Hilchos Dam Besulim: Bi’as Mitzvah, Perishah, and Whether the Gezeirah Concerns Blood or Bi’ah

Transcript

Din dam besulim. So right away, when you learn this siman, the first thing that comes to you is the heading, which is mashma that it's something about dam besulim, right? Learning about dam besulim. Now what is dam besulim? Dam besulim, pashtus, is dam makeh. So we're going to learn about dam besulim, which is dam makeh. But then when you learn the Shulchan Aruch, the Shulchan Aruch's mashma that it's not so much about the dam besulim too much. It's more about the bo'el, that he's bo'el b'ilas mitzvah, u'peirish. It never tells us the din of dam besulim. What is it? Hakohenes is a psulah bo'el b'ilas mitzvah, v'gomer ביאתו, u'peirish miyad, afilu badku v'lo matza dam, temeiah, right? That the woman is tamei. So it's mashma that we're not so much addressing the dam besulim as much as the woman, that she's tamei. Pashtus, it's not a big chiddush, meaning it's not such a big deal, because all he's trying to do is tell us the halacha of a woman that has dam besulim, right? So he says it in such a way that it's, if you're bo'el— maybe they should... the olam, the olam there should be a little... making a lot of noise, huh? Okay. Yep. Again, you know, what should have he written, what shouldn't he have written, I don't know if it's such starkediyukim. But it's definitely bolet that the siman in the Shulchan Aruch would be about dam psulim, and when you read it, it's more about the boel, that the boel is poirish, she's tameiah. Is there a reason for that? So I think there's a reason for it. I think the Shulchan Aruch chose his words very carefully. Why? What's the pshat that it's aser? Maises dam maka, so why should they aser it? So the Rosh, perek yud, halacha aleph, says that there's no chashash dam. There's no chashash dam, nidah at all, but rather because sometimes there could be dam nidah. Let's say you have a begeres, it's very possible that it will be dam nidah. So even where it's not possible for it to be dam nidah, the hainu even a ketanah, hishvu kol habiilos. They considered all the biilos the same, that we gave you halacha that your boel is poirish. So that they talk about. Is it dam chimud or is it dam psulim? Whatever it is, pashtus it has nothing to do with dam nidah. That's what the Rosh says. It's not about dam nidah mixed in with the dam psulim. That's what he's saying, his vort. The Rosh's vort is that even though there's no shaylah of nidah, hishvu kol habiilos. They made all the biilos the same. Because by gerus there is a chashash maybe there'll be nidah, right? So therefore, they assered all the bi'ilos. It's perek yud, halacha aleph, in Maseches Niddah, in the Gemara. The Rashba, the Rashba says that actually this is regular dam makkah. Ein lecha makkah gedolah מזו. You don't have more of a makkah than this. What more makkah could it be than you yourself caused her to bleed? What's there to talk about? It's a makkah. Ein lecha makkah gedolah מזו, u'vechol zos, halacha is that the chacham asru. Why? Because normal dam makkah would toleh, because who knows when it's going to go away. It could be a long-term makkah, we don't know. Ma she'ein kein here, you know. One time and it's finished. Dam makkah. You take care of the pesulim, it's over. That's it. It's not a long-term makkah, therefore the chachamim asru it. That's the shita of the Rashba. Again, the Rashba says that we know for sure it's a makkah. U'vechol zos, so one-time thing, you know, once you do the pesulim, it's taken care of.

Ein kein. A regular makka could be a long-term thing. Now, I have two problems with this Rashba. Problem number one is, so what? So what? Long term, short term. I mean, if it's not makka, it's not makka. You know, teliyah b'makka is even worse because you have to be toleh b'makka. Here there's nothing even to be toleh. You made a makka. What's there to talk about? You punch someone in the face. Well, yeah, maybe it's a makka. It's a makka. You punch someone in the face. What's there to talk about? So what would be the pshat in the Rashba? The Rashba is saying, oh, regular makka will be makka. This makka—I'm going to say the opposite—regular makka we can be meikel. Mashenkin over here, we'll aser. It's a vadai makka. Second of all, who says it's a one-time thing? Is it a one-time thing, taka? They're not keeping quiet. Who says it's a one-time thing? Who said? You know, some people could go again and again. It turns into a whole story. And more than that, more than that, you don't realize that she could become a niddah in the middle. It's such a difficult matzav. What does the Rashba mean, that it's so easy and therefore the chacham assered it? What, a makka at a one-time, you're not toleh? It's because it's easy, because you can get it over with. The time will pass. Who said? Maybe it'll be a makka and then again. Sheyachol lihyos shlosha pa'amim she'od yetzei dam. Veyachol lihyos sheyihyeh niddah shtei pa'amim ba'emtza. You know how many times people have dam, dam makka for two, three months? I'm sorry, dam psulim for two, three months. I don't understand this Rashba. Okay, so this is the Rosh and the Rashba. So, nachama. The Rosh learns that it's not about dam nidah; it's lo plug. The Rashba learns it's dam makah, but for one time, okay. I didn't see in the Rishonim that it's about dam nidah. That I didn't see. Rishonim are mashma that it's not about dam nidah. I don't understand. I looked at the Badei HaShulchan; he writes it's about dam nidah. I don't know where he got it from. The Badei HaShulchan starts off the siman like this: V'choshesh that there's dam nidah nichlal, right? You found this somewhere in the Rishonim that says we're choshesh for dam nidah that's nichlal? Yeah? It's not the Rashba. In the Rif. That's how the Rishonim brings the Rif. Let me see. Go ahead, read it. You saw it? It's not there, right? We're going to talk about that. Yeah, yeah, everybody's looking. I didn't find. He says it what? Who says this? An explanation of the Rif. An explanation of the Rif. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this part. Maybe, maybe. Somebody said something. No, no, the Rosh said—the Rosh is saying is that it's a takanas chachamim. The Rashba is saying it's a derabbanandike chumra, whatever. We're asur, dam. Then I guess there's a third shita that says that there's a nafka mina that maybe me'urav in it is dam nidah. Me'urav in it is dam nidah. Okay. Now, what is the chiluk? Okay, obviously it's the way the Beis Yosef explains the Rif. Okay, good. I didn't see that, I didn't catch that, but there is a third shita. Okay. What would be the nafka mina between the three shitos? L'maaseh, what's the nafka mina between the three shitos? All right, so again, nachon, get clearly the three shitos. Shita number one, lo plug on the bi'us. Shita number two, lo plug on the dam makor. Shita number three, we're choshesh that maybe it's me'urav dam nidah included. So the first thing that's obvious to me: one is a safek d'Oraisa. If you're choshesh by every dam psula that maybe there was dam nidah included, so it's a real chashash, chashash d'Oraisa, unless it's not real, it's just a shemah, it's just derabbanan, I just know it's even the Rif, even that shita is not mamash a real chashash, but Chachamim said, you know what, let's be choshesh, shema, meaning it's not a shema of shema, it's—

It's a takanah with a shemah. It's not the shemah, and therefore there's a takanah. There's a takanah to be choshesh for the shemah. You hear the difference? Actually, Teis. So the truth is, the truth is, a few things, right? Machlokes between shloisha shitos. So אני רוצה להגיד חידוש שלא מצאתי, אבל זה הגיוני. When you learn it, it's obvious. Im nagid k'shitas haRif, maybe, tzarich latzet that it's a safek d'Oraisa, because you're choshesh for nida. Ah, you'll ask a kash from Teis. What do you mean, from Teis? Because since there was a bi'ah, and maybe there was even a hargashah, maybe, because every bi'ah, we have that it masks over, יכול להיות שזה מכסה ההרגשה. So maybe it's taka safek d'Oraisa according to the Rif, unless you learn that all he means is that the takanah was to be choshesh for a shemah, but eino chanami, it's not a real shemah, which I don't know why. I mean, if you hold it could happen, so maybe it's like every other case of a takanah. I don't know. This you'll speak to Rav Fall afterwards. All I'm saying is, I repeat the three shitos. I don't understand the Rosh. Can you explain? What's the chashash? I'll repeat over the three shitos. The three shitos are as follows. It begins with the yesod: dam besulim l'chumra is mutar, because it's dam makah. So then what's the problem? So the Rosh says the problem is, let's say she's a bogeres, right? So it's shayach that it's nidah also. I mean, there's no reason to say that it's not nidah. It could be nidah too, right? So even where it's not nidah, we aser, and the pshat is all the bi'os asuros. Finished, that's all. Lo plug. Every time you make bi'ah... First time, we worry, okay? We have to worry. Why? I just told you, because a bygeres has very little psulim, and then there's dam. Very shayach that it comes from dam nidah. And people are going to come and say, Ah, it's dam psulim. That's what they're going to say. Eh, it's nothing. So therefore, we asser all dam psulim. What's your shaila? What's your shaila? No, no, what's the shaila? Yeah? Good. The Rashba learns, the Rashba learns that the pshat is because this dam makkes oiver quickly, which I don't understand, because who said? Mechtais is oiver quickly. Who said? Okay. Third of all, I mean later on I'll have a pshat in the Rashba, but right now let's leave it as a kasha. Third of all, the Rif. Rif comes and says because maybe there'll be something mixed in over there, safek, okay? So the truth is, it's a very good safek, paka good safek. Why? There was a bi'ah. Bi'ah sometimes covers over a gasha. We also learned that bi'ah is gorim sometimes dam. We learned it in the sugyas of machmas tashmish, that the bi'ah could cause dam to come, right? So, and then there's dam chimud. There's a lot of things that could happen over here, right? So we're choshesh that it's mixed in with dam, so then it's a safek d'Oraisa. And if it's a safek d'Oraisa, so we should be more chomer according to that shita than the other two shitos, since the other two shitos are only d'Rabbanan. One of them is a lo plug, the other one is a takanah d'Rabbanan. Maybe even a lo plug is less than the d'Rabbanan, and I don't even know the Gedarim. It could be the Rosh's lo plug is even less. Hagam his word is, I don't know if you saw the lashon of the Rosh, we gave it a din of chomer shebechamuros of a nidah. It's a very starka lashon. So even in the Rashi, hebengi that says that it's a lo plug, the implication is that it's a regular lashon of nida. We gave it a din of the chamurah shebachamuros should be a regular nida, right? Right, but he uses the word chamurah shebachamuros. I'm saying it's—I understand it's not muchach. In other words, what it could be is he's giving you the example of chamurah shebachamuros. But l'maaseh, he uses the word like should be like a nida. He uses those words. What does he say? What? Yeah. No, but what's in the beginning? In the beginning he says that it has a din of a nida. Chaf, what, what? How does he start? He doesn't say the word—I remember him using the word that it's mamash like a nida. Okay, so you don't have the beginning lashon. You don't have the beginning lashon of the Rashi.

Look at the lashon of the Rashba. Okay. Now, okay. Now, either way, you look at the lashon of the Rashba side. Either way, we gave it like the chamur sheb'chamuros, lo plug. I don't know. You have to know what the geder of the lo plug is. How strict is the lo plug? The Takanas Rabbanan is less, more, I don't know. But it should definitely be less than if you say it's de'oraisa. What would be the nafka mina, which I didn't see the poskim really talk about? What happens if you have a safek? Let's say if you have a safek, if you were ba'al, a safek if you came and you're dam psulim. So on a safek dam psulim, let us come and say safek de'oraisa, according to the Rif, that it's de'oraisa. Milchori, if the reason why dam psulim is aser— Huh? No, I'm asking, what happens if you made hara'ah? What happens if you made hara'ah? Should make a nafka mina in these shitos. Let's say you made hara'ah. According to the Rif, you'll be tamei because it's something de'oraisa. Why not? Because maybe the Rif is only talking about by kibar bi'ah, the dam goes back to the makor. What's the difference? Even according to the Rif, it's a shemei arba, but he's matir to be bo'el, right? Obviously. Yeah, even if the dam is— Not a serious thing. Why don't you say it a little bit better? Why don't you say it a little bit better? Okay, what I want to say is, when there's dam, there's a safek that maybe the dam has other dam in it. Again, again, again. Yeah, but if there's no dam— Again, again, again. Slow, slow. Are we choshesh? The blood is lost, and every time the blood is lost, are we also choshesh there's dam nidah? So then there's a very big problem, according to the Rif. According to the Rif, every time you're bo'el, you have a safek d'Oraisa l'chumra. See, every bi'las mitzvah is a safek d'Oraisa l'chumra. Maybe she's a regular nidah. Is that what it means? What? Maybe. You don't know. So that's why I'm here. That's why I came from Lakewood. Two days in a row, I came for that. I want to know. I want to know. You just learned the Rif, you hear? So how come when I learned the Rif, that was the first thing that came to my mind and didn't come to you? It sure came to your mind. I don't see it. You're talking about a safek, maybe she's a regular nidah. You mean safek d'Oraisa? Is that what you're referring to? What is he referring to? Unless he said chiddush. Say, I'm already a chiddush. We're not choshesh that she became a nidah. We're choshesh on dam sulim to aser it because maybe there's dam nidah involved also, which is a tremendous chiddush. In other words, the story is not about a nidah. It's about the dam, right? But because there is dam, harei dam lefanecha, that dam might have been mixed in with what? With dam nidah. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I would answer if there's no dam. Hashem is there, you don't see it. But it's all about once there's dam, maybe in it it's mixed in. Yeah, but if Hashem is there, then she'd still be d'Oraisa. No, it's not. It doesn't work that way. Think about it. What is Hashem is there? You're missing the point. The point isn't the safek if she became a nidah, nah. It's not about a safek nidah. It's to aser, which is what you meant, but you didn't say with the lomdish, the right lomdish kneitch. When the dam is there, that dam will aser because shemen's dam nidah, which is a chiddush, because by someone not afraid she's a nidah. Had we been afraid she's a nidah, there's no sugya. That's de'oraisa. That's not what it's about. But the safek is, when there is dam, you don't know what the dam is, we'll be choshesh the dam is with dam nidah. So we're not choshesh on the ma'aseh she became a nidah, what we're choshesh for is that the dam might be dam nidah, okay? I'll tell you what I want. According to the Rosh, is it about the bi'ah or is it about the dam? It's about the bi'ah. They asered the bi'ah, l'hashvis kol habi'ilos yachad. According to the Rashba, it's about the dam. Then it comes out, according to the Rosh, you could say that, even if it's just ha'arah. So before we get to that, one thing I have is the Shulchan Aruch. Remember I asked you, how come the Shulchan Aruch does not talk about dam nidah temeiah? I don't see. He started off saying din dam besulim, and then he never said that we aser dam nidah, we pasul dam nidah, and talk about the dam nidah. What does it say?

Say, hakoneis es hapsul, bo'el bilas mitzvah, pairish. It's a din about the bi'ah. According to the Rosh, it's gevaldig. It's a takanah on the bi'ah rishonah. The bi'ah rishonah makes her tameiah. Are we afraid of dam nidah? It's not about dam nidah. Are we afraid of dam psul? Maybe not also not. Because even where there's no dam psul—not dam psul, where there's no dam nidah, I'm sorry, excuse me, where there's no dam—but the pshat is, since there are cases where there might be dam nidah, so hishvu kol habi'ilos yachad. So they gave a din on the bi'ah rishonah. You should know that every time it's a bi'ah rishonah, she's a nidah. Let me say it again. Why aren't you writing this down? This is good. Good, I'll say it again till you understand it. What do you want from me? It's very simple. Okay. According to the Rosh—tishma—according to the Rosh, ma sugya פה? Ha'im danin al hadam? Lo. We gave the bi'ah—hishvu kol habi'ilos, that's his lashon, hishvu kol habi'ilos yachad. All bi'ilos come out with the same halachah, that what? She's tameiah afterwards. Because since by a bo'geres she might be taka tamei, so therefore whatever it is, it's always tamei. It's about the bi'ah, that whenever you're bo'el, bi'ah rishonah, we're mesaken she's tameiah. The lashon of the Shulchan Aruch is that. The lashon of Shulchan Aruch was never about the dam. It's about the guy. When he's koines her, he's poirish because she's tameiah. Ze alah... koyel ha'odom, goimer u'poirish. Ze alav, ze din al habi'ah, a koines. Mashenkein, according to Rashba, it's very much about the dam, that we asser dam makah of dam besulim. Not holding yet. Again, according to the Rosh, what is the takanah? The dam besulim is aser? The bi'ah, that every time you bo'el, kol habi'ilos shavos, all bi'ilos, no matter who you live with, there's a bi'ilah, you'll be tameiah. Does he use the words kol habi'ilos shavos? Are those words there? Is it a takanah that when you're bo'el bi'lah rishonah, it's as if, faktlich, she's a begeres? It's a takanah on a bi'ah, that even though you're living with a ketanah, still the chashash is as if you'd be living with a bogeres. Mah she'ein kein, the Shulchan Aruch talks about the bi'ilah. Lashon what? Kol habi'ilos. Huh? Lashon what? Oh, so if you look, you know, let's take out the Rosh. Let's take out the Rosh. Let's see the Rosh inside. The Rashba, the Rashba, you hear? The Rashba is learning that it's about... Dam maka, riff. Riff I was telling you that it's about that whenever there's dam, we'll make dam pesulim into dam nidah because we're choshesh dam pesulim is dam. Let me show you an interesting nafka mina. What happens if they go to a doctor, which happens often, happens often, yeah? The woman couldn't do bi'ah, couldn't do it. She has very strong, strong pesulim, and a lot of times the husband can't do it, so they go to a doctor and they're motzi the pesul. So this is a machlokes haposkim. What's the machlokes? This is the machlokes: if you learn it's a din in the dam, this is dam pesul. She's tamei. But if it's a din in the bi'ah, there was no bi'ah. There's no problem. The sugya is about a kainis. It's about a person who makes a bi'ah. You know, says this chiddush, R' Moshe. R' Moshe paskens that if you're motzi the pesulim, al yedei machshir, it's not at all; it's only al yedei bi'ah. So we can talk about it. You have to wait slowly. I have to. You know what it is? I'm being generous by letting you understand what I'm saying, so therefore at the same time, patience. I'd rather just get it through, you know.

Just go through it, say everything in one shot, but it's not. I want to give you to understand. So Moshe's saying a chiddush, that if it's sheloi derech bi'ah—okay, read the Rosh. Go ahead, read it. You have it? You have it? Read it. Read, read, read. To give it a din nida, go ahead, now read. Oh, sheloi, it's not because of yatza dam min hamakor, yeah? Okay. Go ahead. Oh, it's bi'as mitzvah. Bi'ilah—talking about the bi'as mitzvah, la'kol mesurah. Bi'as mitzvah la'kol mesurah. Go ahead. Yeah. So we gave you the bi'as mitzvah. Gave you the bi'as mitzvah. Ki'ilu he was bo'el a boi keris. So it's clearly, right? This bi'ah, it's as if you're being bo'el a beis gerus. So it's not about the dam psulim. I'm going to talk about that. That's my shitah. That's exactly, that's why I came from Lakewood. That's why I'm here. That's why I'm here. So it's mamash why I'm here. It's not about dam psulim. We didn't aser dam psulim. That's not what it says here. The bi'ah. We told you it's as if you were bo'el a beis gerus. Whatever the halacha should be by beis gerus, halacha by this bi'ah too. Okay. So what happens if you take out the psulim without taking bi'ah, without having a bi'ah? It should be mutar. And this is a machlokes haposkim. R' Moshe is matir it. Most poskim aser it. They say, he brings it down, what happens if you do it al yedei machshavah? I'm sure everybody talks about it. Yeah, everybody talks about it. Okay. Now, let's talk about another nafka mina. The Darkei Teshuvah discusses a mukas eitz, a woman doesn't have psulim. A mukas eitz, a woman who doesn't have psulim. Now, if it's an almana or a grushah, hakol modim that there's no problem of dam psulim. But by mukas eitz, l'choira it should have been the same thing, no? So this is a machlokes haposkim. The Maharshal in Kesubos, daf daled amud aleph, says a mukas eitz, a psulah. What's, ein psulim, what's the ba'ayah? The darkei teshuva brings down machlokes poskim and ma'ases, and he brings down the Badei HaShulchan both days. Okay, he brings both days. How could there be a machlokes? You want to explain to me what could the machlokes be? There's no psul. How? What? What are you—? Oh. So I would have wanted him to say that, but he doesn't say that. He should say, well, kasei, you don't know if it's complete. I would have said that. Since you don't know, so what does the Maharsham— Maharsham says you do know. Maharsham means it's a safek. Fine. I would have done that. I could play that game. You know, I was ready to play that game. Maharsham, you don't know, it's possible, it's maybe, and I knew he was going to do that because that's what he does. That's the way he likes to bother and to pick at the Rishonim and Acharonim. Fine. That's not how they bring it down. They bring down a simple shaila, maybe a mukas eitz, af al pi. Why af al pi? Can you explain to me that— and what's the teretz? Nu? Bi'ur Rishonim, nu. It's a takanah, bi'ur Rishonim. What's the— I mean, it's open. It's an open machlokes poskim. It's not a make-it-up. You know what? You read it. Take out the Badei HaShulchan.

You'll see that he doesn't make it into a sefer and a story. It's not. It's machlokes haposkim. I'm telling you, if you learn—why didn't you write this down? This is an unbelievable shailah. If you ever want to be a rav, this is a mamash shailah, halacha l'maaseh. A woman who comes, I'm פסול. What's now? Does she have—she could be not. It's machlokes haposkim. So why should you have to wait seven days for what? There's no dam psul. You know what the teretz is? It's not about dam psul. It's about the bi'ah. I mean, it's open. You can't get more open than this darkei teshuvah. You can't get more open than this in that shailah. He brings the machshir. Who? Marsha. No, machshir. Machshir. What does he bring? He paskens against Rav Moshe, מסתמא. Nobody likes Rav Moshe. So he makes a chiluk: if there's blood or not blood. Ah, yeah, that's his bizayon. You know that that's his thing. I proved to a guy this morning on the bus that every time there's a need in the poskim to be matir, you'll have his thing that in case it's mamash dam—mamash dam, mamash dam. You notice throughout the whole sefer it's like that. So he was laughing his head off, the guy. He says, Wow. He says, Because that's mamash what he says in this case. How do you know? I said, Because that's how I know. I know he does that. Shevet Halevi, whenever he talks that it's mutar, but if it's mamash dam, but—ksamim, the gris—but if it's mamash dam, you remember he spoke about by the gris, by the sidrei taharah, when it's tamei, right? If you have a thing on davar tamei, מקבל טומאה. But if it's mamash dam, we're not going to be aser it like the sidrei taharah. He was laughing. You have to see the way the guy—on the bus now it became a thing that they talk to me about hilchos nidah all day, like, it became a whole—so I sit there. I don't have time to prepare. I tell him, I used to take this time to prepare. I don't have it anymore. Kids, I used to tell him again, he's mechalek between—show me where he says it. Le'etzem ha-davar... davka b'rosh ha-dam, aval b'lo ro'aso... Okay, again, it's the same thing. Okay. Dam, not dam, not—okay. Now, if you learn Biur Rishon, even she was grushah, and by you it's Biur Rishon. He's saying a very big chiddush there, by the way. I want to go through what he says a little bit later. I'm going to get back to this, okay? Go ahead, what? She was grushah. Let's say she's a grushah, nothing. No, by you it's—it's not you, it's about her, her biur rishon. Okay, read it. It's on top over there. Go ahead. Mukas etz, go ahead, read it. No, it's in the actual sefer, Mukas etz. Over there, over there on top, over there, right there on top, Mukas etz, yeah, Mukas etz. Yeah. What is he saying? What is he saying? What, mishtapselah? Hakohen is psulah, I don't care. What? I don't care. Why not? He lo psulah. Yesh—no. Now, does he go into the almost and maybe and could be? No. That's how the Ramban says lo plug. Now, the Ramban says lo plug, it's a din in the biur. You know how the Ramban says lo plug? It's a din in the biur. That's how the Ramban says lo plug. You're right, you could say lo plug. You know what the problem is? Who decided this lo plug? Yeah, but who decided this? Who decided? The daas teshuva that lived 50 years ago? So why should he decide that on his own? The teretz is he was learning a lomdus. Maybe his lomdus dam has to do with the biah. Every biah rishonah, a kohen is ... a woman. Okay, now. Yeah? No. Okay, I don't care what he says. Do I care what he says? Is it important to me what he says? Go ahead, look at the ... I don't care what the ... Trust me, I don't care what the ... says either. Zer emes. You want to look all the way to the Zer Emes? I'm asking. Go ahead. Now. Nothing. Nothing. He's playing because he knows, he knows. Okay, now. Okay, leave me alone. You know that you could say it this way. Okay, you're right. Let's go right. Now. And af al pi kein she's asur. That's what he's saying. There's one shitah that holds it's still אסור to the ... What? So you say no, she should be ... No! He's proving from there. You see from here it's a din in the biah, not a din in the dam psulah. You see that every time there's the first biah, that's biah rishonah, they gave you a din ...

According to Rosh, it's... Exactly, I'm telling you. But mashenkein by a machshir, it's the other way around. By a machshir, because it's blood without a bi'ah. If it's the bi'ah, then this is aser. If it's the blood, then that is aser. If we go after the bi'ah, there there was no bi'ah. If we go after the blood, here there's no blood. According to this sheetah, that's machmir even by mukas eitz. She took it out by a machshir, and later she had a bi'ah, no dam. So the matter over there or the matter over here? Right, that needs the bi'ah; will be matir it over there. Say the machmir over here. Right. She was mukas eitz. Right. She had bi'ah and there was no dam. He says anyway she's tamei. Because it has to be bi'ah. So over there where there's no bi'ah, maybe it'll be matir it. Why matir? Obviously she's gonna have a bi'ah after; why should she be psulah now for? No, say later psulah now surgically, she had a bi'ah, there was no dam. I mean, because you're saying because it's more like a mukas eitz now. Ah, that's a nice shaila, nice different shaila. According to this, let's give this din mukas eitz. Aha, that's a good ha'arah. No, in this shitah, maybe this man d'amar over there would have the problem that it's a mukas eitz. I'm asking, I'm asking, but I wasn't putting the two together. I was just saying, but the lomdus here and the lomdus here is this lomdus: do you need a bi'ah or you need dam? Right, very good. Rafi's saying a good point. Okay, I'm just saying. It's not mukhach. In other words, that the— right, in other words, according to that, the one that holds over here would still have a problem over there because it's k'ilu it was a mukas eitz that they took it out. Okay. Why are you lost? I don't see, there's nothing to be lost. Why am I lost? Because it's a mukas eitz together. Why there she's tehorah? So I'm explaining to you, because by the mukas eitz there was no bi'ah. There was a bi'ah. So I'm telling you, here there was a first bi'ah. We're talking about the first bi'ah. So she went after the first bi'ah to the machshir. That's what we're talking about. She made a bi'ah, and it didn't work. Lomar meisah the pesulim, which could be another case. What happens if they were meisah the pesulim after, which is usually what happens? So that would be my story. That you would have my story. Okay, right? So if they took it out before and then they went— I mean, the truth is there's no reason to be noisher before the bi'ah. You try, unless there was no bi'ah, you just couldn't do it. Okay. But if there was hara'ah, if there was hara'ah and then they went, that would be my— that would be that the bi'ah was already, and then— well, that's called bi'ah. Hara'ah is bi'ah for this. We're going to learn that soon. Okay? Okay, so write this down: chidush, gevaldige chidushim lahalachah. Im ze din babi'ah, o ze din bedam. Lefi haRosh, nagid sheze din babi'ah. So therefore it would come out like this: let's say they took out the pesulim without a bi'ah. So if you hold it's the dam, you have the dam. If you hold it's the bi'ah, there's no bi'ah, right? Mukas eitz would be the other way around. Mukas eitz, right? So you took away the psulim, but now you're doing a bi'ah, so you could still be asur, because you're having his first bi'ah, right? O dilma, maybe we could say the other way, that once this mukas eitz, so then the taking out of the psulim before the bi'ah is like a mukas eitz. So the one who holds that it's mutar, right, would hold it's mutar there too, and the one that holds it's asur would hold—unless the story was the other way around. Unless the story was it was first a bi'ah, haro, they couldn't do it, they went to the doctor, so then the bi'ah was, and then it's just they were motzi, so according to the mukas eitz. But isn't another bi'ah? I don't know if you need another bi'ah. Once there's haro, there's haro. We're going to talk about that. Once you have a bi'ah, so then she becomes tamei. It's a machlokes haposkim. So I'm explaining what are the two tzadim. If she's not a psulah, what are you asering exactly? She's not a psulah. And the teretz is it didn't—the takanas chachamim was first bi'ah. That was the takanas chachamim. Now you have to make a cheshbon, right? Because according to the mukas eitz, if you hold it's asur, so then when it comes to Shmuel, when it comes to im mukas eitz asur, yeah, yesh issur. So when you come to the doctor...

He takes out the psulim, and the next day you go do a biah, so it's like the mukas eitz. So if you hold it's asur, this would be asur. If you hold it's mutar, then this would be mutar. But I'm telling you it would be a chiddush the way we're learning, because what happens if there was first a biah and then you had to be motzi the psulim? What happens if there was first a biah and then you have to be motzi psulim? As we learn the sugya, I'm going to want to taina that a biah rishonah without being motzi psulim at all might not be a biah. I don't know, anything. It might not have a shem biah whatsoever. As we learn the sugya, I have this chiddush. There's a chiddush, yesh li, aval ze lo ya'ayom, ze yeh b'yom chamishi. It's at the end I have something going through my mind, and how to learn up the Shulchan Aruch. But okay, but now let's continue, okay? Now, so we've established yesh loisha shitos b'dam psulim. Chad meihem yachol lihyos sheze afilu d'Oraisa, shayach to tenidos d'Oraisa, the Rif. Maybe not, maybe yeah, I don't know. Aval vadai yesh chakirah: is it din b'biah, or is it din b'dam? V'asinu nafka minas, okay. I think another nafka mina would be is to learn the machlokes, the Mechaber and the Rema. Let's learn the machlokes, the Mechaber and the Rema. Mechaber says, afilu badkah v'lo matza dam, temeiah, shema ra'asah tipas dam kechardal v'chipehu sheichvas zera. Now which tipas dam is he talking about? L'chora the dam psulim. He's not talking about dam nidah. Any dam, any dam, right? Okay. Hagah, hagah, we're gonna talk about that. Hagah, v'yesh mekilim im lo rasa dam. Yesh mekilim. Now why? So either you could come and say that he doesn't hold of the sevara of shema chipah. Yachol lihyot shehu lo choshev meha-svara. Lama? Yecholim lagid, yecholim lagid, shelo sover mishum chipah because it's a chiddush mechadesha. So that's a good ha'ara, right? Why don't we say it over here? So we could come and say, since it's only derabbanan anyway, since it's רק דרבנן. So I'm trying to understand: hu lo sover mishum chipah, yachol lihyot. I, b'derech klal we hold of shema chipah? Not here, because it's only derabbanan. אי דילמא, you need dam. Like the Rif, the story is with the dam we're choshesh, right? So kol zman there's no dam, why should we be choshesh? Maybe, yeah. Maybe the Mechaber is saying we should be choshesh. אי דילמא there's a gevaldige gevaldige svara over here. There's no dam, so if the issur is dam sulim, there's no dam. Ma she'ein kein, if you hold that the issur is without the dam, it's all about the first bi'ah, so maybe you don't even need dam. Now let's learn the Rambam further. Ken. V'nahagu l'hakel. תמיד ניחא להקל, אם לא גמר ביה, רק הרבה, ולא ראה דם. אבל אם בא לה ביה ממש, צריך לפרוש ממנה אף על פי שלא ראתה דם. What's the nafka? If it was hera'ah, lo haga lahakel, אף על פי שלא ראתה דם. מה שאין כן by bi'ah, so idi can come and say it's all against sevaras then. By bi'ah probably there was dam, so shema chipah. מה שאין כן by hara mechtes, so there was dam, so therefore we don't say shema chipah. Maybe we could say very pashut. חמיני קוש is תלוי בביאה. הרבה ולא ראתה דם, הרע בעלמא. Hara without breaking the besulah, what happens? No, bal nefesh shelo... okay, זה אחר כך.

עוד פעם. You ready, Benji? Let's do it again. ויש מקילין אם לא ראה דם. Why? ... לא על הבגד. ... אחד משתי נקודות. ... שלא סובר משום ... למה לא? It's only derabbanan. So if you have dam, good. If you don't have dam, don't worry. Od ilma, we could come and say that it's about dam safek. So since it's about dam safek, you don't have dam safek. Why should you be— when you have dam safek... Maybe you do... No, I'm talking even the first case. Even the first case. ויש מקילין אם לא ראה דם. Yeah, but maybe it is something... See, let's— it's what it says: ויש מקילין אם לא ראה דם. Oh, so either he doesn't hold of that sevara, because then if you don't have— but it's very shver, why not? So either the pshat is because only derabbanan, so we're not choshesh for it. Or the pshat is, or the pshat is, it has to begin with dam. If you have dam, then you can have sfeikos that dam safek is coming. When there's dam, there's a rabbanan as a dam safek. But if there's no dam, when there is dam safek, so then there's a chashash of dam safek. If there's no chashash of dam safek, okay. Then he says, v'nohagu. So what's the minhag? V'nohagu l'hakel im lo gamar bi'ah. Rak heira bo v'lo rasa dam. So what's the pshat? Because mechteisa, since it's only hara'ah, so you can say probably there was no dam. But by bi'ah mamash, tzarich lifrosh mimenu, af al פי shelo rasa dam, because of shema chipah. That's how you learn, because of shema chipah. Back to Maran. Back to Maran, right? Now what would Maran hold in these cases? I mean, what would he hold? He would hold that there's a chashash of shema chipah. What about hara'ah? What is the mechaber? Kohenes is a pesulah, bo'el b'ilas mitzvah v'gomer bi'aso, va'afilu bat kohen shemarasah, shehaya gam v'chipaho shechvas zera. Ah, before shichvas zera. I have more before, I have more, more than shichvas zera. What's gomer bi'aso? It's mashma the story is gomer bi'aso. I understand, but his story is on gomer bi'aso. I don't know. I don't know. It's unclear about it. I don't know. You don't have a mashma'os. Unless you start clarifying, because bo'el b'ilas mitzvah could be hara'ah also. Yeah, that's why I come from, like, write this down. What does the mechaber hold by hara'ah? The Rema started talking about hara'ah. What did the mechaber hold about it? How come the mechaber... Huh? I think he's machmir. The what? I'll leave it to you in a minute. I'm not holding. I want to get to that soon. I'm going to talk about it slowly. I want it before that. Let's go step number one. What's the story? What he does, talk about that then. No, but he just said hara'ah is considered bi'ah. According to the mechaber, it's bi'ah, it's going to be bi'ah, not on the daf, so it should be asur. Maybe the machlokes is about... Maran could be a kula, that you need gomer bi'aso, right? Because by hara'ah, it's not enough. It's not... it wasn't... But tzad... I'm telling you, but it depends on which side you're looking. If you're looking al צד גזירה of shema chipah, you don't have that. So before that, I have another shaylah. What would happen in case he was goymer biah, but he wasn't—he went all the way in, but there was no shichvas zera. He was tired. That's what I'm asking. It's exactly what I'm asking. I want to know, once the goymer of the tumah is the goymer of the tumah d'chshash dam with shemochipah, or is the goymer the biah? I don't know. It's not clear, and it's תלוי in the shiur. It's mamash תלוי everything in the shiur. כל מה שדיברנו זה תלוי איך לפרש פה את השולחן ערוך. So I'm trying to explain to you: if it's about dam, so then we have to start having about explanation what happened to the dam. You have to explain what happened to the dam. So where there's no explanation, could be ein hachi nami, there's no issur. Now the truth is—

They do bring nevat. The dam, you don't need only chipo, but hu adin nevat. Look at the body. The body brings down on chipo, hu adin nevat. Maybe stam got lost. I didn't find that here. I don't know, v'chiper u'shichvas zera. I don't know. So then it's not even— you don't need the shichvas zera. It could be tipas dam kechardal, and stam got lost. Are you with me? אני לומד דברים מוזרים, אני לומד איתך. Okay, before you think, try not to think because you don't know all the information yet. I'm happy you don't know. You see, that already means you don't know any of it. The fact that you think that you know most of it is a siman that you don't. You were sitting here for the last hour saying that because you're saying it goes in the bi'ah, right? Let's say you were sitting the last hour— Right. So I'm trying to tell you, again, I didn't say— I said could be. I said could be. I'm clear. Okay, so I'm telling you, according to that, so then all the story about the dam is irrelevant. Right. Okay, so that's why I'm maskim with you. But it's not muchach that that's what it is. I stuck it back into the Beis Yosef. I don't know. So I'm telling you, so according to this, it's about gomer bi'ah. The story is not about harah, and the Mechaber would not hold of harah, and he never spoke about harah. The second side. The Rama taka talks about harah. I want to make a big chiddush that according— that the Mechaber is being meikel on harah. That's right, that on harah he might be— maybe. I'm just saying because he doesn't talk about it. Now what do I have? But ma'aseh, he talks about chipeyu u'shichvas zera, right? So is the ta'am chipeyu because you need to have an explanation for the dam? So what happens if you don't have an explanation for the dam? Meaning, there's no dam and there's no explanation for it. So what will be the halacha in such a case? So then the pshat is, we could come and say that there is always an explanation, because then it's neva, then l'maaseh, hu adin neva. Don't say it. You have to make it lav davka. You have to come and say, in the mechaber, when he says chipeh, it was lav davka. I don't know if it's lav davka, okay? So then I have the pshat that the mechaber is trying to say that I have an explanation how come there's no dam. But l'hu yetzuyer there is taka no dam, it would taka be mutar. Oi dilma, oi dilma, it's aser anyway, and the shema is just the svara in the takanah. When the Chazal assered it, because since it could come out shema that the chipehu shechvazera, I don't need l'maaseh in this case, shema chipehu shechvazera. It doesn't say, it just says, 'Higia zman v'lo ra'asa, v'afilu ba'alah lo matza dam temeiah.' Not in your story, because there is a story, ha'kohenes is psulah shema chipehu. I'm saying, you're right, you can make the faces, but you could learn like that. With the faces you could still learn like that. I'm saying is it's not muchach here that the shema means in this case, since a kohenes psulah could have a case of shema chipehu, so therefore— No, so shema ra'asa means— That's right. No, so I'll try to tell you, shema maybe she saw, maybe she didn't see. We don't care. I don't know, it's not muchach. I'm saying, l'chatchilah I learned that way. L'chatchilah I learned that you need the possibility. But then I learned maybe not. Maybe it's a din in the takanah. Why? Hakoneses psulah, they ta'ina she's temeiah because it could be such a story. So what about in a case where she herself, this particular girl is no safek because there's no shechazera, or she because he only made hara'ah? It doesn't make a difference, because that was the din, hakoneses psulah. Again, one more time. The Rama comes along and talks about a chiluk between hara'ah and gamar bi'ah. What does Maran hold of that story? Now the truth is Maran is talking about a story that he was gamar bi'ah; he finished. So we don't know. It doesn't say. He's talking about a certain story, right? So either he's talking about gamar bi'ah because hara'ah is not good enough, or maybe only because of the din of peirush. He's trying to teach me the din of peirush. He speaks about gamar bi'ah, yeah? So then I tell you, let's kler: chipehu shechazerah. A, by hara'ah you don't have it. You don't have it. B, what happens if taka lo chipehu shechazerah? He didn't have shechazerah. What happens then? So either you learn the pshat is, and a Chanami.

You don't have the excuse. You don't. Where's the dam? But there's no shechlazera, ein hachanami. You can't say that it's... So the Mishnah Baalei shechlazera says, yeah, because it could always get lost, and we learned in previous simanim it gets lost. I don't know, he doesn't say that, right? Oy dilma, he's not talking about you in this story. He's talking about the takanah, shem ha-takanah. Why? What was the reason for this takanah? The reason is because even where there's no dam, there could be dam. So the pshat is they gave it a din on the bi'ah. Every time there's a bi'ah, poresh. Every time there's a bi'ah, tameiah. Bi'ah rishon is mechayev tameiah. Do you need the scenario that there might be dam? Mashma maybe, but not muchach. Mashma maybe, but not muchach. Why are you lost? Okay, say it over. I called. I called three times. I never got a hold. We'll talk. I called. I don't know if I told you. Did I tell you? I forgot. I did tell you, right? I called. He kept me waiting a half hour. I told you that was the story Friday. He kept me waiting a half hour. Let's say he didn't. Should we say that since you only mentioned one reason, therefore, if you don't find blood and the other condition is not there, it was not? Or most of the time about... You mentioned it only here, not l'diyuka, not that you should be medayek, oh, but if there was no shechlazera, no problem. You're just mentioning the reason why we're so machmir, why we're rabbanan. Which means, l'maaseh today it's like... it makes no difference. It's always asur. It can always be neveilah. Especially if you ask us, why were they so machmir? The answer is they were machmir because shem ha-chipah shechvas zera. But ein hachanami, we don't even care. We don't care. We don't need shechvas zera. We don't need bi'ah. And even hara'ah too. If you learn hara'ah is a bi'ah. L'maaseh, it's bilas mitzvah, it's a bi'ah. So pashut it should be aser af bi'ah, okay? Now, I'll tell you one step further. Let's say I went and I took the sheet, and I took a magnifying glass, and I cleaned off the chazerah, and there's no dam over there. Does it make a difference? So he rather brings down that it's brought down, the Gemara to do it, but we don't know how to do it today. Iganze maaseh, Iganze story. What? They do, they clean it, yeah? But they ask the kal shein, and then they search the sheet. Yeah, but that could be because he punched you in the face. It might have nothing to do with the stam stam psul. Okay, okay, we got the point, we got the point. The point is they used to check it, okay? So how come the ... says today they don't know how to do it? Probably the Shulchan brings acharonim, he brings acharonim. It's irrelevant. The sugya is not about did you find the din, didn't you find. The takanah was, could be every bi'ah, shoina tameiah, that's all. Yesod of the takanah might have been shema chipahu and the ganze maises. So even if today you check and there isn't, maybe it's not negeia, it's irrelevant. Comes along the Rambam, v'yesh mekilin im lo rasa dam, not like you mechaber. According to you mechaber, that we don't care if you didn't find blood, it's only shema. I'm telling you no, you have to find the blood. If you don't find the blood, there's no reason for the takanah. Then he says, v'hagu l'hakel im lo gamar bi'ah. Why? Because if the whole thing is that— Shemechi poshich vazera, and here you don't have it, so maybe it's not negeya. So the minhag is to be meikel. But ein hachanami, if you learn that all you need is the bi'ah, right? So then ein hachanami, it doesn't make a difference. That's what I'm telling you. I'm learning up the pshat in the Rama gevaldik now. Is the minhag like the Mechaber also? Is the minhag that says, ...? It depends, that's what I'm trying to tell you, it depends. That's right. If you learn that the problem is that there's a bi'ah, so hara'os is considered a bi'ah, right? But if you learn the pshat is because you need the shemechi posh, ... by arah.

Okay, I see everybody's disappearing, so let's go further. Now, ready? Yeah? Okay. You see the sefarim, they talk about certain anatomies. Rav Nissim Karelitz explains the anatomy of the body and how much is hara'ah, and it's just too much. I can't, I can't talk. I'm sorry. It's too much. Okay. Not b'rav. If you want to talk to you later, not now. Okay, now. Okay. I have a different shaila. What happens if they made hara'ah? Yes, Reb Shmuelik. Mincha, mincha. Okay. They made hara'ah, and then they made it be a gemurah. Okay. So now let's make a chakirah, you hear? Let's make a chakirah, yeah? Hufi, let's make a chakirah. If you made a hara'ah, yeah, and then you made it be a gemurah. So if you learn that it's tolin damsulim, it shayach every time to do the— you made hara'ah, and then by the bei gemurah it got more, so it's all good. But if you learn it's a din in the bi'ah, it's not so much in the damsulim, so once the hara'ah, so there would be enough and you wouldn't have to worry about the bi'ah shniyah if there's no dam. You're my chiddush. That was hara'ah, there was no dam. Then there was a bi'ah shniyah. So if you learn that it's— that it's, hara'ah wasn't zocheh not finishing the damsulim, right? See, after choshesh the next time for the dam psul. If he made hara'ah, there was no dam, and then the second time you went, there's no problem. A lot of poskim hold not like that. A lot of poskim asser it because dam nidah, the psulim, that come out. But the way we learned, that it's תלוי in the bi'ah rishonah, not so much in the dam, so you can be meikel. Unless you say... To what? He did hara'ah, so that's it, finished, no? So therefore you would be aser on the first one, be mutar on the second one. I don't know. Mechta eises. See, if you look at that—listen, listen, wants to tighten up a chiddush like this, that there's no dam on the second one. He says, Shamati poskim that aser on the second one. How about I hold it's mutar? But the way I'm learning is gargishmak. Okay, so we'll stop right here, 1:30, and we'll continue Thursday, and we'll finish Kuf Tzadi Gimel, then we go to Kuf Tzadi Daled. Okay, so do the pratim, do the mishnayos, okay? Okay, Rafi, yeah?