Hilchos Niddah: Yichud After Chuppas Niddah, Two Shomrim, and the Rules of Day and Night

Transcript

Now that we finished, now that we finished the first part of the seif about the issur to be misyached with the nida that became a nida after chasna before the bi'ah, now let's see the tikkun. Let's see the tikkun. How do we correct the yichud? Okay. So the first shita the Rama brings, הגה: ויש אומרים, אם היתה טהורה כשניסת, אין צריך שמירה, which means the whole thing is not nigea. Then he says, ואין לחלק בזה בין פנויה לאלמנה. Okay, good. Now, יש אומרים שאסור לייחד עמה ביום כמו בלילה, ואין צריך להיות שתי שמירות, רק הוא בין האנשים. That's Tur b'shem haRosh. Then Beis Yosef b'shem haRashba second shita. And ויש אומרים, the Raavad. So the second יש אומרים is the Raavad. Okay. So in order to understand the shitos that the Rama brings, and then to clarify what the mechaber's shita is in this inyan, let's go through the shitos a little bit b'kitzur. So the first thing is, is the Raavad's shita. The Raavad learns that the issur here is much worse, much worse. Yoter chamuru miyichud ragil, because yichud ragil all you need is one shmira. You don't need two shmiros. This is worse. This is much, much worse, and therefore you need two shmiros. This is balayla. Bayom, like the Rama brings down, u'bayom mutar lisyached. So be'emes, it's a peledike thing. On one hand we're saying it's more chamur, yeah? On one hand we say it's more chamur, and therefore you need two shmiros. And by yayin, eh, mutar l'syached. Comes along the Chazon Ish, and I told it to you, Atah mevin es hashe'eilah? Balailah shtei shmiros, ubayom mutar. Eich mevinim et ze? So the Chazon Ish says it's only d'rabbanan. Okay, it might be d'rabbanan, but you see it's more chamur. I mean, how do you go from one extreme to the other? Yeah? Shailah on the Ra'avad. Yeah, I'm saying that's the shailah on the Ra'avad. Let's hear a raya. Chazon Ish wants to say you see it's only d'rabbanan. Okay, you're right, it's d'rabbanan, but it doesn't klap. Even the d'rabbanan doesn't make sense. On one hand, we give it more chomer, and on the other hand, we're giving it a complete kulah. Man nafshach, is it more chamur or it's not more chamur? So I want to say a pshat. This should be an introduction to understanding the shittos, and that is: there's one din of yichud tzad ervah, that ervah is mechayev yichud. Ervah is mechayev that you can't be misyached with the ervah. You know how I would say it even? That it's one step before the kiruv basar, which is asur. In other words, the Rabbanan came along and said—I'm sorry, the Torah came along and said kiruv basar is asur. So the Rabbanan went one step further and said gedarim, that even to be in the same room would be asur, which is one step before kiruv basar. It's a din in the erva, that the erva is mechayev: A, no bi'ah; B, even kiruv basar min haTorah; and then midrabbanan, richuk. Mashenkein over here, it's not about erva. Over here, it's a problem you just might make bi'ah with her. So it's a shmirah for the bi'ah. Again. Tishmuf. Every erva, every erva, there's issur. It's a bi'ah, it's a kiruv basar. The chachamim went and took it as a geder, one step, even an issur to be in the same room. That's called yichud. Then there's halacha of a chashash bi'ah, b'makom yechud ein halah bi'ah. That I wouldn't call yichud; I would call that chiyuv shmirah. One is an issur yichud, and one is a chiyuv shmirah. One is an issur yichud. A chad shmulik is issur yichud.

נקודה שנייה זה חיוב שמירה, שלא לעבור על עבירה. Let's clarify a shaila, rabosai. Hu yashen, yeah. He sleeps between the men and she sleeps between the ladies. So that's two shmiras, yeah? Is the pshat she needs two shomrim or you need two shmiras? Is the tafkid of hu yashen bein anashim v'hi yesheinah bein anashim, is k'dei sheyehei ish v'ishah, which is two shomrim, or it's because it's two shmiras? The mashma'os is shomrim. I don't know. One second. The mashma'os is—there's two shomrim and shmiras. There's two nekudos. There's two shmiras, right? Which means two safeguards, and there's two shomrim, which is true also. I mean, they're both. It's the same reality, that it happens to both be two shomrim and two shmiras. Is the chiyuv mitzad two shomrim or the chiyuv mitzad two shmiras? Is it because you need two peoples? Is it about the peoples, or it's about the shmirah? Two type—עוד פעם, אני צריך שתי אנשים לשמור. Or I need two safeguards. It's two things. It's not just one ... efshariyut. עכשיו זה שתי—it's two problems. She has a person, two people. You'll see more what I want. Let's just go further. But you hear the words. Do you hear the words? You're saying this is normal safeguard, but this is called double safeguard. That's what we need, double safeguard. I don't want that either. I don't want that either. You know what I want? I'll tell you what I want. Is the pshat is that these people are going to watch you? Is it like a shomer, like the shomer that you have with you when you're a chosson? Is it about watching you and watching your actions, or it's making it more difficult? It's making it more difficult. It's a shmira. You'll stay away from it. It's not about shomrim; it's about shmiras. It's two locks. It's a double step, because I have to break through two things. I have to break through that my shomer and her shomer. Is it about the shomrim, or is it about the shmiras? First take the words and you'll see more what I want and how it makes a nafka mina. I hold that if it has to do with the issur of yichud, so once you have another person there, so the metzius is you're not misyached with them. If the issur is the yichud, so once you have one person there, you can't say you're misyached because there's somebody there, right? So it's about the body. It's about the person. It's about another human being being there. Ma she'ein kein, yeah, Benji, ma she'ein kein. If you learn that it's about we're afraid you might come to do the bi'ah, so it's about shmiras, not shmirah. It's about two safeguards. It's two steps. It's harder. Okay. You still don't have completely what I want. It'll become clear as we continue. Let's clarify now in the Ra'avad, okay? The Ra'avad says, the Ra'avad says that bayom is mutar. Why would bayom be mutar? So we have to say, bayom there's no bi'ah, and therefore it's not shchiach to make bi'ah, so therefore there's no issur. Now either the pshat is it's a din of derabbanan. Derabbanan weren't gozer b'makom shelo shchiach; that's a takanah. Do you understand? Why is bayom mutar? As you יכולים להגיד, שמאחר שאין ביאה ביום, אז לא שכיח. ומאחר שלא שכיח, לא גזרו חכמים. When the Rebbe says אין ביאה ביום, is it assur? Oh, that's what I'm trying to get at. So now I have a shaylah: what happens with heterim bayom? For example, Talmud chacham, machol b'talisoi.

So according to this, which should be even according to the Raivid, halacha l'maaseh, what happens if it's Talmud chacham, right, and it's mutar l'hafel b'talisai. Now I know that this is a discrepancy between Ashkenazim and Sefardim. I think the Ashkenazim are more machmir on this. The Mayyim and the Sefardim are more meikel with mafil b'talisai. So according to this, any mafil b'talisai, any situation according to the Raivid should be asur bayom. It should be asur bayom, just like you can make a biah bayom, so then you have a problem of the Raivid bayom. Then you have a problem of the Raivid bayom. Maybe that's gufa the shita of the Mechaber. The Mechaber says that they sleep, he yoshev vhi yeshenah, can mean any time. It's day and night. There's no hechrech between day and night. So the taich could be because since he holds it can be mafil b'talisai, so there's no sevara to be matir bayom. Okay? Yeah, Benji? Yeah? Good? Yeah? Pashut shaila. Why be matir bayom? So either the taich is because it's not shechiach, u'makom lo shchicha lo gazru Rabbanan. Since it's only Rabbanan anyway, so rak Rabbanan, a yichud, which is d'Rabbanan, is also even bayom. Yeah, but there it's not pshat they were gozer; there pshat is this issur. It's an issur yichud. So where there's an issur yichud, you can't make chiluk between yom and laila. Where it's a gezeirah shema yavo l'ivoel, he might come to be boel her, and you need a shmirah for that, so bayom, which is not shechiach, lo gazru Rabbanan. Can you repeat that? Again, I'm asking a simple thing. On one hand, we find that it's more chamur. On one hand, we find it's more kal, because by Yom it's mutar. So I'm trying to explain that. So first of all, I ask you like this: the shmiros are about shmiros, or it's about shomer. And I explained to you that yichud is a little different. Yichud is something else. You know what yichud is? Yichud is there's an issur yichud, and the heter is because now you aren't misyached. It's not a heter to the yichud. It's just not called a yichud. It's not yichud anymore. Mashenkin over here, it's gezeirah, maybe might come to do bi'ah. So with two shomrim, there's no gezeirah. But it's about a gezeirah, okay? So let's say by Yom, so we could say like this: either because by Yom is lo shchicha, by Yom is not shchiach, because it's not a zman bi'ah, since lo shchicha, so lo gazru Rabbanan. Or the pshat is that since it's by Yom, so it's not going to happen. Now what happens if it could happen? What happens if it's allowed to happen? So bishlama if you learn lo shchicha, so maybe even if it's mutar, it doesn't mean it's shchiach. It could happen, doesn't mean it's shchiach. Hagam it's the beginning, right? Benji, hagam it's the beginning, so it makes sense that what? Makes sense that it would happen. But af al pi kein, you can't be nitla shiurim. You can't come and say it makes more sense, less sense. L'maaseh by Yom it's not shchiach, and the makom lo shchicha, Shmuel lo gazru. But that's if you learn it's a gezeirah. That's if you learn it's a gezeirah. Benji, you're not with me. Come, let's go. Could you be with me? Yeah, you're not with me. But become—I'm saying a beautiful thought. I'm saying something very beautiful. Why by Yom shemutar, on the side that it's more chamur, you two shemiros balayla? It doesn't make sense. Huh? There's no b'feirush, so what? And the answer is, yeah, but you could be over the issur. What I mean, that's the whole problem, that you might come to do an aveirah. Isn't that תמיד לחשש? So either pshat is, lo shchiach; people don't do it. So therefore, lo gazru Rabbanan. אי יחוד is always asur by yom also. Yeah, but yichud is an issur; it's something else. Yichud is an issur as if one step closer to kirvah. Kirvah is asur min haTorah; yichud is asur mid'Rabbanan. It's not like a gezeirah. It's not a gezeirah; it's a Rabbanan made a geder. They created an issur geder, so you can't make day and night, mechalek between day and night. Hashem over here, that's a din shemirah. It's a din that you have to protect yourself. So two shemiros, that's the geder of two shemiros. It's a double protection, but by yom is lo gazru Rabbanan. So even if it's maful b'talisah, even if it's a case where it's mutar, but l'maaseh it's not shchiach, o dilma, or maybe not, or maybe eino chanami, yeah, or maybe not. Maybe eino chanami, where it's mutar, l'haful b'talisah, it would taka be an issur. I would say that according to the ra'ayah that if we pasken—I'm assuming—we have to go...

Rambam, he paskens like the Rosh or the Raivid. Pashtus, he paskens like the Raivid. Pashtus, he paskens like the Raivid, because when there's two yesh omrims, so it's yesh omrim basra; we always pasken like the second. K'shebarama, yesh two yesh omrims, poskim k'mo basra. So b'emes he paskens like the Raivid. So he paskens like the Raivid, and it would be a case of maful b'taliso, so then it should be asur. I would say that. I would be ready to say that if a person is a talmid chacham, a chaveir, it's asur. Takah. Usually we said, if you open, you did not lock the door, you're allowed to do this, right? So it comes out here, balayla, if you chatam, you don't lock the door... We're going to get there. We're not holding there yet. Soon we'll talk about that. Okay. Now, the Rosh. I hold the Rosh saying a major point. The Rosh is saying, Raivid, you learn it's a din shmira, and by yom it's not hagiah. I hold it's a regular din yichud, and therefore you don't need two; all you need is one, like regular yichud, and it's takah good by yom and by layla. It's the same halacha. You can't be mechalek. Let's read the Rosh now inside. Hagam, right? Says the Rosh like this: Yesh omrim she'asurah liyached. You see the Rosh's lashon? It's a yichud. Nah, that's a different lashon now, asurah liyached. Imoi by yom, k'mo by layla, because it's regular yichud. Regular yichud, there's no chiluk by yom u'valayla, v'ein tzarich lihyos shtei shmiros. Why? Because for regular yichud, you don't need it. Regular yichud, you don't need it. Can you please understand, why do you need two shmiros bichlal? Yes, because it's more chamur. What does that mean? What is he going to do? He's going to wake everybody up, or—I'm saying, when she's amongst the women and he's alone, what is he going to do? He's going to wake her up? No, maybe they'll go together, they'll do it. They'll sleep. We're afraid that they'll go together. That's what the pshat. We're not dealing with pritzim here. But that's the halacha, yichud al yedei misyached, two men with one woman, no? Two men with one woman. Two women with one man. You're not allowed, no. It's not chashash because they'll fall asleep and... Huh? It's not the chashash that they might fall asleep and he'll come out. That's not the chashash. The chashash is that... yichud, misyached. You have to have two. Again, if let's say you see her with five women in the room and he's alone in his—what's his name—why is it not enough? Because the girls are quiet. Not yichud. He's in his room, alone with no shamrim. Can he come out of that room? If he can come out of that room, so he's not alone. Okay, now, I mean, it's a regular—that's the case of yichud. The only shaylah would be, according to the Rosh, according to the Rosh, right, so how many shmiros do you need? One shmirah. Regular yichud, no? Regular yichud d'Rabbanan. How many shmiros do you need for regular yichud? One. So it's beautiful. I mean, the Rosh is beautiful, huh? The only shaylah is— I can't help you. That's halacha. If they're there to be shomer, what are we afraid? If these four women—this is his wife now, and then— The problem with other women, because his wife is going to be shomerim. They're not going to be sleeping with her. Right, if they're the shomrim there, if they're shomrim there, they know that their job is to be shomrim. What are they gonna do? They're gonna keep quiet? The husband is in his room alone, no shomrim, and she's with shomrim. What's gonna happen? What are we afraid? But this is his wife. And in melo what? She might sneak out. Sneak out, so that's... ...we're afraid. ...Sneak out, that's the thing. That's what I'm trying to... Oh, that's different. He's saying is that the one with two would be better, according to those shitos, because ishto mishameraso. Yeah. Not yichud. I'm talking about, like, this case. I'm not talking about yichud. I'm talking about this, our case, where this is his wife, okay? Chuppat niddah. I want to know, why do you need two shmirs? Why does he need and she need? Why isn't that enough that she's with her women and he's alone in his room, time, whatever? What are we choshesh, that she's gonna sneak out? But if they're shomrim, how are they gonna fall asleep?

Everybody's gonna fall asleep. That's the whole point. He's saying it's less of a... Okay, let's go weiter. Let's go weiter. Now, in the Shitas HaRosh, in the Shitas HaRosh, yeah, in the Shitas HaRosh, it's not clear. In the Shitas HaRosh, it's not clear if it's d'Oraisa or d'Rabbanan. When he talks about yichud, I guess whatever yichud is, yichud d'Rabbanan, that's machlokes Rishonim, I guess. In the Rosh, you don't have to go into the shaila if it's d'Oraisa or d'Rabbanan, whatever regular yichud is. L'choira, unless he learns that there's a new din yichud here, that it's shayach here, regular yichud is d'Oraisa, this is still yichud d'Rabbanan. It's not muchach. I'm trying to learn in the Rosh that it's regular yichud. Does that mean automatically that it's d'Oraisa or d'Rabbanan? Not necessarily. You can learn that regular yichud is d'Oraisa and this is still d'Rabbanan. Or you can learn that regular yichud is, huh? Yeah, so that's the Rosh. By the Rosh, lo mevu'ar, aval davar echad barur. By the Rosh, mevu'ar that it's yichud. In the Ra'avad it's mevu'ar that it's shemiras, like his lashon, it's mamash his lashon, yeah. V'yesh omrim d'balailah tzarich shtei shemiros, u'bayom atil l'hisyached. Kishmak. It's in shemiras, but bayom hu mutar l'hisyached. That's all. So the Rosh learns that it's a din in yichud, and therefore one shemira is good enough. And the Ra'avad's learning it's a special din of two shemiros. So therefore, by layla you need two shmiros and by yom. Now, the Rashba, the Rashba's shitah is that it's chamur, and you need two shmiros, hem by yom and hem by layla. So either the pshat's a new din, or there's a p'shita yichud which is more chamur, a shayich yichud which is more chamur. There's different levels to yichud. The Rashba holds you need two shmiros, side by yom and side by layla. So m'meila, two shmiros, a by yom or by layla, either the taich is that it's a new din, or the taich is that even yichud in the regular din, it depends on how much chashash there is. According to the level of chashash, that's how much. Now the shaila would be like this: what happens if, ein hachi nami, the situation calls for that there's more chashash. Maybe the pshat's only what the chachamim said. I don't know if you could come and make up on your own what's called more chashash, less chashash. The chachamim gave you cases; those are the cases. O dilma not. Or maybe we should learn from here, taka, that where the cases are more dangerous, for whatever reasons, maybe ein hachi nami, there's more chamurdike yichud. There's two types of yichud. There's yichud when there's less tiktak for yetzer, and there's yichud when there's more. Efshar, efshar. I'm just clarifying. Now, one thing for sure: the daas ha-mechaber is klar, it's the Rashba, that the hi she'eino v'hu yashen is by yom u'valayla. He's not mechalek, like we spoke earlier. Huh? I'm not saying it's only night, because we spoke, we made this diyuk, we made the diyuk. Remember we made this diyuk? I'm saying unless you say kipshuto, that he does not mechalek. I made this diyuk, we already spoke. Maybe yashen is a din in the yashen. Which I'll talk about. What happens if he goes to sleep by day? It's not muchach in the going to sleep by day. If you notice, which is I want to talk about, I hold it's a merudik diyuk. The Rama talks about being misyached, but what about sleeping? What would happen if they go to sleep by day? Is that worse of a case? If the heterim of lisyached is stam to be together, or even the pshat is even if they're sleeping, mamash the same pe'ulos that they did by night they do by day, an af al pi kein by yom is mutar. Pashut in the Mechaber there's no chiluk. Yashen, yom, laila, whatever it is, it's day and night. Pashut, the Mechaber is the shita of the Mechaber. Rama. The Rama brings two shitos, yesh omrim, yesh omrim. So the klalei ha-psak is that it's ki-yesh omrim, להחמיר. I want to have a diyuk like this, the following diyuk. When it says, ישן בין האנשים, והוא ישנה והיא ישנה בין הנשים, what's the plural? Yeah. Yeah. Do you need taka two anashim, or it's just a matter of...

He's by men and he's by women. Right, like as if there's a mechitza. There's the men's section, and it could be a shul that only has one person in the whole shul, but he's in the men's section. Let's say you have one person in the shul, what do you call it, the men's section. If you have one lady in the shul, like my father's shul, you have sometimes one lady there, right? So what's it called, the lady section? It's called the lady section. Maybe you don't need the plural. Maybe not. Maybe not, huh? Let's talk about it, huh? Maybe she has to be amongst the women. Can we talk? Let's, what do we call that? Let's navigate. Let's navigate a little. Okay. Pashut pshat is it doesn't make a difference, right? Pashut, it doesn't make a difference. It just means men's section and ladies' section. L'choira. Huh? Dafka, yeah. Pashut pshat, adaraba, two-two. So you like that you're supposed to have two more. Okay, so then it's noch beser, noch beser. The question is, do you mean men's section, or do you mean men's two and two? Okay. If it's a din, you need two, and you need shtei shomrim, right? You need shtei shomrim, right? So where does it say that you need four shomrim? I mean, what's wrong with two שמות? Why do you need four? Why do you need two and two? Why do you need two for him and two for her? What's wrong with two for both of them? I mean, the matzav is that they're together. I mean, they're there, no? I'm not so sure about that. You see, I want to talk to you about it. I'm not 100% sure how they're sleeping. How about if they're sleeping, each one in their bed? You can't sleep in your bed as long as the other people in the room? Don't throw בקיאים at me. I know you're בקיאים. I know about the beis Yosef with the bayis and the Rashba, and then the ... I know all the stuff. I did my research. Don't throw בקיאים at me, okay? Can we first learn before you throw בקיאים at me? שמואליק, שמואל, תאמין לי, הסלפון הזה לא שווה אפילו חצי מילה של השולחן ערוך. אפילו אלף ככה לא שווה חצי אות של מה שאנחנו מדברים. וכל חפציך לא ישוו לו. שום... זה לא שווה, לא שווה, לא שווה. Okay, now, תאמין לי, could you imagine a person, אומרים לבן אדם, שמע, נותנים בחינם כסף וזהב. רואים את הבן אדם הזה, הוא עומד על דייפר — איך אומרים דייפר? — חיתול, חיתול מלוכלך, ומסתכל על זה. אומרים לו, קח, שמע, זהב. אתה מסתכל על חיתול מלוכלך, אתה משוגע. Zeh moshel v'nimshal. Yes, moshel v'nimshal. Okay, you ready? Let's go. Listen carefully, yeah? Let's start again. Let's start again. Anashim v'nashim, men and ladies. All right, so do you need two men and two ladies? Okay. Or it just means mens and ladies. One is good enough. What does it mean? So let's clarify. Are we looking for shomrim? Are we looking for shmiris? So what are we looking for exactly? Are we looking for safeguards? So if you're looking for shomrim, what's wrong with two? You're right. Normally you have one shomer and the two together. One on her side, one on your side, and it's one. Why do you need two? What's wrong with two shomrim? What do you need four? Why does it say you need four shomrim? Why would you need four shomrim? Okay. If you learn that shmiros, so maybe the taich is safeguards, right? Maybe it's the matziv. It's not even so much the guy, hello, I'm a shomer. It's to divide the men section and the ladies section. Oh, I don't hold that they're sleeping separately in the rooms, because it's not... I'm not 100% sure. I was looking at the lashon.

Lashon does not say separate them in the rooms. I think they can sleep in the same bed. Halacha l'maaseh, and they do, by the way. The minhag is that— no, I don't mean the same bed. I'm saying the same beds. He sleeps in his bed, she sleeps in— like a regular, normal, with six people in the room. So what makes it bein ha'nashim u'vein ha'anashim? And the teretz is because there's two groups. It's the groups that make nashim and nashim. It's not the partitions. What do I gain? I'll tell you what I gain. Because if the taich is you're looking for shomrim, right? If you're looking for shomrim, the issue of where they're sleeping is completely irrelevant. But if you mean bein, which is the lashon, the lashon is mashma like it's grouping it. She sleeps with the men, it's like two groups. What creates the group? I want to know what creates the group. If you're going to tell me that they have to sleep at two opposite ends of the room, not one person says— I looked, I couldn't find one person that says— I looked all over, I couldn't find one person that says that they should sleep at two opposite ends of the room. Not one. I looked, I searched. You saw it anywhere? I'm asking. Where are these explaining the lashon? Why is that lashon? Why do you need groups? Oh, so I'm tying a me'iri kevor, because it's not about shomrim, it's about separations. We want to be mafrid between the two of them, safeguards. Huh? Because it doesn't make it bein ha'nashim. You're looking to make groups. I'm asking, why are the groups everything separation? I'm asking, why separation? You say groups, it's circular. Maybe. Maybe. I'm not ready, because I'm not ready to finish yet. No, no, no, come on, give me that. Ah. Im yesheinim b'cheder echad, then they don't need it. It's about groups. We're going to talk about it. I hold that's one of the raayos. I know, I know. It's about cheder echad. It's not about shomrim. It's about shmiros. It's about separation. It's about dividing them. I understand, I understand. It's about pulling them apart. It's about pulling them apart. You know how I'm going to tell you a lomdushe vort? By making it not miyuchad, which means the moment I destroy the yichud, then they're separate. You can still have yichud when you have one, one, except for ishto mishameresi, besides the problem of ishto mishameresi. So in order—huh? But that's halacha. You're not allowed to be misyached one with two men. If he has one guy, so a woman's not allowed to be misyached with two men. That's halacha. Two men and one woman. Yeah, but I'm trying to say something else. Right, but one second, let's work it out. I don't know, but let's go by. I don't know. I don't know. Let's navigate. I'm still holding my navigate. There's something about שבת. It's not about shomrim, it's about shmirus. Now let me finish. Let me tell you what I want. You ready? Put away the Badei HaShulchan, okay? Don't bother me with the Shulchan. Put away Shevet HaLevi, okay? Because now I'll hit you with a stick. Just put it away. Now, Chazon Ish — and now the shevet goes בלי saying — and what's the name over there, Otzas HaChochma, whatever you have over there, Otzas HaMiddah, whatever. Okay. The Chazon Ish, in siman tzadi aleph, os gimmel, says an interesting vort. According to the Ra'avad, שחמירו בכלא, ולא משכחת ב' תנאים or ב' תנאים, שלייחוד מספיק, אלא באינו שתיים לכל אחד ואחד. What's wrong? Once we bring ketanim into the picture, right, which is the Rama — we'll get to that soon — but let's say you bring the ketanim into the picture.

So it's good, right? So why don't you just need, right, base ktanim? Because the katan is not a problem in the yichud. So now you have two shmiras. What do you want? One, you need one katan and one ktanah. Have two ktanim or two ktanos. Ela sheb'einon shtayim l'chol echad v'echad. Again. Right, that's one, right? But notice it's a boy guy for the boy and a girl guy for the girl, right? What's wrong if you have two boys or two girls? The katan also should have a katan. No, either one has two or the other has two. Yeah, what's wrong with that? No. Bishlama if it's grown-ups, so then you run into the problem that the grown-ups have a yichud with each other. Once you have ktanim, which is not shayach to yichud, and they're just there to be the cameras, and you need two cameras, so have two cameras, a boy, two boys or two girls. Or two girls. It's a great kasha. Chazonish asks this kasha. He doesn't understand what's going on here. Chazonish. And the teretz is, the teretz is, ela b'einon shtayim l'chol echad v'echad. Two shmiras, l'chol echad v'echad. Huh? In the Raivid, I'm saying. The Raivid. At nighttime, with the two shmiros, when you need two. I understand. So he learns that the Rama paskens the Raivid, and he paskens the ktanim because it does fit into the Raivid, and then he asks, so by the Raivid at night, it should work out that all you need is two. That's the Chazon Ish's kashya. The answer is, you need two l'chol echad v'echad. You can't just have two, period, but you need two l'chol echad v'echad. What is he saying, the Chazon Ish? He's saying something. He's saying in Hilchos Yichud it's not a problem. It's more. Each person needs two. It's nashim and anashim because it has to have two on each side, and not because of the shimur. No. The separation. It's separated. It's something — you're on this side and you're on that side. There's a men's section and a ladies' section. With four people, you still have a mishmash. With six people, you have a men's section and a ladies' section. Even if it's in one room. What do you want? You want to read it inside? You want to read it inside? No, I'm saying, work with me. You know, you have to understand what I want. My mind is navigating. You know what it is? I understand that at first it sounds, wait a minute, why? You're doing that, why? You're saying why. There's a reason why I'm saying it. It's because I saw the Chazon Ish, and all of a sudden it hit me like a lightning bolt. Wait a minute, what are you talking about? For yichud it's good enough, so what are you saying? I don't know what you're talking about. What are the beis smiros? What are you saying, l'chalek, v'yachad? What do you mean? Why? What's wrong with having the two shmiros, two tanim, two t'nos? Some reason, it's not enough two. It's two l'chol echad v'echad. What is that all about? What, you need four? You need five? Who said that? Okay. You want to do it inside or you'll do it later? Okay, whatever. Okay. You hear, rabosai? Gevaldik, huh? Okay. Now, I want to go one step further. Anashim v'nashim, right? Said? No? Okay. Anashim v'nashim, you hear? Are they in separate rooms? Hem bechadarim nifradim? Are they in separate places? Now, the truth is, it's mashma that they're in the same cheder, right? Because the Ramak continues that if they're in different chadarim, there's no sugya, so they're in the same cheder. But maybe the pshat is they have to be in separate places. Maybe taka bein anashim means that you have to be mafrid.

I want to tayne an interesting chiddush. Maybe not, maybe they can sleep together. But danoshim acherim creates that separation, like I told you. And I'll show you where the nafkamina would be. Listen to an interesting nafkamina. They're sleeping alone in the cheder. The door is open, and the shomrim are outside. So in the cheder, they're alone. But in hilchos shomrim, you have it because it's—they're there. The door's open. So I want to tayne like this: if the ikar is that you should have shomrim, like in hilchos yichud, you have it. But if it's a din in being mafrid between the two of them, maybe you don't have it. Once there's no yichud, memeila that's the hafradah. In lomdus, in Cheshbon I could say not that way. I could say that there's a very big nafkamina. So I want to tell you over, I saw in the Sefer Dvar Halachah, brings down from the Chazon Ish that it's taka mutar to be in a different room. Yeah, it's mutar for them to be in a different room. Yeah, and even if the door of the shomrim is not directly—that you could look right into, like it's the same—even if it's down the hall, let's say, the shomrim are there. It's good enough. What is the Chazon Ish learning? You can't say you separated them. You have shomrim. The shomer is good enough. Yeah, you're learning within shomer, yeah, within shomer. As long as you have the shomer, they're watching you. You have two people are watching you. They're together. They're in the same room. The door is a little bit open, somewhat. So there's no yichud shomer. Did you separate them? I don't think you separate them, unless you say chiddush. Whenever there's no yichud and there's shomrim, that's called separation. That itself is like a separation. Yeah, l'mashal, you have a thing on the same table and you put something in between. It's not a shomer, it's separation, right? It's a reminder. It's a separation. The door is open. You have an open door. Yes, it's a shomer. But you can't say you're separate. What do you mean? You're definitely separated. You can't say you're separated. It's a shomer. You come close the door. I got the one asked somebody, how could you have this come by yichud, be matir it? The door is open, maybe you come and close the door. What? You leave the window open, the door open, somewhat. Two seconds, close the door and it's over. Right? Like the baditcher who said, I forgot to close the window, I forgot to close the shade. Okay, so now you closed it. Heretz says, kol zman you're in a matzav where you're not together. I don't care that you could be in two seconds together. U'maaseh you're not together, that's not the issur. Very shvach in hilchos shomrim, but in hilchos hafrada, you're not together. Yeah? Maybe, what stops you two seconds to close the door? Heretz says, l'maaseh you're not together. It would be a very big chiddush if the taich is you need bein anashim, bein anashim separate. I don't know if this is called sefer, but if you need shomrim, you have it. A few more minutes. Let's go. Let's finish. Ramo writes, im eina b'cheder echad, yeah, good, im eina b'cheder echad, if they're not in one room, then it's mutar. Now I want to tell you that it's not very clear what he's talking about. Reishis kol, are we talking about rooms that are closed? Do you need that they—let's say you have two rooms, right? They're in separate rooms. Do the rooms have to be locked? Maybe, yeah, maybe, I don't know. No, no, no. It says we're going to get to that in a few minutes, one minute. First let's talk about rooms. Let's say it's in one apartment, two rooms. Maybe, the rooms have to be locked, but he doesn't say it. He just says two rooms. It doesn't say one word about locked. Okay. What happens if the rooms are mamash next door to each other? Yeah, the rooms are mamash next door. Is that also considered the Ramo's דין, eina b'cheder echad? What happens if it leads one into the other? It's mamash—okay. What happens if the doors lock from the inside, but they don't lock from the outside, so they lock themselves into their room? Maybe they can always open it. They can always open it. I mean, what's the case of cheder? So if you look at the Shevet HaLevi, and that's—

The before was talking about bayis. He says, l'choira, the old days the chadarim were like two different houses, and that's the heter. It's like two different houses, there's a heter. But where it's one, where it's just one apartment, two different chadarim, then it's takke asur. Shevet HaLevi, Mistama so, the Beis Yosef, okay. And then he says, what happens if you're in a hotel, right? So you have a corridor which leads from one to the other, right? One's to say maybe a chanami, that's called two different apartments, because the corridor is reshus harabim. It's not anybody can walk this, and that makes it into two different apartments. Okay. Agav, I want to discuss in the case of the Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish says that the door can be open, right, and the shomer can be on the outside. So first of all, the case is that it's open. So I want to clarify in the Chazon Ish what happens if the door is locked, closed, but without a lock, and the shomer have the right to come in whenever they want. So if you learn it's in the shmirah meaning that it's separate, they're not separate, they're together in a room. But if you learn it's al shomer, maybe a chanami, they have the right to come in whenever they want. I was matir this once. We had a case here like that, apartment, the upstairs, the downstairs, they went for Shabbos maiseh. So I told them that you should tell the upstairs people that they should come to check on you. You don't know when. At any given time, they should come a few times during the night to check on you. So there's a mirsas, yeah. You're not choshesh. You could be choshesh, but they're warning you that we're gonna come. We're coming. We're warning you that we're coming. Okay. Now, again, if you need separate, you know, if you're in a room that's closed, it's closed, because this talks about a room that's open. But if the taiches shomrim, maybe even when it's closed, as long as you're telling them to come in. The minhag, Rama says the minhag is to take tanim. Now, does the Rama mean the minhag for ktanim lekula or lechumra? Is it a kula or a chumra? What's this ktanim? Lechumra. Why? You what about by night? Well, I don't know if that's what he means. He means that? He means even by night you take a katan. No, no, no. The minhag likach katan eitzel chok, katan eitzel kalah, is even by night. And then, ve'ein misyachdin bayom ela b'lo katan katan. It's two dinim. No, it's clear. It's going back on the Raivid. Is it a chumra or kula? It could be a kula, that even though they're not gedolim, right, and maybe you're not afraid of them. You're not afraid. Ktanim, it's not so afraid. Or maybe it's a chumra. You should take ktanim because it's tznius. It's better to take ktanim because it looks nice, and you have grown-ups, men, ladies sleeping together. Chazanish, Dvar Halacha learns it's tznius. The Gemara says the minhag. The question is what the minhag is. Why not? What's ishlecht frumies? Frumies, frumies, minhag. Okay. Ayin Chazon Ish. The Chazon Ish learns exactly what I just told you, that it has to do with tznius. B'etzem, gedolim, ktanim is the same ma'alah. In Hilchos Yichud, al tznius you should take time. Nafka mina. I want to tie in a chiddush lahalacha. The nafka mina would be: what is the shiur of the katan? How old is the katan? The Shach says that you need a middle ground, that they should know what bi'ah is, but eina mosrim atzman, that they're not going to want to do it. They know what it is, but they're not going to want to do it. The Shach in se'if katan yud daled, right? You need that it should be yod'im, ve'einam mosrim atzman lebi'ah. Kesi, pleisi, and I found the Ben Ish Chai also. Od Yosef Chai is Ben Ish Chai, right? In Parashas Shoftim, os vav, gives you years. It's between nine and twelve, nine and twelve. The Bach, the Sam Sofer, Even HaEzer, chelek beis, siman tzadik vav, six, seven to nine, much earlier. Torah Shleimah says, no, Shach, you're wrong. Afilu...

Mois matzmu labiah, there's no problem. It's okay. The katan could be even mois matzmu labiah. What's the machloikes? Shach says you can't have mois matzmu labiah. Tosfos Shlom says you could have. We could say like this: The Shach learned that the katan is lchumra. It's lchumra that the pshat is that we want that they should be tzanua, lchumra, right? So then you need at least mesurin atzmo lbiah. I'm sorry, sheloy mois atzmo lbiah, right? Because you want a chumra, you want to be machmir. So the pshat is you want that they—eino mois atzmo lbiah, but they know enough, and that's the chumra al tznius, okay? Masheinkein the Tosfos Shlom learns—let's say the other way around. Could we do it the other way around? Okay, the Shach learns that it's about yichud. ממילא you can't have mois atzmo lbiah. The Tosfos Shlom learns that it's a din tznius, so we don't care if it's mois atzmo lbiah; it doesn't make a difference. Just like gedolim, right? As long as it's ketanim, so it's good enough. Okay, I guess we'll have to continue with—maybe tomorrow, huh? Maybe I'll call you up tomorrow, huh? Maybe a little bit, just to—