Hilchos Kesamim: Attributing Stains to Insects—A Fixed Shiur or Actual Tliyah?

Transcript

Im harga, im harga pishpeish. So we medayek, dafka harga. But stam, we're not going to be toleh b'pishpeish. So the Rishonim ask, why not? If there is such a thing as pishpeish, it's just like the macholus. Gam ken, ata tzrich ladaas she'arakta? I'ma tzrich ladaas she'arakta. So the Rashba tackles. The Rashba says, Anacha nami, kesheyesh pishpeish v'zeh matzui, shayach, therefore we say pishpeish. The Beis Yosef says it has to be more matzui, has to be matzui, then we can be toleh b'pishpeish. So I'm asking, if there is such, and the Bach says no, the Bach says it doesn't make a difference, dafka harga. If it's not harga, then you can't say pishpeish, pishpeish gara. You can't say that. So the question is based on the Beis Yosef. According to the Beis Yosef, that if it's matzui, you can be toleh, so first of all, why don't you bring it? Why do you bring only from harga? Bring the case that if it's matzui. Unless you say that b'yamav was matzui, maybe. Maybe harga is dafka, and achanami, if it would come back a time when it would be more matzui, then achanami, right? That's what you have to say. Maybe that the reason why the Mechaber doesn't bring it, because — rabosai, rabosai — shh. Yeah? So the Mechaber doesn't bring it because it's not so matzui. Right? Idilma. Yeah, maybe we could say something else. You ready? Maybe the kina was something that was shchiach to make dam, whether or not horga, lo harga. This is like an animal. If there's an animal, it's going to make dam on you unless you killed it. In other words, the chances of having it is only if you kill it. Meaning, what do I mean to say? It's not the matzui and the metzius of having it, period, but it's matzui to make dam when it's harga. Meaning, meaning, that lo yitzur, it's so matzui that every time you sat down, you killed it. I mean, let's talk l'maaseh. Let's say it's a cockroach. It could be matzui, but it doesn't mean that. If you know you killed it, then you could say there's dam. If you didn't know you killed it, mechtaisa. By kina, it could be the pshat is the fact that it makes dam was matzui. Which one? The kina? It could be the kina's in the bed. That's the way I understood it. The kina's in the bed. So when you have blood, the shchichus. And the truth is, I'm going to tell you soon that I don't hold that machlokes has to do with shchichus, because it has to do with the Torah that I hold that the tliya is different. It's going to be different types of tliya. By machlokes, you don't need a tliya. That it should make sense. But I don't want to go there yet. I just first want to differentiate. First let's break up the difference, the metzius difference. I think the metzius difference is machloikes. Machloikes is the pshat. The dam from the machloikes doesn't need that you knew you killed it to be shechiach, to be found there dam on your clothing. Meaning, let's, I'll give you an example. You ready? I'll give you the best example. Mosquitoes—not today, because today they killed out all the mosquitoes—but when I was in Camp Torah, okay, 20 years ago in the Catskills, they used to eat you up alive, the mosquitoes, okay? Did you need to know that a mosquito bit you, that when you saw something in your hand you knew it was a mosquito bite? The minute you start to scratch, you knew you were getting mosquito bites. When you start scratching in the Catskills, what is it? It's mosquito bites, right? So you don't need to come and say, Well, I saw the mosquito biting me. Pishpeish is the pshat. Even if there's these bugs around, they could be crawling around, but it doesn't mean that they make blood on you unless you knew it. Tell me, are there spiders all over—are there spiders all over the Catskills? Yes, there is. Yes. But if you start scratching, the first thing that comes to your mind that—

The spider bite. The first thing that comes to your mind is a mosquito bite. No, spiders are also shechiach, but I'm talking about to make dam maybe they're not shechiach. To cause dam on you, it's not shechiach. You can have bugs running all over the place. Here, you have beetles running all over, those little beetles, yeah? You can have them running all over the place. Ants. You can have ants running all over the place. But if you start scratching, you know it's a mosquito bite. Why? There's ants everywhere. It could be there's more ants than there are mosquitoes. But the chances are that the symptom, the teitzah, is usually from this. So the blood on the clothing could have been more from macholos than from pishpesh. This is what I tried to answer. The first teretz I'm saying is it could be that the Beis Yosef in his time didn't have it. He didn't have it, so therefore he gave you the case of hargah. And the second pshat is, that could be that when you see dam, when you see dam, it's more from macholos than it is from turmos. So in order to come and say—I'm sorry, pishpesh—in order to come and say pishpesh, what do you need to say? One is a shechiach in the bug. I don't think—so I'm telling you, not in the mechaber, I'm telling you, that when the Mechaber talks matzui, why don't you bring it down? Teretz is because maybe the amount of matzui is such, you could say the shechichus of the dam makes sense. It's a different nekudah. You need to verify why is this on your clothing. Lui tzuyer, it's so common. So, m'meila, here, I'll give you another—I want you a perfect example. What are the chances of you stepping on a locust? Zero, right? Do you know that in Staten Island, every sixteen or something years, there is an inch on the ground that doesn't have locust, okay? So the fact that it's so matzui, you can come and say, if I stepped and I find blood on my shoe, it's so matzui, then I could be toleh in the dam, right? That's machlokes. Machlokes was so matzui in the oifen that it could cause dam on the clothing. When they talk about matzui by the pishpesh, it has—its pshat is it's around, but the fact that it makes dam on me, k'teisa. So therefore I need the ma'aseh of horga, that I know the dam is already there, and I was connected to that dam of that pishpesh, so m'meila I could come and say, Oh, it's this. Now, what do I want? Let's go one step further. Oi dilma, or maybe we could say, givaldige pshat, and I hold it's emes, and it's a yesod and it's a very big nafka mina lahalacha. You ready? Machlokes could be as a shiur. You don't have to find the direct connection between you, the dead bug, the dead bug, or someone else says this. Okay, probably you saw it by lamdonim, because that's how a lamdan would say it. You see. Okay? Even the pshat, rabosai, is there's a machloikes, yeah? But what do you— okay, just close it. Take it and close it. What do you have to do with the machloikes? Close it, close it. Close it. Press the red button. What do you have to do with the machloikes? Maybe nothing. But since be'etzem there is a machloikes, and since be'etzem machloikes makes dam, and since it's shayach that you had to the machloikes, that's good enough. Masha'en kein by the story of pishpesh. The story of pishpesh, you takke need a teliyah. You know, in English we call it, when you have a case— what do they, when they call a murder case? So you have to what? You have to have linking— put something here for me, I'm boiling in here— you have to link the evidence to the crime scene, to the killer, right, to the convicted. That's what I hold. He brings the same mashal with the crime scene? No, okay. This is what I want to taina. Pishpesh— pishpesh is the pshat that you need to link it. So therefore there has to be a hargashah. You need one more step. Machloikes, you don't have to go there. Okay. Lefi zeh— I'm getting there, I'm getting right there. That's exactly where—

I'm getting to. Lefi zeh, I want to mechadesh something. I heard this from Rav Roth, but I think it's also in his sefer. Could be it's in, I think it's in his sefer also. What happens b'zman hazeh that we don't have this pishpesh? Or even better, we don't even know what it is. You know what it is. Let me ask you, what would happen—what? What's it called? Vants. You know what a vants is? Any creeping, crawling creature could be called a vants. And I want to tell you something else. Do you know that they call people today schwants? Any guy who bothers you, you call, Ah, that guy's a schwants. You know what is a schwants? A pishpesh. So that's it. So maybe you should have to shiur the size of people now, because there's a vants. I found a vants that causes, causes damage. What's the pshat, rabosai? The pshat is, macholis is a shiur. Macholis isn't a tliyah that you have to be connected. You have to be possible to be connected to it, but we don't have to connect you to it. Mashenkein over here, it's a real tliyah. So lu yatzuyer if the pishpesh got smaller, then there's tormus, so therefore the whole sugya of pishpesh falls off. Macholis, we learned that if the macholis have different shiurim today, we said from the Chasam Sofer and others that it stays. Pishpesh is not like that. Pishpesh, since it's a tliyah that needs hargah, since it's a tliyah which means it needs to be directly connected, la to you, so therefore the sugya of pishpesh would be that if it's not clear the tliyah, there we leave it alone. Okay. The Seder Torah. Has a very nice shaila, Sif Katan Tes-vav. Very nice shaila. Halacha is, what happens if you have two grisin, and we spoke about horga one of them, shehorga macholes, and there's another one, which you don't know where it came from. So it's good. You know why? Because one you were horga, and the other one, kina, so you could be toleh. So he asks a gevaldige kasha. It's a sugya of turmoses, horga. So let's say she found more. Could we come and say now, okay, so you have the gris also because of the kina? Says the Siddur Taharah, why not? So the turmus would be for the shiur of turmus, and the actual will be for the shiur of gris. L'maaseh it says, ad ki-turmus. Ad ki-turmus. It's mashma that's the cutoff point, till turmus, yeah? So the question is, what happens to the Siddur Taharah's case? So ein hachanami, the Chavos Daas says ein hachanami, it can't be turmus. That's your cutoff point. Ailu maaseh could be there's also a kina also. No, you can't play this game. Either it's this or it's that. If you're giving us this shiur, then you can't that shiur. That shiur, you get this shiur. So I was thinking to myself, what's the machlokes? It could be the machlokes like this. If you learn turmus is a possibility. And therefore, Chacham gave you the shiur. So they also gave you a gris. They gave you twormus because of the pishpeish, says the Sederi Torah, so let's go and give you a kinah for the gris, the gris for the kinah. Comes the Chavos Daas, says, wait a minute, it's a real kliyah. What do you mean? We really think that maybe it comes from a pishpeish. So what, you really think that this comes from pishpeish, and then the part that's extra, that comes from a kinah? You know, you don't believe in any of the, what do we call that, of probability. There's such a case like this. That's an emesa tliyah. Aturmus is a shiur. So we said that there's a tliyah. It has to be clear that it could have been from aturmus, right? Comes the Sederi Torah and he asks, so let's give you a little bit extra now. Forget about the pishpeish for the machlokes. ... hagris. ... turmus v'ad kigris. Haturmus mishum hapishpeish, vhazeh hagris mishum hamachlokes. Says Sederi Torah, says, ... Look it up. Sederi Torah. ... he says, good, we're gonna give you, we'll give you an extra. Comes the Chavos Daas, says, wait a minute, that says aturmus. If you want to give me extras, give me extras.

What's the pshat? Pshat is gevaldig. If you learn shiurim, it's eina chanami. So unless you learn that once they gave you this shiur, they didn't give you this shiur. Could be. But I can hear that it's possible to give the two shiurim. It's possible, though. But if you learn it's teliyah, tell me it makes sense to say that you have dam, one dam, you have one kesem. This part will give you for the macholis, and this part will give you for the kinah. So what happened? There was a shidduch between a kinah and a macholis. There was between a pishpesh and a macholis. What happened? They were dancing together and you killed them both. But what happened? If you need a real teliyah, it's a pele. Could you put the two shiurim together? Masha'enkein, if you learn that you don't need a real teliyah, but it's shiurim, so you could, you could say, you could. You come and say, Chacham gave you one of the shiurim. You could say, not that way also, סמוך. That would be the pshat in the Seder Taharah. Taharah is saying, we'll give you two shiurim. Masha'enkein, Chacham's daas is saying that we won't give you the two shiurim. Okay. If you take a look, it says like this: או הריחה ריח. ומריחת ריח, the tolah. The tolah. So what's pshat? Macholis, I guess, has no reiach. Macholis has no reiach. What, it's so small, it's so minute. I guess the pishpesh, it's tight. I want to say gevaldig. Ready? Macholis is not a real teliyah, so it's not about a reicha reichai. It's a shiur. Mashenkin, where it's a real kliya, so you don't need the shiur. Where it's a real kliya, hericha reicha. If you have other ra'ayos, it's also good. Where the machlokes, pshat is, you know that, because by machlokes you don't even need that the ish should taka touch the machlokes. So therefore you can't tell me reicha reicha, because we don't even care yet int. Sheig, by pishpish, that it's about the taka had to. It's taka about a real kliya. So he's saying, v'al gavot, so reicha reicha is also good. So what's the chiddush? What's the chiddush? So it could be you could say like this: Im harga pishpish, v'lo yericha reicha. So then there should be a raya that it's not efshar, because if you smell it and you don't smell that it's pishpish. You killed it, you have it on your clothing, you're smelling it, it doesn't smell, right? So maybe that itself is a raya that it's not pishpish. You're smelling the blood and you don't smell it. You're smelling the blood and you don't smell it. You're smelling the blood and you don't smell it. Well, I'll give you another example. What happens im harga, you killed, and the pishpish disappears. You don't know what happened to it. She killed, so which means is she thinks that something was here, like a safek. What's harga? Harga is vadai. I'm saying, v'al gavot, you hear the word of hericha reicha. Hericha reicha is because it's a real kliya. So lo yitzuyer harga v'lo yericha reicha, taka not that way. So this is what we were discussing in the beginning. Maybe you need both taka. You need pishpish or hericha reicha, both. Or one without the other is also good. But if it's a real kliyah, so... that's what I'm saying. If it's not a real kliyah, so you can have one of the two. But if it's a real kliyah, so I would say you don't have both. What do you mean? You're smelling, you don't smell the kinah. Or what happens if it's hargah, but you don't know what happened to it? Meaning it's like a safek hargah. You think he killed it. So it depends. If it's a real kliyah, so you would need a vadai maybe. Where is it? What happened to it? You would have to know for sure that you killed it. But if the pshat is that it's only a possibility, and melech chacham gave you a shiur, so once the possibility was there, it should be good. I don't know if the poskim talk about this. I want to know two questions: do poskim talk about, do you need vadai hargah? What happens if she's meshayer, she thinks and you don't know for sure? And the second shaylah is, what happens if it was hargah and she looks and she smells, doesn't smell like from a kinah? Will it be in such a case? Maybe be mutar. Depends on how you learn the safek of... Okay, I want to do chesed. Okay, but I guess we'll do chesed different. Okay.