Hilchos Vestos: A Zekeinah, Mesulekes Damim, and the Chazakah After Three Onos

Transcript

Vechein is mashma, that it's, yeah, vechein, halacha chof ches, vechein. So l'choira the vechein is mashma that it's the same halacha like shelo higia zman haliros. We're soon going to learn in halacha lamed, chazer verasa, dina kedin tinokes shelo higia zman haliros. That's going to be lamed, which is a little strange to me, because I don't understand the—I mean, you're saying vechein, and you're giving the same halachos, so chazer verasa would be the same thing. Why again you have to repeat chazer verasa, dina kedin tinokes shelo higia zman haliros? Unless he meant to say, I don't want to repeat it because of that. Maybe it's just a way of saying I don't want to repeat all the halachos because ayin sham. He's not teaching me a chiddush that it's the same halachos, because that's already taught in the vechein. Vechein skeina has the same halachos. I don't know, because we'd rather we're talking that from here it's mashma that skeina is a din of mesulekes damim, while tinokes shelo higia dama is a psananda halacha. Of course it's mesulekes damim, but it's not so much the siluk hadamim as much as there's no reason to be choshesh, she never had dam. Mesulekes damim is a siba, a woman that should have, a woman that should have vestes. So there's a special ptur called mesulekes damim. So we clarify maybe by higia zmana it's not that way. Chei, l'maaseh the Mechaber says that it's the same halacha. So let's take a look in halachos shechena. Chein, shechena she'avrah לה שלש עונות, משהיא סכינה ולא ראתה, הרי זו מסולקת דמים, ואין חוששת לווסת הראשון. You're not choshesh for her first vest. וקטנה וזקנה אין חוששת לווסת שאינו קבוע. And a ketanah and a zekeinah is not choshesh l'veshet she'eino kavua. Peirush, כל שלא נקבע עדיין ג' פעמים. Taz. Now I don't understand, what is this Rama exactly? I mean, we said this. Isn't this already taught? This is all the halachos, no? By ketanah, we learned this halacha. So what's the repetition? Ketanah and zekeinah. Just say, v'chein zekeinah; it's the same halacha as a ketanah. I don't know what this Rama exactly is. Beis Yosef, b'shem haRaz, but what do you say, Rafi? It's pashut, no? Maybe by zekeinah you should be choshesh. So what, you have to bring tana again? I don't understand what you want from tana. But ketanah you don't have to be choshesh. We learned this. Maybe zekeinah, yes. Maybe. But we learned this already before, that a ketanah is different. We learned this, that ketanah is not choshesh l'veshet she'eino kavua. So just say it. I don't know. V'chein zekeinah she'avrah לה שלש עונות, הרי זו מסולקת דמים. And just say the Rama, v'einah chosheshes לווסת שאינו קבוע. I don't understand what the repetition is. What do you say, Rafi? What do you say, Daniel? What do you say? 100%. Elon, what do you say? No. This is skena. This is the starting now, skena. That's chav tes. What we mentioned, in contrast, we were trying to show one parallel to the other, because of the v'chein. L'maaseh, it is parallel. But for some reason, u'ktanu skenei, echeshoveh she'eina kavua is very strange to me. Let's take a look a little bit in the Etzem Halachah. V'chein skena she'avrah shalosh onos, mishi hiskinah v'lo ra'asa, harei ze mesulekes damim. Now there's another halachah: eizi skena, what's called a skena? I don't see, there's a separate halachah. I don't understand what this is. This should have been in brackets over here. V'chein skena, what's called a skena? I mean, what, there's a special halachah what's called a skena? Pilei ployim to me, pilei ployim. What are you saying, Daniel? Pilei ployim, huh? No, it's like strange halachos. These are three separate halachos here? Three seifim? You know, you can only say that you learned a hundred seifim this way. Break up every word in the Mechaber.

Make it into its own seat. I don't understand. I don't see. This is eizeh skeinah is another halacha, and then chazrah v'rasa, dina k'din tinok shechol. What is all this? It's all one halacha, l'choira. Maybe not, maybe not, rabosai. Maybe there's something else going on here, yeah? So let's see what that halacha is. Skeinah she'avrah לה שלש עונות משהסכינה ולא ראתה, הרי זו מסולקת דמים. So here she was oiker. The story here is that there was three that passed by and it was oiker. Now let's say she wasn't a skeinah, she was oiker. What would be such halacha? What would be such a case? Really? Let's say she didn't see three months straight. She passed three, three zmanim. Let's say her zman is, let's say chaf tes, and she passed three of them. So what happens? For what? If she sees again. If she doesn't see again, she's finished, right? No, akirah if she saw on different days. I'm asking, let's say she was oiker her veses. Three months she hasn't seen. She'avrah לה שלש עונות, וולא הסכינה ולא ראתה. So I want to know, what happens in a regular case, regular woman? She's called, I mean, nothing. There's nothing to be choshesh for, no? The question would be if she sees one re'iyah. Oh, so the shaylah is, and that's what the Rama is talking about: קטנה וזקנה אין חוששין לוסת שאינו קבוע. Because he's talking about with one more reason. What was the Mechaber talking about? This is a... huh? And she was three times oiker it, so— Oh, you're talking about that she saw again? You think that she's talking about that she saw again? I don't know. Yeah, let's see the Beis HaRishon. Hainu k'shelo chazrah likviusah harishon, but she saw something. Yeah, she saw something. Can I say a chiddush? I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. Can I say a chiddush? You know, I mean, I don't see anybody arguing here. I don't see anybody explaining. Maybe it's such a davar pashut. What do you mean, not different times? You want to say she has to have three shinuyim? Three shinuyim, meaning? Yeah, but that's only because she did see. What if she doesn't see at all? So she's still here. What if she's here? She has nothing. She wasn't shinah three times. It's not called an akirah. I'm asking. What if someone never sees? You want to say that? So what is an akirah? I don't know. What is an akirah? If not, akirah comes out by stam. Okay, so I want you to write this down. I want you to write down the following yesod. I want to write. I want you to write down the following in your sefer. I'm claring, I'm claring that there's two types of akirah. There's an akirah on the ... and then there's an akirah on the isha. Not seeing three months, not different days, but not seeing is an akirah on the woman. The akirah on the woman needs to have a pshat. Why? Why? It can't just be an akirah on the woman. There has to be a reason why she's a mesulekes damim. That's why it's a special halacha by zakein. Because she doesn't see. She's 20 years old. She stopped seeing. Yeah. I don't know. She's still there. She's not pregnant. They checked out. Nothing's wrong.

Maybe she'll have to be chayshish. Yes, I'm trying. I'm saying this. I'm proving it to you. I'm talking. So m'meila, it comes out gargeshma. You don't need a story that she saw again here, because otherwise then the Rama is not saying anything. The Rama is saying what? A pshat in the Mechaber? I mean, what is the Rama? I mean, the Rama is the Mechaber. I'll tell you what's bothering me. I have tremendous heartache when I read this, and I'm saying to myself, what does Kein have to do with this? She didn't see for three months. She's a mesulekes dam. She's finished, this whole story. So what's the chiddush that maybe, kei she sees again, right? Kei she sees again, right? So therefore, since she's a skeinah, so therefore she was never kovea, and therefore, and therefore, and therefore, right? I mean, isn't that a lot to do with the Chazon Ish, who lest if by katanah if she has to see again, right? And a chinami, right? The noseh, according to the Taz, that's good, right? Because she saw again, but who cares? According to the Shach, if she saw again, it wouldn't change anything. She'd still be not kavua, right? So according to the case of the Shach, it's a story where she didn't see again. According to the case of the Taz, where she did see again. So I'm telling you that I think that the pshat in the Mechaber has nothing to do with seeing again. The pshat in the Mechaber and the Chinami is about saying that she doesn't have to be chayshish for the original ones. Stam, mutzlat to be choshesh k'vesh eina. Maybe. I don't know. I'm clarifying. This is what was going through my mind. In other words, because the way siluk damim works, siluk damim works, it has to be a pshat in the siluk dam. You can't be stam, shem salek es damim, huh? Let me repeat myself. V'chein zekeinah, sold to a zekeinah, an older woman. She'avru aleha shalosh onos. What do I have to do with zekeinah? What about any woman? I don't say any woman who doesn't see a period for three months, so she's finished, no? So it's over. What do you want should happen now? So I'm saying that the story over here is that she takkeh did see again. She saw one more time. So the chiddush is you don't have to be choshesh. Bervi, v'af al פי כן lo chashina. Why? Because that's what he's trying to say: ein chosheshes l'vesh eina kavua. Because now that she's a mesulekes dam, she has to be choshesh. A regular woman would have to be choshesh, right, when the fourth time came. Again, let's start again. Let's start again. Again, a woman in her 25-year-old, she's 25 years old, and something weird happened, that for three months she didn't see, and she was a kavua like you never saw. Didn't see. And you can't attribute it to anything. We don't know. Okay. So l'maaseh, we could come and say she was hokatah vest. Choreshi, yeah, katah vest, yeah. So what's now? What's supposed to happen? So the Mechaber is mashma that it's only by a zaken, this. I don't see it. It's only by a zaken; it should apply even not by a zaken. So I answer you: yachol lihyos, yachol lihyos. The story here is they saw again. Harishon, hainu shelo chazru likviusa, bereishis, meaning she saw but she didn't see. That's what he means. Eino choshesh l'vest harishon. But if she starts seeing again, then again it's a story, right? I l'maaseh, it's only one time, so eino hachi nami. That's what the Rama is saying: uktanus kein, eino choshesh l'vest she'eino kavua. The Rama is saying that she doesn't have a fixed vest. L'choira. You don't worry about the vest, the previous vest, the kavua. What about the new vest? Also not. And if you look, he says, zen isbaer le'eil hu bichlal divrei haRashba. This is all the same thing. There's one big Rashba, okay? So the Rama is bringing you down, be'shem haRashba, okay? Yeah, Raffi? Good? What would be by a regular woman in such a case, shechazra liros? So you have to be choshesh l'vest she'eino kavua. Zeh pshat hapashut. Od ilma. You think you're saying—

I'm not saying, I don't know. I don't think so. No, I don't think so. So far there's no machlokes yet. If you talk about it a next time, then there's no machlokes. I don't know, so that's why I'm asking. What did the mechaber mean? I dilma. Or maybe we could come and say the mechaber meant that you didn't see it next time. You didn't see it next time. Don't worry about it, leave it alone, it's finished. A regular eish in such a case would have to. She didn't see anything. She didn't see for three months. Yeah, nothing. So she's choshesh for the previous. You still have to be choshesh for the previous date, ke'eino kavua, because she wasn't oker by seeing on a different day. So it means four months later she will be. Right. Whatever, it's called. Maybe. I don't know, maybe. I'm saying a good svara. I hold I'm saying a moredike sevara. Muberes stam is shelo. Muberes is different, because muberes call them mesulekes dam. That's called a mesulekes dam. Whatever the day is, twelve of the months, she keeps on twelve, twelve, twelve, till she finds days that oker those days. מה אין בשאין לה קבוע? מה אין בשאין לה קבוע, אבל באישה רגילה אתה גם לא תגיד את זה, אין לה קבוע. But if it wasn't again, it's by a kavua. So anyway, it's nigmar. Why? Could be, in order to have a din of mesulekes damim, there has to be a reason for it. Skeinah. That's pshat, vchein skeinah, and also a skeinah. With this, I understand the chiluk between a ketanah and a skeinah. They're both called mesulek dam, which is really what I told you last time. They're both called mesulek dam, but one is, pshat is, didn't have to see, and one is mesulek damim taken away. A regular isha by not seeing is not called a mesulek dam. A ketanah is called a mesulek dam by not seeing. A skeinah is that the ziknus is a din to be mesalek the dam. A ketanah, the pshat is, we don't know that she should see. So kol zman it's not cheshbin to see, ... The skeinah is the other way around. The skeinah, the pshat is, a regular isha in such a case would still have to be choshesh, and the din skeinah gives her a din siluk dam. The din skeinah gives her a din siluk dam. Let me say it again. I remember where Rebbi brought the raya over there, it was mashma skeinah and ketanah together. Right, because it's mashma that it's the same. No, there was a reason. He says to give a reason. He says because the beresen minika, but kol every second something is mekaneach the dam. Right. Ketanah and skeinah, the age is poshut such that there is no dam to be mekaneach. Right. So I want to say a little different. We said it. We said that skeinah and ketanah is one way. No, but you can't say one way because ... Exactly. I hold that there's a chiluk between skeinah. We'll see there is a chiluk. In Chazara in that shiur, their chiluk, only because she's coming out from a chazkas ra. So that's how you want to say it. I'm saying it more or less the same way. One is never had. One is a siluk dam before you had, and one is a siluk dam after you had. Not the same siluk dam. That's what I want to tighten. Now I want to learn with you guys, okay? So the halacha is, eizu hi זקנה? Kind of shaila is eizu hi זקנה. What's called a זקנה? What do you mean, she's a מסולקת דמים, she's an old lady, stop seeing. What's every woman is different? What's the difference? I mean, you see a woman at a certain age stop seeing, and you attribute it to—goes to the doctor, the doctor says your menopause is at 40, and yours is at 43, and yours is at 48, yours is at 52. I mean, it has anything to do with the אישה? Of course it has to do with the אישה. What kind of eizu hi זקנה? כל שקורין לה אמא בפניה. What is that? I don't even know what it is. קטנה is also כל שקורין לה קטנה. Now what makes it even more strange, the Gemara brings down that there's actually two things: כל שקורין וינה מכבדת, כל שקורין היבושה, and there's a whole machlokes how we—

Pasken. Does the Mechaber pasken like Rav Papa? Does he pasken like the second shita? He did the Beis Yosef a little bit, so let's do it inside. I want to see it, because to me, to me it makes it even more bizarre. It's bizarre. The whole thing is bizarre. It's not bizarre to you? Why not? I don't understand why it's bizarre. Because it depends on the age. What does it have to do with age? What does it have to do with she's embarrassed? So what happens if she's not embarrassed? What does that have to do with embarrassment? What are you talking about? It's an age thing, like a katan. It's not about embarrassment. And what? You tell me looks determines whether she... because she looks is going to be a sign to her age. But if someone is 55 years old, she's צעירה, but she looks like she's 30 years old. And she's very makpid, and she looks like she's 30 years old. So imagine, let's say a woman is 60 years old and she went for plastic surgery and she looks great. Not plastic surgery. Not that, not that. Long as not plastic surgery. Let's just say someone is naturally beautiful, she takes care of herself, and she's still healthy. She'll be 100 years old like that. She's still healthy. I don't know, strange stuff. I don't know. Ilan, to me, to me, it's bizarre stuff. And not stam busha and makpedes, and there's two gedarim. One is busha and one is makpedes. Any woman is makpedes, if you call her an alte kaker. Every woman's like that. What do you mean? I don't know. You understand the gedarim are such thin lines, and every woman's different. Some women like to be called bubby, and some women, if you call her bubby, they'll kill you. I don't know what you're talking about. What do we say? That's a halacha, Shulchan Aruch, that niddus and chazakas niddus has to do with that. Purely pshat. Okay, let's read the Beis Yosef. That I like, you see? That's avru, that's a metzius, that's a biological cheshbon. Continue. Huh? No, but do you see the avru lagimmel amos? There's a biological, and there's a makes sense. You can... Once she became a zakeinah, she entered into the stage of ziknah, and those three things... And the problem is, what is ziknah? Then you have this whole thing of... So that doesn't make sense. No, what I'm saying is like this: if the avru gimel, you hear, and we can attribute it to ziknus, then I hear it. Wait, you're missing my point. My point is that if it's coming from the fact that it's avar, and you can fataytch it because it makes sense, then it wouldn't make enough... if she's boisher, she's not boisher, she's makpid, she's not makpid, that makes sense. You can attribute it. She's a young lady, but she's not in her early menopause. What does that have to do with it? A 20-year-old girl statistically is not going to have menopause, but a 50-year-old woman is going to have menopause. So you look at the statistic, what to do with what she looks like, what she's makpid or people call her, what are you talking about? Again, I don't think body age, body age has to do with beauty. Body age has nothing... Again, looking at her beauty, looking at how many wrinkles she has. So how old is she? Does she look like a grandma to you or not? It's very simple. I'm not saying she's ugly. She could be ugly when she's 12 years old also. I don't care. And it has to do with makpedes. What do you mean makpedes? Yeah, but let's say she's makpid, so that's a halacha. Let's say she's a meshugeneh. So give me an age. What kind of halacha is this? There is no age. Some women can be 80 years old. So how do you maaseh, do you measure it? That's exact. There is no... you can't say age. So what kind of a din is this? What kind of halacha is that? Doesn't make... But it looks like, but you can't tell. Yes, it will, but that's the problem. You can't tell. There is, there's a geder. She looks old to you? Yes, that's it. She looks old to who? Most people would call her grandma in the street. Most people. Now, what is that? That's subject to controversy, right? Whatever it is. I mean, whatever it is, is that... Most people would call this 35-year-old lady a grandma. That's it. Is that old? Does it make sense? It makes sense. I don't know. Because she has this old look, therefore her cycle of blood is going to change. Why? Her body... She has a hard life. She had a hard time finding a shidduch. She's 35 years old and she had a bad, bad mazel. People call her grandmother. It's over? I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see how halacha uses this. Why don't you give me an age? I don't know what you're talking about. Give me a biological age, a certain age biologically. You should say, what's called a halacha bifnei atzmo, what's called a zakeinah. I don't יודע. Okay, go ahead, read, yeah.

Amar Rabbi Yehuda: kol shechavroteha omrot aleha zkenah hi, Rabbi Shimon omer: kol shekorin lah ima, ve'eina boshah. Now what, an ima, even means grandmother, I guess, also, no? Yeah. What? I thought they used to call... Zkeinah is old, and ima is, I guess, the bubby. Tell me, what happens if he calls her bubushka and she's okay with that? I mean, that's not bubby, it's not ima, it's something else. What? Oh, depends what country you come from. It's nitchadvarim l'shiurim in a weird way, in a very weird way. Continue. Chad amar kol she'eina boshah, chad amar kol she'eina makpedet. Makpedet, yeah. Ve'nir'eh dehalacha k'Rabbi Shimon. Not k'minah sheboshah ve'eina makpedet. That has to do with the person. What are you saying? I don't get it. No, she's embarrassed because she really doesn't look that way. What? It's reuyah l'hakpid, reuyah l'hitbayesh. It's nothing to do with her. So it's reuyah l'hakpid, reuyah l'hitbayesh. Tell me, the 35-year-old is not reuyah l'hakpid, not reuyah l'hitbayesh, even though she looks like it. She shouldn't be under that category. No, but her age, she shouldn't be... We're going in circles. It's the same thing. Okay, he understands, so okay, no problem. Continue, go ahead. Strange, that's a strange halacha. Go ahead, yeah. Nir'eh shehaRambam posek k'man d'amar kol she'eina makpedet, ken paska Rambam, perek tet meHilchot Ishut. Right, so that's how the Rambam paskens, whatever. Go ahead, yeah. Docheh halacha because we don't understand the metziut of what used to be. Just because I don't understand how in those days the metziut was that people were able to be bochen who's a zkeinah or not, therefore I'm supposed to be... So now you're saying chiddush. You're saying that those days was better eyes. I don't know, is that what it is? That's why today the poskim are, since we don't do this anymore, so we have to be kovea a zman. But otherwise there was a metziut that they did know the difference. They had better experience, you're saying. They were able to tell. Just like by marot. We don't know marot, so... All right, maybe saying a vort. Maybe saying that you looked at a woman, you knew right away how old she is. Okay, go ahead, yeah. ... Okay, continue, go ahead. Tell me, did they have medical tests for this in those days? I just want to know. Let's say today's times, that we have medical tests to find out if she's menopausal. Will all these halachas apply? I didn't see this the books talk about it. Did they talk about that today's—they give ages, they're busy with the ages. Why don't you go to the doctor, find out, what's the shayla? She's going through menopause. I said it's a test. I don't know, it's not a big deal. Menopause can go for ten years. Whatever it is, so whatever, you go to a doctor. The doctor says it, she looks dumb because she's a ... What's your problem exactly? He can't know that. A doctor can't know that. Why is he in the process of menopause? How is he supposed to know when the ... is going to be closed? He doesn't know that. Again, she's an ... dumb and she's a ... Based on symptoms he can say you're going through menopause. Whatever it is, but she's an ... dumb. The story is that she's an ... dumb. So the ... part, I want to know about the ... part. Right, but menopause she can see once every three months, every eight months. So how can you compare that? But now we're talking about a ... dumb, and a ... dumb means menopause. That's what it means. Menopause is to get to the ... dumb, the way I understood it. The process of menopause is to get to the state. Whatever it is, a ... could be told. Medically we could find out if she is not bleeding because it's over. We can find out? I don't know. Yeah, a hundred percent. Of course you can find out. Okay, so I'm telling you, you can find out. My question is, does the ages make a difference when we can know the metzius? What do you say, Daniel? How do you pasken? Every person is different. Yeah, but every person. Every person goes to his doctor. What do you think? No? She's not going to see the ... three times before going to the doctor. The what? Even before going to the doctor, she's not going to see ... She's not seen. She's going for checkup and says, Well, by the way, you should know, you're never going to see again. That's right. For the first time like that? Yes. He asks the doctor, how does he know that? How does he know that? I don't even know how menopause works, but let's say he's told you. So you need to find out how he knows, just like any other halachah you have to ask him. What do you mean? It's called a medical. What do you mean? It's a medical procedure. And what if there haven't been instances where she did see afterwards? We know that? This is without shaykhes. I'm asking pashut. The fact is you could know, and I'm asking, do you still have to be busy with what she looks like, and today that we don't know what she looks like, the age? Don't you think it's a little weird that there's five different years of when it's supposed to be, if it...

It's 45, 50, 55, 60, 60, 65. That's halacha to you? I don't know, that's weird. What a skein is. The metzius of a menopause, when it stopped bleeding, you have five shitas. I think it depends on the time, on the history. Oh, so you mean each guy was in a different history, you mean? You mean Reb Nissim Karelitz and Rav Wosner, and then the five different shitos is from different years, different shchunos in Bnei Brak. It depends on how the husband's learning. If the husband's learning shtark, so the wife is menopause when she's 140 years old, like Sarah Imeinu. I don't know, it's weird. I'm listening to you and I'm saying to myself, you're not being honest. You're not learning. I don't know, it's weird information you're telling me. It's unprocessable information. I have for some reason have a feeling that because we don't know exactly when it stops, so the chashash, the length of the chashash will be some 50, some 55. That's only because we don't know when it's going to stop. Even the doctors don't know. So you have to, since it's b'geder chashash, you have to know how far we'll go with that chashash. Some will say 50, some will say 60. So where does that come from? What, they went to a doctor and they sat there? Because nobody knows. It's based on data? What's it based on? Also, this is a new thing called personal experience. ... He wants to tell me a certain rav paskened, but he said the reason why I'm paskening like this is because that was my experience. I don't know, are they saying from their own experience? Maybe. It's weird halachos going on here. I don't know, it's very strange to me. Very, very strange. Very, very strange. So let's start from what bothers me l'chatchila. Okay, so how do we pasken? It's not even clear how we pasken. באיזה הזקנה... Right? What is a skeinah kol? So the Ramah puts in, sheskeinah kol kach sheruyah. So this is what the Tosafos. So what the Mechaber didn't hold of is Tosafos, where he explains it. Ah, zikna kol, sheskeinah kol kach sheruyah. I don't know what this is. Shekarna l'ima before now, machmas ziknus. Now what is the eino chosheshes? Does eino chosheshes mean she's not embarrassed, or eino chosheshes means she's not makpid? Lo katuv busha v'lo katuv... The two words that the Rishonim and the Gemara tell us, for some reason the Mechaber eluded them — not busha and not makpid. What is it? Chosheshes. So what does the Taz say? Yeah, nu? Eino chosheshes b'beis Yosef — maybe, go read the Taz, b'beis Yosef maybe plukta. The Beis Yosef and... Ramban. V'nir'eh li b'divrei haTur vhaShulchan Aruch, kasav eino chosheshes, mashma davka eina bosha. M'meila mikri skeinah ela ad shelo tachush klal, afilu b'derech busha, hainu l'chumra, sheaz davka mikri skeinah. Oh, l'chumra. Wow. What does he mean by l'chumra? So the whole busha is l'chumra? It was the reason why... So I'm saying, the busha is a shitah chumras, or anachnu nachmir v'nagid ad shehi busha. Right. Is it that we're trying to be machmir to the busha part, that even though... So whatever you tell me, I don't care. However you like to say it — Beis Yosef, the Tur — whoever you want to work on. Is he telling me that it's what? Is he telling me chosheshes means chayish? It's like a chumra? It's a chumra שאנחנו הולכים אחרי הבושה. היא מסכנה, אבל היא עדיין מתביישת, אז אנחנו לא נחשיב אותה למסכנה. וזה חומרא? Oh, wait, you didn't say it good. אנחנו מחמירים, or that's the shita machmeres. And he said differently. So it's machlokes you and him, huh? He's wrong. Rafi became very— maybe the yahrzeit should write about you these days. He's wrong. He's wrong. You like that. I like that. How do you know he's wrong? Maybe he's not wrong. Maybe you're wrong. He's touching words. Yeah, but I want to know where the chumra is. Like, מקרי סכנה אלא עד שלא תטוש, אפילו בדברושה, היינו לחומרא. How about, how about tell your chiddush that we only say she's a skena l'chumra, v'lo l'kula. How about that? Who says? Someone says that, right? I guess Rafi's wrong, huh? Okay, so go show him who says differently, because from the guy—

He's wrong and he's right. So show them the other people say like him. Go ahead, read it. Read it. Chumra doesn't mean lachmir l'boisha. That's how they learn chumra. Go ahead, read it. Go ahead, read it. No. The l'chumra is the busha is the chumra d'geshita, or we'll be chay, in other words, chosheshes, we're gonna pasken l'chumra and say it's ad shebusha, huh? Okay, so ... read what it says, no? No. The crew. What's that you would say? ... אומר, ... אומר, ... משמעותה לא לשון כמאן דאמר ... דלא ... אבל אנחנו עוד לא מבינים מה ... אנחנו עדיין בבתז. Go ahead. No. Yeah, read the shita. Okay, could you read the shita that's only l'chumra v'lo l'kula? It's like ... vesh'eina kavua and vesh kavua, no? If we say she's a grandmother l'chumra, yeah, that she's still not called a grandmother l'chumra. So the pshat would be is maybe what's ... to the vestes, that you have to keep a vesh'eina kavua maybe. Maybe that's what it means. What does it mean? What is it referring to? Nobody has it, huh? What? Okay, so read it. Read the Tosefos. Go. Read. ... זה ודאי אינו משמע ... But the word doesn't mean that, but he's saying more. They're saying l'chumra and l'kula. Go ahead, Nu? You have your Avnei Shoham over there? So look at it, fine. ... But everyone learned that the Taz אומר שהם פוסקים לחומרא. I don't know. I don't have the sefer. I have it, but I don't... You have it? You have it? You have it? Okay, let's go weiter. Let's go weiter. Let's go weiter. Let's go weiter. Chazra, chazra v'rasa, right? She went back and she saw. Chazra v'rasa. Dina, yeah, you have it? K'din tinokes shehigiya zmana liros. Whose sefer is this?

Okay, now. Is it mamish kedinah? Is it the same halacha takah? Yeah, is it the same halacha? Yeah. So what does mean, chazaras hadin k'din tinok sheligia zmano liros? That's mamish what the Grain says, mamish what we spoke about. That's it. This is it. Okay, Rafi, read the Biur HaGra, mem-hei. Read it slowly. No, no, sham u'kemo shechasan. Go ahead. Hey. Mem-hei. Okay. By the way, because divrei ha-meikel, k'ves. See the Grain? Because kedivrei hameikel, deveses d'rabbanan. What is that? Because we pasken l'chumra l'kula, loi kataz, because kedivrei hameikel. Right, it's because kedivrei hameikel. Not that we say that we pasken; it's only l'kula. But it's we pasken. But we chose one guy, bein l'kula bein l'chumra, because he's the meikel. Okay, let's read it inside here first of all. This guy: ... hu hadin l'ktanah u'skeinah. Yeah? What is that? What is this? ... So the v'chein skeinah is also by ktanah. It's going back on this word, v'chein skeinah. Right? V'hu hadin l'ktanah. Mem-hei, it's going to the beginning, v'chein skeinah. This halachah of kol shalosh onos is hu hadin l'ktanah. Wait a minute, u'skeinah, kol shelo kavah veses, harei hi k'me'uberes u'menikah. What is that? ... Kemo shekasuv b'Masnisa, v'ein chiluk beineihem ela b're'iyah shniyah. What does that mean? Huh? ... Next seif. ... Ein afkamina l'veses ela b'skeinah. Kol shehifsikah pa'am achar pa'am gimel onos, p'sulah; ein afkamina klal ela b'lo higi'a liro'os. So she giluis, she gives man avru, like we learned daf. That's what the Gemara wants. The Gemara is saying this. Yeah, that's what the Gemara is saying. The Gemara says like this. The only nafkamina between them is b'riyah shniyah. What does that mean? That if she sees again, ela b'riyah shniyah. Like we say in lamed aleph, chazru liros b'ones ketanos. By psulah niskeinah, ein nafkamina linyan veses, ela b'skeinah. Yeah, that's the pshat, because a regular woman has to go back. A regular woman still has to be choshesh. The same story by a regular woman, you still have to be choshesh. She's not a זקנה. A regular woman, you still have to be choshesh. Again, by a regular woman, and you see again by זקנה, and I said you're right, by a regular woman, you still have to be choshesh. It doesn't change anything. If she's a mesulekes dam, it doesn't change.

Yeah, it doesn't chase, not to be chayish for it. It's only by skena; that's what the goyim are saying. Ein afkamina l'inyan vest ella b'skena. The whole shaila is by vest, not by skena. Okay, let me tell you what's going through my mind. I know we're going to see if we can pasken. I'm on aleph, b'soch. We may need to be mezayev; it's a different one. I'm not going through lamed aleph. That we're going to do Thursday. Chazar l'ires bainos kan shois, l'mud l'ires roibem. Chazar — that's what it is. Vest aflog chazra lkadmusa, ti aflog... so she goes back, afilu paam achas. So what does he mean? Yeah, so what'd he say? Yeah, is everybody with me? Everybody's lamed aleph? I'm sorry, I meant lamed beis. I'm sleepy. Lamed aleph is what we're supposed to do today. Right, so it comes out that there is one afkamina: chazar l'ires bainos ktanos shois l'mud l'ires roibem, so then it's chazar kvius harishon. Im bshaar vestes, afilu paam achas, kezeh kadmusa shenizgalah, shedilga rishon lo silik dameha. Mashein kein by ktana, she's not chozer, okay? Shedilga rishon lo silik dameha, haya mikra. Uvzeh chamor din haskena midin haktana shelo higia zmana lires. So why is it that way? It has the same halacha, but it's different. So what's the pshat? Like I said, that's what I want to taina. It's a different din of siluk dam. There's one din of siluk damim. The pshat is there's no reason to be mechayev. So mikra is not good enough for me. What's it going to help me? Maybe it's just a mikra, maybe it's not a mikra. You don't know to say that she has to watch. Once there is a reason to say that she has to watch, so the hafkaf that has to be real. So kol zman you don't have a clear hafkaf, then you can't say it. Where you're working that it's to make a chiyuv, so a siluk dam tells me don't make the chiyuv. But where the siluk dam is to be mafkia chiyuv, then it has to be a barur. It can't just be something we can say it's mikra בעלמא. It can't just say that it's a mikra בעלמא. Again, let's read it inside. You ready? Yeah. חזרו לראות, בעונות קטנה שהיתה למודה להיות רואה בהם, חזרו קביעותה הראשונה. ... חזרו ... תי ... כמו שהיתה למודה תחילה, ואם בשאר וסת אפילו פעם אחת חזר, ... שארע נתגלה שדילוג הראשון לא סילוק דמים. It's niglah that it's not a siluk. ובזה חומר דין הזקן מדין הקטנה שלא הגיע זמנה עדיין. Now what does he want, בזה חומר? What does he want with—? It's complicated. More chumrah. It's more— more—. Chumrah doesn't mean complicated. It's a chumrah in the din. Well, why is it a chumrah in the din? What do you mean? It's just a different din, no? It's the same din, but it's a— there's a chomer in the din of siluk dam. It's a different din. The din of siluk dam is different. Because one needs a siluk damim, which is chiyuvi. One needs a hafka with the real din siluk damim, while the other one just needs that it's not muchach, and therefore her siluk dam is good enough even if it's not 100%. It's a chumra in the din. Okay, now I'll tell you what I want to. If the pshat is that by a ketanah there's no reason to say she has, so the whole reason to mechayev it is the fact that she saw. So kol zman it's not a briur'sdika seeing, so you can't be mechayev, right? Kol zman she'ein lecha cheshbon berurah v'chiyuvit l'chayev, then we're not going to say she doesn't have to. Do we have to attribute the siluk dam to anything? You know, there's such a thing called chazakah she'einah matana. How does chazakah she'einah matana work?

You know chazakah sheyesh imah ta'ina? What's chazakah sheyesh imah ta'ina? Ta'ina makes the chazakah into a chazakah. Do you need it when you're a motzi or when you're a muchzak? I'm saying, when you're a muchzak, do you need it? Do you need it when you're a motzi or even when you're a muchzak? Huh? Let's say you were there three years and you have no ta'ina for it. Let's say if someone comes over to you and says, That shirt is mine, and I'm wearing it. Do I have to explain how I got it and why it's mine? Do I have to tell you anything, or I just tell you, Have a nice day? What do you say, Rav? You don't have to have. Why? Because the chazakah is not to take away from something. Chazakah is to leave it in the status quo. By ketanah is the chazakah to leave it in the status quo or to take it away from something. Silu dam. The fact is three months passed and she didn't see. It's to what? What's the ta'ina? Because she already started to see? You don't need it. Could you first listen? I know you understand, but could you first hear what I'm saying? Because I'm saying something very nice. You maskim it's an interesting... It's interesting, and you're asking that they should all understand it. So then say it over, and then you can say what you're asking. Go ahead. But first get started over from the Mechaber. There's something chomer. It's a chomer. Let's listen to the lashon of the Mechaber. Explain that. סעיף א' says that if the זקנה starts to see the אונת קטנות, even if she sees once, the way she used to see, חוזרת לקדמותה, even with one ראייה. משאין כן קטנה has to rebuild the veset again. Three times. He says that's a chomer in a זקנה more than a קטנה. So you're saying, why is there a chomer by זקנה more than... Because by a זקנה, she's already been seeing for her whole life. In order to be motzi from חזקת רואה, you have to have a strong reason to say she's now finished. Anything that's going to happen that's going to mess up that status, you right away go back to the old status, because the old מציאות is מוחזק. משאין כן by a קטנה, she's מזקקת בסילוק דמים. Even if things happen, right, anything that... any little thing to say that it's not a real חזקה... אה, here she's מוחזקת לא, and then all of a sudden something happened and she started to see, so anything that makes it weird, it's finished, that's all. Now, do I need to attribute a hesber to her חזקה in order to... In other words, do I have to say, well, קטנה doesn't see. Is that important to come and say ktanah doesn't see? What? What? You think you do. That's what you're arguing with me. This is the chazakah herself. She's a ktanah; she higiah l'manuyos. Higiah. She never saw. One time she sees, she's already muzekes. I asked you this question: does the Gemara ever call her a ktanah? The Gemara calls her... The Gemara calls her psulahs dam. There's three types of psulos, three types. Again, there's dayan shaitan. One of them is what? A psulahs dam. What does that mean? Either be that she's small and she didn't see, or she's big and she didn't see. Right, so it has nothing to do with katnus. The fact that she didn't see it, the roi liros, that has to be. No, I'm asking you. So when we say mesulahs dam, the ktanah mesulahs dam, where is that in the four cases? It's in psulahs dam. So you're masking that the word ktanus, the age, is not the issue in the dayan shaitan? Are you masking that for some reason we don't talk about a ktanah, but we talk about a psulahs dam? Okay. By skenah, and this is what I said, I said it's pashut. Skenah...

Because the ta'anis, it's important to establish that she's a skeinah. So I ask you, why is that so important? I said, go to a doctor and see she's a mesulekes damim. When you go to the doctor, he's not telling you she's a skeinah; he's telling you she's a mesulekes damim. The test of the doctor is to come and say that she's not going to see. That's not what we need over here. What we need over here is a halachah: eizu hi skeinah? What's called a skeinah? Because we're trying to establish the ta'ina for the chazakah. That's why we would be cholek to say, v'yesh simanim. Just say, v'isha sheme'odam lo ra'ah, boom, and that's the halachah. Which simanim? Shegila me'enu... lo v'yesh simanim. Sheyesh simanim, who cares about all these things? I like that, because it has nothing to do with katnus; it has to do—because I hold simanim have to do with the period. I explained this to you. I hold that simanim is not about katnus and gadlus. So that's not necessary; she just never saw. That's her chazakah. She never saw, but it's a chazakah asuyah lishtanos, because everybody does see. Everybody sees at a certain point. No, in other words, she's a woman who's supposed to see. What usually happens, either by age or by simanim, it usually comes. So then we have to start being choshesh for the thing that's supposed to come. But in hilchos chazakah, she's still not called a barriah. Masha'en kein by the skeinah, you want to give her a mesulekes damim. But the mesulekes dam has to have a reason. What's the reason? So therefore we have to look to give her a shem that she's a zakeinah. It's not enough to talk about mesulekes dam. Mesulekes dam — you're right, you go to a doctor, you get a mesulekes; he's not going to tell you she's an old lady. That's not what it is. That's what this halacha is about: eizehi zakeinah, re'uyah boisha makpedes. We need that she should have a shem zakeinah. We need she should have a shem zakeinah. Why? Because then it becomes the reason why there's a mesulekes dam. Huh? Yes, yes, siluk dam. Im pa... That's right. And she's going to have a ta'ina with a chazakah. With the chazakah. That's right. So when she comes back with one reason, we don't... because it breaks the ta'ina. That's right. That's right. But she saw again. What do you want? What's... she saw again. Still not maskim? Not maskim? ... סימנים ... That's called a chazakah. We need ta'ina for. That's... she's mesulekes dam. Ta'ina for what? That didn't change. Once she turns twelve, she has simanim, even she didn't see. Let's say from zero to thirteen, she already brought simanim, everything. But I asked you this, kol shebatkuah — I went through this with you — and she has everything. She has... normal girl, plus she didn't see it. Sixteen, she still didn't see. She did not have the same din as an eleven-year-old. Why? ... she still looks like a mesulekes dam. Why did it change? Like you told me, there's no ta'ina. What's the case again? Again, she's fourteen years old, she brought se'aros two years ago, she's... Are you sure about this? Could you find out this is true? ... בין תינוקת שלא הגיעה זמנה לראות, ... ולא ראתה, that's how she called. And what happened by הגיעה זמנה ולא ראתה? It says that one time, and she's already finished. One time. Again, what about doing no one time? Again, because she just... But that, the first time it takes is weaker than the one time that the... I don't think so. That's what I hold differently. I was thinking about that. I hold differently. I hold that by an isha, shegiyes zman liro'os, the one time makes the chazakah. ... I was thinking about what you're saying. I'm one step ahead of you. I was thinking about that. By an isha, higi'a zman liro'os, you don't need a chazakah, because the one time becomes the chazakah. One time changes the chazakah, because you see that she's starting to see, and there's an orech. There's an orech to see. She went out of... everybody won. Daniel, Daniel, I pay you. You want me to pay? I'll pay you. Fight him. Fight him. Take him to the wall and hit his head against the wall, because he's wrong. He's wrong. Listen to me. I knew this was going to come up. The one time by a dayah shaitan...

By higiya zmano is a chazakah already, means she's starting to see. The orech started to come, 100%. Ki shelo higia, so then you need a chazakah. You can't call me. This is a ... Another way how to do this also. That's all. You hear? Okay, so now you chap what I want? That's how I learned. What? What? Don't ... What's the answer? Shem zkeinah, because you have to spell the siluk dam with the name. It has to have a pshat. She's a zkeinah, not stam a siluk dam ba'alma. Siluk dam ba'alma, she didn't see for three months, she still has to keep all the halachos. Saved by ktanah it's a little different. Good? Rafi, yeah? I love you. Let's go. We're doing Rafi, lamed beis. We're gonna do ves b'soch ves. It's a very hot sugya. Ves b'soch ves.