Harchakos in Hilchos Niddah: Shared Seats, Movement, Cars, and Swings

Transcript

Ready? ... Very, very ... today. ... What? It says the derech of nidah is also standing there. That's what he's saying, because it's standing and it's not sitting. I said the ... would be normal derech is to stand there. Yeah, that's what he wants to be mechadesh, that any standing, even on a ... is mutar. That's what he wants to be mechadesh. Yeah. Example, if you, let's say, a merry-go-round, a carousel, and you're standing there on the steps, on the seats, he wants to be mechadesh issur lo yeishev. He says it. He says lo yeishev. The shailas should be applied to amidos of nidah. So I'm telling you like this: if you learn that it's strictly the takanah of mita achas, so I could say maybe it's only yeishev, okay. If it has to do with hirhur, and nidah causes hirhur somehow, like you learned, I don't know, maybe this nidah also causes hirhur, I don't know, if a guy's in an elevator. First of all, that's my decision to yes or to... Okay. The nidah of the elevator is not nidah caused by her or by him; it just happened to be that the elevator goes up. So maybe the world... Wait a second, wait a second, sir, sir. That's only Remaisha's chiddush that it has to be the day causes it. I don't know, it's a very big chiddush, I don't know. Tell me by the case. No, that is a very big... According to what you're learning, as long as you're not being the menadned... As long as you're not being the menahig, or, for example, a boat. I mean, the story of the boat is asur. Hein leyelech mishto bagalos... What? Well, that's not so pashut. That's a shaylah how to learn this sefinah. Or because it's moving and then sitting, and then it stops l'echol l'shem teiul. Rav Moshe is saying a very big chiddush, but that's a chiddush. I'm saying pashut is, as long as it moves, it's a problem. If you learn that it's... huh? You can't go on a plane together. You could be sitting on a different bench. You mean to a teiul, to a destination. And a Chanami, that's the shaylah in this sugya. Maybe you're not allowed to travel together. That's the shaylah in the sugya. Hakointe many poskim, you're not allowed to travel together. I mean, let me tell you, you know what it became? Understand what it became. First of all, the svara is not negeia, because the whole thing is not negeia. So half of Klal Yisrael is not negeia. Ela mai, ela mai, terashkana. So Rav Moshe came up with a heter, otherwise you wouldn't be able to go. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to go. Again, you're not moving the airplane. That's the heter. That's automatic. It's not you. Okay, you know, we're going off track. We're going off track. Okay. Point being, point being, you hear? If you learn nidnud, if you learn it's about nidnud, so again, stick with nidnud over here. You have it, right? If you learn that it has to do with maaseh chibah, I don't go in elevators, maaseh chibah. Huh? Yeah, you could play with these sevaras. Let's say yichud in an elevator, there's nobody there, there's no camera, and it's menagned. I mean, l'maaseh, you see that the goyim have a mishigas with an elevator, so I don't know. Yesh l'ha'ayin. Okay, let's go weiter. Another shaila. The Rama says, and this we're going to get to the lashon of the Rama, that it's misnadned. I don't know, there's something about an elevator. I don't know, it's... bizarre things just in a... I don't know. I don't know. I never thought about it. Okay, so can I tell you the truth? I never went into the details of it. I'm saying, I never thought about the cheshbonos of it. Same here. Especially because once you're into taavah, they take you in. It has nothing to do with elevator. It has to do with some private place, secluded, closed. Okay. It's one of the biggest things, the move is the elevator. I don't even... but I don't... You know what? It's a shiur, so I have to be careful. I know, I know. Elevator is the biggest theme in all the movies. Okay, let's go weiter. Come. Not again. Let's go weiter.

Can we go weiter? Yes. Okay. Now, a tafsil mechuber, right, and it's natdei, and it moves, right? So it's mechuber. So the Rama says that you need both. You need that it's b'snatdei v'eino mechuber. So l'choira, if it's mechuber and misnadned, then it should be okay, right? Why is it that way? Why if it's mechuber, yeah, and it's misnadned, it should be mutar? Well, why? If the nidn makes hirur, what's the difference? You know that it's mechuber at the other end. Well, who cares? A swing that's mechuber, then it becomes mutar. And agav, I have another shaila. L'choira, what happens if you have like a swing set? So the truth is the chair itself is not stuck to the ground, but the poles that hold it are stuck to the ground. So I don't know. Mistama you could call mechuber l'karka k'karka, right? Can't say it's not a mechuber l'karka swing set, mechuber l'karka, right? Not mekabel tumah. So then I have a kasha for you. Not only, not only, that we're saying that there's no problem when it's not mechuber. I'm sorry, that it's only a problem when it's mechuber, when it's not mechuber, excuse me, when it's not mechuber. You can have a case where it's even not mechuber, but it's mechuber to something which is mechuber, and yet then it's okay. What, there's no hirur then? A chibur shnifla. How do you learn this halacha? I want her b'shem Reb Elyashiv, it has to do tumah and taharah of chibah l'karka. Whatever hilchos tumah and taharah, it's called mechubar. So I'd rather want the ta'ina. Maybe that's what he means by koisel. What does he want, mechuberes l'koisel? It's mechubar to the koisel, it's mechubar to karka. What? What? He's saying a bigger chiddush. He's telling you a chiddush. It's two steps away from the karka, and it's still called connected. The swing set, it's tied, it's mechubar to the poles, and the poles are to the karka. Ah, you like it. Yeah, chiddush? Koisel. Why is he talking about a koisel? To teach me it doesn't have to be directly to the karka. And why? Mechubar l'karka k'karka dami. No, he meant whatever is mekabel tumah, he meant in hilchos chibah l'karka, whatever is mechubar l'karka. So I'm asking you, what's the difference in here of mechubar, it's not mechubar? I want to say a chiddush nifla. You ready? The way we learn, gar gavaldik, gar gavaldik. The problem isn't directly here. The problem is that the bench is doing the same thing to both of them. Do you know when something doesn't move away from its place, it's not called a nidnud, you know that? Something that goes back and forth to its original place. Give me an example. On Shabbos, there's something called muktzah machmas chisaron kis, yeah? A breakfront. When you open the—it's called breakfront, right? What's it called in English? A breakfront, right? Is that a muktzah machmas chisaron kis? Expensive, right? It's fancy. Are you allowed to open to take out something? A movie muktzah machmas chisaron kis, what's the difference? Then moving it from its place. It's called moving from its place, because you're just opening and putting it back. It's mechubar. It never moved. But the act of nidnud and the hergeshim and the chibah, that you're swinging it back and forth. So truth is, I can't be matir the swinging back and forth on a swing set, even though if you know the halacha well. Again, the Rama gave me two conditions. The Rama said if it's not mechubar l'karka, this is mechubar l'karka. What are you going to say? You're going to argue to me that it's not mechubar l'karka? Again, so I told you, I won't be matir it because of this reason. I want you to know the shulchan.

I want you to know the Shulchan Aruch, and according to Shulchan Aruch, that shouldn't be a problem. To go on a chair that moves a little bit, yeah, אסור. To swing back and forth, like a baby, that's mutar. Who said? The Rama. You're going to get up, you're going to read the Rama three times now, and you're going to show me how the Rama said, No! No! Get up and read the Rama and say, and read the Rama, show me that it's not what the Rama says. So what do you want? Why? You hear a pshat? So let him not say it. Tell me why does he say it. So you tell me another pshat, and then you can pasken the way you want. In the meantime, in the meantime, you tell me another pshat. Again, ... Yitzchak, you see the difference between learning and not learning? You answer. You tell me that I'm not telling the truth. It's not what the Rama says. Learn the Rama. Yeah, but you can't move that switch, that's mechubar l'karka. What difference? Where are you talking about? Huh? What's the difference? It's mechubar l'karka. What, what, what, what? Let me just hear him first. What? It doesn't make a difference, but if it's mechubar l'karka... What? How far can you move something that sort of like this? It doesn't mean swing around like this. Because the sofa must be... You should just attach a little bungee... It must be something that goes back on the sofa and you're sitting on, not the... He says shemisnadnedes. ...moving. Now you want to say a chiddush, nadnedes, misnadnedes a little bit, but not good. Okay, so say that. I'll do, yeah, I'll do. I'm maskim. I'd rather one... I told you I won't be matir. I won't be matir a guy should sit with his wife on a swing set having a pina colada. I'm not matir. You're right, but if you read the Rama, it's mutar. What am I telling you? So you want to say misnadnedes means a little. Excuse me. What you did, zoz misnadnedes, you're gonna start taking out the jastro now. Zoz means to move a lot. No, it means to move a little bit. Okay, maybe, but at least you understand this Rama now. At least you know that we're learning the Rama. I agree with you. I won't be matir, but I'm telling you, the Rama. Read the Rama. It's not so poshut, the Rama. Let's go weiter. Now, couch. So everybody talks about the couch, because when she sits down on the couch and he sits down, the fluff and it's fluffing, it's moving, right? I don't know, some vibrations, I don't know, whatever, whatever, however you explain it. The Hebrew books, by the way, have a hard time explaining the vibrations and the movements and the... Okay, I'm saying, you know. All right. What type of ... chiddush, yeah? Sheva Levi, that's allowed? It's a kisei that's misnade, it's moving, yeah? And asi zak the velt, you know, everybody told me, right? He told me about couches, he was all into couches. So Sheva Levi says put something there. You should put something in between husband and wife when they sit on a couch. Now, I believe the problem is, mimargish the isha and a chanah, mimargish, right? If the lomdus is that something is being done to them together, what the kesher? So by sitting on a couch and grada you feel because the couch is made in such a way, I don't think it's a problem. I don't believe in the whole business. The what? I can't hear. Kisei what? Because it's moving them. It's doing something to them together. What is this doing to them? No. Swing, what's wrong with this?

Yeah, there was too much swing. That was the case. Can I tell you something? And I don't care what anybody says, I hold that that's the pshat in the Rambam. The Snadi doesn't mean that it's creaky and it's moving. You know something? A bunk bed. I was thinking about a bunk bed. You have a bunk bed and it's moved, because when she moves, right, and it moves on the bottom. It's a creaky old bunk bed, right? That's even worse. Mita'aches. So firstly, you have to clarify, is that called mita'aches? Top and the bottom, maybe it's called two different beds. It's a nice shaila. I want you to know that this was nogea to me many times, a lot of l'maaseh. Bunk bed, you go on a trip and it's a bunk bed. That's what it is. That's a very nice shaila. So l'choira you could clarify it's mita'aches, might be asur. And even if it's not mita'aches, can't be better than the kisא המשנדי that you're talking about. You know what the teretz is? Crickety, crickety beds is not what we're talking about. That's not what mesnadeg is. It's not what mesnadeg means. It's not what mesnadeg means. It's this, it's a moving thing, because I feel, I feel something. Of course it's string. You see how he went from one direction to the other? Why do you go amusement park? I'm scared of these big rides. I like simple things: a car ride, a boat ride. I can think of other cases of kisא המשנדי which the Rambam did talk about. וכן, inside on a boat. A chair inside the car moves. Yeah, it went from Forest Hills to— so that's Rav Moshe's chiddush. That's Rav Moshe's chiddush. But you can't come and say that the chair didn't go from Forest Hills to Borough Park to Lakewood. What do you mean it went? What do you mean? I hold you don't have to feel anything. You don't even know what I'm talking about. The fact that it's riding you together is the problem. It's not feeling. I don't have to sit there— I'm sitting in the back seat, I feel her, I feel her. What are you, crazy? And if it's a good car, you know, let's make a chiluk. If it's a cranky old car and it'd be bumpy, I feel it, okay. But if it's a good—what do they call the new car today? What's the newest car today? Give me a nice, a Lexus, okay? It's a good car, a great car. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, you'll never be a posek. You'll never ever be a posek. You have to think. What? That's a big shaylah of teiu, according to this. But we're not on the same bench. It's only when it's the same bench. It has to be when we're on the—also there's no such shaylah of same bench by a car. It's always separate. Why is it separate? What are you talking about? You have one—what? You have a chanami, if it's two separate—a chanami. The back seat's never a problem. I'm telling you, I'm moiredig a gevalt. You're busy with hargasha. Let me tell you something. If you're sitting on a chair and you feel your wife because it's vibrate, you're crazy. You're meshugah. What should I tell you? Something wrong with you. That's not so pashut that that's the same. I hold there's something—I know you hold there's a lot of poskim write that way. I'm not saying wrong. It's a new way of seeing it. It has to do with that it's misnateh. There's together, we're moving together. It's doing something to the two of us, not just I'm sitting on a park bench. All right. Now, with this—so the truth is, he is going to come and say, Who am I to say? That's probably what you're thinking back in your mind. Okay, I'm not insulted. It's all right. So I went to look. So I saw in sefer Mishmeres Taharah, he brings down— Rabbi Yoshef, the following psak: nidud mamash v'lo hergesh ha-nidud. Yeah, movement, not the feeling of the movement. And therefore by a couch he holds it's not a problem because it doesn't move, and his raya is from Tumah. That's what I was telling you, Rabbi Yoshef's raya from Tumah. The way I'm learning it's going. It's not about hergeshim, that I feel her, I remember her, it reminds me of her. It's not about that. It's that we're moving together. It's a couch, we're together, we're staying in the same place. That's Rabbi Yoshef, the way he understood the siman. I understood it the same way. I went to look. I know it's new, but I don't care. I didn't care. When I saw the Shach, it hit me. He says, not hirhur. He says, not hirhur. He says negi'ah, but it's not negi'ah. What are you talking about? And the answer is, it puts us together. It connects us, the fact that the chair is moving both of us. With this rabboisai, with this rabboisai, like I said, bunk beds, right? I think bunk beds are shtusim v'havalim.

It might be one bed. There's a Sha'arei Teshuva ... a lot of Acharonim ... bed. I went through it when it was nogea l'maaseh. The Acharonim that say it's one bed. Okay. I hold it's not one bed. It's not ... because you see in camps they make it, it's considered for two different people a bed, right? It's meant to be two beds, not one bed. All right, now. What? Two beds connected? Connected? And connected itself is אסור. That's what I think. Oh, he's trying to say it's ... Don't bother me, I'm asking. Now, here. So anything which is just broken and it's moving and cranking, אין בו. Now, car, a bus, big tumul. Some say it's a big problem, a car. I told you from the Darkei Torah that the husband should go in second. First the wife should go and then the husband should go. So when the husband sits down and he moves the chair ... Now to me, there's a lot of things strange. Darkei Torah, Rav Elyashiv. The first thing that was strange to me is I thought it was during the whole trip that the problem is. It seems like he's learning it's like the couch story, that the minute you sit down ... Huh? I don't know. He's not paskening; he just brings it. When he brings the sugya of the car and the bus, it became like only when you go in. That was the first chiddush to me. The second chiddush to me is that it's only one-sided, which is really lo yeishiv. What it says over here, lo yeishiv, it's one side, it's the husband, not the wife. Now, l'choira, if you learn that it's al kasher and touching, negiah, so negiah should be on both. But if you learn it's al hirhur, then it's lo yeishiv of the other simanim of hirhur. So it's interesting. I want you to look there. He says an interesting chiddush that it's more one way than the other, which is a chiddush. I didn't see ... I didn't see. He quotes Acharon, I don't know where it's from. And the second chiddush was that it's only when they go in. Interesting. Okay. Now, Ramoisha. Ramoisha says that it's not the chairs that are moving; it's the car that's moving, and mimeila the car takes you, so it's not that you're moving the chairs, okay. L'choira, those that asser it could be saying a good svara. They're saying that the issue is not so much the nidnud, but the issue is that you're being taken. The car, the chair, the connecting seats is taking me somewhere, so that's where maybe the problem is. A lot of poskim hold you should put something in between. So that's the svara, because they hold that there's a problem even though the chairs are staying and the car is moving, because l'maaseh the chairs are... So what's the chiluk between tiltul and not tiltul? Now, we have another shaila. Misnadned means that you're misnadned. Don't say anything about you're misnadned; it says that it is, right, that it's misnadned. ... seems like through you. Now, I have a different question. Misnasnedes means that when you sat on it, it's misnadned, or it's a chair that's misnadned? Does it have to be that l'maaseh it's misnadned? What happens if it's a swing? No, it's a swing, and when I sit on it, it's not being misnadned. Is it such a chair that's misnadned, or it does the pe'ulah of misnadned? It depends. If you learn that the pshat is it's like a kesher, it's like mita achas, when it's misnadned, so it could be even if it's not moving. The fact that it is such a thing that's misnadned, so therefore it'd be also like mita. You don't need the pe'ulah of misnadned. But if you learned the way we explained that it has to be that it takes them, so it would have to be at... So, I want you to know, I didn't see anybody talk about this. Misnade means that it actually happens. What happens if it's ... something which ... it didn't happen, doesn't happen. We're sitting down and we're going to make sure not to move it. Unless, like Rabbi Eliyahu, it can't be that the minute you sit into it, it automatically moves. Maybe there's no such metzius. I'm not sure. Yeah? Yeah, Rabbi Yitzchak, maybe there's no such metzius. It has to move. All right. Now, according to this, I want to say an interesting chiddush, an interesting chiddush. Where are we holding? We're holding 13, 14. We did all this, we did all this, we did 12. One minute, one minute, one minute. Okay. What kind of a hefsek should you put? So the Rama says, adam, k'she'adam acher. A person or something like that. About a tinok, about a child? Adam. Maybe. So now, if you learned it has to do with shash, kesher, negiah, so maybe, like yichud maybe, you would have such halachos that you would have to put someone there that would be shomer that it shouldn't be negiah.

If the pshat is that you can't have them taking the two of them, you can't have that it's taking the two of them. So if there's a third child, so it's taking everybody. It's not taking the two of them, it's taking everybody. So maybe you can. Why? You can't put a pillow over. Why between them? It's a good kasha, I don't know. But I do want to say, what about putting a chefetz? I saw the Badei Shulchan asks this for a shaila. It says, had, maybe not a chefetz. Now, if you learn it's alt hefsek, so a chefetz is good. But if you learn that the pshat is you can't be that it's taking both, then just because it's taking a chefetz also. It's like the story with the bus. You know the story with the Chofetz Chaim? I'm sorry, with the wagon with the Chofetz Chaim. You know the story? He's a new guy, I say it over all the time. The Chofetz Chaim once went on a— oh, I'm sorry, the Chofetz Chaim brings a mashal, excuse me, excuse me. The Chofetz Chaim brings a mashal of a guy that he wanted a ride on a poor man's buggy. So the guy says, Come. He looks back after a few minutes, he sees he's holding his package. So why are you holding your valise? He said, Because you promised me a ride. You didn't promise my package a ride. So he's holding his package. You tell me, give my suitcase a ride? I'll hold my— says the Chofetz Chaim, that's the pshat also. The Eibishter takes care of the whole world, right? Yeah, but you have to help the Eibishter with the luggage. You and your luggage and your problems and everything. Okay. So here too, I want to know clear like this: you can't say that it's taking me and my luggage separately. It's me, me, me and my wife and the luggage included, so therefore it shouldn't make a difference. Now, lefi zeh, let's go back to the machlokes. I know, one more minute, rabosai. Let's go back to the machlokes. Is tzfina worse, yeah, or is safsal worse? So the Ben Ish Chai comes and says that tzfina is worse. Right? And therefore, just because we're matir safsul, we're matir. Why? Because if you learn it says derech chibah, so ein lecha derech chibah yoser gedolah than sefinah. Sefinah l'shem tehilos, much worse, right? Ma she'ein kein kisei, right? It's just a she'eilah of kesher. So therefore, he held it's sefinah. What did the chida hold? The Chida held fakert. Kisei is worse. Why is kisei worse? It's like mita achas. Yeshivah al kisei is like mita achas. So sefinah, which isn't mita achas, but it's a k'shas shema yavo, they might come lidei liga, so that's much better. What's worse, to sit on the same bed or to go in a situation where you might come to touch? So meileh, the Chida held if this is mutar, kal shekein this is mutar. A double bike, front and back, what's the halacha of a double bike? Chayretz one bike, right? Misnaded, they're making the nidnud, so you can't even come and say that it's grama, right? So chayretz should be asur, double bike. What about rowboat? Right? So big, small, so chayretz, Rav Moshe's heter is on a big one. On a small one, l'chayretz asur, right? So that's what we'll discuss. Two safsalim doesn't really help here. It's a moving boat. It's a moving boat. Yeah, but the car is moving, but here you're moving. You're moving the— I'm not pressing the gas. If I want to make the car— I'm not pressing the gas. The driver's pressing the gas. Okay, so we'll continue Thursday. Rowboat, okay? That's what we're holding, and that's what we'll just do rowboat. Yeah, interesting. You can't take it, huh? Oh, your money for me, Baruch Hashem. How much? A thousand? One thousand. One ten thousand. Okay, next, next, next. Oh, you know, I need his telephone number. Yitzchok still here? Get me—Rafi, Rafi, Rufi, Rufi, go get me Yitzchok's telephone number. Yeah, Charusa, get me his telephone number. Yitzchok, I need your telephone number. What's your telephone number? Yeah, let me—give it to me. What is it? Yeah? 755? Yeah? 4254. Okay, and you're gonna email me tomorrow, right? Yeah. Okay, Baruch Hashem. Yeah, yeah, we're out of the box here, but we're saying good. Yeah. What's mechubal l'karka? What does mechubal l'karka help? I don't know. It seems like mechubal l'karka is not... Even though it could be more misnaneh. That's could be. If you learn the halacha, you learn the halacha. I mean, it's long svaras, but that's not what it says in the Rambam. I'm showing you, I'm showing you. Let's learn the Rambam.

Amen. ChatGPT.

Amen. ChatGPT. עוי. ... חפאי ...

Amen. Amen. ... Amen. ... Amen. ... Amen.