Hilchos Niddah: White Mareh, the Terumas HaDeshen’s Chumra, and Changes After Bathing

Transcript

The eitz is not. In siman kuf pei ches, yesterday we spoke about mara adoyn, mara shachor, which is like adoyn. Today I want to talk about mara lavan. V'ein tahor ela mara lavan. The only thing that's tahor is mara lavan, white. V'chein, v'ein tahor ela mara lavan. The only thing that's tahor is mara lavan, white. The Rama says, hagah, v'chein ikar. V'chein ikar. This is the right halacha. So when the Mechaber paskens mara lavan is tahor, the Rama has to go out of his way and say he's not wrong, he's right. It's pashut, lavan. What's the chiddush? No, it's going... because it says clearly, u'v'loiki yesh machmirin, ta'amim yesh boi smichas v'lav. The lavan, if it has smichus, this is not good. Going back, lavan is tahor, v'chein ikar. That lavan is tahor. Well, you didn't learn that way, the Rama? If it's what? It's thick. Not only lavan, either one of them only becomes a question according to man d'amar who holds that if it's samich like... Right, but I'm saying, v'chein ikar means lavan. He's going back on the Mechaber. The Mechaber says ela mara lavan. The Rama says v'chein ikar, d'lo ki yesh machmirin, because there's a tzad that those are machmir, v'yesh boi smichas v'lav, which is the trumas hadeshen. In any case, it's a thick. It has a certain PC part to it. So then, according to the Trumas Hadeshen, lavan is no good. Trumas Hadeshen, siman reish mem. The Shach also goes out of his way to say that yes, this is the way it is. Don't question it. There's nothing to talk about. Yeah. V'afilu eino lavan legamrei, ela kemareh beged lavan shenafal alav avak, shehuka lebeinu nisoi, tahorah, like a Trumas Hadeshen. V'chol mi sheshamati v'raisi nohagin l'hatil lhedya bli shum gimgum klal. Obviously, this was a big uproar, because you see that the Rama had to go out of his way and say, Mechanek. And also you see that the Shach has to go out of his way and say, Whoever I heard from, bli gimgum, there's nothing what to talk about. Why the strong language? Why is it that everybody has to make it a point to knock down this Trumas Hadeshen? And the reason, of course, is because there's a Bach. The Bach says that the Trumas Hadeshen is right. We'll soon see that the Taz quotes the Bach. It's his father-in-law. And even though he was probably supported by his father-in-law, he had no qualms to openly disagree with him and say that there's nothing what to talk about and that he's wrong. Let's see the Taz inside. Okay. U'dvarav tmuim — no, not this one, here. V'kol shekein, here. Halavan she'eino noitel klal, u'modicha mikasav shematza b'mikzavim b'sheim Marim Margolios sheyatza mitachas lavan, kitzur, you're not allowed to be mekabel a smichas lavan if it was after a shower. Says the Taz that this is a mistake. Says the Taz that this is a mistake. He says, Ela davar ze chumra yeseirah hu. See the Taz? Ela davar ze — let me show it to you — ela davar ze chumra yeseirah. This is a tremendous chumra. Yeah, oid hintzi, it's right over here. He brings the Bach, that the Bach brings down that you should be machmir, and he says, Ela davar ze chumra yeseirah hu. It's a tremendous chumra, chumra yeseirah. V'hamachmir yachmir l'atzmo v'lo yoreh kein l'acheirim. He should not pasken this to other people, which means this: keep it to yourself. Don't, don't, don't, don't be mefaresem. Don't pasken like this. Hamachmir yachmir l'atzmo. Okay. Now what's the—

Case of the Trumas Hadeshen. So I want you to know that the case of the Trumas Hadeshen is not merchatz. That's the Bach, b'shem Ramagolis, right? So even though I'm trying to tell you that the reason why everybody goes out of his way to knock the Trumas Hadeshen is because they were afraid of the Bach, who made it norm halachic parameters. He brought it back into the, that it's part of the normal halachic literature to be accepted. But the truth is, the story of the Bach is not the story of the Trumas Hadeshen. You see, I want to be clear. It's very important that clarity take over confusion, because once there's clarity, then things become barur and halachos become not metushtash. There's a lot of mistakes that people make based on the fact that they don't clearly comprehend the literature. What do I mean? The Trumas Hadeshen, the Trumas Hadeshen is not talking about the story of the Bach. It's not the same situation. What the Bach is talking about is a merchatz. That's what he's talking about. What the Trumas Hadeshen is talking about, what the Trumas Hadeshen is talking about, is lavan, lavan with a smichus. Now, I want to be me'oirer to you a nekudah. What's the nekudah I want to be me'oirer to you? That the story of the Trumas Hadeshen, right, you understand that the Bach is not the same story. The Bach is washing himself. It's a whole different sugya. It's a whole different story. I'm going to eventually explain to you that the Bach is based on the Trumas HaDeshen. I have proofs to this, Baruch HaChama, that the Bach is based, based on the Trumas HaDeshen. Yilan, the Bach is, Yilan, the Bach is based on the Trumas HaDeshen. But the Bach is not exact. You understand? Trumas HaDeshen talks about a white that has a dense, dense to it. Bach is talking about a shatnez. He doesn't mention one word Trumas HaDeshen. He mentions Ramagolius. Who said? You'll soon see who said. You'll soon see. So what I'm trying to say is that the implication and the feeling that I get is that the reason why everybody is out to attack the Trumas HaDeshen mefurash is because the Bach accepted it. You understand? The Bach accepted. Even though technically the Bach is talking about one thing and the Trumas HaDeshen is talking another, about two separate things, right? One is talking about a white and one is talking about after a shower. When we understand well the Trumas HaDeshen, we'll see that the Bach is actually based on the Trumas HaDeshen. Now let me begin by pointing out that the Trumas HaDeshen didn't say white. He said white with a smichus, with a heaviness. And that's why he says, So plain white is no good, right? But white with a smichus, with a tangible, with a denseness, that's different. White, the Bach—I'm sorry—white that the Trumas HaDeshen assered. Why? What's the reason? Now this is not going to be so clear in the pasuk. You see, this you have to go back to the Trumas Hadeshen to see inside. And I believe that, like I said, the confusion is based on not reading the Trumas Hadeshen. So there's a misunderstanding on the Trumas Hadeshen, and therefore it becomes a whole complicated issue. What is the Trumas Hadeshen? The Trumas Hadeshen writes clearly, and it has more to do with the fact that people will make a mistake, because there's a piece there, but it's whiteish. Maybe they're not realizing, they don't understand, they can't, we're not bekiim today. So therefore, if it's clean white, fine. If it's not clean white, no. That's actually what the Trumas Hadeshen... Go ahead, you want to read it? Read it inside. Read the lashon of the Trumas Hadeshen. Clear white is clear. There's no reason for mistake. It's not to become piecey things, see well, what's underneath it. This, we live in a time that people... We need it clearly because people make a mistake. You know who these people are? Great people, not small people. Big people.

Maybe I'll tell you the names. Maybe I won't tell you the names. Maybe. I have to think about it. I have to think about it. ... mipnei hata'uyos. ... Af al gav d'loy beru, mipnei hata'uyos. ... Mipnei, mipnei, mipnei, underline the word, mipnei hata'uyos. Because there are people who make mistakes, okay? So the whole issue of why—it's not a real issue. Technically, it's mashma, it's all about we not really knowing how to tell colors today. We're colorblind, we're—a metzias is blind, we don't know the metzias today, and therefore, mipnei hata'uyos. You will find the literature of great poskim, and not just poskim, the poskim that we are someich on for Hilchos Niddah. That's how far it goes up, who are going to explain the Trumas Hadeshen differently, even though his words aren't that. Should I just throw out one name? If you look at Rav Nissim Karelitz, he comes up with this part. He says that pshat in the Trumas Hadeshen is not because people make mistakes. It's because if it has p.c., we're afraid that it was once red, and from red it turned white. That's the Bach in Orach Chaim. It's not the Trumas Hadeshen. So what he did was, he borrowed the Bach and he stuck the Bach directly into the Trumas Hadeshen. Remember I started telling you that it's very possible that the Bach is based on the Trumas HaDeshen. Remember such a thing? Now we're starting to see, wait a minute, maybe the Bach is the Trumas HaDeshen. It's the same thing. I understand? It goes without saying. It's the same yesod. It's the same concept. Fact is that red turns white. Red might turn white. Red might turn white. Yes, could be. I like that. We can talk about that. Now let me just tell you what I did. When I read the Trumas HaDeshen, and I read the Mekor, I got very upset. I said, I don't understand. This, I mean, why are you making up a pshat and he says something completely different? He says something completely different. Did my homework. Did my homework, and I searched. Maran Rutenberg—he's a good man, he was from the gedolei rishonim, the big rishonim. Maran Rutenberg writes clearly that there's two reasons to asser white with a smichus. One of them is that it might turn, it might have turned from red to white. Sounds familiar? That's how Rav Moshe Karelitz is learning up the Trumas HaDeshen. Now I don't know if he's learning it in the Trumas HaDeshen; he just explains that the reason to asser whites with smichus is it might have been red turned white. And the second thing is because there's something called kimeimei basar tzli. The Gemara talks about the waters of meat that was roasted, and we don't know what that is. We think it's white. It's very possible it might be white. Leila says the Maram. Does anybody quote on the bottom the Maram Ruttenberg? You saw on the bottom? What? Oh, the Geshuni brings the Maram Ruttenberg. It's the Maram Ruttenberg. Go ahead, bring the Geshuni. Bring it, bring it, bring it. Where, where? I don't know if they have Geshuni. Ooh, they have it. Toulouse, Prague. It says it. That's the Maram Ruttenberg. Toulouse, Prague, siman ayin ches. It's right here. Hashem ... ha-nimchak, v'lo haya nikar, but it's teshuvas Maharam Prague. He doesn't say what it is. Ayin. Ayin b'teshuvos, but it doesn't say the name of the teshuva. By you it doesn't. See, the new Shulchan Aruch, they're smart. They put in the work. I said, what do you mean? Go look it up. They'll find it. They didn't find it because I have it on the computer. It's the Maram Ruttenberg. You know how I cheat? How do I? I know every Maram Ruttenberg. I have a computer in my house also. It's called a Sefer Torah ... That's my computer. I have a computer called Sefer Torah ... He tells me that's the Maram Ruttenberg, siman ayin ches. Baruch Hashem, Rabbi bought all the teshuva sefarim in the world. It makes me happy. It brings me great, great happiness. So what happened was, here they fixed it, but in the old ones they didn't even say the name, they didn't know who it was. You saw? So what are the two reasons? Go ahead, read.

They said it's not true. We don't pasken like that, but at least we're finding now what's wrong. What's wrong with these whites? Sir, sir, sir, sir. It's very clear. I'm not saying anything that's not clear, okay? So so far it's clear, it's clear. Beautiful, right? You want me to repeat it? You want me to repeat this? Okay, I'll repeat it. Listen carefully. I began by showing you that something which you would have taken as a davar pashut, white. Of course white is good. You see that the Mechaber goes out of his way to say that it's good. The Ramo goes out of his way to say v'chein ikar and not like the machmirim. And we find that the Shach goes out of his way to say that you should know, any gadol I ever asked, what are you so nervous about? Well, it's machaber and Ramo. They both said the same thing. And the answer is because lurking, lurking in the background is the Bach. You don't just make the Bach into a katan kanyan — Yiddish, we call it a katan kanyan — into a small little child. You know, you gotta deal with the Bach, right? No, that's the Taz. I'm saying, bichlal the Shach. Shach was the son-in-law of the Taz. You know that. He was his grandfather. Kiveiger — excuse me, Kiveiger was the son-in-law of the Taz. Forgive me. Kiveiger was the son-in-law of the Taz. That I know also. You don't know that Rav Kiveiger is the son-in-law of the Taz? That's the lineage. The Bach, the Taz, Rav Kiveiger, the Chasam Sofer. Don't know this? Okay. Now, so listen carefully. Ready? Listen good, listen carefully. Shh. Kitzer, what's the pshat in this Bach? So this Bach, be'etzem is not really the Trumas HaDeshen, because the Trumas HaDeshen is not talking about showers. The Trumas HaDeshen is talking about what? Regular whites. Masha'en kein, the Bach is talking about showers. But I'm going to show you that it's possible there's a connection between the two, that one is actually based on the other. Why? Because even in this Trumas HaDeshen, what's the reason for the Trumas HaDeshen? What's the cheshbon? So pashut, if you read the words, it says because people make mistakes on white, so if it's not clear white, don't be matir. Don't forget, when it has a smichus, it's a little bit more darker, it's a little blacker, it's not clear white, and people make mistakes. Okay. It's funny a little bit, you know what I mean? People make mistakes between white and red, you know, so then there's no moirai hora today, so every moirai hora is blind like a bat. That's what you're telling me, basically, right? Okay. If you're afraid that people make mistakes between white and red, so I don't know what to tell you. How are they going to make mistakes? They're going to be dameh. I don't know. That's what he says. He says, מה אעשה? People make mistakes, and therefore we asser everything. That's what he says. So therefore many come along and say it can't mean that. What does it mean? It means that it got clean. The mistake is that it was once red and it turned white. So I'm showing you that that's a very big chiddush. Who says? I mean, that's not what it says. So I'm showing you that the Meram Rutenberg already learned that that's the reason for white. The reason for white is... That it might have went from red to white. And the second reason is because even white might be a problem. White might be one of the colors of tzli and meimei tzli. It's one of the cases. Okay. The chidah asks a haflafah kasha, haflafah, mamash a haflafah kasha. And the reason why I say Chidah is because I know you like names, but you don't need the Chidah; it's pashut shayla. Everybody should be asking this kasha. Didn't we pasken, and didn't we talk about that if, let's say, a mareh comes out one color, and by the time it gets to the rav, and the rav sees it, it's already what? It's a different color. So what do we follow? We follow what the rav sees, right? So what's the difference how it came out? Who cares? What kind of teretz could you be saying, Marav? What are you saying? It's white now. When the rav saw it, it's white. Who cares what it turned? We're going to learn this. We're going to learn this, that if something was one color, and by the time you saw it, it's a different color, we go after re'as chacham. This is a Gemara in Niddah. You know that. It's a mefurash Gemara. The Gemara says that a chacham never has to come and—

Worry that maybe when I saw it, it was yavesh, but if it would have been when it came out, it was lach, in a different color. This is Gemara, first Gemara, Gemara daf chaf, Maseches Niddah, and that's how we pasken. Don't worry about when it was lach and yavesh. Worry about what you see in front of you. So how could we even discuss that it was once red and turned? Who cares? Who cares? Unbelievable question. I want to ta'ina yesod. I want to ta'ina yesod. Now the truth is, I'm making it sound like it's mine. It's not exactly mine. You know why it's not mine? Because the truth is, if you learn the literature, it's there. It's between the lines. You just got to pick up on it. If you do enough reading of the poskim, you'll see that it's there. The fact that there's a smichus changes everything, because the truth is it's white, and white is good. But white with a smichus is no good. You know why? Because the fact that there's a smichus there, that itself is a raya that there was something going on over here. The smichus and the av are signs, signs to give us a chashash that there's something there. It's kaved, I don't know, it's a discharge. When it's white, it's regular lachluch. Now you have to see lachluch is normal by women. That's a normal thing. A discharge and a lachluch is two different things. You know, the poskim talk about there's a zeya, it's sweaty, it's wet. Okay, that's normal. But there's a chiluk between a discharge and a wet. Av with a smichus means there was already a discharge. Discharge means you have to start worrying about something. I hold this is an emesdike. I just told you what yesoid. When there's smichus and av, that means that it wasn't as simple as just that it's wet. It doesn't work that way. Mimeila, that's a good enough reason to be choshesh according to the Maharam miRutenberg that it was once red. And a chinami, if you have no reason, let's say you see in front of you a red, a white, don't be choshesh when it was lach, it was red. You don't have to be choshesh for that. Where there's taka a reason to be choshesh that it was once red, there's a raglayim ladavar that it was once red because it was a discharge of an av and a smichus, mimeila it's a different halacha. What are you trying to refute? I mean, you see, because white, not that way. White, not that way. White with a smichus, ah, the Trumas HaDeshen has an issue. What do you mean? It's white. Yeah, but the answer is smichus is something. There's something there when there's a smichus. When it's av, it's a discharge, something there. Is that called excretions or it's more than excretions? It's discharge. It's a discharge from the womb. When you have a piece, it's a discharge from the womb. So it could be a maritor from the womb, but it's a discharge. You have to wait for it to be dry? That's not what I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to say is whenever you have a marah, you don't have to worry what it once was. But the smichus and the av is what the Trumas HaDeshen is. Smichus and av is a problem. Yesh machmirim on a smichus and an av. When it's a thick marah, when it's a piecey. I don't understand how you should pasken. I didn't tell you. We don't pasken like this. I'm just first explain what it is. If you brought you same smichus, the white, we pasken not like the Trumas HaDeshen. But Rama says clearly, asur. Asur. Right away asur. You have a white with a smichus, according to the Trumas HaDeshen it's asur. So we're trying to understand, but why? What's the reason? And the answer is because it might have been once red. So what? We follow what's now, and the answer is not when you have a reason, a legitimate thing which tells me, you know something, it might be a problem. Yeah, but if it's read before announcement, we still say, okay, the red now is off, so it's not tahor. That's the cheshbon. We don't say that only when we have no reason to believe there was once red. Unless you have a reis, and there's a reis. But if you have a red, and then you bring the ruba comes another red and he paskens tahor, because that red obviously wasn't what he held. He held that it turned into another red, but there's no reason to think that it was once a red. Here we have a reason to believe that it was dam, that it was real, real, real, real dam, because the av and the semichus is a discharge. Okay. Now I'm going to show you why I'm saying this, how I know this, and how after I finish talking, you'll also know this and say the same thing. I'm going to prove it to you beyond a reasonable doubt that this is the real...

Not the Bach, not the Bach, but the Trumas HaDeshen, and then we'll see further, all right? I'd like to discuss now the Bach a little bit, okay? So the Bach brings, b'shem the Rima Goylis, that what? That there's an issue if you take a shower. Now, does the Bach himself pasken like this? Can we go to the Bach and see what he himself says? It's funny because everybody blames the Bach. The Bach himself doesn't—I mean, he himself doesn't pasken that way, but go ahead. He brings the Rima Goylis, the Bach, yeah. No, but he says further. Now there's no further. Continue. Okay. Taz comes along and says it's tamei. Okay, now I want to read this Bach very well inside, okay? I want to see the lashon of the Bach. You saw the Bach? Okay, I suggest you to see, because we're going to learn now every word, to be oimed—no, really, every word. We're going to stay on every single word. Let me see what you want to show. Now this is yellow. What are you talking about? This? This is not—nothing. This is not what you call... This is not semichus. It's not this. This is not semichus. But this is not white. This is zahav. This is kishayvu. This is the case of kishayvu. This is not even white. This is the story of shayva. This is the story. This is gold. This is gold, yellow. It's something else. Huh? This is something else. This is closer to yellow. Okay, now, I want to show you, I want to show you the lashon of zibach, the lashon of the bach. Okay, let's begin. You ready? Rafi! Let's go. We have work to do. Start reading the lashon of the bach from the Rima goylis. Go ahead. Oh, he was mekabel from who? From Isha Chachama. Who is this Isha Chachama? What is she, the rebbetzin of what, of Yerushalayim? Who is this Isha Chachama? Do you know who attacks this? R' Moshe. R' Moshe in the teshuvos, in siman Yoreh Deah, chelek beis, siman ayin, says, you know why we don't really care about what this bach, this is not nogea lahalacha? Because it's not a Gemara, it's not Rishonim, it's Isha Chachama, so what? You hear what R' Moshe writes? And you know what he does, R' Moshe? He makes a joke out of it. He says the Gemara says— you think I'm kidding you? The Gemara says in Yevamos, daf samech-vav amud aleph, you know what women are good for? Pelach. They're very good chachamim, they have chochmah in sewing. He says that's their chochmah. What, an Isha Chachama in halacha? Says R' Moshe, it's not— this bach is not l'maaseh. There's nothing l'maaseh. What is he quoting an Isha Chachama? It's not a believable thing. R' Moshe— it's mamash, R' Moshe writes in the teshuvos. I don't understand. What kind of an ...? He says, Eh, it's meila bachrones, so now what? Now, I do want to tell you that I got very nervous when I saw that. You know why? I don't know, but Rav ... quoting over an ... so they're not mesayres, so she said it, so now what? Huh? Good. Okay, so let me just—maybe you should. So let me just tell you like this. Let me tell you that there's a very famous teshuvas HaRashba, chelek aleph, siman tes, divrei ha-maskil uda. And he writes clearly, don't be doicheh the kabbalah that comes from the ... in Klal Yisrael. That's right. And he says that the ... in Klal Yisrael, they're plenty fit, plenty fit, to give us a mesorah. Don't forget, we were redeemed from Egypt because of these ... that tzaddikim v'chachamim. So it's very interesting to me how Rav Moshe just, you know, knocked them away. I don't know, he just made them into old seniles, alte babchkes. But the truth is, right, this is teshuvas Yoreh Deah beis, siman ayin. Yoreh Deah beis, siman ayin. What, you talking about the Rashba's teshuva? The Rashba's teshuva, chelek aleph, siman tes. Okay, let's look it up.

This. Stam talks about it. They're all dying to see this because this is good stuff. Good stuff, you hear? Could you imagine? I heard from my bubba. So what? Says the ... says that you heard from your bubba. It's a big thing what you heard from your bubba. Give it to me, give it to me. No, give it to me, no. Very nervous. Yeah. Is it possible that they changed the, whatchamacallit? Here it is, one second. You have it? Bring it to me. I thought it was Aleph test. We're gonna find it. We're gonna find it. It's here somewhere. We're gonna find it. It's very possible that, what's you call it, it's possible that this is the new one. No, not magiah. It could be it's different. It's just a different ois. Okay, let's see further. Okay, I'm gonna find it. Okay, I'm gonna find it. Okay, we'll get to it. But akal panim, this is the Rashba, the famous Rashba. But the Rashba says, I don't want to look for the Moshe. It takes too much time. I'll have to show it. The Moshe says, so what? So the chachmei, the nashim, the women, who cares what the women said? Since when do the women dictate to us? Yeah, but they know these matters. Again, so what should I do? I should tell you that Moshe didn't say it? What do you want me to tell you? I'm telling you the whole thing is a chiddush. The Rashba says clearly. It's a famous Rashba. Where does he quote the Rashba from? She'al shevus b'er Moshe, yeah. Here it is. It's a famous Rashba. It's the famous Rashba.

The Rashba says clearly. I'll find it for you. Here, here, it's also quoted in the Rashba, one of the most famous Rashbas. The Rashba says, when the women tell you, Halachah l'maaseh, don't knock it off. You hear? Don't knock it off. So al kol panim, let's hear again. Let's take apart every word. We take apart every word in the Bach. Says the Bach that the chachmei ha-nashim said—what did they say? Let's hear. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Look inside. What did they say? Oh, wait a second, wait a second. You just said a very strong word, shenimtza kesem. Only a kesem? Even a kesem? Kesem. Oh, so let me explain the difference. There's such a thing called a re'iyah. A re'iyah means she sees a flow. Flow is the oraisa. A kesem usually is a derabbanan. It's a stain. Stain's only derabbanan. So the question is, did the Bach say it even on a re'iyah? Also a kesem, or only a re'iyah? I don't know. It's interesting lashon. You medaik this? You medaik this? What? What? What? It's a re'iyah. It's mashma that it talks about a re'iyah. It's interesting. Sheyatzu meha— but you medaik this word kesem. Okay, good, I'm happy. Mashma the Bach that it's even on a kesem, kesem derabbanan. A very big problem. R' Moshe argues with this. We'll soon see. Go ahead. Okay, what's that? What's that? So let's say it's a kesem, right? Now there's a very big problem. Why? What's the problem? Let's say it's a kesem. Kesem is a derabbanan. L'maaseh, you don't know. You don't for sure that it was once what? Red. It's a safek, so why don't we say safek d'Rabbanan l'kula? Big problem, very big problem. If you learn that the bach is talking about a regular re'iyah, so re'iyah is a de'oraisa, so you could come and say safek de'oraisa l'chumra. But if you come out a kesem, a kesem is only a derabbanan, it's only issur derabbanan, you don't know that it turned white. You don't know. I'm saying that it turned white after it was once red. Let's say safek d'Rabbanan l'kula. So bishleima, you learn the pshat metrumas hadeshen, that has nothing to do with turning white. Bifnei atzmo, so that's good, you can make a gezeirah bifnei atzmo. But the bach is definitely not bifnei atzmo. The bach is definitely worried about that the water changed the color, changed the colors. Kashya, it's only derabbanan. It's only derabbanan, only derabbanan. There's nothing else to be tahor. Yeah, but you don't know that it was white. I mean, white could be white also. White? I see white cream on my shirt. What did it come from? Because it's a white discharge. Now that I took a bath and I know the metzius in science, it's true that... Okay, so let me ask you a question. Does it say anywhere that we know for sure that it turned white? Darkei shel dam lislaben, but it's not darke that every time it's lavan it's dam. It's the other way around, that every time it's dam, every time it's red, it's going to turn white. But every time it's white, you know for sure it was once red. How do you know it's once red? After she took a shower, poom, she sees dam. You like his answers? I don't like his answers. You don't know what's flying? How far back are you? I was with the bach, the Rashba and Rosh and... Okay, the bach says like this: the bach brings down a case, a woman took a shower, and she sees this white discharge. What's the halacha, Ilan, with the white discharge? Bach. User, because it's dam. The whole... Where is he quoting it from? He's quoting it from the nashim chachamim, the wise women. Who are these wise women? Whether it was a council of wise women, it's coming from Devorah and Aviah. Who's it coming from? And the answer is the babushkas in Europe. I don't know, the grandmothers of Europe. So Ramoisha writes that that's the reason we don't pay attention to this bach, because who's going to listen to a babushka? And he says, Ramoisha, you know, in humor, Ramoisha in humor says, the Gemara says clearly that a woman's knowledge is in sewing. That's what they're good for. So if they pasken shailas about sewing, then you can trust them. If they pasken Hilchos Niddah, you can't pay attention. All right. So I pointed out, but I don't get it. I mean, Ramoisha zicher knew that the Rashba held that when women talk, you got to pay attention. Okay, next point. Kesem. So I'm asking you, what do you mean, kesem? What happens? A kesem is a derabbanan. Does he mean re'ah? Does he mean kesem? Kesem is a very big chiddush. Why? Because the whole reason we're worried is maybe it was...

Once white and it turned red—I'm sorry—once red and it turned white, so it's a maybe. And if it's a kesem, since derabbanan, safek derabbanan lekula, big problem, big problem. Now, let's go one step further. I believe that when could you come and say safek derabbanan lekula when there's no re'iyah? But if you learn that the smichus and the av is a re'iyah, so like we spoke, is that what you wanted to say? Is that more or less what you— you said a little different. I don't like that. I don't like it. See, but I held that the bach is based on the Trumas HaDeshen. I know this for sure, that the bach is based on this Trumas HaDeshen. You'll soon see why. You'll soon see. The bach is actually based on the Trumas HaDeshen, which means is the yesod of re'iyah, smichus; therefore we don't say safek derabbanan. We're not going to say safek derabbanan lekula because there's a smichus and an av. Had there just been a white color, so there's no reason to be choshesh that it was once red. That's not ridiculous. And that's the pshat: if a gerov comes and he sees a white, he doesn't have to be afraid that yesterday it was red. But since there's a smichus and an av, there's a thick—the smichus and the av is the killer here. That's the Trumas HaDeshen's yesod. Trumas HaDeshen, later foundation, that when there's a smichus and an av, it's not a regular white. Based on this, the Bach comes and says, so then we have a problem, because there's a smichas an anav, and there was a shower, so we were in trouble. Okay? Good. Now, let me show you another proof. All right? How does the Taz knock his father? What's his raya? He brings a very strong raya. That's one thing he says. Well, that's not as strong; he has a better raya. He brings a very nice raya, okay? You tell me, what's the raya? The raya is because the Gemara says that by black, we have to be afraid that it was once red and turned black. Why did the Gemara say the same thing by white, which is even a bigger chiddush? Let me ask you a very simple question. The raya of the Taz is a very big chiddush. Mamash a chiddush. You know why? The case of black happens by itself. The case of black, when the Gemara says black, every black, no matter what, was once red that turned black. In other words, the Gemara does not say that if you put mustard on a... What is he רוצה, this Taz? What are you talking about? I was reading and reading. I always talk about... I don't understand the Taz. Tremendous. Okay, so you know what? That's your whole kasha when the Gemara says it about shachar. Like what he's saying, I don't like it. He gets me nervous. He's one of my students that get me nervous, because whenever I say, he says the opposite, whatever I say. Now, the only difference is, the only difference is I say good and he says the opposite, bad. It's a very big problem. You understand what I'm saying? Taz comes along and proves that white, because the Gemara should have said that chiddush. It's a different story. The Gemara is talking about every black. No matter what, a black turns white. It was red that turned black. But here you have to do something according to the Bach. Ah! Unless you learn that the Bach is based on the Trumas HaDeshen. What is it? He's mocking not the Bach. He's not the whole Trumas HaDeshen, he's not. When he comes along, he's saying the Bach says a chiddush according to this, so I'm telling you I'm not mocking the Bach. What's he—he's telling you the Bach's case, not the Gemara. Why would the Bach's case be—he said, you know, he said it beautiful. You have to tell me if you put mustard on or if you wash it off, it's not going to be there. You have to tell me that. You have to tell me that if I took something and I wash it off, it's white now, so I have to worry about it. You're right, it's also a story, but it's not the same case as shachar. But if you learn that it's the Trumas HaDeshen, the Bach is actually the same story as the Trumas HaDeshen. He's saying, gevaldig gevald, we're always afraid of change. The Trumas HaDeshen means the mechaber, we're afraid of change.

So then he's saying a very, very strong yesod. Can we ...? I know it's been off for the past hour. ... Change. So then he's asking good. He's coming along ... Why would the Gemara say? Why would the Gemara have talked about black tur? Why say a bigger chiddush, a white tur? So his attack is not the shower, because then what are you attacking? What do you want the Gemara to talk about, the shower? The Gemara says something else. The Gemara says something happens by itself. Teretz is the shower is another form of trumas hadeshen. What? So why bring the case of the shower? Maybe, why can't we say it's not normal to shower for three hours? That's why the Gemara never mentioned it. I'm going to talk about it. I'm not finished with it. I just thought, sir, sir, sir, I just thought. I'm not even holding there, because we're going to take a part this bach, and we're going to see him about three hours. We have to talk about it. Three-hour shower, he wants. It's a case of a three-hour shower. Who takes an hour shower for three hours? Okay, now. Now. So meila, we have a pshat now. You hear the pshat, that if you learn, you hear meishaleh, if you learn that the bach is actually the trumas hadeshen. So he's asking a gevaldige kasha: ilan, ilan. He's asking a gevaldige kasha. So why attack the bach? So why attack the bach? Go straight to the trumas hadeshen. Go straight to the trumas hadeshen and the teretz. He held that for no reason to be choshesh, you don't have to worry about it. Notice the smichus is not the raglayim l'davar. Rafi said the shower is the raglayim l'davar. But the yesod is the same. The fact that there's a smichus, that's not the raglayim l'davar. That's the trumas hadeshen. The Bach's chiddush is that we can have a different type of raglayim l'davar, a point that she went into the shower. So Rafi's right. Rafi's right in the Bach that the taiches, that the smichus shtickel that I said in the Trumas Hadeshen is the raglayim l'davar of the Bach. Bach says, she went in and there's a shower and it makes sense, and there, let's stop being choshesh. Let's come and not say that safek d'rabbanan l'kula. Ah, comes along the Bach, the Taz, and he says, I don't like this, because if you hold of changes, the Gemara should have talked about changes. The way we explained—what's wrong? What's wrong? Ah, just keep telling that after the shower, these two, three hours, the blood become white. That's become— Is the case that— Can I tell you that Rav Moshe writes clearly that it actually became white inside the mikvah? That's— no, no, it's not a— it's a machlokes haposkim. We're going to talk about it. The shower. The shower. She gets out of the shower, she looks, whatever. Right. Even though it passed three hours after the shower, still we think this is a— Up to three hours. Up to three hours, maybe he's right. It's a very good svara. Maybe, maybe. That's what this lady was telling him, that she's a chamah. Yeah. No, she came to clean the shower. That's the chumrah. She saw it. Let's work on this. Can we go further? Let's go further. Now. Rav, are you with me? Because otherwise I come... I spent hours coming for nothing. Are you listening to me? Yeah, you with me? No, not so well? Yeah, it's a beautiful... I taught you the Taz, I taught you the Bach. I'm teaching you the Trumas HaDeshen. I'm working with you. Okay, now, notice the next word, the Bach. And in case she did—what did she do? What's the word she did for so many hours? What was she doing there? No, you see the word rechitza, or—what's the— I want to know the exact word. Rochtzah ishah bechamin. Rochtzah ishah bechamin. You have such a Bach. Oh, the hi tmei. That's the Bach. That's the first part. According to the lady. Okay, now what does the Taz—how does the Taz quote him?

Go ahead, continue. Okay, so what's the first thing you quoted to me? Where's that from? That's Rav Zundel Katz. The second one is a David... Okay. Are they saying the same thing? Are they talking about the same story? Not exact. If you want to take things apart and be honest, they're not really talking about—I mean, again, they could be talking about the same thing, but the words are not the same words. One is talking about washing with hot water, and the other one is talking about a merchatz. Now, what would happen if it's not a merchatz, meaning a bath, it's a miklachas, a shower, standing, not soaking yourself in water? What happens if it's not six hours, three hours, or whatever he brings over there—the many hours that she's a primadonna, she's a Jewish Jap, she's sitting in the bath for three hours every day. I'm saying, what was the story? She's sitting for three hours. But is that the story that the first case? He just said, 'rachtzah b'chamin'—she washed herself with chamin. What do you say, Ilan? It's a different story, right? Wow, different story. Okay. How about—we have an interesting chiddush. I saw Rav Shevet Halevi brings down from a sefer called Levushei Mordechai, that the Levushei Mordechai says, you know what? If it's not a shower, if it's not a bath... If it's not hot water, then it's mutar. And if it's not three hours, meaning the shower is not three hours, that's what he wants to say. The shower is not three hours, therefore it's mutar. It's short. It's not hot water, then it's mutar. Shebralevi, he's medayek in the Bach. That's right. Right, because the Bach says you should be machmir. The Bach holds that you should be machmir not to take a shower. The Bach holds you should be machmir not to take a shower, right, that there's a minhag not to take a shower, right? So the question is, the question is, what do you mean? What are you referring to? So the answer is, for example, you make a woman not take a shower for seven days, her husband will run away. I don't mean run away from her, from touching her. He'll run away from the house, from the vicinity. And the neighbors will run away, and the children will run away, the whole family will run away. Okay? Okay. Now, b'kitzur, these are the yukim that the Levushei Mordechai makes. All right. May I ask you a very interesting question? Does anybody know what a chafif is? What is a chafifah? No, no. She washes herself. Shampoo. Shampoo of what? Takes a bath. Every woman takes a bath, right? She cleans herself. Chafifah. Does she make a bedikah after this chafifah? So what's he talking about? What are all these people talking about? I don't see. You're supposed to make a chafifah before you make a bedikah. You just told me that in case she cleans herself with hot water, it's a problem. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to tell you. I mean, you see clearly that the Bach never meant, never meant a little bit, right? Obviously, right? Because the halacha—now this is not my raya. Arsham brings this raya. Arsham says that this, you can't say that means literally if you took a shower there's no bedikah afterwards, because you see clearly that there's halacha of chafifah before you make a bedikah. That's not the answer of the Levush Mordechai. You know the Levush Mordechai? He asks this kasha: how could you come and say that you're not allowed to wash yourself before you make a bedikah because it might turn from red to white? You see there's halacha of chafifah; you're supposed to clean yourself before. Answers the Levush Mordechai, that's different because there's no choice, and it's a mitzvah, and it's אי אפשר באופן אחר. There's nothing else you can do, so we can't come and say you shouldn't do this. What? Huh?

I'm telling you, I said the minhag is not to do, but the kashya, how can it be? But the halacha of chafifah— What? Yeah, but that's not what he answers. No, he's saying a different svara. He's saying because the halacha is that you have to take a shower, so the halacha of not taking a shower, we're not going to be machmir on. Yeah, but if you're telling me that the problem is that the bedikah is not going to be a muchrach bedikah. No, maybe. Uh-huh. He's just going back to the minhagim. No, it's the minhag of the Bach. The minhag is only a minhag, so you're therefore b'makom mitzvah we're not machmir. Okay, okay. I mean, why couldn't he say different teretz? Just say that chafifah is a drop. I mean, what do you have to come and give this teretz? Okay, let me tell you what I'm trying to get at. I'll tell you what I'm trying to get at. Does the Bach hold that where it has to be that she has to clean herself, there's also a minhag not to do it? No. What I mean to say is like this: the minhag is not to bathe, right? The minhag is b'chalal not to bathe. Does he mean not to bathe, nekiyus bathing, or does he mean not to bathe luxury? What do we call that? Leisure, leisure bathing. Leisure bathing. And I'll tell you why I'm asking this. I want to know in halacha l'maaseh. Let's say swimming. Is there a problem for women according to the Bach to go swimming? Now, because the truth is, why am I saying this? Because the Taz himself says that you should be machmir. It's an interesting Taz, because tchoyretz a peleh. If you hold that, he's wrong, so harei rotzeh l'hachmir, yachmir l'atzmo. What do you mean, yachmir l'atzmo? What does that mean? You saw it, harei rotzeh l'hachmir. Oh, so either it means because the Bach said so, which is also chiddush. I mean, if you hold it's wrong, it's wrong. Tamuah, huh? I mean, you really can't. I mean, let me ask you a question the other way around. Does he mean that in case there's a smichas av it's no good, does he mean yachmir, or does he mean not to shout? What is he referring to? Pashut he's going back on that in case you found the bedikah which is not good. I mean, you don't be machmir. There's such a thing, be machmir when it's mutar? I don't know what he's talking about, huh? You can't be machmir. Yeah, because machmir l'atzmo, a guy himself knows his din and he wants to be machmir. Yeah, but you owe it to your wife. What do you mean? Okay, do me a favor. Look at the Shevet Halevi. He asks a kashya. What are you talking about? What kind of yachmir l'atzmo? What kind of business is this? Go ahead, look at the Shevet Halevi. And he says this svara because the Bach says. That's what he says. If you're a partner with somebody, could you start making chumras? Could you start saying, you know what, I want to be machmir? No, you got to do the letter of the law, because otherwise you're not fair to the other person. The wife? You mean both are maskim. Yachmir l'atzmo? Okay, he doesn't say that. That's not how the Shevet Halevi learns the pshat. No, not has to. If he wants, he could be. Why? Because l'maaseh the Bach said. In other words, even if we make the Bach into nothing, it's not completely nothing. Go ahead, read it, read it. I didn't make it up. Shibud isha. Ein taam l'chumra. If there's a reason for the chumra, fine. But if there's no reason for the chumra, yeah, go ahead. Oh, you don't want to be doiche because it's yotzei pi ha-baal. So they're saying a different answer. Maybe they're both maskim. Maybe they're both maskim, huh? According to the Shevet HaLevi, it comes out that you don't have to both be maskim. Only one of them can be maskim, huh? What? What? You learned what? That they're both maskim. The Shevet HaLevi is learning, no. Even the husband could say, you know what, I don't care that my wife wants. It's too bad on you. The bach says, so I'm allowed to be choshesh shitas ha-bach. So I want to know what happens if the wife wants to be machmir, shitas ha-bach. She wants to be machmir shitas ha-bach and not to take a shower. Huh? The what? Maybe the husband's makpid. Doesn't want to have a wife that smells. What kind of question? Huh? You're not? Still same room. What do you mean?

Okay, so write this, write this for a shaila: a Rafi Poskins that a wife could go around smelling for seven days. Only the French do that. You know why they made perfume? You know where perfume comes from? Because they used to not take showers. French Louis, what was his name? King Louis, King Louis the something, whatever, the King Louis. No, he was a French. Louis was afraid of showers. Since Louis was afraid of water, he was a mushugana. He was a real meshugana. He was afraid of water, so they made perfume. Itain has nothing to do with that. Itain that even after the shower, the French stink. That's where it comes from. There's such baalei aveirah. No, seriously. There's such baalei aveirah. No, be'emes. Could you imagine people that eat frogs, that eat worms, that eat trotzes, wheat grasshoppers? You do? I didn't know that. Don't worry about it. Grasshoppers is not the same thing as a sheretz. Sheretz, I don't know what you call it. Not the same thing. Not the same thing. You know that there's plenty people that eat roaches to save money. You know, that's a thing. You heard about it, right? No, but you heard about it, right? Yeah. When they go in the mountains, instead of hunting for deer, they figure it's easier to eat the roaches. All right, and there was a whole recipe book on how to cook that stuff. You know what the teretz is? You are what you eat. You are what you eat, and that's the bottom line. That's what it is. So I hold that the perfume... But it's an interesting thing, because the perfume doesn't work for them. That's the interesting thing. Okay, now, so b'kitzur, so the shaila is... A different shayla. You ready? What happens, according to the Bach—according to the Bach, you should be writing this stuff down, because this is big shailas that you're not going to read anywhere else. What happens, according to the Bach, the minhag is not to shower. What about going bathing? What's the chiluk? Okay, so, if it's soinen, if it's soinen, it's good. What happens—two things. What happens if it's hot? It's a hot pool. What's a hot pool? Now, I have a very big chiddush that I want to tell you. Why? What is the mechanics of the white turning—the red turning white? What is it? Is it that the water comes and cleans out the red? It's a weird thing, right? I never heard that. It has to do with—so R' Moshe speaks about it. It's a very interesting thing. R' Moshe writes a very interesting chiddush. R' Moshe writes like this. R' Moshe writes, R' Moshe, we have a whole halacha that the red might turn white, right? And we're worried about it. Asks R' Moshe, why is everybody so prone, so eager to attack the trumas hadeshen, when actually the trumas hadeshen has a raya? You know what his raya is? Because you see the same yesod by shachar. He uses the Taz the other way around. The Taz comes along and says, I'll prove it to you because the Gemara says shachar, not lavan. Asks R' Moshe, yeah, but you see the concept by shachar, so what are you making crazy for? You see it could happen. So trumas hadeshen is telling you that it happens. He didn't know science. He was crazy. What happened? What was it? Trumas hadeshen. Are they arguing with the Trumas Hadeshen b'metzius? That's what Moshe wants to know. Reb Moshe wants to know: are they arguing with the Trumas Hadeshen b'metzius? It's a very interesting teshuva. You should really do that teshuva in siman ayin. What happened? They came and said, you know, you, Trumas Hadeshen, said that—I even showed it to you mefurash the shiur before—that it's definitely red and it's white, and if you put white on it, remember this we spoke about by the black, that if you took the black and you turned it, you put water on it, it would definitely turn white. That's a metzius, right? What about this? This is also a metzius. This is a factual science, so this stam a guy, he dreamt of this. What happened to me? And if it's a factual science, what's the other man d'amar? What's the pshat? You're just not afraid? So that's what I spoke about. Maybe just not afraid. Moshe doesn't learn like that. Moshe says because by black it started off as red, and it comes out and it turns black. Mashenkein here, it comes out of the mekor as white. The cooking, the cooking, the heat, whatever it is, it turns it white. By mazah it's meyushev, the story chafifah zechanat migeya, because if you do chafifah, unless you're not in the water, which brings up the body temperature, there's nothing what to talk about, right? If you don't bring up the—

Body temperature, there's nothing what to talk about, right? So the chatifah is not a kashya anymore. And then I have a modeh gisa. Why? Because I'm clear: what happens if the water doesn't get there? She's wearing a bathing suit. She's wearing something that doesn't let the water go there. So it's not—if you learn like the pshat is it might turn white because of the water, so then you have to worry about it. But if the pshat is it has to do with the heat of the body, if it has to do with the heat of the body, then it would be even in what? Even in a pool, which bathing suit, the water doesn't get there, it's hot. And chafif would also make sense if she's three hours in the water. Huh? What if she has fever? I don't know. Maybe fever doesn't do it, I don't know. I don't know. It's a good question. I don't know. You see the Trumas Hadeshen doesn't speak about fever. I don't know. It's a good question. What happens? He's asking a good question. What would be—here's his question. You hear the—what's your first name again? Reb Avram is asking a good question. Here's his question: what would happen if she's in a sauna—sauna, what's it called again? Sauna. She's in a sauna where it's not mamash in the water, but it's hot, it's vapor. Should we worry according to the shitas of Trumas Hadeshen that white turned into black? According to this, rabosai, white turned—I'm sorry, red turned into white. So this is my shiur on the sugya of smichus and—have a nice day.