Hilchos Vestos: A Ketanah Establishing a Veses, Puberty, Ninety Days, and the Shach–Taz Dispute

Transcript

Tinokes shelo higi'a zmanan liros, v'higdilah. Shelo higi'a limaen urim. So, so what's the two things? Tinokes shelo higi'a zmanan liros, v'higdilah, shelo higi'a limaen urim. What are the two things? So if you look at the Shach, the Shach says, D'hainu shehaysa pechosah miyud beshanah v'yom echad. So what is tinokes shelo higi'a zmanan liros? It's the same thing. She's a ktanah, she's a ktanah. She's a naarah. Again, whatever it is, so ktanah shelo higi'a limaen urim. What do you want, tinokes shelo higi'a zmanan liros? What's the hakdamah? Who? It's not to the islanders, v'higdilah, she's a ktanah. So what's tinokes shelo higi'a zmanan liros? What does that mean? It doesn't mean anything. Huh? So what's v'higdilah shelo higi'a limaen urim? Peirush, and on top of that the Shach is also peirush. Each one's being mefaresh more, you mean. Tinokes, says the Shach, v'peirush v'higdilah. Peirush, d'hainu, peirush. Okay. I understand. So what do you want? So again, are we talking about a ktanah? Tinokes shelo higi'a zman liros, you wouldn't know what it is. You would say she's seven. What do you mean? You don't know. You don't know when her period's supposed to start. We don't know. It means in case you know the science, you mean. Huh? Yeah, what are the little texts? She's a baby, her time hasn't come. So what's that? Yeah, her time is not for puberty. What's the difference? Whatever it is, whatever girl doesn't see, I don't know. Yeah, really? You found this, he ktanah shelo higi'a limei na'arim? I'm telling you, he ktanah. What is a ktanah? You mean he's mefaresh the Gemara. Katuv, בגמרא: תינוקת שלא הגיעה זמנה לראות. I don't like it. You like it? I mean, what's wrong? Just tell me the halacha. What do you have to — the Rambam, the Mechaber, the mefaresh the Gemara? What are you talking about? I don't know what you want exactly. I'm repeating what I read in the prisha. I understand good. I'm not telling you — what's that? So obviously he was bothered by my kashas, right? כי נראה שהיה קשה לו את השאלות, ו... I didn't see the prisha, but now that I see — you're telling me over the prisha — I think, כשם שמקבל שכר על הדרישה... No, I'm just kidding. You're not saying anything. I mean, what do you want? You tell me over the Gemara says, and therefore I have to mefaresh it? The Gemara — you tell me over the Gemara. I know this is a Gemara. תינוקת שלא הגיעה זמנה לראות. I know it's a Gemara, so I have to know it's a Gemara, and I have to know that he has to mefaresh the Gemara. Huh? I don't know. Yeah, that's what I think. You see, that's the difference between me and him. I think he's saying something. I think תינוקת שלא הגיעה... he's telling you a yesod in halacha. This is not just כתוב בגמרא, ואני בא לפרש, והש"ך בא לפרש את התלמודים שלי, והפרישה בא לפרש את התלמודים של הש"ך. I don't think so. I think it's more than that. I think he's telling me something. תינוקת שלא הגיעה זמנה לראות. He's telling me a yesod in halacha. עכשיו אתה מבין את החילוק בין... הדו שיח שקורה פה? יש דו שיח. Hu lomed, agmara kotev, tinok shegiya lizman liros. HaRamam chaber rotzeh lefaresh, vihi ktanah shelo higia limei hanurim, vhashach rotzeh lefaresh, hakavanah hi shepchusah miyud beis shanim, vhaprishah ba lefaresh. Okay, I don't know. This leads to yeter midai meshubach. How do I know there's a Gemara, tinok shegia lizman liros? I think he's saying something. We'll soon see. Okay. Vhi ktanah shelo higia limei hanurim. Vhi ktanah, shelo higia, says the Shach, dhainu shehi pchusah miyud beis shanim vyom echad. Tell me, what happens if she's one day earlier? One day earlier. No good, right? Pchusah, yom echad. You see the Shach goes out of his way. You know that in Even HaEzer it says clearly that a woman could actually become a gedolah a day earlier. You know about that? Okay, I want you to take out the Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer, siman kuf nun hei, seif yud-daled. MehaShach mevuar — so, yud-beis vyom echad. If it's anything earlier, uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh. Okay, go ahead. Kuf nun hei, seef yud-daled in the Rama.

Yeah, I'm in middle shiur. I'm in middle shiur, yeah, quickly, yeah. I don't have to? Why? Why? I mean, you're going to pick her up, you mean? Ah, okay, okay, okay, okay, bye. All right. We have to pick her up. Look at this. So yesterday, I offered, and I don't have to do it. This is tremendous. I got the best of both worlds. Okay, go ahead, yeah. Rambam. Rambam, go ahead, read the Rambam. Yeah, Kuf Nun Hey. See if you're daled. Having interesting, no? Before. So how come there's no mention of that here? There's no... I mean, it's מסתבר. It's a k'mo shemevu'ar b'siman Kuf Nun Hey, huh? Rambam, יש אומרים means he's saying it, that it's real, that it happened, right? I see, but here there's no mention of that. There's no mention. Isn't it strange, no? What's not megaleh one day? Who's counting? One day earlier, one day later, maybe that's what it all means, huh? When it comes to negea to your beis, you go to the rav. The rav will know siman Kuf Nun Hey. That's what it means. תלך לרב, הרב ידע כבר את הסימן קוף נה. פה לא. General. So the Shach is just general. Don't worry about it. Doesn't bother you? Okay, now that you know about these things, does it bother you? You know the taam hadin over there. The taam hadin is that it could come one day early. I know, but it's different. The taam hadin is that a woman can become a gedolah one day early. It could be a mistake by one day, meaning it could come earlier. One day earlier, she grew up a little bit earlier. I'm asking, it's a chiddush, no? Okay, so let's see a little further. V'higtana shelo higi'a limei hana'urim. So, v'higtana shelo higi'a limei hana'urim. Now, when you say na'urim, what is na'urim? Na'urim is a na'arah. What does na'urim mean? She's a na'arah, right? I mean, it has to do with ימי הנעורים. It has to do with... simanim, right? Yemei just means the first time she's able to become a na'arah. Right. Limei hana'urim. Okay. So I'm saying, so we don't mean na'arus, we mean yemei hana'urim. Afilu hevia שתי שערות. And even if she brings two se'aros, which means earlier. וכן אפילו הגיעה לימי הנעורים, אם בדקוה ולא הביאה שתי שערות, היא קובעת וסת כשאר נשים. Wait a minute, but she didn't bring two se'aros. So obviously it has to do with yemei ha'inurim. I don't know. It doesn't have to do with her physical godless and not godless. She didn't bring Cyrus, so she's not really a gedolah. She's not really a nairah. Right, she's saying that. I know what she's saying, but why is it that way? Don't you think it's, like, strange? I mean, if she's not a nairah, she's not a gedolah. The ikar is the yemei ha'inurim. Yemei. What is yemei? My question. Does she have yemei ha'inurim and she doesn't have se'aros? What happens? She could be... Why? She's not a gedolah. She's seen many times and now she has a... Again, but you're missing the point. If it has to do with her body, the physical godless of her body, then man nafshach. So if it doesn't have anything to do with it, so we don't care. And if it does have to do with it, so then we should care. She should have se'aros. Se'aros is a siman of godless and katnus in the physical. So if that makes no difference, so then what are you to'en? Then she'd be katan also. I mean, so why kovea vest? Ela mai, it makes no difference. So then I don't... Oh, so you're saying a very, very interesting scientific...

Theory, science project. Basically, Cyrus demonstrates. So she's demonstrating through another way, so maybe she should become a na'arah now. Maybe, according to you, she should become a na'arah now. Of course she doesn't, but according to him it should be that way, no? I'm asking you a question. What's the reason why a woman who's a ketanah is not kovea vest? And the answer is because her body's not ready, right? Because she's not a gedolah and her body's not ready. So I'm asking you, if she didn't bring Cyrus, what does that tell me? Ela, you say it's because Cyrus doesn't mean anything, because that demonstrates. So then I'm asking you, is she a gedolah? Is it possible that her body should be ready for dam and not other things? I'm asking you, man d'savar, then that's not a ketanah then. Again, if she's a ketanah and she's not higi'a zmanah, so I'm asking you, so let her be kovea vest that way. והיא קטנה שלא הגיע לה מנין, אפילו הביאה שתי שערות, וכן אפילו הגיע לה מנין. אלא שיש הפרש ביןה לגדולה, שאף על פי שהוחזקה רואה, נקבע לה וסת. פסק ג' עונות בינונית, שאם צדק יום, אינה חוששת. I don't understand. Why not? Maybe she's a gedolah. This girl who's 12 years old who didn't bring se'aros, maybe she's a gedolah. אפילו חזרו לראות באותן עונות, או לראות בימי נדה שש. Okay, so these are the chilukim. Okay, so you don't know what I want. What I want is as follows. I want to know, I want to know that this girl, v'hi ktanah shelo higi'aah limei neurim. Now who cares if she's a ketanah, shelo higi'aah limei neurim, huh? Ki noheg shehigi'aah zman haliros. V'hi ktanah shelo higi'aah limei neurim, afilu v'yeshtei sa'iros, which means that she brought two sa'iros, she's seven. V'chein afilu higi'aah limei neurim, ein ba kol v'lo v'yeshtei sa'iros, okay, hi kovaas bes k'shara nosh. Az a ktanah, you say. You're saying as a ketanah. What, what's wrong? She's bringing, both cases she's a ketanah. No, because normally, yeshtei sa'iros means she's a gedolah. Afilu v'yeshtei sa'iros, v'chein afilu higi'aah limei neurim, hi kovaas bes k'shara nosh m'sholosh reios. V'hi ktanah, nachamo, v'hi ktanah shelo higi'aah limei neurim, afilu v'yeshtei sa'iros, v'chein afilu higi'aah... So the v'hi ketanah goes on both. That's what you're saying, v'hi ketanah kama, of ketanah, shelo higi'a limei ha-ne'urim. In both cases, she's a ketanah. No, in the second case. When he says she's a ketanah, you say, A, like this or B, like that? Of ketanah. That's both, both ketanah. What's wrong if she's not a ketanah? Yeah. What's wrong if she's not a ketanah? Wait a minute. What happens if she's a ketanah? She's not a ketanah. V'lo hivi'ah שתי שערות, and she didn't bring two hairs. Wait a minute. What's wrong if she's not a ketanah? What's wrong if she's not a ketanah? What's wrong if she's not a ketanah? No, what's wrong? Maybe she's an ailonis. Wait a second, you didn't say what I'm trying to say. Tinokes shelo higi'a zman ha-liros, huh? What does that have to do with the zman? What's wrong ketanah? Tinokes shelo ra'asa, she never saw. What happens if she's an ailonis?

What happens if she's a woman who the reason why she doesn't see is because nothing to do with age. It has to do with the maturity of her body. An ailonis is not a period. No. That's the whole story with an ailonis. An ailonis is not a period. It's a whole story. I want to know, okay, you know what? You know why I'm asking? Halacha l'maaseh. Halacha l'maaseh. Halacha l'maaseh. Our girls who don't see their period till they're sixteen, even though they have se'aros. Shehigia zmana liros v'lo ra'asa, that's one of the types in the Gemara. Lo higia zmana, but she didn't see. Where is this in Shulchan Aruch? You have it somewhere? Don't tell me look up. I want to know Shulchan Aruch. I want halacha. I don't know. I don't know if Shulchan Aruch, but I'm asking you, where is it? Ten perek. You saw it? You saw somebody? Don't talk about it. Do you know what I want? You know, he's nervous today, but you know what I want? Huh? You're thinking what I want? I want you to pay attention to the... is it her or is it time? האם הסוגיה פה היא או הסוגיה פה הזמן. הזמן לראות עדיין לא הגיע. Okay, so I want you to write down the following questions while he looks up, because he's a nervous guy today. So, good. So it says the Gemara brings the case, but it's not in Shulchan Aruch. Yes, that's a good question, though. So you don't hear what— you still don't hear. The fact that it's a Rambam and it's not in Shulchan Aruch, that's not a sugya to you. I still don't— what's the question? I'm asking questions. I'm trying to understand. Tanesh lehigia zman haleidos. So my first question is, what do you want? I don't even know what you want. You're talking about a ketanah, that's the end of the story. That's the sugya, ketanah. My second sugya is, you somehow spent a lot of energy with Shulchan Aruch to talk about a ketanah, a ketanah like this and a ketanah like that. What's wrong has nothing to do with the ketanah. What's wrong with the mere fact that this woman is not a woman that has periods? She's a normal age, she has tires, she doesn't have periods. She doesn't have periods. Yet, or she just doesn't— her medical condition, she doesn't have— Both. Both, I don't know, whatever you want. She's a woman who's not seeing periods. What's the answer? Is she kovea vesh? She's not kovea vesh. What's so hard to understand? She never saw— Both. So pregnant and— Both. She's not seeing periods. That's it, end of the story. Let me ask you, so you tell me it's a Rambam, it's not a Shulchan Aruch, something, right? Something, something. As far as the English. Okay, you have to relax. I don't know, maybe you're hungry, maybe it's the cough medicine you're taking. You're obviously very perturbed today. I'm just learning with you. Okay. The next question I have is, you noticed that he put a lot of emphasis on badkuha. They checked. Im badkuah, what happens if they weren't bodek? V'tana shelo higia zman haliro'os, v'hi ktana shelo higia limein urim, afilu vishtei sa'iros. Vchein im higia limein urim, im badkuah vlo hivia shtei sa'iros, what happens if they weren't bodek? They just don't know. Huh? Who's mistanef? She did it. What happens if she— every girl comes to beis... by the way? Meaning, he wouldn't make a sugi. There's no sugi. What's mashma? They had to be bodek. Why do they have to be bodek? Im badkuah vlo hivia shtei sa'iros. Im badkuah, they were bodek vlo hivia shtei sa'iros, and she didn't bring two sa'iros. What's wrong? They weren't bodek. What do you need to be bodek she didn't bring? What happens if she claims, I didn't bring, I don't have sa'iros, and you didn't check? What would be the halacha if she says, I don't have sa'iros, but nobody checked?

So I'd be asking her name, mona, for believe it or not. I know you don't know, so that's why you're sitting here. That's what we're discussing. Of course you don't know. My question to you is, I'm asking. But kuah v'lo yedia. What happens if you don't know? What happens if it's a safek? We don't know what's going on. So everything's a different halacha. Wouldn't it be nice if it's brought down some? I mean, there's no reason to talk about it. It's different. This the Gemara talks about. This the Gershin talks about. What about the Shulchan... No, that's not what I'm talking about. I want to know, l'maaseh. Lo higia zmana liros, here? Shelo higia zmana liros. So I want to know l'maaseh, that you're talking about that she doesn't see, or are you talking about a zman? And then what do you say? V'hi tanish lo higia limei nurim. She was not... What about her? Forget about limei nurim. What about her? Also, im batkuah v'lo yeviah shtei sa'iros. What do you need batkuah v'lo yeviah? We don't know. She claims. Where is the bedikah v'lo yeviah? Why is that the case, bedikah v'lo yeviah? Okay, now, I want to know, what's the halacha like this? So she's kovas vest k'shar nashim. Now what does she mean by k'shar nashim? What is the diyuk of k'shar nashim? Just an expression, like a גדול. What would be wrong if it would be kovas vest, period? K'shar nashim. What do you care if she's kavas vest? K'shar nashim. You have to go out of your way and say k'shar nashim. Anyways, b'sholesh re'iyos, b'shar havestos. Vest haflogos, al sheyesh hefsek beinah l'gedolah, she'af al pi shehukzka ro'ah v'kavalah vest, im paska gimel ones beinonis, sheheim tzadikim, v'lo yarsa, eina chosheshes l'vest, so she's not choshesh. Okay. Now what happens if it's not vest harishon? Does she have to be choshesh stam for vestos? She's not choshesh for kvius, because three months went by and she didn't see. Or pshat sheichlal she forget about it, leave it alone, so she's obviously not a ro'ah. So this is a machlokes the Shach and Taz about this. You just said a case that she didn't see for three months, so she's not choshesh. So what are you not choshesh? It says, it's mashma she's not choshesh l'vest haechad, which is harishon, the first kvius. Okay, so I want to know, is she choshesh as a vest she'eino kavua, or is she bichlal not choshesh? The whole thing doesn't exist. It's mashma she's not choshesh for the kvius anymore. The Taz says not choshesh. Okay, let's see it inside. Peirush, go ahead, read the Taz. Mem beis. פירוש, לא ראתה עד אחר תשעים יום, ואז ראתה, אפילו הכי אין חוששין שמא מקרהו. פירוש, אם לא ראתה עד אחר תשעים יום, ואז ראתה, אפילו הכי אין חוששין שמא מקרהו. ואף על פי כן, אפילו חזרה לראות באותן עונות... So in case she ends up seeing again, it's not again; the kvius is gone, it's finished. She didn't see for three months. Nothing, so she has to keep on waiting because there's a vest kavua. Do you see here that she saw again, or maybe she just stopped seeing, period? Right. What does it say about לא ראתה? Okay, take a look at the Shach. Shach says it doesn't make a difference. Are you with me? Is anybody with me here? Yeah. No, because we have to do this inside. You'll ask me afterwards. אפילו חזרה לראות...

באיסן עיניס, שהייסה לימוד. Okay. פירוש, אם לא ראתה עד אחר תשעים יום, ואז ראתה, אפילו הכי אין חוששת שמא מקרו, שאינה חייש. ... ואפילו חזרו ליראות באוסן עיניס. ... מיו, מה שהבין שם דראש דהכא בלא חזרה ליראותו, הוא נכון. ... The case is that she never saw again. According to the Shach, the story is, again, according to the Taz, the story is חזרה ליראות. According to the Shach, it's talking about לא חזרה ליראות. She didn't see for thirty days. She didn't see for ninety days. The Taz comes along and says it's too much; she went and she saw again. Listen. She still is nothing. The Shach says the story is like Chazar lirois. I'm going to give everybody three minutes to be me'ayein, because I see the olam is not holding. So, tainu, katuv, no? It's a davar barur. Anachnu medabrim po al ketanah. Az diyaknu vechakarnu, ve... ma hakavanah po, tana shelo yigil lirois. Okay. Shach, yesh chidush, sheketanah zu is different than gedolah. What's different than gedolah? Because if she didn't see for three months, so forget about it, right? What does it mean she didn't see for three months? So the Shach learns she never saw again, finished, it never happened. The Taz learns, no, no, it's too much that she saw again, but who cares? What's the difference? Yeah, because there has to be a difference between the case of ketanah and what's-name, and by gedolah it says, according to the Taz, we say if she sees again, then she's choshesh for the beginning; it comes back. According to the Taz, right. So what the Taz says is that the story is she even chazrah lirois, it still doesn't make a difference. Okay, Raffi, you need another two minutes to get it? I'm gonna need more than two minutes, it's not gonna... Okay, Daniel, you need more than two minutes? Yeah, yeah. Are you with me? The olam didn't prepare this, huh? Okay, so I'll tell you what, you know what, we'll go slow a little bit, and then we'll do it again, I guess on Sunday, and that's all. What's your question? Rebbe said about the ketanah, we believe her or not? What's the difference in this case, in a child that goes to Chumash Zachar, and wears a... You're not ne'eman on the child, you have to ask the father. You have to ask. Yeah, that's going to be yotzei with the de'oraisa. I understand, but why would, why in this case maybe we'd believe her, and in this case of Chumash Zachar, I know they're both... Right, so that's why I'm going to say my shiur. If anybody wants to talk about it. I'm saying, not so much. So far I'm just pointing out. It's mashma, loi badkuah. But what happens if you don't know? I'm sorry, badkuah v'lo hivi'ah. Badkuah v'lo hivi'ah. What happens if they weren't bodek? What happens if... Okay, we'll talk about it. We're going to talk about it. Okay, so right now we have a machlokes: machlokes Shach, Taz, if she was chazrah liros or not. Is the story chazrah liros or it's lo chazrah? It's a pashut she'eilah. What are they arguing about? According to the Taz, pashut she'eina peshutah. Taz sover, afilu chazrah... afilu, right? Actually, he writes, afilu chazrah liros. The Shach אומר, לא, לא, לא, לא. Im chazrah liros, אז צריכים לחשוש, צריכים לחשוש. But wait a minute, what's the story here? ... אפילו חזרה לראות באותן עיניים, אינה חוששת.

עד שתעסוק בנו ג' פעמים. So you don't have to worry about the kvius, but what about keina kavua, maybe? Right, so that's the shaylah here. He's learning, lo ra'asa eino choyshesh, פירש אם לא ראתה עד אחר תשעים יום, ואז ראתה, ואפילו הכי אינה חוששת. לקבוע? No. Period. Anything. He's learning that we're talking about if you don't want to be choshesh for anything, you have to not see it again. It's finished. The chiluk between the Shach and the Taz is, if she didn't see it all, period, ever again, right? The Shach says— Huh? If according to the Shach if she does see again, so it comes out to be, then you are choshesh for the previous, or you're just choshesh for... You should be choshesh for veses kavua. No, but the veses kavua fell off. Huh? Within ninety days. No, within ninety days. After ninety days that you saw, does it come back? עד אחר תשעים יום. Not the Taz, Shach. Finished. Because according to the Shach, the case is she didn't see complete, that's it. No, according to the Shach, you would still have to worry about like an eina kavua. According to the Taz, forget about it. It's nothing. The machlokes, ma machlokes. Okay, but נמשיך. Okay. Right. No, im chazra liros. Afilu chazru liros, forget about the kavua. Aval choshesh l'ein kavua. HaShach, the Taz learned, bichlal ein chashashes. There's nothing about to talk about. What? Good? What? Interesting, right? So the Shach learns that ein chashashes means for the kavua. The Taz learns... This is slow. So that's what the Taz is saying. The Taz comes along and he explains, shemikruhu. That's what the Taz wants. The Taz wants to say it's mikru. Oh, meileh, if it's mikra, it's mikra, so that's it, leave it alone. Yeah? What did the Shach hold? Now you're talking about v'ein kavua, but isn't it nekar? And the teretz is, it has to be nekar in three times, right? So how many days we're talking about? We're talking about ninety days. So why isn't it nekar according to... Huh? Yeah. What? Thirty-five. So it's not. So according to the Shach, that her aflagos are thirty-five, so what is the thirty days? Her aflagos are thirty-five. What's the pshat? One ofch. Why this number has nothing to do with her. If you talk about her, if you talk about her, so where's the number 30? The number 30 is irrelevant. This bothers me. I was thinking about this from a very long... If the pshat is, you want to say that ein chosheshes klal, so then I can hear a pshat. The pshat is like this: she didn't see, and then she saw again. So what's his name saying, v'vadai gevart? The Taz is saying maybe she's starting over again, and she'll see now again her vestes. You know, when somebody is not ready, right, so it's on and off like. You know what I'm saying? When it starts, it works, and then it stops. So maybe the pshat is it started and it stopped. And now that it started, so let's be choshesh, k'mashma lan not choshesh. But according to the Shach, the story is...

That she didn't see at all. But if she saw, what happens? Chazrah liros, right? She saw again, but she didn't see with the kvius. So I don't understand what the—where the thirty days is. Where does thirty days come in? If her zmanim are thirty-five. She saw only once after she didn't see three times, thirty days. When she came to see again, she saw once. According to the Taz, she saw once. According to the Shach— No, after ninety days. According to the Shach, she didn't see at all. But if she did see, what would be the halacha? She's like an eina kavua. And when does she start again her kvius? Only if she sees three again. Same thing comes up. It's not. According to the Taz, nothing. She's eina—it's like nothing. She's so after ninety days, so it's nothing. Don't pay attention to it. According to the Shach, what is it? It's building to another two, maybe. It's building to another two, but it's an eina kavua, right? Right. Wait a second. How does it work that she saw within thirty days? I'm sorry, how does it work that she didn't see—she didn't see her thirty-fives? She didn't see her thirty-fives, and still there's ninety days to come and tell me that it becomes a what? So what's the ninety days? How did ninety days come into the picture? Should be more than ninety days. What? Keep all this in mind. We assume, say, we assume, say, a woman can ... I'm saying it should be more than 90 days. It should be more than 90 days because it's more than 90 days. 35. What's wrong? What's wrong? 101. 105. What's wrong? What's bothering you? Thanksgiving. Ah. To what? You're upset at Thanksgiving. It's not getting anything. Okay, let's see further. What would happen if a woman is such a woman that doesn't see only two months? She sees every two months. I know. It's machlokes, wait a second. She only sees every two months. How is she oiker? Is she oiker it with 90, but two times the sets of 90s, or it's 90 days? Machlokes. You know it's machlokes, huh? Three of those things. Why are they arguing? Okay, so let me tell you. Yes. I have a little bit of a hard time saying this shit because the item is not really knowing the pratim. Let me just tell you what I want, and we'll be able to do this on Sunday. You know, we'll give one big boom shiur on Sunday. You know, the Taz begins the seif very nice. I like it. Tamrinan shuman inhu, v'lo simanei gadlus. Right? We say it's a shuma. Afilu v'yesh שתי שערות. So we say it's a shuma v'lo simanei gadlus. It's interesting. I mean, what is the Taz want? I'm not sure what he... It's you do the halacha, that before twelve it's a shuma. I don't know, vas bilah. Yeah. The Shach, ... חוץ מי״ב שנה ויום אחד. Shach went out of his way. He was very busy with the twelve, and then... Notice that the Taz says a yesod: mikru, shemikru. Let's clarify. In order to mechayev vestes, she needs to have that she started to see. Or in order to mechayev vestes, she needs to be a gedolah. If she has gadlus and she doesn't see,

So then she has a special heter called mesulekes dam. Again, v'nach chakirah. What's the mechayev? Is the mechayev the fact that she sees? The fact that she sees. So we have to wait for her to show me that she sees. Or the pshat is it has to do with zmanim, has to do with age. Now, certain women, even though they are of a certain age, but they're mesulekes dam. Let's go back now to the original chakirah I asked you originally about vestes. Is vestes the pshat this woman, maybe she's a nida, and therefore we have to be choshesh? Or is vestes a din? Is the din of prishah סמוך לווסת, she might come to see, so it's in this woman, it's all about this woman? Or is prishah סמוך לווסת an algemeine halachah, general halachah? For example, certain foods, shrimp. You see shrimp, you have to clarify maybe there's something wrong with the shrimp, right? Or there's an algemeine halachah called hashgachah. It could look mamash like no reason to be choshesh, there's mamash no reason, but still you have to make sure it's kosher. Now it's Thanksgiving. You look just like the pilgrims. Okay. We'll talk ... Yeah? Let me ask you a question. Kol zman you don't know that she is, how would safek work? If she's a safek that she saw, what would be by sfeikos? Let's say she's 12 years old, okay, and there's a safek. So if you learn that it's this man of 12 years old, so the only way the safek would work is if bat kulah v'lo ra'ah, they didn't see shtei sa'aros. That's what the Taz holds. That's truma. That's what ... Everything will fall into place. Once she becomes gedolah, once she comes, we die. Well, the pshat is that it has nothing to do with chazakah, meaning once we have a reason to say that she sees, then itself is already reason to what? To be choshesh. Kol zman we don't know, maybe there's no reason to be choshesh. If you learn that it's chashash, you have to be choshesh maybe something. So kol zman you don't know. That she's alulu lirois, so why are you choshesh? You know, let me put it back into the shulchan aruch. You know with me? You know with me? Not at all. Not at all. Not a hundred percent. Okay, I'm saying it like this: Tinokes shelo higia zmana lirois. Why is it not about her? Why is it about higia zmana? What's zmana? What are you referring to? That was the original question Rebbi asked. Which I asked you this. Why are we talking about ketanah shemoylem lo ra'asa? She's a ketanah. She never saw. She's not physically ready to see. Is this about her to be choshesh she'll see, she won't see, she might see? Or is this the shaila is, in the issur, the issur of סמוך לווסת, do you have to be choshesh for it? You know, there's four noshim which are mesulekes dam.

You know what they are? And fourth, petulah. Huh? Pesulah is dumb. Does it say ktanah? Read me the Gemara. Read the Gemara. Read the Gemara. Tistakel baGemara. Pay close attention. Tula? What's petulah? Start again. Petulah. I think the case when ... the ktanah ... What's petulah? Read the words. What does petulah mean? She never saw. I like that. You don't like the diyuk? You don't hear my diyuk? I'm asking you a question. Why don't you say ktanah? That's all. It's one diyuk. It's one diyuk. Tinakes shelo higia zman halirois, says the Mechaber, you know what the taich is? It's not about shelo rasah. He doesn't learn the sugya about pesulah. He learns about shelo higia zman halirois, and it's about ktanah. There's two ways to learn this seif. There's one way to learn this seif: this is about pesulekes, dumb. And there's one way to learn this seif: it's ktanah. There's no reason to be choshesh, tanah sees dam. If she what? If she what? She sees many times while she's seven years old. Does that mean she's gedolah l'chol davar? I didn't say any—I have no idea. I don't— I said the chashash vestes, the chashash vestes, is not about mesulekes damim; it's about higia zmanah lire'os. It's not about past history; it's about ktanah. V'hi ktanah—he goes out of his way to explain that, v'hi ktanah, zmanah lire'os. I asked you, why does he want—why just talk about a ktanah? Why just start the halachah? Ktanah is mesulekes damim, much more. Shelo higia zmanah lire'os. V'hi ktanah, and we go through ktanah. We go through halachos of Hilchos Ktanah. Tell me, in Hilchos Ktanah, the hainu where you need ktanus, not where you need gedolah. In other words, not pshat you need that she should grow; you need ktanah ugedolah. Do we say a sevara shekodmah lyom echad? What does kodmah lyom echad mean? I could declare kodmah lyom echad: certain people mature one day earlier. But if a zman is a zman, then it's a zman, no? Ktanah. Mai ktanah? What do you want? Okay. There's two ways we can go around the shiur right now. I could start going back now, or I could let you think about it, and Sunday we could have an extravaganza shiur on this, because I want to say a lot. There's a lot that I want to say here. On the face, I don't see, see, I don't see it. I don't see it. Are you with me at all? You just what? Following. Finding what? Following. Why? Because you don't know the sugya well. So what do you mean? Let's explain to me. It's not going to take... So let's, yeah, no, talk to me. I don't, I just don't see things going nicely into this topic, this topic. You don't see nicely, but I didn't say how they go in yet. I didn't say anything. How could you see go— That's why I'm looking at a very confused look, because I don't see the end yet. That's because you don't see the end yet. You can't hear till now? What should I do? I should smile at the... Okay, let's start again. Smile at the... Okay, let's start it. Let's start it. Are you maskim that there's a chiluk between the wording of the Gemara and the Shulchan Aruch? Huh? Are you maskim that the word besulas damim is a weird way of calling a ketanah? I never heard a ketanah be called a besulas damim.

You have a ... psulos damim? Tanah? No, psulos dam. That's the way of calling her. Psulos dam means mesulekes dam, and we're talking about a sugya from a mesulekes dam. When the mechaber comes along, you see that he's going out of his way to talk about something. Tinokes shelo higi'a zmana liros. Why didn't you just say, tinokes shehi mesulekes dam? No, no, talk about tanah. You're talking about a zman. That's exactly what I want to get at. The mechaber is not even talking about such a case where she's a mesulekes dam for a reason. The mechaber is not talking about a mesulekes dam. The sugya is about age. There's a certain age where you don't have to be choshesh for nidah. That's the way I understand the sugya. Tanah, and then זקינה. We're going to talk about two ages. We'll see, it's nogea to זקינה also. We're going to learn by זקינה. It's nogea to next. זקינה, you'll learn about it. איזו היא זקינה? כל שקורין לה אמא בפניה מחמת זקנותה. Just say she stopped seeing. I don't know what you're talking about. She went to the doctor, the doctor told her she's a זקינה. What kind of a—what is this? What's a זקינה, what people call a זקינה? You need to tell me what a זקינה is. She stopped—she's 35. No, maybe. It's exactly what I just said. What happens in a case she stops seeing when she's 30? It's exactly what I just said. It's exactly what I'm talking about. So you're proving what I'm saying, exactly what I just said. Are we talking about mesulekes damim, or are we talking about a certain— Age group. Not even an age group. Old and young. That's exactly what I want. Could you imagine דין שולחן ערוך? מה קוראים זקנה? You know, קוראים זקנה? תביא לי סבתא, תביא לי... That's זקנה. What's that? That's זקנה. She looks like... Go to a doctor and see if she looks like his dama. What are you talking about? כל שקוראין אותה... Yeah, they call her in the street a זקנה. Can you imagine? That's halacha. You want to know if you're allowed to live with her and you have to worry about her? Depends what they... They call her an old lady. Don't worry about it. That doesn't frighten you? That doesn't... What? Something in Turkey, huh? Okay, I want you to pay close attention. Huh? It's not yet about mesulekes dam. When it comes to katnus of mechayeves in halacha, you don't say yemecha konu. I don't believe you say yemecha, because mechtais. Why should you say it? Where you did something and you want to know b'di'eved if you're yotzei, fine. But halachos that are mischayev because of ktanah u'gedolah, it's Yud-Beis. Halachos which are mischayev because of ktanah u'gedolah is Yud-Beis. This is zman. Comes along the Shach, and he says a ma'arech to that. Yud beis is yud bei. V'ktanah. What's ktanah? D'hainu shehaysa pechusah mi'yud beis shanah, l'yomecha. Shelo higia limei ha'na'arim. You would have learned, shelo higia limei ha'na'arim means she didn't have na'arus, which is simanim of gadlus, right? That's not what he's saying. He's saying, I don't want to learn like that. I want to learn that has to do with zman. It has to do with ktanah. It's yemei ha'na'arim. It's not about na'arus. It's about yemei ha'na'arim. It's not about the simanei haguf. Mimeila, let's say she sees or she doesn't see, right? So does it have to do with the isha that she is or not, or mesulekes damim? Let's learn it this way. Let's say she doesn't see. So what's the pshat? She didn't see because—so now we're oker that, like a vest that we're oker? When she doesn't see and we say, okay, the halacha changes, why does it change? So the Taz tells me, ... The Taz says, you know what the pshat is? What she saw was a mikreh. Mikreh, yeah, that's what Shulchan Aruch says. So the Taz says it's a mikreh. V'nizgaleh...

Because since it's ... It's about Isha. It's about her, why she saw she didn't see, and therefore, and therefore we have to clarify if she doesn't see afterwards, so what happened before? So we have to come and say before it was a fluke on her. If you learn ... So there's a special halacha that a ketanah who's kovea vest, so the fact that she was kovea vest, that's mechayev a halacha. That's mechayev a halacha that we have to be choshesh. She became a status of gedolah. What? She has the status of being gedolah, and now— She has the status— No, that's what I'm trying to tell you. I don't hold this is about her being a gedolah. That's exactly what I'm asking you. If she doesn't have sairus, but she sees periods, she is a gedolah. So it goes hand in hand. Go to a doctor, the doctor will tell you that. I mean, the sairus is the hormonal from this. This is what it is. That's what sairus is. So I wonder, halacha l'maaseh, if she sees, but at the same time she doesn't have sairus, is she a gedolah? At the end of the day, is she a gedolah? Not necessarily. It's not— because if it's not about her, shayles it's about nidus and issur and heter, it could have nothing to do with her gadlus. It's a safek on when you have to be choshesh for issur v'heter. So the kvius vest alone is mechayev. The fact that she was kovea, that itself is mechayev. Now that she's oiker, so what is the akirah? The akirah is in her. Was that kir in the vestes? When she’s oiker, is she oiker her, that she doesn’t see anymore? Or dakirah is in the vestes that was mechayev the chash in the first place? The who holds? Shachos tzar? That she’s a regular ketanah, basically, and dasa is no. She’s a stam kedolah, l’gabei vestes, and she uprooted the vest. That’s why she sees next time, the third time, it doesn’t have to be the same. You know, I’ll leave that for different times. I don’t hold like what you’re saying. Okay, so you know what? Write down the following. I’ll give you again the outline of the sugya, and we’ll do it. You hear this? Okay, you ready? Outline of the sugya. Ready? Take down a pen and paper. Outline of the sugya. Everybody take out a pen and paper. Outline of the sugya. Go. Tinokes is the question about her, peirush, mesulekes damim, or it’s about a ketanah, a din ketanah l’gabei vestes. The Gemara calls her a besulas damim, very interesting lashon, a besulas damim. Is it about her, or is it about ketanah? Is it about her, mesulekes damim, or is it about a ketanah? Higia zmana. Is it about higia zmana, or is it about her that she never saw? V'hi ktanah. What happens if she does see? Does she become a gedolah? Could we say she's a gedolah? Okay. Shelo higi'a limei ha-ne'urim, na'arus or yemei ha-ne'urim. What happens if she was makdim one day? It doesn't say this in the halachah. Okay. Im badkuha v'... What happens if we don't know? Also, when you're poresh, when you're oiker, are you oiker her or you're oiker the vest? Are you oiker, ma sheanachnu chosheshim aleha, or are you oiker her vest? If she sees only once every other month, do you need ninety days twice, every other month, or ninety is good enough? Where does the number ninety come from? According to the shitah that her haflagah is ninety-five, where does ninety come from? Because if you mean her, so her vest is at thirty-five, no? If you mean ktanah shero'ah, so we go after beinonis. We go after...

What normal women see, no? No, Rafi, if you mean her, so let's see what her haflagas are. Did she see again or she didn't see again? The machlokes is the Taz and the Shach. This will be underlying work to understand this, okay? Okay, bro. Okay, you'll work. You'll enjoy, you'll enjoy. You hear better a little bit now? The oiker, you don't hear. The oiker her seelah, you oiker her vest.