Hilchos Harchakos: Eating Together During Niddah—Chibah, Hergel, and Shared Dishes

Transcript

Lo yochal imo. Lo yochal imo. Now I want to be medayek a very important diyuk, and then we'll go into the reasons for this halacha, and that might explain the diyuk, and then we'll go into the nafkaminas lahalacha. Some of it you'll find in your sefarim, your cheating books. Some of it you won't, and a lot of it you'll see that I say the exact opposite of what it says over there, probably. So pay attention to where I start from, and you'll see maybe they're starting from somewhere else, I'm starting from a different nekudah, and let's see if we can learn up the halacha that way. Lo yochal imo al hashulchan. Not eat with her, with her. Now it doesn't say lo yochlu b'yachad, that they can't eat together. It doesn't say that they can't eat together, but it says lo yochal imo, he should eat with her, al hashulchan, on the table. What would be the difference if it says lo yochal imo or lo yochlu b'yachad? Chayres, technically sounds the same. I think there might be a difference, and later on we'll see that knowing the sugya well, there is a very big difference. Yachad would imply together, that it's an act that they do together, and the togetherness is a problem. The fact that they're doing something... Which I guess we could say is enjoyable, you know, and you want to have a romantic—what do you do? You have a romantic dinner, right? So obviously dinner, right, food has some shaychus to romance, obviously, right? As a matter of fact, there's a famous expression in English, in Anglit: The way to a man's heart is through his stomach. So obviously they're talking about dinner and eating. There's got to be something that's food that has shaychus to that. So is the problem that that act of dining together is the problem? Or is the problem that he's eating together with her, but it's not the yachad, it's not the two of them together, it's not about—it's, before I get to the word chibah, is the lo yochal, lo yochlu b'yachad, they're not allowed to dine out together? Or is it lo yochal imah, that he's not allowed to eat with her? We'll soon see that there's two ta'amim in the Rishonim why this halacha applies, either because of chibah or because of hergel. The word chibah implies to me that it's something about yachad. There's a chibah when you dine out together. Many Rishonim, the Ra'avad, many, many Rishonim hold like this. Other Rishonim learn that it has to do with hergel. Since it's normal for them to eat together, bimei taharasa, so if life goes on as norm, so you never know, they'll live like they're norm together. So you have to have some kind of, it's not yemei tohar, it's yemei tumah. So we make shinuyim. This is a machlokes Rishonim. Then I understand the word lo yochal imah. If it's about chibah, then it replies better, the word lo yochlu beyachad. If it's about doing normal activities with your wife, then it's lo yochal imah, because that's normal. It's not about eating together; it's doing what you normally do. So don't eat with her together. It's not so much the yachad. You like my diuk, you don't like my diuk, I really don't care. It's irrelevant. The point is, let's see that sugya. Is it about chibah? Is it about hergel? A very strong diuk would be, you look at the poskim, they talk about one plate, kearah achas. Now the truth is the Shulchan Aruch talks about kearah achas in his continuing statement, El im ken yesh shum shinui, and by the shinui he talks about different kearos. Yesh shum davar mafsik bein kearah shelo l'kearah shelo. There's two different kearos, yeah? So obviously that they're eating in two different plates. So there is mention of different plates, right? But he doesn't mention it in the halacha of that you're not allowed to do that, that you're not eating.

Same plate. In the mention of the shinui, he says the shinui between the two kayros. But l'maaseh, he doesn't say, Lo yoichlu b'kaira echad. He says, Lo yoichal ima al hashulchan. You look at the poskim, the Shach speaks about it, that it's a kol shekein. If you're not allowed to eat on the same table, it's a kol shekein you're not allowed to eat from the same plate. So why does it say that? I mean, say you're not allowed to eat from the same plate, and you're not allowed to eat from the same table. Why taka does it — I mean, the Shulchan Aruch is saving words. It's a kal vachomer, it's a kol shekein, so what do you have to say it? Lo yoichal ima al hashulchan, lo yoichlu b'kaira achas. I mean, why not? Why save the ink? What's the point in the Shulchan Aruch of not explaining that there's an issur to eat from the same kaira? How is it a kal vachomer if you have heker on the same shulchan? How is it a kal vachomer? Al hashulchan is mutar. You say because b'kaira achas, al hashulchan is not mutar b'kaira achas. Is that your kasha? You're saying it's kal vachomer. If you eat on the same table without a heker — That's what I'm trying to say. If you don't have that heker, if you put al hashulchan, it's aser. It's a kal vachomer, you're not allowed to eat from the same plate. That's what the Shach — you saw the Shach, you can dalt, you saw it. You didn't see the Shach? Okay. So the shaila is, why does the Shulchan Aruch not say it? Why does the Shulchan Aruch not say it? So we could come and say, maybe the Shulchan Aruch didn't think that was even normal. Shulchan Aruch might have not even had such a scenario that people eat from the same plate. I'm saying he didn't think of even bringing the case, but then hachanami, it's a kol shekein. It's not a halachah, it's a kol shekein. It's self-understood. I don't think that's the pshat. Let's say the chisaron is chibah. Let's say the chisaron is chibah. Would heker help if the chisaron lo yochal ima is about heker—I'm sorry, is about hergel? Or let's say chibah. Let's say chibah. Would heker help? So bishlama if it's about hergel, so you can come and say any change in the norm will tell you, by the way, it's not normal, because hergel means normal and shinui means the opposite of normal. But if it's for chibah purposes, maybe heker won't work. I want you to know that this is not my chiddush. The Seder Taharah says like this, because in the Shulchan Aruch it says that shinui helps. Comes along the Seder Taharah and he says, if it's mishum chibah, why would it help? Says the Seder Taharah, it's muchach that the Shulchan Aruch held that it's mishum hergel, and therefore shinui helps. Those that like Badei HaShulchan, he brings it down in his biurim. It's the Seder Taharah, okay? Now, so then we have an interesting chiddush that mishum hergel, right, it won't help. It would help shinui, but mishum chibah it won't help. Pischei Teshuvah in se'if katan hei brings down an interesting chiddush. What happens if it's bishulchan echad, no shinui, but there are other people sitting and eating with you? There are other people on the table. That's the heker. There are other people at the table. So he brings down that it doesn't help. And the Masas Binyamin is cholek and says that what? That it would help. Let's take a look at the Pischei Teshuvah. Everybody look at it inside. Go ahead, read. Read rapidly, go ahead. You know, I can't hear you. I don't know why. Maybe say it again. What? Oh, even with Bnei haBayit. Okay, so now, shulchan echad with acherim. What? Truma, right? Shulchan echad with acherim according to the second shittah? Machmir. What? Machmir. Huh? Chayrachas. Okay. He didn't say shulchan echad, but l'cho...

From the reading, it's... I hear. Machmir on the din. So let's just say like this: Acheirim, why does Acheirim work? Why does Acheirim work? What are you talking—why does Acheirim work? What are you going to do? What happens if it's normal? This is a shaila I always have. What happens if it's normal to have many people at the table all the time? If the taam is hergel, if the taam is hergel, so what happens if it's murgel that way, it's normal that way? If the taam is chibah, then it's fine, because the chibah is not going to be here. I just— you know what, listen to me. I know that there's more to say. I'm starting you off. It's a piskei teshuvah. It's a famous piskei teshuvah. It's a famous shailah l'halachah. Does this halachah apply to other people by the table? I'm not sure what he even means, a piskei teshuvah. It's not even clear. Is he machmir, the shitas hamachmirim is even by Shulchan Echad not kaira achas? It's not clear. It's not very clear in his words, right? The Masas Binyamin—what's the Masas Binyamin? Oh, so it's not... Which din, din eino... I'm talking about by Shulchan Echad and Bnei Bayis. I understand, so I'm asking, but he himself does talk about that. I understand, so... Here, at the end of the din, the red is dafka al shulchan echad. Yesh makom l'hatir. Which means those that are not matir, those that are arguing are even arguing on one table. So that's what I'm trying to— that's all I'm saying. The words is not clear because the Masas Binyamin is talking about one thing, and the Pischei Teshuva borrows it that it's the same din of what? Of shulchan echad. Let me tell you something. You'll soon see that what I'm doing is a brilliant patchwork, because I'm going to try to put the two halachos together, say this is actually one halacha. Kaira and shulchan is actually one halacha. But before we get there, the Pischei Teshuva, everybody quotes it. Know that the Pischei Teshuva is not clear. The Pischei Teshuva is not clear. When he's matir it, he's clear what he's being matir, but it's not clear the issurim, what they're asering. Are they asering kaira echad, or are they asering shulchan echad also? That's one, okay? Second of all, it's not clear why is he matir with acher. What does he call it, a— no? A heker. He calls it a heker. Does he mean mimeila there's no chibur? Does he mean mimeila there's no problem of, it's like a shinui? L'choira he means like shinui of the Shulchan Aruch, right? L'choira, right? So I want to ta'ina that that's the machlokes. The Masas Binyamin learns that the whole yesod of the sugya is, it's about he'argel, not by ta'aroves. The kaira achas might be that it's because of chibah, while the Pischei Teshuva is saying they're both about haircuts. Just like shinui works for the din of the Shulchan Aruch of shulchan, so I could borrow from the Masas Binyamin's case of kaira the same svara. Okay, I'm going to repeat it again because I see that you're not 100% of what I said. I didn't say that. Okay, so let me start again. Let me say it again. What I'm saying is as follows. I'm saying a pashut. The Sidrei Taharah is clear that if shinui works, it's only because of heker. That means that the Shulchan Aruch paskens heker. Fine, good. I'm not going to argue with the Sidrei Taharah. Okay. What I do is all of a sudden something goes into my mind and says, wait a minute, let's see this Pischei Teshuva, Masas Binyamin. Well, what is that about? And don't think it's not—it's a klal. It means everybody quotes it, because otherwise when there's people by the table, what happens? It's a very big shailah l'halachah. So if you make a hekerim which are not noticeable, fine. But if, let's say, the heker is not there, should you go out of your way to make the heker? Maaseh, the minhag olam is to be meikel like this Pischei Teshuva, yeah? If there are people by the table, there's no problem. One table and one... Awesome. Wait a minute.

So that's what I'm trying to bring out. The piskei teshuva is clear that he's matir where? He's matir by a shulchan. That's clear in the piskei teshuva. What's not clear is the Masas Binyamin that says no, the machmirim. Was he talking about kaira or shulchan? It's not clear. You're right, from the fact that the Piskei Teshuva quotes the Masas Binyamin of kaira as the opposite of what he says, that shulchan echad is mutar, l'choira the implication is so. So I'm trying to explain to you like this: what did he hold? So either the Masas Binyamin held that is not a heker, which I don't know why not. So then I can say, you know something? What happens if there's always people by the table? Maybe he held it wasn't a heker. Maybe the Masas Binyamin held this is not called a heker. Just because there's people by the table, that means it looks different? They always have people by the table, maybe. Oy dilma, the Masas Binyamin is talking about a kaira. Kaira, the reason is chibah. If the reason is chibah, he could takke... I, the Piskei Teshuva, the Piskei Teshuva was learning that shulchan and kaira is all the same thing. So just like shinui works by heter of shulchan, it would work by kaira because it's all called heter. Yesh what? Yesh leser by kaira. Aval b'kar achas, midina yesh leser... he doesn't want people... mitam acher, mitam shiur machlokes. Mitam shiur machlokes for different reason. What if it's kara achas, no shiur maichel? He says shiur maichel. You misunderstood Biski Teshuva. If it's not shiur maichel, it's mutar, and that's what I'm going to ta'ina. I hold that it's mutar. I'm going to prove this to you. According to the way I'm learning, it might be mutar. Popcorn would be mutar. We'll talk about popcorn, but don't talk about your movies yet. Not yet, not yet. Your popcorn later. First let's get to din. Let me tell you something. You know, everybody wants me to come in here and tell you nice halachos about when you're allowed to eat together with your wife and dining with her. Can we learn the Shulchan Aruch a little bit? I can't. I can't. I can't pasken for you l'maaseh the gzech. We don't know klal the sugya. The sugya is that there's a halacha you're not allowed to eat with your wife. What does that mean? It's very important to define it. Does it mean that the act of eating together with the woman is asur, or the act of eating together? Is it the together? Is it the yachad, the fact that they're together doing something, or the pshat is that they're doing what they normally do? It doesn't do it together. It's not the together; it's because they normally eat together. You'll soon see in this shiur I'm going to come, what if they don't normally eat together? I would hold it's mutar. According to that ta'am, it's mutar. Let's say they don't normally, they never eat together. Punkt, they eat together. And don't argue with me yet, because I'll argue with it later for other reasons. But first get the yesod of the sugya. Is it about eating together, or is it about eating the way they always eat? So, and I guess in the olden days they used to eat together, lo yochlu ima. The normal was they sat to supper together. Families ate supper together. Okay, so first of all I'm showing you an interesting thing, that there's a machlokes Rishonim for the reason. Is it chibah or is it hergel? If it's hergel, it means it's like normal. If it's chibah, it means because there's chibah involved in eating together. Even al shulchan echad. It's called dining out, okay? Dining. They're not allowed to dine. If you had to write the Shulchan Aruch, you know what I would say? Lo yeichal ima is either you're not allowed to eat supper together with your wife, or lo yeichal ima, you're not allowed to dine with her, okay? Romantically dine with her. It's a whole different sugya. You understand that it's an entirely different sugya if it's hergel or it's chibah? Now, if it's hergel, so then shinui works. Who says it's not me? That's a sidrei ta'am. Sidrei ta'am in Shulchan Aruch, that he paskens the ta'am of shinui, of hergel, because you see shinui works, and I'm showing you. So what do you do with this machmas Binyamin? What is that all about? It's a very interesting yesod. On one hand, acherim. Acherim helps. Now why does acherim help? He used the word heker. Not sure what that means. Does he mean shinui, heker? Okay, maybe. So what's the machlokes then? So either he's saying that just like by shulchan it works, by kirah it should also technically work, but for a different reason.

Doesn't work, because you have a promise shiur in Michael. It's not a din in the together; it's a din in the shiurei Michael shelo. It's something else. While the maaseh binyanim is learning, kaira is one reason, shulchanes might be a different reason. Or it could be held that acheirim oichlin b'shulchan is not called a heker. I'm just giving you the different choices I have on how to learn it up. Either he argues, nu rabosai, either he argues and he says that it's not because of hergel, it's because of chibah. Either he learns that the problem is that this is not called a shinui. What does the maaseh binyanim hold? It could be the maaseh binyanim only spoke about a kaira; he never spoke about a shulchan. Never spoke about the shulchan. The shulchan is taka about hergel, and the kaira is about chibah. Give me some fresh air. Oy dilma, this I want to taina shtark, maybe the whole sugya tairi doesn't hold of. Could be he held that altz chibah, and shinui would work for chibah also, because there's no chibah when there's a shinui. There's people by the table and it's not the normal matzav, so that itself causes that it shouldn't be chibah. Tell me, a romantic dinner is when there's twenty people by the table? No. So it could be the shinui itself makes it. The shinui itself makes it that it's not chibah. And there's a machlokes on the whole yesod. Of the... Okay, so, rabosai, repeat after me, because I want to make sure you understand this, and then we can start maneuvering halacha l'maaseh from all of this. Okay, so let's start again. Klal, all right? A: Is it about chibah, dining together, or is it about doing the normal activities of hergel? Okay. The word chibah is irrelevant here. Take out chibah according to the second tzad. Machlokes Rishonim. And I'd rather just said that it could be the lo yochal imah, lo yochal b'yachad might maybe have something to do with it, yeah or no. Okay. L'maaseh, shinui, according to the Seder Taharah, only works when we pasken that it has to do with hergel and not chibah. Why? Because chibah is not going to change because of a shinui. She'ein kein hergel, shinui makes it not hergel. Okay. Then I tell you, look at the Pischei Teshuvah. Pischei Teshuvah is a major chiddush. If there's other people by the table, okay, so let's discuss other people by the table. So either we can come and say that they're arguing in a yesod. What is the reason for the halacha of kairah? If the halacha of kairah is about hergel, like Shulchan Aruch, so just like shinui works here, shinui works here. While the Masas Binyamin held that kairah is different, and kairah is taka not the same din as Shulchan Aruch. O dilma, maybe he holds it's all taka hergel. Why doesn't it work with acherim, others? Because he held that's not called what? Benji, it's not called a heker. Maybe it isn't a heker. And I'm asking, halacha l'maaseh, could you use this p'sach chuv when you always have people by the table? Well, it depends. If the pshat is it takes away the chibah because there's other people, so even if you have other people always by the table, it won't make a difference. But if it's al tznius, maybe takkeh, maybe there's a problem. If you always have people by the table, so it's no different. If you always have guests, you, aniyim b'nei beisecha, so it's not different. It's not different. Or the pshat is that he held that there's no chiluk. It's all about chibah. It's all about chibah. Yet he held that shinui works by chibah. Maybe shinui does work by—maybe he doesn't hold of the ... What? Would it be a different shinui? Um, maybe. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe, maybe, or maybe not. I don't know. I'm just saying. Maybe the shinui of other people by the table ruins the romance, mashenkein putting a cup there is not going to ruin the romance. Or maybe even so, maybe if you show lehedya that I can't be with you, so that right away ruins the tone of the whole supper, of the whole dinner. Maybe if lichatchilah you put down a heker that you ... together, that ruins the—

It's what we call it the tone, the tone of the... Okay. Now, let's move on. Lo yochal. Keva, aroyi, does it make a difference? It says don't eat with her. Lo yochal imo al ha-shulchan. So, I ask you a different question. Lo yochal, what about yishteh? It says don't eat. Maybe achilah is bichlal shtiyah. Okay. So if you take a look at the Badei HaShulchan, he says, Yeah, aroyi, just like keva, and drinking is bichlal shtiyah. I'll tell you a little secret. His mareh mekomos are very poor, very, very weak. Huh? His mareh mekomos are very poor. He brings down a sefer HaManhig for the aroyi and keva, and when it comes to the shtiyah, mashma'os ha-poskim. I learned a big yesod. When a guy tells me mashma'os ha-poskim— no, no. Gedolim said. You ever notice today when they want to... I spoke to the gedolim and they told me. They don't give you the names and the address. The gedolim said. Everybody walks around, He spoke to the gedolim. Again, I just do this for entertainment purposes. I'm not arguing or knocking the Badei HaShulchan, believe me. Okay, sha, we heard four times, four times he said the same thing. Obviously I didn't want to pay attention to it. I heard four times the same thing. He says, Okay, he said. Okay, I don't care what he said. What does that do to me? I said it to you. You said. You should be saying it. Lo yochal means... Is it achilah and shtiyah, or achilah and not shtiyah? Is it keva and not arai? Okay. What about water? What about water? You know, there's different types of shtiyah. Have you drink, and then there's just drinking. Maybe water is not included. Okay. I have a question for you. Why would they be sitting together at the table to drink? Why would they be sitting at a table to snack? Now this no sefer talks about, because this is, you have to think. Today, people snack, they don't sit by a table. When they take a drink, no one's going to sit down by the table to take a drink, unless they're tired. I understand that part, I understand. But b'derech klal, you drink standing. You snack. Huh? You make what? Orange juice, you sit down? Who sits down for orange? Everybody's supposed to know. Okay, so that's what I'm talking about. Let me talk. Let me come from late to talk. You hear? Do you know what I'm doing now? I'm pushing. I'm pushing the envelope. I'm making you think a minute. Is it possible that in the olden days they had ethics and morals and, what do they call it, etiquette, and whenever they ate, they ate sitting by a table, and they believed what their mother said, that if you eat standing or drink standing, your feet will get fat? Maybe. Today. Today, people don't do this. So maybe the fact that you are sitting down by the table with him, maybe it's different. Maybe you're trying to sit with him. You're keeping him company while he eats. How about that? I have a better question for you. What happens if he's eating breakfast and she's drinking? You made it sound like achilas arai, they're both doing the same thing. But what happens if one is eating keva and the other one's arai? What happens if one's eating and the other one's drinking? It's two different seudos, like, no? You're eating a chavis fleishigs and I'm sitting eating a bowl of cereal. Is there a problem? I have another question for you. When it says al ha-shulchan, what happens if she holds the food? She's not sitting at the table, she's holding the food. Does that Chinuch book talk about it? He talks about sandwiches, that's it, I'm leaving, I'm going to late. You don't need me then. He talks about sandwiches, then he's very clear. Let me see that. It's ten pages. Maybe he has many sandwiches, different types of sandwiches. Tell me, do these questions come up in your thought process?

Huh? These are good questions, no? You know what's good about these questions? It makes you think, what is the yesod of halacha? And once you understand the yesod of halacha, then we can maneuver to explain, yes, no, possibly. Let's understand the din. So I want you to write down these questions, the following questions. Is it hu hadin achilas arai? How come nobody's writing? Is it hu hadin shtiya? Does it make a difference? What type of shtiya? The shtiya is keva, shtiyas arai maybe, I don't know, a real drink, some water. Here you have tarti l'reiusa. It's shtiya and it's arai. What about that? Shtiya and arai, a drink of water. They both sat down to drink some water. Okay. How about they're sitting together, you hear, al ha-shulchan. I guess you need a shulchan, otherwise it's like haseibah. You can't have seudah without a shulchan. I guess this din can't be without a shulchan. What happens if they're sitting on the same park bench and they're eating together on the same bench? So l'choira you could say b'shulchan. So then we'll say, you know what? Let's say you do need a shulchan. Let's say it's like haseibah, without a shulchan there's no haseibah. Okay, I'll give it, I'll grant, it says al ha-shulchan. What happens if it's not mamash on the table, she's holding it? So the shulchan just makes like a visual that they're eating together, but they're not mamash eating together. What happens if they're eating different foods? What happens if one is eating, if one is eating a keva and the other one's eating arai? What happens if one's eating and the other one's drinking? See, they stopped writing. After question number four, everybody stopped writing. These are all what-ifs. Come on, nu. Nu! Okay. Let's discuss the yesod of the halacha, and then let's see who can answer all these what-ifs. I hold, shtiyas haro'eh, no problem. You sit down, you drink, I don't have a problem. I don't even have a problem if they're both sitting down and drinking aroy. And you want to know something? I'm not going to argue with the sefer hamanhig about achilas keva and aroy, because I'm afraid to argue with Rishonim, that he quoted where he found some Rishon, sefer hamanhig, I don't know, doesn't bother. But mashma'os haposkim, I'll argue with mashma'os haposkim. I don't care. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. Someone asks me halacha l'maaseh, it's mutar. The Shulchan says mashma'os, I'm also posek. I decided I'm not posek. What's wrong with that? What? I know Rav... and Rabbeinu Tzvi... I know, everybody's... Yeah, what? No. What's called shtiyas haro'eh? If you eat cookie with drink, that's a very good question. That's what we're speaking about. What happens? I don't know. But you have the achilah, forget about that, but l'maaseh you have the achilah. Forget about the shtiyah. What's called the shtiyas haro'eh? I don't know. Maybe water, a drink, I don't know, have to see. I'll talk about it. But I can just tell you shtiyas haro'eh is mutar. I don't see why. My posek might heard differently. I listened carefully, and it was mashma for me differently. It's good enough for me. Okay. Why am I doing this? I want to learn the sugya through. What would be if they always eat together? They always eat together, yeah? But it's not a maichel chashuv, it's not a keva, it's an arai. But they always do this. They always sit down and have four o'clock a snack. So if you want to go with the letter of the law of hergel, you got a problem, right? But then you say, you know something? Is all hergel aser? Anything that they usually do together becomes aser because there's a hergel? If let's say they go to the bus together in the morning, or they come home together at work at night, you're gonna say it's aser? Hergel? Teretz is. Is it aser? No, right? What's the teretz? The teretz is, hasam da'ata achila, right? In other words, with hergel you gotta stick in something about achila, okay? So what in achila, together with hergel? And the answer is there's something...

I guess chashuv about it. Not chiba. I don't want to use the word chiba, because chiba has nothing to do with hergel. There's something, I guess, family, husband and wife, chibur about supper together, right? Snacking together is also that? You know, I was thinking that in, what do you call it, in England where they have tea time. They drink tea and everybody sits down by the table to drink tea. Either that would be called kevach, because that's how it is, or even such a shtiyas arai would be a problem, according to the Taz of chibah. It's family, husband and wife, tea time. Huh? Tea time. They have it. You guys don't know about it. It's called tea time. Oh, tea party they call it? Tea time. It's called tea time. That's what it's called. In the afternoon, everybody sits down. Harei ni muchan umezuman l'kayem mitzvas the queen to drink tea time, okay? According to the Taz of chiba, you know what I could come and say? Well, there's no chiba really. Chiba? Drinking tea. What are you drinking? Not chiba. Chiba doesn't drink tea time. What? Maybe yeah, you ta'ina. What happens the opposite? They normally don't eat together, and this is what I mentioned to you before. What happens if they normally don't eat together? So the hergel is not that they eat together, but maybe chibah, fakert, makes it even worse. If the taam is what, hergel, this is not normal. They normally don't eat together, and poof, now they're eating together. But if the taam is chibah, fakert, makes it even worse, right? They never eat together, now they're dining out together. It's interesting because it's the, how do I say, it's the way of the, the, how do you give me a good word in English for moda? It's the style of the times. People don't eat together supper. I mean, when you get married maybe, but later on we eat supper together. But once in a while, you'll sit down together. That's something. It's not hergel. It's definitely not the hergel. But if you look at chibah, you have a reason. Chibah is a problem. Okay. Shabbos, you eat together. I'm not talking Shabbos, talking weekdays. So we have hergel Shabbos. Shabbos is Shabbos, hevel. It has nothing to do with the ... Oh, that's what I want to ... That's exactly what I'm getting at. According to this, right, so what happens if you go out special to drink a soda or eat an ice cream together? Date is not your wife. There's no problem yet. But after you go out. So I hold it's תלוי in this shaila. If you learn that the יסוד of the sugya is hergel, so what are you going to come and say, well, there's a problem of hergel here? Wait a minute. But if you're going to come and say that it's chibah, avada it's chibah, unless you say an interesting chiddush, that if it's b'mechuven that they sit together. She's bedavka sitting together to eat with him, then it's asur. Memeila, memeila, memeila, I'm saying a very big chiddush. If let's say she takes a drink, and normally she'd be standing, and then she goes to sit down with you while you're eating to drink, so you see it's the company and not the drink. If it's the pshat that that happens to be the shulchan and that's where they eat, so I want to tie in a chiddush. Today's times, if she would sit down even for a shtiyah kalah while you're eating, then it'd be asur. That's a very nice svara. What happens if she stops and sits down? I just explained to you, we didn't asser all the— Chazal didn't asser just having company with your wife. Chazal said that there's got to be some act of chibur. I'm eating, but you're— Once a month, once a month you sit by the table to talk about life. No drink. I don't know. Chazal didn't asser it, I don't know. Chazal didn't asser it, I don't know. So I just explained to you, there's got to be more about food. That's what it says.

I don't know, it's romantic. You see, when people want to have the shaykhus that they have first to supper, I mean, there's got to be some shaykhus to food. You see, the Chacham didn't asser all hergeilim that you have with your wife. Okay, can we, like, chazer what we just learned? Because there's a lot of things that we just said. Are you maskim with this? Are you going to pasken this way, or are you going to argue with everything I say? I don't, just because... That's what they're all asking you, but it has something to do with eating. I can't run away from what Chazal said, that stam sitting and keeping your wife company is mutar. You want me to asser that? Is that the next step, like I should go against the words of the Chazal? Chazal said that's not a problem. On days women were always home, and the only time they would come together is by eating. But today women work and the husbands work, and sometimes they go out together, they come together, so even not by eating should be asser. Even on days women... Chazal don't say it. You want to asser? Go ahead. You want to not do that? Don't do it. I'm not going to stop you. Because the metzius was different then. Yeah, but you're missing my point. I can't use the metzius to asser things. It has nothing to do with food. It has to do with sitting together. How do you know? What do you know happens? I don't know. So you want to know something? Not only I don't know, but that's what I'm trying to bring out. I'm trying to understand where is the problem. Is it about the act of eating together? It's the company together? I want to learn this. I hope that once we get down to the bottom of it, we'll be able to understand the sugya and see the chilukim: what's yeah, what's not, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. This is all part of the shayla. Where is the problem? Is the problem the eating? Is it mealtime together, or is it the company together through the Shulchan? I'm going to tell you a big chiddush. I'm going to tell you a mighty chiddush. Okay. Let's just recap what we learned till now. We declared many cases where it's not exactly sitting by the table for a real meal. It's drink, and it's subtle, it's going out, it's normal, it's not normal. What happens in all these cases? I don't know. If you learn that it's hergel, so you have to follow the hergel. What's hergel, what's not hergel? If you learn chibah, then I guess you follow chibah. Or what you do is what we spoke originally, that whatever Chazal said, fine, and whatever they didn't say is mutar. Maybe you use that rule. I don't know. You know, you could use a rule if it says in Shulchan Aruch, fine, and if not, so... aydes chibah, so what? Aydes hergel, so what? Aydes no hergel, so what? I don't know. You know, we could sit here and say, whatever, the hergel is not that way. So then I just threw out the whole halacha, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Imagine halacha l'maaseh, if normally you come and tell me the reason is hergel, by me it's not the hergel. You want to know something? By me it's really not the hergel. You guys don't understand what I mean when I say it's not. I cannot know what it means that my wife needs supper, what it looks like. I don't even know what it looks... I never saw it. I never saw it. I don't know what it is. I wouldn't know what it looked like. I wouldn't know what... What it looks like when she eats up, I have no idea. I never saw it. She's working. I never... the story never happened. So let's say one day she sits down and she starts eating. There's no heker, I trust me. This is not normal by me. I would have to start wondering what's wrong. That's the biggest heker. Huh? I don't know. If the whole reason is heker, there's no heker. So I don't know. So what, the halacha becomes mutar maybe? I don't know. I don't ask a big posek. Okay. With this, I want to clarify if you go from meal to restaurant. Are you allowed to go out with your wife, restaurante, okay, when she's in need? Are you allowed to do it? So first of all, there's a lot of people around. I don't know if they're sitting at your table, but what is heker? Is heker the pshat that there's a difference in the table, or is heker the pshat that there's people around and there's no chibur when there's people around? Remember, we weren't sure what heker is. Maybe you're sitting in a restaurant.

Packed with people. Mechtais. What? For what? Again, privacy. You see, you just added something. I never said one word about privacy yet. You go to a restaurant, the sitting down is for. But we said that's for. I'm working with you. Let's work. Let's see how to pasken the shaila, halacha l'maaseh. Should you or should you not go to a restaurant when she's a niddah? We could come and say, pischi teshuva, people around. So mamash, you have to sit at your table to be around. First, the waiter comes over. You know, the waiter keeps on coming over, and then he wants to nudge you. Would you like another? Get away from me. You're bothering me. Go away. I want to talk to my wife, right? The waiter keeps on coming over. Maybe that itself is an onesh. Not sitting at your table, but he's there. What's the heter of the pischi teshuva? What happens if there's no people around? It's a secluded area. I mean, if the taam is hergel, strictly hergel, then it should be mutar. If the taam is chibah, ah, that could be a good part. What happens if the hergel is that whenever you want, you take her out? That could be hergel. That I hear. That's hergel. No, I'm saying the hergel is that whenever you... That's your routine. Very well said. I couldn't find the right word. Not as modern. I've been 20 years away from the dating business. That's your routine, okay? You take her out. מנהג חנם. But if the taam is chibah... I mean, it's chibah. You're going, you're bedavka sitting down for that. That's what you're going for. I would say it's asur. I don't know. I know the velt is not so makpid on it. I don't know why. Does he matir? What's the story l'maaseh? Huh? No one talks about taking you out, because they don't take their wives out for supper. That's what it is. They don't know what it is. The shnitzel. The wife makes the schnitzel anyway. Reb Chaim opined, You're allowed to? Then you're allowed. He told his son that you're allowed to. He told his son? Who told his son? It wasn't machlokes. He quoted Shu"t Noda B'Yehuda, it says no. Oh, you quote Shoshanas HaMelech and says no? I was looking, I didn't find. He quoted from... In higayon it doesn't make sense that it's... Doesn't sound right. Well, again, there's no chibah. If it's just another way of eating burgers and then French fries to get it over with, if it's a pizza store just to get it over with for supper, I hear. But if the reason is, the only makom I can say is if you learn it's heter, like the Shulchan Aruch, and that's why sheitel works, like the Sidrei Taharah. Shulchan Aruch paskens heter and not chibah. Efshar, efshar. It's a big heter I'm giving you. Write it down. If the taam is heter... I don't know. Oh, now, agav, I want to throw in a little bit of informational פה. Yenaleh eat b'kaira echad, yeah? Why not? So I asked you why does the Shulchan Aruch not bring it down? So the Shach says, kal v'chomer. I wasn't really very happy with that, so say it. L'maaseh, the Pischei Teshuvah says the pshat is shiurei maich. He doesn't say that it's kaira echad. Altz chibah. Now, it could be chibah, but where there's yeshino, you still have a problem, shiurei maichal, okay? Kaira echad is a problem even with heker because of shiurei maichal. There's a Kav HaYashar, which is kedai to know. Kav HaYashar writes in perek yud-zayin that you should be very nizhar to eat b'kaira echad, because the spit of your wife, the nida, could bring tremendous sakana. It's a very big danger. Tumah. Frightening, okay? It's a tremendous tumah. And there's one problem with this. There's one problem. If you look at the Rama in se'if daled, Rama talks that in case, let's say he drinks or she drinks, whatever, and someone else drank in the middle. Oh, so what's that? If you learn that the pschrei is a tumah and you have to be careful of shiurei maichal and ganze maises, so it wouldn't make—unless you learn it's like an anecdote, you know, when someone else comes in the middle and he cleans it off, the saliva of the other guy is misaken the saliva of the wife. You're laughing. You know, the saliva is a cleansing agent. By the bris milah, one of the reasons that they...

The germs in the mouth and the thing, and what do they call that, the canker sores and that fissure, the ... that he killed the baby because of—what was the name of that thing, the canker sores? What's it called? Herpes. Herpes, because of the herpes, right? So what do they taina? Chas v'shalom. Reb Elsky, I heard this from him many times. The saliva itself is a fakert; it's an antiviral. There's antiviral proponents in the saliva of a person. A fakert, it's healthy, and that's where the ... is to use the saliva. We'll talk about the ... different. Point being, maybe that's the pshat. Another guy drinks it, he cleans it off that way. You know, the Gemara tells us that when you have a mefunak, you're not allowed to give off kiddush in istanis. The Gemara says because there was once a rebbe that drank, and everybody drank from him, and what happened was that he meis. So what was he meis from? Nothing? You mean it was just in his mind he died? He died from psychological problems? Stam he died because he felt something. Ay, saliva is a cleaning agent, ... You see that it's not so. I remember in Vizhnitz, I'll never forget. You know I had Vizhnitz, right? You know, by the litvishe, if you don't wash your hands, yeah. In Vizhnitz, the rebbe takes the bowl of soup, and every guy uses the same spoon, thousands of people, the same spoon, and they go down the thing. And I'm standing there watching, and I'm going, Why these guys must be real courageous. The rebbe spit, the rebbe ... makdish, it's kodesh. Okay, to make a long story short, maybe that's the pshat. I know that the Darkei Teshuva held that this is narishkeit. He writes a very interesting shlosh against the Kav HaYashar. He said the Kav HaYashar just wants to scare you. So the whole sefer, Kav HaYashar, is scaring you. It's scaring. The idea of the sefer, he was trying to prove that the Kav HaYashar is to scare you. You know, a lot of times, for example, and this I want to tell you also, that when a person steps over another person, what do they tell you? You're not going to grow, if you know that, right? You know about that? You're not going to grow. They also tell you that if you drink from havdalah, you'll have a beard. If a woman drinks from havdalah, she'll have a beard. So let me tell you, women don't drink from—if they drank, they won't have a beard. And if you step over, you will grow. It's not true. The whole thing is not true. Black klad is buchain ma'asis. Huh? Where does it come from? They try to scare the person not to do it. The actual mekor for it is women don't drink from havdalah; it's not chiyuv in havdalah. Men, you don't step over another guy, is the Gemara, because you might step on him. So what do they make you do? They make you step over. They make you go back, right? They think, You step out again. What are you gaining from it? It's such a narishkeit. If you knew— Okay, so I tell the Ber Moshe that intellectual people would learn differently. The Ber Moshe was a tzaddik. The real reason is this: it makes more sense that they're just scaring the living daylights out of you. The mekor of it is stepping over, and the stepping back is a shtus, because the whole reason is you don't step over. Why do they make you step back over? Because they don't know the halacha. They don't know where it comes from. They're telling you, so the women—the women tell you, You better step over like that. That's going to be the anecdote for stepping over. Okay, now. Kitzur, what am I trying to bring out? The kava yashar. But I want to tie in kava yashar's derech. I don't want to learn the kava yashar scary. Ready? I want to tie it like this. You know what the tumah is? The tumah is if it's b'issur, end of. Once it's not a problem in harkakos, no, it's not metameh. No, it's the saloi. Not explaining to you. You ready? Brisker Rav—I told this too many times—Brisker Rav held that macholos asuros, that the Rav paskens is kosher, even if klapi Shmaya galya it's macholos asuros, is not metameh. For example, Brisker Rav says in the sefer, if you ate on Yom Kippur, it'll be metameh you just like if you ate macholos asuros. If it's mutar for you to eat on Yom Kippur, it's not metameh. And if let's say the Rav paskens that you're a choleh and you're mechuyav to eat, l'chazar, it's not metameh. The Mesilas Yesharim is mashma not that way. Mesilas Yesharim is mashma there's something inherently tameh about macholos asuros. But the Brisker Rav learned—I told this too many times—it's the issur sheboi that creates the tumah. Meileh, where it's not asur, Yom Kippur, if let's say you're patur, mechuyav to eat on Yom Kippur, then it's not. But if you're not mechuyav to eat on Yom Kippur...

The same as the saliva, let's say. The same as the saliva. And that's the Rambam. The Rambam is saying is once it's not ..., the saliva is not going to kill you. Saliva kills you when it's chametzed. Not it's hot, cold, because it is a problem? I don't know. Okay, let's move on. Agav. Now, kitzur, to get to the yesod of the sugya, I want to taina a chiddush. Is the problem the yachad of the achilah, or is the problem the shulchan and the kaira? Which is the problem? The problem is I'm eating together with you, and the only way we can create together, if it's the shulchan echad. Otherwise, what shaychus do I have with you? Or the problem is, al ha-shulchan means b'shulchan echad; b'kaira means b'kaira achas. The problem is me eating from your plate. Is kaira achas me eating together with you and the kesher is through the plate, or is the problem b'kaira achas to eat from your plate? I think that that's the machlokes, the Shulchan Aruch and the Rama. If you notice that the Shulchan Aruch did not speak about kaira. The Shulchan Aruch spoke about shulchan, and the Shach comes along and says, What is it? It's kal vachomer. Yes. Okay. So why not? Why didn't you write kaira? You know what the teretz is? Kaira is not a din. Kaira is just another heichi timtza. Of eating together, nikusher. There's some connection between the two of us. So if the shulchan makes the problem, so the kaira on the shulchan zicher makes the problem. If the shulchan echad is a problem, so the kaira achas is shulchan echad plus. So there's no special din of kaira achas. That's what the Shach means. Bichlal, masayim mona is not trying to tell you it's a bigger avad, it's also misvara. He's saying that kaira is shulchan echad plus. You can't get ein lecha shulchan echad yoser gadol mizeh. That's what he means. It's a whole new taich in the Shach. Look at the Shach. What did the Shach say? Did the Shach just say it's poshut like that, or did the Shach say bichlal, masayim mona? Go read it. No? Why? Huh? Don't say kavachomer. Bring me one of the acharonim, anybody. The nusach is bichlal, masayim mona. Give it to me. Huh? Who says it? Says the loshon bichlal, masayim mona. Where does it come from? It's a loshon of somewhere. It's one of the... No, he didn't make up. They all said, obviously either they're all stealing one from the other, because everybody says the loshon bichlal, masayim mona. By the shulchan, bichlal, masayim mona. They all say it. No? Yeah, where is it? Don't say gimel. You gotta find it for me. Don't say gimel. I don't know what this is. I can't be bothered. Bichlal, masayim mona. You have it? You know where it is? So find where the makor is of bichlal, masayim mona. I should repeat the din. He has a big date tonight with his restaurant. Three months in advance already he prepared the restaurant. Okay. You got it? Bichlal mosaiman, yeah? V'zehu kavanas haShach b'das Maran. He's also learning that. They're learning, they're learning, it's not a davar pashut, it's bichlal mosaiman. I also understood it. What the Shach is saying is that it's bichlal mosaiman. It's, it's—huh? Sure it is. You can't have a heker for kairachos. But that's a difference. Wait a minute. First of all, we don't know if that's true, because the Shach—how do you look at the Pischei Teshuva? What do you mean? Pischei Teshuva says maybe it'll work for kairachos. One second. So that's not good for Rafi, because the Pischei Teshuva does, but for Rafi it's not good enough.

Okay, I'm sorry. You know what? On the bottom of your Pischei Teshuva, the leirah is daiti shes dvarim. Write it. I don't know what you want from my life. The Pischei Teshuva, I was trying to tell you this, that eventually we're going to get to this Pischei Teshuva that compares kaira achas to shulchan achas. I was trying to get to—this was my whole nekudah—that kaira achas is shulchan achas. And you know what I have from this? I'll tell you one thing. Wait a minute! I want to talk to you about this. Wait a minute! I want to discuss this. That's exactly what I want to discuss. That's exactly what I want to get to. With this, I'm going to tell you chidushim, gevaldige chidushim in halacha, which everybody talks about, and it's telling on this nekudah: is it kaira, kaira achas? Is kaira achas like shulchan achas? Okay. Does shulchan achas have anything to do with that it's his? Does it have to do that it's my shulchan, or that's the chibur between me and you in the achilah? It's the chibur. That's all it is. It's not my shulchan. Yes. It's the chibur, right? If you learn kaira, you can learn kaira that it's like shulchan achas, and it's a kav l'chomer, it's bichlal mosaimanu, or kaira, the problem is it's my plate, and it's chibah. Eat from my plate. Who are you—tell me, would you eat from the stranger's plate? You're eating from my plate. You know what the nafka mina is? I'll show you a major nafka mina, besides what you said, which I was going to get to later. Let's say you eat al shulchano echad when it's on the shulchan itself. No plate. No plate. You take right off the table. Bread. Huh? Bread. Bread? Whatever they put on the table, I don't know. They put food on the table. What's so... Fruits. Yeah, you guys don't know what it is because you guys have a table with baskets and grandmothers who take care of you. In the Ashkenazi, it's here. Take the spaghetti. It's on the table. Eat it, all right? You guys don't know what it is. I'm telling you, you're not masig what it is. The food is just there on the table here. Fruits and vegetables, take them, they're on the table. They don't have a מוסיף. A fruit is on the table. You're lucky the chicken isn't on the table. Milchmar doesn't come with plates, so then you're not going to have plates on your table. That's how everykeit came from Milchmar. That's how you're going to have it. With silver foil, then it's on the silver foil on the table. That's what it is. Okay, now, lefi zeh, I want to tell you a very big chiddush. What happens if it's his plate, he finished eating? A, he got up and left, or even if he didn't get up, he's sitting there, but he finished. If you learn that it's a shaylah of achilah b'yachad, that they ate together, they're not eating together. He's finished, and it's mutar, and he יכול eat. She could use his plate after he's finished. Halachah l'maaseh, could you use your husband's plate? Yes. But if you learn that you're not allowed to eat from his plate, not so pashut, unless you say once he's finished eating, it's not his plate anymore. Once he's not eating anymore, it's not his plate. What? What's your maichal? Using the plate. You want to take his... Remember, but you're not allowed to use the same plate, though. I'm telling you, are you allowed to use the same plate? Yes. She could have from the guy. This is on him, not on her. Unless she's thinking. First of all, which plate? You know what? You know what? Just because you're bothering me, the other way around. You know what? She finished eating with the plate. Can he use the plate now? Okay, now you finished? There's no food, I'm telling you, just the plate. Why would it be aser? Because it's her plate. Yeah, but again, what kind of thing are we talking about? The leftovers? Or the plate totally clean? She finished drinking her cup. What if it was dry food that you pick it up? But he's saying you're allowed if she's finished eating already. I'm telling you an interesting... If the problem is you're not allowed to eat from a plate, so it's his plate or her plate, however you want to nuj me, I don't care what you're nujing me now. Empty plate. But if the problem is that you're not allowed to eat together from the same plate, it's not together anymore. He's finished. That's all. It's over. Tiferes Sei, there's a very nice sefer, Tiferes Sei. I cheated, I found it in the cheating books. They bring down the Tiferes Sei. Finished, efshar mutar, efshar can be meikel. Sugya by shishanim, what other sefarim do they quote? Gan Shoshanim, all the shoshanim. Okay, they all ask this shaila.

What happens if he finished? L'choira, it's תלוי in the shaila. If you understood YU well, it's תלוי in the shaila. Okay, let's say more. What's wrong? What's bothering you? What? You think it's a silly shaila? Okay. Why is it so silly? Okay, so you see? Okay, you see, you know what your problem is? You decide it has to do with שיעורין. Maybe kairach has nothing to do with שיעורין. All of a sudden, all of a sudden, you see, you saw the blink. Why not? Okay, so I'll show you that the hypocrite that you are. You yourself learned the piskei teshuva, kaira achas, and then when I showed you it has to do with שיעורין, you said it took you five minutes to fathom that it has to do with שיעורין. You were telling me that, watch, kaira achas is שולחן ערוך. שולחן ערוך has nothing to do with שיעורין. שולחן ערוך has nothing to do— But we don't know that. That's a chiddush. I'm trying to clarify: is it שולחן ערוך, or is a new halacha called שיעורין, or is it a new halacha called kaira? Yes. You know what? You'll ask it afterwards. I have so much more. I have twenty more pages. Let me finish, and then you can ask what you want afterwards. I'm here. I'm not leaving. Well, the truth is I probably will leave if he bothers me, but, right, let me take care what I have to take care of. Okay. Where are you going? Don't go anywhere. Don't go. Okay, now, you hear? What happens if they have a serving plate in the middle, a serving plate, okay, and they're both eating from the serving plate. So the truth is, I know that's a very big shailah, and I'll tell you why. If you learn that the problem is that it's his plate, this is not his plate; it's meant for everybody. It's meant for everybody. If the problem is that they're eating together and the chibur is the plate, like the shulchan, then you have a problem. Then you have a problem. They're eating together from the same plate. If the shulchan and the kair is just a heichi timtza to put them together, that it's called maichal b'yachad, then you have a problem. But if the problem is that you're not eating from his plate, his plate, what makes it his plate? What makes the shiurim maichal? Okay, you know what? It's not his shiurim maichal; it's everyone's shiurim maichal. The problem is, what happens if there's nobody else at the table? That's an interesting shailah. There's nobody else at the table, and the wife comes with a big serving plate and puts it down to show that she makes fancy dinners for the guy. What happens then? I don't know, because there the pshat is it was never meant to be shelo either. It was meant to be shelahem, so vaiter, I don't know, it was meant for both of them. Unless something like this: what happens if she makes it in a serving plate and she doesn't eat, she's on a diet, right? So you know that it's meant for him. The only thing is it was done in a serving plate, but it's meant for him. Then we could start clarifying that it might be shelo, in case she changes her mind and she decides to eat from it. But these are chumras, I don't know, mechtaisa. All right? According to this, yep. What would be if they go on a trip? On a trip, and they have, let's say, a thing, what do you call that, a container, a plastic container, and they both want to eat from that container. Take separate containers, mine and yours. When there was worms in nida, you'll take mine and yours, like towels, mine and yours. You take one container. If the problem is to eat from one, you have a problem. You might have a problem. But if the pshat is that it's never really his, it has to be kaira sheloi, to aser it. This is not kaira sheloi and it's mutar. Huh? It's meant for us. It's not meant for me. If the problem is, so they would be able to eat it together. That's my chiddush. My chiddush, it would come out, unless you learn a new chiddush that kaira becomes like shulchan. Without a shulchan, kaira echad could turn into shulchan echad, because kaira echad is shulchan echad also. Then it would be a problem to eat together. But then one after another, I take and you take, I take and you take, maybe it's mutar. Huh? You're on a trip, you want to eat the scrambled eggs you made together. You're hungry. What, are you paskening like that? No, you're not paskening. Sounds good. If the pshat is that it's mine, so when they take it l'chatchila together...

On a trayf, it's not mine, it's ours. Unless you say that kai rechah is like shulchan echad. So this being mechaber, so then it's aser. So there's another plastic plate involved, and you could eat, it's not shulchan echad. Ah, now you come on another chiddush. It's brought down, the poskim, Taz. Taz says if you have a thing which is for the public, if you take from it and you put it into another plate, then it becomes mutar, yeah? Now, l'choira, if you learn that the problem is his kaira, so then it's aser. Even if you take from there and put it to you. But if the pshat is it's the chibur, once there's a keli in the middle, then it's mutar. Where do I get this from? The Taz. The truth is that what I'm telling you now has nothing to do with the Taz, and I'll tell you why. The story of the Taz was that it's a plate meant for everybody. When it's a plate meant for everybody, yeah, it's a plate meant for everybody, right? So what should be aser? So when I take from that plate and he takes, so the whole problem is what? The chibur of the kaira. So the minute I put it into another pot, another utensil, then there's no chibur. But when it's kaira sheloi and you hold kaira sheloi is a problem al kaira sheloi, who says the Taz would be maskim that if I took from kaira sheloi and put it in a second cup, it would be mutar? But everybody else is eating from it. Again, you see, I'm trying to tell you, when you have a middle plate, right? So if it's for everybody, so then the Taz is mechadesh that I'm taking, she's taking, but if she takes and she takes and puts it into something else, then I'll be matir it. So should I use that svara also on my kaira? Can I use the same svara on my plate? Let's say I finish eating, she'll take from my plate and put it into her plate. I could say, yeah, you see the Taz held like that by the main plate, because it's not doimeh to the main plate. Because if you learn that the main plate and my kaira is the same halacha, so then you can apply the Taz. But if you learn my plate is a different problem, it's like shiurei maichel, it's like my plate, it's different, it's chibah, it's a whole different sugya, then who says the Taz's halacha would apply? Then who says the Taz's halacha would apply? Oh. The Rama, I guess we'll do Thursday. The Rama we'll do Thursday, okay? Mappa, all right? So what's halacha l'maaseh paskened? It's not on a plate and it's on the same table. Hakol mutar. So then it depends. The whole chibur is they're eating together on the same table, right? In case she takes it from the table and puts it on her plate, then you have the Taz, יהיה מותר. But if you learn that the problem is my plate— No, I'm saying, no. So then anyway it's not a problem, because it's not his plate. But I'm saying, my table. There's no my table, unless by the Mechaber it's my table right here. Okay, good. So we started this sugya. We started this sugya.