Hilchos Vestos: Veses Kavua and Eino Kavua, Bedikah After the Onah, and Onah Beinis

Transcript

Od yesh chiluk. Od, meaning because before we had in seif aleph a chiluk. Actually seif beis, right? In seif beis we had a chiluk between ves kavua and ves she'eino kavua. So, od yesh chiluk, bein kavaso gimel pa'amim l'lo kavaso gimel pa'amim. Now I have a diyuk over here that bothers me. Why don't you just say, od yesh chiluk bein kavua l'lo kavua? Didn't we say that a kavua is three times? So just say there's another chiluk between a kavua and a not a kavua. Why does it say, l'lo kavaso gimel pa'amim? Does everybody hear what I just asked? Did you notice it? It's interesting, no? Just say, od yesh chiluk bein ha-kavua l'lo kavua, that's all. L'lo kavaso gimel pa'amim, that it wasn't kavua gimel pa'amim. I think there's a lot here. There's a lot here. As we'll soon see, there's a Taz. Taz learns the case a little different. It's not stam a kavua and an eino kavua. So if you pay close attention, you'll see how all the mefarshim learned like the yeshiva shederech. You see? You see? You like my diyuk. How come nobody else makes it? I don't know why. I mean, it's there. Shakavua, just say chiluk between kavua and not kavua. What do you mean, l'lo kavaso gimel pa'amim? There's such a thing as a ves kavua and there's such a thing as eina kavua. She should say, od yesh chiluk bein ha-kavua l'eina kavua. What's l'lo kavaso gimel pa'amim? Anyway, shekavua af al פי שעברה אונסה, v'lo hirgisha, asur l'shamesh ad shetivdok. Cannot be mishamesh till you make a bedikah, the timtza tehorah. U'shelo kavasah — that's shelo kavasah, you see, without kavua, yomim pa'amim. Im higi'a zman haveses v'lo badkah v'lo ra'asah, keivan she'avrah אונסה muteres. She's mutar. Keivan she'avrah אונסה muteres, she's mutar. V'hinei shei lamed yom, dina k'veses kavua, and halachah like a veses kavua. So the Taz comes along and he has a kashya. Af al gav d'besif kuf pei vav pask, b'ein lo veses tzrichah bedikah lifnei tashmish. So how could you come and say muteres? Keivan she'avrah אונסה muteres — it's mashma muteres without a bedikah, right? Because since the af al פי שעברה אונסה v'lo hirgisha, asur l'shamesh ad shetivdok v'timtza tehorah, so when it says she'avrah אונסה muteres, it must be without a bedikah, right? Why can't it be muteres with a bedikah? The teretz is because then it doesn't flow in his words, because the previous case was muteres, so then it has to be that it's less. Could someone explain to me if there's a middle ground here? Af al פי שעברה אונסה v'lo hirgisha, that's asurah. Ad shetivdok. She's asurah ad shetivdok. Okay. And, זמן לא בדקו לה, כיוון שעברה עונה, מותרת. I want to know if there is a difference between a bedikah which is in order to be find tumsa taharah. Very interesting lashon, no? אסור לשמש עד שתבדוק ותמצא טהורה, כיוון שעברה עונה, מותרת. Now, the fact that he doesn't say with a bedikah, it's pashut means without a bedikah, and especially it has to be not like the previous case. But how about, let us say, there's a bedikah and there's a bedikah, different types of bedikah. So maybe, אסור לשמש עד שתבדוק ותמצא טהורה means— okay, let me tell you what bothers me. Is every bedikah to make her not a niddah, or it's just for the issur bi'ah? Why does he have to be me'arech, אסור ל—

Just say she's temeiah. What's asur lisham? Why do you talk about asur lishamesh ad shetimtza tehorah? Just say that she's temeiah. She's not. Asurah lishamesh ad shetivdok v'timtza tehorah. So you want to say because ein hachanami, you're talking about a temeiah. Meaning, I'm saying, is it negea to anything but bi'ah? Is the bedikah only to be matir that she's mutar lishamesh, or the bedikah is to say that she's not a niddah? The wording is, asurah lishamesh ad shetivdok v'timtza tehorah. You hear my question? My question is, is the bedikah rak k'dei l'taherah, or is the bedikah to say that she's not a niddah? In other words, if she doesn't plan on having bi'ah with her husband— Yeah, so maybe it's not. Yeah, that's the question. Halacha l'maaseh, pasken for me. A woman's saying she can't go through this, that the doctor told her not to live with her husband, so she has no intentions of living with her husband. So the shailah is, is she allowed to sleep in the same bed? Is she allowed to touch him? Asurah lishamesh. Why don't you just say tehorah and temeiah? No, isn't that the nidon? Or the nidon is asurah and muteres? You'll soon see why I asked this. Okay, so Al Kol Panim says the Taz. You remember there's two things now. The first thing we're saying to the mechaber, Meiran, is that it's lo kavosah, gimmel pamim, not kavuah v'lo kavuah. Loi kavasa gimel pa'amim. And then in the second diuk, it says, asurah timtza. Talk about tahorah and temeiah. Now talk about maaseh, with the bedikah, without a bedikah. With bedikah she's tahor, without a bedikah she's tameiah. Says the Taz, af al gav d'besif kuf pei-vav, pasuk beis, lo veses tzricha bedikah lifnei tashmish. Now the reason why I speak about it in the Taz, because I could have said very simple. You know this mechaber? This mechaber is to be on the safe side, make a bedikah. It's not asur l'shamesh ad shetivdok; there's a din to be bodek kodem tashmish. So why is it asur? No, I'm saying this, b'ein lah veses tzricha bedikah, that's stam halachah. You need a bedikah before tashmish, fine. Why? Fear. Fear factor. It's not she's asurah kaidem. Who said it's asurah kaidem? Im ani mechayev mishu bedikah, but there's a safek, so you have to make a bedikah. But you're asurah till then? Who said? Again, we're talking about einah kavua. Af al gav d'besif kuf pei-vav, pasuk, b'ein lah veses, ein lah veses, which means no veses. Yesh lah, ein lah. Tzricha bedikah. So meileh I would say very simple. Here the shailah is asurah muteres. There the shailah is l'chayev bedikah. That's all. Of course you have to be bodek. You have to. You should be bodek. You better be bodek. You must be bodek. Whatever word you want to use. But this is not just the should be bodek; this is asurah, which means that she's a nidah maybe. That's why I set it up on the kashya. Now, it was this diyuk that I made in the Mechaber, I'm setting it up on the kash of the Taz. Havanta what we're...? Okay. Answers the Taz: Kan mairi sheyesh lah kvar veses. She has already a veses. Ela sheshinsa achshav b'veses chadasha, and that veses chadasha lo kavsa gimel pe'amim. And what's the story? And that lo kavsa gimel pe'amim, again, she missed one time, and efshar if it's nekar because of that, okay? Which means she had a veses kavua, then the next time she saw something strange, right? And then it was nekar, okay? So the halacha is it's nekar, finished. There's nothing to worry about. You have nothing to fear, okay? But eino chanami, eino chanami, eino chanami, if she's not a kavua... That's the story. That's the case of the Mechaber. Avra v'lo badka, it was finished. Avra, it passed, it never happened. Avra, it passed v'lo badka, which means that that time didn't pass, it didn't happen. Day twelve is not part of her veses kavua, but last time it was twelve, this time was avra v'lo badka, it was finished. So therefore, says the Taz, you don't have to worry about it, okay.

Now, let's see the words inside the Mechaber. Bein kavasa gimel pe'amim, leloi kavasa gimel pe'amim. Are we talking about a kavua? Yes, we are. But this new veses was loi kavasa gimel pe'amim. He can't talk about kavua, not kavua, because then the Taz is not talking. The Taz's story is it is a kavua. They don't want to say, Oy, yesh chiluk bein kavua leloi kavua. According to the Taz, could the Mechaber read, Reb Meisha, could you listen to me? I'm saying a very poshut thing. I know, but you see, I electrify in learning. I'm electric, you know, and it's just starting. I have to tap into every guy, you know? You know, there was a story on the radio of a squirrel that touched electric wire. You heard about it? Yeah, there was a squirrel climbing on one of those electric wires, and it blew itself up because it started chewing against the wire, and it became— you know about it? It became on fire, and it landed on a car, and it blew up the car. This just happened two days ago, right here in the— yeah, yeah, right here in the— in the— what do you call it? The Hamptons. What do you call that place over there? Westhampton. Not Hamptons, whatever. Five Towns. Nobody died. The lady came out, she saw her car is on fire, and on top was a barbecueed squirrel, mamash a barbecue, al ha'esh, huh? Squirrel kebab. A neveilah, a neveilah. What do you call it? Sna'i, sna'i. Kacha tzrichim lilmod Torah. שאדם באמצע זה ממש שורף, שורף, מתחיל לאכול אש. Wire, איך אומרים wire? חוטים של... חשמל. ככה צריך להיות, מתלהב באש, that if you touch something, it's mamish. Okay, now, tell me I'm not saying good. Say, very good. Did your Chinese book say it? No, they don't say that. Yeah. I know, I can't help you, but it's a Taz. It's not my fault that the Taz wrote it. Maybe. With the Taz, the words are... Yeah, what I'm saying is like this. I'm discussing that it's a very strange thing that you talk about, לא קבוע גמור פה. Just say she's not a קבוע, that's all. There's a ויש קבוע, there's a אינו קבוע. According to the Taz, you're talking about that she's a קבוע. The Taz, the story of the Taz, she is a קבוע, but then she started seeing something strange, and that wasn't גמור פה. That's the pshat. אוי יש חילוק בין קבועות, אוי the new re'iyah, גמור פה, ללא קבועות to the new re'iyah. You understand? So since by the new... in such a case, you don't even need a bedikah. Now, what's the problem with this Taz? The problem with this Taz is like really איכה חסר מנפשא, and then the pshat is you have to be a wizard to figure out what the Mechaber is talking about, and that later on he says you should make a bedikah. Here he doesn't tell me anything about a bedikah. It's like all over the place, right? שמעא מדבר על הציור הרגיל. In Kuf Pei Vav he's talking about the normal case. Here he's talking about the not normal case, the case where it's backwards. She's a קבוע, and then he saw something new. But that's what the Taz says, okay. Comes along the Sdei Teirah, and he attacks the Taz, and he says, you see from the diyuk of the last part of the Mechaber that he says there's eino beinonis, that we're not talking about a kavua, because if we're talking about a kavua, there is no eino beinonis. Sdei Teirah. One thing I saw from that, that there's a diyuk at the end to tell me what case we're talking about. I mean, what do you need a diyuk? I mean, it says clearly, Od yesh chiluk bein kevasai l'loi kevas. I mean, the story is clear. Isn't the story clear? תורה is pushy. You have to do something with the kashya. So he says, in your own pshat— No, I understand. So in other words, the— I understand, but in other words— Right, obviously, exact. That's all I— I'm just trying to— You see that he had no problem with sticking this Taz into the wording, even though it's not there, only because the end doesn't fit in. Because then how do you read the halacha of eino beinonis? Okay, those words could have been stuck in, that you're talking about a kavua. That's all I'm trying to say, okay.

Muvan? Seder tairah, it's tomei oinen beis. Comes along the Chavos Daas. He says, Eino chanami, when the oinah, which is a vest kevuah, doesn't come, like in the story of the Taz, wake him up, like in the story of the Taz, you have to keep oinah beis. So you're told, a chiddush, a woman who has a vest kevuah and she shinsa paam achas, shinta paam achas, the halacha is that she has to keep oinah beis. Now let me tell you what stirs inside my heart pain, major pain. That oinah beis she keeps is dina k'vest kevuah? Ooh. Wow. You're not choshesh to the vest kevuah? V'oinah beis— in other words, the Chavos Daas is learning that this is going back on the original. See, pashut, you say it's two different stories. You know how I would learn the mechaber? Story number one is this story with shinah with Taz and everything, and story number two is grada, you should know, oinah beis is a vest kevuah. But because the seder ha'teirah and everybody is jamming the last part of the mechaber into the Taz's beginning, so then it pshatz it has to be attached to the first story that there's an oinah beis, right? But it's not a dina k'kevuah, so then what are you talking— I mean, is it? Does the chavas daas mean that you have to keep the אונה בינית, and that din of אונה בינית becomes now a kavua? It's impossible. Why not? Why not? Okay, so you know what? You tell me why. First of all, what does it mean that it's dina kavua? You have any idea what it means? She checks, she misses. Okay, so there's a pischei teshuva that says that it's not only nekar on three times. That's what it means, dina kaves kavua, that it takes three times of not having lamed to be oker this ... בינית. Is that what it means? Oh, all of a sudden, Rafi... Don't say he says the opposite. Don't say the opposite. It's two shitos. Correct? Correct. She comes along to Levush and see if you gimel, and the Levush says gimel learns not that way. No, what I mean to say, again, so I'm telling you, unless you say that this Taz is going to follow through, that it's not din kavua legabei akiras vest. So that's what I'm just telling you. The Cheshbon has to come out that if you're going to learn this piece of the Shulchan Aruch, which is attached to the first case, so we're talking about a vest shekavua. The only thing is she missed her vest kavua, so now she has to keep אונה בינית, that it's dina kaves kavua only legabei that day it's asur. I see you're looking. Lo muvan? Lo muvan? It's a pashut. אני אומר לך חשבון. עכשיו זה רק חשבון, מתמטיקה. Aleph plus — that's how you say it in Hebrew — plus. Bet is, how do you say, equals shaveh, shaveh gimel. Is that true? Aleph plus beis, okay. B'lomdis loka kach muchach; there's a loka kach science. It's tamid aleph plus beis equals gimel, but b'erech aleph plus beis is a gimel, okay? Now, here, I'm just telling you that this—are you with me?—that this last line, the Chavos Daas says, yes, stick it back into the Taz, because the Shulchan Aruch does it. Why? Because if you miss your vest kavua by one time, then you have to start keeping onah b'eis, k'din shnifla. So I'm telling you, but what does it mean, kavua? Dina k'vest kavua. What does it mean? We're going to talk about what is dina k'vest kavua at the end of the shiur. But just realize, he just means there's two halachos about a vest kavua. One halacha about a vest kavua, Rafi's right, that that day it's aser, even if you're bodek. It doesn't help you to be bodek. Vest she'eino kavua, if you're bodek, it's mutar. Vest she'eino kavua, right, it's aser. I'm sorry, vest kavua is aser. Rather, there's a Shulchan Aruch Harav that says not like that. You know this. But I just—on a vest she'eino kavua, if she makes a bedikah, they're all aser. All of them are aser on the day. Afterwards—I'm sorry.

Okay, okay, let's go on. And the second one, and— and the second one is, and what's the second halacha? That it's nekar b'gimul pamim. So obviously we have to take one of the two in the Chavas Daas, in the Seder Taharah, in the Taz, okay? Which means just that it's that day, not the halacha of akirah, okay? The Nekudas HaKesef, shach, says mystical things, and when I say by mystical, because it's not clear what he means. Seems to be a variety of ways. This is a mesubach; it's not barur. You want to read it? Read it. Go ahead, read his words. Yeah. Over there she has no vest at all. Masha'en kein over here, it's just eina kavua. So there's three things: there's no vest at all, there's a vest she'eina kavua, and then there's a vest kavua. What's a vest kavua? We know, three times. What's a veses she'eina kavua? Has the veses, but every time it's different times. What's a veses she'eina kavua? Never. Okay, so here there's two ways to learn it. Pashut pshat in the nekudas hakesef is that she sees, but she sees mixed up all over the place, right? Meaning, there, there, there, right? But you have an idea of b'erech where. So when you have an idea, b'erech where, b'erech, you're not mechuyav to be bodek. It's a tremendous chiddush. Masha'ein kein, where you have no idea whatsoever, it can come any time, ... then you have to check. The Pri Deah learns differently, haflah. It's talking about a girl that's mamash brand new in the business. She has no idea whether it's the first time, second time, she doesn't know what's going on. ... or after giving birth, whatever. We see, okay, some hold you go back to the old vestes, so let's leave it with techilas re'iyah, you hear? Which means is she has nothing to even base the information on, huh? No precedents whatsoever, all right? Here we're talking about that. Here we're talking about that—no, I'm sorry, kuf pei vav is, right, right, kuf pei vav. D'ayri b'techilas re'iyasa, v'lo nikva shum veses klal. I don't think the pre-day learns the opposite. The pre-day learns that you don't have to worry about anything, fakert. Fakert. The pre-day, it says you don't have to worry about anything. Go ahead. Yeah, pre-day. No, you see, I want to learn that, but that's not what he learns. He learned the pre-day learns the opposite. It's a veset she'eino kavua, but you at least know which days could be, so you have to be bayek. But stam to dream and say maybe every day, you don't have to worry about maybe every day. And I would have learned punkt fakert. I want to say punkt fakert. Okay, so again. Yeah. Listen, listen, listen how he—let me tell you the difference. Od paam. You hear? Listen, listen. You can learn like this. Listen how he learns. This girl has nothing, no precedents.

Why to be choshesh? What are you choshesh for? What, choshesh for every moment she's going to see any minute, all the time, every moment? Mashenkin by veses she'eino kavua, those days, which is alul lihyos. Here, l'maaseh, she sees at twelve, and then the next month she saw fourteen, yeah. Then the next month she saw thirteen, and then the next month she saw fourteen. So it's oiker. But you know thirteen, fourteen, twelve is these days that you have to worry about in her cycles. That's when you need bedikah. Mashenkin if there's no precedence whatsoever, then you don't need a bedikah. I pasken this this week, and that's why I tell you I have such clarity. Let me tell you what I had. Woman called me up with a shaila. She lost her calendar. She lost her calendar. Why she lost her calendar, what does she do? She's graden not a kavua, because if she'd be a kavua, then she wouldn't have such a big problem, right? She lost the calendar. So when you lose the calendar, you have this shach. Everybody sends you to this shach, and then Pri Deah, and then you don't have any precedents, and there's nothing, and it's oiker, and it's finished, and it's gone, and you don't have to worry. What, are you choshesh forever and always? Huh? Again, it all depends on how you learn this nekudas hakesef. Meaning that if you learn the nekudas hakesef where there's no, in other words, whenever there's no day to be choshesh for, meaning it was never in the history, so you don't have to worry about it, right? So they're going to come and say, so she doesn't have to check every day. Right? Oy dilma, the pshat is that this girl has never had anything in advance, never had anything, any present. But eina chanami, if there are days that she's choshesh that maybe could be, then you have to make a bedikah. It's the exact opposite. Again, the nekudas hakesef is like this: she has a vest, but it's eina kavua. What does it mean she has a vest and it's eina kavua? Which means is 12, 13, 16, 18. So when that happens, that she has a vest she'eina kavuah, so you have to be choshesh for those days and make a bedikah, even though it's not an issur. There's no issur on those days, because it was nekar those days. But if she has nothing, if she has nothing, it's not kavua at all, so you don't have to worry, right? I would have said the opposite. I would have said like this, that if she has no history whatsoever, then she has to worry about every day. Then she has to worry about every day. Ma she'ein kein, if she has a history, so the pshat is she just worries about those days. That's— What? No, I'm saying in the nekudas hakesef, there's still to learn it. What I just said. But that's not how the Pri Deah learns it. Pri Deah doesn't learn like that. Pri Deah says— Okay, read, read, read the Pri Deah. Read it inside. Who has, who has? No read, read, huh? So take out the point that you need. He says like this, you know, עוד פעם, אני אגיד את זה בעברית. לא אומרים בעברית, יש איזו סגולה שזה מובן יותר, okay? גם יש לי חבר פה שאני מאוד אוהב אותו. Okay, listen carefully, yeah? השאלה היא תמיד: בלי וסת צריכים לבדוק. אי פה לא צריכים לבדוק. That's the question. התירוצו, כשיש וסת, אבל זה לא קבוע, אז אומר הדקות הכסף שצריכים לבדוק, right? מה כשאין היסטוריה בכלל? So I was learning, אז צריכים לבדוק כל יום, לא רק בימים שקוששים. מה שבודקים בוסת שאינה קבועה, you hear? What's wrong? What's wrong? It's good, no? מה שאין כן, the pre-day learns the other way around. When there's no history, don't worry about it, leave it alone. When there's no history. So everybody learns the pre-day.

That historia, don't worry about it, right? I hold punk fakert. Punk fakert. When there's no historia, you have to worry about it. You have to worry every day and every time lifnei tashmish, you have to make a bedikah. I'm going to cheat a little bit. At the end of the shiur, you'll like it, huh? I know, I know, I know the mashma'os a little bit, but in svara it makes more sense. What I'm saying, but I'll tell you what I want. I hold in lomdus, in lomdus, if you understood all the shiurim I told you till now, it's muvan, and I'm just cheating now, meaning to give it to you a little bit now like this. I don't want to pile on to explain the Taz and the Chavas Daas, which I'll do with this also. Is a veses pashut ta'aser? Is a veses ta'aser? And if there's no oser, so there's nothing to be—there's nothing to aser. There's nothing. I mean, a woman is mutar. The pashtus of a woman, isha is tamid mutar, unless she's a niddah. I'm saying, but in the days of taharah she's mutar. Veses comes along, it's mechadesh an issur. By dilma works the other way around. Veses is lehat—meaning, it's that a woman, kol zman you don't know for sure she's tehorah, she's tamei, which means you can't live with her. You have to first verify her kashrus. Tell me, is all food kosher? To prove in other wives, or is all through treif to prove in kosher? Kol ochel b'olam kasher, ad sheyodim lepuch, or kol ochel treif, ad sheyodim lepuch, sh'ze kasher. Is vestus. Is vestot. Is vestot. Just come and say, by the way, when it's not the vest, it will be matir you. Or the pshat is, no, mutar. So tell me, if a woman has no hysteria, what would be the reason to asser her? What's the chashash over here? But what's it? There's no hysteria, unless you say vesa comes to be matir. Like it? Like it? You should like it, because it's real. It's good. Huh? She has a chazkas taharah, min haTorah, but the chachamim came along and mechadesh a parsha called vestus. The Rabbanan lo mechadesh vestus, vestus, vestus. And you know what the chiddush of vestus is? Shetamid tzrichim lachshosh, or she'af pa'am lo tzarich lachshosh chutz miyom sheyesh chash. That's all. So if a woman has no hysteria, what, she's always aser? She's always mutar? I don't know. Maybe she's always aser. Okay. Chavis daas comes along and gives his own... Oh, tirutzs, oh, tirutzs, yeah? And he says like this: the case of eina beinis that you're all worried about, it's talking about a case of the vest of the trumas hadeshen, by the case of the vest of the trumas hadeshen, which means that she has days that she for surely doesn't see, which means 26 days. We spoke about it. You know it's been a shema you came this day, because this was the thing you spoke to me about. She'ad yom ze vadai lo tireh, ze veset shel hatrumas hadeshen. So when it leaves the 26 days, you call chatzikavu, you call trumas hadeshen, whatever it is, what happens? She has to keep eina beinis. She has to keep. So this is the case. The case is that she's keeping—she's a veset kavua, and the answer is the veset of the trumas hadeshen. Good? You're right, kavua. You're right, she's a kavua, but she's still keeping eina beinis. She's still keeping eina beinis. Now let me ask you like this. Oh yes, sure. The question is, how is she keeping eina beinis if you told me according to the Taz she's a veset she'eino kavua?

Veses kavua. Tirutz is that we're talking about a case where her vest is kavua is the Trumas HaDeshen vest is kavua, which day she will see within, which means she never saw before 26 days. But ein hachanami, days are not kavua, so therefore she has to keep on a bedikah. The kavua is only that she doesn't see for 25 days, that's all. It's not ... this is a new pshat, that the Taz is good. Taz is ... kavua, ... teretz is it's kavua like the Trumas HaDeshen. All right, now let's discuss the case of the Taz then. The Taz is a story of what? Of the Trumas HaDeshen, and then a day or two later, what did she see? She saw a re'iyah. Case of the Taz, the first case, not the ... story. Wait a second. No, I'm saying what happens in case for 26 days she doesn't see, but then she could see 26, 27, 28, right? And then she sees 26, right? And it changes for the next month that she saw 27, so it's nekar b'paam achas, which is what he said, right? What he said, right? So let's discuss that, yeah? It's nekar b'paam achas, yeah? In other words, 24 days she never sees, 25 she could see, but 25, so one month she saw 25, the next month she saw 26, the next month she saw 27, and then 25, so it's nekar, right? That's what it means, shekavua af al pi she'avra onaso v'lo higiasah, but this is muteres. Yeah, this is mutar. Pilei ploi, pilei ploi. Bishlama according to the Taz, the kavua helps you for the eina kavua that it's nothing. But here the eina kavua is not a stirah to the kavua. You're talking about a terumas hadeshen. What do you—I don't understand what the story here you want. You want here that a terumas hadeshen is kavua. The terumas hadeshen's kavua does not help you afterwards. Bishlama in the Taz's regular story, the Taz's regular story is that it's kavua. So the kavua tells me don't worry about the weird one that happened afterwards. But according to the Chavas Daas, that we're talking about the kavua of the terumas hadeshen, so the next one, that's not, don't worry about the weird one. That's his regular eina kavua degavest. How does the kavua that it doesn't come before 25 days help you for when it does come, that you shouldn't worry about one day that's eina kavua? No, it doesn't, because for 25 days—again, his case was she's usually between 25 and 30, right? Punk she saw 20. Oh, but I want to know what happens if, punk she saw 25. What would be in such a case? And the Chinami, the Taz wouldn't be in such a story. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. What's the story by eina beinus? The story by eina beinus is not, is not when she sees. What's the story by eina beinus? Eina beinus is not that she saw within the kavua. But she skipped. She's not kavua. She sees always between, let's say, 20 and... She has a kvius of the trumas hadeshen, right? Is this how he's learning the story of the Taz? What's that? What, what, what, what? Nir'eh kavanaso d'mairi bo'efen shenisbarer... This is a pshat in the Nekudas HaKesef, not the Taz. Taz is clear. He says clearly, it's a real... The Nekudas HaKesef that says we're talking about not kavua mamash and a little bit not kavua, he says that the difference is trumas hadeshen and natilas yadayim. Meaning what? If it's not kavua... If she usually sees more than 20, and whom once she saw 18, that Nekudas HaKesef... Which means he's learning that the trumas hadeshen's case is not a real kavua like. It's a fake. It's a fake kavua, and you still have to keep the einah b'einus. And in such a kavua, what happens? You don't have to make a bedikah.

You have to make a bedikah; you don't have to make a bedikah. Which means if she usually sees over twenty and now she saw eighteen. And she missed it? No bedikah. No bedikah. Why? Because she's usually kavua, trumas hadeshen, kavua for more than... Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You don't know what you just said. If you heard your words that you just said, you'd get nervous like me and start walking on wires. Again, are you afraid or you're not afraid? After the trumas hadeshen thing, are you afraid or you're not afraid? You missed it; you have to make a bedikah? No. You missed the trumas, you missed it. What's the story? You don't need to make a bedikah. Give me the story. Trumas hadeshen, she always sees between twenty and thirty. Twenty and thirty, good. No? And now she saw eighteen. Way before trumas hadeshen. What does she do? Says the bedikah, you missed it, don't worry about it, because it's anyway outside of your shetach that you're supposed to... Right. So you don't have to worry about what? Wait a minute, wait a minute. So you don't have to worry about... Which means is the trumas hadeshen doesn't make that there's a day that we should have to worry about out of it, right? So why onah beinonis? Why are you... Huh? Yes, that's my question. That's what I'm telling you. You missed the story. How does it help you with the bedikah, not with onah beinonis? That's what I'm asking. That's what I don't understand. I don't understand it. Four exits on the Garden State Parkway was this kasha. I don't understand it. Huh? You're bothering me. It's bothering me. I mean, the chashash of אונס בנות is stronger than the chashash of the fluke of eighteen? I mean, I have a very hard time with that. Are you with me? Why? No, you don't understand. This is... What? Why? Where are you going? Huh? You have a doctor? What? Oh, you can't start off with that. You know, I heard in Rebelsky's tape, a good shailah here. Rebelsky's tape, they asked him a shailah like this: if a mother-in-law makes a certain food, if a mother-in-law makes a certain food, and she was not makpid on a certain chumrah, ... You heard this? You heard it? Kitzi goes through a whole thing that it's only b'shaas hadchak and this and that. So the guy asked him, so what would be in this case? So he said, Excuse me, one second, one second. What did you say? Let's—maybe you don't remember the question—that the mother-in-law made the food? That's ... Can't start. You're too far gone. I mean, listen, if he has a son-in-law like you, he must be a real tzaddik. You can take it any way you want. No, I... He was zoche to a son-in-law like him. Okay, good. Be matzliach. Make chazarah. Make chazarah when you come back, yeah? Okay, let's go weiter. I have this problem with the terumos hadashen, that the day ... but the eighteen, don't worry about the eighteen. Kashe li, kashe li l'kabels; it's hard. Okay. Comes along the Chavos Daas, and he says another pshat, yeah. Comes along the Chavos Daas, and he says another pshat, yeah, another pshat, that there's different types of bedikos. There's real bedikos, and then there's imposters. There's bedikah l'ner, u'bechorer b'sadakin. Ah, this is mutar without the real bedikah. Hasheinki, the bedikah that the Mechaber says. Now, whose pshat was—I've said this to you—that, you know, the pshat is that there's a din bedikah, which means l'chatchilah you should go be bodek, but asur l'shamesh the real bedikah, hilchos bedikah. Who says? I mean, maybe you're not mechuyav in that. That's what the Chavos Daas is really saying, that we're mechayev bedikah, but not the bedikah, the real bedikah that would make it or break it. So you make a bedikah; it doesn't have to be bechorer b'sadakin, it doesn't have to be l'or ha-ner. Okay. This is ad kan the different terutzim. What's wrong? What's wrong? No, I mean, obviously, Choref is a real bedikah.

No, so therefore, when you don't really need, meaning in this case, so therefore, chaser l'shama, she just says. Right. All right, make a ... Good. Okay. So it comes out that there's one kasha, and everybody's in a frenzy. All the poskim are in a frenzy. That's when it comes out. Okay, so, Rafi, now I'd like to take off the cheating book, you know, the shitas, and let's discuss higayon. What are they arguing about? I mean, is it all based on the answer to the kasha, the Taz? That's what it is? I mean, that's where it all comes from? Huh? Are they just, I mean, is it all about the kasha, the Taz, and what do you do? So therefore, I'll say this and you'll say that, and we'll say this one, and this one will say this teretz, and that one will say that teretz? Huh? I don't know. You know what bothers me, and I was thinking about it very shtark: where do all the klalim of vestes come from? Who decided? I mean, what is it based on? You know, bameh kami? It's based on choshen mishpat of hareitz l'hachkim, right? Na'aseh b'dinei mamonos. There's chochmah behind it, right? Hareitz milsa d'chasidusa, yekayem milsa d'avis, or it does ta'irus. I don't know, all these things, very good, right? Because what's ta'irus? Ta'irus is not higayon. Ta'irus is pesukim, other ... another nisht. What is vestes? Vestes is the chachamim sat there figuring out what they think possible, oyna beinus, it's shayach and the meiled. She did miss her vest, she didn't miss her vest, it was kavua, it was eina kavua, it changed, she skipped. Is there a pattern to the machloikes in here? What would you say, Rabbi? What do you say? Huh? You hear my question? You know what it is? I spend hours, cases, this case. No, but that's really this case. This case different. This case, this case, no, this case, she saw but she didn't see. She saw but she saw. So it's all sevaras. Each one's coming up with a svara, and the Shach's mechadesh his svara. I mean, they're not brought down in the Rishonim. We just learned five cases, halacha l'maaseh. These are five halacha l'maaseh. Who decides? Shach decides this. And why? Because we have a problem with the lashon of the Mechaber. That's what it is. It's just a miyashev the Mechaber. That's what it's based on. I mean, that's where it's coming from. But it's very hard to believe that we're paskening shailas based on to miyashev a stira in the Mechaber. It's strange, you know. It's got to be something deeper behind. Okay, so let me tell you what I'm thinking. Ready? I want you to think. Does vest talk about the woman and her status? Does vest mechadesh in issur? Again, is vest about a woman? Truthfully, I don't know if you remember, we spoke about this. Is vest about a woman? She is or she isn't, depending on her history. You have a tall lady and a short lady, right? You know what a tall lady is? Because she has 25 inches or whatever, to, say, six feet. You know what a short lady is? You know what a vestes, a kavua, eina kavua is? She's a nidah; she's not a nidah, depending on her vestes, right? Or is vestes shayach l'issur l'ba'alah? Or she says, Lo shayach la'isha im hi, ela shayach la'issur bi'ah. What does that mean? Remember I asked you, how come the mechaber—how comes the mechaber, nu, yeah, how come the mechaber doesn't say tahor and tamei, but rather asur l'shamesh and not asur l'shamesh, muteres? Now I'm going to ask you another question. When you're oiker a vest—another chakirah—when you're oiker a vest, Rabbi, are you oiker the vestet harishon, which means is you obstructed the information patterns that caused you to make the issur in the first place.

You're oiker the vest, or the pshat is you're matir the issur. Lebay. It's the opposite shaila. You're right, it's not really the opposite, but it's hobeha talya. Does akiras havest work, that what I'm doing is, ani oker the vest. There was a vest, and I break the vest, right? Or the pshat is, I come and I'm matir the issur. There's an issur, and I come and I'm matir that issur. You know what I would say is an oiker l'mafreya, כאילו it was—this is בכלל not, it was never, is not a nidah on those days. Or the pshat is it's coming to be matir the isha, which is this original shaila that I asked you. Is the pshat it's for the woman, or the pshat is it's for the issur of the heter? Now let's discuss the original shaila I asked you half hour ago, twenty minutes ago. What is vestus? Is vestus la'aser or vestus lehatir? What is that all about? Let's discuss it. No? If vestus d'Oraisa makes an issur, then it's only aser when it makes the issur, right? But if the pshat is it's to define the yamim, that she knows when she's in nidah, when she's not in nidah, right? It's not so much the date that now it's aser; it's telling me when she's in nidah, when she's not in nidah. When do we have to worry? Because even though she didn't see, so vezaktah bnei Yisrael, mechadesh, כאילו as if— The pshat is, worry mimeila there's a. When I walk into a store, when I walk into a store, and I don't buy something that has a safek treifus on it. I don't buy. There's safek treif, not kosher, right? I bought it. Did I buy treif, or did I buy safek not kosher? Safek not kosher. You look at the cheftza, you look at the halacha. That's right. Halacha is it's treif, you're not eating it. There's not, you bought treif, because kol zman there's no kashrus, you're not eating it. Oy, dilma, the pshat is, do I look at the cheftza? Not treif. What's wrong, Rafi? What's the problem? What's bothering you? Is she b'chezkas tehorah? What is it? What are you saying, what? Not if she's an einah kavua. You're talking about an einah kavua. Einah kavua. On an einah kavua, so the whole time she's b'safek to see. Rafi, what's bothering you? I see you're not... you're confused? I ain't start yet. It's not going. Why? See, that's a bentay. He's modeh al ha'emes. V'dover emes bilvavo, v'yoshev v'omer... he can't say v'yashkim... Okay, let's discuss. Let's discuss the stories, the storyline, okay? When a woman has a veset, right, and then all of a sudden she sees another day, she sees another day, right? She sees another day. Comes along the Taz and says, you know, that's a separate case, because she has already a veset. So then what are you worried about that day? What do you need? What? No, but I'm saying, but that day that it happened, and you don't have to worry about the bedikah. Why? Because she has already a veset. Yeah, but that day happened, right? She was asur, right? It happened. So what's the teretz? The teretz is when you're choshesh. You see, the next month she has to be choshesh for that day. The next month she has to be choshesh, right? Are you being choshesh?

Because you feel that she's not tahor without it? No, because she has a veses. She has chazkas taharah. So there the veses is to come and say, you know something, I'm worried about today. Over our vest, there's no chiyuv bedikah. There's no chiyuv bedikah because she's not nida. It's just the veses there comes to say, let's be choshesh for that day. Masha'enken, if let's say she has no cheskas taharah at all, and she's just not a kavuah, so there the vestus work that she doesn't have the taharah from the vestus. There the vestus are more that she's not tahorah till— kol zman she doesn't have the vestus. You look at the nekudas hakesef, that's what he's saying. He's saying that. Let me ask you, if let's say there's no history. So no history, either she says she's completely mutar, or she's completely asur. The terumas hadeshen's vest kavuah, how come it works for eina beinus? You want to explain it to me? It doesn't work for eina beinus, yeah. How come it doesn't work for eina beinus? How come it doesn't work for eina beinus? Because it should work. Terumas hadeshen, it should work. The same way if she missed eighteen, so it means we're not worried about it. Before eighteen, this is cheskas taharah, she's not going to see. After eighteen, that's a teretz. That's a cheskas taharah. Again, the vestus of the trumas hadeshen, what it helped me for 18, that, let's say she sees usually from 20 to 30. 29. What? Let's say she sees 20 to 29, and she grabbed the saw on 18. She's still has to be choshesh for 18, but she missed it, if she missed it. So all of a sudden it becomes, no, bedikah, don't worry, right? What are we choshesh for when it comes to 18? What are we worried about? It's not that right now this new 18 is that she's tamei kol zman, it's not misbarer. You don't need that. She's rather tahorah, but there's a chashash, okay, pes. What do you want to do about it? The 30th opposite. Vestus never— it depends how you understand vest. If you learn vestus that there's no reason to be choshesh past the vest, then ein hachanami, there's nothing past the vest. But if the pshat is that you're bemeshich tamei, meaning you're not allowed to live with her unless you have kvias vest to tell me, don't worry about it. So ein hachanami, it's a very big chiluk between the 18, the vest of 18 to the vest of late. What about the taz in such a case? If it's kavu and then eina kavu, are you choshesh for lamed? Are you choshesh for lamed? Why not? Sure, that's the story. That's how the Ritva learns the case of the ta'us. Are you not choshesh for, I don't know, 27? The what? 25, 25, 25, then 27. You're not choshesh for 27; it's chazakah. How come you would be choshesh for lamed and not chazakah? She's also behechsher. Can I just finish, because I see it's getting... I want to point out one thing. Ona'ah b'einis is a shaylah what it is. The Piskei Teshuvos says you don't have to be oiker the ona'ah b'einis. What's the lashon? Dina k'ves kavuah. What do you mean, dina k'... לגבי what? What is the dina l'gabei? So be'emes we're talking about a case of akirah here. Mechshash. I'm sorry, with chashash. Mashma l'gabei dina akirah, it's not dina k'ves kavuah, right? So how did the levush understand that ona'ah b'einis needs three times to be oiker? Why would you need three times to be oiker? Huh? Why should you need three times to be oiker an ona'ah b'einis? Huh? I mean, that's the...

Just because you have a chashash, no, eino bein is the taitzh, there's a vadai kavuah, means that we're afraid that there's no heter without it. You need the three times to make the heter. There's no chazkas ta'irah לגבי that. Let's say you would want, let's say you would want to aser. To aser, you need three times to aser. But if the pshat is every veses is a pshat is to be matir her, so then you would need three times that it didn't happen. The chiluk between creating the issur, you would need first three times for it to happen. Masha'enkin if it's to be matir the issur, then you would need three times for it to not happen. That's what the Levush is saying. The Levush is saying in order to take away what we put on you, an issur with the eino bein, you need three times to happen. If it never happened, it didn't make a difference. If she's asurah, the way to take off issur is you need three times to happen. That's what you need. The question is, do we look at it, heter issur? Pshat is it's asur till proven heter. Did you just chap what I just said? Get up and say it to the olam. Get up. Amod al raglecha. Is there a chakirah in vestos? There is? I don't know if there is. It might not be there, it might not be out there, I don't know, I have no idea. Here, here we have a chakirah. Don't say there. Chakirah in vestos. What is a vest? We say that a vest is asur. The point is asur because we want to be choshesh for certain day that it's asur. Let's say it passed, it passed. Scott, or is the pshat that when it's asur, it's telling you really it's asur, but not on the other days? Meaning, really the main point of the vest is to be matir the days before. Not the main point. It's about the cycle. When is it asur memeila, when is it mutar? So now you have to verify that on that day nothing happened. So if it passed and you didn't check, you still have to check. Ona beinonis could be the reason why we're making you check even afterwards is because it's not just chashash ba'alma, maybe, maybe, but you forgot to check. It's not chashash ba'alma. It's that day is kovea for us whether she's mutar or asur. So I need to know what happened on that day. So therefore, according to this, you would need three times to be oker. You need three, because it's not the pshat, kol zman you don't know, so it's mutar. No. Kol zman you don't have a heter, it's asur. Are you mutar till proven asur, or are you asur till proven mutar? What? Good? Are you guilty till proven innocent, or innocent till proven...? That's the shaila. How do you look at vestos? Did the chachamim come and say that there are certain days that we have to make a nis, but you're mutar, and the meila — or the pshat is the other way around? V'sartem is bnei Yisrael mitumasam, there's a taharah involved. It's a din in taharah. How are you tahor on the days that you don't have to worry about? On the days that you don't have to worry, though you don't have to worry. The Taz is saying a me'oridike vort. Taz is saying she's a kavua, so then there's another day after that. What is that day after that? It's a bishlama if there's no kvius at all, if there's no kvius whatsoever. So avadei, when you're worried, you're worried about — otherwise there's no heter. There's a difference between worrying about a vest after you're mutar, or worrying about a vest before you became mutar. The vest before you became mutar, even if it's an eina kavua, you're worried about maybe you're not mutar, maybe there's no heter. Masha'en kein if it's after a kavuah, you are mutar. Childs may be a asur. What's harder? Is it harder to prove someone asur, or is it harder to take someone that's asur and make him mutar? Which one is harder? Second. Take something that's asur, mimater it needs much more. הבנת? Isha sheyesh lah vest kavua. Achshav shinta, the Taz. Okay, you know what? Lisa, you tell me. What's the story of the Taz? She has a vest kavua, right? Then one day something fluked, right? So she has to worry about that day. Why is she worried? She's a kavuah already. And the teretz is she's just worried maybe asur, not anything more than that, because she's really mutar. The kavuah tells me she's mutar. Such a type of bedikah—I'm sorry, such a vest, that vest is nothing. Don't worry about it. ... Now what? Yeah, you're not choshesh anymore. Finished. What are you gonna do? Masha'en kein.

Ein kedem v'ein kavuah before a kvius vest, there it's not to come and say maybe she's asur. Therefore, who says she's mutar? Who gave you that? So kol zman you don't have the heter, meheicha teisa, what makes you mutar? But because you missed it, so you're mutar? How do you become mutar? Comes along the Shach and the Ketzos HaChoshen, and they're saying like this: Be'emes, what happens if there's no history whatsoever? There's nothing in the past. There's no history whatsoever. So what's the reason to aser? Like dilma depshat safek karet. Just because there's no history doesn't mean you're mutar. You're not mutar till asur. You're asur kol zman you can't identify the days that you'll see, and then you'll be mutar the rest of the time. That's the need of the vestes. The same thing. The trumas hadeshen is just telling me the days that she won't see, right? So the moment those days pass, so it's not going to help you find a beinus. So that oina beinus becomes mamash what? Mamash a chamurdike halacha. Mashenkein by the eighteen, avad it's a vest, but it's the vest with a kvius. It's a vest like the Taz of kavuah. You see, all the Torah you're going to say to answer the kasha, it's all in the same framework of the Taz. That's what I'm trying to get at. To ask you a kasha, every guy says, You say this, I'll give you a different teretz. You said this teretz, I'll give you a third teretz. You say a third, I'll give you a fourth teretz. They're not. They're all saying the same teretz. Saying a movedike yesod. They're learning up that there's a din vestus that asers you, and then there's a din vestus which you need to be matir. The din vestus that you need to be matir, if it passes you, there's no heter. There's nothing what you're talking. The din vestus that you're just saying to be choshesh for, okay, so go be choshesh for it. There's nothing wrong. And that would be the chiluk in the type of bedikah that you make, becherev, tzedakim, or a ner. Who says you need the regular bedikah? Because it's a different din vest. There's a vest that needs a real bedikah, because that vest is to be matir you. And then there's a din vest for the cheap, for the cheap chashash. You want to take away a chashash? Make a bedikah. Better? Clearer? Good? Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Baisai, have a good Shabbos. Perfect. Sunday, Kuf pei daled, se'if hei. Kuf pei tes se'if hei. Come on.