. The Lashon says, l'derech. If somebody wants to go out, l'derech, to a way. So of course the first diyuk is, harotzeh. Does rotzeh mean want, or does rotzeh mean he has to, and that's why it's called rotzeh, because he wants to do what he has to do? So, harotzeh latzeis l'derech. If somebody wants to go out on the way. Okay, sha, please. It's not a kindergarten here. You have to do this anyway, so do it. Let's go. Harotzeh latzeis l'derech. If somebody wants to go out, l'derech. Harotzeh. Rotzeh, peirush, zeh dvar reshus. Does rotzeh mean vacation? And it's not even dvar reshus; it could be less than dvar reshus. Maybe rotzeh k'minah l'tayel, k'ilu. It doesn't mean that it's something that it's good for him to do. And then even in chayav la'asot, there's gedarim, there's levels. It doesn't say. All it says is, harotzeh latzeis l'derech. So you're asking why didn't it say tzarich? If ha-tzarich, is it something which is chayav, hayotzei l'derech? The word rotzeh is chidush, to tell me that he wants. Here, the question is what's called want. So we have to see in the poskim what's called want. Once we know the ikar halacha, we'll understand maybe the chiluk. In the rights. If we understand properly what the din is, then we'll understand the rights. Latzeis l'derech, to go on the road. Now, he wants to go on the road. Road to what? What kind of a road is this? What does it say? He wants to go around the block? Does he want to go ... to the park? What derech are you referring to? And how long and how big is the derech? It doesn't say. Tzarich lifkod ishto. He has to be pokeid ishto. Tzarich lifkod ishto. Now, chayav tzarich, is there chilukim in the word chayav? Is it like chiyuv ona, the word ona is usually the word chayav, he's chayav. Interesting lashon, tzarich lifkod. Is it less than chayav? Is that what you mean? It's like a little bit less? Or it's just maybe tzarich lifkod ishto, afilu סמוך לווסתה. As if you're telling me the chiddush is chayav lifkod ishto, that he has to be with his wife, so then he should say chayav lifkod ishto. But if you mean to say that he has to do it even if so, then the word tzarich makes more sense, right? Rafi, dikduk, come. Rafi's my dikduk man. He knows how I like to learn. I like to learn what it says, the text. If you mean chayav, so then the halacha is that you're chayav to do this, so then it's chayav. But if you mean to say afilu סמוך לווסתה, then it's actually a continuation, that you don't say chayav, you say tzarich afilu, you have to do it even if it's סמוך לווסתה. So then the chiddush that the Shulchan Aruch comes out to be, not so much that he's chayav lefoikta, but rather that even tzarich levasta, even the tzarich levasta becomes the chiddush. There's a big nafka mina in what I'm saying. I'm playing a little bit of a... yes. Harotzeh, ma kavanah b'rotzeh? Latzeis... ma kavanah... derech. Eizeh derech? Tzarich. If you mean chayav, you mean chiyuv ones, that's what you mean? So you should have said chayav lifkod es ishto. I even think that's the lashon of the Gemara, if I'm not mistaken. I think the actual lashon of the Gemara is that. Where does this come from? Where does this come from? Harotzeh, tes. Harotzeh, tes, tes. Yeah, tes zayin here. Yevamos daf samech beis. Could you read the Gemara? Al kol panim, if you mean chayav, you should say chayav. Say the word chayav. Unless you mean the continuation. If you mean the continuation, afilu סמוך לווסת, then it's a good word. You're saying, tzarich to do this even though it's סמוך לווסת. The chiddush is not that there's a chiyuv; the chiddush is a chiyuv ones, which we'll soon learn that it's possible.

That there is. It's possible that there is. You know what? Maybe I'll throw out a little bit more information, you'll understand what I want. Let me clarify a shayla. Let me ask you a question. We'll soon learn that there's a hishtoikus. Hishtoikus. When someone leaves between the husband and the wife, there's a hishtoikus. Then whenever there's a hishtoikus, then it becomes a chiyuv ona. So then it becomes a chiddush that there's chiyuv anyway, alts the chiyuv. There's a special chiyuv ona. O dilma, or maybe we could come and say that the chiddush is not so much the chiyuv ona, but the heter of afilu סמוך לווסת, that the Chazal went out of their way. What's the lashon? Tzarich chayiv. Chayiv. I knew that the lashon in the Gemara was chayiv. Chayiv adam lifkod es ishto. בשעה שהוא יוצא. בשעה שהוא יוצא, כבודו. No? You like it? You like it? You like the lashon of the Gemara? You know what I learned pshat? I'll tell you how I learned pshat, and everything makes a lot of sense. This Gemara is teaching me the chiyuv ona. This Shulchan Aruch in veses is not teaching us the chiyuv ona. It's teaching us the heter veses. You like it, Rafi? It's emes la'amito. I'm saying good. I'm saying really good pshat. You hear it? What? You're not maskim? You liked it. I don't know. I don't think the Shevet Halevi says it, but he doesn't say it. He doesn't say it. What I'm saying is like this: it's an interesting thing that in the Gemara the lashon is chayiv. The Ran, hamechaber, moreh hamechaber says, tzarich. So you can come and say, lav davka, davka, ken davka. Let me tell you, I think it's davka. He's quoting a Gemara. Why would he quote the Gemara properly? So you don't want to say that his chiddush is... His chiddush is d'afilu samuch. Afilu, yeah, samuch leves. That's the tzarich afilu. That chiyuv that the Gemara talks about is needed to be done, to be fulfilled, afilu samuch, which means that there's a chiddush that they were matir the veset. Yeah, they were matir the veset for this chiyuv onah. Yeah, because it still uses the same lashon of the Gemara and still talking about chiddush. You don't understand, because he's not interested in telling you. That's not the point. The point is not that he's chayiv. The point is tzarich to do this even though samuch leves. I'll soon show you the nafka minas. The nafka is tremendous nafka mina. Reishis kol, reishis kol. If the taich is that they were matir the veset, they were matir the veset, they were matir the veset, even though, even though that there's a veset, they were matir it because haro'eh lotza derech, there's a chiyuv onah. So is the taich that because there's a chiyuv onah, that's the heter of the veset? Mimeila, wherever there is another chiyuv onah, and hachanami, we're matir the veset. Is it the chiyuv onah that's matir the veset? Is that the pshat, the chiyuv onah? In other words like this: there is a chiyuv onah. Tzarich latzeis, tzarich lifkod ishto. Now whenever there's a halacha, oina, they were matir the vest. Oy, the pshat is there's a special heter that since some of the vest is only mid'rabbanan, b'yotzei l'derech they were matir it. Is it taluy in the chiyuv lifkod es ishto because there's a chiyuv? Whenever there is a chiyuv, so the chiyuv oina pushes off the chash veses only d'rabbanan. Let me repeat it one more time, because you should know that the key to the whole... No, we hold it's all d'rabbanan. We hold veses d'rabbanan, and we pasken on veses d'rabbanan. What do we pasken? So that's what I'm trying to explain. Again, I want you to understand that the whole seif in this Shulchan Aruch, all the poskim will become clear on this statement. Once you know this kav, then that's it. You're ready to swim right through the whole seif, okay, with all the dinim. Is the taich that they gave a special heter b'yotzei l'derech, or chayiv adam, there is a chiyuv oina, and whenever there's a chiyuv oina, Chazal said vestes is not negeia. Vestes is derabbanan, and not b'makom...

Which means the din derabbanan is not going to push off the chiyuv, let's say, d'Oraisa of oina. Or the pshat is that the chachamim did not gozer l'chatchila; there, oina in these cases. One anafka mina, hata'anafka mina. What happens if the oina—what happens if there's a different chiyuv oina for different... I know, so I should say it because the Kesubah says it. That's what I'm telling you. If you know clearly the halacha, you'll understand the nafka minas. There's tremendous nafka minas. What about kalah? If the kalah, the night of chuppah becomes that Yom vest. Yeah, the piskei teshuvos, Chavos Yair, they talk about these things. Okay, I'll ask you another question. What happens if there's—maybe you'll say they're not gozer there also. Maybe not, I don't know, but maybe, yeah. How's it going to be a nafka mina? That's right, so I'm learning with you. Why does it say it that way? Why is it—why is a kalah b'chuppah any different? It's a great question. I don't know, but I mean, I do know. I do know, but I'm starting to learn with you that that's the sugya. Let me tell you, I'm not holding—I'm first holding by understanding yotza l'derech. It doesn't talk about chiyuv oina. It doesn't say it that way. You know, it doesn't say chayav adam... there's a chiyuv oina, and therefore, for some reason he says it different. Tzarich lifgoa, afilu סמוך לוסת. It comes from a different angle, like it comes from the heter of the veses. So I want to know, are we starting because of the chiyuv onah, or there's a certain heter involved? I'll tell you another nafka mina. Let's say a woman has a shteykelus, right? So every time she has a shteykelus, are you chayiv? Yeah, it's your chiyuv onah, right? It's your chiyuv onah. So does that apply every time, maybe? Let's say a woman in the niddah vest, she has shteykelus. What are you going to do? So maybe then it's mutar, right? It's a very big nafka mina. Or the pshat is it's a special din yotza l'derech. And I'll tell you why I'm saying this, because what happens when she comes back? We'll soon learn there's shteykelus there also. But for some reason the Shulchan Aruch doesn't say it. It only says hayotza l'derech, unless we measure the shteykelus. Is that what it is? Measure the shteykelus. There's more, there's less. I don't know. When someone comes back, it's the same thing. I don't know, what's leaving or coming, it's still a machlokes. There's levels in a shteykelus? I don't know. Okay, let's learn a little further. Tzarich lifkod ishto afilu סמוך לווסתה. Yeah, סמוך לווסתה means that she has a certain time. We've been this one, no? We're going to learn, the Shach and the Taz discuss what is סמוך לווסתה means. This we're going to learn. We're going to learn. Okay, weiter. Okay, so it says, הגה, Rama, ואפילו בתשמיש שרי, and even בתשמיש is mutar. Now the Mechaber argues on this; it's not clear here. Harei, ... lifkot ishto. I don't know what lifkot means. That's what I'm saying. I don't know. You have to know what does the word lifkot mean, and this now would be dependent if the Rama is cholek. You'll say the shiur. Haga: v'afilu b'tashmish, shari. So sometimes we can learn the Rama as being matir, or it could be he's being cholek. We're gonna have to see in the poskim: is the Rama matir or is the Rama cholek? Afilu b'tashmish, shari, and even in tashmish it's mutar. Now what's the chiddush? The chiddush is that סמוך לווסתה, the chashash is she might see her vest. And af al pi kein, we're not choshesh and we're matir what? We're matir the bi'ah, the ishus itself, because bishleima the kreivus, not such a big chiddush, you stop. There'll be a problem, you'll stop. U'mikol makom, hamachmir shelo lifkot rak b'divrei ritzui, tavoi alav bracha. What about she? When she's makpid? I don't know, it's interesting. I read the tzaddik. Oy, the tzaddik, tavoi alav bracha. Does she have a say in this? Does it have anything to do with her? I don't know, it's interesting. No, I'm saying, what's— you'll look at the Shulchan Aruch, it's like a one-sided thing. He has a chiyuv, and if he does it this way, it's good enough. Tavoi alav bracha. Unless maybe that's all she needs.

Maybe a b'diavad woman, that's all they really need, so therefore you should do it that way. You have to know the halacha a little bit better, and then, l'chatchila, it's not enough. She doesn't want that. U'kvar nisba'er, d'chol minei kurva v'ahava, shari. Kol minei kurva. Now, what are the two leshonos? Kurva v'ahava. So I think kurva is ma'aseh and ahava is in the dibur. Kurva is in ma'aseh, and ahava is in dibur. That's why I always understood this halacha, okay? Shari, milvad. U'kvar nisba'er, d'chol minei kurva v'ahava shari, milvad tashmish. So what is he trying to say? And therefore, anyway it's mutar? What does he want? What is he trying to bring out? U'kvar nisba'er that it's mutar. So it's anyway mutar, so therefore it's tavo lo bracha if you only do it that way? Or he meant to say was, u'kvar nisba'er that this beitzim is not an issur. So if I need a heter, the heter has to be for what? For the tashmish itself. What does he want? He's trying to say, u'kvar nisba'er, the tavo lo bracha, or the u'kvar nisba'er why? B'tashmish mutar. Huh? Maybe he's saying that's the ikar pekidah. No, I'm saying the tavo lo bracha. That's what I'm trying to tell you. He's explaining either the tavo lo bracha, that the reason, because u'kvar nisba'er that that beitzim is mutar, so if you do it this way, tavo lo bracha. Or he's trying to go back to the heter of the tashmish, because otherwise there's no svara. Well, I think the poskim discuss it, that this u'kvar nisba'er is not clear. What is he trying to explain? The halacha of tavo lo bracha? Or he's trying to go back to explain... The tashpis mutar. Now, v'im holech l'dvar mitzvah, ooh, what happens if he's going for dvar mitzvah? What's called a dvar mitzvah? Very big issue, because what one person's aveirah is another person's mitzvah. Tell me, going for business is called a dvar mitzvah? Yeah, depends on the business. Yeah, how do you know? How do you know? Business. Someone has to meet Mrs. so-and-so because he has to take her out to lunch because this is going to bring him a business deal. Is that called dvar mitzvah? I don't know. I call that a dvar aveirah. My books it's called a dvar aveirah. What do you call a dvar mitzvah? I don't know. It's very, very, very... You know, the Gemara calls dvar mitzvah, holech l'kabel rabbo. I don't know. Maybe that's called a dvar mitzvah. Maybe he has to go to his rebbe's bar mitzvah, the son of the bar mitzvah of his rebbe. What? The bar mitzvah. Maybe. What's called a dvar mitzvah? Not clear, not clear. So you know that we have a lot to talk about. How do you magdir dvar mitzvah? What's called dvar mitzvah? You know, parnassah is called a dvar mitzvah b'derech klal, you know that. Who says? He says. Not that way here. Who says that? Who says? He says, ketav habach, I guess Eliyah Rabbah. ... dvar mitzvah, hainu l'inyan shelo gazru bo l'gabei haflagah b'sfinah, erev Shabbos, yesh bo srach mitzvah, mashenkein l'inyan she'ein lo chashivah. Anybody cholek on it? And he says, tarat habayis also says that. However, I bet you we'll collect tzedakah. You know that there'll be big issues. I was cholek originally until I saw that no one else takes my side. Oh, you guys were fighting about this already? I was fighting with him. I wanted to say, when a guy goes on a business trip for two weeks in China, there's hishtokekut, and there might be inyan of... and it's called a dvar mitzvah. And of course, parnassah for the family. Why shouldn't that be dvar mitzvah? I want you to know that we're going to have to discuss this, because be'etzem most poskim hold that it is a chiluk dvar mitzvah. It is not. It is. It is, even over here. We’re going to discuss it, but just know that the word is dvar mitzvah. No, they said there’s only two things you can leave your Eretz Yisrael for, no? Parnassah, and… That’s right, that’s right. Why? Because it’s called dvar mitzvah. We’re going to get to it. We’re going to get to it. Now. Why are you sleeping? Rebbe. Why are you sleeping? I’m jealous of you. It’s not right. You’re making me jealous. I wish I could be sleeping. Or maybe I am sleeping. You know, the truth is I don’t really know. Okay, yeah? He brings you that somebody’s govet tzedakah for a yeshiva, but his whole kavanah is just for his parnassah, then it’s also not. Also not. We have to discuss this. This is all, like I said, I’m learning the meantime through the Shulchan Aruch. We’re going to soon see the nafka mina l’halachah. Okay. בקיצור, אם הוילך לדבר מצוה, אין צריך לפקוד אשתו.

Let me ask you a question. Ein tzarich lifkod ishto klal? Ein tzarich lifkod ishto, yisom chaluvesta? Is he referring to, since it's samuch l'vestah, he still has to do it? Maybe when you offer a mitzvah, you don't have to. But maybe, who says that you're bichlal patur? Pashut you're bichlal patur. Pashut you're bichlal patur. But the way he writes it, it's like, no, it's like somewhere in the... you're talking about vestes, and then all of a sudden in the middle of vestes you ran in with this new thing now. I mean, we're talking about derech chiyuv. Remember I told you, is this about derech chiyuv or is this about the heter vestes? Okay, al kol panim, im holech l'dvar mitzvah, ein tzarich lifkod ishto. Now, when he says ein tzarich lifkod ishto, does he mean legamrei, or does he mean even b'derech ritzui? Maybe he's talking about tashmish. Right, because it tires you out. Maybe b'derech ritzui he's still have to do it. Maybe b'derech ritzui he's still have to do it. Okay, we'll soon see. V'yesh omrim, im adam rotzeh leilech l'derech, v'ishto nidah, v'titboel toch ona achas, tzarich l'hamtin. He has to wait. Meaning he has mechuyav to stay home. He can't leave. If she has to go to the mikvah, within 24 hours you can't. Who said 24 hours? 12 hours, let's say. Ona achas. 12 hours, okay, sorry, ona achas. Okay, but before you kasha, let's just see what it says. Now, v'yesh omrim means there's a machlokes in that. So what are they arguing exactly? What exactly is the machlokes? I mean, why? I mean, it makes sense, no? If you owe it to your wife, could you imagine, could you imagine you owe a guy a hundred dollars, and the day before you set up a business trip. Be here. Who told you not to be here? Right, right, right to travel derech. Right to leilech l'derech. Right to leilech l'derech. He wants. Is it the have to or the must? The want to. So within 12 hours, he owes it to your wife. So then what's the other tzad? I mean, I'm not really sure I understand the other tzad. So bishleima, you learn that the Shulchan Aruch is about a heter in this vestus, right? It's more about the heter vestus and the chiyuvim. So then you can come and say, araysa, the heter, right? Araysa, the heter. Again, let's hear the kasha. I want to see over the kasha one more time. I mean, if you owe somebody something, could you just say, I want to go traveling today? You owe it to your wife. What's your shayla exactly? And why is it only onahas? I mean, honestly, if you owe somebody money, he's supposed to pay him at 12 o'clock Tuesday, so you're allowed to take a trip a week before so you're not there, so when the guy comes, rings the bell, sorry, not home. I'm not really sure you can do that. The davar mechayev is mitzvas onah. There's no mitzvas onah when she's a niddah. The chiddush is, if it's toleh on one, you could stretch, really stretch, just to cover that one. That's it. More than that, you know what? You should never. I mean, I agree with you, but I don't really agree with you. I mean, I agree with you. That's what it says here, but isn't it weird? I mean, it's a weird thing to say. If you have a chiyuv onah... maybe the twelve hours... your chiyuv onah is not... which the nida, then it becomes like, you know, like, how do you say, like misa sabal, you know? It's a hafka'ah, and the chiyuv onah becomes machmas a nida. You're saying lomdushe Torah, you know, it's weird stuff. You don't see you're saying weird lomdushe Torah. What should it be? What should he do? What should you do? You don't make trips when your wife is clean. I don't יודע. She's not clean yet, though. But you know she's maybe clean. You know she's going to make it Tuesday night, so what, do you make a trip Monday night? You know what? So maybe we should have a trip a week before also. A week from now she has to go to the mikvah, so maybe he should stay here. That's right. That's right. That's right. If you owe— maybe I'll wait till she's... You know what? Don't show up at your wedding. You know, I have a good idea. You're having a wedding? Don't show up. You're not responsible. You went a week early. It's not a bad idea. Don't show up at your wedding. What's the big deal? Everything about nowadays? About any days. Halacha l'maaseh, you plan a trip, right? Don't plan the trip. How does that— you buy a ticket a month or two before your trip. You're not supposed— how are you supposed to know it's going to be in a month or two from now? I'm not— if you have to buy a ticket tomorrow, you have to buy within 24 hours, and it's not even chiyuv. We're not talking about a chiyuv. It's...

You want to. If you owe it, you owe it. I don't understand. Either you owe it or you don't owe it. This isn't ... It's mashma. ... nobody goes a day before. Every normal guy plans a month. He's not normal. He doesn't want to be normal. Don't say he's chayiv. We're not talking about normal. He wants to go to his rebbe. It says dvar mitzvah. Let's go to his rebbe's mitzvah. If you owe somebody something, what does toich oino mean? What does it mean, toich oino? Unless there's a chiddush here. I'm just thinking of an interesting chiddush. Toich oino is called shas, and therefore it's as if you left the shas biah. Since we learned in Hilchos Niddah there's something called toich oino, so, ki'ilu, since it's toich oino, she's going to get clean, it's ki'ilu you left while she was already clean. Maybe there's a special halacha: you can't leave when she's clean. I don't know, it's a chiddush. I don't hear the whole din. I mean, if you owe something to somebody, you can't 20 hours later say, Well, it's not now, it's tomorrow, so therefore I'm not here and therefore I won't be here. You don't see that as an issue? The davar mechayev leil tevilah ishto. What are you talking about? But you're talking about leil tevilah. It's anyway that. We're gonna learn that anyway. What's anyway? Anyway, she says it's okay. She's moichel, then she can go anyway. She's moichel even now. On itself she can be mochel. What are you talking about? When ever we say that a man has to be there, it's because his wife is not mochel. Yeah, but this is when he's not mochel. She's telling you, I'm not mochel you. I want this Tuesday, and you're gonna leave Monday morning. What are you talking— What hetter do you have to leave Monday morning? He wants to be with her before he goes, or whatever. She's not mochel. It's just a proper thing to do with your wife. I don't know what you're saying, Daniel. You know what he said? You know what he said? Building a bayis. I don't know. He's saying stuff that's— maybe, maybe. Tell me, you're speaking English, she's speaking code language. I don't know what you're talking about. You know what he's talking about. You know. You're smart enough, sorry. You know the Morse code, you know. The Mace code, you know. It's a chiddush. Okay, now let's learn a little bit. I can tell you, המחמיר שלא לפקוד את אשתו רק בדברי ריצוי תבוא עליו ברכה. מה זה לא הפוך? המחמיר שלא רק לרצות את הבית בדברים, אלא לבוא בתשמיש תבוא עליו ברכה. That's exactly what I asked you. I asked you that already. Well, what kind of a tzaddik? Big tzaddik. Who asked you to be a tzaddik? No, I'm saying the chumra here is just— I told you that. The chumra should be the other way. You want to be machmir, do what you have to do. What kind of chumra is that? Give her a lollipop and she'll be happy. Huh? She likes what? That's the kasha I asked. This kasha I asked. I asked this kasha. No, he's saying this. I'm saying that's exactly what he's saying. המחמיר שלא לפקוד רק בדברי ריצוי תבוא עליו ברכה. היינו דברי ריצוי is— how do you say?— read it in the words. מה זה החומרא פה? It says you should be machmir, and you say machmir to be b'shaas. This is not that way. Machmir taval. Okay, now listen here. Let's do now the Taz and the Shach. Yud daled, yud daled. Afilu b'tashmishari, kivan d'veses d'rabbanan, kivan d'veses d'rabbanan, nu, rabbeisai. Kivan d'veses d'rabbanan, since veses d'rabbanan, makom mitzvah lo gazru. So chayru, any b'makom mitzvah, any b'makom mitzvah should be lo gazru. Makom mitzvah lo gazru. Makom mitzvah lo gazru. Let me ask you a kasha. I want to give you a case that's very scary. You ready? Thought about it a few years. Let's say...

You always talk about the veses come out b'leil tevilah. That's what the Pischei Teshuvah talks about, right? What happens if the veses are me'akev for the night where she could become pregnant, and they weren't mekayem peru u'revu yet? What happens in such a case? When we say b'makom mitzvah, what do we mean mitzvah? Which mitzvah are we referring to? Do we mean the mitzvah of onah, or we can extend the mitzvah to the mitzvah of peru u'revu also? That's the biggest... That would be siyum mitzvah. I don't know. You pasken that way? You would say pung fakert, right? I would say that's exactly what I would say. I would declare that pung fakert. I mean, when you say makom mitzvah, you mean the makom mitzvah, in other words, there's a chiyuv onah. Makom mitzvah, we don't mean mitzvahs, mitzvahs. We don't mean—we call the chiyuv onah mitzvah. Why, you learned differently? I think mitzvah is a mitzvah of peru u'revu. Doesn't mean vadai you have to have— You got to be mekayem the mitzvah of peru u'revu. You got to put yourself in the matzav of being mekayem the mitzvah. Of course. That's not the point. But if you have a mitzvah— That's not what I'm trying to... That's not what I want. You're saying it has to end up having children, these people, even if they went through all the hishtadlus. They can have a thing with hishtadlus. They're very much hishtadlus. A mitzvah. Yeah, but you can't negate them from being together because of how bad that issue... What happens if they calculated this is the night? Why not? Now let me tell you why I'm saying this. You like my question. I'll tell you, because you know what I want. I want to say the lashon, כיון דבעי במקום מצוה לא גזרו, מקום מצוה. Do we mean any mitzvah? That's what it means, במקום מצוה? Do we mean any mitzvah? No, I need to think. Do we mean leil mitzvah? That means— No, I don't even want that, because I don't really like the way you said it, because the truth is, pru urvu is taka, I mean, the chiyuv is nishtadlus, the mitzvah to try. I don't like that. I didn't mean that. That's not what I meant. I meant something else. I meant במקום where the bi'ah is a bi'ah of leil mitzvah, so to speak, then the taich is vestes are not negea, so פירוש מקווה night, יוצא לדרך, all the hishtokekus type of situation where you oher. Do we mean the oher once? Is that the one we're referring to? Or we mean any mitzvah? Any mitzvah which is negea, במקום מצוה לא גזרו רבנן. In other words, vestes were not said in an oifen where it's negea to leil tevilah, or leil chiyuv tashmish, chiyuv. But we don't mean mitzvahs. We're not referring to a stam, there's a klal every derabbanan is not negea במקום מצוה. You know, this Taz to me is a very big... Shh. I want to ask you a question. I want you to do me research and tell me if the Taz made up this language. I don't hear it before the Taz. I want to see if the Beis Yosef brings it down. Yeah, it's in the Beis Yosef over here. So I want to know if the... ...you bring that from Niddah, tes amud. Okay. Now I want to see the Gemara. Bring me—let's go back to the Gemara. Niddah. I want to go back to the Gemara. You know what I want? I'll tell you what I'm trying to understand. Is this pshat vestes, but not on the nights of—or pshat b'makom mitzvah, vestes goes out the window. It has to do with mitzvahs. Like gezeirah rabbanan, like every gezeirah rabbanan b'makom mitzvah. Is that the taich? Let me hear. Go ahead. Therefore, if she has no get, and if it's only al ther, then if she has no get, therefore be asur. Go ahead, read me the Gemara. Get me the mekor of this halacha.

Oina. Let's say you wanted to leave at night, so one ona is day. What? One ona? You have to wait 24 hours. What is the lashon of oina? I want to see the Shach. I'll get to the Shach in a bit. I looked everywhere. I didn't see it. Give me a few more minutes. I know it's a stupid question. It's not a stupid question. When reading the Raivid, I think I should read the sefaros. Kasav haRaivid, my taima, veseder banan, and it gives you the source, nida. Yeah. Ubemakom mitzvah lo gazru — that's the Raivid. That's what I mean. It's not from the Gemara. It's a Raivid. It's a chiddush of a Raivid. I'm not saying that. I'm just trying to get to what is this about. Is it about that veses, we're not setting such a leil tefilas? Or the taich is that there's a special halacha, like every derabanan. Ubemakom mitzvah lo gazru rabbanan, so it could be it's any mitzvah. It's not דווקא veses. Let me ask you another question. I'm saying, let's say she's nohshtaik because the leil tefila is over, but she's possible to have a baby three days later. I'm saying she's plausible. The guy made the thing. The doctor made the thing that she's ovulating three days after. So you want to say why ona? You want to say more than that? I don't know. Is that even called a chiyuv ona? I don't know if that's called a chiyuv ona. You want to know something? I never thought about that. Is there a chiyuv ona on the night that she could ovulate? No, it's a chiyuv different chiyuv. It's chiyuv pru urvu, right? So I want to know if this is also included. Okay, now let me tell you further what's going through my mind. Okay. Va'afilu b'tashmish, kivu d'vesta, onan makuvetz l'gaz, b'divrei ritzui. Aval gav d'gam b'ein yotze l'derech shari b'divrei ritzui, k'd'le'eil se'if beis, nicha, makom b'yotze l'derech chayev b'kach. So what's bothering the Taz? What's bothering the Taz is pshat the Ramo. What does the Ramo mean that even though it's mutar anyway, what is he trying to even though? What does he want? He's trying to say it has to do with tovelah bracha. Peirush, we're talking about the divrei ritzui, we're not talking about the tashmish. We're talking about the divrei ritzui. Aye, anyway mutar? Yeah, now it's chayev. That's what he means to say. The Ramo is trying to say that even though it's anyway mutar, af al gav she... so then when I tell you b'divrei ritzui, I'm telling you to be chayev b'divrei ritzui. It's a funny way of reading the Ramo, right? It's not very clear in the Ramo, huh? It's a very interesting Ramo. The Taz is learning that the Ramo is trying to say that this, that we're matir, yeah, but we're matir, but now we're mechayev. And if you only do that, it's tovelah bracha. So what does he say? The lachmir not do tashmish. Anyway, he says that you can be... The lachmir is not to do. He says, which means a not tashmish. That's what it means, a not tashmish, but he's trying to say, what does he mean, af al pi shekvar nisba'er, nisba'er that it's mutar, mameila here it's chiyuv. Okay. So why does it say in that language? Change the language. That's what he means. Yeah, but that's what the Taz is saying. I know, I know. So it says— It doesn't flow properly. That's what I'm saying. It doesn't flow properly, but that's what he's saying. No, no, it doesn't flow properly, but that's what he's saying. But now listen carefully. I want to know, on the divrei ritzui part, what happens if she's moichel? Let's say it's yotza l'derech, and it's divrei ritzui and she's moichel. Tavah l'bracha, what is that? Is that also tavah l'bracha? Now, b'emes, it's a strange thing to say, because b'emes it's mutar. So really there's no makom to be machmir, l'choira. My question is, is there a makom to be machmir on even the divrei ritzui? So normally we're saying—

There is. Normally there isn't. It's a makom l'hachmir. It could be by yotzei l'derech there's no makom to be machmir. It's not clear in the Rambam about this nekudah. What's on a regular not סמוך לווסת, not yotzei l'derech, nothing, a regular case—I'm sorry, on a case סמוך לווסת on a regular not yotzei l'derech. So kvarnis by that it's mutar, be'etzem it's mutar. He's there tovel a bracha if you don't do it. We learned there's a tovel a bracha if you don't do all this, and that's the minhag today. Minhag today is better not to do all these things. Okay. Now, so I'm asking, what about yotzei l'derech? Is there also an inyan to be machmir not to do even divrei ritzui? Why? Why would you say—what's the svara? Because the whole reason is, on a normal time you should be machmir. Should be machmir? What do you mean? The day of the oni, you're not supposed to have divrei ritzui. You should be machmir? Why is it—I'm not responsible for Rav Avadi's final analysis. The final psak is it's mutar, I understand, but it's a tumul, I mean it's two days. The Ashkenazi world for sure is machmir. It's unheard of by us. It's not done by us. So let's say, I'm saying, I'm asking, is there a makom for a regular frumak who doesn't do it on a regular—I'm asking. You come, a yeshiva guy comes over to you and says, Normally I don't do it. So the shaylah is, is there an inyan not to do it now also? That's the question. Is the tovel a bracha v'divrei ritzui is because she wants something, so at least you give her this, or is the tovel a bracha even chanam to do it also? It's a very nice shaylah, very interesting shaylah. Not Kelor and the Rama, if there's an inyan to be machmir. Okay, now let's see the Shach. Oh. Why should we—what? Why should we understand why? No, so the answer is because of lead. The Rama says, I'm sorry, the Rama says, ... אין צריך לפקוד אשתו. ... כן צריך לקדש אשתו, ואפילו בדברי ריצוי. ... You missing the point. Which part of the Rama are you reading? ... If he הולך לדבר מצוה, אין צריך לפקוד אשתו. ... לפני שאתה אומר ריצוי, then it's דברי ריצוי. ... אין צריך לפקוד אשתו, right? There's no chiyuv. No, but that's a דבר מצוה. Okay, but it's not a דבר מצוה. Okay, but you learned it from ... Let's say it's not a דבר מצוה, so ... No, you don't see it. What's wrong? What? It's the Rama. Huh? What's wrong? ... Now Tanya, gevald, you're the best. Okay, now listen carefully, listen good. Listen. תשמע טוב. In other words, this דבר מצוה, you can't make a דין from one thing to the next. Why not? Because it's not. Okay, listen carefully. תוך עין אחת, דכל מיני קורבא. What's כל מיני קורבא, right? דכל מיני קורבא ואהבה. See, notice what he says. What's called קורבא? אפילו חיבוק ונישוק. So I was right that אהבה means the words. Kurva means the maise. Now I want to tell you a tremendous thing that I have over here. I hold, and I tell this to the students over the years, you guys ask me, I answer the same thing over the years, that even on the time of vestes, and even where you have to be poresh and everything, Ashkenazim are makpid on chibuk v'nishuk. So I don't know what you guys do according to Rabbi Yisrael. I can't help you. In the yeshiva world, it's unheard of. It's completely unheard of. I mean, it's just unheard of. So I explained to you that there's two types of kiruv. There's kurva, which is chibuk v'nishuk. This kurva, which is chibuk, that leads to bi'ah. Then there's things which don't lead to bi'ah. That there's no reason. Extra nice, extra nice, and hashata, and these things, and, you know, I'm saying there's different levels to kurva. There are those that lead to bi'ah and there's those that don't. Even within chibuk v'nishuk? I mean, outside of that. Outside of chibuk v'nishuk. Even in— even Ashkenazim would be meikel with this. I hold that it's mutar. I hold that, in other words, there's a certain chibuk v'nishuk that's not even leading there. You hold the hand.

That's not what this is. That's not what we're referring to. That's not hot tachi; you write kol hachok. I didn't know that, I'm sorry. Hachok is this hoshata. That's our... Tachi, which is not taiva tachi, that I hold is mutar. It's a very big—it's a sliced halacha. We'll get to it when we do this, but I'm just trying to tell you, remember the lashon: kurva means chibah v'nishuk. Ahavah means ahavah, right? The chiddush is only the chibah v'nishuk part. The ahavah part is not a chiddush, but a pashut. Ahavah is not a problem. The problem is the nishuk, ma'asim which lead to bi'ah. Okay, that's touching here; we'll get to it a little bit later. Okay, now. V'ahavah gabei d'kasavti l'eil, siman vav, b'shem haBach d'machmir. Oh, here's the Bach that the Ashkenazim—obviously you're saying it doesn't exist; for now you see it exists. V'ahavah gabei b'shem haBach d'machmir b'chibuk v'nishuk tava al habracha, nira d'hacha ein l'hachmir—what's the word? Klal. I like that. I mean machmir, nothing. Ein l'hachmir klal, kivan d'yesh omrim d'afilu b'tashmish chiyuva mitzvah ika. Very shtark. So the two sides is not a heter tashmish. It's not b'tashmish shari; it's tashmish chayiv. What he says is, afilu, hagah, afilu tashmish shari. Remember the word shari doesn't mean shari; it's chi. Afilu b'tashmish shari. So meila, therefore the chibuk v'nishuk is a shtus to be machmir. Somebody asked you a question, What do we machmir? Chumra minishna, what do we machmir? Says the Shach, this vort: Ein lehachmir klal. You shouldn't be machmir at all. I think you have to clarify what he means is, lehachmir klal, you on her, but let's say she's machmir, let's say she wants. Anyway, you wouldn't be able to be machmir. If she doesn't want, then... No, maybe, yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't agree with you. If a person really holds nikra, didn't touch... I clarified this. The tavi olav bracha, I asked you this. It says tavi olav bracha, with her or without her. I asked you this. Don't make believe I didn't ask you. I asked you this question. I don't know. According to this Shach, the way those shachs are learning, I understood that it's—there's nothing to talk about. You shouldn't be machmir. There's nothing to discuss. The way I learned this thing is, he says there's one opinion, the whole thing is mutar. Not only mutar, but mitzvah. It's a mitzvah. So if you hold that that's a mitzvah, the other sheet holds, what, pungferkeit is aser? Even b'di'eved, you should be machmir. Now you understand? Not so? What's... No, I understand. You don't agree. No, I saw that also. I saw. Why it's wrong, why... You see that? No, you can go tell him myself. Okay. I want to know why it's wrong. I don't see it. I don't see it. You know what? I'll tell you what. Say it over again, and let's discuss it. Maybe I missed it. Say it again. He says, Ve'im holech ledvar mitzvah, ein tzarich lifkod ishto, נכון? מהשמע, מזה אתה משמע, תעשה דיוק של תוספות, מהשמע שאם זה לא דבר מצווה, צריך לפקוד אשתו. Now there's a machlokes whether to bekod means... So even though Tumanda amar that it's not tashmish, it's divrei ritzui. Listen to me. He's not talking about vestes. He's not— that's why I asked you, is he going back on vestes? It's possible this line is not even about vestes anymore. Stam in general. On the regular chiyuv, maybe there's bichlal not a chiyuv when you're holech l'dvar... Forget about vestes. If it's not vestes, what's... If she's not in... This line, this line. This Rambam is trying to tell you, it's not about—you want to learn it's going back on Shas vest, if you make a neder. It's not about Shas vest. Stam the Rambam is saying that there's no chiyuv. Don't do vestes. Therefore that's why I didn't ... your neder. Okay, let's see a little further. Toich oina achas. So we discussed, someone said 12 hours. I didn't want to fight with him. I mean, it's a shach. D'hainu, yeah, yom. Huh? D'hainu, yom o layla. K'de'isa b'Shas, ... yud beis shaos. ... yud beis shaos.

Let's eat with cash. Let's eat by yom. No, let's eat. You want to leave at night. No, let's eat the hainu yom. Let's say, let's say she's the toich oina achas. You want to leave at the day, so he's waiting for the night, and he doesn't, and then he goes. So what does he mean by yom? What does he mean, Chano? What is he saying? The hainu toich ha... the hainu yom oylaila. Very good. It makes perfect sense. Twelve hours. It depends where you are. Twelve o'clock in the afternoon, twelve hours later. So what's yom oylaila? What's yom? Oina means yom or laila. Day or night. Day or night. So let's say, let's say you want—let's say she was supposed to be tovel the next night, right? And you want to leave by day. That's mutar, right? He doesn't say anything about twelve hours. He says yom oylaila. But he holds, he said it before that he holds of the... I understand, but when he says here, he says toich oina, she has to go to mikveh within what? So again, let's read. V'yesh oimrim, adam rotzeh v'ishto nidah v'titbol toich oina. What does that mean, v'titbol toich oina? She will be tovel in this oina. Oh. So what's oina? The word oina means... He's just telling you, you should know the word oina. So we need to see the Shas. I don't know what it's talking... I don't know what you want. What do you mean, oina oylaila? What does that mean? Again, you can't tell me he's telling—jashtra. He's not trying to be a jashtra. He's trying to tell me the halacha here. When she's titbol toich oina means what? Oina, the hainu yom oylaila. Yeah. What's it— I don't—what is she being tovel by yom? What does it mean? I don't know what it means. K'd'isa b'Yerushalmi, hainu yud beis sha'os. Right. In other words, we're just using the word oina, yom or laila, which happens to be twelve hours. So therefore, within twelve hours. It's any time within twelve hours. Okay, good. Tzarich l'hamtin... good. Tzarich l'hamtin. Im holech l'dvar mitzvah, ein tzarich l'hamtin. K'd'isa b'Yerushalmi, וכן... ואפילו לדבר הרשות, אם הולך לצורך גדול. That's the key word, גדול. It's very big business. Nir'eh דאין צריך להמתין... So that's it. That's where the problem comes in, what's called a צורך גדול. Okay, it's 1:30. Continue tomorrow. It's a very big sugya. I want to finish it. Don't do it like last time.