Hilchos Harchakos: A Moving Bench, Shared Travel, and What Constitutes Chibah

Transcript

So again, the Ramah, the asur leishev. It's again him, asur leishev, him. Ramah סעיף ו', him, asur leishev. Al safsol aruch, shemisnadedes ve'eino mechuberes l'kotel, k'she'ishto nidah, yesheves alav. So it's mashma that she's already sitting. She's already sitting, okay? And he wants to sit down, but that's not allowed, right? She's already sitting and he wants to sit down. What about the other way around? Doesn't say anything, doesn't say it over here. So the first shailah is: is it him only or her included? Till now, we've spoken many times him only and her not included. What about this halachah? Him only or her included, that she's not allowed to sit down when he's there, okay? Second shailah: what does the mechaber hold by this halachah? It's not clear, right? Because if he says lo yeishev b'mitah, and he doesn't bring the case of lo yeishev al safsol aruch, so chayav, he doesn't hold of it, chayav. Third shaila. Not a shaila, but an ara diuk, shemisnadedes v'eina mechuberes. Mashma that if it's misnadedes, but it's mechuberes, or it's mechuberes but not misnadedes, there's no problem. The whole problem is shemisnadedes v'eina mechuberes. L'kaisel, what about to the ground? Is kaisel dafka? What about something that's mechubar to the ground, to the karka? Chayris, lav dafka, but he says kaisel. It's interesting. He should have said mechuberes l'karka. That's the famous expression that's used when something's attached to the ground: say mechuberes l'karka. Unless he's saying a chiddush. It doesn't only have to be mechuberes l'karka; it could even be mechuberes l'kaisel. Mechuberes l'karka is pashut, even a case of mechuberes l'kaisel. So this is the reading, okay? Now let's read a little bit within the reading. Let's read deeper into the reading, okay? Does everybody see what it says? The first thing is it says that the Rama is saying something different than the Mechaber, so it's either adding or arguing. So the shaila is, is it adding or arguing? Which means, does the Mechaber hold of the Rama? The second thing is, asur leishev, so is it him and not her? Third of all, shemisnadedes v'eina mechuberes. Well, the truth is we should be medayek seif sif alef. What about seif sif katzar? I guess that's peshita. Maybe that's why it says seif sif alef, because seif sif katzar, of course not. Even orch. The chiddush is even orch, okay? Shemisnadedes v'eina mechuberes, so it's mashma both. But if it would be mistaded v'ein v'mechuberes, or mechuberes v'eina mistadedes, no problem. Also l'kaisel, mashma l'kaisel not l'karka, or maybe it's a chiddush, even l'kaisel. And the last thing, sheyeshives alav, it's as if like she's there already. He wants to sit when she's there already. Okay. So let's begin from the Hagah. Is he adding or arguing? L'choira he's arguing. Pashtus, right? If he doesn't bring it, the Mechaber, so he must be arguing; the Mechaber must not hold of it. If you take a look at the Beis Yosef, he says takke the minhag is not like this halacha. So l'choira, that's why, right? Couldn't get a better reason why he doesn't bring it, because he doesn't hold of it. And the biggest proof for it is because he himself said so. Ein l'cha raya gedolah מזו that he himself said it. Strikingly, it's interesting, the Chida comes along in the Birkei Yosef, siman קט״ו, and he says, yeah, he doesn't hold of it. I mean, obviously it's pretty clear, right? We're going to soon learn that the Ben Ish Chai, Parshas Tzav, os chaf gimmel, and in Rav Pe'alim chelek gimmel, siman...

Said says that it's not so, that in Baghdad they were machmir and yesh mimachmir like the shita of the Rama. Oh, so I don't know. I don't know. You guys should know better than me. You saw this inside. You saw the Ben Ish Chai. So in the Ben Ish Chai, does he use the word minhag? That's how, because in the Rav Pe'alim he says minhag, but I want to know if he brings it in the Ben Ish Chai that way. Okay, so while you're checking, while you're checking, there's nothing. I'm not saying anything. It's just very simple. What's the geder of the problem? I'm not holding it yet. Now, once you understand the geder, then we'll see if it's a chumra or it's halacha. Okay, so im yirtzeh Hashem we'll get to that in a few minutes. Right now we're still holding by defining the Rama. Is the Rama eating, or is the Rama arguing? Parshas Tzav, Ois Chav-Gimmel. Second year or first year? Okay, continue. All right, so it could be he agrees that the Mechaber doesn't hold of it, and it's just a minhag ba'alma, just a custom, maybe. Interesting, why would he have customs against the Mechaber, I guess? Maybe it has to do with Baghdad, I don't know. Maybe the people in Baghdad were more romantic, so therefore they were not allowed to sit on the same benches. I guess in Tzfas, in Tzfas where the Mechaber wrote his halachos, they didn't have to worry about these things. I don't know. This is an interesting—usually... Yeah, it's not Rav Ovadia now, it's the whole kollel yelling and screaming, so tell them to pipe it down. Shmuel, you have to talk lower. Okay, you're a few minutes late because we said that. We know that. The question only is, is the minhag based because for some reason they pasken like the Rama, stam that even though we pasken like the Mechaber, but the minhag is like the Rama, meaning the minhag is to be machmir. Okay, who says? Who says? Huh? He brings from the Chida that they would want just machmir like the Ashkenaz, not the Rama. Right. Not like the... And he points out, he brings... whatever it is. Okay, either way, I'm not going to get into the logistics of it. Point being that this Rama is not shitas haMechaber, lahalacha. The question is, I think it's fair to ask, till what point in the Rama does the Mechaber not hold of? Is the pshat is v'asa lei al safso and the Mechaber doesn't agree with that? Or it's included to the next halacha, v'chein lo yeilech... which we'll have to discuss separately about taking traveling trips. But is that also included in the Mechaber not holding of the Rama? Nikar halacha. So the truth is that Beis Yosef just said by safso it's not our minhag. But when it came to... Sfina, he doesn't say anything. The Meish Yosef never stressed, he never put down clearly that he doesn't hold of it. So maybe he doesn't hold of safsul. Now, what's the difference? I mean, it's possible to hold not of safsul and to hold yes of sfina. So if you take a look at the Rapayam, Yoreh Deah, chelek zayin, siman yud-zayin, that he taka says that teil, which means the story of sfina in the Rama, is actually worse than safsul, which would make sense to say then he might not hold of safsul, but yet the mechaber might agree by sfina, because sfina is worse, right? So just because he said by safsul I don't hold of it, doesn't mean the same is true by sfina. And hachanami, taka paskens, sfina is l'chumra; you have to be very careful. So paskens the Ben Ish Chai and the Rapayam. L'chidan, shiurei brachos, seif katan tes-vav, taka says the opposite, that safsul is more chamur. And if we hold by safsul it's mutar, then sfina lo kol shekein. Okay, so this is the halacha within the reading of the halacha. Okay, very interesting, right? So you like the way I put it down, right? Which means is that this, when the Rama...

Comes along and says a new chiddush. He's saying actually two chiddushim. He's saying a chiddush of safsul misnaded, and then he talks about tefinah. So when we discuss shitas hamechaber that he argues, which one is he arguing with? The first, or maybe he's arguing on the whole Rama? The diyuk that you make, because he himself said, he himself only said it by safsul; he never said it by tefinah. So the Rappeh Al Taka says this: tefinah is different; it's worse. Mashenkin the Chida learns the opposite, that safsul is worse. If by safsul it's okay, then so too by tefinah kol shekein it should be okay. Tzarich biur b'machlokes. What's the machlokes, the Chida and the Ben Ish Chai in this? It's very interesting. I hold it's a very yesodisdike shaylah. You hear? Is safsul worse or is tefinah worse? That's how I want to tackle this halacha: is safsul worse, is tefinah worse? Agav, I don't want you to think that safsul is just so mutar, you know, ah, the Chida says so. In Chaim Sha'al, chelek beis, siman lamed ches, os mem gimel, which is also the sefer of the Chida, he says clearly, yarei Shamayim yachmir, he should be machmir, that he shouldn't take tiyulim in the case of tefinah. Yarei Shamayim should not do the case of tefinah, no tiyulim. And in Ta'aris Habayis, siman yud-beis, siman chaf-alef, he speaks about kisא misnaded, also mutar, and tov lovrachah if you don't do it. So I don't want you to walk around, It's fine, it's fine. The new thing is it's fine. It's a new excuse to do whatever you want. That's so pashut. Unless you want to claim that you're not a yarei Shamayim, then I can't help you. Then I cannot. But if you're a yarei Shamayim, and if you're interested in bracha, are you interested in bracha? לגבי, right? Bracha? Rav Elyashiv tells you, תבוא אל הברכה. You want a bracha? Go do this halacha of kisui hamisnadvim. No? You're not medaik? That's what he says. Could you read it? Because, like, I know people are going to walk away saying, 'He's distracted.' Here, let's see: טהרת הבית סימן י' ב' סימן כ'. You have it? Good, read it, read it, read it. Okay. So l'maaseh it's mutar, yeah? Yeah? So l'maaseh it's mutar. So there's no problem of kisui, sefaso misnadved, there's no story. Go ahead. Now stop looking at the bottom. Look at the top. Continue, yeah? No, you have a ... you lost it. He also brings it. Ah, he does. He says it by kisui. He doesn't say by sefaso? He says even those ... regarding the ... and the tevil, nevertheless the tevil ... Only by tevil he says it? Ah, okay. Okay, so right, tznius obviously we're with that shita. Okay, tznius is a little worse. Tznius is a little worse, so maybe the ... is only for tznius and not for ... Okay. What's the machlokes? What are they arguing? Tznius worse, sefaso worse, sefaso worse, tznius worse. Yeah? Okay. Let's go to the reasons for kisuy ha-misnaded, the chair, safsal that's misnaded. What's the reason? Let's get to the shoresh of the halacha, why it's asur. So the mekor of this halacha is a trumas ha-deshen, right? That's where it comes from. The mekor of the halacha is trumas ha-deshen. The trumas ha-deshen says that the reason is because when you sit on a kisuy ha-misnaded, it's derech chibah. Derech chibah. Now I want to ta'ina that the strict reading of the trumas ha-deshen, it's derech chibah even if you're not going to touch. You notice that the Rema brings these two halachos together: Leishev al safsal aruch she-misnaded, and also yeilech im ishto ba'agalah achas, o b'sfinah achas, nimhalech derech teihul, right? Why? L'cho'orah derech teihul is also chibah, right? It's very enjoyable.

Act, right? It's a honeymoon, like a honeymoon, honeymoon, you go traveling. So too, the case of safek misnadev, if you read the words of the Terumas HaDeshen, the implication is that it's strictly in itself, inherently, an act of chibah. Okay. So the Badi HaShulchan in the Aros and the Badim asks a kashya. So then why do you need misnadev? If the whole thing is because derech chibah, so even if it's not misnadev, I mean, if it's to sit on the same thing, it's derech chibah, so even if it doesn't move. So I want to taina that I don't like his kashya. I mean, I do like his kashya, but I don't give a teretz to his kashya; I hold his yesod. Regular uvdos of chibah is not asur. You can't come and say I'm not allowed to do things together, which are acts of husband and wife. It's not holy. It has to be something that connects the two of us when we do that derech chibah. Let me say it again. A person is not mechuyav to do things, to not do things which husbands and wives do. The issur is to do things that husband and wives do, to do it together. That's what's problem. Did you hear what I just said? Say something you're very interested. Are they supposed to not seem or look or act like husband and wife? Then they shouldn't go to a wedding together. Shouldn't go to a wedding together. Don't go to a wedding, right? On the invitation it says Mr. and Mrs. No. I'm sorry, I can't have Mr. and Mrs., because we can't go to a wedding as if we're married. Unless you say it's not a chibah, I don't know, stamma going, it's a shtickel chibah, a little bit, all right? We're not allowed to do it together. There's got to be something that it's attaching me to you while we're doing this derech chibah. Where did I get this from? If you take a look, the Shach says a vart, which we have to work on. The Shach says, what's the reason, which we'll get to later again, b'arichus, but b'kitzur now, what is the reason why you're not allowed to be on a safsel hamisnaded? Remember the Shach in Nekudas HaKesef? What's his reason? That through the nidnud, you're margish ha'isha, v'havi k'negi'ah. Go ahead, read it inside. Nekudas HaKesef, go ahead, nu? Nu? It's not because of hirhur, all right? What's it because of? Because it moves, havei k'negi'ah. How is it moves havei k'negi'ah? So how is that knigiah? I have a shayla. You know, there's a whole shayla in halacha. Halachos. This is where you're gonna see the difference between my shiur and other shiurim. This is where I think out of the box. Tell me, are you over an aveirah and chayav malkus, lo sachsim shor b'disha by yelling at the animal, ‘Stop! Don't eat, don't eat the food’? Akimas v'sayin lo have a ma'aseh, correct? Akimas—it's malkus, no? Akimas, I yell and I frighten the animal from not eating while he's plowing, that's called lo sachsim shor b'disha al yedei peh. Now you think, what does that have to do with Hilchos Niddah? How did this come into me? It's not mutar, but it's eino chayav malkus because there's no ma'aseh. What happens if a wife yells at you, ‘You don't do this,’ and you stop because you're scared, right? You're terrified of her. Huh? Shor b'disha, lo sachsim shor b'disha. You hear? You're in the middle of eating supper and she screams at you. Just kidding, yeah. So I'm asking you like this.

Are you gonna say it's negiah? She touched you? You definitely felt, you definitely margish her. Explain to me, what's this? What is this about? She's moved, and if she's not moving you, why isn't negiah tolui in the hargashah, in the nidud? Excuse me, why isn't negiah tolui in the nidud? Nidud, yeah? Even if I'm not moving you, I mean, if you're touching to— if you're learning, sir, that it has to do with I'm touching you through something else, then it has nothing to do with moving you. I'm touching you. Okay, let's start again. Let's start again. Let's start again. If, let's say, I take a book— what? What? He's saying good? Only a type of a touch. I'll give you hirhurim, and if she touches you with not hirhurim— what? What is he saying? What is he saying? Honestly, why if you get moved, then there's hirhurim, and if you don't get moved, then there's no hirhurim? You should not touch you moved directly; it's just touching me out, so you don't feel the— no hirhur involved. It's when the object moves that you don't— I thought you're saying it has to— even in negiah it has to— Yeah, that's— but that's why nidud causes hirhur. He wants to connect the two things. It's not because of hirhur; it's because of negiah. Comes Ravina, he says, no, because of hirhur. No, the negiah is the hirhur. How about learning not that way? How about learning it— it's not because of hirhur, it's only because of negiah and not because of hirhur. No, he never thought of that. It's not because of hirhur. Does that make sense, though? Are you allowed to touch your wife without hirhur? Yeah. Yeah? So you're a meshugah. I'm saying with words. Stam a mishugene. No, no. I don't... It's on record. It's on record. I'll say it even more. You know, I'm ready to say even more. You gotta be careful. Let me ask you again. Quiet! You're wasting my time here. If a person touches his wife, it's aser. So why do you have to misread the Shach to say it's not because of hirhur, it's because of negiah, because in negiah you're gonna find hirhur? Why would you do that? Why can't you just say he means it's a ta'am in negiah? Again, if he says it's not because of hirhur, it's because of negiah, and you still feel it's because of hirhur, is that what you're telling me? Negiah itself. Negiah itself. So he's telling you, you mean the lamdus. What does he keep... I was talking the daf from a different case to this. He says if the lamdus doesn't make sense, with hirhur itself is not hirhur. Sitting on a bench stam is not hirhur. But if you move somebody, that's called negiah. That causes hirhur. Just stam sitting on a chair... But why would you say that? I don't understand. It makes sense. Yeah, so what you're learning is that there's no special ta'am of the Shach. There's no new ta'am. You know that the poskim are not like you, that it's a new ta'am. There's a ta'am in negiah. It's a whole different reason. Okay, so I'll tell you why. As far as you're concerned, you learned the Shach this way. I'd like to teach my friends here the real pshat in the Shach, and that is that it's not about hirhur, it's about negiah, okay? Oh, so why is the sefer moving negiah? Why is the sefer moving negiah? Let me tell you something. You know when you sit on a chair, I have nothing to do with you. Meaning, on a bench, we're both sitting on a bench. I have nothing to do with you. When a person sits on a bench, it's an act of not having to do with the other guy. Don't look there. Look here. I'm saying he says before, Lo dagatam lav yeshun hiru, ela ki b'deh negiah. But he says not like that. So he's learning it doesn't mean directly here; it means the negiah through here. That's what he's learning. Okay, so one second. So you see how you feel? That's how I feel when he frustrates me for no reason. He's not so bad, but the truth is he can learn pshat the way I... Now listen carefully. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's not much what you're saying. Pashut pshat is negiah, and that's the pshat you're bringing down something new. Now, let's go weiter. I hold a yesod. Someone told me...

Did you meet so-and-so by a chasidah? He asked me about a certain person if I met him by the chasidah. Now, I don't like this person because I hold he's a megaleh panim. B'teirah, I don't like certain people that hurt other people, who use halachas to hurt other people. I'm not people I have anything to do with, okay? So we sat at the same table. So he asked me, How did you sit at the same table? I said, You ever go on a train? There's a guy sitting next to you on both sides, and a guy sitting right across from you. When you left the train, would you remember who it was? No, right? It's as if we're both going to the same destination, and we happen to be sitting at the same bench. It's the same bench, all connected, right? That's how little shaychus I had by sitting at the same table with this person. Why am I giving you this mashal? Sitting on a bench together with another person is not a connection between two people, because people in public places—you go to the park, you have one guy sitting on the other side of the bench, okay? The nidud connects. It's the movement. No, no, I'm not ready to say anything. The nidud connects. We're being moved, both of us, by a bench. There's a connection between me and you. Something is happening. To the two of us through one bench. That is, we're both being moved by the same bench. Sitting together on the same bench in itself has no shaychus one person to another. It's an act. You know, like, you know, like a swing. Think of a swing. We're both being—I don't know if this is the right word in English—swung? What's the right word? Swang? How would you say it? Swung? Okay. Whatever it is, a, you... When I speak in regular English, it sounds French to you also. Everything I say sounds French to you. Listen carefully. Listen to it. Listen, listen, listen. I think he's saying a mechudik vort, the Shach. The nidnud—what do you call it again? Nidnud. Nidnud. The nidnud is kinuyia. It's mekasher me to you. Sitting on a bench without a nidnud is not a kesher; we have no shaychus to each other. If I sit on one side of a bench, you sit on another side of a bench, I have no connection to you whatsoever. The fact that we're sitting on a bench that's doing the same thing to both of us, that's kinuyia, and has nothing to do with you. Paul is learning the pshat. That somehow, because of nidnud, it reminds me of her, but that's not enough. I need that it should be negiah that reminds me of her. What's wrong if it reminds me without negiah? I don't know. I'm not finished. I'm going to make these nafkaminas. I'm going to pasken. I'm leaning towards paskening every halacha in this sefer with this yesod. Okay, shh, shh, shh, let me talk. Let me talk, please, please. I have so much to do. I have an— Ilan, let me talk. You're not going to let me talk now? לפני? I'm talking. You have to give me an example. Let's say I take a walk with the wife. Chibah. Take her to the— what do they call the place over there with the flowers? What do they call it? The park. Oh, you saw these flowers. We were by the wedding, we had these flowers. Okay, very nice, right? What are you laughing for? You don't tell this to your wife? You should. Okay, now listen carefully. L'cho'orah there's chibah, right? L'cho'orah there's chibah. There's no kesher.

There's nothing connecting the two of us. We're both walking, but there's no... Now, the Orach HaShulchan in sif katan chaf says it's asur. Tiyul, tiyul. L'ganus u'pardesim? L'ganus u'pardesim? You're not allowed to go. Firstly, you see the hasagas of the Rama, what a vacation is. L'ganus u'pardesim. What happened to the Alps? What happened to Disneyland? I guess in his times that was the extent of the tiyulim. There was no Florida and the beaches. It was ganus u'pardesim. Okay. Says the Orach HaShulchan, hu hadin, taking a walk. R' Moshe in the teshuvos, chelek beis, siman pei gimmel says, no. They're walking. They're busy. Bishloima by a sefina, they have nothing to do. They're just sitting over there. So we're afraid. Chashash. If you're walking, I don't know, walking slowly, I would say it's far the opposite. They're taking a lovely walk in ganus u'pardesim. It should be the opposite. I don't know. It's interesting chiluk that he's making. On a boat, you're nothing, and what happens if you do have what to do on the boat? And R' Chaim, so R' Moshe holds that as long as... Look at him driving the boat. I want to say even less. I want to say even less. What's wrong, according to R' Moshe, if they're busy doing something? I don't know. She's doing her paperwork, and he's reading the newspaper. What? I don't know. It's a big chiddush. He's saying a chiddush that tiyul is mutar. In sefina, as long as they're doing something. He's telling the exact same case, the case of layelech and ishto bagalah, achas b'sfina achas, says R' Moshe, because they have nothing what to do. Mashma if they would have what to do, so that's mutar. I don't know. Write this on the side of the Shulchan Aruch. I nigres Moshe, only if they have nothing what to do. What's called what to do? What does it mean? Maybe, I don't know, maybe if she plays, if she talks on the phone, it's finished. I don't know. What do you call what to do? Unless maybe R' Moshe means, I hold it as lahalacha, are you allowed to go and walk briskly or exercise with your wife? So according to the Aruch HaShulchan, that you're not allowed to go for a teiul, pardesim, this mistama is mutar, because it's not derech chibah. Even though you wouldn't do it with another person, you're doing it with your wife, so it's together. It's an act of doing together, husband and wife, you know, they're walking 20 miles, 40 miles an hour, whatever it is, I don't know, whatever it is, the miles an hour, right? But the pshat is, but the pshat is, they're osek in the exercise. Maybe that's what R' Moshe means. The halichah, there's some tafkid to the halichah, then it's mutar. But if they're just walking, and R' Moshe would be machmir. But just because they're walking, you're walking botanical garden, you don't say it's derech chibah. What is R' Moshe talking about? Okay, Iyun deigres Moshe, and I think it needs hadarah. But if, maybe, maybe that's what R' Moshe means, but even if he doesn't mean that, I hold this halachah lemaaseh, that even according to the Aruch HaShulchan that says you're not allowed to go for a walk with your wife, if you're allowed to go for a brisk walk... Purpose of exercise, that should be mutar. Okay. I want to tie in another thing also. You know, in the olden days, a woman basically never left her house. Never left her house. So if a woman's already going out, walking with her husband, so that's called walking with her husband. Today, women walk, and men walk, and everybody's walking. Who's not walking? So the fact that a husband and a wife are walking together, I don't think it's called a tehilah derech chibah. She's walking and he's walking. Who's not walking today? Huh? In maskim? Who said that they walk together every time? Maybe once in a... I don't care. Why? Didn't—how often do you go out? You didn't hear what I said. I want to tie in a... The answer is—shh—think of what I'm saying. The answer is not for them to do acts together. It's together to do acts that are together. They're not allowed to do together, connectively, things that are derech chibah.

In the old days, the fact that a husband is walking together with his wife, that itself is a connection because they wouldn't be walking together. There's something unique. Today, men are walking to work, women are walking to work for their own, and each one could be walking just for the sake of walking. Could be that's the heter. Why aren't you writing this down? Why is this different than any other harchakah? I'm saying, I don't understand. Where do we put, what's his name, this, yeah, this... Okay, I'll tell you why it's different. Let's start with tznius basnadit, okay? Shulchan Aruch, Shulchan Aruch is husband and wife. Yeah? I have never sat with another woman at a table, ever. Never happened in all my life. You're right, that's America. In your house? In your house? In your house? How often does a woman sit next to you? Already, this is special. That's all we need. We don't need specifically neighbors to come over. You know what I'm talking... You know what he's talking, right? Because you know what he's talking. Whatever I say, he'll say the opposite. I'm used to it. Married for 20 years. I'm very used to it. Don't worry about it. Dining together, that itself is an act of husband and a wife, right? Sitting on the same bench is not a problem. Sitting on the same bench does not show. Yeah, today it does, because today, we're all very frum, so we don't sit on the same benches. I saw there was a whole article in the newspaper, the Chareidim are trying to say that it's not discriminatory that they have the men on one side, the ladies on the other side. So they interviewed a Chareidi lady and said, Fakert. Fakert. It shows that I'm chashuv, because since if I would sit together, you would definitely fall all over me, and mamish, so you see how much I'm precious, so to keep me in a special... a whole Chareidishe svara. Very nice. I thought it was very cute. I love this. You never read this whole tumah when I was told by Chareidim that it's sexist to have the women separate. All right, enough for me. Okay. To sit on the same bench is darchei shalom. Avada today it's not, but in the old days they didn't know the difference in this, okay? Point being, what creates a kesher? The kesher is not that we're sitting together on the same bench. The nidon is that the bench is mekasher us, because it's doing the same thing for us. I'll prove this to you over and over again, but first get the yesod, okay? The problem is not chibah. The problem is to connectively, connectively do things of chibah, okay? Going for a walk. So I'm telling you, l'choira, there's no, there's no kesher. It's just I'm walking, she's walking. Okay. What's the second reason why you're not allowed to have kisui hamisnade? So the first reason we learned, first reason we said was chibah, the trumas hadeshen. Chibah. This is a thing of chibah. And we're mechadesh that even according to the Trumas HaDeshen, it needs nidud, nidnud, because it's not just chibah, but it's together. Something, there's got to be something that's putting us together in the same scenario of the chibah. Okay. The second reason, the Taz, se'if katan vav, says the Taz, meivei leidei hirhur. You want to read the Taz? Meivei leidei hirhur. No, you have the Taz? You reading it? Se'if katan vav. Taz, let's go. No? So you see clearly it's hirhur, right? So therefore he asks even what? Yeshiva. Yeshiva, right? Because meivei leidei hirhur. Sound familiar? That's what I'm telling you. If you hold of hirhur, so any connection...

is a problem. You need more than just the svara of hirhur to come and aser. What's that svara? Because it's not about hirhur. It's about that we're connected somehow. No. Chibah and hirhur? No, I don't think so. Chibah is that it's an act of— and hirhur is things that bring to. Hirhur b'yetzak— it's a ma'aseh devar. He's saying a ma'aseh chiddush. If it's al tzhirhur, then nidah is not a sugya takah. So then what is it? What is this nidud, this vort that I'm saying, that the chair is being menaded both of us? Okay. Now, I just, agav אורחא, I want to know pshat in the Taz. Does he mean that the chair that moves, it's such a chair that's mevi lidei hirhur? Or is it the nidnud? Is it the action of nidnud that reminds you of her, I guess, and it's menaded? I mean, which one is it? I mean, truthfully, I don't really know what the hirhur is. L'mashal, you get into a car in this movie— without the move. Hirhur? I wasn't 100% sure what he means by this. I guess the vort is if you have a constant reminder that she's there, so then all of a sudden you start thinking about her. How did you learn hirhur? I'm not 100% sure how to learn it even. But again, so what does that have to do with nidud? Yeah, and what happens if it's chover? Again, and if it's mechuber, then it's allowed. So you mean if I sit next to her and it's attached to the ground, oh, I'm not thinking about it at all. If I sit next to her and it's— whoa. Can you understand that? That to you makes sense. I don't care, but I'm asking you, what's the difference? I don't understand. If the problem is sitting next to her causes the problem, then it has nothing to do with mechubar, not mechubar, yenalah, sitting in the shul, period, right? Obviously that's not true. So I'm asking you, you have hagdarah in it, and the answer is what, yes or no? Okay, thank you. That's what I'm trying to get to. I don't have hagdarah. I don't understand. If it moves— you know, this side it's on a swing, so that type of movement I could hear. But if the taiches that the— here, I mean, what, the little movement? It doesn't have to move a lot. It can move even an inch, even a half an inch. It could be that we'll soon learn what happens if it just, you know, the couch-type movement. It's such a little movement. That's also toleh b'machkarin. I don't understand what that's going to be. Maybe the here, unless you say because it reminds you constantly that she's there, otherwise you forget. I don't know. I'm just— I'm clarifying, okay? Because it's very difficult to understand here. Now, the Shach, I told you, says that has to be nogea. Then the Shach says another reason. So the other reason, mita achas. Just like mita achas is aser, so too al kisei achas is aser. Yeah, so, and a Chnami, what does that do menadeh? Where did menadeh come into the picture? If it's mita achas, right, it should be aser even if it's not nistaned. You're not allowed to sin on the same bed with a woman, period. End of story. It has nothing to do with misnade. You're not allowed to sin in the same bed with a woman. So does that have anything to do with misnade? So what is the Shach talking about? Good? I don't know. Okay, so I don't know. That's that. I don't know and you don't know, so we're both in the same boat. Is that mutar l'halacha to be in the same boat? Okay. Now, Yitzchak, are you with me? Are you with me? I'll tell you the truth, I'm very, very tired, but I don't really care because I'm really fighting to get to the truth. Let's get down to the bottom. You just told me a sevara here. I don't have a clue. I don't know what it means. I don't understand. How do they make hirhur and type certain chairs? Make hirhur certain chairs. Don't make hirhur. I don't know. This is what you learn: misnade is like a whole amusement park. We're going back and forth, and it's geshmak, and yeah, okay. It can be misnade anything, so there's nothing about the misnade that makes the hirhur. So what is it exactly? Shach mitoch, mitoch is mutar even without misnade. So what does he mean?

Say it the way I'm saying. Say it the way I'm saying. A mita b'etzem. A mita b'etzem. Say what we're saying. Is an active— huh? Negiah. No, the second reason that he says. Yeah. That's a very chiddush. That's a very chiddush. To come and say that has only— l'maaseh it's in the Rama. The Rama holds there's a chiluk. I mean, you could come and say, ein hachanami. You know what you could say? Ein hachanami. You know, it's a very nice way of answering all kashas: I really need nidah for ein hachanami. You don't need it. Adaraba says you do? Okay, it's ein hachanami. Ein hachanami. You like the way the teretz? I could have done— I don't need avlishayim for that. I could do that also. Ein hachanami. Ein hachanami. Point to the— ein hachanami. You're right. You like his teretz? You like it? The Rama says, yeah, the Shach is learning, but it's not in the Rama. It's stam for good measure. You're right, he's not coming in the Rama. So what do you want? The Shach is learning— Shach is writing his own Shulchan Aruch now. Let me tell you, ilan, ilan, I think you won't do this. I'm playing with you. We think I don't know that they sit there and they say, Trumos Hadeshen never said nidah, never did good. Yeah, but the Rama did. So it's very hard to come and say, you know what, I didn't see the Rama. Let's go straight to the Trumos Hadeshen. Come on, you know, you're playing games here. Let's learn the Rama. Nidah is important, and he still compares it to bi'ah achas, and yeah, there's a chiluk, because bi'ah achas is the taich. It's a nice issue, like shulchan. Just like by shulchan, it's dining with your wife. That itself is the kesher. Sitting on a mita achas, I hope you don't do it with any other lady besides your wife. So therefore it's... but to make a shul, a kiseh, into us, you need that the kiseh is doing something to both of us. I'm going to repeat it to you again. I don't care. I am not scared of anything. I don't care what you guys think or say. I'll say it over a thousand times, please get it. I don't care. Okay, listen. It's very simple. You must connect the husband and the wife in the sugya of kisufsa. You must connect the husband and the wife in the story of Safsa. And it can't be the fact that they're sitting on the same bench, because there's nothing wrong with sitting on the same bench with a stranger. Me sitting with the other guy on a bench has nothing to do with me, and has nothing to do with him, and the two of us have nothing to do with each other. Like I told you at the chasna and the train, I don't know you, you don't know me, I have nothing to do with you. But if we took a ride together, and I'm cheating a little because I'm going to fast forward to the end of the year with the car, if we took a ride together with you, so the fact that together something is happening, it's pe'ulah. There's something happening to the two of us on this bench, and not just we're sitting there. That makes that the bench, the bench is connecting me and you.