Hilchos Niddah: Hargashah Without Blood, Safek Hargashah, and the Terumas HaDeshen

Transcript

Now I know I told you I will do beis. We will. We'll still do beis. I just want to finish aleph. We need to finish aleph. Ve'im hirgisha sheniftach mekorah, l'hotzi dam, u'badka achar kach v'lo matza klum, yesh mi she'omer shehi temei'ah. I need to say, b'ezras Hashem yisbarach, dayek b'chol milah. Every word, you hear? Rafi, every word. Every word this mechaber, I think, is what to talk about. B'chol milah yesh mashu l'daber, l'havin, lefalpel, lishol, l'hitaretz. Now, except the ve'im. The ve'im is if. Now where does it come from? It comes from a Terumas HaDeshen. Im hirgisha. So this is the Terumas HaDeshen's halacha, that if she felt, and she found nothing, she's tamei'ah. Hirgisha, meaning for sure. She knows for sure she felt, bli shum pikpuk, safek. Or im hirgisha, she feels, maybe she making a mistake, possible. How strong, how convinced does she have to be of this hargashah? So we're going to learn later on from the Pischei Teshuvah, b'shem the Noda B'Yehuda, right? Rafi, you did the Noda B'Yehuda. Safik hargasha. I mean, the lashon of the mechaber is hirgisha, not safik. Hirgisha means she felt. Hirgisha? Last time, safik. I know the biurim mistapek im din shel hatrumas hadeshen dafka hirgisha vadai, or afilu hirgisha safek. Now, I don't believe he means she's not sure, פירוש she's mesupak. But what he means is hirgisha vadai, without pikpuk, and hirgisha misafek meaning, yecholim lagid אולי לא שמה לב, אבל הרגישה. Okay, there's two types of safek. You can have a safek where you're not sure. I'm not sure, which means is, I think maybe I felt, I'm not sure if I felt. That's a real safek, you know, או כן או לא, I'm not sure, completely not sure. Or the pshat is, I know I felt, but I'm not 100% sure if I taka felt this, or maybe it's camouflage, maybe I thought it was this, it's really something else, which means maybe she wasn't someech. We didn't get there yet. We didn't get there. It's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, v'im, if, hirgisha. Hirgisha means she felt. So the Noda BiYehuda is going to be mistapek, hirgisha vadai or afilu hirgisha safek. So I'm just telling you that the word safek can mean two things, really. Safek can either mean she's misafek if she felt or she didn't feel. Or safek can also mean that she's not 100% sure. She knows she felt, but maybe the pshat is that she was busy and she missed. But she says, I felt, I never felt, right? Or it's even pshat is it's less than that. Even if it's a safek bichlal, she doesn't know. Maybe yeah, maybe not. She's not sure at all if she felt anything. We're gonna get back to this, but that's imergisha. Okay. Sheniftach mekorah lo hotzi dam. Now, niftach mekorah is one type of hargasha. There are many types of hargasha. We're gonna soon learn that this is also machlokes haposkim if the din of the trumas hadeshen is dafka by niftach mekorah, which is the, the main hargasha, or it's even by the other ones too. I'm gonna tell you that even in this, I'm not 100% sure what the diyun is. Is the diyun because niftach mekorah is the perek salient hargasha, which means it's the main one, or niftach mekorah it's the clearest one.

Is niftach mikoira because niftach mikoira is the ikur one, or niftach mikoira is because it's the most evident one, that she's for sure that it happened? What? Because I don't think anybody disagrees with niftach mikoira. Niftach mikoira is zecher, the daas gasha, the Torah. Shaila if the other ones are also. I don't know if it's the most precise. I think it's the most clear that that's definitely hargasha. Maybe it's not. No, no, maybe it's not. Maybe it's klal not. Maybe lahalacha it's not hargasha. Or the pshat is maybe she didn't feel it so much. Is the inyan of niftach mikoira if you hold it's davka because that's the main one, or the niftach mikoira is because it's the most evident? There's nothing to be mistapek. She felt it. Now, k'margisha sheniftach mikoira. What's your question? But that's the Rambam. I don't know if that's—I don't know if I'm saying. To diyuk in the Rambam and Tosafos, I'm not muchach that you have to learn that way. In other words, the niftach mikoira is the chalateis. That's the hargasha. Or the pshat is niftach mikoira is the most clear one. There's nothing to be mistapek, which niftach mikoira, lo yatzi dam. You know that she felt it. I mean, she's feeling—it's not zivas dam rach, it's not zizua guf, which you could say comes from something else. She felt niftach mikoira, lo yatzi dam. It's clear. It's an evident thing. It's not lo yatzi dam. U'vodka achar kach, lo hevanta ma. אז הפוסקים אומרים, אולי לאו דווקא נפתח מקורה; יכול להיות אפילו נזדעזע גופה, אפילו זיבת דבר לח, כל ההרגשות. It could be it's all the same. זה מחלוקת, סתם סופר מדבר על ש... או maybe דווקא because he picks this one. שנפתח מקורה לא הוציא דם. So I'm telling you, if you hold it's דווקא, אם בסוברים שזה דווקא, why would it be דווקא? So either you say because that's the עיקר הרגשה מן התורה. This is לכולי עלמא. נפתח מקורה is the one that's לכולי עלמא. נזדעזע גופה is a דעה. זיבת דבר לח is a שאלה between פוסקים. The עיקר one is נפתח מקורה. Or the pshat is, no, נפתח מקורה is הכי ברור. When you see what I want at the end of the shiur, you'll see how everything I'm saying is 100% ברור. Again, so ואמר גישה, what was the first shaila we asked Ilan? ספק. So I said, but it says הרגישה; it says that she definitely felt, right? Don't say if he meant even ספק, it should have said. If he meant ספק, shouldn't he have said, אפילו אם היא מסופקת שהרגישה? Why would you say הרגישה? The answer is, I don't think he means ספק. I don't believe the נודע ביהודה means she doesn't know. Which means is she felt, but there's room to say, you know something, maybe she's not 100% sure she's right. Maybe she doesn't know what she's talking about. It's not a safek hargasha, because then otherwise the Shulchan Aruch should have said. It bothers me, because you're saying a very big chiddush, and we don't even know if we pasken like the Trumas HaDeshen. It's a very big chiddush, the Trumas HaDeshen, to say, afilu a safek hargasha means. Say it halachically, say it clear. Say mergisha, and then say safek, maybe not, maybe safek. You want to know something? I hold safek we don't say. You know, I'll pasken to you right now, it's not mi-safek. And you want to know something? If you understood the din of the Trumas HaDeshen, it has to be that way. Because first of all, you don't know if the din of the Trumas HaDeshen is de'oraisa, maybe it's k'mehem d'rabbanan. And you don't know if the din of the Trumas HaDeshen is mi-safek or mi-vadai, maybe the whole thing is mi-safek. So maybe on a safek, which is already a safek and a derabbanan, maybe it's lekula. How do you know? I know it's true. So if that's true, then it should have been in the Shulchan Aruch, afilu safek, because it's true that it's a very big chiddush to say that it's even on a safek. That's why.

I'm telling you, I don't know if the ... means mamish safek. But the ... means that it's not a vadai that you can't vow for the hargasha. She definitely felt something, but she can't vow that it was hargasha. Maybe. You like it, you don't like it. That's the havanah I feel in the ... On kol panim, היא מרגישה, safek vadai, שנפתח מקורה, משמע דווקא this one. Why דווקא this one? We have to discuss it. ובדקה אחר כך. What's called אחר כך? Now the word אחר כך, מיד, מיד right away. The Chashukei Chemed learns like that. The Chashukei Chemed learns בדקה מיד. Comes along the Chasam Sofer, and he asks, I don't know what you're talking about. Where'd it go? I don't understand. You told me you checked. What's your chashash? Your chashash got lost. It just happened. Where'd it get lost? It disappeared in thin air. Where did it go? The Chasam Sofer in the teshuvos, siman kuf samech ches, says it's very difficult to say it's מיד אחר כך, because where did it go? In a few minutes you can come and say it got lost. Right away. בדקה מיד אחר כך. Considered taharah. Takah paskens, the Chazon Ish, you can't mean מיד אחר כך. You can't. Can't mean that. The Seder Taharah, if you look at the Pischei Teshuvah, he brings the Seder Taharah. So the Pischei Teshuvah, read it, read it. שיר וסת is מיד. That's what שיר וסת means. Whenever it says שיר וסת... Teida! You should know it means miyad. ... Mesupak, so it's a safek because he said it's not so clear. So what's the safek? I mean, Cheshbin, he's right, no? I mean, he's saying a logical thing, isn't he saying a logical thing? Elon, isn't it a logical thing? So why should Gedolei Yisrael just argue for the sake of arguing? I mean, if he's saying something logical, admit that he's right, no? He's saying ... no? I mean, what could be the tzad fakert? Where'd it go? Disappeared? What happened to it? Now the truth is, we could start saying maybe in the ... the ... So what if the other tzad, they didn't know this, they were foolish? What's the machlokes here? You're תולה במציאות. Where did it go? So one says, I don't know where it went. No one says it couldn't have went anywhere. He's right, couldn't have went. So what do you want? Ela mai, you mean because there is such a metzius that it disintegrates, what's wrong? What's wrong? Huh? What's wrong? If there is such type of a metzius, then it's possible. That's what they're arguing. There's no metzius like that, what would they say? There is a metzius, it's possible to be nimok. Disappeared. This is what are you arguing about? I don't say what we're arguing on facts. One says A, the other one says B, and they're talking Narishkeit, and I don't want to talk to him. What are they arguing? Because some ... didn't know that it could get lost in the ... What's he talking about? I mean, he's saying a logical thing. If it can get lost, it can get lost. If it can't get lost, it can't get lost. What are you fighting about? Huh? I mean, choshesh for what? I mean, if you have to be choshesh, you have to be choshesh. There's a percentage that it could be, it could be. Should you be choshesh for that or not? That's what it is about percentages. Kanach. Why do you, why do you kanach? If there is a percentage like that, should you be choshesh or not? Can you go so far or not? Maybe that's the pshat. Who says you checked well? And if she says she checked well, she checked a camera. So you know what? According to you, an isha should never become tahor. According to you, an isha should never be allowed to be tahor. She should never be allowed to have a hefsek taharah. Does he know what he's talking about? I never saw someone... I never saw someone bring a cup for the sake of drinking a cup. If a hefsek taharah, did you have someone... No. No, you don't. You don't have any chazkas taharah. It's not true. I'm not saying you have a chazakah. Over here you had a hargashah. Right, over here you were tamei. Let's say you want to make a hefsek taharah after two days of seeing. You want to make a hefsek taharah after two days of seeing. You want to make a hefsek taharah. So according to you, it shouldn't work, because who said? You have a camera? V'chi yesh camera shamma? That's your question. Don't talk stupid.

Try not to talk. She was vadai tamei this morning. She saw dam. She may have hafsak taharah. This morning, but she's doing it tonight, something else. Maybe it stopped. I don't understand what the shaychus morning to the evening. She had it two seconds ago. No, she did a good. Don't worry. So let me ask you a question. She didn't just hit her in the face and go, what came out? Something happened. So let me ask you a quick question. Let me ask you. According to you, then you shouldn't even have to check. Yeah, but there's other things that could have caused... If you found leicha levana, yes, fine. There's other colors that could come out. Oh yeah, leicha levana. What happens if it's dakah tahorah? What happens if it's... What? It's just nothing. You just... You really believe that a bedikah is not good? You could learn like that. You have to learn the old Hilchos Niddah. You're gonna come with an honest face, tell me that bedikah is not a good thing? You're talking. How could you come and say you made a bedikah and that's not good enough because maybe you don't know how to make a bedikah? Something. The makor opened, right? Something came out, so find it. Obviously you didn't do a good search. What kind of thing is that? If I put chametz in my house, I didn't find a single thing, but I know I put ten loaves in there. No, I obviously just vanished into thin air. What does that mean? So obviously you didn't do a good search. Can I ask you a simple question? According to you, right? According to you, why is it only derabbanan according to many shitos? Why is it only a safek according to many shitos? No, you just didn't answer my question. You didn't even hear my question. You just blurted out the first thing that came to your head. Okay, so raffi tainis, raffi tainis, that there's something going to be wrong with the bedika. I don't know. That's not really what it's... I didn't find any—did you find anybody who used those words? I found people that said something shouldn't come out. Okay, but did you see any person... about the bedika? I think she did a bad job in the bedika. Well, that's what he's saying. He's saying she did a bad job in the bedika. No, I think it's more like, he can't say, well, where did it go if it came out? Again, so I want to know the answer to the question. She checked and nothing happened. Where'd it go? A miracle happened. Disappeared very quickly, quicker than usual. Something happened, though. I'll tell you the truth. You're saying what I'm going to say eventually, but you're saying it so balabatish that I can't accept it. Because you're saying it in such a, like, I don't know, it's like a taxi driver would say it, you know what I mean? A taxi driver, if he had to say it, would say it that way. She didn't check good, and maybe if she checked good, it disappeared with a miracle. It's killing me the way you're saying it, okay?

The kasha is very good, and then you have to know, what are they arguing about? If it's shayach to get lost, then it's shayach to get lost. If not shayach, it's not shayach. Here, you check right away. Where'd it go? I don't see it. What happened to it? Okay, let's go back to... What? Yeah, got lost. The question is what happened. Hegisha, she found. Once again, while it dissolved. Bedikas do not dissolve dam, because if they did, then bedika should never, ever work. I don't know what you're talking about. According to you, if you feel that a bedika could dissolve dam, bedika should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever work. There shouldn't be such a thing called a bedika. Bedikas do not dissolve dam. And if women don't know how to make bedikas, then we're out of business. Then you can close shop in Hilchos Niddah, what should I tell you? If you feel that a woman can't make a bedika, then there's nothing more to talk about. Nothing more to talk about. Okay, now. V'loy matza klum. What is loy matza klum? What happens is she found maris tehoros. It doesn't say, it just says she didn't found nothing. Yesh mi she'omer shehi temeiah. Some say, there is someone that says that she's tamei. This, of course, is a very shver lashon. What do you mean, yesh mi she'omer? Do you say it? If it's a trumas hadeshen, so quote the truma. There is somebody, like, you know, yesh omrim. What does yesh omrim mean? Okay, now. It's a very different lashon. It's not the creation; yesh oimrim. Okay, now. So we spoke, hirgisha, we weren't sure what the hargasha was, right? If it's only niftach mekorah, right, Piskei Teshuvos, seif katan gimmel. The Chasam Sofer says even zizu haguf, it's the hargasha of the Rambam. The Chochmas Adam, in siman chav tes, says even zivas davar lach. The Chasam Sofer is cholek, and he says no, by zivas davar lach, you won't have the din of the trumas hadeshen. Does that mean because he held that according to the Trumas Hadeshen, that's not called a hargasha? No, it is a hargasha. So if it's a hargasha, and she definitely felt it, according to the Noda BiYehuda's story, so then what are you arguing? Why shouldn't it be by a zivas davar lach? So I saw there's a me'iri chiddush from the Beis Meir. The Beis Meir wants to say that even if you hold that zivas davar lach is not a hargasha, it's still going to make the din of the Trumas Hadeshen. Sure it does. Sure it makes sense. It makes sense if you listen to it and you try to learn, you'll learn from it. What? You hear? You're listening to a Beis Meir is a chiddush? A gevaldige, gevaldige chiddush from the Beis Meir. A zivas davar lach, you hear? Yeah, a zivas davar lach. If you hold that it's not a hargasha, right, nevertheless, nevertheless, the halacha would be that the din of the terumas hadeshen is correct. Yeah? Right? Chiddush, haflafah with a chiddush. Pashut, you learn that they're arguing what's hargasha. Is it the main hargasha or even the weaker hargashas? According to the Beis Meir, obviously, he takes out the sugya of hargasha. It has nothing to do with hargasha. So what's the pshat? So I'll tell you what I think the pshat is. What do you call bedikah, u'badkah? What's called bedikah? So the Chavos Daas, in siman kuf tzadik, Chasam Sofer in siman kuf pei says, badkah is badkah. Badkah means becheirim u'mesadakin. You got to do a regular bedikah. Reb Akiva Eiger says it's not muchach in the terumas hadeshen that you need a regular bedikah.

A kinuach is good enough. Hirgisha, uvadka achar kach, she'hu bodek, which means she didn't do a regular full bedikah. Lo matza klum, yesh mi she'omer she'hi tehorah. If she would have done a regular bedikah, then she taka wouldn't be tehorah. Interesting, right? So, bedikah. And what's her chiyuv bedikah? Let's say it that way. What's her chiyuv bedikah? From the trumas hadeshen's mashma, that she's supposed to be bodek. What is her chiyuv bedikah? Now I'm asking, what is her chiyuv bedikah, a regular bedikah or a kinuach? So the Tzemach Tzedek, chaves daas, a regular bedikah. Kiveiger says no. That according to the Chavos Daas, she's not going to be mechuyev to make a regular bedikah. That's right. As long as she made a kinuach, it's good enough. Why? Yeah? Again, you know who has pages on this? The Badei HaShulchan. The Badei HaShulchan, in his biurim, pages. Mamash, he goes through b'arichus about this nekudah. Do you need to make a bedikah, or it's good enough just to make a kinuach? What's the machlokes? What are they arguing? What are they arguing? Let me tell you what I think is going on. Listen. I want to understand the yesh mi she'omer. What does it mean, yesh mi she'omer? So the Teres Hashlamim says that yesh mi she'omer is not a cheap psak. That's how the Mechaber paskens. Why does he use the lashon of yesh mi she'omer? Because he couldn't find anybody else that says it. Plain and simple. Teres Hashlamim, se'if katan beis. Go ahead, Ilan, read it. He wrote yesh mi she'omer because it's a tremendous chiddush. But he liked it, he liked it, but he said there's someone that says he couldn't find anybody else that says it. But if you hold like that, say it. That's what means being mechadesh. That's the Teres Hashlamim's chiddush. According to the Mechaber, the way you're supposed to read the yesh mi she'omer, it's only because he didn't find anybody else that says it. But he held of it as strong as could be, right? A chiddush, right? You look at the Pischei Teshuva, se'if katan zayin. Pischei Teshuva, se'if katan zayin. He brings from the Radvaz. The Radvaz says, no, that the reason why it says yesh mi she'omer, because—not so pashut—who said? Go ahead, read it, read it. Pischei Teshuva, se'if katan zayin. ... The one who's cholek. יש משאים, so what? The Mechaber said יש משאים, so what? So there is somebody asking the opposite. Tell me, what does the Rama hold? Obviously he agrees. He knows he's not cholek, right? Ah, so he did your homework. I also did my homework. So everybody says this, by the way, from the fact that the Rama doesn't say anything, it's mashma he's maskim. Not really. I'll tell you why. If you look at the documentation, the beginning of Kuf Pei Ches, he asks on the Terumas HaDeshen, I'm actually talking about it. Why should she be tamei? For what? For what? And he says, it's tzarich iyun. I guess maybe he didn't directly argue, but he definitely didn't hold of it. He definitely wasn't to green. So maybe he didn't feel the need to argue on, bifrat all the Mechaber says was yesh mi she'omer. Maybe the Rama learned the Mechaber yesh mi she'omer, so he says, I'm not going to—I can't argue on that. Can I argue that there's a Terumas HaDeshen that says that? I can't argue. You weren't oymen on this? What's the pshat in the Rama? The Rama is a blank. Rama is quiet. Why is the Rama quiet over here? So everybody says the Rama lomed, ... maskim laMechaber. One second, if you look at the documentation, Kuf Pei Ches, he says clearly it's a tzarich iyun gadol. Why should you pasken like the Terumas HaDeshen? For what? So either—

The pshat is because the Rama said, Yesh mi sheomer, u'tzadek, yesh mi sheomer kach. Or the pshat is that he didn't have what to argue, but at the same time he didn't have that he held of it necessarily. So therefore the Rama just left it blank, yechol yot. What's the reason to argue? What's the pshat to argue on the Trumas Hadeshen? So if you look at the Trumas Hadeshen, he bases it on a yesod that vestes is a de'oraisa. That since vestes is a de'oraisa, which means when it's supposed to come, we say that it's the de'oraisa, we consider it a kein. So hargasha is no different than vestes. So the first thing is, wait a minute, we don't pasken vestes de'oraisa. We don't pasken. We pasken that vestes is only derabbanan. So right away that's the reason not to hold of the Trumas Hadeshen. The second point, who said vestes and hargasha is the same thing? Vestes we can hold it's de'oraisa, to be machmir, and hargasha is something else. Vestes means the day that it's supposed to come. So you see that whenever you anticipate it's de'oraisa, so meila hargasha has to be the same. That's a different — that's a piskei teshuva, we'll get to that later. There's a piskei teshuva about it. If the din of the Trumas Hadeshen, if you don't pasken like him, is it worse on a day of a vestes? Piskei Teshuva brings this down, his case. So first of all— We pasken vestes Rabbanan. Second of all, who said that vestes is the same thing as hargasha? Who said? Third of all, even the mechaber, who brings the terumas hadeshen, we don't even know pshat in the terumas hadeshen. Maybe the terumas hadeshen himself never said temeiah min haTorah. Maybe the terumas hadeshen himself only means mi-safek or derabbanan, which is a safek in the poskim, pshat in the terumas hadeshen. Mameila, you can't ask a kasha why the mechaber uses the lashon yesh mi she'omer. Because it's takke not chamur. It's takke not de'oraisa. Because he's not going to come and say temeiah, which is mashma de'oraisa. It's takke not de'oraisa. So either the pshat, you learn like the Teras HaShlamim, that yesh mi she'omer, it's de'oraisa. Yeah? Either—okay, see here, Daniel, you with me? Ain what? I'm first getting to the facts. I don't know what the facts are yet. Is the terumas hadeshen real? Is it de'oraisa? Is it a chumra? Is it a safek? What is the terumas hadeshen? Okay? Now. It would come out a Mordechai chiddush. It would come out a Mordechai chiddush, right? You hear? But before we get to the chiddush, let's just read the Trumas HaDeshen inside. Does anybody have it inside? So I want to read the words inside. There's some interesting wording that I had trouble with. Yes, sevara d'Oraisa. I didn't know what that means. Yeah. What does it say? Nir'eh. What does it say? Nir'eh. Whatever, nir'eh means it's a chiddush of the Trumas HaDeshen. Nir'eh, yeah? Go ahead, continue, yeah. Yeah. What does it mean, hargashah sevara d'Oraisa? What kind of a lashon is hargashah sevara d'Oraisa? I don't know what it means. It's a weird lashon, no? I'm trying to understand the lashon. Hargashah sevara d'Oraisa. You mean it's d'Oraisa? What do you mean exactly? Sevara? What means sevara? Very interesting lashon. It's a sevara d'Oraisa. What is it, a pashtus? Reb Chaim? Hargashah d'Oraisa, no? Go ahead. He says that what? Hargashah sevara d'Oraisa.

Heicha? When is it d'Oraisa? When? We have no other time; you can't be toleh on anything else. Hagasha's d'Oraisa, when she felt it come out. So what are you talking about? It's d'Oraisa ki heicha that you can't be toleh on something else. What does that mean? Isha shehigisha shenifta... Remember I asked you, what is it called safek? What did you call safek? Safek means she doesn't know if she had it, or safek is we're not sure, maybe she doesn't know, maybe she was busy with something, maybe she doesn't chap what she had. Interesting lashon, no? It's not a d'Oraisa; it's d'Oraisa heicha, the efshar limitli. Say it's d'Oraisa. Go ahead, yeah. So he says, ... al haketem d'parish, hanimtza al hachazah tehorim v'nekuvan. Id argisha, mai tehorim? Alma, d'svara d'Oraisa, v'dechayev aleha korban. Even d'svara d'Oraisa, havi k'mo l'man d'amar v'sa d'Oraisa, d'afilu badka matzaa tehora. Therefore it's like the man d'amar says vestes d'Oraisa. Humble, unbelievable stuff. It's unbelievable. Svara d'Oraisa, ki heicha where you can't be toleh, and memeila, what does he say chiddush? Therefore it's like hargasha; it's like the vestes. Okay. Let me tell you what I think he's saying. I don't believe he's saying hargasha means you're tamei d'Oraisa. Hargasha means it makes a safek. Safek d'Oraisa. That's what it makes. The Torah says, be mistapek. So therefore, go check. If you have anything else that you could say what it is, that's what it is. You're left with the safek if you can't be toלה on anything else. Why is it only a safek? Why is it only a safek? But that's what it says. What it says is it's a svara d'oraisa. There's a mechanics behind hargasha. Hargasha isn't oser. Remember we once started at the beginning of nidah to ask this question: hargasha, is itself the metameh, or is hargasha like a siman? Remember we asked this? If you learn it's a siman, it's a mareh d'var. What he's saying is it's a siman min haTorah. It's a svara that something is here. So siman is the taich, unless hekfa taich it differently, fine. If the hargasha is metameh, there's nothing to discuss. She's tamei, that's all. Since it's only telling you—meaning, meaning—like vestes. Whatever vestes tells you, says the Trumas HaDeshen, that's what hargasha tells you. I love this. You want to know something? You've seen the mind of the Trumas HaDeshen, the way he explained it, the way he brought hargashas into the picture. I asked you, what shaychus does that have with vestes? And the teretz is, he's saying it's the same lomdus as vestes. Vestes means tachshosh. That's what vestes means. Hargasha means tachshosh. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's very possible, and that's what I'm getting to. If you have a safek, ... hargasha, so it's a safek-safek, and that's what the ... is saying. Wait a minute, let's slow down. Kol zman you don't have a vadai hargasha, so there's no din, because the vadai hargasha just tells me what? To be mistapek. So if the mesafek is, so good, I'm mistapek, but there's a safek, I don't have what. So once I have a safek, I have what to be toleh on. It doesn't remain hargasha with a safek d'Oraisa. The whole vadai d'Oraisa is to be mistapek, that you can't find anything else to be toleh on. So once you're mesupak, meileh you have to say that she's tehorah. ... beautiful. I'm gonna get there, I'm not holding it yet. Why am I toleh in this? Okay, because if you hold hargasha metameh, then it's tamei. Right, so you know what that hargasha tells me? Be mistapek. No, no, in the point that hargasha itself is the point, she finds leicha lavan.

What, what, what, what, what? Yeah. In the tzad, the hargasha itself is a metame. It's not a siman; it is the metame. Yeah, when there's dam. No, no, no. The hargasha with dam is—the hargasha is metame. Hargasha with dam. If it's no dam, it's also something. I don't understand, that's the point, no? What? Even hargasha itself is the metame, but... So therefore, could be it's not the hargasha that was metzi dam. You see, you see there's hargasha. That's what I'm trying to say. It's not a shaylah of chakirah which would hargasha it's a siman. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Because if you learn that hargasha is a siman, it's a siman for what? It's a siman that therefore the siman is mechayev safek, that's all it's mechayev. If hargasha is—that's a din that you need it. If there's dam in hargasha, then it's vadai; there's nothing what to torah. And if you have a safek in that, it's a safek d'Oraisa. But if you learn that it's just a siman, like vestes, to be choshesh, you know what hargasha tells me? Hargasha tells me there might have been a period. So kol zman you can be toleh b'davar acher, mimeila you say there's a period. The minute you can be toleh b'davar acher, so the hargasha doesn't mean more than that. So misafek you can't be metame. What's wrong? I don't see. And the other side would say what? Hargasha is the metame, but tonight there's dam, but there's no dam, so therefore what? Safek... No, no, no. Hargasha is metame. Hargasha is metame when there's dam. But there's no dam. Yes, there is. You're a safek dam. That means the whole thing is a safek now, right? But by telling you that you're vadai, right? So safek d'Oraisa is l'chumra. Good, so now you have another safek, becomes a sfek-sfeika. So what's your other safek? Rebbe is saying the following. Rebbe is saying there's two chakiros in hargasha. Either it's a siman or it's the metame. Right. If it's a siman and you add another safek, then becomes a sfek-sfeika. Mashenkin if it's a metame and you add another safek, then it's not sfek-sfeika. I'm saying it makes no difference. Whichever way you go, there's always going to be a safek, because you never found dam. I don't think it's a safek-safek. I don't agree with you. You know, we have different כללים. I know we have different כללים in sfek sfeika. I don't think having a hargasha, not seeing dam, is a safek. It's not. It's a safek. It's one safek. Right. Now she has a safek hargasha. But I'm trying to explain to you, maneh נפשך, it's not mishapech. Once she had a hargasha, then she had to have dam. The fact that she didn't find it isn't a safek. What's the difference? Maybe saying it was a different hargasha would explain. Then what? Because she found nothing. Normal hargasha is lohitzi dam. She felt lohitzi dam. She felt a regular hargasha. It's not a safek-safek. It's not mishapech. Don't you understand? It's not the safek-safek. One safek is maybe something came out, maybe dam came out. One safek is — you're talking about the נדה יהודה — one safek if she had a hargasha. And the second safek is... and the צד that she had a hargasha, hargasha is motzi dam. That's a regular hargasha. I, she didn't find it, that's her problem. There is no safek-safek. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Yeah, but not hargasha. The נדה יהודה is not a safek-safek. The נדה יהודה is one safek, and still it's mutar, because that is the din of hargasha. No, no, I'm telling you, that's if you learn regular sfeikas of shehad hargasha. But if you learn that the safek is not that she had hargasha, the safek is that you could be toleh maybe her hargasha was from something else. I'm learning a whole different pshat in safek. I'm learning a whole different pshat. That's what I'm telling you. The way I learned... This vadei hargasha in the Trumas HaDeshen, it's in the words of the Trumas HaDeshen, because the safek means I can be toleh b'davar acher. And mameila, you don't even have the first safek. You don't even have the din. The whole din hargasha is that it's only temeiah if you can't be toleh b'davar acher. I'm telling you a moiridike yesod. I'm telling you a moiridik of the heter. In the Trumas HaDeshen itself, you're not sure what. Okay, there's nothing to be confused. Either you play the ספק ספק again, which I told you, I don't know if that's a chakirah. You have a safek maybe she saw, maybe she didn't see, maybe she felt, maybe she didn't feel. So then the Shulchan Aruch should have talked about it. The Shulchan Aruch should have talked about if מסופקת if she was here gisha. I'm learning that the safek is not a safek on the safek. Once you have a safek that you can be toleh hargasha b'davar acher, that's not already the din of hargasha.

So what's the possible? Only clearly the translation presents is leicha levanakin. Obviously that's what it was. He doesn't say, oh, she was also doing exercise, and that's why her makor opened up. What else would you be toleh b'pitchei...? Yeah, so when she's not vadai, when you're not sure— What's the not vadai? That's what I want. What's the not vadai? Let's say she's not sure. She felt it, but she wasn't sure. But you said that's not the safek. I'm telling you, it's not that she doesn't sure if she felt it or not. She felt it, but she could attribute it to something else. That maybe she didn't feel it. Maybe she's being toleh. So what is that other thing that could have been instead of— Maybe she's toleh. Maybe she's what? She's toleh. Maybe she's making a mistake. That's the same thing as— Maybe it wasn't. Maybe the niftach mekor wasn't lehotzi dam. Maybe she's sick. That means she didn't feel it at all. She felt lehotzi dam. The question is now that she felt niftach mekor lehotzi dam. So that's a hargashah. You know what hargashah means? Hargashah means that if you know for sure that there's nothing else but lehotzi dam, then it's tamei. The minute you're not 100% sure it's lehotzi dam, then she's not tamei. I'll tell you where I'm coming from. You know where I'm coming from. What happens if she sees these— feels these hargashos, and geradah, every time she checked, it was leiches levanos. It wasn't. It was tahor. So does she now still have to be worried for— There's machlokes haposkim, you know that, right? Some say she still has to check, but what's the machlokes? This is the machlokes. This is the safek. Hargashah means d'Oraisa, so you're mesupak, so you can't come and say, Well, last time— who cares about last time? What does last time have to do? According to Teitches that we could be toleh that every time she's margish, this is not lo yatzi dam, so the hargasha itself is not mechayev to be choshesh. Okay, let me say it again. The what? See, I don't think that's true. I don't think—the way to learn it is, there's hargasha, and obviously she's always tahor from these hargashos. I'll give you an example, one of the best examples. What happens if she has hargashos, yeah, and she always has leiches livanos, and then it happens to her during her zayin nekiyim. She has these hargashos invited, it's tahor. So you'll say, why? But she has these hargashos. These hargashos don't mean anything, right? R' Moshe holds not like that. R' Moshe holds that you have to go— That's right, because you need a chazakah in the zayin nekiyim that these hargashos mean nothing. So I'm asking you, but you see that these hargashos don't mean anything. But again, these hargashos that she felt, that's mechayev her to come and say— I mean, most poskim argue. Most poskim hold it doesn't make a difference. What's the difference? Because I think Rav Moshe's learning that it has to do not with the hargashes, but with the taharah. No, if she can come with the chazakah, so she has a chazkas taharah with these hargashes. She has the hargash; the hargashes are hargashes, but she has a chazkas taharah that these hargashes aren't metameh her. There's no chazakah. It's exactly what Rav Moshe said. Now, so what they're saying is that could be there's no chazakah in the first place. According—either the taich is there's no hargashah or there's no chazakah, a chazkas taharah. I'm saying, l'maaseh, the gevalt, there's no hargashah. If there's leichos levanos coming out, so you see that these hargashes aren't motzi dam, so they're not even hargashes in the first place. Moshe's saying that they're hargashes, but these hargashes will be metameh, so you need a special chazakah for the zayin nekiyim. Okay, let me say it again. Let's start again.

What's wrong? What happened was that as the shiur gets hotter, the seats get less. They get smaller. Okay, let's start again. We have over here a perplexing Trumas HaDeshen, okay? What's perplexing about the Trumas HaDeshen? We don't even know where he got it from, because he made it up, right? He just said, nireh. It's something that he decided. What's it based on? It's based on vestes d'Oraisa. First of all, we pasken vestes derabbanan. It's such an analogy where you're jumping from one thing to the next, hagasha d'Oraisa to vestes d'Oraisa. It's two different things, right? Okay. Does the Trumas HaDeshen mean vadai, or does the Trumas HaDeshen mean also temeiah misafek? Does he mean d'Oraisa? Does he mean derabbanan? Then we have a Noda Bihuda comes along and says, Wait a minute. Vadai hirgisha. If it's only safek, peirush makes a lot of sense. If you hold the whole Trumas HaDeshen is only misafek, and the whole Trumas HaDeshen is only derabbanan, let's say, it's all chveis hachumra mitoch chumra mitoch chumra, so whenever you have a safek, then you have to be meikel even according to Trumas HaDeshen. That's the simple way to learn the Noda Bihuda. Okay? What's the chelkim? What are they arguing in? So maybe there is nobody that argues. I don't know. Maybe it's just a ... and nobody thought of it till the ... came. L'maaseh, the Shulchan Aruch doesn't talk about a safek. It talks about the case where it's pegisha, right? So maybe, like you just said, this is when it's vadai, so when it's a safek, it's not that way. But if you look at the Trumas HaDeshen, you see that he's saying very, a very, what do we call it, art, artistic thing. He's saying very artistic. He says like, he never says hargasha is d'Oraisa. He said it's a sevara d'Oraisa. What do you mean by it's a sevara d'Oraisa? What sevara? What are you referring to? Second of all, he doesn't say that it's d'Oraisa. He says where it's not shayach, lemitli b'something else. And third of all, what does he say? It's like vestos. So what does that have to do with vestos? And the Teretz says, no, he's learning hargasha is not a metameh b'dam. It's not the stain. A hargasha is a siman that the period is here. Hargasha means you should know that if there's nothing else that you can be toleh it on, you should know that it's the period. Hargasha is not a condition of the tumah, but hargasha is a symptom of a period. So if I can't be toleh it on anything, automatically, it's telling me that it's the period. What? So slow. That's what I'm saying. Like, if you didn't find dam, that itself is telling me that it's not the period. You can't have a period. It was like this. Could you go in and say, This is a milk container, so probably what's in the— if you find milk in a milk container, what is it? Milk. Let's say you open up the milk container and it's empty. So what are you gonna say? It's not a milk container? It's a milk container. The milk container doesn't mean that there's milk. V'lecharai, because I checked it, there was no milk inside. Finished. So the shaila becomes, safek hargasha, peirush. Where is the hargasha, a siman, ki heichi d'i efshar limtlei b'davar acher. I mean, once there's a safek— it's not just a safek in the din. There's no hargasha. Hargasha means to tell me that you're supposed to be mitli, tali, only where I can't be toleh b'davar acher. Which means, if there's hargasha and you have dam, that tells me there's a period. So when you're not sure there is a hargasha.

Which means I could be toleh a hargasha in something else. So that's not a hargasha. You have to check? If what? Do you have to make a bedikah on a safek hargasha? You have to make a bedikah on a safek hargasha. So I'm telling you, maybe not. That's the shailah of Noda B'Yehuda. That's the shailah of Noda B'Yehuda. It's not a hilchos... You don't have to come and say it's in dinei sfeik sfeika, that it's only derabbanan and it's a safek. You don't have to go there. You need a vadai hargishah, because the sevara d'Oraisa is... Here, let me ask you a question. Could you have a safek vest? That's not a safek. I don't call that a safek. I don't know if I call that a safek vest. You know, I'll prove it to you. You want me to prove it to you? Because a vest, you don't have to be choshesh if it's not kavua. No, I want to say before the third time, you know what it is? It's a safek. Try not to argue with me on every word I say, and try to listen, okay? Try. Try. Let's do an exercise. We're going to exercise the mind. To try to understand what I want is svara d'Oraisa. The word svara d'Oraisa does not mean hargasha d'Oraisa. It means there's a svara that it's coming, like vestos. And that svara that it's coming means that if I have something to be toleh on, I can automatically be toleh. Meileh, there's no sugya of safek. Safek goes out the window. Now, let's go back and see all the shailas that we asked. Okay, we started off by saying, hirgisha vadai or hirgisha safek, right? I tained that safek means there is no trumas hadeshen. What the Trumas HaDeshen is saying is that whenever you have hargasha, hargasha is a siman that the period is coming, unless I could come and say that it's something else. Once I know for sure that I had this hargasha, that itself is a reason to say that I don't have the siman anymore. What? To not know whether the siman came or not is not the same as a teliyah. Teliyah means I vadai had the siman, but I could assign it to something else. Right, so I'm saying more than that. That's what I wanted to be mechadesh, that it's very possible—to me, I feel that way—I feel that it's very possible that when something is just a siman... When it's not clear that it's there, it's not a siman. I believe—you hear what I'm talking about? You see what I'm saying? See, that's what I want. I want you to hear what I'm saying. What I'm saying is like this: you can't have a siman if it's not a siman. There's no such a thing as a siman when it's not a siman, right? You can have a din hagasha, and you're not sure, so then you're safek if you had hagasha. If hagasha means that it has to be that it's telling me that I can't be toleh b'davar acher, so the minute you don't know you had it, then the whole hagasha is not hagasha. Okay. We said you check right away, right? We said that you check right away. Okay, you'll argue later. You'll argue later. I'm making a lot of sense. You'll argue later. Yeah? He said that you check right away. So we said that—what do you mean, if you check right away, there's no sevara of where it went, right? So how could you come and say that she's tamei? You know, the teretz is if you hold the hagasha itself is metameh her—and hachanami, there's not, I don't care. Yes. Yes, unless the hagasha is—unless I could find and say...

It's this. I don't care. Hargasha is the reason to consider her tamei like a vest. Yeah, but why? Because there was something there. A vest doesn't have to be that she sees dam for the hargasha. That's what she felt. That's what she felt. The feeling was there. You understand what I'm talking about? It's gevalt. I hold I'm saying a pashut devar. The truth is that that's just saying once there's hargasha, if you can't prove what happened to the dam, I don't care. The other shitos are saying, wait a minute, it's not that you're supposed to come and say she's tamei with hargasha. Hargasha is supposed to give you a svara that it's probably here, but if it's not here, it's not here. The question is, finding the dam, is the final or the metamei? Are you tamei with hargasha, and the pshat is if you found something tahor, memeila you're tahor? Or the other way around, hargasha tells me to be choshesh. But if it doesn't make sense, what happened to the dam? So what am I choshesh for exactly? Okay, let's go further now. With this— Yeah. So what happens to סעיף ב'? Then you'll scream at me that I didn't do סעיף ב'. I still have סעיף ב' to do. Huh? The what? What? Where? What? Yeah? The what?