Hilchos Tumas Leidah: Birth Without Blood, Pesichas HaKever, and Caesarean Delivery

Transcript

Afilu lo rasa dam. A yoledes, even if she didn't see dam, temeiah, kenidah. So we will medayek, in the words of the Shulchan Aruch, afilu lo rasa dam, even if she didn't see. What does that mean? Does that mean even if she didn't see, maybe there is? She'll be choshesh that there is, but she didn't see. Or the pshat is, yoledes, even if it's lo yetzuyah, theoretically, theoretically, there'll be no dam, she'd still be temeiah. So the Sidrei Taharah, the seif katan aleph, asks this for a she'eilah: there's no such thing. A person who gives birth is going to have dam. So what kind of a story is afilu lo rasa dam? I mean, how could you talk about afilu lo rasa dam? It's a hypothetical which does not negate anything. It's a hypothetical which does not negate anything. Ein sichas hakatuv bli dam. So what's it to talk about? So the Sidrei Taharah gives a teretz l'rabbusa. It's trying to say chiddush that a yoledes is temeiah even if she didn't see dam. It's not the dam that makes—oh, so he doesn't say that. That's not what he says. What the Sidrei Taharah says is it's a rabbusa, because even if she wouldn't, she'd be tamei. But avada she sees, she's tehorah, right? Okay. So the kasha, of course, is—what's the kasha, Rabbi…? What do you want? What's a negeya, right? Choyr, it's not negeya anything. LaRabusa, tashmier Reb Shmuel, tashmei ma shekoreh po. Yeledes, roiah dam, ein kazeh davar. There can't be such a thing that she's not a ro'uyah dam. Ein psichas hakever. Even if the kever opens up, niftach, yesh dam. אז בשביל מה צריך לכתוב אפילו לא ראתה דם? עונה הסדרי טהרה, סדרי טהרה answers, לרבוסה, שאפילו אם לא. אז בשביל מה צריך להגיד את זה? אפילו אם לא, למעשה היא רואה, so what do you want? She's a nidah. Kin nidah, she's a nidah. Another shaila, l'choirah, you have to ask. Tosafos in Kerisos, דף י, דיבור המתחיל אי, asks this kushya: What do I need two mas leidah? It's anyway tmeiah al tz nidah, because ein psichas hakever bli dam. So he answers that the chiddush is not the seven; the chiddush is the two weeks. You would say everyone is two weeks. So it's not l'rabos, it's not to include, to be marbeh zayin, but it's to exclude on a zachar two weeks. It's more about the nekeivah than it is about the zachar, because the zachar is anyway. The zachar is anyway tamei. For a zachar, it's tamei because of seven days; she's a regular nidah. So the chiddush is, you would say maybe she's tamei—no. Maybe you would say she's tamei for two weeks, like a nekeivah, kamashmalan seven days. That's not what Tosafos says, but the seven is also chiddush. By zachar. That's what I'm saying. The chiddush is that, A, there's a tumas leidah two weeks by nekeivah, and that that is sever by zachar. That's what Tosafos says. Again, Tosafos asks the kasha. It's anyway tameiah. So Tosafos says the chiddush is the nekeivah, two weeks and not the zachar two weeks. So it comes out an interesting chiddush. I would think that by zachar also two weeks for shivah nekiyim? I would say, first of all, there should be two weeks — I mean one week stam because of niddah. Two weeks, there's two weeks for the nekeivah. And then I would say maybe a zachar also, kamashma lan, zachar seven. So there's never a chiddush in seven that she's a niddah. That's Tosafos. So it comes out a very big chiddush in Tosafos, I hold, that according to Tosafos, she's taka tameiah al tzniddah. Tosafos is saying a vort that it's taka not a chiddush the first seven days. So what Tosafos is saying is because she taka is a niddah for those seven days. Again, let's work it out, right? If Tosafos says that the chiddush is, then you would say maybe it's two weeks, and that's why it says...

Seven days, and the assumption of this kash is because anyway she'd be tameiah. So he's saying that she's taka tamei of seven days al tnida. And the parshah of the Torah is to tell me that it's only seven. So it comes out a very interesting thing. It starts off as a nidah, and that's what the zachar is. Then maybe the nekeivah should stop at seven also, kamashmalan she doesn't. Now why doesn't she stop at seven? Because she's a nidah for longer, or because now starts a new parshah of tumas leidah. And then the shaylah becomes, now that there is a new parshah of tumas leidah, so what happens to the zachar? Does the zachar remain a regular nidah, or there is taka a new parshah of tumas leidah by zachar and it's only for seven days? If that's a beautiful Tosafos. This is mamash what we talked about. You hear? Yeah, you listening? Okay. In Shulchan Aruch says a chiddush, af al pi shelo rasa dam. Could there be such a thing? says the Seder Taharah, no. So that means is that a woman is going to be a nidah when she's a yoledes. Period. Yoledes is a nidah. Az achshav, hashe'eilah sho'el Tosafos, so what do you need the parshah for? So what do you need the parshah? So Tosafos doesn't answer for the nekeivah. You know why? Because the zachar says seven days. So you see there's a chiddush in zachar also. The answer is, Tosafos, the chiddush is shehazachar rak shema. Iti choshev shezeh... שבועיים כנקבה קמשמע לן רק. אז לכאורה יכולים להגיד שבאמת השבע של הזכר זה רק נידה. למעשה, לפי תוספות זה רק נידה. עכשיו צריכים לחקור, אז מה האי סופה של נקבה? אז יכולים להגיד, כמה... אפשריות. או שיכולים להגיד שהנידה שלה ממשיך שבועיים, that's what it says. הטומאת נידה ממשיכה אצלה שבועיים. או שיכולים... I mean, האמת היא בדרך כלל הם לא גומרים לראות; it's almost usually never stops after a week. So we're going to say that the טומאת נידה is ממשיך. Or the other... or the פשט is that there's a new טומאה. And the פשט could be is now we have to clarify: was it a new טומאה all the time, or it was נידה seven and seven טומאת לידה? And then it נפקא מינה would be the זכר, because by the זכר it's seven, which definitely has to do with נידה. Is that only נידה, or that's נידה and יולדת? Because you see by the נקבה that it's נידה and יולדת. So that's the שאלה how to learn up the תוספות. Now, סדרי טהרה. The סדרי טהרה is משמע that לו יצויר the ווסת no dam, למעשה she'd still be טמאה. So according to the סדרי טהרה, you have to say that he was taking on that has nothing to do with נידה. So this could be the מחלוקת over here, and that's what I told you last year. Is the פשט that it's נידה? It's רק נידה. Right? Uvda pshat is that has nothing to do with nida. It's tumas leida, nothing to do with nida. And the chiddush is, temeiah k'nidah only l'gabei the halachos. Again, yoledes afilu lo ra'asa dam. Peirush, she didn't see dam, and then we're choshesh for dam anyway? Is that what it means? Or the pshat is, yoledes afilu, like the Seder Taharah, completely without dam. And af al pi kein, yoledes is a tumah that's called tumas leida. So either there's tumas nidas leida, tumas nida which was nigram al yedei leida, or there's tumas leida. Does everybody understand this? So if someone asks you, why is a woman tameiah after her birth? It's not so pashut. Either according to the Seder Taharah, it's mashma that it has nothing to do with the dam. But she'ein kein, according to the Tosafos, according to Tosafos, it has to do with nida, right? Now, ... says it has to do with nida. Does that mean that even if she didn't see, but there might be that there was? Could be. Who are you talking about? Tosafos. We're not sure. I'm not ready to finish with Tosafos yet. One thing for sure, one thing for sure, that it's something to do with nida. That's Tosafos.

You want to read the Siddur Taharah? You want to see it inside? What? No, but I'm saying, but you hear it. Those are the two ways to learn over here, which is, truthfully, that's the sikum of the previous shiur. I started this last shiur. Is it nida, or the pshat is it's kin nida l'gabei halachos, but it's tumas leidah; it's not tumas nida. Now I want to explain to you the עומק of what this is all about. According to the Siddur Taharah, I believe that the dam is irrelevant, and it's the ma'aseh leidah. The ma'aseh leidah is gorem tumah. Isha ki tazria, veyalda zachar, right? That's what it is. It doesn't say anything about nida. There's not one word in the pasuk, you know, that doesn't say one word that she bleeds during the thing. It's isha ki tazria veyalda zachar. It's about giving birth, all right? Rambam, in perek yud, halacha aleph, brings this halacha, afilu lo ra'asa dam, which is the lashon of the Mechaber. The Kesef Mishneh says, What do you mean, afilu lo ra'asa dam? I ein psichas hakever blo dam. So he says that the Rambam paskens yesh psichas hakever blo dam. So this lashon of the Mechaber is really based on the Rambam, that doesn't have to be dam bichlal. So you see clearly that it's tumas leidah, not tumas dam. Bring me the Kesef Mishneh. I want to read it inside, so it's gevaldige Kesef Mishneh, because there's a machlokes Rishonim—I'm sorry, there's a machlokes Tannaim—in yesh Tana Kamma and Rabbi Yehuda, im yesh psichas hakever blo dam, and the Rambam paskens there is such a thing as psichas hakever blo dam. So pashut you have to say that it's possible. No, but it's the Metzius. They're arguing in the metzius. Yeah, they're arguing in the metzius. Yeah? They're arguing in the metzius. Yeah? Here. Here, come here. Who wants to read it over here, huh? You knew this? You knew this machlokes? Yeah, yeah. You learned this. This is for checking doctor, machnis katzorich, and tznia anyway, the Rambam. Aha, aha, aha, okay, okay. I mean, you didn't learn it here; you learned it somewhere else, you mean, before. Before, okay. So this is—I'm saying beautiful pshat now. I'm proving what I told you in the last shiur, that this lashon mechaber is really the Rambam, and the Kesef Mishneh bases it on ein poskin kerabbi Eliezer. So the Seder Taharah doesn't have to come and say it's l'Rabbusa. It's not even l'Rabbusa. Oh, but you can't come and say we don't hold of the Rambam. The mechaber himself, the mechaber himself is quoting the Rambam. You want to say we don't hold of that Rambam? Why should you do that? It's harmless. I'm going to prove that we do hold of that Rambam. What's wrong? I'm going to prove to you that the Rambam paskens it's a din in the leida from every—I'm sorry, the Shulchan Aruch paskens it's a din in the leida from every halacha in this se'if. Every halacha. I'll show you that it's in the leida. Let's take a look. Take a look. Kol hayoledes temeiah, kol hayoledes, kol hayoledes. You hear? The lashon of the Shulchan Aruch is yoledes. What is yoledes? It's the woman. The Rambam, kol hayoledes. What does kol mean? When you say kol hayoledes, you don't mean all yoledes. What do you mean? Any who gives birth. See the difference? The action. When you want to talk about the person, you say yoledes. When you want to talk about the action, it's kol hayoledes. I hold the Rambam learns that the tumas nidah is in the ma'aseh. Kol hayoledes, tameiah kenidah. She becomes tameiah kenidah. Ve'af al pi shelo ra'as dam, even though she didn't see dam. Okay? Now it's interesting that there's no hei here. I was thinking ra'asa should really be in the Shulchan Aruch as a hei. In the Rambam there's no hei. Ve'af al pi shelo ra'as dam. Now I'm not sure in dikduk if there's a difference. Maybe the ra'asa, kesherotzim lehagid, ata beli hei. Yacholim gam beli hei, ra'asa, reish aleph taf. I'm thinking. This is going for a woman. Shneihem lashon nekeivah. Maybe he's saying you could read ra'ata even without a hei also.

I know that. I'm not sure that's what it is. I know. Ra'atah. I know. I don't know. Or the pshat is, it's not ra'atah, it's af al פי שלא ראתה, it's on the ma'aseh. In other words, shelo nireh dam, yeah. Huh? Bediuk, yecholim l'hagid it's not ra'asa that she saw; the yoledes, the ma'aseh leidah was beliri'as dam. Okay. I know it's the Rambam, af al פי שלא... Okay, now, first of all, that goyish ma'amini right away comes and says, Wait a minute. Here, there's machlokes, psik reisha kever, here, halacha k'Rebbi Yehuda, af al gav d'Rabbanan פליגי עליה, v'tzarichin... it's not, whatever. But that the Rambam is paskening this halacha comes along the Kesef Mishneh, and the Kesef Mishneh says like this: אף על פי שרבינו כותב פרק ה' חתיכה אף על פי שהיא אדומה, אם יש עמה דם טמאה, ואם לאו טהורה. So you see that it has to do with the dam, right? If there's dam, she's, right? ודברים דברים שפסק תנא קמא, דרבי יהודה, דסבר אפשר לפסיקת הקבר בלא דם, because he's mechalek. He says if there is dam, if—what do you mean? Every time you give birth there has to be dam, right? וכי זה הרב מגיד פירושו, והביא לו ראיה, כתב כאן שהיולדת טמאה כנידה אף על פי שלא ראתה דם. So therefore he writes this. והטעם, משום דקרע דמטמא לה שבולת זוחל, ... אפילו בלא ראתה, מטמא לה משום לידה, which means the diuk I told you. Pasuk didn't say one word about dam. Pasuk just says she's tameiah. וככה זה רש"י, ... אפל חתיכה ואינו דם, אפשר לפסיקת הקבר בלא דם. So therefore that's what the Rambam holds. Okay, so we have over here a machlokes, and Baruch Hashem, kivanu tov in the previous shiur, when I was learning the Shulchan Aruch, this was going through my mind. Do we mean tumas leidah, or do we mean tumas dam of leidah? Now. I want to taina that there's a halacha called dam tohar. Now what is dam tohar? What is dam tohar? Is dam tohar toli in the zman. In other words, like this: okay, she sees dam. Afterwards, she has a period of grace. We give you off a break. We give you a two-week break. Well, the pshat is that the dam leida is not metameh; it's the leida that's metameh. As soon as she's a yoledes, she's metameh, and that the dam tohar is taka the same dam as the dam leida. Again, let's say after the seven days, what happens after the seven days? Does she have to stop and then start again? Afilu sheifas, right? In other words, the flow is still going, so l'choira it's the same re'iyah, right? So then why is it mutar? So either the taich is, I would say, one of two things. I would say it's mutar because dam yoledes is taka mutar. The dam is always mutar; it's the yoledes. So she's beginning yoledes for two weeks only. I hold this. I said this last year, but when I called you over, I was telling you this. Oh, the second side is, for karet, that the Torah said this dam sometimes is mutar, sometimes is asur. It's mutar for two weeks, it's asur for forty days, it's mutar. Same dam. You like it. It's beautiful, beautiful. No, you're very, very, very... You hear what we're discussing? She's continuing to bleed, so what's called dam tahor. So the truth is, the lashon is mashma, what Ilan, that the dam—it's the dam that was once tamei, now it's tahor. That's called dam tahor. Or the pshat is, the dam is anyway tahor. That's the pshat, it's dam tahor. It was always called dam tahor. Now there's a tumas leidah. But if you don't see from Gemara that the Rambam maybe... shnei mayanos, mayan echad, so it's because of blood, not because of... You see, not that way. There's no blood. I'm showing you not that way. The Rambam is not like that. The Rambam is not like that. The Rambam learns—I'm showing you clearly—the Rambam in the Kesef Mishneh...

Tell me that has nothing to do with dam. Nothing. So, leida. So I'm saying a pashut cheshbon. So what happened? She saw blood, and then she continues the next day. What, it's a new blood? It's something new? It's not new. It's that blood. So what's the taich? The taich is now, it's this period. Okay, now it's like zivus and then nidus. Okay, you went into the period. Like the machlokes, the Rambam and then the Rishonim, right, that the same blood, but it's continuing. But it's a different day. The Rambam holds a certain amount of days, so maybe the same thing, a certain amount of days. That once you went into the next cycle of zman tohar, so then it's dam tohar. Oy, the pshat is, shema, shedam atzmo tamid hayah dam tohar. The dam was never the problem, but what was it, rabosai? No, the leida. So the leida, seven and fourteen. I'm going to show you the nafka mina in this, you ready? Through the dinim in the Shulchan Aruch itself. Let's look at se'if yud. Let's look at se'if yud. Nechtach havlad bimei eha, veyatza ever ever. Abortion. They made a partial birth abortion here. Now, nechtach mistama doesn't mean chatchila. It doesn't mean chatchulah. That it cut by itself? Of course. That's what it means, nechta by itself, right? But nechta, the idea is evarim, evarim. בין שיצא על סדר איברים. Harry, this means the borsh or maybe the baby just— Avada it doesn't mean that you did it. It happened. It happened. Whatever borshin that they killed, the partial birth abortion, it's the same thing that happened by itself. Of course it's that it happened, because you're not allowed to do it, but I'm telling you that it comes out the same thing, pieces, okay? There's something called partial birth abortion that they break, that they cut the brain out, they suck the brain out. That's evarim, evarim. They first take out the brain, then they take out the body. That's a sick thing. I never saw a video, but I don't need to. It's crazy. That's a— to suck a baby's brain, I don't know, it's alive. I mean, the baby's alive. You can't say it's not alive. כגון שיצא רגל ואחריה השוק ואחריה הירך, בין שיצא שלא על הסדר, אינה טמאה לידה עד שיצא רובה. Um, what happened to—? Huh? So what does the Shach say? כלומר מדאורייתא אינה טמאה לידה. ויצא איבר וחזר, כיל כמאן, וטמאה גם כן נידה, אפילו מדרבנן, דאפשר לפסיחת הקבר בלא דם. So what do you see from here? That the din of leida has nothing to do with psichas hakever. So what do you see from here? And if you hold there's another din of psichas hakever, so there's a side halacha. Again, because he's saying, because it's saying clearly, she's not temeiah. What do you mean? Until this. So what do you mean? I, the psichas hakever, I had opened up, and then, and then, and then. So the shach has to... You're right. What we mean is that in tumas leidah you're not, right? But in hilchos tumas nidah you will be. I mean, first of all, it's very strange to learn the Shulchan Aruch that way, because, nagain, halachah l'maaseh then. But it says, Ein ha-temeiah leidah. Dam tohar. When do you give her dam tohar? It's a big difference. It came out right now before... You mean there's no dam tohar? That's what you mean. When does it start? When does the dam tohar start? She nidah as soon as the first blood comes out, but until re'iyah comes out, it's not called leidah, and therefore it's the next day, and the seventh day comes later. Right. It's counted different. But he's trying to say what's that: Kol omer d'oraisa, eina temeiah leidah. She's not yet called a yoledes. She's a nidah. But wait a minute, wait a minute. You don't feel that the Shulchan Aruch is talking halachah for right now if she's temeiah? You're making it the nafkamina dam tohar, but it doesn't talk about dam tohar. But one second, are you maskim that the Shulchan Aruch is not talking about dam tohar; it's talking about now when she's temeiah leidah? How's it negea? Because how many days, from when do you count?

From tomorrow she'll be a yoledes. So she means she could stop bleeding, but she has to wait the eight days because al tzeledes. Again, you don't think that this case is for right now, if she's tamei or not? Let's say if she's— Right now, this second, which shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter, right? But the lashon of the Shulchan Aruch is this. It's not about later and further and— I don't know. I didn't learn that way. I learned that it was nogea for right now. She's not tamei leida ad sheyeitzei rubo. I mean, then you want to say that it has to— Do you hear what I want? Let me just say. Right, that the nidon is about now, which is the pshat even though the dam leida is here already. Right, yes or no? I understand. We're talking about the whole siman is called leida. No, because that's what the tamei is. But one second. Either way, either way, are you maskim that kloimar mi'de'oraisa eina tamei leida, which is the pshat even though the dam leida is here already? I think it makes a difference. I see that it's independent on the psichas hakever. That's what I was trying to prove from here. I'm trying to prove that— It doesn't make a difference if it's psichas hakever. I'm trying to prove that there's a sugya called leida, which has nothing to do with psichas hakever and meila. Once you say that, then you can come and learn the Shulchan Aruch like the Rambam, that there is no sugya of psichas hakever. No, but you're missing my point. What I'm trying to say is like this: when you learn the first thing that every yoledes leiros hadam is because we hold there will be dam, is that what— is that what— but the Seder Taharah learns like that. I'm saying the Tosafos seems to be learning that way. Why? Tosafos meant to say, once you mention nikevah, that she has a special tumas leidah, even a zachar will have a special tumas leidah. Zachar, it's only seven days, not that the zachar falls back to nidah. Okay, so I'm going to challenge you that I know that every single cheating sefer brings it down not the way I did the other way, because ein psichas hakever blo dam, so we have to be choshesh that there's dam there. And therefore she's tamei always, like every time that we're choshesh that there's dam there. Yes, I'm telling you that has nothing to do with that. I'm telling you tumas leidah has nothing to do with that. Means there's a separate din that whenever yoledes— afilu leiros hadam is not because— but you didn't see psichas hakever. I hold it has nothing to do with psichas hakever, and I'm proving it from over here that you see from this halacha that there is psichas hakever and she's still not tamei tumas leidah, right? I'm going to say further that could be even if there's a din of psichas hakever, I'm going to prove this, it's a din in the leidah. That could be. That's what I want. What I want to say is like this: when you learn the Shulchan Aruch, okay, right away it's leidah and psichas hakever. That's the first thing that strikes you, because you see from this halacha. You see clearly that the psichas hakever was, but she's still not tumas leidah. Now, does that mean— That the tumas leida here, that the tumas leida is completely without psichas hakever, it's also. That's what I want to say. In other words, to come and say that the psichas hakever is the whole halacha, that you can't say, because here you have psichas hakever, there's no tumas leida. But to say that tumas leida is completely without psichas hakever, that you can't say. What's the geirem of tumah then? Huh? What's the geirem of tumah? We can discuss that. Okay, and I'll tell you where I got this. I'll tell you where I got this from. So first of all, see if it's clear that if you cut it out, it's still not what? It's still not leida, because leida means roi. Yeah, but l'maaseh she's giving birth and it's coming out, and her womb is open and she's bleeding, there's no tumas leida. So you see tumas leida is separate from the din of psichas hakever. Does that mean that leida is without psichas hakever? We're going to have to discuss this. Now let me show what I want. Here, halacha yud aleph. Hotzi ha'ubar...

Es yadoi, vechazirah imoi, temeiah leida. Okay. Then she is tamei. Okay. The mother put the hand back. Because if he put the hand back, you have peretz. That's the whole story with peretz, ma peretz alecha peretz. I don't know, so then the pshat is that the leida was complete. Or, if I can't, leida wasn't complete, I mean, that's what he's trying to say. If he put it back and the leida is not complete, that's the story of peretz. I know, but the lashon of Shulchan Aruch is chazirah. No, but it's imoi, you see, clear. No, but it says imoi, the mother did it. Okay, let's see. Hotziah ubras yadoi, vehechzirah imoi. So why we— it says imoi. What, the temeiah? Who else? What, the nurse is temeiah leida? I don't mean that. Imoi means that someone else besides— I know, but it's an interesting lashon, imoi. Why can't you say, because in olden days women used to give birth in the house, so they did it themselves. It's not in the hospital where you have all the nurses and everything. Just say, olah yadoi. Who, Verzira? Maybe it's the girl. She's a baby girl. Verzira, she or something. Okay. Now, oh, so I'm clarifying like this, okay? Either way, let's say, so we learn out from Peretz that that's called vayiten yad, that even an ever becomes a leida, yeah? What's the chiddush? Maisa, this p'sikta keva. Lo yatza kula, right? I understand, right? So then what's the maila of yad if lo yatza? If the shiur is that you want the baby to be born, so what's the maila of yad? Peretz gzeiras hakasuv. I'm trying to figure out, vas vil da Torah? If you need rubo, so then the pshat is because you need the baby. So what's the ever? Hotzi ubres yadoi, or ragloi, or some other ever. So what's the pshat? Because even one ever makes it. What is that? I mean, p'sikta keva you have anyway. Lo yetzuir, lo yetzuir, right? Yet ever, ever, vloi rubo. This is not lidah. Now all of a sudden you say the teretz is because it's alive, right? What? Not mechutach. So what's the chiddush here then? In which halacha is there a chiddush? I'm 66 gzeiras hakasuv you're telling me. I understand, but that's not what the Shulchan Aruch says. So Rambs asks me, imoi tmeiah leida. The chiddush is, and we learn it from a pasuk. He brings the Gemara. The Gemara says we learn from a pasuk. Hoitzis yad, vachziro, because we learn, nidah chaf-ches, Vayehi baledetah vayiten yad. So what do I need—what is that chiddush? I don't understand the question. That's a very pashut zach. I don't understand. Did the ruboi come out? No. Is there p'sichas hakever? It has to be p'sichas hakever, right? So the shaila is, in which halacha is nischadesh that only one ever? What do I mean by the leida? I'm going to say it—I'm going to say a chap, and once you chap it, you'll see I'm 100% right. If you learn that you need a leida, right? Right? If you learn you need a leida, so b'emes the leida here was not a leida, because the baby went back. Legabi bechor, who was taka born first? The second one was born first. אי למעשה the first one, there was a leida already. Teretz is there wasn't a leida. It wasn't born. No, I'm tying a vort.

I'm taining, the yesod of psichas hakever is to be moiled. It's not about a leida. Again, listen carefully. Whenever there's a psichas hakever, whenever there's a psichas hakever, so the tumah is the psichas hakever. But it has to be a psichas hakever. You know how the lashon I would use? A normal psichas hakever. A natural psichas hakever. Leida is a natural psichas hakever. No, the opposite. So you would come and say like this, that even though there was no leida l'maaseh, it opened. I don't care that it opened. There's nothing wrong if it opens. It has to be a leida-dike opening. So since it went back, maybe there's no leida, kamashmalan, there was a leida. What I learned before is it was a leida, but it was evarim evarim. That's different. That's a little different. There the pshat didn't go back. Here there's a meydike story. It went back. The first one taka wasn't moiled. I don't care. If all I care, you know what, write this down. If all I care was about psichas hakever, there's tumah. I know what you want. Elamai, there's a special din that you have to have rov of the baby. That's not rov of the baby. Right? So what we have to go into the sugya is of beriah, that since it's an ever shalem and it's an ever chai, and maybe, I don't know, maybe you have to go into those halachos. You have to go into the halachos of beriah and chashivus and ever chai. Maybe, maybe, could be. I tell you, we could say a meydike chiddush over here, a chiddush is a chazirah. The whole problem of psichas hakever is a psichas hakever for holadah. I taina something else. The psichas—let's say he stuck his hand out, yeah? He stuck his hand out, lo yatzuir, the kever would close, and then he would push his hand in, and because of that he would open up the kever, it wouldn't be tamei. I'm just saying, theoretically. In other words, the point is, here you had the first psichas hakever, which didn't do leida, because the baby went back in. One more time. One more time. Hotzi ha'ubar es yado, vhechzira is a chiddush in leida. It's not a chiddush in psichas hamekor, right? If you learn that the din is about psichas hamekor, so then there's no shayla here. I don't know what exactly the shayla, unless you say it's a tenai. Like the first case, and then you have to learn the Shach the same way also. Yeah, and to later, and stam tamei because it's psichas hakever. Shach doesn't say it on here. I taineh this case, stam tehorah. Huh? Yeah. In other words, like this: you don't have the shtiklach tehorah of anyway tamei, and the ... is a chiddush in later. Which means, sheit maybe sheit tehorah right now, it's al tnai or not, that's what I want to know. She took his hand out and put it back, and for two more days it didn't come out. Is she a nida? Is she a nida? She's not the nida, the parshah of nida. She's nida of your leda. She's called the leda. Right. She's a nida. She's a regular nida. No. You're missing my point. No, you missed— no, no. In other words, like this: the din of the mechaber before, the din of the mechaber before, that it was yatza but it lacked in leda, that's only a chiluk in Hilchos leda alone, alone, and the psichas hamakor is there anyway, and therefore you have a problem. She's anyway a nida, so efshar psichas hamakor, ganze ma'asis. The Shach doesn't talk about it over here. He doesn't have to, because you're saying he spoke about it before. I would say— no, because I would say—

I feel idiotic, because I like that. That's what I want to do. I like that. That's how I feel. I can't—I'm not allowed feelings? Okay. I want to tie in the hotzi ha'ubar es yado v'chazarah imo. There's a special chiddush of tumas leidah. Meaning, meaning, huh? What is it, chilukim now? I know it's very, very—I like—what's wrong with very, very? Who says I can't come and say a shiur and say very, very? I want to. Then there's chilukim then. If it's half an eiver, it's not called leidah. That's anyway. How much of an eiver? But that's anyway. I'm saying, when he— That's anyway. What's called hotzi revi? That's anyway. Hotzi ha'ubar yado, what's called yado? Put it back. Two weeks later he was born. This whole time she was not an niddah. No. Not a niddah. She was tumas leidah. Wait, wait, wait. She was tumas leidah, but she was not a niddah. She means, technically speaking, after that she was—I don't even know what the halacha was. Hotzi yado, ... הרי זו טמאה לידה, ואין נותנין לה ימי טהרה עד שיולד. Tumas leidah. That's what she is. He's saying that tumas leidah she is, but she's not a regular niddah. She has a tumas leidah. She only gives birth a month after that. Let's say the baby stopped pushed out. So tumas leidah is finished. A week passed, he says, oh, we did an X-ray, whatever it's called, sonogram, he says, oh. So the first— But he's telling you that yemei taharah doesn't start until he actually comes out totally. So it comes out there's no after. In other words, until he comes out, the actual laws of yemei taharah doesn't come, but tumas leidah is already there. Also, ... she's already tamei tumas leidah, because there's a leidah here. There was a leidah here. How much of— I'm arguing with Reb, who said, but that's not called a psichas ha'kever for niddah, for nidus. That's not what I said. What I said was it's irrelevant for the nidus. In other words, the first thing is relevant for the nidus. Because you can't say that what, that she's tameiah, right? So says the Shach. What do you mean she's tameiah anyway? So what are you talking about? Mashenkin over here, it's shayach that she wouldn't be tameiah if there was no dam, if there was no dam. Af al pi shelo ra'asa dam, let's say there's no dam. If we hold, in fact, that ein safek karev l'vadai, it doesn't matter. There is no dam. There really is dam, you don't know. If we hold the halacha of ein safek karev... Yeah, but let's say you hold ein safek karev l'vadai, ein safek karev l'vadai, which means vadai there must have been, and now the blood didn't see it. Took his hand out, and that second drop of blood came out. She's neither regular, and she's also yoledes. You have the two issurim with one. No, I know. So then the pshat is the Shach is here too, and I'm saying the chiddush would be two different chiddushim in what's called either rubo, or I'm saying that has to, or rubo or ever shalem. That's how you learn the sugya: or rubo, or yud aleph, ever shalem. I'm saying a chiddush v'chazirah. Rubo or ever shalem? I have a better question for you. You ready? What would be a case, lo hechsir... Loy hachsir. You listening to me? Loy hachsir. But it took two hours from the hand came out, but the body was still inside, which happens all the time. So I'm asking, why do you need hachzira? Even loy hachzira. Sticking out. It happens. Sure it happens. Say once the end came out, so obviously the beginning was this here. You could have thought to say that he put his hand back, so that's canceled. Who cares? But that's my shaila, but who cares? L'maaseh, psikas hakever, who cares? But she's not a yoledes yet, I would say. And what's it—I'm saying, what would be nogea? Nogea, you maytor, it's nogea everything. Her entire schedule is nogea, and korban, everything. I'm saying whatever is... Okay, so I want you to write down the following chiddush, and we'll argue about it a different time, because the zman is ending in 11 minutes, so we have to count down to 11 minutes. I'm going to taina, and we'll get back to this, that the psichas hakever that's not resulting in leida doesn't aser psichas hakever for leida. Let's move on. Now, okay, let's take a look at...

Halacha vav. Yatza mikzas shilya b'yom rishon, v'lo nigmera yetziasah ad yom beis, which is more or less what I wanted, okay? Half the birth here and half the birth there. Chaysheshes l'yom rishon, aval eina moneh ela miyom sheini. Tosafos explains, why is it that it's eina moneh miyom sheini but chaysheshes? Because there's a sfek sfeika. What does that mean, first of all? Chaysheshes means she's worried that she's temeiah now, okay? But the zmanim of counting start tomorrow. Okay, comes along the Tosafos and he says the reason why we're chaysheshes, right, is because we have over here a sfek sfeika. What is the sfek sfeika over here? It's a safek, it's a safek that there's no vlad, right? And then there's a safek if it has the shiur of leida. No, what I'm saying is, you have two sfeikos. It was miktzas, yatza mikzas shilya b'yom rishon, so you don't know if, A, first of all, you don't know if it's called a birth, and even if it's called a birth, the shiurim, because it's only mikzas shilya, maybe most of it came out the next day. No, so therefore you can only be moneh miyom sheini. It works both ways. Chosheshes, chosheshes, we're going to be machmir, right? But at the same time, it's only modeh miyom sheini because there's a safek-sfeika on the yom rishon, which is l'chumra. Right, there's a safek-sfeika l'chumra, but that's when it's negea, right? It's a safek, maybe this is not called the leida, and even if it's called the leida, right, but maybe we go after the rov of the leida. Comes along Reb Akiva Eiger, huh? He explains it this way. He brings the Tosafos. It's a safek, I told you, it's Tosafos. Oh, he brings it, hikshu, it's a Tosafos here. D'havi safek-sfeika, shema yatza rubo b'rishon, v'item tzolaim b'sheini. Ah, that's what a safek-sfeika is, right? No, I see, but he explains—one second, you'll soon see. V'item tzolaim b'sheini, shema haya zachar v'nimnim miyom rishon. We don't know what it is even. We don't even know what the baby is. Right. Right. V'tirtzu, d'havi trei kulei d'sasri l'hadadi. Can Rebbi say the safek-sfeika how he says it? Ah, he brings takke this pischei teshuva. See, this is what I wanted. I didn't see the Seder Taharah. This is what I wanted. The Chazon Zacher mashma, b'Gemara, amrinan d'efshar p'sisah kera b'lo dam. Aval lidon, d'i afshar lepsichas hakever bloi dam, harei kvar temeiah nidah miyom rishon, gam im lo neichesh leleidah. Psichas hakever, that's what I wanted. Okay, you stole my shiur. I wanted to tighten this up. What are you afraid of? Maybe it's not a leidah, right? Till tomorrow. What's the difference? But mikzas shilya came out. She needs anyway. I don't צריך. What's the need over here בכלל? So you see the word like this: kol zman it doesn't have a shem leidah, you have to say she's not a nidah. That's what you have to say. It's mamash, that's mamash my raya. Okay, here. Again, you hear what I want? What's the safek over here? Maybe what? Maybe it's not a leidah. Mikzas shilya might not have the shiur of leidah. Who cares? What kind of a shiur leidah do you need already? Psichas kever bloi dam, right? No?

Tell me, is there a safek if the vlad is a bar kayama? Afilu nefel. So let's speak ... kashya. What does ... want? ... wants. It's all one safek. The safek is that there's no leida, there's no baby here. What's the safek? One second. Bring me the Tosafos Chavav amud beis. Let's look it up. Yeah, Chavav amud beis. No, Bava Kama is a different Tosafos. No, there's 11 pages here. We have to move. What are we doing? You know what we're going to do? I'll tell you what we're going to do. Listen to what we're going to do. Let's move on a little quicker, okay? Because I have 11 pages. I want to finish this, all right? Maybe not. Now listen carefully. In Halacha Yud-Daled, Halacha Yud-Daled: Yotzei dofen, im lo yatza dam ela derech dofen, imo. Tahorah mileidah, minidah umizivah. But maistes, psichas hakever, so I don't see how it can be בלי דם. Right, so where did they take it out? They didn't take it out of the stomach? They didn't take it out of the womb? It's psichas hadeles, so that's what you said, psichas hadeles. You're sure about that? Huh? You're positive? Who says this? Aha. So in other words, in case they do a biopsy and they don't do it through the— So wait a minute, I know, but I'm trying to get something. Lo yatzu yir, they don't go through the front. Right, they're drilling in the stomach and they're puncturing the kever. There's not going to be any dam. Ein psichas kever bli dam. Ideh pashtei not like that. It's not leidah. You see, but that's my point. You're cheating on me. I'm asking you a question: yotza dofen, lo yatza dam ela derech dofen, tahorah. Im lo yatza dam—he's telling you. So I'm asking you, what happens if the baby is born? So the kever opened? Yes. So how could it be, if there's a halacha of ein psichas hakever bli dam, so how— The answer is, because this psichas hakever, there's klal it's not shayach without dam, but on top yesh psichas hakever bli dam. Oh, the type of psichas hakever could be with dam. So how come they all come and they aser in case you come and make a—what should we call it? Maybe there's dam that comes out, I don't know, because he's saying lo yatza dam. No, I don't—no, because you can learn the Shulchan Aruch differently. You can learn actually lo yatza dam, you didn't see it. Okay. L'chaira. I have to say this chiddush, which I said a long time ago, that if you come from the matah, and a chinami, ein psichas hakever bloi dam. Mashain kein, if you come from the side, there'll be dam, but it's not going to come down derech nidus. It's not going to come down, okay. What's the lashon, im lo yatza dam? Yatza doifen, im lo yatza—where? Lo yatza dam where? One second. Lo yatza dam, im lo yatza dam. So it's mashma that it could have been yatza dam. So how do you know there wasn't? Say a pashut kash. I hold this kash is it, that kushya. Is there a rule that whenever it opens, there's got to be blood? Yes, whenever it opens. Okay. So l'maaseh, here you see that it opened, but it didn't make blood. Teretz is, it depends where it opens. If it opens from the bottom, then there's a klal of ein bloi dam. Mashain, if it's on top, it's not—the klal doesn't apply. Could there be blood? Where? Could it come down the normal way? It could. So when you—

Rebbi said that there's no dam. Lo im lo yatza dam ela, only derech dofen. How do you know there was ella? Every time she'ein psichas hakever blo dam, we always say it could be even a drop and you don't know where it is. Once there's psichas hakever. Right. Now over here there's psichas hakever. It could be that that's gorem dam. You see, didn't he say could be? You see, he's cheating. He cheats. He's a cheater. Don't you understand my problem with him? I followed him step by step to show you. You yourself said it could be. You yourself said it could be. You yourself said it could be. If you don't have psicha, you don't have reason to be choshesh maybe there's dam. Maybe there's a dam right now. We're not choshesh until we have something, a re'us. Does psichas hakever cause dam? Okay, now I want to ask you a better question. You're gonna tell me that when there's a cesarean section, the woman doesn't see dam derech regular? There is. The metzius is that there is. Okay, so then that's not this case. But that's the case. He didn't say that every single time there's no dam. He said if it happens to be that there is. I don't know what the percentages are. So I'm asking you, let's say that there are cases that it could cause dam. Yes, he wasn't talking about that. Again, so why should you be choshesh that there was a tipas dam and it got lost? Only choshesh when there is a psichas hakever. Here there is definitely a psichas hakever. He's asking, since it's possible. Not always. This is possible, possible. What do you mean always? They were taking it out from a different location. There wasn't a hechrech there was a psichas hakever. I want you to take a look at every sefer on this table that says there's no such thing happening without having blood. And if I put a moch down up there and nothing came out, let's say I had a moch the entire time. I did an unbelievable bedikah. The entire laydan I didn't drop anything. Yeah, but the case is not that. The case is בלי. Oh, so you're saying chiddush, okay, so you're saying a gevaldige chiddush. The case is, אם לא יצא, medically they went and they took care. Okay, so right on the side, Shulchan Aruch, Hamaskim. If you could come and say, אם לא יצא, then it means is that they had to medically check. But, אין הכי נמי, אין הכי נמי. And you know what I want to be mechadesh? Maybe shemakeh bedikah takah. How do you know that לא יצא dam? How do you know? I want to know what the hechrech is that it's לא יצא dam. What? I'm saying, how do you know it's לא יצא dam? How do you know? I have another shaylah. Why can't you say every psichas hakever from derech dofen, and there is dam, it's dam makah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why can't that be dam makah? I don't say, I drilled a hole into someone's womb, right? So how do you expect there not to be dam makah? I want to tell you a gevaldige chiddush, you hear? A gevaldige chiddush. Rav Karelitz, paskens a chiddush nifla, and that's—when I saw it, I saw that he thinks in the same terms. Let's say there's a tumas leidah, okay? A day later, I'm saying, and there's a Caesarean section, okay? So therefore there's no tumas leidah. A day later, there's dam. Within, let's say, five hours, six hours later. Does that mean? By the Syrian section, it's yatza dam, but it was later. So he says, a me'idichesh dam makah; it's not dam leida. Oh, I'm telling you a me'udik vort. There's something called leida, and there's something called dam machmas ptzi'ah shel chevrav leida. The moment it's not b'shaas leida, that's not called dam machmas ptzi'ah shel leida. But she wasn't a yoledes. She's not a yoledes. Who's not a yoledes? This lady's not a yoledes. Even if blood came out from the bottom, she's not a yoledes. How do you know? The baby didn't come out from there. Ad sheyoledes, derech—wherever the Gemara says over there, מוקר זרע. She's not anyway not a yoledes. Even if she bleeds, like, it doesn't matter. She'll be a zavah, nidah, whatever you want to throw, but not a yoledes. So you should say also, dam makah, of course they cut her, what else is going to be? But I'm saying, dam yoledes isn't called dam makah; it's called dam nidah. Hachi ka'amar, called dam makah. You're right, you're right in Hilchos lomdus, she's not.

But in Hilchos dam, l'gabi the dam, what is that dam? Is that dam leida? Maybe as Dr. ... said. Okay, so what do we do with this? How do we finish this? Something. Huh? Yeah, ... again. It was very clear. What did you say? So we should continue? You want to continue again? Yes. Okay, yes, so when we come back it's Kuf Tzadik Daled? Okay, the oilam's happy with that? Yes. I have my sheet prepared. Eleven pages. Tell me, you hear what I'm doing? You hear what I'm trying? I'm trying to chisel out: is it the dam, is it the leida? Okay, yeah, good. Now tell me, what's with Sunday? You're coming? The oilam's gonna show up for the Chumash? You are coming? ... coming. The oilam's gonna come? The oilam's gonna show up for it, yeah? Yeah. What about you? You'll come for Sunday? Now, can we, after Mincha, work out matzah baking? I want to go for the matzah baking. I took the number. ... matzah baking, huh? Oh, really? It's not. It's right here, ... We'll call, right after Mincha we'll call and see if we can put together ... matzah, okay? It's in here, the number. Yeah? Yeah, they open up a matzah bakery. ... No, by the matzah. No, but they advertise it.

Chief Rabbi Franz is Rabbi. Related to you? No. Very, very special person. Matzliach. Ish matzliach. Okay, come. Ephraim left, Ephraim. So, the place that costs you to buy, if they sell it three times, four times the amount that it was a year, so if they're selling you 500, that means they're making a hundred fifty. So if they're selling you 500, means they're making 150. From you, they're going to want 250. So you're making 120 a year.

Sholem aleichem. Sholem vus machst? How are you, my tired boy? Is it still recording you? Yeah, they're still recording. They recorded Mincha. Okay. Should I stop it?