Hilchos Harchakos: Sleeping in One Bed, Separation Between Beds, and Hefsek

Transcript

Lo yishan ima. Nita afilu kol echad bivgdoi, v'ein nohagin zeh bazeh. Lo yishan means to sleep, l'choira. What about shechivah? What about laying without sleeping? So I saw Acharonim discuss this. Is yishan, yishan is mashma sleeping? What about laying without sleeping? So I see the Badei HaShulchan says a chiddush, that the reason why it says yishan, because yishan is even a bigger chiddush than not yishan. Mipashut you would say that shechivah without yishan is a bigger chiddush. But yishan, because to sleep together for the night, you would say it's less of a chiddush. He says no, it's more of a chiddush. Why? Because since it's b'bigdam, who goes to sleep with their clothing? V'hainu, that I guess bigadim means bigdei, not pajamas, paker, because then it's no shinui. It's bigadim b'gadim, l'choira. In other words, it would come out, l'choira, I'm saying that the word bigadim means daily clothing. So we have two chiddushim. The first chiddush is lo yishan means shechivah included. I'll say shechivah l'choira is a bigger chiddush; it should have said shechivah. He says no, yashen is a bigger chiddush because no one's going to be yashen with bigadim. So obviously he meant bigadim means bigdei yom, right? Regular clothing. The jacket. He went to bed with a jacket, so you would say with a jacket. Mashma lan. Yashen even b'begadim. So there's two chidushim: shechivas aser and begadim is nevertheless aser. Shechivas aser and begadim is nevertheless aser. Maybe not. Maybe the whole diyuk is nishtadnus. I could come and say, yashen — yashen doesn't have to mean I shut. And the biggest raya is, you're supposed to go to sleep in the sukkah, right? It doesn't mean shut eye, because once it's shut eye and sleeping, you're patur from mitzvos. Yashen is patur. It means to go to sleep, right? So it's not you're sleeping; it's the going to sleep. So now you have to differentiate: I'm going to sleep, I'm just laying down. Maybe yashen means to lay down, to lay to go to sleep. Laying down — who knows, there's such a thing called shechivah, that he's laying down and in his mind he's not planning on sleeping. I mean, most people, when they lay down in bed to rest, to just make shechivah, they're going to fall asleep anyway. I'm saying, so you're playing around with what is a kavanah now. L'choirah, the word yashen means shechivah, and I don't think the diyuk is so stark. So what comes out is that the chidush is stark. Maybe taka by begadim that he really is wearing regular clothing, maybe it's taka not this issur. And the word begadim that's brought down in the Shulchan Aruch is taka begadim shelayla, maybe. Because the chidush is they're not arum, they're not b'kiruv basar, arum. So there's pajamas, but lo yatzui taka, the guy went to sleep in his coat. Maybe it's godel, he lays down in his bed. Maybe it's not. Yesh lain, okay? What am I doing? I'm saying bichidushim, but I'm teaching you how to pasken. This is how a pasuk would address. So again, lo yishan. Lo yishan means what? To sleep? Yes. Does it mean to rest? Does it mean just to lay down? So some want to say yishan means yishan and not resting, because otherwise you should have said lo yishkav al ha'mita. So the Baadei HaShulchan says a chiddush, yishan is the bigger chiddush. That's why it says yishan, beshchivah is pashut. So if yishan is the bigger chiddush, what is the bigger chiddush? I would have thought yishan is the bigger chiddush. No, yishan is the less, because begadim. Truly, it's a nice diyuk. What does begadim mean? What's included in begadim? So he wants to say regular begadim. It's regular begadim. Now the truth, he doesn't mean sheregular begadim, he says begadim. So, I mean, l'choira it doesn't mean pajamas, because then it's normal. I mean, if it's normal, it's normal, you know? Pashut he meant begadim means regular clothing. Begadav means regular clothing. So maybe, and hachanami, if you learn yishkav means yishan.

Because truthfully, when a person goes to sleep, it's not the sleeping, it's the going to sleep, it's the laying to go to sleep. So shechivah is anyway included, unless you start saying, what was his intention? I don't know, you know, he's laying down. So maybe on a Chanami we could say that if this would be begadim, and if there's a heker, that this halacha doesn't apply. I want to discuss throughout the shiur this nekudah. Does heker make a difference? In the sugya of yishan, heker, does any difference, something shinui or anything to remind them, should it make a difference? We don't see it in halacha. In halacha, it's halacha pesukah: don't go to sleep with her in the same bed, even if it's not kiruv basar, they're not nogea zeh bazeh, even if they're begadim, no shinui. Other harchakos, it does work. Let's say al shulchan echad, it does work, right? Does it work here? We find by every harchakah, if there's a shinui, there's a shinui; if there's a heker, there's a heker. What about here? Would a heker apply over here? I want to say, in a nutshell, I just told you beautifully the yesod of this se'if. Is it like the שאר harchakos? Or maybe it's even more different than שאר harchakos, and just by שאר harchakos, shinui would work. Here there's no discussion of shinui at all. Now let's learn inside. Actually, not inside, but the yesod of this din. What is the yesod? What's it telling? What's the reason for this halacha? So the truth is, the Acharonim throw around, I mean the poskim Acharonim, not the later Acharonim, three sevaros. They're juggling between three sefarim. One is takif yitzrei. Sleeping in the same bed, it's almost impossible to control yourself. Takif yitzrei. The second one is hergel aveirah, hergel aveirah. The Pischei Teshuva brings this down from the Mekor Chaim. I don't know if you saw the Pischei Teshuva inside. He mentions that the Mekor Chaim says it has to do with hergel. Now, hergel has a lot to do with the other harchakos, right? Hergel, it's normal. You do what's normal, so the next step is you can live with your wife. You have to show shinuyim b'shaas nidah. Same thing like the Shulchan. It's the same sevara of Shulchan. Shulchan is not being in the same bed with her, but it's hergel. Okay. Takif yitzrei, it's interesting. The Pachad Shulchan, very interesting. He brings a raya from a Yalkut Shimoni. If you look at the bottom of the Pachad Shulchan, he says, Nir'eh ali, it's not because of hergel, it's because of takif yitzrei. And he brings two rayas, and one of them is from a Midrash, from a Yalkut Shimoni. But the ikar raya is because they all talk about palti ben layish, ishto acheres. That's the sugya over here, with sleeping in the same bed, Palti, right? What was his name again? Michal. Palti ben Layish with Michal, right? So he put the—right, she was engaged to David, Michal was engaged to David, and Shaul gave it to Palti, and Palti went, put a knife in between the two of them. So it's ishto acheres. The sugya is about ishto acheres. Ishto acheres is not about hergel aveirah. Ishto acheres is about takif yitzrei, which means he can't control himself. Not because it's normal, and therefore you might come to do what you normally do, because it's not normal. Okay. So we have two sevaras. We have takif yitzrei, and we have the sevara of hergel. I want to taina a chiddush that actually it's not about takif yitzrei. Like— I don't understand hergel. You're gonna forget she's needy? You're gonna forget all of a sudden? That's right. Hergel, like we always learn, every seif— Not because takif yitzrei, stam you're just gonna forget that she's needy. Yes, like every other seif that we learn. She can remind you. Okay, so I don't know, where were you for the last three months? I thought over there also because of— Actually it was three months, actually three weeks, but whatever it is, where were you? But the reason of hergel is takif yitzrei, I thought. No. The reason of hergel is since it's normal, you'll forget. Hergel. You do it normally with your wife, the next step, you don't— That's what we learn. What does that mean? That's takif yitzrei if you can— I mean, I would even say hergel is somewhere in between the two. It doesn't have to be mamash shogeg, shogeg, which means is— No, he wants to do the ma'aseh, but he doesn't remember that point. He'll overlook it because it's so normal and so— Right. It's not for now. The point is we learned this whole— this takif yitzrei.

And this hergel was. I'm going to taina chiddush, and I believe it's emes, and I'm going to prove it. Why are you laughing? You're laughing, you're laughing already. I'm going to taina chiddush, huh? No. I'm going to say something completely different. You know what I'm going to say? You hear? Listening? You know what I'm going to say? Sleep in the same bed. It's not harchakos. To sleep in the same bed is kirva b'etzem, nichlal lo sikrav l'galos ervah. That's called kreivah. There's harchakah, which is maybelidei, and this is more than that. Almost like negiah. Even without touching. Just like you're not allowed to touch her, because that's a certainly secreh. He's looking that someone says this. I hope someone says, because I didn't find anyone say it, but I'll prove to you that it's true. I'll prove it. That it's more. It's not just the halacha of, you hear, of, it might come to. That's called avizrayhu, avizrayhu d'arayos. You're too close to her. Just like you're not allowed to touch, and I'll sleep in the same bed, I'll prove it. Ready? You know, let me just explain what I mean. You know, a person would sit at the same table with another person, I hope. So the fact that the other person is the wife doesn't make it issues. There the problem is it might come to because hergel, whatever the reasons are. But to sleep in the same bed with another person, that you don't do unless it's your wife. Well, you're not well, one of the two, right? So if it's your wife, that itself is a maiseh of to be niskarev lishteni. Now, certain things which it might come to, you could play, whatever games with a stranger. You play with your wife, there's a shaylah it might come to, and that's a whole shaylah, right? Here it's, you don't sleep only with your wife in the same bed, so you're doing actions of kreivah lishto. Let me go further. I believe that that's what the Rama is referring to. If you look at the Rama, the Rama says like this: Haga, afilu yesh l'chol echad matzah bifnei atzmo. Even if every person has their own bed, right, their own whatever cushion, okay? Linin, yeah. Afilu yesh l'chol echad matzah bifnei atzmo. Beis Yosef d'loi k'Rebbeinu Yerucham. So first of all, what is the Rama? What is Rabbeinu Yerucham being cholek on? So it's the same bed, right? Comes along the Rama and he says each one has their own bed setting, let's use the word bed setting, af al pi kein it's asur. Pshat, pshat. If it has to do with hergel aveirah or takif yitzrei, what's the difference if each one has their— they're the same matzav. Sheini. So that's, we have to discuss if sheini really works. You see, that's what I'm telling you. If you understood my hakdamah. You'll understand what's behind this, behind all these dinim. So either Rabbeinu Yerucham is learning it's a shinui, and the Rama is saying, I don't care about shinui; it's not negeia, right? Why? So then we could say myvor. If it has to do with, you know, let's sleep in the same bed because b'etzem it's kreivah, so what does shinuiim have to do with anything? I mean, you can have all the shinuiim you want; you're sleeping in the same bed with somebody else, right? But if the pshat is that it's not about kreivah, it's about harchakah, so the shinui, like any other shinui, says Rabbeinu Yerucham. And that's the machlokes, Rabbeinu Yerucham and the Rama. Like it? I hate it. Why ruin something nice? Could you imagine you go over to Angelo, the painter, you tell him, You know that beautiful painting? I saw a magazine that has, you know, a comic strip that looks very much like what you painted. What are you doing to me? We're not holding. Let's discuss this afterwards. First let's learn the text. In the meantime, I'm learning you what it says here. Does it say a machlokes Rishonim if it's on a different mattress?

Ramos says no, and the Biruruchim says yes. So I'm explaining to you, why are they arguing? What's the machlokes? And the answer is this sevara: kreiva. Kreiva is aser even without shinui. Could you touch your wife backhanded? And you come over to your wife and, kolacha yad, right? That you're not allowed to do, because kreiva is aser. So all the shinuyim wouldn't make a difference. Ma she'ein kein, if it has nothing to do with ... chacham, because maybe a shinui will work. Okay, that's the machlokes. Now, the truth is, if you want to be a real lamdan, you could start saying lomdushkeit like this, the opposite. The Rama held that you need such a harchakah that's going to stop you with an iron knife from takif yitzrecha. What, so just because if you're sleeping on the same bed with different bed sheets, it's not going to be takif yitzrecha? Ma she'ein kein, he farkert. The Rama learned, right, so the Rama learned it's not takif yitzrecha. Let's say it that way. So therefore the different matzavim don't work. Well— What? I can't hear. A bad heker. That's what I want to say. Could be. That's the other way how to learn the Rama. The other way to learn the Rama is, avada heker works, but not this one. But not this one. Why? So again, if it's alstakif yitzrecha, what do you want? You're sleeping in the same bed. What do you—what, you have different— Could you imagine if a guy puts up a sign? Remember we said that we could clear a chakirah, that if a guy's on the same table with his wife and he puts up a sign she's a niddah, maybe it's mutar. So maybe what? You're gonna declare the same by the bed, you'll sleep in the same bed with her and put up a sign? Come on, it has to be a good heker. It has to be something that'll stop them, right? ... Those are the two ways how you're supposed to learn the Rama. You hear? Or you're still busy because of what it says in the book. So why don't you, why don't you—come on. No, warn and listen. Clap, enjoy, listen. We're teaching, it's gevaldik. Beautiful what we're saying here, you hear? Okay. Okay, so, refol, you're maskim to the two ways to learn the Rama. Either Rama held heker doesn't work, or the Rama is telling that this heker doesn't work. What about the heker works? Okay. And not with the ... With this, with this, we can say ... afkamina. Takke in the story of begadim. If a person goes to sleep in his begadim, so it's like different matzayos, l'choira. Meaning, maybe even the Rama would be maskim to a case of different begadim, begadim begadim. If a person goes to sleep in his clothing, right? Kenza, mashen kein if it's about kreiva b'etzem, it wouldn't make a difference, all the begadim in the world. Okay. Now, l'fi zeh, dafka ... Why would the Rama, why would the Shulchan Aruch bring it in the harchakos then? I mean, if it has to do with kreiva, it should have been in the simanim where you're not allowed to kiss your wife. It should have been in those simanim. Why is it in the simanim of harchakah? And— Truthfully, this kasha bothers me anyway, even if I don't say mah shetikel Torah. In harchakos, let's say it is a harchakah. I'll answer the phone. Can I answer? Yeah? You know how I answer the phone, right? The person died. I always answer that. I'm sorry. You didn't hear? You know how I answer the phone, right? You died, right? Now you'll ask me a kasha: why would I say, al tiftach peh l'Satan? Maaseh rav, I learned this from the Chofetz Chaim. That's how the Chofetz Chaim answered his wife. Ishto shel haChofetz Chaim asked him to come quickly, quickly, something in the house, right? The store — actually it was the store. Come to the store quickly. You know what he answered? Tell her I died. You don't know the maaseh? He said, Tell her I died. Here's a good story for you: Tell her I died, said the Chofetz Chaim. So everybody, what? She came running, what? He said to her, Adam ki yamus b'ohel. Ein haTorah nikneis atzmah ella mi shemeimis atzmo. Pshat, says the Chofetz Chaim, I'm dead. There are certain hours I can't. Could you ask a dead person to do something for you? Says the Chofetz Chaim, that's what it means. Shemeimis atzmo ela means those hours, kaput. That's how you say it in Russian? In German? It's Yiddish.

How do you say it in Russian? Conscious, that's what I want. Conscious. Conscious. Huh? Not conscious? Conscious. Yiddish is also, it's also Yiddish. Conscious was borrowed from the German Yiddish, it's kaput, and the other one is conscious. Conscious. Yiddish you say conscious. Okay. Point understood. Huh? All right, let's go. Now, kasha. Even if let's say it is harchakah, I'm not sure why it's towards the end of the harchakahs. I mean, this should have been the first one, no? I mean, what is the most chamur harchakah that you can... sleep in the same bed with her, no? Why would you talk about the easier ones and then all of a sudden, you can't sleep with her in the same bed? I know, it bothers me a little bit. It's like a strange thing that all of a sudden, you know, either way, it should have been, that's the pashut halachah, you know? And kol shekein, and kol shekein, kol shekein, shein, kavod haTeirah. Shein, what afeh, kavod haTeirah, kavod haTeirah, you're a tzaddik, kavod haTeirah. Okay, yeah? Lo yishan should have been where? It should have been in the beginning, the most chamur, the most chamur. Good kasha. It's a good haarah. I don't know. But kol shekein, if you learn my vort, that this is not about harchakah, but it's more about be'etzem kreivah, it shouldn't have been in the middle. It should have been either first or somewhere else. Okay. I want to say chiddush according to this. Anything which is not derech ishah u'baal... Like Shulchan, it doesn't have to mean the ishu baal, right? It doesn't have to be. Then heker works. Okay, let's discuss bunk beds. Bunk bed's a big tumah, big tumah nachri. Why? A, it could be mita achas. B, even if you don't have mita achas, you have the second halacha that it's nogei'a zu b'zu. The Ramo's second halacha, that they're touching each other. Okay, so I want to tie in like this: is it derech ish u'baal to sleep in a bunk bed? I hope not. Okay? Hope not. I hope you didn't. I don't know any couple before they get married, they go into the store, Can you give us some bunk beds? You know right away that there's a prenumption involved, right? Either the guy's 100 and the girl is 20, or the lady's 100 and the guy is 20. Something's wrong, right? You know there's something right away wrong over there. It's a small—maybe, but it's not common, it's not normal, right? I don't think any husband and wife go and l'chatchila to buy a bunk bed. I don't believe it. Watch what I tell you, okay? Mimeila, two sfeikos I have. The first safek is it's not derech baal u'isha, not derech baal u'isha. So there's two chakiros. One chakirah, so maybe heker could work, but you don't have a heker; it's inherently a heker. It's two matzayos. Two matzayos on the same bed, right, is a heker. Then two beds, one on top of the other, zeh heker, which means al taining the Ramo would be maskim—you hear? The Ramo would be maskim to the Rabbeinu Yerucham in such a case. Ah, you're saying noygai zu b'zu. Maybe it helps for—maybe it helps also. Maybe whenever it's not derech baal ha'isha, so just like it helps for the yoshin b'mita achas, also help for the noygai zu b'zu. Meileh becomes mutar. I would say it's mutar. I would say, again, most Acharonim, I think, agree with this. The Maharshal, I think, says in the biurim that it's okay. What's your question? What's your question? What, what, what, what? It's not brought down anywhere. The Rishonim, when they say it's asur, they don't say it's because it's— I don't care. I don't care. I see in the Rishonim. You know where I see in the Rishonim? I see it over here. Rabbeinu Yerucham: Afilu yesh cholecha matzui bifnei atzmah. No, Rabbeinu Yerucham says it does work, only because it's normal to sleep—it's a husband and wife thing to sleep in the same bed. Okay, you're saying it doesn't say it. Okay, good, okay. All right. So you know what? This should be your ta'ina against me. Where does it say it? No problem. You could throw out ninety percent of Rav Moshe's teshuvos if that's how you follow. If that's your way of thinking, you might as well—you're right. You're right. So take the igros Moshe, the Igros Moshe, throw—

Because that's what the Igros Moshe does. He comes up and he says that this— no, you're not talking about the bunk bed. He's talking about the bunk bed. Bunk bed is the ... and the ... all that. Okay. Now, aser bunk bed. Oh, I'm so happy that it says it's aser. Thank you for telling me. Baruch Hashem. It's mutar. It says in the biurim, he says that it's mutar. Yes, yes, I think so, yeah. I'll tell you what, though. If you want to know the real truth, you know, by certain bunk beds, you know, you could see, you know, what's on top. Like it's a very thin bunk bed, like you put your hand out or foot out, and maybe you should sleep on top and she should sleep on the bottom. It's not fit to be sleeping on top. You want to sleep on top. That's exactly what I just said. What do you mean? I'm saying you can't really say it's one bed connected. You can't sleep on top. You're saying how if his head goes— I'm saying you might come to do— you can't sleep on top together. No, so you might come to go into whatever, so you might come down. What do you mean? Don't think of a way how to do it. What kind of— Okay, could you do me a favor? When you find that it says that it's aser, please write it down for me, okay? I'd love— I'm so happy to hear that someone else says it's aser. It makes me feel better to pasken that it's mutar. Now let's go back. I don't know what you want from me. Next. That's it. That's the story of bunk beds. If you disagree, at least you know the sugya. At least you know what the hanhaga is. Is it mita achas? Is it not mita achas? I'm tying a chiddush that whenever there's a heker, even mita achas is mutar, kal shekein in a bunk bed, which is maybe just a svara of noygos. D'hainu, for heker. How it works where it's not derech baal v'isha. Yeah. I mean, the person will hold that the bed to come out like this is mutar, even though it's touching. The zechar hold that it's mutar. I know, that's exactly what I want to talk about. You're talking about that it's stuck to the kaisel. I want to talk about that. Yeah, it's exactly. I want to talk about it. I want to talk about it. I want to discuss it. I want to discuss. When it's shnei komot. When it's shnei komot. I want to talk about it, okay? Can we talk about it, please? I told you, shh. I'm giving you the yesod of the sugya. Now, there's a big discussion about king-size beds, right? Big beds, you know, right? You know the newest thing is they take what they have that the kids jump on, you know, in the toys, the trampolines, those big ones, and they use that as a double king-size bed, you know, for today's chasanim. No, I'm serious. Husband and wife, they need it. I wasn't referring to that, but the point was that it's big. I'm trying to give you a joke that it's that big, okay? Now, a very wide bed. So there's a tumah in the poskim. Ma'aseh, the Beis Yosef asers it, right? And the Bach asers it, big beds. I want to tighten this up. Let's discuss it. Is it a bed that two people would sleep on? I know that when we went to Chaveis trips with bachurim, the bed was a king-size bed. One bachur would sleep on one side, a bachur would sleep on the other side, on the real big beds. What? This I don't know. This I don't know. But the point being, the point being, that if it's such a bed that it's not muchach baal v'isha, then if the heker works the way we're learning, that the Ramah would be maskim to the Rabbeinu Yerucham, so you can sleep in a king-size bed with a heker in the middle. But it has to be a real heker. It's a very big chiddush, but I hold it's emes. I hold this what, b'makom hadchak, b'makom hadchak. See, because I'm clarifying, I don't know if Rabbeinu Yerucham is really not the Rama. Could be the Rama's just saying, I don't hold this is called a heker. What, two matzos makes a heker? But ein hachanami, palti ben Laish type of heker, palti ben Laish type of heker, mutar. I, Palti ben Laish, so they say a sword is different because the hidukim v'cherev is even more. But all right, but the concept of a bed that's made for two people, like, I mean, the truth, let's make a cher. What is a king-size bed? A king-size bed is the type that's taka made for two people. You know what the lamdus of a king-size bed is? That's made for two people. I don't know the sizes, but the point is, king-size meant for three people.

Or for two people to sleep comfortably. Why would they need three people to sleep? Because kids—people to sleep comfortably. King size. Each person will sleep comfortably. No, but I'm saying, I'm saying that it's—again. You ever seen a hotel room with king size bed? Because they want two, no shaykhus to each other. People sleep on the same bed. It's two people. That's a luxurious thing to have a big bed. That's space. It's just luxury. I'm saying, are there beds that, l'chatchila, in case if you have kids, they knew that you might put your kids there? There's usually smaller beds. These bigger size beds. But not because it's meant for that. I don't know. I'm telling you yeshivah, that we are people where it's normal for strangers to sleep in this king size bed, other than the husband and the wife. What do you mean, lu yitzra? I'm telling you the truth. When we went on trip, what do you mean, and they gave us— So I'm trying to tell you, but you wouldn't sleep in a regular size bed. Would you sleep in a regular size bed with another guy? No. No choice. Yeah, no choice. I would sleep on the floor. What do you mean? Nobody—it's not true. It's not true. Okay, you understand what I'm talking about? Anything more than this is already stupidity. Anything to be marbeh on this is stupidity. The point being that where the matzav is such that it doesn't have to mean that the person's married to sleep in such an oifen, then there's no problem al taharchek davar, al taharchakah shebo, there's a problem. But when it's only the harchakah sheba, then heker could make. So if you put some kind of a heker, some of the devices in the house, and they give you a huge bed, a heker is enough. I think so. I think so. Let me tell you something. What do I listen? If you're a normal guy, you sleep on the floor, any normal person sleeps on the floor. But let's say, let's say you come to a matzav where you can't sleep at night. Certain people can't do it, and the wife is going to be cranky the next day because she didn't get her sleep. If you put a heker, then it could be mutar. If you put the proper heker, it could be mutar. There's a makom l'hakel. That's all I'm saying. Now, does that mean you should go around telling people this? No. Does that mean that you should know that you could say such a yesod? Yes. Think about it. It's what to be spoken about. Again, what do I want from you? I'm not interested in more than learn to see the halacha as a pasuk. Learn to be a lamdan in the halacha. Learn to see what does it mean that, here, a ma'aseh writes all the time, I spent a whole day to think of a heter. What does that mean, what do you spend? A person who kol haTorah kulah needs a whole day to think of a heter? I don't understand. If a person knows kol haTorah kulah, it's to say, chak chak, yes, no, it says it here, it says it there. He was weighing over the chidush hamoach, how to get to that chiddush. That's what I want you to do. I want you to be solid, solid, solid. What I'm doing is teaching you how to be solid in Shulchan Aruch, how to see it, how to view it, how to picture. You know, like this, I don't pasken that. I don't care what you pasken, it's not my business. But my job is, when you walk out of here, you should be able to understand what means to pasken a she'eilah and to understand the din in Shulchan Aruch. The same way I taught you how to understand the piece of Gemara. That's my job. If you put a board in the middle? Yeah. I'm telling you, any hekker is good. A serious hekker, like what I would say a hekker is, put a velis. A child is a very good shomer. I don't know, a three-, four-year-old scared to sleep at night. I would say something else. Put a velis. Put one of the velises, like the stuffle bed. I'm saying something with— that's what I would still do. I would say put something there. Put something in between and sleep. Again, I'm not— let's start again. If you know the person knows you can't control yourself, then don't do it. It's not a heter to go do aveiros. It's shaas hadchak, you know you're not gonna have a problem if you know. Ela mai, b'shaas hadchak. Again, if it won't hurt you to sleep on the floor, then sleep on the floor. Don't sleep on the bed and have your wife sleep on the floor. Okay, now, with this. Okay, so let's discuss a child. Can I do that after the shiur? In other words, I want to do it at the end. I want to do a child separately for a different reason. All right, you know, let's do it now. Could you put up a shomer? Sleep in the same bed. I hold it's תלוי in this shaila. In the same bed, even if you had a shomer, it wouldn't help you, because it's kreivah bas, because you can't sleep in the same bed with—

Touching is the issur. This is the issur. I hold sleeping in the same bed is a kreivah l'isha. It's like negiah. In other words, you can't use this svara, that's what I'm trying to say, l'kula and not use it l'chumra. That's what I want. If you look at it, then look at it as like negiah. Why? See, to sleep in a bed with a woman is a kreivah. It's a kreivah. It's one of the kerivos. I wasn't ... with the separation in two different—when it's a big bed, when it's a big bed. When the bed is a double bed and there's a hefsek, then it becomes mutar. That's what I'm talking about. Okay, let me show you more. The basic—oh, so you're talking about a child, so listen carefully, listen carefully. A child, you know, it depends. Let's say it's a baby, so shomer you don't have. Ela mai, alt hefsek. I don't know if a child is a real hefsek, because since it's normal to put a child in between the parents, I don't know if it's a big heker. It's not—what's the heker? Child is there. It's like a bigger child. So again, it's a bigger child is a shomer more, and a katan, a bigger child or a shomer, okay. Okay, again, what's that? But not in a small bed, in a big bed I'm talking about, in a big king-size bed. And let me tell you, in my mind, I don't know the size. I don't know anything about it. I really don't know the king and queen and then double king, I don't know. I don't know about these things, okay? I really don't, I just don't know. And believe me, if I knew, I would tell you. I'm obviously not ashamed to tell you anything. I tell you whatever is the truth, whatever here comes out. I just don't know. I just know there's bigger and smaller. If there is such a thing, a bed that's very big, okay, that two people wouldn't hesitate to sleep on it. If they were strangers, then the pshat is, if you put a heker in between, b'di'eved, b'di'eved, b'di'eved, b'di'eved, b'di'eved, it's mutar. Let's move on. And a child, I don't think is a heker because it's normal. Normal to put the child in between the parents. It's a normal thing. Okay, let's move on. Unless the child is older. When the child is older, then it's no problem. Okay. Now, what's with the Bach? The Bach and then the Beis Yosef that say you can't have the same bed. So first of all, I don't know how big their beds were. I don't know what that means. I don't know if it has the same big beds of today. I don't know. Second of all, you know, I don't know if he means with a heker, without a heker, because with a heker would be mutar. He didn't say with a heker. He wasn't talking about a hekerim. Next, next. In the issur of the beds touching, in the issur of the beds touching, what do you want? I didn't say it. I just saying, either the Bach, don't worry about the Bach. Either the Bach's not talking about our cases, or maybe the Bach would be maskim with a heker. I don't know. You know, what are you afraid? Because the Bach said, okay, so the Bach is talking about a smaller bed. I don't always talk. Why do I know what the big beds in those days? What do I know? Okay. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. On the floor, we'll talk about it. Can we wait? Listen, you know I'm going to do everything, so just let me talk like this, we'll get done. In other words, you'll have it. Okay. In the issur of negi'ah, nogei zu bazu, so I want to have a shaylah. Is the issur... The fact that the beds are together, or is the issur the fact that the beds touch each other? Are you allowed to touch your wife with something? No, right? So maybe that's also. You're not allowed to have you and your wife connected between, with the middle, with the mediator being two beds. Or the pshat is that the beds can't look like they're together; they can't be together. So I saw in the Pischei Teshuva, he uses a lashon, right, that they can't be nogea zu bazu, that it's nir'eh that it looks like one bed, right? That's only if it looks like one bed. That's only if it looks like one bed. What happens if it doesn't look like one bed? Now I'll give you an example. If the beds are like this, then what is it? It looks like one bed, okay. What about if the beds are like feet to feet or head to head, so that the pois can break down? Not allowed, okay. Why? Okay, maybe it looks like one bed, I don't know. Huh? What?

Can't touch. Okay. So I want to tie it like this. Listen carefully. If the issur is the mirah, and the issur negiah is not just the mere touching. It's not the actual my bed touched the bed, right? It's that the beds look like they're connected somehow. So if they're done in a way that they don't look connected, then maybe it's not a problem. What do I mean? Let's say you put one bed and the other bed in a different system. It doesn't, like a... like a tee or something weird, you know, some kind of weird best thing, l'mashal, the two corners like this, like a V. Like, oh, they do bring—who brings that? Huh? Wow, give it to me. You know what I liked? You know when I liked to watch the... when they agree with me. When they don't agree, I yell at them. Oh, they do bring it? The Pischei Teshuvah brings the Rema. Let me read me the Pischei Teshuvah clearly. Let me hear. So it's not a Pischei Teshuvah. Don't throw me Pischei Teshuvah. Huh? I told you that. I told you that is brought down. That I told you. That's something else. It says what? It's a machlokes in the two sugyas. If you learn that it's nir'eh, you'll learn that it's nogea. If it's nogea, it's asur. If it's nir'eh... Yeah, but I'm saying a different vort. I'm saying a whole different pshat. Even if it's two beds, I'm telling you a mechudik vort, listen here. If it's two beds that look like they have a connect—let's say a bunk bed, it's two beds, but they look connected. It looks like it was meant to be two, which is one. Your sofa story that you talked to me about, that you pull it out and one is higher than the other, right? In a sofa, it's nira that it's a sofa. It's nira that it's a sofa set. When you take it out, it's nira like a sofa set. Okay, I don't want to hear anything from anybody. Do me a favor, just be quiet. I'm telling you a mechudik vort. Let's start again. There's one sugya called nira k'mita achas. There's another sugya called chosheshin for nogeis. Now I'm telling you, even nogeis is about nogeis in a way that it looks like one bed. That's a mechudik vort, you hear? Lefi zeh comes out a very big chiddush. What's the chiddush? That if it's nogeis in a way that it doesn't look like one set of beds—סתם, you put two beds together—then it's mutar. For example, it's in a weird shape that people don't put beds that way. Comes out that if it's a sofa where it's not nogeisu b'zu, right? What do I mean by it's not nogeisu b'zu? It's not yachad yachad. Right? But if it's noyazu b'zu, in a way that it's niker that it's the same bed, which is higher or lower, I don't care. I don't care, because it's noyges in a way that it looks like it came one from the other, that it's asur. The heter that you could use to put it in different positions will be the reason to aser in such a case, and I believe it should be asur. I don't believe that a person could sleep on a high-rise bed that's a little bit higher and say that. A little bit higher, so what? So what? What's the difference if it's higher? It doesn't look like one bed. Huh? Bunk bed should be asur then. What? Bunk bed should be asur then, because it looks like one bed. I'm explaining to you, but a bunk bed is a whole different sugya. Bunk bed are two beds just meant to save space. It's not one bed, it's two. It's a space saver. It's a space saver, but it's meant as together. It's one unit, but it's meant— One unit, that's what I'm telling you. But it's not one bed. One unit. When you take two units and it's noticeable that you just put them together, then there's no problem of noyazu b'zu. It's a chiddush of heter.

And it will be a chiddush of issur as well. There's a heter involved and there's an issur involved. The heter involved is if I put it in, it looks together, as long as it looks like I just put it together. But if it's together—now, if you learn that it should look like mita'achas, then I hear if it's a little bit higher, even if it's nogea, then it's mutar. L'maaseh, there's two tzadim: is it nogea or is it nira? I don't know who can be machria this shaila. I mean, it's a shaila in the poskim if it's nira or it's nogea. You want to be machria, be machria. Okay, go ahead. I'm saying even in nogea, it has to be nira that it has shaychus one to the other. Huh? What's the machlokes? This shaila gufa? Yehu says—okay, let's hear. He doesn't say that. Huh? So how do you know it's a machlokes? It looks like Beis Hillel is arguing with Beis Shamai. Beis Hillel allowed the weird shape, and what's his name is not allowed. Beis Shamai. Doesn't matter the weird shape. Okay, that's the machlokes. Once it's nogea, it's nogea. All the pshat is no. If it's nogea in a way that it looks weird, that it should be mutar, and that's the shaila. Okay, good, good, good, good. We're learning good. Let's move on. Yes? Okay. Huh? Tzurot meshunot. מה לא מתיר? אם למשל אדם לוקח מיטה, שם את זה באופן שזה לא נראה כאחד, אפילו אם לא נוגעות, יכול להיות שזה מותר. Because it's not—לא נראה כשייכים חד לשני. Well, you see that it's not shayach. No husband sleeps at the chuppah in a weird way. You know what's interesting? By Boaz, she went to sleep at his feet. I was thinking about that. I don't have some shayches to feet, the head, I don't—what? I don't know, but you see that there's a way of sleeping, I guess, at the feet of some—I don't know. It just came to my head when I was learning it. I don't know. Okay, let's move on. He's my catcher. I throw the fastballs and he catches it. Okay, let's go. Lefi zeh— Okay, let me—don't ask kashas. Certain people like—everybody has his thing, you know. He likes— You want the hacker. You don't like it? That part. It feels uncomfortable. He likes it that way, but I don't like it that way. That he's on top of you like that. So come stand by me this way. I don't care. Come. Aha. Okay, Baruch Hashem. I guess I'll understand this conversation one day. I'll figure it out. I'm not sure I'm copying what's flying here, but all right. Let's go weiter. You ready? Listen good, listen good. You ready? Listen good. What's the shaylah? Is the nekudah the mitos nogeis, or is it that through the mitos nogeis, it's the husband and wife which are nogeis? Put it away, put it away. After, put it away. You'll do this later. I'm asking now another shaylah. In the nogeis, let's say the problem is not the nirah k'mitachas. Let's say it's nirah k'mitachas is one. Then there's nogeis, which is another. And even in nogeis, is the pshat is so then it becomes like nirah k'mitachas, which is the way I'm learning, or the problem is nogeis, that it's through that it comes that the husband and wife are connected. So then it would be even if it's in a weird shape, as long as it's naives, right? But I have another chiddush according to this. Let's say she's not sleeping in the bed. She's not there. So if the problem is you can't be b'mitah achas, you can't sleep in the same bed. L'maaseh it's one bed. So then you can't, even when she's not there. Because one bed. It's two separate beds. Are you allowed to sleep in her bed? No. If you learn that it's kibeit achas... Kill him! Kill him! I can't wait to get rid of him already. Kill him already. That's it, I can't take it from him. But again, you're missing the point. These two beds make it one. It's a one... It's like... even if it's his... You can put on your glasses on your head, you can do whatever you want. Do it. You deserve it now. Do it. Now you deserve to say whatever you want and do whatever you want. Bechapet if you learn that it's about mitah achas, or that you can't have your bed and her bed touching, it never said one word.

Where's she sleeping? Where's it says that she's sleeping? Maybe, maybe, maybe. Because, you know, she is here. Imagine you question. If you put this together, it's one bed. If you hold that it becomes one bed. Everybody says that it's okay. No, they say it's okay, of course. Chaim, don't blame Chaim, blame me. It's me. It's me. Don't do Chaim. Blame Chaim out of this. Chaim is a hired lawyer. You know, I'm paying for this. He's a hired worker. Okay, let's go weiter. But if you learn that the problem is nogea, nogea, meaning nogea, that you can't touch her through the beds, the baalas, she has to be there. I'm not so convinced that it's... I don't know why. I know that they all bring it down, so the baalei... but the... mistama should be mutar, mistama. And he brings his big book over there. Look at how many books he has open. Look at it. Everybody says it's not a problem. Okay. Now what? I know the Chazon. I'm going to bring the Chazon. Chazon says clearly it's brought down from the Chazonish, the Sefer Zeh HaShulchan. Chazonish, the Sefer Zeh HaShulchan writes if she's not there, there's no problem. Is the dafka when she's not home or even when she's home? ... No, even if she's in the room, even if she's in the room. Let it be in the room. According to this, let it be in the room. All right, but that's what it says in the ... from the Chazon Ish. It's very simple. Is the problem of nirah ka'achas, so it comes out looks like you're sleeping in her bed? Is the nirah ka'achas because it's like you're sleeping in her bed, and I'll sleep in her bed even if she's not there? Or is nirah ka'achas, that's another svara of nogeais, a nogeais, you're touching her and somehow you have connected there, so if she's not there, you're not connected to her, I guess. Tell me, if it's that, if it's so pashut, why would the Chazonish have to write it, and the Badei HaShulchan have to write it, and the Shevet HaLevi have to write it? What's wrong? Because maybe one crazy guy, Rabbi ... will come. It's not like that. Let's move on. What happens if they're nogeis al yedei davar acher, which means they're connected, they're connected, but they're not mamash nogeis nogeis. For example, you have a headboard, or like you ever have these beds that have like a table, the table's connected to the next straw, next straw. I know that's where I know it from, from the hotel, motel, Otel, or whatever it's called. No, it's, there's a desk in the middle. There's like a night table in the middle, and the night table is attached to both sides. So head bed, head... Headboards, okay. Or I'll give you a third case that's brought down in the poskim. You know, a lot of times you have—I mean, you don't see it so much today—from the walls itself, like in the jails they have it, from the walls itself. You have the—or from the—right, the bed goes into the wall. I haven't seen that in years, though. The trains they have it. The bed goes into the wall. Huh? In the '80s it was common. That's what I'm trying to say. I remember it, but I don't see it lately. I don't see it lately. They put it back into the wall. So let's say you have two of them. So it's mechubar through the wall. Okay, this is all headbed; it's all mechubar. Okay, now let's discuss if the chisaron is what? Negiyah. Choire, negiyah. It's all touching, unless you say that there's hefsek in the middle. Everything's touching the floor, so the bed is touching the floor. No, it's not touching. It's not attached to the floor. It's not connected. Touching. Huh? Okay, by the way, the Birkei Yosef is raya is that. That's one of the Birkei Yosef's raya. There's a Birkei Yosef that, and he says that the floor, they're touching, whatever. But that's tumah d'Rabbanan. There's a big tumah d'Rabbanan about it. Huh? He talks about the kilayis, you saw his case. There, you have the canopies, and it's touching, and it's touching on the floor, and it got some ma'ases. Okay. Point being, point being, let's analyze.

If the chisaron is negiah, right? L'maaseh, it's negiah. I can hear what you're talking about. But if the pshat is that it looks like husband and wife, it's still living in a bungalow. All these sugyas are not negiah. I don't think the sugya is negiah. The only thing that could be negiah is the headboards. Normally, you're not going to have two beds with headboards unless it's a married couple. Huh? It has to be separate if it's not. Still, it's not. You should. It's separate. You're not living with your wife. So I'm just trying to tell. But it's attached. It's attached. You have two beds are attached. The Badei HaShulchan says you got to take them off. Badei HaShulchan says no headboards. You saw? Badei HaShulchan. Yeah! The Badei HaShulchan, the yeshiva... somebody's going to have... So the point of Badei HaShulchan, you can't do it. You want to take it out and read it, whatever it is to tell you. Tell me, do you know strangers who have two beds, let's say a yeshiva, with headboards that are attached? Do you know of such a thing? Okay, that's all. So don't tell me it's not a husband. It's called a bed for a husband and wife. That's what it's called. Huh? You want to know the truth? What is Rebbe do? That's the question. What does Rebbe do? I'm going to make a guy break his headboard. Find the headboard. There are people that are not... You see his pile? Okay, he seems it's mutar. There's no question. Okay, no problem. And his book seems it's so asur that there's no question. But you tell me that he says that it's asur. Who is he? You just quoted the Badei HaShulchan. Who would you say? Oh, you never saw about this? I saw. So how did I say it? How did I say it? It's mamash how I said it. I have to teach you, you shouldn't do it. You're gonna break a guy's headset for him. What are you gonna do? But the Badei HaShulchan says you gotta do it. You know what? Can I have the Badei HaShulchan? No, you know what the problem is? The problem is you didn't read the Badei HaShulchan. If you read the Badei HaShulchan, you'd see why I'm being nervous about this whole thing. Let me tell you something. Badei HaShulchan. Can I tell you about the Badei HaShulchan? You see that he learned the sugya. That's what I... Let me teach you about the Badei HaShulchan. The Badei HaShulchan learns the way we teach. Every word in the Shulchan... One word, he'll explain me that word. I like that. That's what I want. I want a posek who explains to me the text. And then from the text he goes into the Gemaras on the sides, and then on the bottom he goes into the mareh mekomos. I see what's text, what's explanation, what's mareh mekomos. But if you do it the way I'm doing it, it's very nice. It's a nice shiur. It's very good. I'm not saying the Badei HaShulchan is not just the same, which a lot of people do because they נבטל everything under the sun. There's nothing you can do about that. Okay, take the Badei HaShulchan and read. Go ahead. I like people who worked hard on the text, on the Gemaras, and the Rishonim. That's what I like. And those are people I don't... He also, every word, the Shevet HaLevi, if you notice, every word, he has a piece on every word. I don't know if you noticed that. Every word. Let's talk about this word. Read it, Nu. You saw about the... The what? What's wrong? You're gonna be in a bad mood? Come on, you're going to a wedding tonight. That would be... that's got a reason to be in a bad mood. Traveling for nine hours to a wedding? Three hours each way. Six hours. Get up, get up and read. Get up and read. Get up, get up. Read it. Hameid al raglecha, like the Gemara says over there with Reb Eliezer, you made him come to Yom Kippur. Okay, go ahead, yeah. Come on, call the guy and unscrew it and let's go. Says it? Says. Okay, so what's your shaila? You should come and say, Rav Cohen, you're an am ha'aretz. What should I tell you? I can't fight with people. He's much bigger than me. I can't fight with...

I don't know. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You have to know the system. First of all, truthfully, it would all depend on the person and the matzav, and there's so many things that go through my mind when a guy stops me. You can't answer. It's not a fair question. Forget about it. Are you an Eretz Yisroel? Okay, so your brother I'm sure is not asking me. Your brother asked me or you asked me? I'm asking for him. Don't ask. He's not— I believe your brother asked you. If you put mechitzah between two beds, it's also like headboard. It's calling what I'm saying. What do you mean if you put a mechitzah between two beds? It's two beds. It's not connected. One board between two beds. So again, it's not connected. How is it connected? It's connected through the board. No, it's not connected. Connected. It's not connected to the board. No, again, l'maaseh, even if the bed is not mechubar to the keresh, the keresh is only there as a yofi. Then it's mutar. It would be mutar. Yeah. So how often do we find that it is mechubar? All the time. Now let's go back. It's not mechubar. It's not mechubar. Even if it is, one bed is. It's probably done on purpose, that's it. Most of the time it's mechubar, so it's one. Okay, okay. Could anybody discuss the beds they bought it somewhere else at a different time? Okay, let's go back. Now, how much is not called nogeia zu bazu? So the truth is that in Shulchan Aruch it says just not nogeis, right? Doesn't touch, doesn't touch. So all you have to do is just make sure they don't touch, right? So we know that there's Acharonim who write about it. Now, before we get to the Chochmah Shirei of the shiurim of how you're supposed to push the beds away, I want to go into the top. If the problem is that it's nira k'mitachtas, right? So as long as there's any separation, it's not mitachtas. I mean, you see that it's not the same bed, right? But if it has to do with hergel, so you're going to tell me that the quarter of an inch will make a difference of hergel and not hergel? You know that the—I'm saying, right? Takif yitzrei. Huh? I can't help you, but that's what it says. That's true. I mean, the way I'm saying, the way I'm making the gedarim, if it's about nira, so as long as it doesn't look like the same bed. If it's about hergel, then the pshat is that any shinui from the norm is good enough. Any shinui from the norm, whatever I'm saying, it's not the way you normally have the beds together. And the third nekudah is, if it's about takif yitzrei, then it would have to be like husband side, wife side. It has to be like two different sides. That's the way I would break up the halacha. Now, let's talk l'maaseh the shiur. So there's takanas Levov. I don't know if you know about takanas Levov. They got together, Rabbanim, there was a big asifah, and they said, There's no shiur in the Shulchan Aruch. What are we going to do now? So they came and said there has to be an amah in between. How much is an amah? So there's 18 inches, 20 inches, 22 inches, 24 inches, 26 inches. So I guess in Bnei Brak, 26 inches, and that's cool, because the machmir would be... Huh? We'll discuss that, so let's discuss. Now, the Arizal, ... the poskim, the Arizal said as long as the blankets don't touch. Now, I don't know if that's some kind of Kabbalah stuff. The Kav HaYashar brings down that there was a guy that had a dream. You know about it, the Kav HaYashar? Who mentions the Kav HaYashar? Oh, he's going to be... He knows that. They knew everything. He's... Oh, they do mention that in the story. They bring down a story, a guy had a bad dream, his feet and the blankets and the... Okay, he had a dream that... What was the dream? That something happened to him, and he went to the rav, and the rav says, Because your feet, the blankets were touching your wife, and I don't know, something. It has to be blankets, okay? Now, Kav HaYashar, it's a very famous... Whenever you want to scare a guy, you just throw Kav HaYashar at him, okay? So the Kav HaYashar, Arizal, blankets, all right? Now, so either it's a Kabbalah thing. Either it has to do with Kabbalah. I would say a me'orer devar. Chassid, I would say a me'orer devar.

Beds are not touched. Yeah? It's the nekudah of the beds, or it's the nekudah of the kreivos, sleeping together with your wife. The way I'm learning, it's the kreivos, sleeping with your wife. The blankets are touching, or they could be touching; they don't even touch. It's called together. You see, I see in the sugya here, it's not the touching of the beds per se. It's the lo yishan imo yachad. You know, you can learn this sugya technical beds. It's a bed sugya. Or you can learn this sugya yishan yachad, that they're sleeping together. If it's about sleeping together, then you have to deal about the sleeping together. What's called together? If it's about the beds, then you can play around: yeah beds together, not beds together. What's called beds together? What's called one bed? What's called two beds? Pay attention to what I just told you. We just got down to the root canal. Bed sugya. We just got down to the shoresh, tipul shoresh. You know what tipul shoresh is? We got down to the shoresh. Is it about them sleeping together, or it's about the bed, that they're sleeping in one bed? According to this, if that's called separate, yeah, mechayev. That's what I want to ta'ain. Certain things is not sleeping together. The beds are together, but they're not called sleeping together. The beds are together. Who said the beds are? It's a lo yishan imo b'mita achas. The sugya of noygeis is all because nira kiyachad. Nir b'yachad. It's the nir and the yachad, or is it the beitz? Is the sugya the yachad or is the sugya the beitz? Now with this, I want to say an interesting thing, if I find it. Yeah. Ten, ten, ten, ten. Is ten? Yeah, ten was after seven. One more second. Oh, here it is. They're sleeping on the floor. What are you gonna say, they're sleeping in the same bed? So the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, siman kuf nun gimel, se'if ches, the Birkei Yosef, siman katan zayin, you gotta be very far away from each other, מרחק רב. What does he mean? He looks at it that they're sleeping on the same floor, the same bed. So unless it's king-king size, like I told you, unless it's who knows where, far away, that doesn't look like they're sleeping together, right? Far away. As strangers would sleep far away from each other, right? Then it's okay. I want to tell you a more difficult part. People sleep on the floor together. The mita, for some reason, today makes it a problem. When you have twenty guys, they all sleep next to each other on the floor. Napsacks. What do they call that? Sleeping bags. Sleeping bags. That's not called yoshenim yachad yachad. Huh? What? That's what I'm trying to tell you. It's talui in how you learn. If you learn Yitzchak, that's what he's saying, go sleep on the other side of the room. Fine. If you learn, it's sleeping as a husband and wife, right? That's not a sugya. Not a sugya. She should sleep on the one side of the room? Of the room. No, head to the toes, not... You mean head to... or toe to toe? This, rabosai, is the sugya, lanias daiti, of lo yishan. Okay.