Hilchos Dam Besulim: Ha’araah vs. Gemar Bi’ah, Prishah, and First-Night Harchakos

Transcript

V'nohagu d'rama. So now we're going to discuss, now we're going to discuss how much bi'ah, A, asers her, and B, is mati her for the next time, and if it's talui ha-baha. Again, I just told you the whole shiur in a nutshell. Amarti lecha et ha-shiur b'pitka echad, one sentence. Letzimudat, kama bi'ah mishpat echad, kama bi'ah oser otah, kama bi'ah matir otah, lepa'am ha-ba shelo tihyeh ba'ayah, v'im ze talui ha-baha. Does it have to be the same, that if this is a bi'ah legabei te'aser, it has to be a bi'ah legabei to be matir for the dam besulim? Bechochma amarti mah she'amarti. There's a lot of wisdom, there's a lot of depth, b'toch ha-milim ha'eilu, achshav nasbir. If you take a look, it says, nohagu, d'rama, nohagu l'hakel im lo gamar bi'ah. So the first thing is, we clarified, what does the Mechaber hold? It doesn't say. The Rama, nohagu l'hakel, mashma from the Mechaber, ad bi'ah gemurah, there's nothing. Harei, what happens according to the Mechaber if he does a little bit and stops? L'choira, some pesulim. U'shavar besulim, yachol lihyot sheyesh dam besulim. So b'yesod, haheter hu ligmor ha-bi'ah, aval mah ha'isur? When does the issur start? Does the issur start with the gemar bi'ah, or does the issur start even a little bit less, right? According to the Mechaber, it's not clear. V'nohagu l'hakel is mashma that the issur doesn't start unless it's a gemar bi'ah. I don't know what the Mechaber holds in that. It's very shayach that he's matir gemar bi'ah, but it doesn't mean that it becomes aser with less. Either it's dam psulim, either it's dam psul. Maybe he holds like the Ramo, so we have to know what the Ramo holds. It's not clear, lo barur b'shitas haMechaber. Peirush, because lamrod sheyesh dam psulim, yachol lihyos she'adayin mutar. Gemar bi'ah, it's not the... No, we don't know that either yet. That we spoke about. Let's see without that. Let's see just that he went in all the way. Nagid shehe went in all the way. So what happens if he didn't go in all the way? So the Ramo is matir. What does the Mechaber hold? He went in, he went out, he didn't go in all the way, סתמא שבר פסולים. So what's the halacha? Now, what's the hakefshat when you go in a little bit? Was he shover psulim or he wasn't shover psulim? So the Seder Taharah and the Acharonim say he was shover psulim. It's not true. Even if you go in a little bit, we have to take on that you're shover the psulim. So then, what's the hakefshat? V'nohagu l'hakel, d'hainu... If you hold that he's not shover psulim, so I don't need a minhag. He should just say that it's mutar. And if you are shover psulim, so what's v'nohagu l'hakel? It's a big peleh. Minhag, shavarta the psulim. It's possible to be shogeg. So did you do it? So why no hagalah? Ela mai? Because it doesn't shevirah pesulim. It doesn't shevirah pesulim, so therefore, so then it has no minhag; it has to do with mutar. Unless maybe the pshat, it's a safek, it's not clear, you're not for sure, it's a safek, so it doesn't have to do with minhag. It should just say safek d'rabbanan l'kula. I don't know what the word minhag — the word minhag, unless he doesn't mean minhag. He just says the minhag is to be... In other words, nog shel hachlotah shel haposkim, k'ilu. It doesn't mean minhag. He meant to say was mekilim b'zeh. Okay. I would say like this. I would say a chiddush nifla like this, yeah? You took care of the money? You told Rabbi Chaimoff that the money was upstairs? But you said it for... you said it was here. What, the bell? Could you stop the tape a minute? That's her, that's her. You have to understand what it means nohagu. You have to understand what it means nohagu, right? Ma kavonah nohagu? מסתמא you would learn nohagu because it's safek d'rabbanan.

Haklal, right? One thing for sure, I'm not going to argue with Acharonim that it is meisah psulim. It's not. They say it is, so then it is. So what's pshat, hagu l'hakel, the minhag, the minhag is l'hakel. I want to say, the way we learned in the previous shiur, since the din is that l'maaseh you need a biur, since l'maaseh you need a biur, so hagu l'hakel, well you need to do a complete biur. The issur was only said ha'isur. ... psulim, aval me'achar sheham hu hadin, hakoinus is a psulah, ba'al bilas mitzvah u'poresh, hagu l'hakel on a little bit. I'm going to explain it later more, but let's just say one thing for sure: you definitely weren't gomer. They were meikel kol zman you weren't gomer. You know how I would say it? They gave you bilas mitzvah, meaning the whole thing, they didn't make a takanah sheshebi'ah sheyihiyeh asur in the middle. ... that's it. So kol zman it's not gomer, they didn't make the takanah. I have many raayos. Let's say it again. I want to say one thing. Okay, it's not tznius. Okay, I want to say it like this, you hear? No, hagu l'hakel because you takan need gomer biur. The takanah was said to finish the biur, and then she should be aser. So, v'nahagu l'hakel kol zman you didn't finish the biur. We're going to talk about it. I told you, I told you, let me do my work. The answer is v'noag, because the taich is—it's a very nice pshat. The minhag is to say, you know what, there might be biur. We're not discussing that. The minhag is kol zman there's no gemar biur, there's not a gemar biur, we're going to come and say l'hakel. V'nahagu l'hakel im lo gamar biur. If you notice, it doesn't say v'nahagu l'hakel only with hara. He stresses, v'nahagu—the minhag is you weren't gomer the biur. I know. Come and say it's just a case, but again— I understand. What? No, I understand, but it could be the minhag is not so much that hara is mutar, as much as kol zman you weren't gomer the biur. V'nahagu l'hakel because you weren't gomer the biur. Is the reason for hara because whatever it is, it's not an avdama, whatever we're going to maybe get to later, or whatever the yesod is, it's about gemar biur. V'nahagu l'hakel kishelo gamar. It has to do with gemar biur. When you gomer the biur, fine. Now you're going to start clarifying because only by gemar biur meiser b'shum, but it's not true. So we have to figure out what is it about hara and gemar biur that's mechayev this halacha. It'll become clear. Let's just— I don't understand, what's not true? What does that mean, it's not true? You could see, there's no dam. It's not true. It's just hara, there's no dam. Okay, so it's a machlokes you and the Gemara. The Seder Taharah brings a mefurash Gemara that you could have dam by hara, and he says it clearly. Seder Taharah says clearly that it's not muchach; you can have dam baro. And you see from his lashon, v'lo ra'asa dam, mashma you could see dam. So it's possible to have dam. I mean, it's not impossible. I saw the Badei HaShulchan learns differently. Badei HaShulchan says like this: yes, the Seder Taharah says that there's no dam—I'm sorry, that there is dam. There is dam. Seder Taharah says there's dam. But the pshat is, that's only when you boil regular. When you boil bati'ach, which means on the side, you didn't go straight, harei is not meiser dam. So it all depends on how they're boiled. He says the same thing. He says the same thing. Okay, so we're going to take on by hara'ah, that's the minhag l'hakel, that it wasn't done properly. Now l'choirah, I don't understand why. I mean, what's pshat, samchina? Because it's only derabbanan, because the whole thing is shvacha maisa? Again, you know what you're doing. You bring out halacha and you say, ah, it's not that serious. We'll take...

Why should we take on? And also, ask him. Why didn't you ask? Perhaps he doesn't know. You know, you're watering down the halacha. It's making it... Whatever he tells you, I wasn't mevatel. Unless you say, מאחר that we see that he was just hara, that's all he did, that itself was a raya he was mevatel. Maybe he couldn't get—maybe that's why it didn't work. If a person is not mevatel, it's a Gemara. There is a Gemara. Maybe the fact it's כאילו like there's ידיים מוכיחות that it didn't go. You know what I mean? I'm asking pashut. The Ramaz make, and we just soon learn that's the minhag olam, that if you just did hara, right? And don't forget, it works both ends. You did hara, and she becomes a niddah, that's called the bi'ah and it's good enough. You know that? If you do hara and she becomes a niddah, there's no issur yichud. Why? Because he already did bi'ah. And here we're saying he did hara, it's not called a bi'ah. She's mutar. So we're playing here. How do we play the game? The Teretz is all Rabbanan, so they made it that way. You can learn like that. You can learn the whole siman, hei mamru v'hei mamru. This is the way they set it up. Yachol lihyot kach tiknu. That's how you learned it? A little bit more you learned, a little different, huh? What? Okay, so let's go. So listen here, listen here. The first question is minhag. The word minhag could either mean minhag l'hakel. That's all he means. The nohagu as a kula, ki'ilu nohagnu l'hakel b'halacha זו. Or, okay, it's like a minhag in the din itself. There's two types of minhag. There's a minhag b'meiko, and then there's a minhag that the halacha is that. The minhag is that that's the halacha. Not minhag b'nohagu, this is the way the halacha is. This is the way we do it. Why? It says because lo gamar b'yas. He wasn't gomer. So I'm asking you, are you meiser psulim or you're not meiser? If you're meiser psulim, so why should be such halacha? And if you're not meiser psulim, so it has nothing to do with minhag. It has to do with you're not meiser psulim. Ela mai, vaiter, it could be meiser psulim. B'nohagu, like misafek to be meikel. I don't know. Mechtais. A lot of Acharonim talk, safek, Rabbanan, they stick the derabbanan in there. A lot of Acharonim medaber... psul... me'eila could be meikel. I don't know. Something about it I don't like. What do I like? I like to say maybe, since the din was only said by a bi'ah, and they gave you that bi'ah, they gave you the first bi'ah, kol zman you didn't do that bi'ah, so it's not asur. Ah, you're gonna come and ask a kasha, it's meiser psulim. So what? Okay, I'll ask you a kasha. While you're doing it, you're not made some sulam? I'll show you made some sulam. Huh? As you're going in, you're being made some sulam. So wait a minute, wait a minute, and it's not aser. It should be aser right away. And the teretz is because they gave you the first bi'ah. So he's saying that the heter, hara'ah means you started. So what do you— but you didn't finish a bi'ah. They gave you a complete bi'ah. I mean, I can hear it's a very seicheldige svara. But there you still b'koach hamaisah, you feel like you finished going me'erva poresh, but here you're already poresh and you want to go back again, be touching. What do you call— see, I have a ha'arah, you ready? What do you call gomer u'poresh? I want to discuss this. It fell out. You weren't poresh because you wanted to be poresh. It fell out. What would you call that? I don't know, so write that down. Say Rabbi Wolkin has this as a shailah. You hear what I'm asking? If the pshat is that once there's hara'ah and that's it, finished, okay, so there was hara'ah. But if the taich is because hara'ah is not called a gemar, kol zman you're still b'emtza, so then it's mutar. You ready? I'm going to tell you a chidush nifla that I was mechadesh years ago, and I saw that the Chut Shani brings it down, but in Nisuin Karelitz.

That's why I love the sefer. It comes up with such interesting, interesting zachim, such interesting... After the bi'ah, poresh, right? What do you call poresh? He has to quickly get off the bed. Huh? Come off. Right, the minute... get off. Then you have to get off. Poresh and goodbye. You have to walk away. He says not like that, not true. Poresh doesn't mean poresh from her. Poresh means we're doing another bi'ah. You can touch. You can wait on the bed. You can clean yourself, you can get dressed, and then you get off. You're still in the middle of the ma'aseh bi'ah. Start a second bi'ah. That's something else. That's not a new bi'ah. ... one bi'ah. So, if I can't start a second one, that means because the first one's finished, right? Not finished. Not finished yet. I'm still in the bed with my wife. What's the problem? You're not finished the first bi'ah. Tell me, snap of ... You hear the gadlus of the gadol b'Yisrael? You don't hear the gadlus of the gadol b'Yisrael? You can lie in the bi'ah, then you can relax, then you can clean yourself up. That's not a shaylah of relax. He's telling you you're not finished with the bi'ah. In other words, because that's all part of the... In other words, the steps of bi'ah is... I wasn't masik, I wasn't masik daas. Ilan, Ilan, Ilan, you hear what another learning should do in Shulchan Aruch? Never would have you guys come to it if you had to learn by me. I think that way always. When I see the Shulchan Aruch, I right away try to go there. I want to know what you're talking—what is the word ‘poirish’? What are you referring to? And then I saw he's learning. He's saying a lot of halacha l'maaseh, paskens halacha l'maaseh. You don't have to get out of the bed. I mean, he paskens halacha l'maaseh. It's an unbelievable chiddush, chiddush nifla, yeah? Why wouldn't you be choshesh for another bi'ah? Well, he says, What's with the word ‘miyad’? From doing another bi'ah. Right, so you—kol oto yom... What's ‘miyad’? He meant from, in other words, poirish as far as from that action, making bi'ah again, right? No, shetacher again. But you don't have to be poirish, period, from the whole bed and from the whole... Why do they say that he's only allowed to be in the bed when she gets up? Huh? He's allowed to stay in her bed when she gets up. I'm going to talk about that. I'm going to get to that. I'm going to get to it. I'm going to get to it. So he can... if you're not going to get up in the morning, because that's not... If you don't have to rush to get up, whatever is normal. Whatever is normal. That's the poirish miyad. That's what he's saying. Poirish miyad means you can't touch her, but from the act of the bi'ah, you can still be there. There's nothing wrong. I'm going to convert. Yeah? It says like this. Yeah. Ha d'isa d'poirish acha bi'las mitzvah, haya makom loi... Listen to this. This is how the Chazon Ish used to think. People think he used to be machmir. He wasn't machmir. He used to go one step further to see od nekudah, od nekudah. It's beautiful. It's such—it reminds me of the Chazon Ish. I could just hear the Chazon Ish coming up with such a vort. The whole nusach is beautiful. But you know why I'm happy? Because I said this shiur last week, and I knew everyone's gonna bother me and make me crazy, and I don't care. I'm gonna say what I think. I'm not afraid of anyone. But then I see, Mama, she says it. Look at it here. ומכל מקום הפרישה ממנו מיד, היינו בדרך פרישה. ועל כן מותר לסלבש קודם שירד מטהרה, ואין צריך לעשות צדקה שיכול ליפטר שיהיה מהר, דחזקהו בכלל וגומר ביאוס. Nu? ... There's halacha of גומר ביאוס. I was so happy when I saw it. I'm so happy. You see that he also learned. The גומר ביאוס is not that she's a nida now. She's not nida. What are you talking about? גומר ביאוס, they gave you one bi'ah. That's what they gave you. So it could be, hara'ah is still not — not that it's not a bi'ah. It's not a גמר ביאוס. It's not finished yet. And that's what I want to tie, in case you come out.

Wanting to come out, like certain people, they want to go in a little bit. You learn this, and then they're gonna want to, for the next day. So that's called ... bi'aso. You're finished. You don't want to do more. If you fall out, so that's not called ... bi'aso. He's not asur, not asur. ... fell out. Someone said, That's it, finished, stuck. Huh? If you've been more than ... As long as you weren't gomer the bi'ah, she is not a ... Gomer bi'ah means you're satisfied. You feel like you finished. Satisfaction. It was a complete bi'ah. That's why they say, ... chatzi ... shurim, whenever the guy feels he's finished. Feel? It has to you. First of all, rabbei, rabbei. That's what I'm trying to explain to you. I hold the shiur, Mr. ... the second. The second thing for what? If you have to wait for the second. Who's all? All. ... and not ... and not ... and not ... Huh? I don't care who's quoting. You. ... And I'll show you that it's not wrong even with what they said also, that you don't let me talk, and I was—I can't get to the end because you don't let me finish. I just told you ... I told you ... You're not gonna hear this anymore. This is not—nobody talks this language except if you learn ... because they were trained, trained by the ... to be a thinker, thinker, to think. Let's see further. Huh? ... Chop up the words. ... Okay, so let's chazer and go weiter. Okay, again. I began by asking you, v'nohag, do you take away the psulim or you don't take away the psulim? Yes or no? Ma nafshach. If yes, so it should be asur. If no, it should be mutar. So what's nahag? So instead of vort, avad it's meisim psulim sidur ta'ira. So Rav Watt's name says, Rav Avadiyah Shulchan learns pshat in sidur ta'ira, but we're afraid that it wasn't straight; it was batiya. And when it's batiya, it's not meisim psulim. So the safek is normal meisim psulim, not normal. So why safek? He's giving the pshat in the Rama. Right, that's how he learns the Rama according to... Then it's not amazing that we're afraid. What we're saying, stam it wasn't, it was batiya, samchina. We take on that it was batiya. I don't know why, unless he meant because, you see, he wasn't going with the biur. So I want to tie you to... Why can't... I'll see the Rav the next day, ask him. Well, he doesn't know, so everything else he does know. What do you want? Ask. Second of all, second of all, second of all, samchina, we take on that it was batiya, right? We take on that it was batiya. Lo rata dam doesn't mean... Because if it's batiya, that means it's impossible that... it will be... So lo rata dam, that means it's shayach. No, because it's possible to have a regular biur, not a... You can have a full-fledged regular biur, not... Either it gets lost or it's because chipa... He's saying pshat over here it's batiya, that it's not possible that there's going to be dam, right? So then why is he telling me lo rata dam? That means it's shayach to have dam. Lo rata. So that's what he's trying to say. Why is he telling you pshat that it means batiya? Batiyah means that it's not possible to see dam. That's why it's mutar, right? So why do you have to tell me ...? We don't even know that. We don't know that. It might be batiyah. So, ei dera'ah, there was no dam, so we'll take on it was batiyah. So let's ask him. Find out. What does it mean, probably? Probably was batiyah, unless he means because you see, he didn't finish it. So I want to clarify: what happens if he says he couldn't finish because he just couldn't do it? So it's not due to batiyah then. He tried to do it. What happens in case he comes out, that's not what happened, it wasn't batiyah. He just couldn't do it. He couldn't break through. So it would be different? I'm asking halachah l'maaseh, then the lehagu l'hakel is not in a case where it's not batiyah? I can't, I can't, I can't. You're mechadesh a new halachah? I don't know. It's maybe. You know, write this down. If a guy comes and says, I know for sure it wasn't batiyah, what happened? I don't know. She has a heavy psulim, didn't go through. Many times the psulim are heavy and you have to go to a doctor to break through.

So what? Not, so maybe in such a case nothing comes out? I don't know. I can't learn the Shulchan Aruch that way. I can't start learning maybe כן, maybe not. Could be כן, could be not. Depends on how he was sitting, depends how he was standing. I don't know. So it comes out chidushim. You know what? Start being mechadesh. In case he was batel, so then the halacha is takkeh that it's mutar. In case it's not batel, and the reason why he couldn't break through is because he ta'anis he couldn't break through, takkeh be'issur. It's a big chiddush to bother the Shulchan Aruch. But the way I'm learning is gargeshmak. The nahagu l'hakel stam is a halacha. Nahagu l'hakel, finish. You want, go eat a yebish. That's the halacha. Aye, l'maaseh, what happens if you did see dam? Let's say there was hara'ah and you did see dam. So there we're going to discuss later. The pshat is, once there's dam, that itself is a reason to be mechayev, to be poresh. There's a halacha either the bi'ah is mechayev it, or the dam is mechayev it. Which means we're not going to come and take away and say, you see dam, so it's nothing. But the pshat is, without seeing dam, then the bi'ah is the mechayev. And then it's not about sfeikos, did you, didn't you. You don't have to go there. This is not bi'ah. This is not. Nahagu l'hakel because it's not called. Okay. Poskim write, they discuss if he was machnis kol eiver. Yeah, machnis kol eiver, more than hara'ah. Right? Muz machnis the whole eiver more than haro'ah, right? So then it's not this Rama, right? Because Rama says, nahagu lehakel by haro'ah. So the moment it's anything more than haro'ah, it'd be aser. Avada, it gets very technical, right? Now we're saying we're not talking about the end, we're not talking about the beginning, we're talking about somewhere in the middle. Haro'ah, yeah? So you could either come and say, what are you gonna, you know, the rav is gonna say, Listen, I can't trust that you know what you're talking about. Or you could do like Rav, what's his name, that goes into it, I don't know, he has a page, a whole page over here, this much and that much, and here what's called yeah, what's called not, miktzas and achvez, very, I don't know, I don't even feel comfortable repeating it, okay? If you want, you could start looking. What happens if it's a quarter of an inch more than the Rama? The Sidrei Taharah is mistapek. The Sidrei Taharah brings two days, and he says, haro'ah and plus, but l'maaseh wasn't doimer bi'ah, two days. Sidrei Taharah is mistapek and he brings two days, yeah? Now, what's the machlokes? What's the safek? So what's the machlokes haposkim? What's the safek of the Sidrei Taharah? So the Beis Meir says the Noidah B'Yehudah in siman chav-gimmel and even ha'ezer says clearly that haro'ah is a bi'ah. Haro'ah is called a bi'ah, okay? Yeah? So why taka do you need more? So why ...? Hara'ah is a bi'ah, so why should you ...? Man nafshach, the way we're learning that has to do with bi'ah, this is called a bi'ah. So either the pshat is that it's a bi'ah when it's not done b'ti'ah, maybe. Where it's done b'ti'ah, it's not a bi'ah ... Huh? I'm going back a second. There's a machlokes: what happens if it's after hachnasas ... till gemar? Poskim say, ah, that's it already; it's after the Rambam. The Siddur ... says, no, not so pashut. Maybe you need ... bi'asei. Hara'ah is just another way of saying like gamar bi'asei, because there's two words here in the Rambam. Now I go back and I show you that I was meda'ik this and you were bothering me. Remember you were bothering me? ... But you see that it's two words. Gamar bi'ah and hara'ah is not the same thing. And the Siddur ... zooms in on it and he says, Okay, so which one is it?

What happens if it's harov v'loy gamar bi'ah? It's a little bit more than harov. You see the diyuk, you see the diyuk halashon of gamar bi'ah and harov. So what's taka the machlokes haposkim, and what's taka the safek of the Seder Taharah? So the first thing is, let's know what harov is. Harov is a bi'ah. Harov is a biah. Legabei all zachin, harov is considered a biah. So then why taka would you need more? You could say, amari d'kvart. It's a biah legabei issur, but legabei to be meiser the pesulim, who says it does that? Because maybe it's batel, and like you have the cheshbon of the Baadei HaShulchan. In other words, if you learn that it's a technical she'eilah, so who cares that it's a biah? The sugya is not about biah anyway. Me'achar shehasugya eina nogea l'shem biah, it's nogea to l'maaseh, yes meiser, not meiser, so who cares that it's a biah? It's irrelevant. Then we have to go back and say, okay, so wait a minute. So you did more than harov, and you weren't gomer the biah, so what, that's all safek? It's also safek hati'ah, so where's the needin over there? Or we could say, b'emes, it is a biah. It is a biah, right? Nervos, but it's not a gemar biah. I'm not, it's a biah. But since the takanah was to be gomer the biah, and that's the machlokes, some poskim taina, as long as it goes out of the shem hati'ah. And it went into a bi'ah, so then you have the bi'ah. Mashenkein, the second shita learns that it's not a metziusdike shaylah of psulim; it's a shaylah in bi'ah. Which bi'ah? Gemar bi'ah. And that's the safek of the Seder Taharah. Again, ad kan. It's not hara'ah. Now what's the ma'alah of hara'ah? So you can learn the ma'alah of hara'ah is technical. Ilan, it's technical. What? Lemaaseh, you cannot make her pesulah; ah, you are, but not b'ti'ah, okay. So then when it's more than that, l'choira it is, right? L'choira it is. Mashenkein, if you learn that it's not about the psulim, it's about the bi'ah, so hara'ah is a bi'ah, yeah, but it's not gamar bi'asoi. Kol zman you're not gomer bi'asoi, maybe there's no issur. That's the Seder Taharah. The safek between the acharonim is either once it's a little more than a ti'ah—I'm sorry, once more than hara'ah—then there's no chashash ti'ah, mistama you were meisem psulim even a little bit. The Seder Taharah's safek is no, but l'maaseh you didn't finish. L'maaseh, the shidduch's gender, you didn't finish. And that's the machlokes. Okay, yeah? Now let me show you another nekudah. What happens if it's so in between that you don't know? It's a safekes. You don't know where you're holding. How is she supposed to know? How is he supposed to know? Badei HaShulchan gives a psak, and he says like this: then I would say if she's mekudeshes, safek or not. If she feels tzaar, so then he's breaking pesul. If she doesn't feel tzaar, then the pshat is he's not breaking. So the hachra'ah, if it's between hara'ah and a little bit more, would be in her field, how she feels in that. It's מסתמא a kashya. I don't say the halacha. Let's ask her: do you feel pain or you don't feel pain? ... Forget about what you did. Did it hurt her? Unless she says it's not muchach, the hurting. But when there's a safek, well, there's no other way to pasken. Again, you know that I can't learn like that. It's too ... it's too ... You break. She is, she does feel, she doesn't feel, hara'ah, she will feel pain. You have to ask her. So it's a psychological shulchan aruch more. I'm saying more of a ... Are you with me? Are you with me? Huh? Yes. You do. Okay. ... Okay. Noagu lehakel, v'nagid, bo nagid shemechabes sover k'maharama. I think the ...

They like this. For some reason, they like this Rama very much. Okay. All of a sudden, they became chassidim of the Rama. All right. נהגו להקל בהרמ״א, all right? So I'm asking you. Yeah, I'm asking you like this. You ready? Halacha l'maaseh. What happens, loi gamar biah, but there was hara'ah, somewhere in the middle. In the beginning of the shiur, everybody looks at me, This is the same thing. I showed you, the lashon of the Rama is something. He's saying something. V'nahagu l'hakel not by hara'ah, but rather by loi gamar biah. Considered Torah is מסתפק. All the Acharonim say no. As long as it's — you look at the Acharonim, they bring this Tzutzad. So I'm claiming, what's the reason for it? First of all, what are they arguing in? I said, what is considered Torah itself? So I'm telling you, if you learn about hashoras pesulim, so once the hara'ah is finished, so we say that there's no hatiyah, so there's no reason to say that there was no hashoras pesulim. Why? Avada he took away the pesul. But if you learn that you need a gamar biah, so that's the safek, maybe you don't have it. Kol zman you didn't finish, you didn't finish. Hatiyah is a nusach by Acharonim. He's not going straight, so therefore it's not going through. אז הוא רק בהרה. ובזה בתוס' אין דם פסול. לא לשווא. ... מדברים על גמר ביאה, מדברים שהוא גמר זרע או שהוא גמר את עצם המעשה. אז דיברנו על זה. אנחנו דיברנו על זה בשיעור הקודם. יש אומרים שבגלל חשש, שצריך לחזור, אין חשש, ויש אומרים לא פלוג. Because the bi is there. You finished the bi. Okay, now. Now I'm telling you one step further. What happens if there's a safek? So Acharonim pasken, oskim, tzarich, not tzarich. So I asked you, why bichlal don't—yeah, you with me? Where are you going over there? Huh? Chazak ve'ematz. There's two things. It's not only chazak, there's two things in life. Chazak is the organization, and ematz is the shiur. Let's go, come on. Let's go, let's go, let's go. We're going to hear this. It's so gevaldik. I'm explaining to you gevaldige zach. Tzar. So I'm asking, you know what? You don't like the lomdus, I'll give you straight halacha l'maaseh. Halacha l'maaseh. When a woman comes, not by a safek, should we ask her about tzaar if it makes a difference? I'll try to use the language that I'm not going lomdish. I'm going halacha l'maaseh, okay? Halacha l'maaseh, all right? It's a very nice... I didn't see anybody talk about it. When a woman comes, what do we ask her? Hara'ah? Or we ask mar'eh bi'ah or techilas bi'ah? Why don't we ask her pain or not pain? Go over there. Do you feel anything? No, it didn't hurt me at all. Okay, so it's nothing, no? Unless the pshat is who says we trust her, and who cares if she knows, and nechteis, and who says it has to be pain, and therefore it's only when a mistapekes, the Acharonim use this as a... Atidei me'amarte? Atidei me'amarte? Ani achshav. That's exactly what I'm saying. Could be. It's not a sevara. Rak mah. Pekah service. So then I don't know who said, ... I can hear on one way, I can hear it like this: if she felt pain, so מסתמא broke. But if she didn't feel pain, so either it didn't break, so you don't have a raya, so therefore it's mutar. You could play the game. I don't know. Okay. I want to title it like this: the way I'm learning the halacha. No? Not maskin? Okay. No? The way I learned halacha—okay, if you want to go to Chazak. ... A guy is the guy in Lakewood that was— that's a guy. Every guy in Lakewood is a guy, and this guy happens to be ... it's a goy. ... You know, it's funny, when they talk about the poskim, it's not even Rav. Forshheimer paskens. He's the posek of 20,000 people. Forshheimer. Forshheimer paskens. All right, let's go. ... No, but everybody does that.

It's not even a... it's not even an ikuv. It's just the way that we talk about. Okay, now, the way we're learning, the way we're learning, it's gargishmak, you hear? We're learning that the ikar halacha is on the bi'ah. The ikar halacha is on the bi'ah. So the nidn is not so much yeimes or not meiser, so who cares if she had tzaraas? When you come to the rav, the rav's nidn is harav, middle bi'ah and the bi'ah. That's his concern. His concern is not yad dam nidah. And I'll tell you more, I'll tell you more, I'll tell you more. There was a tekufah that they shtelled on the dam. Parsu as hasimlah, the dam. I don't think today there's a discussion of dam. The discussion is gamar bi'ah, not dam. What'd you say? What'd you say? Right, and I'm going to show you that we don't do that. We don't do the bedikos, and that's my proof. Thanks for proving it to me. It's gevaldik. I'm so happy you proved my point. We're going to discuss bedikos in a few minutes, exactly where I'm heading to. Bi'ah, not bi'ah. Gamar bi'ah. Did you finish? Did you do hara'ah? Nahagu l'hakel v'loi gamar bi'ah. You didn't finish. You didn't finish. Now, it's exactly where I'm heading to. The Aruch HaShulchan says that time after time, you have to be bodek. Kol zman it didn't stop, because since it could happen, yeah. Since it could happen that one time you saw, and then again you saw, and then again, so kol zman you didn't stop, the next time you have to check. It's not a chashash. You have to keep on checking the, the... second bi'ah, third bi'ah, because since it doesn't finish with the first one. There's even a sheet in the Acharonim that you should make mamash a regular bedikah. You should go in and make a bedikah, check to see if there's dam somewhere lost in there. It's funny that there's a sheet of... And what I mean funny, ... I know Rav Roth gives this eitzah, that by the second time just put a red sheet and don't look and throw it out and that's all, finished. Yeah? Yeah, that's what you teach the chassan, that there's trouble. You put a red towel and you don't look and that's all. Exactly not like this other chashash, right? What's the nidah? A chashash comes, tamei, has to do dam. So kol zman there's dam, so she's dam p'sulah. You want to hide yourself from dam nidah? Can you imagine a person says, you know what, put on red underwear, like as you want to know she has dam nidah. Mashenkin if you learn it's about the bi'ah, and then there's a tenai that it should be just below dam, because once there's dam we can't be matir it, so you can make it that you don't know if there's dam, it's also. Once you were goymer the bi'ah, you have your first bi'ah. Don't worry about it a second. Nothing to worry about. ... I told you last time also, in this ... one B and that's all. But the whole gezeirah was because of the dam. No, see, that's what I'm trying to tell you. Originally the whole gezeirah was because since bi'ah rishonah has dam, so they went and they assered bi'ah rishonah, whether you saw or you didn't see, whether you saw or you didn't see, bi'ah rishonah, whether you saw or you didn't see. And that's what I spoke to you last week. What happens if there's no psul and it's bi'ah rishonah? It could be the ... We spoke last week. We spoke about cases where it's still אסור. Okay, now, this l'choirah is the machlokes. If you learn that the dam is the mechayev, so you can't be mealel mayim. But if you learn the bi'ah rishonah is mechayev, narish pshat, it's called dam, there's still dam, so therefore we're not matir it, so you can be mealel mayim from the dam.

Now, I have a different shaila now. Could a person make hatarah and be poresh? Not that it slipped out. He bedavka makes hatarah and then he's poresh. Makes hatarah, he comes out, whatever. So the truth is, that's the next piece in the Rama, the ein l'sachek b'tinokos, right? U'baal nefesh yachush l'atzmoi shelo lischok b'tinokos. Has nothing to do with this Rama. No, it has nothing to do with this Rama. Why? This Rama is for the entire first night, which means don't be mischakek, because of bitul pirya v'rivya and the mitzvahs that night. But if you, that night itself, I want to know during the night. That means he's playing, he's not being bo'el. That means he's not being bo'el at all. He makes hatarah and he comes out. No, but I'm saying that's not what we're talking about. My situation, my situation I'm talking about is not—there's no problem of pirya v'rivya. I want to know a case where if the whole chisaron is pirya v'rivya, which means is you don't do it tonight, you do it tomorrow. That's what he's talking about. But I want to know in the same day, I don't hold there's a problem. Why should there be a problem? You're during the—you're biah, you come out, you could do what you want. Throughout the night, could he do this throughout the night? He can do whatever he wants. The only problem you would have is the other halachah. But if you make haro, and you goimer, it's aser, right? So where you slipped out, so I clarify to you that's not called goimer, because it slipped out. What happens if you bemechaven come out? So this is what I want to clarify. It could be, since my kavanah is not to be finished, this is how—he wants to do it in hadraga, he wants to do it in stages. Or that's called a part of bi'ah. What, gamar? What do you mean, gamar? Behaara. What? Behaara u'gamar. What do you mean by that? What do I mean by what? He did haara, and you said gamar, finished. Things like this. Could you make haro? What does he say there? Even the continuation, all the other ones considered part of first bi'ah. That's right. That's called bi'ah mitzvah. Why not? Why can't I do mamash bi'ah gemurah and say I'm not finished, I'm doing another one? But you finished the bi'ah, what do you mean? I'm not. I feel I—this is how I want to do it. You yotzei the mitzvah. So I was yotzei the mitzvah already. I was planning to do it the first time I did this. I don't know. The story of tenaikis is the next day. The story of tenaikis is you do this and you wait for the next day, and you mevatel the period from that night. But it's mashma that that same night there's no problem. He's asking if it's called a gemar bi'ah already, then why shouldn't—then even when you were goimer, also you should—I'm trying to explain to you, hara is never called a—it's called a bi'ah but not a gemar bi'ah. I keep on explaining that to you. Hara is called bi'ah but not gemar bi'ah. Finished? So who says it has to be that it fell out? Even if I keep on doing it that way, that's how he wants to do it. He wants to go slowly. Some women, they're scared. You know, slow, but that's finished. It's over. Went in and went out. It's over. Write it down. Write it down, and remember I told you, one day they're gonna say it over in my name, and you guys heard it first. You guys heard it first. You have the tape recorder to prove it to me, okay? Was it ha'ara v'gamar, what is it? Ha? You heard it first. Ha'ara v'gamar, what is it? Ha'ara is not gemar, and it has to be gemar. So therefore, if I want to make ha'ara and then come out, not fall out, I want to come out, and then go further a little bit more, slowly, back and start again. I don't do it. I told you, I don't do it. You want to go in with the— The yesod of it is that you have to be able to go in with a bi'ah. They gave you bi'ah l'rishonah. Does it matter how much you went in? No. According to Seder Taharah, you have to go in with a bi'ah. I mean, if you don't pass Seder Taharah, okay, listen. What's wrong? What's the problem? Because according to Seder Taharah, you need gemar. That's why I'm telling you, I'm not going with the shitas that you don't need gemar. If you look at the pesulim, you're right, you're finished. The moment you went in, you broke the pesulim, it's over. You shouldn't do that. It's a very big problem if you do that. If you start and stop.

No good. But if you learn like the Seder Taharah, that you need gomer bi'aso, it's mutar. And the Seder Taharah says that it has to be roiv ever but not kulo. I'm asking why a shiur? Who said? He said roiv ever, he says kulo. Okay, so this is not the—he's bekitzur. That's not the story of the Seder Taharah. Okay, so I'll show you. You know what, why don't you look it up? First of all, give me the Badei HaShulchan, we'll start. That's really—that's, I followed his lead in the Seder Taharah, so here. Go ahead, look at the Seder Taharah, no? It says like this. Huh? Close. Okay, so close it, close it. You have it? No? Kasva poskim, ad shehichnis kol ha'eiver. Hu bichlal hara, af shehichnis yoser matarah. Lachein, kol shebarash lo hichnis kol ha'eiver, v'gam lo matza dam, eino ne'esar. Omnam, im hu mistapek b'davarim ba'u le'el, biGemara... Right, so that's the shita that you have to put the whole thing, right? Okay. Lamed vav, lamed vav. Here. Chochmas Adam, taharah. Seder Taharah should noteh gam ki lehakel b'zeh. Af shelo hichnis kein l'dina b'ish shehigiya zman lir'os, v'chein mashma b'daas... yesh lehakel. Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. It's the Seder Taharah is mistapek in it. I'm telling you, that's what I'm saying. If you learn that you need the whole eiver, why? Haro is not the whole eiver. That's what he means. He means it's, kol zman you weren't gomer. The word haro in the Rambam—he's saying the word, that the word haro in the Rambam, that's called haro. So even if you're machnis the whole eiver, you're saying— He says it. I don't know. I didn't make it up. What do you want from me? If you're machnis the whole eiver, that's called the gemara. Why? I wasn't finished. But as long as you were gomer— Because that's called the gemara. I can't argue. I'm just asking. Rebbe's saying a guy can do this, because you could say that's how I do this. Not I said that that's how I do it. Haro is not called a complete thing. Rebbe said a person could be machnis and moitzi the entire— Not the whole, only by haro. Why? Because that's not called gemar bi'ah, right? Haro is not called gemar bi'ah. Why? Rebbe made it sound like the reason is because he decided he's not— No, no, no, no, no, because haro is not called gemar bi'ah. Haro, he's just starting. That's called starting. Nothing more. Haro is called starting. I'll hold that. Halacha l'maaseh, gevaldige chiddush, you hear? Teach the chassan, teach them. That will come to you. You'll have a line out the door. Teach them this thing, you'll have a line out the door. Basically, if you start— Okay, now. I know, I told you. Okay. Okay. Then in the ... it makes no difference. Okay, now. Another nakdamin is what I told you, this thing with ... I told you before. Now let's go learn a little bit further. Ready? Ready for more chidushim? Ready? Rafi can't take it. His heart can't take this chidush. Can't handle it, can't handle it. Most people here, it's not b'maiseh. If it was l'maaseh... Okay. Maybe you can start and try again. I don't know, maybe one at a time. Okay, yeah? Let's see, you want to continue for two days. That's called masechta. That's called masechta, I told you. Okay, now. Let's go learn now, lefi, l'oir ma shedibarnu. Rafi, that's good chidush, good chidush, good chidush. Emes a chidush, yeah? Chidush nifla, chidush nifla. Lefi the Seder Taharah, haro'eh is nothing, so you keep on going back and forth. I don't see why not. I don't see why not. Seder Taharah, unless you say you don't hold of Seder Taharah. Okay, it's not my problem. Now, I would tell you that by chasanim it's so difficult, be sameach in the Seder Taharah.

She feels pain, ... and she says it hurts me. That's it, it's finished, it's over. That's it, the night is over. He's still inside. Stop. He gets scared, he comes out. They all do that. They get scared, they come out. What if Machnis the whole ... comes out scared? Why? What did you do? I'm telling you. That's what it should be, ... Okay, now. Now it says like this: Noheg ima b'chol dinei nida. Mashma everything, huh? No, everything. What? Ela one difference: Shenidah gemurah, asur lishan al mitasah, afilu k'she'einah b'mitah. V'zu mutar lishan b'oisah mitah achar she'amdah me'atzlah. Now I want to discuss this, okay? Is the story the next day also? Could he sleep on her bed the next day? Could he sleep on the ... the next day? Or it's only l'achar she'amdah me'atzlah? I saw the Seder Taharah learns v'hu ha'din that she could sleep on his bed. So then it has nothing to do with that bi'ah. It has to do, stam, that they asur. Now the shailah is why? I never understood that. What, teretz is because it's not really dam nidah, but you're machmir on everything else. Why should there be such a halachah? So the way I learned it was as follows. You know how I learned it? Since we give you that bi'ah, so pshat in that bi'ah is, is to be lishan b'oisah mitah l'achar she'amdah me'atzlah. No, she's in my bed. I'm allowed to sleep on my bed. In other words, I'm allowed to continue. It's her bed, though. I'm saying, that's a big difference. I don't understand what the whole issue is. You're allowed to be kovea which bed is yours, so now you're kovea that this will be mine and the mini she's gone. No, but he's even telling you where. It's her bed. You sleep on the mat. You can switch. You're allowed to switch. Okay, he's not telling you that trick, obviously. He's telling you even where you're kovea that it's her bed. Okay, let me tell you about switch. Switching is a svara d'shmaitsa. We never heard of it in a nashkim. It's unheard of. The commenter can keep on saying, Okay, now it's mine, now it's yours, now it's mine, now it's yours. That's svara d'shmaitsa. Again, but whatever the story is, it's not that. Right, obviously not that. It's her bed. It's her bed, otherwise I don't need your halacha. You stam, the teretz is it is her bed, and it will be her bed. You're sleeping on the couch in the living room. That's the way it works, okay? She's sleeping in the double twin-size bed, and you're sleeping on the floor. That's the way it's going to happen for the rest of your life, okay? The first night, he gets to sleep there. So the shayla is why. Why? Why can he sleep there? So bishleima if you learn, again, that they were matir the first night. They were matir it. You're allowed to sleep in a bed. You're poyel, you're bo'el, like the same lomdus that Rav Nissim Karelitz says by poirish. To jump out of bed, where does he have to jump out? I'm bo'el, I run away. Take a taxi. See you later. I have to catch the train. I have to catch the train. Only for the first night. Also, then it comes that's only for the first night. It's only l'achas shanda. I'm telling you a goymer, but you're allowed to stay in a bed. So I'm telling you all that chakos has nothing to do with the bi'ah rishonah. It has to do with stam she's a niddah. Shabbos she's a niddah. I was thinking about it for a very long time. Where does it say continuously that you're allowed to sleep? A chosson is allowed to sleep in a kallah's bed. Now the Baal HaShulchan learns it that way. He learns that a chosson is allowed to sleep in a kallah's bed, even if there's dam over there. And he says, lefi zeh wants to make a ma'aseh chiddush, hatzaas hamitah will be mutar, because since hatzaas hamitah is all in the din of mitah, so she's allowed to make the bedspread. Okay? So even though it says in the halacha, b'chol dinei nidah, that's none of the nidah that has to do with what? With bed. So he says, oy bazoi, hatzaas hamitah will be mutar. And then he says a chiddush, even mezigas hakos, because since mezigas hakos was a takanah in mitah, says that it has to do with mitah. The Gemara puts it together with mitah, so maybe even mezigas hakos will also. Why? You can say the mitah is mutar because anyways he has his family room, he's waiting outside to see the dam betulim. There's no chashash. I didn't say that here. It will matir it. It says like this.

Yeah, it says like this. V'oid, v'oid, ha'efshar loimar d'gam mezigas hakos will be mutar by a kallah. D'hamezigas hakos kilu tfei mehatzoas hamitah. D'mahai ta'ama sherinu mezigah al yedei shinui matzoas hamitah, mitzah hapishinui, mimeila d'heir that they're matir matzoas hamitah, mimeila this will also be. I don't know what he's talking... I mean, b'chilas kavod, goyin adi, ... mufli. What is he saying? You know how he learns halacha? They want machmir on hatzoas hamitah, something like you do. So if we say hatzoas hamitah, how's mezigas hakos much less? That's how he learns the Shulchan Aruch. You're maskim. You're not. Finally I got him to not be machmir. You know what it is? If I argue on the Acharonim, then it becomes good also. Chaparei the lomdus. The lomdus I have to argue. What? You hear what he's doing? He's learning that's a kula. Mimeila he says, so hatzoas hamitah is a chelek of mitah, so therefore that will be mutar. And then he says mezigas hakos much less, I have... it's mutar. I says, choldinim, everything that's not so, like I guess the piercing you're not allowed. But the way I'm learning, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with goyim and the bi'ah. They gave you bi'ah rishonah, they didn't tell you get up and jump out. Now the shailah is, to me, was a chiddush, lachashomdem etzlem, it was a very big chiddush to me. Was that the minhag hamakom? Was that the way it was done? Why would she get up? I mean, we teach the chassan the other way around, that he should get up. She's in need, she has to sit on the side. That's how you bring... Who brings it down this way? She has to sleep on the side. So I guess from there also came that she leaves him. Yeah, but how can we teach it differently today? We tell our women to get out of the room, right? Even though it's niddah. You mean we don't do that. We're saying the whole get out of the room business we don't have. Why do you have to do the opposite? I tell you, that's what we teach. Why? Because you have to work on your middos. A person has to mechabed his wife, yoser mi'gufo. If there's one piece of bread, who gets it? She gets it. Huh? It's pashut, not because of halacha. It's not so pashut. Of course it has to do with halacha. Otherwise, why should maybe you, she should get up. Maybe you're tired and she's excited, I don't know. It's derech eretz. The derech eretz is, if you have one piece of bread, you give it to your wife. Mechabdah yoser mi'gufo. Metchilah nata ohel lishto, v'achar kach in house in Yadam, first comes the wife. I understand that. Whatever the... al tzilcha's derech eretz, but you see the mechaber didn't have that. So I don't know, maybe in those countries, you know, I don't know, the wife was second, was cattle, I don't know. Okay, b'kitzur, that's the yesod I want to tighten. It could be it has nothing to do with what, rabosai. It has to do with lacha she'omdim me'atzlo. You hear? It has to do with, once you're in the bed, goymer. She got up doesn't mean that you have to jump out of bed. That's part of goymer. Pirush would be the next day, huh? Yeah, but why would it be that? I mean, the chiddush is the blood part. It says that... So then, no, he says, mashma you can't sleep on her bed. U'oisa mitah is mashma that it's her bed. Huh? No, I know he's not. I know that. Right, I understand that that's the pashut pshat in the Rambam, and therefore the Badei HaShulchan goes to town to explain, but I'm being medayek, l'achar she'amdah me'atzloi. Maybe chiddush, maybe it's just that night. I mean, the wording is mashma that night. It's not mashma period. And it has to do with this halacha. Let me just see if I'm done. Hey, how does the wording seem like only that night? L'achar she'amdah me'atzloi, v'zu mutar loi lisha b'osah mitah. Why can't you just hear that? Again, v'zu mutar loi lisha b'osah mitah. From here on. L'achar she'amdah me'atzloi. Until when? What do you mean, l'achar she...? Why only then? Starting now, that's how we learn, from here on. Starting now till then. V'afilu b'shaas shedam al... You think they keep the blood? You think the next day the blood... Even though the first day it's very chamur, and you mamash have dam there, it doesn't...