Hilchos Niddah: Bedikas Eid, Safek Hargashah, and the Chazakah of Dam B’Hargashah

Transcript

Here, we discussed two pshatim in the Gemara. The Gemara says, Dikasei, where's the hargasha? The Gemara says, hargasha, that she felt. So one pshat we said was, famous pshat, that be'emes she felt; ay, she claims she didn't feel, it was the eid that covered over that feeling. The first pshat, yes, we could call that the first pshat, because that's the first pshat, is in kreisi u'pleisi, kuf pei gimel, se'if katan aleph, that the pshat is she taka felt; the story was hargasha. So the chiddush is, we would come and say maybe it came from something else. Maybe the fact that she made a bedikah made her have hargasha. Kamashmalan, it's called a hargashas nidus, and therefore she has to keep regular nidah d'Oraisa by a bedikah say. So hargasha means she did feel. The chiddush is, we would say maybe she didn't feel. So the first case is the opposite. So the first pshat is she didn't feel, we say she did feel. The second pshat, she did feel, and we're saying maybe we should say she didn't feel. Kamashmalan, she felt. So we said it comes out a chiddush, that on both ways it's a safek hargasha, right? One is the safek is maybe it's there, maybe it's not there. The second is, it's still a safek. The safek is that it was there, but maybe it's not from this, maybe it's from something else. So the safek shebai is safek. Yeah. I have a question. What if a woman never ever feels, right? So why do we say when she does a bedikah and she sees blood that, oh, maybe she did feel, but she never feels. So why would this be a midiference in this case? What, mamash that second that she checked there was found the argasha? When we say she doesn't feel, it's impossible. We say that she feels, but she doesn't know that she feels. There's no such thing as she doesn't feel. There's no such thing. But still, you tell me that second that she put in her hand, right, that's a second. We assume that she probably felt something. Yeah, because it's based on the fact that she did see dam, and dam is ba b'argasha usually. Okay, you have to wait a little, because I'm going to touch on it in the middle of the shiur. I'm going to touch on this in a little while. But this is the two pshatim, all right? So, kitzur, sfeikos. One is a safek maybe it's there, and one is a safek maybe what was there is not really there, all right? But it's be'etzem safek, be'etzem it's safek. Comes now that what happens if she is mesupeket, right, according to the tzad that argasha means that she did feel, what happens if she was mesupek? What happens if she's taka mesupek if she felt? Here I'm asking a pashut she'eilah. It comes out that both pshatim is safek hargasha, right? But according to the pshat it's argasha she felt, and we don't know if what she felt is what she felt. What happens in case she doesn't— She's misupek if she felt. What would be according to the kreisi u'pleisi's pshat? Here the safek, ad pa. A woman made a bedikah. So according to the kreisi u'pleisi, the story is she felt, so we can say maybe she's noting, according to the sidrei taharah and all the other acharonim the pshat is she didn't feel, and we're afraid maybe she felt. So in both cases, the bottom line is safek hargashah, right? So I'm asking, according to the kreisi u'pleisi, it's talking about a story that vadai hargashah, or maybe she's misupek if she's margish? According to the kreisi u'pleisi, it's vadai hargashah, but you don't know where it came from. Right, so I'm asking, maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe even if it's a safek. Or that's a case of sfeik sfeika maybe, safek if she was margish. Even if she was margish, it's a safek. I don't know if it's true. I don't know if the l'maaseh, that was just the chiddush of the kreisi u'pleisi, but l'maaseh we don't say that it's a safek. The kreisi u'pleisi is mechadesh that it's vadai. We would come and say maybe it comes from somewhere else. No, we're not choshesh that it comes from somewhere else. So what, it's a safek l'chumra? The pshat is, l'faker, there's no safek takah. There's no reason.

to be mistapek that it comes from somewhere else. Those are the two shailas, ot pam. Okay, everybody please pay attention. I know already, so already the second shiur in Kesamim, so by the second shiur already the oilam is already used to it. They're used to it, so therefore they're not paying that much attention. By three already it's back to normal, whatever that means. So pay attention. It's a pashut zach here. Come here. By a kesem—I'm sorry, not by a kesem, by a bedikah—d'Oraisa d'Rabbanan. So pashut this is a d'Oraisa. The question is why. She didn't have a hargashah. So the answer is because maybe she had, maybe she had. Maybe that she had, we'll soon see, is it a strong maybe, because just maybe still doesn't make it d'Oraisa, l'chu'ra. We'll get to that a little bit later. Maybe she had, and the pshat is because of the bedikas eid she didn't realize. So it's called a safek hargashah. Placey learns she had; maybe it's not from that, it's from something else. Maybe she made a bedikah that caused it, made an internal bedikah that caused out hargashah. So again it's safek hargashah, right? So I'm asking you like this: first of all, does he mean to say that maybe it's this, and the maskanah maybe is not enough to say it's not a hargashah? The havah amina, the maskanah of the Gemara is, where's the hargashah? Kamashma lan she was margish. Maybe what? Let's say she was margish, maybe what? But, ah, you had a question. Maybe it comes from something else. Teretz is it doesn't come from something else. Meaning what? Because misafek we don't say it, or because there's takanah chashash, there's takanah such thing to be worried about. I don't know. It's not clear. You have to see the Kresi, we have to learn up the Kresi. Does the Kresi and Plesi mean, misafek we're not going to say it's not a hargasha? Maybe he never talked about a safek. Maybe what the Kresi and Plesi means, don't be mistapek, but ein hachanami, on a safek hargasha, takanah wouldn't be good. No. The chiddush is safek hargasha. So I'm asking, what happens if she's not sure in the first place if she saw koin the Kresi and Plesi? She's mesupek in the hargasha, efsher, efsher nisht. Would the din of the Kresi and Plesi be then like a safek sfeika? Safek, maybe the hargasha is not there. Maybe it's תלוי בשאלה. Maybe the Kresi and Plesi never said safek; he said it's a vadai, don't be mistapek. And a safek hargasha would be one safek, and it would be a sfeik sfeika, d'oraisa l'chumra. But if you learn that even according to Kresi and Plesi, l'maaseh it's a safek, and the chiddush is don't be mistapek, hilchos sfeikos don't take away the safek, milchos sfeikos, even though it is a safek, so if you have another safek, it would be a safek sfeika. It would be a sfeik sfeika. I'll show you why I'm saying this. I'll show you why I'm saying this. Are you with me? Are you arguing with me? Is there anything that I said that you disagree with? You said the same thing? You agree. Okay, Baruch Hashem. So far, so good. We're just in the beginning. Hu yatchil lihyos ba'yabeshvi. Just kidding. Okay, so everybody understands? Either the case you place, he means — you saw it inside? You saw it inside? No. Okay, so maybe see it inside. Either the case you place, he means, yes, it's a safek, but who says that? Okay, so it's a safek. Good, but it's a safek hagasha. I dilma what he meant to say is, don't be mistapek; it's a wild safek. Who said you should be mistapek like that? Nafka mina maybe would be is if she has a safek because she even had a hagasha. Super, she had a hagasha. What happens in such a case? I told you over the psak of the Divrei Chaim. I think it's also the Tzemach Tzedek. It's a chassidishe, very more lenient — I should say very more, but they're very common, more lenient. Bedikos. What do you have over there? Yeah, they're very more lenient on bedikos. Why? Because they hold — this is the way I understand it — because they hold, like the Divrei Chaim says in siman lamed zayin in teshuvos, that it's actually not tamei d'Oraisa by a bedikah. Actually not tamei d'Oraisa.

Because when she says, Bari li that I didn't have a hargasha, I know I didn't have. There's really no reason to say that she did have. I lemaisah, you'll ask chazakah that it's always bar hargasha, which is what the reason why we say by bedikas eid it's d'Oraisa. He says chazakah is only where there's a safek. Chazakah where there's a safek, chazakah will tell me if it's bar hargasha. When you have no safek, you have no safek. It's like Reb Elchanan's vort with emunah. Rov goyim believe in Yoshke, rov goyim don't believe in the Yahdus. The Torah says, halocha achar harov. Torah says only where there's a safek. So it's Reb Elchanan's vort. It's a chakirah from Reb Elchanan. He said it once b'shem Rav... Yeah, it's a famous vort. This vort: hai, rov goyim — so follow the rov. Torah says rak sheyesh safek. A lot of answers. So here, chazakah only where there's a safek. So let me clarify with you. Yeah, I don't understand. If someone came to you and asked you, you believe in the Torah? Torah says rov. Rov — believe people don't believe the Torah is true, says chas v'shalom. Rov people tell you the Torah is not emes. ... harei הולכים אחר הרוב. Oh, אז מה, why not? Rak k'sheyesh safek. Aha, אנחנו הרוב. Okay, okay. אז אנחנו. He was saying, l'gabei hayom shel hapolitika, ... Okay, good. Kitzur, you hear? So I'm asking like this: what's the tzad hapuch? What's the other side of the coin? What's the other side of the coin? Which means, let's say it is de'oraisa. Yeah, but she's tiny, I don't know, I don't have, I never saw. I don't see that he's right, no? Teretz is, chazakah doesn't mean safek according to them. Chazakah means that it's vadai argusha. It's not pshat it's a hachra'ah of safek, that every time there's dam, we know it's bargashah. So I don't understand this. I had a problem with the sugya, why? That every time, that it's always bargashah, so the whole din derabbanan doesn't apply. Why don't you say every time there's dam, it's bargashah? Every time there's dam and spot, or there's dam and flow, anything, anything, any time when it's vadai yatza migufah, it should come out, it's de'oraisa. Again, if you learn the chazakah means that every time there's dam, it's vadai dam, dam hayotza, that it's yatza from the makor, so then every time there's dam, vadai migufah, how can you be cholek on the— unless maybe that's the hesber of the machlokes, that the shitos that hold that vadai yatza migufah is de'oraisa, it's going to hold that the chazakah is vadai. And the shitos that hold that it's not vadai yatza migufah de'oraisa is because the chazakah is only when there's a safek. I mean, again, I'm asking, if you hold that the chazakah means that any time there's blood— It's definite that it came min hamekor with hargasha. So then what's the safek? Any time there's vadai atzmi gufo, it's d'Oraisa. No, but I don't understand. Not always do you have that. You could have a vadai atzmi gufo, and it's not. Yeah, but it's machlokes haposkim. Some say vadai atzmi gufo is not d'Oraisa. That's what I'm saying, because it's not from the mekor. But it's vadai atzmi gufo. Not mekor; anything else can happen, maka, whatever. So the truth is, the truth is, yeah. What's your question? What's that he? You don't want to know what is your—his lawyer? Okay, yeah, what's the question? You have a sore throat, you can't talk? What? Who are those shitos? First of all, there's Reb Akiva Eiger like that. What? Yeah, over the years we went through it, but okay, go find it in there. Go find the mekoros. There are rishonim that say that. It's famous. No, Reb Akiva Eiger says it's vadai midrabbanan. He's mechalek by vadai atzmi gufo. We're going to soon learn this from Akiva Eiger.

Okay, show him who says those shitos. Show him, show him. Okay, so let's go back. Rabosai, shh. Okay, come, Gelshon, you with me? Very simple, very simple. Chelek hachochma pashut. I need you to להבין. האם הוא צודק? רב דברי חיים. הוא צודק. לחיים צודק. Chazakah means when you don't know, you say a chazakah. So then how could it be that every time she makes a bedikah, I mean, who said she saw? Why would you say she saw? If it's not vadai that she saw, so then what's the reason to say it? What? Oh, so I want to talk about that, but I'm not holding there yet. Slowly. Again. רב דברי חיים, והצמח צדק, והחסידישע אחרונים, רוצים לדעת. תגיד לי, you mean d'Oraisa, mamish real d'Oraisa? How could it be d'Oraisa? Who said she saw? בהרגשה, who said? I mean, why? You know, he said it very good. Just that moment, it's like a funny story. She feels that moment, saw. I told you, the answer is because there's a chazakah that there's hargashah, right? So whenever there's a chazakah, there's hargashah. So we have to say that that's vadai, right? But it's not really true. Chazakah means when you don't know, so you establish a chazakah. But if she's telling me, I know for sure, what do you mean? Don't tell me I don't know. I'm telling you I know not that way. Maskim? So he wants to say that. I don't understand. How is it possible that she'll say, I know that? Once we're saying the hargashah could be not felt also, there's just no reason to be choshesh for hargashah. But if we're saying the hargashah could be not felt also, how could you say, I know? Maybe in the chanami she didn't hear. So why should you be choshesh for it? Well, I don't understand. Why? Does it ever happen that there's dam without hargashah? Obviously yes. Obviously yes, and that's what I'm asking. That's exactly what I'm asking. What I'm asking is, it comes out that there's no such thing as dam sheloi b'hakasha. Is that true? It's not a true statement. I don't understand. The teretz is, it doesn't mean mamish mamish, right? So then what is it? So the Divrei Chaim is saying gevaldige. It doesn't mean— it just means when you have a safek, we'll still probably. We'll machria in the safek rov, chazakah rov. So what is the tzad that holds that no, yes, it's always that way? What did they hold? Mazeh lo לפי הפשט של הקרייסי פלייסי. כי כמו שאתה עכשיו אומרת, אני יודעת בוודאות שמה שלא הרגשתי. זה לא שייך פה. אנחנו מדברים על בדיקת עד, that it covers it over. We're talking about covering over. That's what we're discussing. On the covering over comes the Divrei Chaim and says a very simple thing: You know for sure. What does that mean, you know for sure? When you have a safek, then you say mistaber. That's what you say. So therefore, where she's saying, I know not that way. Well, what should I tell you? I don't feel it. Well, you don't know for sure if I felt or I didn't feel. So the tzad sheini—what does the other shita hold? The other shita must hold, no! It can't be. Yeah, then there's no hilchos nidah, d'rabbanan d'Oraisa. The whole thing doesn't exist. So I have two terutzim. There's two ways how I feel you could say. Either you could say the pshat is—either you could say the pshat is, there's actually dam that comes from two places. There's dam which comes min hamekor, and there's dam which comes min haprozdor, right? Which is really what the Rambam was talking about, right? It's a safek. There's two sfeikos. One safek is maybe it's dam in ha-mekor, or maybe it's dam in ha-prozdor. Maybe dam in ha-mekor is not bo ela b'hargashah, but dam in ha-prozdor could come shelo b'hargashah. Now where is the bedikah? The bedikah usually is till pretty much the makor. You go past that place where it's... So there you can't say that that dam was shelo b'hargashah. Ma she'ein kein stam dam that comes out, avadai you could clarify that's maybe not d'Oraisa d'Rabbanan. True, no problem. My pleasure. Elie, are you with me? You with me? A little bit. Okay, so let me say it again. We're learning over here today that a kesem is a d'Rabbanan, okay? We're learning that because d'Oraisa is only b'hargashah.

Then we started learning an intermediary story, where there's no hargasha. Forget about the crazy places, first pshat, pashut pshat, Sidrei Taharah, all the other acharonim. There's no hargasha, yet because of a bedikas eid, we'll say there was hargasha. How does that work? How does that work? Which is the second pshat in that Gemara of hargashah. So it's definitely based, which is clear in the Acharonim, it's definitely based on a chazakah that dam is ba b'hargashah. That's the way it is. There's a chazakah that most bloods that come, come b'hargashah. Okay. Now, so now she made a bedikas eid without hargashah. Teretz is she fell, but the bedikas eid overcovered it, fine. So what do you mean? You mean that it's d'Oraisa? Yeah, most Acharonim say it's d'Oraisa, I vadai, because that's what you're saying. Since dam is ba b'chazakah, she didn't feel it, it's her problem, so then it's d'Oraisa. That's what it is. Comes along the Acharonim from the Chassidishe velt and they say, wait a minute, maybe it's derabbanan. What's their chap? What's their nekudah? They're learning chazakah not ba basar chazakah of chazkas gimel shanim, but safek chazakah. Whenever you have a safek, we go after a chazakah. So what happens if she comes and says, Bari li, I know I didn't feel, I didn't feel. I paid attention, I paid attention, I didn't feel. So the chazakah is not going to change. She didn't pay attention, you can come and say it's a safek, what happened, and we can come and say, mi-safek. They're learning the whole chazakah only when she has a safek. Hashem can't. There's no safek, there's no chazakah. And then a Chanami is takanah d'Oraisa. We're not holding there yet. We're not holding there yet. First we're holding with what they say. That's my second teretz. Slowly. So then the question becomes, so you mean to say that what's the other opinions that hold d'Oraisa? What did they hold? So either they held that chazakah means that yes, every time there's blood, it's got to come b'hargashah, not as a safek. It's not a safek, right? The means is, we're telling you, by the way, every time there's dam, it's always b'hargashah. So then I look and I say, then there's no need of the Rabbanan. I don't know what you're talking about. What did you just tell me? So I said one of two ways how we can understand this. Either we can understand it because the only dam sheba b'hargashah is which dam? Dam which comes from the prozdor. I'm sorry, with the makor. The dam which comes from the prozdor, hafshetzah is not going to be b'hargashah, right? So every time you have dam, you never know. Maybe it's not bah, maybe it's bah. Maybe we should be machmir mi-safek. Maybe we should be machmir mi-safek that maybe what? Yeah, but it's two sfeikos. One safek is maybe it's coming from the makor, maybe because it's never two sfeikos ever. If it's makor, it's vadai hargashah. If it's prozdor, it's... Again, she saw a kesem. She's shayla is, let's say it's definitely not me'alma. It's either from the prozdor or from the makor. If it's from the makor, it's vadai b'hargashah. That's when she's sure. Who cares? Yeah, but I'm saying, in other words, in the safek... See, I want to use this. Could you remind this to me later? Could you remind this point to me later? I have a tremendous mahalach in the whole sugya, which I want to share with you. Chiddush nifla. Why is he saying it's a safek? It's a safek. We said that there's two... Let's say it might come from the price. Let's say if it comes from the mekar, then automatically it's de'oraisa. It's not shema bar garsha. Right, but it's always one safek. So it's always one safek. So when she says, I vadai did not feel her garsha, then she's telling you that it could not be from there. It's a dam tahor. So that takes away the safek, so there's no safek. No, because it's always bar garsha. We don't care what she has to say. It's always bar garsha if it's a dam from there. Right, so every nidah is a safek maybe it's that. You don't know where it's from, so let it be a safek de'oraisa. But if she's telling you vadai there was no hargasha by... But there's no such thing. The word she said means nothing to us. She doesn't know.

I'm telling you from ... it's clear. Who told you from the ... I'm telling you, I didn't ... from the ... from the ... Her blood is coming from the ... Good, so it's only one suffix, to say something ... But it's not a suffix anymore. She cleared up the suffix. She has a vadai she didn't feel, so therefore that stairs that hazakah. It's not even a suffix. It's that this צד הספק gets from the ... it's not heavily a ... not suffix. Because she's telling you. I like the question better than the answer. Why are you saying it's a suffix now? Now that she doesn't feel her ... why is it a suffix already? Because maybe it's from the ... because if it's from the ... it's definitely with her ... no matter what she said. Right, but the fact that she did not feel her ... she told you it was not from there; it's from the ... she's saying. Oh, so that's what you're saying. You're both saying the same thing. The fact that I say there's no ... is another way of saying that that proves to me it's a hachra'ah that it comes from the ... There's no suffix anymore. Maybe, maybe that's how you have to learn. Maybe. ... You hear? Rav Avraham from Borough Park is ... to Rav Daniel, the דיין מופלג from Queens. Don't give Rigo Park. Leave Rigo Park. This is not ... Rigo Park. In the Spanish, to play basketball, that's ... Rigo Park. Okay, now listen carefully, you hear? Oh, I was trying to be nice. Okay. ... Okay, so efshar, let's leave this as a צד. I want to say a little differently, a little later, but could be, could be saying good, that the fact that she comes, she says she doesn't feel, that's a raya that's from the ... That will give strength to the ... that it's from the ... Ken, okay. Now, could be, could be. So that's the first teretz. The first teretz is that every time she sees dam, maybe it's from the prozdor. That's the—otherwise, if it's min hamakor, there's no way to talk about it. It's vadai ba b'chazakah. Or we could come and say, or we could come and say—just careful—or we could come and say like this, that be'emes, dam haba b'chazakah, that—I'm sorry, dam b'chazakah ba b'hargashah—is not against her word. That's not true. Even the other tzad that paskens that it's de'oraisa, will pasken that she could come and say, That's not true, I didn't feel. No, I'm sorry. So what's the pshat that it's de'oraisa? No, she says she doesn't feel, because she's not ne'eman to say that she doesn't feel. And since it's something which is not clear, so maybe the pshat is she doesn't understand what she felt. And then his thing falls off. You don't need his thing. Forget about his thing. It's a different teretz. The question is, every time is dam ba b'chazakah, so then what's there to talk about? What's there to say? There's nothing to talk about. Every time a woman sees dam, it's b'chazakah. So the teretz is, prozdor and the ma'isah is okay. All we could say, the second shitah holds it's not de'oraisa, because every dam is ba b'chazakah d'hargashah. The takah is acharon, the safek whenever you're mesupak. Aye, she's tiny. Borelin, it shouldn't be a safek. They don't hold there's a safek. They hold that she didn't make a safek. She could claim what she wants and she's still not a safek. This is the Chasam Sofer. Chasam Sofer, the teshuvos says that the pshat is they're not bekiim. They're not bekiim. They're not bekiim. It's very hard for her to know. It's very hard for her to know if she did feel, she didn't feel, especially she's making a bedikas eid. So then, leicha teisa she knows what she's talking about. But ein hachanami, if she could come and say, I didn't feel, ein hachanami, even the first tzad will hold that there's no she'eilas dam b'behechzak. Okay? Why is the second tzad any different? That she's not boki is the teretz that's going to make it? It's the same. It's two terutzim to say that dam b'behechzak is not. The first teretz holds dam b'behechzak means it's real, that every time it comes, there's no ne'emanus to say differently. And the second pshat is that there is a ne'emanus. She has a ne'emanus to say differently. But not here. Not in a case where she made a bedikah and it overcovers and she's not sure, and that's the story here. Because they're not boki. Because they're not. Meaning it's not more than that, especially by a bedikas eid. It means generally we would take her word. You don't have to.

We're not chavrus, let's learn. Now the question. I'm sorry, it turns into everybody has a... I understand. Now, sometimes to get better. I understand, but I can't do that. It's not fair to everybody sitting at the table. What do you want me to do? I wish everybody could get better. I'm saying it slowly, I'm saying it slowly. Thank you. Okay, now, I'll tell you what I want. You know what I really want? I'll tell you. In learning, there's nothing else that I want. Trust me, nothing. Maybe a good night's sleep, but other than that... You know what I really want? I want you guys to think for a minute: what is the de'oraisa if you hold it's de'oraisa? Here, listen, what is the de'oraisa? Is the de'oraisa vadai, or it's a de'oraisa misafek, machmas de'oraisa? I want you to write this down. Lichvod Maran HaGaon Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Avadia Yosef. You want to write Rav Avadia Yosef a letter. On the side that we say every bedikah is de'oraisa, huh? He says he talks about the safek? Okay, good. You see, I didn't learn the... Sounds familiar? Sounds familiar? Even the de'oraisa, there's two ways to learn the de'oraisa. Either the de'oraisa means it is de'oraisa, right? And her to come and be motzi would take something very special that she has an emunah like to say differently, or the pshat is that there's a safek, and ממילא it's de'oraisa. Okay, so he clarifies this shaila. So don't say it's not a lamed. Why should it say it's not a lamed? ... Huh? Okay, now listen carefully, yeah? I'll tell you what I want from you. You ready? I'm going to say a chiddush nifla. If she has a safek— no, I don't care about that. That doesn't bother me. Not if she has a safek. If chazakah means definite, that it's a nidah d'Oraisa no matter what happens. She made a bedikah, and there's a chazakah that's vadai bo b'hargashah. אי דילמא the chazakah is taka mi-safek. There's a safek if or not, the chazakah says it's d'Oraisa. He said he asked a she'eilah? Okay, good, good, good, good! Oh, I'll tell you what I want. You ready what I want? Listen carefully. I'll tell you what I want. Okay, you saw, you showed him. Okay, now. Bemeila, I'm going to pasken a chiddush lahalachah. Write it down, write it down. If, let's say, she sees bedikas eid, bedikas eid, she sees dam, and there's also another makom l'safek. There's another safek. For example, let's say you look on the thing and it looks like it's a makkah. Let's just throw that out for an example. Yesh oyd stadim l'hakel. What happens? If the pshat is that it's a chazakah and acharon safek, it doesn't matter. So you could come and say, well, here's a makkah, it's another safek. Chazakah, you can't be machria. It's lo shayach l'chazakah. Chazakah chiyah b'zeh, but there's another safek. But if it's a vadai, it can't be used as a safek for tliya in other inyanim. Because it's a vadai. Okay, shh, quiet. He doesn't understand the case. I'm just saying, what happens if she made a bedikas eid, okay? So we're saying it's d'Oraisa and the world's gonna turn upside down. Okay, now, I'm asking like this: what happens if there's other stadim l'hakel? There's other things, maybe it's a makel. There's reasons to think other things also. What's the second safek? I just told you. What's the first safek? I just told you. Maybe there's no hagasha. Regular safek bedikas eid, maybe there was no hagasha. So whatever, you pasken that usually that she's tamei mi'safek, but now there's another safek. Now there's another safek. What would be the halachah? So I said this in the kollel by Rabbi Roth, I said this. They got alarmed, they got alarmed, like the olam woke up. It was an interesting chiddush. It was as if you learned that it's a vadai.

So there's nothing to mistapek. You know, so you have a safek on a vadai d'Oraisa. Well, what do you want? But even if the d'Oraisa is b'toras safek, whatever, it's sfeikosin. It's just vadai in this safek. That's all it is. So maybe you can be meikel. So they found me, when I said it, it didn't go so well, right? The nerves, they got very nervous. Then they came to maskim, and they showed me the Minchas Yitzchak says such a yesod, that you could use this with other sfeikos you can be meikel. With other sfeikos you can be meikel. You saw it? You saw it somewhere? No? Minchas Yitzchak? I don't have it. Okay, Chelek Choshen Mishpat. Okay? So you're writing down, you like psak halacha. You like psak halacha, so write down psak halacha. In a case, bedi'eved, you want to know something? I'll tell you the truth. When we learn bedi'eved, you're going to learn this yesod, that when you look at a cloth, there's ways how to tell that maybe it's not a this, it's a dam makkah. It comes from a makkah. Not the dam itself, but the way it's situated. So how could you have a mistapek d'Oraisa? What's it to talk about? What do you want? What do you want? I don't say, what's it to talk about? This is the stadim, because even the d'Oraisa. So pashut I always understood, because in the Chassidishe velt they hold like the Divrei Chaim, Siget, you know, the whole, don't make it into a d'Oraisa. Don't make it into a d'Oraisa. But I'm taining maybe even if it is a d'Oraisa, pshat is it's not a d'Oraisa b'etzem. It's a d'Oraisa misafek. It's a d'Oraisa misafek. If you have another safek, you can be meikel. Yeah, what's wrong? How can it be the same safek? Lav davka. Okay, now, with this, let's go one more step. What happens, says the Seder Taharah, that she was bodek herself, but not all the way to the makor. Yeah? What's wrong? What's wrong? You're maskim? You're maskim? Huh? You're not maskim? Thinking. Okay, good. Did you write down the psak halachah? You wrote down? Memory, that's it. He became now like a computer. ... Okay, listen carefully, yeah? What happens if she makes a bedikah not so deep up, that it's very hard to say that she didn't feel from the makor the hergashah because of the bedikah, says the Seder Taharah that it's not going to be, because there's nothing that covered over the bedikah, the hergashah. Sidur, Taireh kuf pei gimel, seif katan yud. And she's not... And she didn't feel. So there's no reason. Now, I want to discuss that. First thing I want to discuss is the pshat in him, the pshat, the way he understood it is that because you put your finger where the hargasha is supposed to be, so therefore you didn't feel the hargasha. I always thought the pshat is that the hargasha of the etzem bedikah, the feelings of the etzem bedikah, in the mind psychologically, like outweigh. But it's interesting how he's learning. He's learning that the bedikah, lowered down, is not going to cover over the hargasha upstairs. It's interesting. Okay, all right. What? I don't know. I don't know if he's learning. What was the way I thought on this? I always understood that the fact that you're doing something stronger, which is the bedikah, which is much stronger than the hargasha. I mean, bedikah is, it's feeling. You know, you're feeling it. There's no question about what you feel when you put your finger, right? So that's overpowering in the mind than the weaker thing. You know, by the way, that if a person, you know, they used to say that if a person would come complain that he...

That he has a tooth, or whatever, he has a headache, whatever. Let's give him a punch in the face. Now you won't have a tooth, a headache anymore. I'm saying you have a toothache. I'm saying, well, you concentrate on this. It's mainly your mind's going to be off the first thing, right? When a person makes a bedikah, it overpowers the hargashah. He seems to learn that since the bedikah wasn't where the hargashah is supposed to be, so it's not going to overpower the hargashah, which is a chiddush to me in itself. He's learning that the hargashah is a unique feeling that's different than the bedikah feeling. That's why— No, he's learning that it has to be that since you're touching the place where the hargashah is supposed to be, so you don't even know what you're feeling. That's why you didn't feel hargashah, something like that. It's an interesting observation. So what's the nafka mina if you don't go high up? Meaning, you feel something when something's there, right? You're always feeling something physical when the finger is there. But the fact—he's saying the fact that you didn't go up high enough, so where the hargashah is supposed to be, so then there's no problem. So then he's saying there's no problem. Right. Why? Because the hargashah feeling, it's mashma that is a different feeling that— No, you're saying it's because then you could come and say that this feeling overweighed this feeling. But if it wasn't there, in other words, if you had pain in one foot, it wouldn't take away the pain in the other foot. Why didn't you feel in this foot? It's not there. It's—you didn't put your finger where there is. Put it somewhere. But she was supposed to feel it. If she didn't go in all the way, she was supposed to feel the hargashah. At this that she didn't feel is, right, she didn't have one. That's what the Sidrei Taharah learns, right? So first of all, I don't understand. He ignores zivas davar lach. I mean, what happened to that? Yeah, what happened to that hargasha? I mean, what happens to—l'maaseh there's a zivas davar lach from the... So you didn't go all the way up, okay, but the zivas davar lach you still have. That one doesn't count? Why? I don't understand. I don't understand. Zivas davar lach is—zivas davar lach is whatever it is. It's where you made the bedikah. You didn't go all the way up, but the zivas davar lach you should have felt. And this over— I mean, what happened? He ignores the hargashah of zivas davar lach. I don't know what happened to the hargashah of zivas davar lach. Okay, you look at this in Retai, okay? Now, again, the Chasam Sofer learns, Chasam Sofer learns that you can't start playing games. You weren't all the way up, you weren't all the way up. You can't be meshayer. Leave this chiddush alone, okay? Let me tell you what I think the mechanics of this chiddush דין is. You ready? How does this chiddush דין work? Do you need a bepoeldike thing, a bepoeldike kis to make it into a safek? She didn't feel, right? She made a bedikah, so the bedikah overcovers the hargashah. So do you need that something should— Cause you a safek. Where does the safek start? That's my question. Does the safek start because there's always a safek, maybe there's hargasha, and the fact that you made a bedikah makes you not being able to say, I didn't feel? Or it's the other way around. The fact that you did something that overcovers the hargasha, that itself, that itself is the reason to be mistapek. Again, every time there's doubt, yeah, the safek should have a bad hargasha. So what does the bedikas eid do? The bedikas eid tells me, so I didn't feel. Teretz is, you don't know what you're talking about. Leave it alone, right? I deal with a pshat is, it's not the pshat is that it's supposed to be hargasha. Pshat is that since you did something which camouflages a hargasha, that itself gives me the reason to be mistapek, maybe there was hargasha. No, no, now you don't understand. Now you don't understand. One more thing you said.

Not because I did something. It's supposed to be hakosha. You know what the bedikas eid does for you? The bedikas eid does for you tells me, don't believe you if you think you didn't see it. But the bedikas eid doesn't make the safek at all. The bedikas eid just tells me that you can't claim that you didn't. That's all it does. I deal with the bedikas eid itself makes a safek. She has dam. She has dam. She made a bedikah. She did feel something, but we're saying she felt a bedikas eid. I'll give you an example. Let me try to give you a perfect example. Yeah. Okay, I'll give you an example. You ready? Let's say there's a camera that's going kaseder on the bank, on the vault, right? There's a camera that's going on the vault. Now, should you be mistapek that at every moment a ganef is going to come to take? Maybe yeah. Maybe the pshat is that every moment there should be a safek, right? The camera—you know what the camera does for me? The camera keeps an eye to see if someone was there. So in my camera, af echad lo ba lignov, af echad lo ba lignov, right? What happens if I put a piece of paper over there for five minutes, you hear? So what is that? That makes all of a sudden a question mark. What happened in those five minutes? Maybe. So where was the safek? Was the safek because at any given moment the ganav is going to come, and gerada, you don't have a raya fakert for those five minutes? Or the pshat is the mere fact that for five minutes there was no camera, the mere fact that for five minutes there's no camera, that itself, that there's no way for me to know if it didn't happen— There's a raya that something happened. Wait, not a raya. That itself is more the chashash that maybe something happened. Could have happened. The maileh of the camera is just to come and say that it didn't happen, and the moment you don't have a camera, so then you have to be mistapek. Forget about the camera. Now you don't have your raya, so maybe it did happen. Idilma the mere fact that five minutes of no camera, which means you don't have a raya, that itself gives me a reason to be mistapek. Maybe something would happen. Slow, I'm not ready to give you enough. First I want you to understand the she'eilah. There's a very big nafka. Is it mashma from this shaila that the feeling of hargasha is the same exact feeling of the bedika, just on a lesser note? Meaning, is that what it's mashma? I always thought the hargasha is feeling A, and the bedika is feeling B. Just feeling B happens to be stronger, so you really cannot feel feeling A. Right, I'm going to get to that. That's exactly what I'm getting to. I'm getting there. I'm not holding there yet. Okay. Ma baia? Lo mehavanta af milsa. Ken, aval ani lo mevin. Ani mevin itzeh bamilim, aval ani lo mevin itzeh ba... Okay, but I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready. Okay, so wait, slowly, slowly. Ilan, ask it very simple. Raffi, what are you saying? You don't understand what I said? Okay. Okay. What happens if you have a safek ma'aseh which will cover over the hargasha, which is what the Chasam Sofer learns when you make a bedika and it's not all the way up.

100%, you're not sure. You don't know for sure that it went all the way up. You don't know if it didn't, right? You don't know if it covered over. You don't know if it didn't cover over. Here's the pshat that every time you have a chazakah here, and she's supposed to see and supposed to be bargasha, the pshat is we don't believe you because you made a bedikas eid. So then let's say she made a bedikas eid, which is not necessarily going to cover over such a hargasha. It's not muchach that it covered over. You did the hargasha; it's not 100%. Does it make a difference? No, because all it is is you. When you make a bedikah, we can't tell you that you know what you're talking about. So we still can't tell you. How do I know for sure you know what you're talking about? But if the pshat is that if you make a bedikah, make a bedikah, and the bedikah is such that it's bekoach to cover over the hargasha, so be'emes we don't know that there's supposed to be hargasha. Just the fact that you don't know that there's hargasha gives me room to be mistapek, and I'll say it that way. Maybe I'll say it that way. You hear what I just said? Not really. Okay. Listen. Every time there's hargasha, that's vadai. That's vadai. Chazakah baah hargasha. The thing is, a woman could come and say it's not true. I know different. Fine. Because the pshat is there's not even what to talk about. Good. So then what does bedikas eid do? Bedikas eid does is, don't trust the woman. Don't trust the woman. Now, what happens if you're mesupak if such a bedikas eid will cover over hargasha, which is what the Chasam Sofer says is the story. Every time you make a bedikah, because you don't know for sure if you went all the way up, if not, and who cares? We don't know, so leave it alone. Yeah, so what does that mean? You know for sure there's dam. You know for sure it's b'lo hargasha. She's ne'emet to come and say, Nah. So kol zman we don't know for sure that she knows what she's talking about, it's called what? It's called that we can't trust her against what we know. But if it goes the other way around, then it's not dam b'hargasha is the mechayev. But the way it works is the other way around. Since there's a makom l'histapek over here, there's a makom l'histapek, since she did bedikas eid, so it would cover over, so that's mechayev mei safek maybe it's b'hargasha. And that's why I explained to you it's not a regular de'oraisa. That's how I explained to you it's not a regular de'oraisa. It's actually only a safek. So where does the safek—it doesn't start by her, it starts by the bedikas eid. The fact that the bedikas eid is such a thing which would cover over our hargasha, so therefore I have a safek maybe there was hargasha. So now when you have a safek in that, so then what does it become? You don't even know if you have such a bedikah. It can't be that it's de'oraisa. It's a shevacha de'oraisa. Because the whole safek is based on a bedikah, which you don't even know if she made a bedikah that will cover over that hargasha. In the second case, there's no need to come on if she's ne'eman or not. It's not a shaylah of her ne'emanus. If we're going to say if she goes all the way up, and—it's very simple. If you say that—okay, you know what, let me tell you what, we're going to have to stop soon, so let me tell you what I want. You ready? I want you to write down the following question: Does safek hargasha, by safek hargasha, by bedikas eid, matchil im ha-safek sheha'isha ra'ah, or is it matchil im ha-safek that there was a bedikas eid which covers over hargasha? Where does the safek start? Does the safek start with the woman, that she saw, so now we have to be mesupak in hargasha, or does the safek start that she did something which covers over her hargasha, so therefore that's a reason to be mistapek, maybe there was a hargasha. Ha-safek hi matchil im ha'isha...

אולי היא בהגשה, ומה שהיא לא הרגישה זה את הבדיקת העד, או שהספק הוא מתחיל עם זה שהיא עשתה משהו שמכסה. You do something that's going to cover the hagasha, so now you're stuck with a safek, maybe you had a hagasha. What do you do now? Could you prove you didn't have a hagasha? No, there's no way. But that's the safek. That's what I'm trying to tell you. What is the safek? Every time a woman has a hagasha... So the pshat is, pashut there was hagasha, so she did something which covered over the hagasha, so therefore she can't prove it. Oi, dilma maybe the pshat is that be'emes we don't know she had a hagasha, but you did something which covers over hagasha. That itself gives me—so how do you know for sure you didn't have a hagasha? Then the nafka mina would be if you didn't do something which covers over the hagasha, then depends how you learn the chazakah. That's exactly—just, that's where I'm getting at. Depends how you start with the chazakah. Is the chazakah, the chazakah and all these dinim are after the chazakah? That's one way to learn. Oi, dilma pshat is the chazakah is after the safek. It starts with the bedikas eid. The bedikas eid is mechayev a safek. Now the question is, do we use the chazakahs to fix it? It's a whole different sugya. It's a whole different shaila. Oh, so that's what I'm telling you. That's what I just said before. What happens if you have a safek on top of that? So then it's two sfeikos. But if you learn the pshat is it starts with chazakah and you have a safek, so it starts with a vadai. Then it started with a vadai. The nafka mina in the sugya is where do you start the safek from? Do it starts the safek that is baragasha, or the fact that you can't prove that sheloi baragasha, that makes a safek. The fact that you—now you... what? But you hear the nekudah? The fact that you don't have a raya that sheloi baragasha, that itself is mechayev that maybe there's a safek. Okay, we just started. Okay, we'll go slowly. Now, Yehn, you learned? You understand now? Afterei mincha. Gadi, Ashrei, Ashrei. After mincha. Ashrei.