Hilchos Kesamim: When a Woman and a Rav Disagree About a Psak—Ne’emanus and Eid Mipi Eid

Transcript

Amrah, פלוני חכם, טהר לי כסם. She said, פלוני חכם, טהר לי כסם. Shaila number one: kesem? Only kesem? Kesem is not d'rabbanan. What happens if she says, פלוני טהר לי? Is that regular dam, that it's not dam nidah, it's like a bedikah in the rechem, right? Why kesem? So there's a teshuvas Rama. There's a teshuvas Rama that all the poskim bring down. The Terumas HaDeshen speaks about it. It's possible that it's only, אמר פלוני חכם טהר לי כסם, by d'rabbanan. Hachacham omer shehi meshakeres; hachacham ne'eman, but if it would be a d'oraisa, there's a teshuvas—excuse me—there's a teshuvas Rama that on a d'rabbanan she's ne'eman keneged the chacham. The question is, so why did he say the word kesem? Again, it says kesem. Kesem is mashma even on a kesem, even on a d'rabbanan issue. It's not true. The Rama himself, l'choira, seems to write that if it's the woman against the rav on a d'rabbanan, the woman is ne'eman. So what do you do with this Rama? Question number one. Question number two: Amrah, she said, פלוני חכם טהר לי כסם. Kesem zeh, or kesem in general? Is it a story that the husband found the kesem, the husband knows about a kesem, and she comes and claims, by the way, this kesem was already tahor. Or the story is that she came out of nowhere. She tells him a story, I had a kesem and it was tehorah. K'ilu he never knew, had this not been from her, he wouldn't even know there was a story. Which is the story? Because first, no, I don't know, chayiv, chayiv. Why? You have a raya? Why? The mashma'us is that. Mashma'us is that in this case it's much worse. Mashma'us is, אמר פלוני חכם, טיהר לי כתם. She didn't say, Kesem is that. טיהר לי כתם. Came and said a story. The implication from the Rama is a story where it's not that he found something and she claims, by the way, it's... The mashma'us is that she was like, כאילו הפה שאסר הפה שהתיר. She was the one who even brought the whole idea. She's saying, by the way, it is a chacham, טיהר. Notice she said the word פלוני חכם, פלוני חכם. Would it be good enough to say, חכם טיהר לי? Or she has to say פלוני חכם? Does she have to give the name, the address of the rabbi? What are you saying? You don't think she has to, so why would she say פלוני חכם? The Rama should have said—he argues with you, machlokes. Maybe write a book, it would be a bestseller. What's the pshat? What's the pshat? פלוני—what do you say? You say פלוני חכם or regular חכם? What's your hara? Let me hear what's bothering you. It happened in Borough Park that way. In Borough Park, the women go. In Bnei Brak, the women go. The men don't even come and speak. And you know why? Go down the pshat. And it's very good for the wife to come. You know why? Because the rav can ask her questions. Yeah. What is the husband? One second, I'll tell—I'll tell my wife. One second. Everybody has to wait on line. One second, people waiting on—one second, one second. Line, wait a half hour, I have to call my wife. Oh, once she's busy with the children, she's busy making the kugel. Okay, one minute, one minute, everybody wait, wait. Tell her to come, I have to ask her a very important question. Tuva poiskim, that the right way to do it is for the wife to come. That's what you see here. Ad kedei kach that the husband didn't even know. Yes. The aksa nachon. That's the way it was done in the old days. The rabbis—and now, today it's different. Why is it today different? A few reasons. First of all, the women don't get out of the house for the... Second of all, she feels sometimes very uncomfortable waiting on line. You don't have locals for her to go to. Exactly. It's a little different. The whole thing is a little different, you know what I mean? The matziv, nishtanu hamatziv, but could be l'chatchila it's better for wife, though. Much, much better. Okay. Anyways, amar ploni chacham, tirli kesef. So the word ploni, you say it's lav davka, and Rafi says it's davka. The other way around. You say the other way around? You say lav davka, and he says davka. Okay.

And the chacham oimer, and the chacham, the chacham. Now let's say, according to you, Rafi, that it's not, or which one says that it's lav davka פלוני חכם. So then how did אמר החכם? It's only for the story. Ah, the rabbi telling the story. Okay. The chacham oimer, the chacham says, shehi meshakeres, that she's lying, that she is lying. The chacham said that she is lying. So what was the story? You went to speak to the chacham, that's what happened? Right. But one second, should you go ask the rabban? No. You went to the rabbi and said, God, I'm sorry, but what happened today? You bumped into the rav, and the rav is saying, but I think that's a strange thing, because why would the rav tell her that? I don't know which rav discussed after psak halacha. It's not נגמר afterwards anymore. I don't know what the story is. Why would they come into a conversation? Meshakeres, not meshakeres. What was the story? It doesn't make sense. Yeah. I thought that there's a story here, that he's coming to double-check on her. I would like to know. You see, this is something maybe nobody talks about, but I would like to talk about it. What is the story? I don't know the story. Why? Maybe he doesn't trust her. Maybe that's where the story is. Is there an afkamina? Is there an afkamina if, let's say, she says, פלוני חכם פיר לי כסף, and he's not a hundred percent sure because he has doubts about the whole thing. The chacham oimer shehi meshakeres, and the chacham says she's meshakeres. Now you're writing all these questions down. You have to pasken these shailas. No, you don't have to pasken these shailas. I think you should pasken. I want to know. Could be, but I'm asking, is it the pshat, you have to bump into him and he comes and says, By the way, your wife was here? I don't know story. The lesson says v'sakanah... I don't know. I don't know which rabbi discussed the aftershailah of pirud. You should either remember that. I'll tell you, when they come to me, I don't remember the next minute that they were there. I don't remember. It's not negea; it's irrelevant. It's history. You go next. I don't know. I don't know, and I don't remember. I don't talk to hundreds of... What would be if the other way around? What would be if the husband came and said all this, you hear? I never said, but it doesn't say ketem. It's ketem. Who has ketem? Wait, wait, wait. Oh, you see, my teeth is glowing. Chacham, tirli ketem. Yeah, ketem's there. Yeah. You got it from here. Oh, you thought I got it from there? No, I was... I like it. I like it. I like it. I feel this stuff. You see that I say good, you see? You see? I don't have any. I'm just reading, I'm reading. Ketem, ketem's there. I want to know. What's the difference if it's here or here? Well, what's the difference if it's here? I think there's a very big nafka mina. I hold this. I know. You'll soon see it. As soon as you see how I paint you this, every seif by me is a painting. It's a new painting. And I fill in. You know how you do it? Listen how you do it. You get the details, and then you fill in the whole thing. Color in the part. So what is it? Is it tier or hister? I think there's a very ... We'll soon see. And then I want to know, let's say they find him to be a liar. What happens? Let's say he comes back, the rav. The rav says that it's good, and then they find out that the rav said the opposite. And the rav says the opposite. Is that the same halacha? Next question. He tells her she's meshakeres. What happens if it's not that he tells her she's meshakeres, but the situation shows that she's meshakeres? Peirush: if the rav was matir, if the rav looks and he goes, You have a ... Is that the same thing? Does it have to be you say yes and I say no? Or you could say yes and I say I don't know? Oh, it's very ... sure. Oh, maybe no. You have to know what the sugya is. I'm painting a picture here. What's the sugya? I love it, I love it, I love it. Beautiful stuff.

Stop, stop. You know what I'm asking? Pashut shayla. He taina she's meshakeres. When she's not taining, she doesn't know if it's true. When I'm in a case where she's a bari v'shema, maybe I just don't remember the whole story. I mean, I don't remember being here. I mean, I'm not going to tell you, I said the opposite. Is that good enough? So halacha is, hachacham ne'eman. Does it say that the isha is not ne'eman, or does it say that the chacham is ne'eman? Is it about the isha losing her ne'emanus, or is it about the chacham saying eidus against? Hachacham ne'eman. The chacham is ne'eman, u'temei'ah hi, and she's temei'ah. Now let's do the Taz. Wow, what a big long Taz. Big long Taz. No, Taz is moving. Taz on the Rama. Wait a minute, on the Rama. This Taz, this Taz. Nir'eh li, dafka hachacham atzmo, kivan shehi someches alav. Dafka the chacham. Peirus, if an eid would come and say that it's not true, then it wouldn't be. Now what is this eid saying? Is the eid saying that she never went to the rav, or is the eid saying, I was there when the rav was matir and he never said? Asar lah. What's the words again? Yeah, the eid echad me'eid shelo asar lah eino ne'eman, because I know the olam's excited, that's what I'm doing. It's a little bit calm down. V'hishtakach shehi someches alav, v'hishtakach she... Ma she'ein kein, ein hachacham lefaneinu, v'eid echad me'id shehachacham asalah, eino ne'eman. Right? So what is the me'eid? This eidus is not that she's lying about the story, but it's about the psak itself. He's me'id shehachacham asah. Now what's the sevara that she soimeches alav, v'nishtakach sheker? What does that mean? Does that mean that she's found to be a liar because, k'ilu, there's a hole in her word? Or I could tell you a lomdish svara, which I want you to pay close attention. Ready? What she's claiming is not mutar asur. She's claiming what he said, but he's saying he never said it. Is the ta'ichi nishtakach sheker, she was caught in a dirty lie, and therefore she's not ne'eman anymore? Or she never says anything anyway. All she's saying is, I'm saying what he said, but he's telling me he never said that. Look at the lashon: shehi soimeches alav. What do you mean, shehi soimeches? Just say that you found it's not true; you found that it's not so. What do you mean, shehi soimeches? Either you come and say it's based on him, and you see she's a liar. There's a re'iyah in what she's saying. It's not so much that. She's claiming he said, but he's saying what he said, right? So she can't have more to say than what he said, right? It's not that nishtakach sheker, that there's a re'iyah. Let the eid come and say that I saw this, right? Chacham comes and says, yeah, but it's not true. You have to just say, it's beautiful. It's such a beautiful vort, if you think about it. And it all makes an afkamina how you learn the sugya. Is the pshat we found a loophole that she's lying, or her whole ne'emonus is just to say that he said. Meaning, I'm not saying me, I'm just saying what he did, but he's telling what he did, so what's the difference? Al kerach hachi, let me tell me what you said. The first thing comes and says, I went to a rav, and the rav said it's mutar. So she's saying it's mutar, or she just claims that the rav is saying that? That's not what she just said. No. It's two different things. She's claiming a rav said. She just said. Even if the pshat is, even if the taich is that she claims that it's mutar, no. I'll give you an example. The same way you go to the mikveh, she's ne'eman to say, Tavalti. Of course, she's ne'eman to say. So she's ne'eman to say, I went to the rav. Haidilma, the ne'emonus is not to say she's tahorah.

But the ne'emanus is on the ma'aseh shehu hitir li. I went to a chacham, and chacham ploni hitir li, chacham ploni hitir li. So I'm not saying anything. I say nothing. I don't know. I'm not—I don't know if I'm tahor. I'm just saying that he said I'm tahor and he's hitir. Is the eidus—I'm saying that I'm mutar because I went to the mikveh and I spoke to the rav. What is the pshat? I'm not saying anything. I don't know. I'm just telling you that he said. You know, let's say we find she's lying. If the pshat is that she's saying it, we found a loophole in what she's saying. Ideally the pshat is she should say him, but he's saying it happened. But it's never she. I'll tell you—let me tell you one step further, you'll understand my issue. If let's say she's the supreme ne'eman. That's the way it is. She's the supreme ne'eman. Would it be an issue that the chacham said not true? No. The only thing you would have to do is punch a hole into her ne'emanus by saying she's a meshakeres. You caught her on a side lie, and therefore the whole thing came. Why can her word go against the chacham? Teilu she's already a woman who was muchzak not tell the truth. If she's a ta'utes, if the ta'utes—not she's a supreme—she has a koach of ne'emanus, and the rav has a koach of his ne'emanus. There's an eidus. And what you're doing is just saying a re'eidus that someone else was hitir. That's all. That's what you're saying. I'm saying eidus that chacham hitzil. Forget what that chacham said, I am—I'm not hitzil b'chas, it's totally. Oh, I know I'm screaming all day today, but don't try to say. What I say is nothing; I have stupidity. He says, Good zach, listen to him. Tell him, I'm listening. Such beautiful Torah. Why should I—I'd rather sit by his shiur. That's talking about davar... Ki koilech arei, Reb Chaim, ki koilech arei u'mareich naveh. Oh, you see, that's a good... loud. Loud. Okay, loud. Okay, the kitzur. Oh, so let's read. Listen carefully. A chacham meimen shehisa mechesa lah, v'hishtakach sheker, that you catch her in a lie, or her whole ne'emanus is just saying over what he said, but he never said. Ma she'ein kein im ein hachacham lefaneinu. Why does the chacham have to be lefaneinu? What do you mean, ein hachacham lefaneinu? You want to ask him. What, who said you have to ask him? Maybe you have to go ask him. How do you know the story? What do you mean, ein hachacham lefaneinu, v'ein hachacham meid shehachacham asa lah. What are you going to ask him? The what? What happens if the eid echad said, and the chacham said that differently? Let's say the eid echad says, I was there, you were matir it, and the chacham says, I wasn't. I'm saying eid, I sat, I sat, and the eid says it's not true. Who do you believe? You know there's a shach about this. Let's say the chacham says, You know what? I was talking matir. Then all of a sudden the eid echad says, What? You're crazy. How is this? What are you saying? Why? Why? The eid echad against the eid echad, no? What? You agree with me, no? But for the taz's mashma, it's only im ein hachacham lefaneinu. Lo yitzu the chacham would be lefaneinu, what would you say, Ilan? Ask the chacham. Anyways, ve'eid echad me'id shehachacham asar, eino ne'eman. ... im kein, hachanami, ein oseh eid ne'emon, machkish oso shehi kishnayim. Kol makom she'eminah Torah, it becomes like eidus. Very interesting. What?

Puh, this is the taz, all the taz. V'su, d'gam linyan nus ein echad ne'eman, loiser. Kan, nir'eh li, v'hachnasas amanas chacham kan hainu davka l'inyan issur, aval l'inyan mamon, kegon l'hafsid ksubaso min hachacham, ne'eman b'sha'ar eid echad. What did he just say? It's not an eid echad. V'nir'eh, l'hachnasas amanas d'chacham kan hainu davka l'inyan issur. Aval l'inyan mamon, kegon l'hafsid ksubaso, meaning let's say they catch her that she's lying on the nidah stuff, and therefore you have— ein hachacham ne'eman yoser misha'ar eid. Oh, so he's ne'eman yoser misha'ar eid. What kind of ne'emanus does he have? I know that she has a special ne'emanus, eminah Torah, but why is the chacham eminah Torah? I didn't know that. Legabei the issur, the chacham has more. It's regular eid echad, no? And therefore, legabei mamon it's not going to work; legabei issur it's going to work. What is that? Huh? I mean, I do know, but it's a peleh, no? You omer on this question. It's good. Elon, you learned this Taz? Not yet. But do you hear what I'm asking? A pashut shaylah. Okay, you're going to ask this shaylah a little bit by the Chazon Ish. Legabei the kesubah, he's not ne'eman. Why? Because it's no different than an eid echad. Legabei the issur, ne'emanus of the kohen—what kind of ne'emanus of the kohen? I didn't know that. Excuse me, the rav. If he's shnei edim on one case, and then—if he's kol makom shemina Torah eid echad, it's eid echad, right? Legabei issur, right, it's good. Legabei mamon, he's a regular eid echad. So what does he mean? I don't want the lashon. She'ein hachacham nema yoser mi... What's the shaylah? Means teach me chiddushim in Hilchos... So what's he teaching me? He's teaching me dinim in Hilchos eid echad. Mamon, mamon, eid echad ne'eman b'mamon, eid echad... What did you just say? What did you just say? I just thought you said something. You just said something I like. What did you just say? L'gabei inyanei issurim, we're relying on him and his psak halachah, so he says something, obviously we're going to trust him, right? He is the one that said it's mutar or asur. Let me ask you another kashya. When you go to a rav to get a heter, right? Maybe you should go to two rabbanim. We get two different opinions every time. I'm not talking about... You should go to two rabbanim. Where does it say you only go to one rav? I don't know either. Mi'ifta ta'it she'being somech on... Again, aseh lecha rav is in the halachah, but if you're being somech on somebody, so it has halachah of eid echad ne'eman b'issurim, period? Then I don't really want to. What does it have, eid echad ne'eman b'issurim and by mamon it's not eid echad, it's mamnis? He's saying something more. Eid hachacham nemanim yoser mi'shar eid echad. He's not ne'eman more than a regular eid. Why? No, because you would have thought that... I thought... You would have thought that... Remember what I said to you? He said meches aleph. You saw that that was coming, right? Yeah, but I don't know if you meant the whole lomdus of it, but this is... I need to credit for it. So you're basically like a regular shivah man today. That's what a true yeshiva guy do today. Shehi meches alav, in hilchos niddah, I believe this is, and I think it's very important for this. She's being samuch on the rav, and she has a... So he's the authority because she's being samuch on him, and therefore in case she's meshakeres, so the ta'ana is, it's his word against her word. She's ne'eman because shfur ne'emanus is his; it's not more. But the... her ne'emanus is him. That's her ne'emanus. Now when it comes to the moment, they don't have this. Because it's... it's only... But he's lying. No, I think the same. But you can't come and tell me that by eid echad is not ne'eman yoser mi'shnei eidim. No, because she's being samuch on him, and he's claiming he never said it. So I'm telling you it's as if she's saying, I was talking. Right.

No, but it's only legabei the isser shebo. The mechanics work. The mechanics work that way. I think what you wanted to say, that the whole din of mamon here comes from the inyan of the ... No. No, because the whole edus, the whole edus is not a mamon edus, for starters. It's an edus shel issur v'heter. I knew it was something. It happens, mamon. And you want to say even—you want to—Ita wants to say it's a chidush, because the mamon is relied here on the issur and heter, and the issur and heter, the chacham is ne'eman, so I'll be ne'eman ... But I don't need a Tosafos for that. That's all over Shas. All over Shas is that you're not ne'eman—not for the issur. For the issur you're ne'eman, and for the mamon you're not ne'eman. It's all over Shas. So what's the problem? He's saying a moredik svara. He's saying that you would think it's more because the ne'emanus of the isha, the eidus isha. That's the chiddush. The chiddush is when she says, Chacham, tehorah לי, it's not chacham, it's me. The safek lah means that she has the right to go to a chacham to verify, and so she's coming to say she's tahorah. That's the svara. And כיון שהיא saying neches alav, and he's saying it's not that way, so there's a problem. So you would say that this would be a problem only legabei kesuvah also. Kamashmalan, legabei kesuvah shetizgabeh ... echad. That's all. There's nothing more than the eid echad. It's only legabei the issur that she's more than the eid echad. She's becoming her own ... or something? What I'm saying is, the isha, the safek lah means she is ne'emanes if she's clean or not. Her ne'emanus is, in certain cases, not a good ne'emanus because she doesn't know what she's talking about. So how could the Torah give her ne'emanus? And the teretz is, her ne'emanus is that she went to the chacham. And if the chacham is metaher, so her nemanus is that she's tahor because of that. It's like she's saying, tavalti. What? I don't know. She's saying, or maybe not that way. I mean, that's the two sides. I want to know if when she claims the chacham said—what is she saying? The chacham is matir me, or the taich is the chacham said tahorani. That's what I think is going on over here: hitir, tahor; hitir, tehorah. It's not hitir. It's not the chacham. She doesn't need the heter of a chacham. She's mutar because she went to the chacham. The chacham said it's tahor. Two. It says there's two girsaos. I'm trying to tell you there's two girsaos. What is she claiming? She's claiming the chacham was matir me, or she's claiming the chacham—I showed it to the chacham and the expert told me it's not a bad marah, and therefore I'm tahor. What's wrong? You did not—did you repeat it? Did you say—could you? But he denied it later on. Not understanding. Let me say it again. He denied it later on. Let me start again. I asked you a simple question. When a person goes to the rav and he says, I have a kesem, what do you say about this kesem? She comes back to tell her husband the chacham said that it's tahor. What is she saying? That the chacham—she's saying eidus about a chacham? Is that what is going on here? She's saying eidus about a chacham? Or she's not even doing that. She's saying about herself, I'm tahorah. I went to the chacham. He told me what this kesem is, me'eilah I'm tahorah. What would be the nafka mina? Let's say the rav comes and says, I never said it. So is it eid echad k'neged eid echad? Is that what's going on over here? Is this the eid, the kohen—I keep on saying the kohen—the rav, is it the rav against her? So it's eid echad k'neged eid echad. So then we have to have a special thing, say, because she's a liar. You see she's lying. You see, you caught her in a lie, so meila she's not ne'eman anymore. Or the ta'anis is all her whole ne'emonus is that he said it. It's not two people; she's him. He's her, I'm sorry, he's her. What he's saying is, I'm telling—I'm tahor based on his word, but say it not that way. Let's finish. Is the sugya here rav against her? That's my question. Or is the sugya, you are the one who's saying over that the rav said it, but the rav never said it, so there's nothing to talk about. Okay, let's go a little further now. In Yevamos, second perek, the what? Second perek one.

That's what was discussed. That's where I think the second shak comes from. Okay, so let's see now the shak. Hechacham ne'eman, ayin b'Ran, shekasav b'shem haRamban, hata'am shekiblu shekein hadin b'chol eid mipi eid. It's like this in every eid mipi eid. Bo harishon v'kafar, ein ha'sheni ha'omer mishmo ne'eman. V'ayin b'teshuvas haRav ... What's the chiddush? Maybe it has nothing to do with eid mipi eid. That's why you need a kabbalah. Maybe it has nothing to do with eid mipi eid. Maybe it has to do with, since she is him, so the ne'emanus is him. This is not about eid mipi eid. No. No, no, no. Im bo harishon v'kafar, ein ha'sheni ha'omer mishmo ne'eman. You're telling me that I said mutar; I'm telling you I never said it. So you could come and see there's a tremendous chiddush. You know why you're ne'eman? Because the safek. Her safek is mechayev that she be ma'amin the rav. Now it's a rav k'neged the safek. The heinu, what happens if an eid echad is makdish her directly? Let's say she comes and says, I'm a nidah, or I'm not a nidah, and an eid echad says, What do you mean? Let's say an isha says, I'm telling you you are. What would be in such a case? What happens if the eid echad is makdish her directly? Yeah. And the eid is makdish her directly. Not the rav. Forget about the rav. An eid אחד is makdish her directly. She would be ne'eman. She's safeklah. The rav is ne'eman because of a safeklah. That's what the Shach is saying, that it's not that way. That there's a kabbalah, and he doesn't remain any different than an eid אחד. Mimeila, if an eid אחד has one eid against saying bishmai, we don't believe. That's the kabbalah. Otherwise, what do you need a kabbalah for? That's what it says here. The chiddush is that this becomes a regular parsha of eidus. Pashut it doesn't. The Taz is not muchrach that itself. The Taz could be learning that it's part of her ne'emonus, that the Rav should say. Yeah? You want to see what I just said? Okay. So let me go through now the halachos inside, and we'll see what's negea. We spoke about the chiluk between the reisha and the seifa, that she would be ne'eman according to one side on a derabbanan against the rav. Now what would be the sevara in that? What would be the sevara that she'd be ne'eman by a derabbanan? What's pshat in the Rama? What's בכלל the din in the Rama, right? So there's a whole she'eilah, kesem. So kesem could be lav davka, the kreisi u'pleisi, right? Toras Shlomim brings it down that it's lav davka. Okay. There's a kesem b'hargasha. There's a whole ra'ayon acharonim. What do you mean by—what would be the reason by a derabbanan? That she would be ne'eman keneged the Rav. The Rav is saying, I never said it, so what could she be ne'eman about? Right. And her... but the Rav is saying, I never said it, so what are you talking about? What are you saying? ... The Rabbanan... How is that a safek? What is ne'eman? It doesn't need to say it's a difference. It just doesn't say... There's more. Look at the end of the Torahs HaShlamim. The end, the end of se'if chet. ... l'inyan issur d'Rabbanan, yesh lomar d'ein hachacham harishon ne'eman, v'hu neged mashma'os haRav Karo. Right? The Rav says differently here. ... b'mefurash b'siman קצד... ... So the point of the teretz is we don't need mamash kesem, we need a kesem hargasha, we need a kesem made al bodik, it's called a kesem... place, acharonim, a kesem doesn't need kesem.

Yeah. Yes. That's right. That's right. That's right. If the pshat she has a ne'eman. If the pshat is she has a ne'eman, right? So the truth is he has nothing against her. There's nothing to discuss. It really begins with her. So it's shayach that even if he comes and says different, so what's he saying? He's saying what, that I'm telling you you're not telling the truth? So klal of d'rabbanan, you could say it's like an eid against an eid. And since it's only d'rabbanan, so we'll say eid echad b'hachchasha by d'rabbanan we make one. But if you learn that she's not saying—what is she? She's just saying over what he said. What's the chazakas d'rabbanan? How could there be a chiluk? If the pshat is that she herself is just saying over what he said, so what—her whole ne'emanus is him, and he's saying he didn't say it. Well, what's the—what? But he says, I never said it. But if you learn it becomes like an eid echad b'hachchasha, he says and he says, so could be eid echad b'hachchasha, like the Shach says, eid mepi eid, then by d'rabbanan we'll make one. Right. Otherwise there's nothing what to talk about. But what's the chiluk d'rabbanan d'Oraisa? I'm telling you... Like, I'm not talking about the shailah. Shailah just tells me A to B. Right, right, right. I'm making nafka mina. See, they didn't speak about it. I'm just saying, l'choira there could be a nafka mina. I didn't say this. I didn't say that. I'm saying lomdus. I didn't say—I'm just telling you lomdus, how it works. A and B. The first aid comes, I never said it. The second—since you're an aid, so it's aid against aid, so it could be a drabbanan, eid echad b'davar, we'll be meikel in such a case. But if the ta'anis, there is—she's not, it's all she's could just say over what he says, so how could there be he's saying I didn't say it and still she's ne'eman? What are you ne'eman exactly? You're ne'eman to—the rav is a liar? That's what you're ne'eman to say? What does ne'emanות exactly? If she says I'm tahor, and he says no, you're not tahor, so then it's aid against aid. It could be a drabbanan, we'll be meikel in such a case. But if the ta'anis, she has nothing to say, what does she—she just repeats over what he says, so what are you repeating, that you're a liar because yesterday you changed your mind? She could claim the rav is meshuga and he changed his mind. When she's makhish the rav, what is she saying, that the rav is a liar? I want to know what the story is. The rav, he has, what do you call, old times he doesn't remember four minutes from the next. What's her claim, that the rav is a liar? Let's say she's saying the tahor, and she's saying meshakeres, and there's a tzad that we'll believe her in a drabbanan. Believe her that what, the rav is a liar? Or that the rav made a mistake, maybe it's a safek, and on a safek in drabbanan l'kula, maybe that's what it is. Maybe it's a safek, right? Since he doesn't remember, so it turns into a safek and a safek drabbanan l'kula. Otherwise, I mean, I want to know what the story is. You have the right to come and say, Rabbanim, a lawyer? Is that what your nemanus is? I don't get the story. How could the rabbi makeh? What is makeh? You forgot some emeles stuff. If it's a safek, some emeles stuff, Rabbanim, maybe. Or dilma, or the pshat is maket. Your whole nemanus is him. Your whole nemanus is him. You can't be ne'eman more than what he said. Let me tell you a few more points. That's right. That's right, I was medayek. He's just saying, What's the nafka mina? What's the nafka mina? Let's say, come to the thing, and the rab says, I don't remember about the marah, but she was never by me. I don't know about the marah, but she wasn't by me. Is that good enough? That's what I thought. I'm telling you this shayla. Is the issue the marah? What happened? Huh? Finished? Huh? What? Baruch, what happened to the shiur? No more? Finished? You don't understand what I'm saying? Why?

Sit down, I'll explain. Now, what mincha? What do you want mincha? There's nobody here who needs mincha. Who needs mincha? You need to learn. What's mincha? Minchas erev, maaseh kapai. Sit down and that's all. Remember in the good old days of yeshiva, they didn't even know there was such a thing called mincha. You have to tell them, by the way, it's mincha time. Who remembers mincha? You should be so involved in learning you shouldn't remember mincha. If you have the minute to stop learning, oh, by the way, I had Rabbein. You had to drag them away from the Gemara. You had to drag them away. And they would still, one more second, one more, one more, and ask the kashya. I'm not telling you it should be like that, but at least don't find it early before we start mincha. Okay? Don't worry about it. One thirty. One thirty. One more minute. Give me one more minute to explain this guy, and we'll stop mincha. I see the other shiur is not finished yet either. The other shiur is not finished. Oh, yeah, here we go. Okay, listen carefully. My question is: is an eid echad arguing? Is the rav arguing with the woman? Is that what's going on here? Or the woman has nothing more than what the rav says when it comes to a keses? There's no woman and the rav. The woman knows nothing, so what's the teretz? So her teretz is that she knows to ask the rav, so then she's a man d'amar after she asks the rav. Idilma, men becomes the rav's ne'eman. The safra becomes the rav's ne'eman. That's the ... The heinu, what happens if the rav says, I don't know, I don't anything about the maareh, but I know she wasn't buying. No, that's a real eid keneged eid, you know that? Mashenkin if you would come and say about the maareh that it's tahor, it's tamei, and I'm telling you she's meshakeres, I said that it's tahor. That's about the maareh, something else. Is the sugya she's a liar, or is the sugya that the rav is saying opposite her and the woman's a liar? We'll continue tomorrow. Did I explain it better?