Hilchos Kesamim: Teliyah B’Makah in Family Members, Shared Beds, and the Source of a Stain

Transcript

K'sheim. What does k'sheim mean? It's pashut, pashut. Divyon, k'sichves, ata da, ata svarel, ata. The dinim k'sheim is the same halachos. Hayim yecholim lakachat — could we take all the halachos of ba that we're tolin her and use it and say, gam k'shetolin b'baal uv'bnah, zo to halachos. We're going to see that there's a machlokes haposkim about this. Machlokes haposkim: im kol halachos shel tliya ba are the same halachos as tliya b'bnah uvailo. So k'sheim. So either k'sheim just means it's a sevara, meaning in sevara it's the same. Kemo b'svara, higyoni kacha, zeh higyoni gam kacha, veis. It's just a mashal. K'sheim is mashal and nimshal. Or k'sheim is boto halacha, the Shulchan Aruch, to say k'sheim is a little strong. It's halacha, b'Shulchan Aruch. And I'll tell you, I want to teach you something. I saw a teshuva yesterday from Rav David Feinstein. I have a sefer that has letters that Rav David Feinstein wrote to somebody in Eretz Yisrael. The first time I saw written teshuvos from Rav David, first time. He learns exactly the way we learn, exactly. He takes the Shulchan Aruch and he kvetches it this way and that way, and then takes— Was he from the same thing? Is he toleh the same thing? It's the exact same thing. It's interesting. Thank you for the— It's the exact same halacha. What we learn in Shulchan Aruch, that's how a posek— Learn Shulchan Aruch. Maybe, maybe we could go, maybe not, maybe yeah. Is it doimeh, is it not doimeh? It's a beautiful teshuvah. I mean, things turn. I read it and I go, it's so—you see the way he's meivin the halacha. When you're meivin the yesod, the nekudah d'halacha is, you go to the right, you go to the left, maybe there's a makom to go to the middle, to the side. Same derech. Beautiful. I'm happy that you heard this, okay? I was thinking about it yesterday. I saw the teshuvah. It's interesting. I saw the teshuvah, and I said, you know, it's mamash the way I teach the Shulchan Aruch. Same thing. Kishein. So I want to know what the kishein is. Kishein is davka, lav davka. Shetoilah bo, kachtoilah bivno u'vailo. Does it say how old bno is? Katuf kama bno? Lo katuv. Bno. How old is his bno? Could his bno be only a child, maybe? Why? Because a child, you kiss, you hug, you have shaychus too. Sleep together, right? Or bno could be grown-up bno. Why? Because there is a liga bo. He definitely touch—al kol panim, you could touch, right? But it's not the same dargah of liga, right? Ben gadol, ata nogea bo, noten lo le'echol. By mistake you touch him, right? Or you're not makpid, nisah shelo ligoa bo. Aval, aval, mamash she... I don't know. It's not, it's not bor in the Shulchan Aruch. יש פוסקים שמדברים, בנוגע גדול, בנוגע קטן, אבל בשולחן ערוך לא כתוב. איתי יכול להגיד, יכולים להגיד, שלא צריך שייכות גדול, קשר גדול, יושנים ביחד. לא צריכים ישנים ביחד. מאחר שלא נזהרים לא ליגע, נמצא שיש מקום קשר, נמצא ששייך, אז לכן כבר הלכה, ההלכה is יש מקום לתלות, דילמא. No. מאחר ששוכבים יחד, מאחר ש... השייכות is. אם יש בזה, בוודאי יש בזה. This svara we encountered in shiur hakodem, really, right? I'm showing you that once you see it in the previous shiur, now you'll have to see it over here too. האם הפשט הוא לא נזהרים לא ליגע, לא ליגע? A normal person, you have no shaychus to. Why would you touch a stranger, right? מה שאין כן, מה שאין כן, בנו, בנו, and it's...

What we say is heimish, heimish, you know. We're gonna get to Chavruta. We're gonna get to this, okay? Ma she'ein lamazeh heimish? Heimish is a milah b'Yiddish, k'mo b'bayit. Chofshi, am. Yeah, no, no, it's not, there's not... Okay. So the she'eilah is, what is liga? So let's see the lashon, you hear? Im nis'asku b'ksamim, o im yesh בהם מכה, lefi shedarkam, darkam liga bo. Ma kavonah darkam liga? Ha'im ha-kavonah, darkam, פירוש, זהו הדרך באמת, הם רגיל, it's regular. No, darkam liga bo k'min, it's normal to touch. It's normal. Darkam, the derech is to touch. Or it means darkam, that it should come out liga bo. Darkam could mean it's normal. We're gonna talk about that, so that's why I'm saying this shiur, that's why I'm saying that we'll talk about that. Let me talk, trust me. הכל יתבאר, תאמין לי, אני מכין, ואני מלמד, ואני יודע מה שאני מדבר. I know what I'm talking... Wait, we're gonna talk about shivah nekiyim, we're gonna talk about that. So again, עוד פעם. לפי שדרכם ליגע בו. Now the truth is, I had a shtikel a diyuk. There's two ways how we can learn darko ligabo. Either darko is, kacha ragil to touch, kacha zeh haderech to touch. Or darko is, the pshat is, l'maaseh, it happens. The derech is that they can't stop from touching. You live in a house, you touch somebody. I had a shtikel diyuk. Why do you need darko ligabo and not darka ligabahem? Why does it have to be... [unclear] ... Yep. Yep. Why do you need darko ligabo? What's wrong if היה כתוב דרכה ליגע בהם? You made this diyuk? It's in the Beis Yosef. So what does Beis Yosef say? So what, what, what? Yes, it's a kashya. What does he answer? Aha, he means stam he wants to steer the Leshonos. So you... says that you have to check the husband if there's nothing on it, of course, obvious, because if you check it, how is he going to say that the blood came to her if she's touching but there's nothing on it? But he doesn't directly ask it as a... but you see that the diyuk halashon. Okay, all right. Lama tzarich lihyot that they're touching her, v'lo she's touching them. She'eilah tovah. We're gonna get back to this, don't worry. So again, k'sheim, diyuk rishon, k'sheim. Ha'im ha-kesheim ze rak dimyon, o ha-kesheim ze halachah, mamash, b'tolachot? יש דיון בזה. יש דיון בפוסקים, נדבר על זה. Kach toleh bivno uv'ba'alo, im nis'asku biksamo yesh בהם מכה, lefi shedarkam liga bo. Now, yesh בהם מכה is interesting. Halachah is by bo. By bo there's halachah if hayah makah v'nitrapah, v'shayach ligaleach. Makah כתוב בהלכה, כתוב בהלכה, תולין בו. Ha'im gam ken b'makah shebivno zo oto halachah? כתוב מכה, אבל לא כתוב את הנקודה השנייה. בשולחן ערוך כתוב, אצל בה כתוב, אם יש מכה ודרכה להתגלע, אפילו נתרפא. If it's the same halachah, v'zeh diyun bahalachah, baposkim, v'zeh talui b'k'sheim. If it's k'sheim, so therefore he doesn't have to be chozer.

We need to go back on all the dinim shebeba. מה שיש בבה, אז יש גם בבנה ובעלה. אבל אם הכשם זה רק מושל ונמשל, so maybe, no, make should have said it. And the fact that he doesn't say it, so maybe you're not toleh. You're not toleh b'makeh, right? אם זה נתרפא, ושייך לגלות. Why? What would be the chiluk? If you're toleh בה, if you're toleh בה, and there's a makeh, and it could come from her because maybe it's scratches, so maybe he also scratched it. But only she—only women scratch makos, only women. Why should it be a chiluk? למה יש חילוק? ... Come on, let's go, yeah? You listening? You listening? So what's the pshat? בה, right? It's the same by her, but it's maybe not. אולי זה לא אותו הלכה. שייך שבה, אפילו מכה שנתרפא. So למה יהיה חילוק? What's taka the emes hachiluk? ... Im so, ... okay. אבל אם לומדים, אם לא לומדים, לא אותו הלכה. שייך שבה, תולה במכה שנתרפא, ובבעלה לא תולין. אז למה באמת לא תולים? למה לא, למה לא, למה לא תולים? מחילוק. אוקיי. Huh? There's halacha by ba. I'll just repeat it. There's not just a ba is the halacha by maka she'nitrapa. No, no, when there's— no, that's something else. Let's say there's a maka by her, the halacha, the previous halacha says. So even if it healed, maybe, maybe it's scratched. What about by then? So, ... יש דיון במחלוקת, זה מחלוקת אחרונים. Or no, it's different. So, motzi dam. So the question is why. Huh? No, that's something else. Darka liga ba means that they're touching her. That's something else. We're going on the maka. What type— no, no, darka liga ba means they touched the woman. We don't care about the maka. The question more is that they touch her. There's a kesher. They touch her. But the question is what type of maka are we talking about? It's mashma dafka maka sheyesh maka, or k'sheim migaleli, shezeh oto halachos, machlokes. Right. Im zo oto halacha shel... Right, no. K'sheim could mean like this: k'sheim sheyesh halacha shel tliya פה, gam yesh halacha shel tliya פה. So he got yon. K'mo sheyecholim lachshov shezeh mimena, yecholim lachshov shezeh mehabaal u'mehaben. Or k'sheim zo oto halacha, k'sheim yesh din kacha, zo oto dinim sheyesh bebaala. K'sheim, יש בו עומד במילה הזאת, או אתה אומר סתם, יש זה ויש זה וגם זה. K'sheim יכול להיות רק וו, וו. אותם אתרים נמצאים גם בבעל. זאת אומרת, כל הפרטים אתה צריך ללמוד ממנה ולהביא אותם גם לבעל. או הכְּשֵׁם זה רק דמיון, כמו שיש הלכה של קריאה פה, יהיה דוגמה. או שכל האתרים באה, או שיש גם דמיון, אבל הוא פחות. וזה דמיון במחלוקת הראשונים. אז I'm asking, let's say it's true, נגיד שזה אמת, למה באמת זה ככה? Why? אם זה סברה שיכול להיגלה, אז יכול להיגלה. What's the difference? Why should there be a difference? Okay. Now, עכשיו יש משהו, באמת צריכים לעיין בשולחן ערוך, נפלא ונראה. הרמ"א comes and gives a case. הרמ"א says, אבל אם היו עסוקים בדם, ולנינצו בהם דם, אין תולין בהם, אלא אם כן היו עסוקים בדבר. Okay, we'll learn this in a minute. הגה: והוא הדין אם שחטו במיתה, אם נשים שיש להן מכות בגופן, תולין בהם כמוי בבנו בבעלה, כמוי. אז הרמ"א...

אילו פס מחדיש. ... מחדיש חידוש מעל מה שכתוב במחבר, right? לכאורה, right? כאילו דמחבר ... כתב. זה גמרא מפורשת. It's before Gemara. Let's take a look at the... It's a Mishnah. כשם שתולה בו בנא, זה משנה. והוא הדין, ה... דנקט בשעתו פוסק בנא ובעלה, היינו משום דאילו מסתמא דארקין לגא בו, וכך כותב בדרישה. You mean the last case of nashim, okay. So the shayla is the mechaber. Does the mechaber hold the same thing, or the mechaber doesn't hold? So he's saying maybe the Rema is just adding, maybe. ... Good question. It's a very good question. We're talking about it. You know this is actually a kasha, right? Okay, we're gonna talk. I told you, rov rubam shel ha-kushyos, ... so just be patient. סבלנות, סבלנות. עכשיו ככה. עוד פעם. יש הלכה של נשים שוכבות יחד. Said, ... it's a case. Mechaber lomed. Why? ... I said Gemara. It's in the Rishonim. It's a case. The Mordechai, I'm saying it's luba b'poskim. It's famous. So the Shach explains, because it's davar pashut, v'hu hadin, it's so pashut, v'hu hadin. V'ha d'naka b'shaas haposkim, beno. Ah, b'shaas haposkim, katuv rak beno ba'alah? Hainu mishum d'eilu mistama darkan ligabo. ... No. The Beis Yosef held, if it says beno ba'alah b'shaas haGemara, אז בנו ובעלה דווקא. But by then, even if there's no maka, the chiddush is over here. Since there is a maka here, we're going to be medameh. By beno and ba'alah, even if there's no maka. No, ... b'ktanim. Oh well, whatever it is, they also have a reason. It's not a first Gemara. It's a Rishonim. The Rishonim, katuv v'ta'amu, ... asarah ... she'eilah hi, yecholim l'hage. ... Shach says it's a geoni. Right? The Shach makes it into a davar higioni. ... No, it's a machlokes the Mechaber and Rama, and the Mechaber is being medayek. It says in the Gemara, beno ba'alah. It doesn't say nashim hashochvos ima. Just like a cold, look at that. ... Let's open a little bit so we can get some fresh air, a little tiny drop. Yes. ... Okay. ... Ah, now you see, you're stealing the ... גונבים לי, תן לי לדבר, בבקשה. ... אני אדבר על כל, אני אדבר על ... אני אדבר. Okay. בוא נדייק. מה הלכה כשיש בת בבית, והיא כבר זמן אורח, she's already ... and she sits on her mother's bed. She sits, she sits on her mother's bed. It's possible. ... כמו נשים, right? ... נשים שיש להן מכות בגופן, תולה בהן, כמוי בבנה.

Right? Because the whole thing with shocheves is that they're on the bed. Otherwise, why are they on her bed? So, lul yif, if you had a girl that's on the bed, because she sits on her mother's bed, would be the same halacha. ... Why is it talking about makos? What about vestes? ... You didn't destroy it, so you're not chayav arba'im v'chamishah. Okay, you have to listen good. So that's my diyuk, l'choira. But before I even get to this diyuk, that's only if I hold the mechaber holds the Rama. Maybe the mechaber doesn't hold the Rama. Maybe the fact that the mechaber doesn't bring the case of the Rama, so he doesn't hold of the story of nashim shocheves. So first of all, I have to know if the mechaber holds of nashim shocheves, and then I have to be medameh a girl on the bed ... bat al hamitah kemo nashim shochvot yachad. Why is it written makot? It could have vestes. It could have vestes. You think of something interesting. ... It could be. They're sleeping together. So you can come and say it's going to be on the bed. Girl sits on the bed. Psh, chaveis vos. Yeah. Unless the pshat is it's the first time, she didn't know, she didn't expect it to come. Psh, psh, psh, psh. Unless the darka lishkav, maybe, eina chanami. Maybe if the girl in the house, the derech is to climb into her mother's bed to go to sleep, which is usually not shchiach. Usually, a 13-year-old girl is not going to climb into her mother's bed to go to sleep. But eina chanami. But stam biglal shem yoshvot, kol hamagia shezeh chuk. Shochvot yachad. עכשיו אני רוצה לדייק עוד נקודה. בדרך כלל, נשים השוכבות יחד נזהרות ללבוש משהו לשמור על הבסת. No woman is going to sleep together with other women knowing that she might have a period. They take begadim lishmor. Makeh shivah gufan is more possible. Or shezeh metziuti, vehu hadin vestes. This is more common, that the makeh. How many women are going to let blood be left over on the bed when they're sleeping with other people? It's just a factual. It's not common to think. זה לא רגיל. היא ישנה יחד. היא מתביישת. היא מתביישת, so she'll clean it. She'll make sure it doesn't happen. Maka happened. She has a wound. She has a wound, got, got red, right? Scraped, and then got bled. So yecholim lagid, what, the investors? I will say, yoter shachiach, say yoter shachiach. U'pshat, באמת, אי אפשר לחשוש על vestes. There's no reason to be choshesh for vestes, because they're clean. People are gonna wear things to protect them. It's not gonna sleep together and have periods. It's not what they're gonna do. I'm gonna do that. So why didn't you ask? One to ask who? When you see the stain. The nashim. Let's ask the nashim. You have to know that by maka also, no? You have to know that there's a makah; they can't be stam. That's a good question. You know, he's asking a good question, and I want to answer that. Ask. Ask. He's asking a good question. You know what he's asking? I was thinking about it this morning on the bus. What would happen if you walked over to the girl, the girl of the house, the nashim that are on the bed, tell me, did you have your period? So even the pshat is they're not around. I mean, the Gemara has to give a case where they're not there to ask. What about a makah? Or the pshat is maybe they're not ne'emon, because they're gonna come and say it's not my vest. They're embarrassed.

Maybe, I was thinking in this halacha, why don't we come and talk about the daughter? Nashim ha-shochves yachad, we talk about the makah. Because could be they're going to come and say, Of course it's not from me. No one's going to say it's from me. But the makah, we can identify who it's from. Let me just say it over again. Everybody, I want to hear what was said. He asked a good... I was thinking about it this morning. It doesn't bring bas. Bas is not a story here, and then today's acharonim talk about bas. They start talking about, daughter on the bed, she sat down. So I start asking, how come it's talked about in Shulchan Aruch? That's my job, to figure out. Second of all, why are we talking about makas v'lo vestes? So the truth is, in makas, we know where the makah comes from because we'll know where it comes from, because the husband will admit he has a makah. By vestes, the woman is not going to admit. It's something you don't know if you could trust her to admit. They'll say, No, it's not from me. I don't know. That's why I was clarifying. That's my shaila. And if they say yes, I don't know. Why do they have to say anything? You can tell by the clothes she wears, like you see in other instances. But that question only rises— Maybe it happened the first time. Maybe it just happened. That question rises only for the chiluk that we're making, that they talked about... Makkos is because, because either we're talking about Makkos because nida is pashut. I don't need to talk to you to tell you about nida. That's the question before. Why did the Rama bring about the Makkos? Makkos is more of a common, because by nida no one's going to come to that. But on the other side, we can say that we're talking about Makkos because it's pashut about nida that she can be tovel in somebody else's nida. Right. So I'm telling you Makkos because it's pashut to learn nida. Makkos is less so. Only on the other side that I cannot learn about nida, or why I cannot learn about nida, because nobody will come. No, that's what I'm saying. I'm clarifying. On the other side, you cannot say this. It's two ways of learning. Either the pshat is nida is pashut, you need tovel in nida, or the pshat is that by nida maybe there's no identification where it's from. You have to start with where it's from. That's the reason why I can be tovel nida. That's the thing. I can be tovel nida because nobody... Okay, that's it, that's it. Okay, you got it, havanta? Yeah. Come, shkoyach, I'll repeat it, come, I'll repeat it. I said like this. Again, what I do is I chew up the Shulchan Aruch. I'm chewing it up. I'm chewing it up. You saw the Megillah thing? It's the same thing. I take the halachos and I try to go further, one step further. Maybe we can see this angle, that angle. Okay? You know, medabrim al bat is a lo nimtza bo. Medabrim al vestes shel habat. Why doesn't the Shulchan Aruch talk about vestes at all? Why talk about periods? Why are we talking about makos? They're sleeping with women and women have vestes. What happened to that? I want to say two things. One thing is, because maybe vestes is pashut. Why do you give me tolin vestes? What's the shaylah? Of course, because if we've been not sleeping together, it's pashut, right? Or the pshat is, you need to know for sure that there's a maka motzi dam. By vestes, you don't have that because, well, they're admitting. It's eino chanami. If they're admitting, it's davar pashut, maybe. But to be toleh b'makah, you have to know that it's there. By makah, you know it's there. By vestes, you don't even know it's there. It might be that they had vestes. It might be that they had periods. Sheyesh lah makas b'gufo is the taich that we know that they have. We know that they have. Mashenkein by vestes, maybe it's maybe she had a vest. Maybe her vest is not good enough. Why not taka? Why not? So we spoke about this. Me and Rafi had this out, that could be, kol zman you don't have a mekor for the dam, you can't be toleh. And just because a woman is a woman that can have vestes doesn't mean that there's a mekor for the dam. Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Just because she could have doesn't mean. It's a little bit iffy, because what happens if...

Says it's in my vest time, so we know that it's in her vest time. But again, it's not definite. It's not there. We didn't see it. It's not lefaneinu. It's supposed to still come. All right, you're playing a little bit. I have a hold of from halachos. I have a hold of from halachah. Now before we get to my mahalach, which will answer the kashya and the chiluk between the maka that's nitrapa, not nitrapeh, lefi shedarkah ligabo, not pshat she's going to touch them, I'm going to answer all this. Maybe. I'm saying, it lomdus. But first let's gribble a little more on the halachah l'maaseh. Where is the makah found? It doesn't say. So again, if to go back to the previous halachos maybe, what happens if it's al bsarah? Remember we spoke about makas al bsarah. What happens then? Not makah al bsarah, sorry, some al bsarah. She's over bshuk shel tabachim. Doesn't good, right? It's not good. So the Sederi Taharah, Sederi Taharah comes along and says, if it's only al bsarah, means bsheim deprishah, you could still be toleh. Still be toleh. But for that you would need that it should be on them also. But if it's nimtza on chalukah, even if it's not on them. Let's see the din of Shulchan Aruch. Eina toila bahem. That's only when it's al bsarah, right? But when it's al chalukah, even if it's not, even if it's not bahem. There's a chiluk between al bsarah and al chalukah, right? Chavis daas. Daas is cholek, and he says no. Just like the other klios, we don't say al bsarah, right? If the kesem is al bsarah, we don't say the kliah. So here too it's the same thing. It's not the chiluk. I mean, there's a kliah, and the kliah's the halachah is we don't say when it's al bsarah. So why is the kliah here different? Why is the kliah here different? Go ahead, read the Seder Taharah. Go ahead, go ahead. Oh, Torah. So which is different. It's a chiluk. Bderech klal, kesheyesh sheyalkah bshuk shel tabachim, tabachim, what happens? Keshe'avrah bshuk shel tabachim, what happens? Al bsarah she's still tamei. Go ahead. But in a case where it's found in blood, ... but ... al chalukah. No. And it's better. No, it's not. No, yad. Excuse me, lo yad. Chavis daas says no. If it's not al lehem, or even if it is al lehem, it doesn't make a difference, al bsarah we never say. By shuk shel tabachim, when it's al basar, what do we say? Doesn't work. So I would say maybe, maybe, maybe. What would be the din over here, al basar, what would we say? If we find the kesem al basar, right, would it still be tahor, says the Seder Taharah. Aval b'shuk shel tabachim, not. So I was thinking maybe the taich is— I hear you're sleeping. Yeah, I mean, aval b'shuk shel tabachim, I mean, she walked around undressed. What happened exactly? She walking the street. Who says it? Yeah, I'm saying maybe. No, she's sleeping in her— she's not dressed. She touches her children, I don't know, it could happen. These things could happen. Yep. She'ein kein b'shuk shel tabachim, walking the street, you're probably wearing a headscarf, you know, the old neze. Paranjat. They used to wear the paranjah, used to wear the paranjah, right? Garbayim shechorot kemo bimei ha'sharim. Make them up, make them up. Lo yoshen tov. Okay. Lo yoshen tov. B'kitzur, yeah. So the shailah is, maybe it's a metziusdik thing. Maybe, maybe it's a—

Different type of tevilah. I'll tell you what's going through my mind, you ready? Cooking. There's a halacha of tabach, shuk shel tabachim. I told you by shuk shel tabachim it has to be nitaz, it has to be... That tevilah is not the tevilah of sheyesh li b'ma litlos. It's not a din that I can be tovel on that. It's a tevilah that I have a cheshbon where the blood comes from. She went by tabachim, so it makes sense, it's mistavra. There, mistavra fits in. When it's mistavra, so it has to be davar shemistavra. Al basar is not mistavra. But then there's a different type of tevilah. There's a tevilah of makkeh. The tevilah of makkeh is a din tevilah. Chazal gave it a halacha, it can be tovel. The chiddush is k'shem, the same din tevilah b'makkah, not the sevara dike din tevilah. Not the sevara dike din tevilah. The tevilah of makkah, she has it by banah bayis also, and not because she touches them. And ki'ilu mistavra that she touches them, it'll get dirty. No. No, I'm not, I'm not finished to tell you the why yet. I just want to tell you, and that's why the mechaber doesn't bring nashim shechichos, because by nashim shechichos yachad, it's just a sevara dikah, clear like, like, like tabach. I didn't say it's a ma, but it's not her maka. Yes, it is. It's like her maka. There is a maka here to be toleh on. Nashim shechichos, then the pshat is only because she's grabbed and slept together with them. I know, but I'm not finished yet. You see, you're not letting me finish. What you're doing is you're starting to hak me with pratim before I finish my yesod. Yeah. What I'm saying is like this. There's a sugya called tabachim. Over b'shuk shel tabachim. Over b'shuk shel tabachim is, there's a sevara where the dam is coming from. We have an explanation to the dam. Maka is not an explanation to the dam. Maka is the pshat, you could come and say that the dam is coming. No, we don't explain, but it could be, and we're saying it's from the maka. When you have a dam, yeah, when you have dam shenisrap, the dam shenisrap. Mai, it could, it's possible, yeah, but it doesn't really explain. An explanation doesn't explain why the dam is here. You have to come and say, she scratched herself. It was nisrap. It was nisrap. But the pshat is, but you have a din to come and say at least it's possible to come from there. I can't explain that it comes from there. I can't say, oh, this is probably. When I went b'shuk shel tabachim, this is probably. It's a possibility. It's a possibility. Not possible, it's a possibility. But that's not why I'm coming to say. I'm coming to say, one says a makah, Chazal say you don't say it's from the makah. K'shein, there's a special halacha, k'shein shetoleh bo. Notice he doesn't say b'makaso. What's the lashon? K'shein shetoleh bo. What does bo mean? What about bo b'makaso? Talk about her makah, no? There are other examples. ... bam means in all the dinim. It's kolel everything. The makas would be just dafka that. What does the word bo mean? I don't understand. What does bo mean? Dinim. Makah. Bo with a mapik. Bo. B'makah shelah with a mapik. It's not only makah.

In herself. What is ba? What is ba? No, ba means her, I know, but what do you mean by her? Her what? All the me'urin can happen to her, and she can assume that it came from there. Those same me'urin that happened to her husband, she could also say came. Is that true? Because he only talks about, kach toleh b'nisasku b'ksamim, o yesh bahem makah. That's the seifa. Is that the only cases? What about shuk shel tabachim? You see, don't get gone. He doesn't say kegon, for example. He brings the cases. O, shh, sha. O yesh bahem makah, okay. Aval im hayu asukin b'dam, v'lo nimtza bahem dam, eina toleh bahem. So there's a chiluk between nisasku b'ksamim, o yesh bahem makah, right, to aval im hayu asukin b'dam. What's the difference between asukin b'dam and nisasku b'ksamim? Same thing. So what is it? So what's the chiluk? Kach toleh b'binah. So I'm asking you, aval l'maaseh he says a difference: k'sheim shetoleh bah, kach toleh b'bnah b'baal misasku b'ksamim yesh bahem makah. Aval im hayu asukin b'dam— But he gives you a what's-name, v'lo nimtza bahem dam. Again, shh, again. Aval im hayu asukin b'dam v'lo nimtza bahem dam. Different case already. I'm asking you, by nisasku b'ksamim is only when you find dam bahem? Again, anything. K'sheim shetoleh... The words are that if they're oskin b'dam, but I'm saying, is there a reason to be mechalek if they were oskin with red paint? I don't know, but I'm asking you. I want a halacha. Read me what it says here. Nisasku b'ksamim means what, with matza lahem dam or without matza lahem dam? Seems like there's no chiluk. So it's a peirush, aval—it's a peirush, right? So I'm asking you a different question. What about by makah? Do you have to go there and look and find dam on the makah? Yeah, do you have to find dam coming from the makah? So that's the shailah in the poskim, right? So in other words, if you learn that you have to have that the dam is there — sha, sha, you have to let me talk — if you learn that the dam is there, you have to find the dam by amdem. So by makah, you have to find the dam? It depends on how you learn the case. So let's say, forget about the safek of it. What about the nimtza בהם דם? Forget about the safek. You see, we're talking about two things. It's nisrapeh, so should we be choshesh that it's going to be nitgaleh? That's one part of the nekudah, okay? And there's another part. What about the sugya of nimtza aleihem dam? So by kesamim we have it. What about by makos? There's such a sugya. So you're putting it together. You're saying if it's bleeding now, that's called nimtza בהם דם. It's a one way of saying those words, but it's not necessarily what it means. That's what it means, right? So I'm asking you, do you need by a makah also, also, that you should find dam there? On the tzad that you need, by what should call it, on the tzad that you need, aval im hayu asukin b'dam, you need that it should be dam there. What about makah? Do you need that there should be dam there? Well, just the fact that there's a makah is good enough. Maybe it's only by asukin b'dam. Okay, I can't have any questions. Do you need it? Again. K'sheim shetoivel bah, kach toivel bivnah b'ba'alah. In nis'asku b'ksam, oy im yesh bah makah. Now, aval im hoyah asukin b'dam — so you're saying it's the same thing as nis'asku b'ksam, which l'choira it is; I don't see a difference — but it's v'lo nimtza bah dam. You didn't find dam. So what about makah? Makah is considered like you found dam. A makah sh'einah trafah is like you found dam or you didn't find dam. So you're saying maybe it's like you found dam. That's what you want to ta'ina? Maybe not. Forget about the she'eilah of nisrapeh, maybe it'll be megaleh and then... Separate from that. The way they explain nimtza, they say you don't have to find it now. If we knew at one point there was, that's already good enough to say that's... Even by ksamim. Even by nis... If I knew at one point it was an open makor, even though now it's healed, I don't care if it can be megaleh or not. I know at one point there was blood there; I could say it came from that one time. So let me ask you a question: what happens if it was nisrapeh before tashmish? Before tashmish.

Master, would that be called nimtza leadam? The nimtza leadam is a second sugya. Right, there's two shailos. There's one shaila is maybe it's going to be nitgaleh, reopened, that one time, right. But you have to know the nimtza leadam. So you're saying by makka it's never a sugya of nimtza leadam, because that's what it is mimeila. Because that's mimeila. I just wanted to be clear that that's how you learn. Again. What? No. Why? Okay, od paam. Yeah? So I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. ... latim et ze, kemo k'shenichnasim l'toch makolet shel ... naalayim. Yes, elef naalayim, but tzrichim latim, you know, tzrichim latim et hanaalayim l... haregel. Okay, you ready? Elim kein, haya asukim b'davar shedarko lintos. Nimtza lagitso, od paam, lo nachzor al hasvara. Yesh shtei dinim shel tliya. Yesh tliya, svara. הוי עסוקין בדבר שדעתו לינטות. סברא. סברא. סברא. אלמא כי הוי עסוקין בדבר שדעתו לינטות. סברא. זה נמצא להם? No. So why don't you need a mekor for the dam? שש... עכשיו, בלי שום הערות, קושיות, מה שאתה... Quiet. סְפוֹנְלֶס פַּקוֹיסט. פולן פַּקוֹיסט, okay? שקט בבקשה. Is that it? More or less. No. It's Russian. It is Russian. No. It's plain Rosh. Nothing to do with... פולן פַּקוֹיסט. שש still. All right? דעתו לינטות, yeah? הא אמרו, אם זה על הבן, על האבא לא אמרו. So what's the shayla? Where is the mekor? Why is it different? למה פה אני כן צריך, ופה אני לא צריך? There's two types of tliya. There's tliya sevara. Makes sense. אם הבעל הוא שוחט... סברה היא שעל האיש יכול למצוא. אפילו אין לנו מקור לדם. אפילו אין לנו מקור לדם. זה לא דין במי אני תולה, אלא בדם שעליה יש לי סברא מאיפה זה בא. לפי שדרכו, he says, כגון שחיטה. Yeah, shechita. דרכה לינטז. I guess so. That's the story, right? Otherwise, it was דרכה לינטז. What does it help? Unless you learn דרכה לינטז, you know for sure there was blood on him, maybe. Right, that's what I thought. I thought even if he thinks that there isn't, there probably is. Even so. Even so. Even so. We don't need to find the blood. What we need to find is the sevara, what happened. Where is the blood from? We have a cheshbon. יש לנו חשבון טוב. נגיד כמו אתה. I like what you said better. Your pshat is יותר ברור, okay? דרכה לינטז.

So the pshat is, we know where the blood is, but we don't see the blood. Who cares? There's a svara. That din tliyah is more on the blood that we find, to explain it, lazbir et zeh, meili cholim latir. Then there's a type of tliyah which isn't to explain the blood. It's to be toleh on that. We have a makor. I'm not saying, does it have to be mistaber? No, but I could say it's from this. That's a different din tliyah. So the svara is k'sheim that there's a din tliyah b'makkah, so there's another halacha that b'no and ba'alah, since they're always touching her, since they're always touching her, so it remains like bo. Since b'no u'ba'alah is her family, so to speak, so we have another din tliyah. Nashim shochvois, not her, but there's a svara. It's like a tabachin. Makes sense, what happened. That's not what he's talking about. That's why he doesn't bring it. The Mechaber learned k'sheim. It's a moiridig vort. The Mechaber learns it's k'sheim. I don't mean it in a literal sense. It's her house. It's an extension of her. That's why he doesn't say that she'll touch them. It's not about— they're touching her the whole day. We could say that they touch, and therefore, mistama the blood went from here to here. Who says you need that? Who says you need that? But what you do need now is, you need a mekor for the blood, because it's not a sevara. It's not about a sevara that the blood came from them. We have to know that they have a makor. Later, later, later. You know, just as a mashal, I'll give you a mashal, yeah? When one person gets a stomach virus in the house, the whole family gets a stomach virus. Why? It's in the family. It's here. Huh? Since there's a halacha that you can be toleh bah, this is called bah because she's around her children the whole night. She's around her husband the whole night. That's called bah. Which lashon? Well, which lashon is like what? It says, k'sheim shetoleh bah. Yeah, k'darka liga bah, memeila, if they had a virus, im hayah lahem eizeh choli, as kulam hayu mekablim et zeh. If we would say she touches them, you know what we're saying? Memeila the blood probably came from them. I don't care. We don't want to say that. We want to say the blood exists in the house. And she's connected because they're touching her. Not that memeila she's going to get the blood. It's exist, and that's called bo. That is called bo. That's called bo. Later, later, everybody, later. Let me talk now for the next 15 minutes. That's called bo. K'sheim shetovel bo. That's... so beautiful. ... Very good. Very good. You understand halacha. There's a din shetovelim bo, memeila tovelim by her extension, that they're around her all day. But you have to make sure that it's a makah. Aval im hayu asukin b'dam v'lo nimtza bahem dam, so you don't have the makor. But tliyah, tliyah is a different halacha, meaning sevaradikah tliyah is a different halacha. Lefi zeh, do I need mamash bno, bno katan? Maybe you don't need bno katan. Do I need mamash any woman who is around her children, so she's around her children, I have to mamash, I take care of them? Then you have to explain where the blood, probably I held the baby a whole day. You might not need that. As long as it's her and her extended family, and she's around her family all day, that's already good enough. K'sheim.

And therefore you won't need benogadol, benokat. With this, I want to ta'ina that the chiluk by tabachim, halacha is we don't say al b'saro. Yeah? Why not? Because the sevara is not that it should be al b'saro, and it's all about the sevara. It's not more than the sevara. Ma she'ein kein the din kliya, Chacham gave a heter; meileh it can be even al b'saro also. The din kliya, the Chacham gave even al b'saro. You have a makom to be toleh. Now, what happens by a makach shenisrapa? So the sho'el of the Chasam Sofer, he's called ha-sho'el; that's what the Acharonim identify him, the sho'el in the Chasam Sofer. He held that you can't be toleh. Chasam Sofer was docheh dvarav. Yeah? Zeh shesha'al the Chasam Sofer. Ha-sho'el shesha'al the Chasam Sofer, רוצה להגיד שמקח... and that's the kushya. Yes, makach shenisrapa, not makach shenisrapa. Okay. Mah esbam machlokes? Esbam machlokes, kach, zeh a hesber. Do you need makach shenisrapa, right? So if you learn that it's the sevara dika tliya, so once it's makach shenisrapa, so the sevara is not there anymore. Maybe, maybe. Ma she'ein kein if it's the din makach that you have a halacha to be toleh on, which is what we learned in the halacha of ba... Maybe we'll have by beno so. The nidon is, how do you learn? Are we learning it's like tabachim, like tabachim sefer? It's a ... I mean, it's מסתבר, it's מסתבר that's where it comes from. You can mamash trace back the blood. I want to clarify: what happens if a child has nosebleed? Child has nosebleed, yeah, and she lays on the bed, which means it didn't come through you touching her. It came from the bed. In other words, on the bed. So I want to know if the din of maka b'bnah is dafka in the ligabo, or the din of maka b'bnah is even when it's not, it has nothing to do with liga, because the Shulchan Aruch says, darkim liga. The Shulchan Aruch says that it's darkim liga. So maybe, hilyas, maybe only if it's such a—there was contact through the bed also. So vestes, they're saying, מסתמא yeah, right? So I said, I don't know, the Shulchan Aruch didn't talk about it. So maybe it's only darkim liga, right? But if you learn that the whole sugya, it's not darkim liga in literally liga. The darkim liga is attached, that they're around her, it's just like an extension of her. You could be toleh also. Huh? That's what I'm telling you. There's not enough time. You have to learn this, I have to finish. That's it. Either the sevara is darkei liga, so the pshat is any connection to liga could be called ba mimena. Aval kesem shenimtza al ha-mita, there's nothing to do with liga. But if it's darkei liga b'mita, but that's not what it says though. I'm saying, so you say, and a Chanami, דין darkei liga b'mita, yeah? Or the pshat is that darkei liga is not literally darkei liga. Darkei liga means they're around. Here, what's the nafka mina? I'll tell you the nafka mina. She's a nida. She's a nida, so the posek can bring down, and I don't know where the mekor is, because it bothers me it's not in Shulchan Aruch, rather. B'ba'alah, maybe she's a nida. How come the Shulchan Aruch doesn't talk about it? So the posek can talk about it. And a Chanami, b'zman nidda, it's not going to work because they don't touch. Yeah? I don't tie into something. It could happen they bump into each other. It could happen she, by mistake, they bump into each other.

What about on the bed? Let's say they're not sitting, maybe it's on the side. Maybe he swapped, he went by and you're allowed to touch the bed? Are you allowed to touch your wife's bed when she's in niddah? And notice, sometimes you're cleaning the room, you're passing by, right? Could be you could have blood on your hand and you pass by, you touched her bed. Now you see the difference how you learn Shulchan Aruch? You see what I'm doing? Pushing. Let's understand one step further. What do you mean by liga? If you meant liga means they're touching all day, darkim all day they're touching. But if the pshat is darkim liga, which is because they're around each other all day, we don't mean literally they're going to touch and malea heat, bleeding, malea. They're close, they're around all day. Says a Chanami, maybe she's a nida, that there is a not to touch, okay. What about the bed? What about the bed? Look at the poskim, lach. They don't talk about this. Go ahead, you look at your Shevet HaLevi and your Avnei Shoham and your Mareches HaShulchan and Mareches this one, and maybe nida, nida, you're not going to find it. If you learn Shulchan Aruch and you disagree, it's a beautiful shaila. Yeah, no, I know you're not. I know you're allowed to. What happens if there's blood on the side of the bed and maybe it comes from her husband, you know, he's bleeding, the nose bleed. Could you be toleh? Could you be toleh? This is what I want a taino be. If the tliyah is that we have a sevara where it comes from, then eino chanami, b'mei nida, the sevara that it's not coming from her. You're not gonna send her to bed. What are the chances that you're gonna pass by and touch her thing? Shayach. It's a small apartment, yeah? Small apartment. You're living in a one-bedroom apartment. You're walking around all day, and then your brother do have nosebleeds, so she's a nidah. So what? So what? Are you still toleh? No. Are you still toleh b'ba'alah? So this is the nafka mina. If the pshat is there's halacha of toleh b'ivnah because it's ba, there's a makah hanimtza b'bayis, so to speak. Let's use that lashon. It's a makah hanimtza b'bayis, so eino chanami, it could be toleh. But if the pshat is like tabachim, so you would have to come and have a cheshbon that it's like tabachim takkeh. Benogadol, she doesn't touch her older son, but she could. Benogadol, ila noga b'benogadol. Birgilus, ila noga. Ma zeh ila noga? ... And if a child has a makah, even if he's 13, 14, it's a difference. There's a makah that's around her. So k'sheim shetoleh bo... Katavna, mashen kein, k'shenoshim shochvos yachad, k'shenoshim shochvos yachad, and this is what I want to ta'ina, moideh k'var. I asked you a kasha: lamah medabrim al ha'makkeh, v'lo medabrim al ha'vest? Lo medabrim al ha'vest. Vest, rabosai, is a sevara tovah ad me'od that where it could be coming from. But to make it that it should be a makkeh around her, you need that the noshim around her have a makkeh. If it's to find where the blood comes from, vest is gevaldige. That's the best explanation, is vest. Noshim shochvos yachad is vest. But if it's not about the vest, it's about there's a makah nimtza b'svivah, and that's why this Ramo is here. Ramo is saying like this: you're coming and saying, b'no bailah, and that's called what? Makah nimtza etzlah, makah nimtza b'veisah. As I can tell you by noshim, it's the same thing if the mishochvos yachad, it's around her. It's a clear b'makah.

It's a sugya of tliya b'makom. You're not looking for a tliya. In Hilchos tliya, I mean, if they come and they say that there's a vest, what's there to talk about? Pirush, ze tliya b'makom. Ze sugya shel makel misaviv lah. Vadai, im tolin b'vestes. Of course you're tolin b'vestes. Why shouldn't you be tolin b'vestes? If you know there's a vest, so you tolin b'vestes. Of course you tolin b'vestes. You can't get more svara where it comes from. That's a svara where there's dam. You know where there's dam is? There's dam is here. See, tolin b'makom is less. It's pachot mi-tliya shel af maha dam. It's a svara. Im yesh makom b'svivah, az yecholim l'hagid shezeh. That's why we don't talk about bita. We're not discussing bita. It's vestes. Bita's vestes. Of course if there's a bas around and she has a vest, well, what do you want? Of course, maybe it might be the mother. It might be the daughter. It might be the daughter, huh? I know you thought it's less. I don't think so. That's a chiddush I'm telling you. The vest alef and hei, but let's ask. That's why we start the shiur with, let's ask. Because avada we could ask and then it's finished. The chiddush is the makos is mehech teisa, because the whole yesod of makos is mehech teisa. But there's a din of makel l'faneinu, makel b'svivah. So it's ba, the Rama adds shochvos. This is about makel l'faneha, makel by her. What's called by her? Ba, mishpachto, ba b'mitaso, nashim acheros. V'ad if there's a vest that you can be toleh it on, that it's not her, it's somebody else, so what's there to talk about? Vadai you can be toleh it on somebody else. Vadai, I mean, if you have a woman that has vestes and then she's around town and you ask her, yeah, I have vestes, so what do you want? I'm saying because we don't want that it should be about that she touched them and she got it from them. I don't care about that.