Hilchos Kesamim: A Stain Found on Washed Clothing—Chazakas Baduk and Modern Washing Machines

Transcript

Chaluk shel hafshasa bimei nidasa. Chaluk is a dress, it's clothing. L'choira, it really shouldn't make a difference if it's clothing, anything that she was using bimei nidasa. For example, a sadin, a sheet. I mean, the case of dam that can be found, niddah, can be found on clothing and can be found on a sheet. L'maaseh, you look at the Rajba. They quote from the Rajba, the Acharonim, the poskim, it's sadin also. The case when it's brought, it's brought sadin too. Now the Mechaber speaks chaluk. So either chaluk is lav davka, all right, hu hadin sadin, or maybe he taka chose to say chaluk davka. I didn't see that the poskim right away say hu hadin sadin. So either it's so pashut that it's hu hadin sadin, or the pshat is chaluk and not sadin. Maybe chaluk is different. Why it should be different, we don't know yet, but maybe it's different. So that's the first ha'arah in the Shulchan Aruch: chaluk as opposed to sadin, the sheet. V'niskabes, and it got washed. V'chazarah v'lavshaso, and she went back and she wore it. Bizman shehi tehorah b'loi bedikah. Now. This actually mekores from a Mishnah. The Mishnah says, niskabeis, it becomes chazkaso baduk. So the Gemara has a shayla: is it because the kibbus itself makes it baduk? If it went through the, the machine, so to speak, it went through the cleaning, so it's clean. Or it has to do with the one that cleaned it. Since she's going to clean it, so she checks to see that it's clean. She checks to make sure that it's clean. Now, I'm saying it parve a little bit. Why am I saying it parve? Because checked to see that it's cleaned, check before, check after. It doesn't say when the checking in the Gemara. The Gemara just says, bodkasa, she checks that it's clean. What do you mean? Do you mean that she checks in advance to see if there was anything there, or does she check afterwards to make sure it's clean? Either way, these are two צדדים in the Gemara. So he's already getting the Gemara. Baruch Hashem, I taught you this. Don't trust one word I say. You know why? There's two reasons. One is because you'll never learn anything if you do. If you just repeat over what I say, so then you're no different than any other yeshiva guy that repeats over what everybody else says. So, okay. And the second reason is I'm a busy person. I don't know, could be I make mistakes too. I don't have a thousand things on my head. You think I remember exactly the way the Gemara—this is the way I remember the Gemara. So go ahead, Rafael, read me the Gemara and show me that I'm right—I mean, I'm wrong. Go ahead, no? Okay, but you hear the Mishnah? You hear what's going on? The Mishnah says it's called chazkaso baduk. And the shaila is, why is it chazakasi baduk? Either because the washing itself makes it clean, or the pshat is what? Because whoever washed it makes sure it's clean. Go ahead, read me the lashon. I clarified, is the pshat— Yeah, but I want to hear the lashon of the Gemara. Go ahead, read me the Gemara. The what, the what, what? I can't hear, what? See, that's what I wanted, that it's not clear in the Gemara what does it mean b'shaas. You see? So I was right. So he was wrong and I was right, that the word b'shaas, what do you mean? Do you mean before? You mean— it's not clear, because it could mean that they checked to see before kibus why they're washing it, or they check after kibus to make sure that they taka cleaned it. Why? Because, because, because I just told you two tzadim which make sense. You're right. So b'shaas could mean either during, meaning during doesn't mean they're not standing there. Well, the truth is, you know what it is? The word shaas is, to me, could mean during also, but the point is because of knowing what happened.

Before, because of knowing what's going to happen after, you like it better that way. However you want to learn their checking, are they checking to find what was, or are they checking to find now if it's going to be clean? Okay, now you want to know if the word shas means while they're doing it. Okay, you know what? Yes, okay, it can mean while. My point wasn't the while. My point was what for. Are they checking what was when it went into the cleaners, or are they checking after to find out what happened? The Gemara just says they're bodek b'shas. Says the Gemara, nafka mina. What's the difference if the kibbus itself makes it baduk, or it's the woman who's cleaning it that makes it baduk? Says the Gemara, if it's nimtza b'tefiros, if the kesem is found where it is sewn. So if it's for kibbus purposes, if it's for kibbus purposes, maybe it never got there. You know, it's in a hidden place, it's in the sewn, the fold. But if it's because she checks, so she'll check over there. Says the Gemara, that would be the difference. If the kesem is found in the tefiros, if it's alts the kibbus, it's not going to get there, says the Gemara. If it's because of the checking, they'll check. Ad kan haGemara. Now let's see how the Shulchan Aruch brings halacha. Cholek shalafshahsa b'meidah, v'niskabeis v'chazrah v'lafshahsoi b'zman shehi tehorah b'loi bedikah. So, im niskabeis al yedei Yisraelis, d'eino bifaneinu lish'ol, chazakah batkah. So you see right away that it's not the kibbus itself, because it wouldn't make a difference who washed it, right? If it went through the wash, then it went through the wash, and he says clearly, chazakah batkah. So you see that he's learning the pshat, which shita we pasken like, that it has to do with the one who is checking. Because we come and say that there's a chiluk of Yehudi and goy in the kibbus itself, meaning that a Yisraelis will taka do a good cleaning because they know it's nogea to kesamim. Because of what? Ah, so this is what we're going to talk about. You see, now we're paskening shailas. Now you see what I'm teaching you? I teach you how to think. Wait a minute. Everybody learns the Shulchan Aruch, yeah, he's paskening that it has to do with the chazakah of the... I said, wait a minute, I don't know, slow down. What's the proof? The proof is because you're making a din between a kibbus Yisraelis and a kibbus of a goy. First of all, right, I could tell you even more, that maybe the difference between the Yid and the goy is not even so much about batkah, not batkah, even though the Gemara makes that chiluk. Maybe it's about believing her, the next part of the halacha. V'imi bifaneinu, v'omeres shelo batkasa, toleh loimar shemetchilah hayah v'lo hayah kibbus. Maybe it has to do with nemanus. Three ways we could learn now. We could learn that what is the difference between kibbus Yisrael and kibbus goy? Kibbus Yisrael, there's a bedikah. Kibbus goy, there's no bedikah. That's the pashut pshat in the Mechaber. Or we could start saying, you know what, let's go a little deeper. Who said? Even though the lashon is clear, the lashon is that she's bodek. Chazakah batkasai b'shaat kibbus. Mashmah she's a shayach le-bedikah, right? You have shaylich, tamei mi-ma shekatuv. Aval im lo haya lashon zeh. Stam in general, the chiluk between kibbus Yisrael, I could say it has nothing to do with checking. It has to do with the way they wash it. A Yid is careful because of tznius, and I say this very vaguely. You know why I say it vaguely? I'll tell you why. We're soon going to learn that pashut it has to do with klal Yisrael caring about hilchos niddah, and therefore either she would be careful that her own clothing is clean, or she makes sure if she finds a kesem to tell her friend. Or maybe it has to do with tznius also. Even though they're very tzanua, they're very clean, goyim are dirty, you know, it doesn't make a difference, dirty, not dirty.

You know what the nafka mina would be? I'll tell you a very big nafka mina. What happens if you have a Jewish girl who has no clue of Hilchos Niddah, nothing. She doesn't know Hilchos Niddah, kesamim, she doesn't know about these things. Could we come and say that that's called yekibus Yisrael? You have your daughter doing the wash in the house. She's nine years old. She doesn't know about Hilchos Niddah. But maybe there's the nadinus to make sure that it's clean, you know, kesamim, that she knows that much, that the bleeding... Is it Hilchos Niddah that they're makpid on? Teluyi yetzir, there's no yediah of Hilchos Niddah. We won't help you. Or it has to do with certain tznius. So even a Jewish girl who doesn't know Hilchos Niddah could be called kibus Yisrael. But that's if you learn that it has to do with kibus or chazakah, right? That she's bodek and not bodek, right? Because if you learn it has to do with bodek and not bodek, if she doesn't know the halachos, it's not going to help you anything. If the shaila is bodek and not bodek, not checking bedavka, checking for kesamim is a halacha and Hilchos bedikas kesamim. But if it has to do with how clean, and that's the chiluk between a Yid and a goy, maybe even a girl who doesn't know about Hilchos Niddah could be negea too. Or the third pshat is it has to do with the ne'emonus. Could we believe them? There's three ways to make a chiluk between kibus Yisrael and kibus akum. Okay, so let's learn a little further. A little further. So the first diyuk we made was, chaluk, is it yes sadin or not sadin? Yes, sadn, we'll see. Maybe later on we'll clarify differently, maybe. The next thing we see is that it has to do with chazakah badkasai. I said it has nothing to do with the fact that it's Yisrael and goy. I saw many poskim say that the fact that it's a chiluk between Yisrael and goy is a siman that it has to do with bedikah, because if it has to do with how the kibus is, what's the chiluk? I saw this Rav Nissan Karelitz in his sefer speaks it out that way. If the shailah is what type of kibus, right? So what's the chiluk between Yisrael and goy? I would say maybe not, I don't know, maybe there is a chiluk. It has nothing to do with chazakah baduk. You could still learn there's a chiluk between Yisrael and goy because the goyim are not that clean to make sure it's clean. Mashenkein Klal Yisrael, they're clean, tzanua, they're makpid on mussar, shtei mesilos yesharim, that you have to have seder and nekius. We're a higher class cut of people. You know how many goyim wake up in the morning and they wear their old stuff from yesterday, big deal. Have it. It's a lot. It's a common thing. He says not that way. He says that if it has to do with the kibus, there wouldn't be a chiluk between a Yid and a goy. Okay. Now, let's understand, when it says v'niskabes, at what level of kibus are we talking about? Now, let's discuss this. If you learn that it has to do with chazakah baduk, meaning they check, so actually it's really irrelevant at what level of kibus they did. What kind of kibbus did they do? Chemicals, water, serious, hot water, cold water, who cares? The idea was she had her hands on it to clean it, so she checks. It has nothing to do with the type of kibbus. So, anochi nami, just says v'niskabes. Let me ask you a question. If, let's say, you have a cleaning lady, cleaning lady, and her job is not to clean. She didn't have to make the wash. Her job was to pick up the things from the floor. L'choira, the same sevara. If you learn as to cheskasai baduk, l'choira it has nothing to do with kibbus, unless, unless, maybe a woman who cleans, it's not her job to look there. Even if she picks it up from the floor, that's not her department. But if her job is to clean, so she has a reason to look because of the cleaning. So anochi nami, by a Yid, cheskasai baduk. Maybe. What do you say, Benji? It's a nice sevara? Or you hear both צדדים? You have to hold cheshbon because there's fifty chakiros like this on how to learn up this Shulchan Aruch. There's a list over here that goes on and on, showing you the different angles to understand the Shulchan Aruch, to understand what it says here.

What about any other situation where they come in contact with the clothing of the other woman? Now I'll tell you another thing. You know, we're thinking that it's on the... Who says it's on the...? Chaluk k'minah dress. Chaluk doesn't have to be on the... So let's say you have a job of a tailor. Let's say you're giving the clothing into a tailor. She's not washing it. It's not the cleaning. It's the tailor. Does that have the same halacha? So let's go through it. If it's al cheskas... maybe, maybe. Write this down. I hold a chiddush halacha. You're not going to find it in the cheating sefer called Shiurei Shevet HaLevi. You're not going to find—what's that cheating sefer's name? Ben Ish Chai. What's that cheating sefer's name? Today we're all the cheating sefarim today. Although I don't decide to learn today, finally, baruch Hashem. This you're not going to find anywhere. It's a good she'eilah. Yeah, maybe. Does it have to do with kibbus? So if it has to do with the fact that the first pshat in the Gemara, that it's cleaned, okay, so vadai it has to do with the cleaning. But if the pshat is that it has to do with chazakah—not chazakah, but it has to do with the checking, right? Cheskasai baduk. I don't know. If pshat is in every clothing they check? Who said? Who said? Now we can assume, learn, that bichlal today we never heard the checking so much. The Shach speaks about it a little bit. Today women check other people's clothing for kesamim. Those days they were very frum, very, very frum olam. You know, in Lakewood they're busy looking at everybody else's business, but not this. This I didn't find yet. Hagah, this is a Shulchan Aruch. This takke should be everybody's business. Kesamim. Look at her dress. Instead of saying, Wow, look at her nice dress, she has the newest style, look at the kesamim she has over there. That's what it says in the Shulchan Aruch. I make it up. That's what it says. It says in Shulchan Aruch that in the olden days, they used to check. Chavrisa, the women were makpid. Tell the friend that maybe she has a... When she was wearing it, they used to check? I don't know. It has to be when she's wearing... I'm asking, ein hachanami. Yeah, but usually when you wear it, she's not going to wear with ksam. It's just giving you a wild case to give you the understanding. But let's say she gets a hold of someone else's clothing. She's a tailor. Why should a tailor be—I mean, she doesn't wash it, she just tailors it. But she's looking at the clothing. So if there's a svara that they check to make sure, or it has to do with kibus, that since anyway her job is to be mekabeis it, so the checking has to do with—because anyway it's in her hands to clean. That's what I'm clarifying. I'm clarifying a shaila, a pashut shaila. When we talk about the sugya that you always check the clothing of your friend—is it stam a chazakah, that's how it's done, or the pshat has something to do with kibus, l'maaseh? You're right, so that's what I'm clarifying. I don't know. I mean, the way they made it sound was that they were makpid. I mean, you look at the poskim, in those days they were makpid. Pashut svara, I'm not saying anymore. Okay, please, please leave me alone. Please! Ah! Why are you bothering me? Now. Okay, now. Okay. V'niskabeis. Yeah? So what is v'niskabeis? Davka v'niskabeis, yeah. I was playing an interesting shaila here. When you send it to the cleaners, do they check afterwards? I don't think they anyway check afterwards. Bichlal they don't check after. Just because you're your guest doesn't mean we give you special privileges. You're not getting the pieces like everybody else. Everybody gets the same. Like the Yashan gets the chadash; it's the same treatment. It says, Chadash meyashan teitziu. Okay, yeah, listen carefully. They don't see, they don't check at all. I don't know. You want to know something? When you get back stuff from the cleaners, you always come back to complain, you know, you know. If the cleaners is not a French cleaner, not a cleaner, there's always משהו to complain. The only thing is, I was thinking about it. The truth is, you complain. You complain about a dirt, you complain about oil stains. It went through that cleaning process. It's very difficult to come and say that there's blood left over. Not blood, paint, oil. Now, and what am I trying to bring out? Is there a chazkas ibaduk when you send it to the cleaners? I can just say that in those days, different, they were laundered differently than today. We'll talk about that also. But you see, I'd like to say it this way. I have a reason why I'm going in order. I'm little by little. If you notice what I'm doing, I'm opening up the peel to get to the core of the halacha, little by little, like here, cutting away the edges. Let's get down to the yesod of the halacha, to understand it. So again, is chazkas ibaduk...

Because, kvisa, where everything is chazakah. Any time a woman gets a hold of someone else's clothing, it's what? Why? Because I screamed at you? Huh, okay. If that's what you get lost, we... Yeah. Yeah, I'm telling you, that's mamash my case. I took my pants to the cleaners, and I have buds missing. The lady checked, and she showed my buds back. Right, but that's not common. It's usually not common at all. Now, it could be you told her she's a yochasin, or it could be she's a chaya woman. No, she didn't know. My brother gave me the cleaners. Huh? A lot of people, again, but we could go back to the other... So it could be it has to do with the type of cleaners. I don't know. I think for sure, I think that if you know that the cleaners—I'm not going to say this eventually—if the cleaners are such cleaners that you know that they're makpid to check afterwards, so when it came back from the cleaners, it's chazkas ibad. We go back to the first case also, that the lady's going to lose her umnus; she's going to check if it's clean. Okay, so we're going to discuss that. I'm going to get to that in a minute. The losing the umnus, I'm going to get to in a few minutes. I'm talking about the chazkas ibaduk on the chazakah shebo. Again, listen carefully. There's a chazkas ibaduk, a Jewish woman. Now we're pushing it a little further to say a chazkas ibaduk by when you think in your mind that, ah, I sent it to the cleaners, they check. I don't know if that's true. You see, I was clarifying. I'm not even so sure that's true, because a lot of times you get it back from the cleaners, and then there's stains all over it. So in Brooklyn, I don't think they check. I don't believe that in Brooklyn they don't check. In Israel they don't check. In a lot of places they don't check. But where they check, where you know a metzius that the lady taka checks, or whoever the man behind the counter checks, right? So then maybe it is chazkas ibaduk, even if he's not a Jew. Because he knows to give it back to you clean. Then there's a third צד which I want to discuss. Let's say you have a cleaning lady in the house, and her job is to make sure it's clean. Says there is sevara that itself, that it's her job, that itself that it's her job, you could be סומך that she cleaned it. Now I'll tell you why I'm saying this. Why am I saying this? It just says in נתקבס על ידי ישראלית, נתקבס על ידי גויה. What's the story? Later he talks about here, ואם היא בפניו ממשמשת בכסתו, לא משום תחילה הוי ולא אב על ידי כיבוס. ואם נתקבס על ידי שפחה או עבודת כוכבים, אפילו אין לפנינו, תלינן שתחילה הוי. שפחה. What is the שפחה? Shifcha means your shifcha? That's what it means? I don't know. Is a shifcha means your shifcha? I saw the Badei HaShulchan learn shifcha means there's two. There's the עבד כנעני, there's shifcha which has a din of half Yisrael. He's all into that, that the shifcha here isn't— Yeah, not, but not— shifcha, a goy. I was learning shifcha maid in the house. So then what's the two things? Shפחה או עבודת כוכבים. It's a very nice ha'ara. What does he mean by shifcha? What does he mean? He means the shifcha lafukei, because the pshat is she's a shifcha and therefore she has certain dinim of mitzvahs. Or the shifcha is because she's the maid in the house. So the Badei HaShulchan, takke, the biurim learns that it has to do with shifcha, that she's not an עבדת כוכבים completely. Ken zayn, ken zayn, could be that if her job is dependent on it. So, m'meila, she's a shivcha in the house, not a shivcha shebeshivcha in the house. Maybe then you could even somech on her kibbus. The only thing is, you would have the other chisaron. You won't be able to be somech on her at all for the nemanus. Oh, now you're talking. Now you're talking interesting things. Why do you need nemanus if you have chazakah? Why do you need nemanus? Tell me, if you have a chazakah and it's bifaneinu lishol, do you ask? Im niskabes al yedei Yisrael v'eina bifaneinu lishol. But if it's bifaneinu lishol, you just see clean, you don't rely on the chazakah. So she'd say, not like what you just said. Wait a minute. Slow down. Let me finish my—let me finish. Let me finish ranking you out. Hold on a second. Now let's say there's a chazakah that it's clean, but if it would be bifaneinu, right, maybe you have to ask her. Now I want to tell you something. Ochashulchan paskens that even a goya is ne'eman bifaneinu. You see, she's telling the truth. The sicha lefi tuma, you know, whatever, you have to go into the halachos of a goya. It's an Aruch HaShulchan, very nice Aruch HaShulchan. It says that you don't believe the goya. Maybe she's believable.

They all call, everybody calls the saracha believable. Okay, let's say Mashiach lefi tumo, and that's why it's believable, right? She's just talking. So if she's befaneinu, right, so do you have to ask? Maybe yeah. Maybe yeah. It would be a very interesting shayla. Let's say you have a guy in the house whose job is to make sure it's clean. Her job is to make sure it's clean, and she is befaneinu and she's trustworthy. And if she's not trustworthy, so you know, chazakah maybe, all together, I don't know. She's not trustworthy. Why is she in the house still? Well, you—obviously, you know, you've never had a guy in the house. Yeah. She's not trustworthy. Right, so that's what I just said. That's why she—so that's what I'm answering. That's why she's there. So that's what he asked you. So you just asked me, what is she there if she's not trustworthy? My mother needs the clothing. She's gonna wash it off. Of course she's gonna wash it. Who does the good laundry? But after doesn't help you. Before. The question—before she does, my mother's gonna check. She's not gonna be—oh, she's gonna clean it off. She didn't realize it. You know, he's asking a good ha'ara. I was thinking about this ha'ara. You should know, Benji, you're asking good. Let's say it's niskabes al yedei Yisraelis, ve'einu mefaneinu lishel. Should she check? Should a woman takke check, or you're not mechuyav to check? She doesn't know. I know she doesn't know, but the question is, should she? I'm saying before wearing it. Before wearing it. Chaluk—it's mashma, chaluk shel lav shasas, right? Which is every clothing. Chaluk shel lav shasas is every clothing, okay? Every clothing that a woman puts on is chaluk shel lav shasas. Should she check? I don't... it doesn't say it here. Man, you frek's good. I was thinking about this this morning. I don't know if you should check, or the pshat is that it's considered checked, that's all finished. The kibbus Yisraeli, it's considered chazkasa baduk. So I'm asking, that's exactly what we're asking. So why don't you write all this down? You know what information I just told you? Where's—everybody's looking at me. I just started. You know how much I gave you? Come on, let's go, let's go, nu. Okay, so let's make a quick chazarah so you guys can write a little bit here. Halacha l'maaseh. V'niskabeis. What level of kibbus? Now the truth is, if it has to do with bedikah, it really shouldn't make a difference. But if you learn the first pshat in the Gemara, it does make a difference. Now you're asking me an interesting ha'arah. Before I—let me just continue on this point. Why do I have to ask about the first pshat in the Gemara? We don't pasken like the first—no, you look at me and say, Why is he going back to the first pshat in the Gemara? Why are we talking about tefiros, which is a nafka mina only in the first pshat in the Gemara? I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. There's two problems I have. The first problem is that the Shach paskens that we don't pasken like the Shulchan Aruch. He says that even if it went through the bedikah, nah, the minhag is to consider chazkasa eina baduk, which means, of course according to the Shach you have to check. There's no shaylah. That's where I got to the safek in the Shulchan Aruch. Because l'maaseh the Shach paskens that even the Shulchan Aruch we don't pasken like. He says, the Shach says, no, he says that we consider, v'nachon l'hachmir, we're machmir, we consider. Whatever, he says we consider. You don't trust the lady? That's what it says. Here it, u'bizman hazeh lo chazina d'dar b'nei Yisrael, b'kach v'nir'eh l'hachmir. You hear? Just arguing metzius. Just arguing metzius. He says different metzius, that's it. Different metzius. Now I'll tell you why I'm saying this, why am I saying this? I'll tell you why. If let's say we don't say the Gemara talks about chazkasai baduk, is it taka true, the first pshat in the Gemara, that kibus makes a chazkasai baduk? No. He says no. The maskana, no. Okay, so let me ask you a simple kasha. Does it make sense that they should argue on a metzius? Something went through the washing machine, so one man d'amar says it's clean, the other one says it's not clean, so go to Hoover and ask Hoover if it cleans things. I don't—what do you—who does the washing machines today? The Whirlpool. You probably know, huh? Whirlpool. Ask Whirlpool. I don't understand, what are you talking about? Taka, do you have a machlokes in the Gemara if the kibus does it or it's the bedikah that does? What are they arguing about?

So now he's arguing with what type of kibus. So I was asking, is there a chiluk? I don't know. It's an interesting ha'ara over here. What are you tying Rebbi Fals? A nice shaila, eh? How could you? Somebody went through the washing machine. No, I don't like that pshat. I like because she looks at it before. What's wrong with the fact that it went through a washing machine? Unless you say, yeah, yesh mu'in. ... מה שאין כן מחלוקת פה. לא, אבל יהודי אומרים שזה בדוק. וזה חומרה. אז מה חומרה? ... לא מתיישב פה. לא, אבל אם היא אומרת שזה היה לפני. Here, he's saying like this: The cheses b'nois Yisrael bodkos chalukeihen v'shal chaverihen b'shaas kibus. Im timtza kesem, magedes l'chaverta. Okay? And therefore now it's a real kesem, because she would have checked it. She would have checked it. So therefore it's not a kesem. ... השולחן ערוך מעצמו מחמיר. I'm saying it's considered eid habaduk, eid she'eino baduk. No, it's considered eid she'eino baduk. No. ... Chazakah bat kasa. Chazakah is that she'll check it. The cheskas b'nois Yisrael bodkos. Okay. Keilomar, v'im timtza kesem, magedes l'chaverta. So therefore, if she didn't tell you, Obviously that it was baduk. So when you find a kesem, right, so you can't come and say it was from previous, right? U'bizman hazeh lo chazinan, d'derech bnos Yisrael b'kach. We don't find that they do it, right? One second, one second, one second. V'nir'eh l'hachmir, which means that even though b'etzem it shouldn't be, it should be that it's eino baduk, right? It should be tahor, still we're machmir. I understand, but b'etzem he's saying is that, of course, the metzius changed. Okay, now, so right now, right, al pi halacha, we consider it baduk or eino baduk? L'maaseh, menachin l'hachmir. So what do we consider it? We consider it that it's baduk. And even though the metzius changed, we consider it baduk. But b'etzem it's not called a baduk. B'etzem it's not called a baduk, and it should be mutar, right? I l'maaseh went through the washing machine. What, it went through a wash. What, the pants—I'm asking, I'm asking, what's—at the end of the day it got clean. So what are you going to say, well, we don't hold it at? It's weird. It's a mudna thing, you said. You said it clearly. It's not cleaning doesn't help, unless you saw it and you should clean it, it doesn't help. Okay, so explain to me, wait a second, explain to me, is the pshat because those days they didn't know how to clean? They knew how to clean. If they noticed—stam, it wouldn't get clean, just because you soak something in water doesn't mean it's going to go away. Because they weren't makpid to clean it. No, they didn't have detergents, I don't know. Maybe stain. You notice that everybody says maybe, and every maybe is different. I'm trying to get one answer, and they're all saying maybe, and everybody's saying something different. No, he said magedes, but today they're not magedes. Right, so lefi the halacha, really it should become a she'eino bodek, but it went through a cleaning. I don't say it got washed. Maiseh, it got washed. I mean, what are you arguing? It has to be bodek before you wash it. I understand all that, but let's say a woman put on clothing that went through wash. So the wash is no good, he's saying. Also, he's obviously saying that the wash is no good. Why? So either you come and say because they were idiots and they didn't know how to wash clothing in those days. Or blood doesn't come off. That's the most ridiculous thing I have. You know the easiest thing to take off clothing is blood. The easiest thing to take off clothing is blood. If it's an old stain. ... says no. I'm going to tell you blood doesn't come off. Blood doesn't come off. Okay, I want to tell you a tremendous chiddush. I want to note your... The only stain that comes off quickly is blood. Only if you soak it right away, because blood is mostly water. The difference between blood...

Calm down. Everybody's very, very agitated. Okay, I want to tell you a yesoid, okay? We're going to make an experiment, all right? We're going to take dirty clothing, huh? And we're going to put it in the washing machine without detergent. And then we're going to take— and just cut yourself, put blood on something and put it in, okay, without detergent. You'll see that the one with the blood cleans off much faster. The one with the blood cleans off much, much faster. Wait a minute. Before not a proof. Slowly, let me talk. You know what? Now I heard everything you have to say, and believe me, I have better things to say than you. So listen, let me talk. If I don't give you a chance to talk, you come and say, Who knows what I'm missing? I heard everything. I'm not missing it. Okay, listen carefully, okay? When you put a blood— blood is mostly water. The reason why it becomes— because it hardens. It coagulates, whatever you call it. What is it called? Coagulates. Okay. Now, the minute you put water, it dissolves again. You know, we learned this. You know when we learned this? By cartoon. We learned this. We learned this, that if you put water on it, it's going to melt. Okay, now I want to tell you another thing also. We learned this, that if you put water on a thing, it melts. We learned this, okay? Now I want to tell you another thing also. L'maaseh, you don't need much of the blood to disappear. Even if it fades a little bit, even if it fades a little bit, you're already not tamei, yeah, and you can be tovel. You don't need that it should be a baduk, baduk. You don't need that it should be completely clean. As long as it faded a little bit, all you need was that it should fade a little bit, right? The minute it faded a little bit, right? That's my question. I want to know a simple thing. But it faded, right? Let's say it didn't wash off totally, at least faded a drop. That's the question. That's exactly the question. That's my question. What do you want? You don't know that if a woman, it's old blood and went through a washing, you don't see what you were taught, you don't see the difference. I mean, you look at it, you see a difference. Shchorot tovah is not maglid; it's a certain type of checking. Did it go in? It's on the outside. Okay, can I talk? That's it. Why don't you say that, let me talk? The question is, the question is, there's got to be some recognition to a washed cloth if it went through any form of washing. It's very complicated when you have a machlokes in a Mishnah that something that went through wash, ah, that's not called clean. Why not? Why not? I mean, you have to explain it. That needs to be explained. Why would something that goes through a wash not be called clean? At some form, at some level, it's got to be faded clean something. Something, there's got to be some heker, I mean, something. You can't— So what's the machlokes? What are they arguing? It's a shaila l'sugya. I mean, what is the Mishnah? What are you arguing about? How could you argue that something went through a cleaner, something that was cleaned? No, that's not chiskasiyah. I'm saying, the shacht that comes—see, pashut pshat is it's really not nigeia anything, right? Because since she checks it, it's also baduk, right? Who cares, right? But on the tzad that there's a first tzad in the Gemara that has to do with the cleaning, I want to tell you something interesting. I want to tell you something interesting. There's a machlokes, l'maaseh, today in the poskim. L'maaseh there's a machlokes today in the poskim. The Shevet HaLevi says, we washing machine... soap. This sugya is not nogeia anymore. The minute it went—which means, we have to pasken like the first tzad in the Mishnah. Today we have to pasken, which means in the old days maybe it wasn't so clean when it came out, right? Obviously he's trying to say that this, that there is a tzad in the Gemara that it's clean when it comes out of the wash, and we don't...

I ask him, like, that has to do with the way it was washed. See, that's what I asked you. When it's kavis, what form, what how, what level? So he said it doesn't make a difference. It does make a difference, because today that we have good wash, good clean, right? So therefore we say that it's not nigea. But this, Karelitzer sefer says, What are you talking about? It's shchiach that every time you put it through a wash, it comes out dirty. Now, the first thing that went through my mind is maybe one is from Bnei Brak, from chazonish kollel over there, where the washing machines is, they don't work, and the other one, Rav Vosner, is more chassidishe, he has a shtickel more money, and he has a better washing machine. That was the first thing that came to my mind. I read the she'eilah, Levi, you see what he writes? What does he say? The Mishnah is right. Rav Vosner's name is saying, it comes out dirty. I don't know, it's very strange that in a three-block radius, some people have clean laundry and the other one doesn't have clean laundry. I don't know, they live within three blocks of each other. I don't know, it's funny. Okay, can we not get into the way it is, your laundry in your house? I'm not interested. I want to talk about halacha l'maaseh. You know what I really think? I think there's a deep machlokes here. To learn, yeah, clean, it's not clean, it is clean, I don't know. Stupidity. That doesn't make sense to me. Tell you what I think the pshat is. Do you need chazakah? I'm not doing—you put something in the laundry, it's going to come out clean. But could we come and say b'girrus that it's clean? Yeah. What do you need? What level to make it eid haboduk? If the sevara tells me that it's an eid haboduk, is that good enough? Or in order to make an eid haboduk, it has to be based on a chazakah? Is eid haboduk a din, like a cheskas taharah, cheskas naki, cheskas tumah? Does it have chazakos? Does it have to do with hilchos chazakos? Or the sevara? Maybe he's saying a very pashut zach. The sevara tells me that if you put it into the laundry, it's coming out clean. You're right, that's the sevara. You called, you called. So he'll help him out. I don't know. Yeah, we're talking—you like it. But I'm thinking about going back to the first—no matter how much you put in the washing machine, it's still becoming... It's still what? It's still becoming less. Yeah. I'm going to get to that in a few minutes. Let's just talk a little bit, slowly. But I think if you put it in a washing machine, it's a chazakah that it should come out clean. Most of the time it does. No. See, that's what I'm trying to get at. It's supposed to come out clean, right? But can I come and say that there's a chazakah that it makes it clean? You're right. I put it in a washing machine; it's clean. Meaning, is it based on an emunah of something that it's clean? Tell you something. Tell you something. Try to listen. I'm trying to say something here. Is it enough to say that it's baduk, or it has to be with a hechsher that it's baduk? It has to be checked to be baduk. It has to be checked to be baduk, no? Is it enough to say it's probably clean, or it needed an emunah of something to say that it was clean when it was once dirty? It has to be checked. What does the word baduk mean? Why it's not chazakah naki, no? Eid ha-naki. What's eid ha-baduk? Eid naki. Checked. The washing machine is clean without checked. The machlokes in the Gemara, the two shitos in the Gemara, I hold is telling this shaila: if one of yemei koves said it's clean.

But it's not checked clean. It's not known to be clean. It's clean. The svara is that it's clean, says the Gemara, because whoever checks it, whoever cleans it, checks it. That's called eid ha'ma'id. What's called baduk? What's called baduk? Avada, the svara is that when it goes into the cleaning, it's going to be clean. But no one ever checked it. What do you say, Rav? So what did the Shach say? ... We're talking about something else. ... something else. I'm saying it's not a baduk so I can be toleh. That's what Rebbe wants to say. No, I'm talking about the first thing. Let's go back to the original thing. When something is clean— So is it washed baduk, that just it came out of the washing machine? You have to check it after it's washed. It might not come in there. I just told you what the nafka mina is. If you put something through a beautiful washing machine, it was never checked. So it's eino baduk, right? It's not baduk. It's not clean. If it's not baduk, it can be toleh, right? If it's not baduk. So why did the Shach say? ... Now you ask a good question. The Sidrei Taharah. So the Sidrei Taharah asked you a question. So that's a Sidrei Taharah's kasha. Comes the Sidrei Taharah, you hear? Comes the Sidrei Taharah and he asks on the Shach, I don't see what you're talking about. How could you come and say that they don't check? So you're contradicting yourself, right? If they don't check, so what does the Sidrei Taharah give? A new teretz, a whole new mahalach. What's called the checking? He says a whole new mahalach. Go ahead, read it from here. Okay, it says the Sidrei Taharah, no? No? No, Shulchan Aruch is talking about the beged. No, but the question is like this: are we discussing that the beged is clean, or are we discussing that someone checked it? Which means it's not enough to know that it's clean; it had to be checked clean. Mashgiach. Oh, so the shochet is saying they don't check. Comes along the Seder HaTaharah, he says, What are you talking about? So what are you saying? I don't say that if it doesn't happen, so what are you talking about? The derech Bnei Yisrael is not to do this. So what's takanah l'hachmir? What do you mean machmir exactly? Okay, go ahead. Nu, says the Seder HaTaharah. Go ahead, read it, read it from here. Okay, Seder HaTaharah hiksha. He asks the kasha, What are you talking about? Ma איכפת? What are you talking about, shochet? What are you saying? Words don't make sense. They don't do it, af al pi כן. So what's ... l'hachmir? Yeah. The other, v'keivan she'eino bodeket leikar ra'ayah mishtikasah. Okay, leikar ra'ayah here. So hiksha, mai hikmit? Ad rabah, because ... leikar ra'ayah. Mishtikasah shelo haya kesem, v'yesh lah shehaya kesem mikodem l'hakel. Okay. U'v'shulchan Aruch haRav פירש כוונת הש"ך, כגון שלבשה חלוק הבדוק לה ופשטתו, ולא בדקתו, ונאסרה לכובסת ישראלית, ואחר כך ... Now this is not what I want. I want his teretz. What's his teretz? Where's his teretz? No? Hey, how can we ignore his teretz? Nati, I don't like this. Bring me the teretz. Read it over there, go ahead. No? I don't know why it doesn't bring it. Go ahead, no. They say, they tell the lady who's called this, she brings down there. If they find it, they make sure to clean it. They would clean it. Right. Even if you don't see ladies telling each other, like, it's time to... my sister, she's, the chazakah is still there that she cleans. That she cleans. Okay. Chazakah is that she cleans. Okay. So what is the chazakah exactly? Is the chazakah if it's clean or not, or is the chazakah that she'll go do her job and clean it? Oh, tell me, does the washing machine have a chazakah that it's going to do its job and clean it? Huh? Again, if the chazakah is on the cloth checked or not checked, or is the chazakah on the cloth washed or not washed? You don't know how beautiful I'm telling you. You have no idea what I'm teaching you.

Notice I got down to the heart of the sugya. You know what the heart of this sugya is? Is eid habaduk. Baduk. Pirush: naki v'lo naki, or baduk. Wait. Checked. I'm either checked or not checked, or it was clean or not clean. That was the first. I'm saying cleaned in the maiseh. Cleaned or not cleaned, or clean or not. Cleaned or not cleaned, or clean or not cleaned. I don't know who you are, but I like you. You're like a lyon novi that showed up in the shiur today. I have no idea who you are, but tell me, you hear how I learn? I learn the truth. I want to get down to the bottom of it. I want to know what's going on over here. How can I have one sefer tell me the one because that is clean, it's not clean? What are you talking about? I don't know. And the other one says, no, it comes out clean. Well, it says, you better find out. They better get a better cleaning lady. From this ... you better find an Arab that knows how to clean the laundry better. I mean, what should I tell you? There's something wrong. There's a whole different side. There's something else going on here. The nekudah is, step number one, are we discussing, is the aid checked? Now we're saying an interesting chiddush, which means it's like this. The first side of the matter is that the keevus itself makes it, which means it was never checked by anybody. But there's a chazakah that the cleaning took care of the job. It's two different sugyas. One sugya is that you have to have that the cleaning took care, and the other sugya is that's not good. We need something else. We need that to be checked by somebody. That's what there are. So what happens in case there's a chazakah that the cleaning did its job? Maybe it's not good enough to make it an eid habaduk. That's not. Is it good enough or not? Or is it, if you have a good machine, is eid habaduk that it is clean or not clean? Or eid habaduk is cleaned. It's going on the action that it was cleaned. It has to do with the sefirah tairo also. What is the chazakah? There's two things we could say: either they check it to tell, or the pshat is in case it's there, they go and wash it. So you could tell a fact that it was cleaned, that it is clean, that it was cleaned, not that it is clean, that it was cleaned. Exactly. So l'choira the washing machine should be good. The only thing is I could tell you a few chidushim. In case, let's say, if they're washed with bleach and there's other clothing there, I hold it's not an eid habaduk. Even in the best of washing machines, if you use any form of bleach and you didn't mark on the whites and the colors, so no matter what you do, understand. Now another thing: if you have the husband doing it, I don't think it's an eid habaduk. He might not know how to wash laundry. Cycles, cold water, hot water. Who says he knows how to wash laundry? Whatever, I'm saying eid habaduk has to be... If you hold, yeah, yeah. If you hold not, not. Now, okay. Now, what happens? Seder Taharah is an interesting thing. What's the derech b'nois Yisroel? What don't they do? So the Shach says they don't go and talk about some to their friends. By the way, I found the kesem in your underwear. They don't talk like that, okay? So he says, so why nira l'hachmir? The words don't flow. The Shach doesn't flow. He says, Seder Taharah, you don't know what he means. He means to say, he's of course not going to talk about it, but he'll go wash it. So that chazakah you have. So I said, what is he saying? He's saying two different chazakos. One chazakah is checked by somebody, and the other chazakah was made sure to be cleaned. So magid l'chavertah means not that you have a kesem, that I washed it. So he's saying, according to the Shach— No, he says no, they don't do that. That's what they used to do. B'zman hazeh they don't do that. In the old days they used to come and say. Today they don't say. But even on that he's saying, but they'll clean it. Seder Taharah is answering that wasn't the— so the whole thing is about it was cleaned. Cleaned? Yeah. Right, that's right. There's two ways: is the chazakah that it is clean, that it was cleaned. The chazakah is it was cleaned.

Is it about the eid, or is it about the maaseh kibbus? That's the nafka mina. Okay, now. Very nice. So, Seder said it was clean or clean? That's what I'm saying. It was clean. 100% clean. No stain. Clean, clean. So there'll be a very interesting nafka mina. What happens if it's a kaivas Yisrael, which means you have a Jewish lady working, yeah? Kaivas Yisrael, a Jewish lady working, right? And she left for the day before you came home. So there was no time for her to tell you about it. There was no time for you to tell you about it. She didn't take it out of the machine? She took it out of the machine, let's say, right? Wait a second. She took it out of the machine, and there was a kesem. But you came home five hours later. She left at four o'clock because her job's over at four o'clock. You put it on and then— So what's the din? Chayresh, it has to do with magedes. If it has to do with chazkas ebaduk and magedes, so l'choira there was no magedes here. There was no b'hechatimtza magedes. But if the pshat is that she would wash it again like the Sidrei Taharah, so it doesn't really make a difference. Very big nafka mina l'halacha. The only thing I'm clarifying, the only thing I'm— she's a kaivas Yisrael. It comes out of the washing machine dirty. So if the maggidis means she'll go and tell, she'll go and tell. So what happened? She wasn't there. You just didn't come home. But if the pshat is that it has to do with that she'll go back to clean it, she'll go back to clean it, even if she couldn't have a chance. Very, very nafka mina lahalacha, hold in this in the Torah. The only klar I could have is, you know, let's say we don't hold like this shachah. I'm clarifying l'maaseh. Let's say it's an older woman, yeah? It's an older woman, right? She knows hilchos k'samim. So she would tell you. I think she would call you up on the phone. She would call and say, by the—call you at work to tell you, by the way, it came out not clean. I don't know. It's too late. Of course, if she's lefanai now, she's not lefanai now, it's too late. You put— You came home, you put it on, you're thinking that it was clean, and that was the end of the story. Ask her what, the next day? Let's say you can't. That's not going to be. There's nothing you ask her now. You're not going to do that. No? Why not? Why not? No, people don't do that. You just call someone at work and say, hi. It's shayach anyway. Come home, you say, by the way, it wasn't clean. I don't know. I'll call ponim. I'll call ponim. I want to say another chiddush also. If you learn like the Seder Taharah, that they go back to wash it, then eino chanami, a girl, a young girl who doesn't know hilchos niddah. Would still go back to clean it, because she wants it to be clean. And a goya, same thing. Once you learn like the Sidrei Tahara, so the pshat would be is that the goya is because they're not clean, not because of hilchos k'samim. So if you know that the goya's job, and it's for her to be clean, then it will be good. That's what I started the shiur with. I asked you this shaila. I asked you this question: is the pshat in the Shulchan Aruch, because a Yid knows hilchos tumah and taharah and a goya doesn't know hilchos tumah and taharah, or it has to do with cleanliness? So it's תלוי in this shaila. If it has to do with telling you that there's a kesem, so then it has to do with what? Tumah and taharah. But if it has to do with that you would go back to wash it, the goya, I think, would go back to wash it also. Her job is in the house to clean, so ... it comes out that either way it would be cheskasai baduk, whether it's this way, it would always be a cheskasai baduk. Now, with this, let's go back to Sadin and Chaluk. Let's go back to Sadin and Chaluk. Yeah? Are you maskim with this? So how can you not?

Happy. A poker face? A poker face? You want him to use a stick and stop poking you? What kind of poker face? What are you talking about? Oh, you're bluffing. That's what he means. Yes, a beautiful vort. What's your name, rabbi? Rav Dovid. Rav Dovid, you hear what we're saying? Masking? Why not? If you mask him, al tkavera tahor, then I'm not happy. I want you to mask him because he makes sense to you. My job is till the people in front of me, I'm masking because they understand it. It's like I'm worried about the hair, worried about the hair, you hear? That there's a svara of she would go back to wash it because it's not clean, that has nothing to do with tumas kesamim necessarily. If there's a svara like that in general, it would also be true. But if it has to do with telling the woman that there's a kesem, right? Forget it, the guy is not going to come and say, Oh, by the way, there's a kesem. Only a Yid would say a thing like that, for two reasons. One reason is because they're makpid on hilchos kesamim, and two is the guy doesn't want to say that she can do her job and clean it. Okay. Let's go back to chaluk. Well, we weren't sure. That's what we're clarifying. Either the pshat has to do with ne'emanus, it has to do with believing or not believing, or it has to do with the magedes, because a guy is not going to be maged because they don't know hilchos, the halachos, masheinkein the Yid. Or the third pshat is the guy is not makpid on cleanliness so much, you know, they're not so makpid. So I'm telling you an interesting deher. L'uyetzurei, the pshat is that she, the svara is that she would go back to wash it. If she's a goy in the house, she's going back to wash it, 100%. If she comes out dirty, she'll come back to wash it. Not gonna leave it with bloodstain, right? But if it's out to say, because of hilchos ksamim, she's not gonna say. Only a Yid would say it. Only a Yid would come and say, By the way, you know, a goy is gonna say, I did the job. I'm not gonna say it's dirty, that after I finish washing it's still dirty. Okay. Add a different shaila, okay? When is the bedikah exactly? When is she bodek? Is she bodek before she puts it in? Is she bodek after she takes it out? You're trying to understand the whole shit. So wait a second. Okay. Af achat... אני שאלתי את זה בתחילת השיעור. I asked you, what does the word bishas mean? I asked you, what does the word bishas mean? What does the word bishas? The Gemara uses the lashon bishas kvisa. Why they check before? They want to see if they're from a Yid, they check to see if there's ksamim, and to wash it. You say before, he says before, you say after, so who should I listen to? No, after this whole thing, we just went through right now, right? According to the Seder Taharah, that maybe the wash is no good, so she's bodek afterwards, bedikah does. Obviously she's bodek afterwards, not before. No, it's nafka mina in the Seder Taharah. If you learn that it has to do with teaching the woman about the bedikah, about her ksamim, so she's bodek before also. She byedi before also. She wants to see. By the way, you might be tamei from the ksamim, you might even be tamei. But if it has to do because she wants to rewash it, it's after. Well, it's after. It's gevaldik. Now you see why you're sitting here? No. No, you hear what I'm doing for you? You hear how I teach you? There's a very big nafka... I'll tell you what the nafka mina lahalacha is, you ready? I heard there's a very big nafka mina lahalacha. I saw Reb Nissan Karelitz says a chiddush nifla. It's a very interesting chiddush. It says like this: Today we have washing machine and we have dryer. So it goes right from the washing machine right into the dryer. So when is she checking? He says in order to become a koveis Yisrael, she had to hang it up to dry it. She had to look at it. Hang it up to dry. You see, he's really... I keep on seeing from Reb Nissan Karelitz that it's lefi his washing machine, that's his dryer. You see, from his washing machine that doesn't clean the clothing, that's why the dryer is that they hang it up in the mirpeset. Today you do it the second time. Once take it out from the—not dryer.

Yeah. Then he talks about that there's a machine that washes and dries it together. There's such a machine. He talks about that also. So I said, wait a minute, where did he get that from, you know? He says about the washer machine that dries it together. Okay, what's the point? He says then it's not a kilkul with Yisrael, because when is she checking? So I have a shaila for you, slowly. Maybe she's checking when she puts it away. Maybe she's checking before. And the answer is, she's not doing that. You know when she's checking it? She's checking once it's washed. If it was taka washed, should she rewash it a second cycle? That's how he's learning. He's learning that the checking is like the siduri taharah after. Mimeila, if she's not going to do the drying, so ein hachanami. What happens if, let's say, she's taka a nozeret in the house? Would she put it back in the drawer with a kesem on it? I don't think so. Maybe after she folded it, but if it came out of the dryer with a kesem, what's she going to say, I'm going to go fold it and put it back into the drawer? It's a very big chiddush he's saying. He's learning it has to be b'shaas kvisa mamash, b'shaas kvisa. So what's called b'shaas kvisa? In the process of kvisa, lifnei that you went and you dried it. Who said? Maybe it's before, maybe it's after. What's that? That's exactly what I'm saying. Again, that's exactly what I just said. If you learn the sidur taharah, then it's b'shaas, b'shaas. And you see that Reb Moshe Karlinz was learning that it has something to do during the process. I mean, what's wrong before and what's wrong with after? So I'm telling you that's what the pshat is. That's what I'm telling you. He's learning during. Exactly. Exactly. You know who just said that? Me. What? I just said that. I just said that. That's exactly what I'm saying, and I'm trying to tell you that, that they were medayek in the words that has something to do with shas kvisa. And then, hachanami, if the kvisa is over without you looking and touching, so then it's nothing. It doesn't help you anything. Very big chiddush. Chiddush nifla. The way I always understood is that they check beforehand because they're makpid on hilchos ksamim. They check afterwards because they're makpid on hilchos ksamim. But if you learn like the Siddur Tahor just to make sure that it was washed properly, maybe the taich is once it was washed, they're not going to go back and rewash it. I'm showing you there's a whole... It has something to do with shas kvisa, to rewash it, to make a second cycle out of it. Okay. Now, let's discuss chaluk and sadin. I want to say a chiddush. When you spread out a bedsheet and there's blood on it, you're not going to notice it. Of course you are. Would a woman take a blood-stained bedsheet and put it back on a bed? You might. Stuff that comes from the laundry, stuff that comes from the laundry, and it has a bloodstain, it could get through and get put back onto the rack. Shh. Put back on the rack. So if it's a yid, she's makpid, she's very careful. But if you're not careful, so it could happen. It can't happen. And underwear, it can't happen that you should put it back when it has a blood. So it could happen. But if it has on the sheet of blood stain, sadin, the Shulchan Aruch picked the case of chaluk. Maybe it's dafka chaluk, because by a sadin, there's nothing. I mean, she's not going to do it. No one's going to put it back. Unless, I was thinking, in those days they probably only had one. Today, that they have a lot, how many sadinim? You may have a lot of sadinim, and if you fold it up and put it back into the drawer, you don't have to take it out. But a sadin, in those days, let's say they only had one, b'stam you would chap when you put it on, and it's different. So chaluk is different than a sadin. You would clean it. And I'll tell you why I'm saying this. I was thinking, in Shulchan Aruch, do we have a discussion of undergarments? Hmm? No, right? No, it's always about the chaluk, no? For what? In all the cases.

This is that we spoke about. Chaluk is a clothing. It's a dress. It's an outer thing. They have gimmel mabushim. The mabushim is called, al gab se. It seems like the underclothes. So either the pshat is like you're saying, they didn't have it. That's what I was asking. Maybe they just didn't have it. I want a tiny chiddush. Like it, take it. You don't like it, then just throw it out. I don't really care. I want a tiny underwear is eino baduk unless you bedavka went to check to make sure that it's baduk. A chaluk is baduk with the kvisa alone. Chaluk is an eino baduk till baduk. An undergarment. An overgarment, it's when lavshe bimei taharasa, it's clean till known otherwise. An undergarment's chazkasi meluchlach, and a chaluk is chazkasi not meluchlach. What'd you say, Daniel? You thought about it. It makes a lot of sense, huh?