Reiyah Machmas Tashmish: A Din of Vestos or an Independent Chashash Niddah?

Transcript

The Gemara, daf samech hei amud aleph, is where this din of ro'eh machmas tashmish comes from. Let's read the Gemara a little bit. Something else need a rag. Yeah. Yeah. So the sugya of ro'eh machmas tashmish is daf samech hei amud beis. Susama. Most of the halachos that we find in the Shulchan Aruch, more or less in the Gemara, we'll discuss. Tzad pachok, tzad yoter, but more or less it's here. Then the Gemara speaks about a bedikah, how are you supposed to check. Then the Gemara says, Tivli b'biah shlishis, or b'halarisha, okay. How about the biah rishonah shel baal shlishi, lefi she'ein kol hakochos shavos. Then the Gemara brings a story. Chaida soyel l'kamei d'Rav. Amalei, l'avda. Zil ba'asa, adlbaasa, v'nafal mimena cheres dam. Amar Rebbe, nisrapa zois. She got healed. Nisrapa zois, interesting lashon, she got healed. Healed. Nisrapa, she got healed. The Gemara says that she saw and then she didn't see, so nisrapa, she got healed. Chaida soy sheroya dam machmas tashmish, and then she got scared. Kitzur, the Gemara says, Amar Rebbe, nisrapa zois. She got healed. Then the Gemara says another story. Chaida soy l'kamei d'Mar Shmuel. Amalei, Rav Dimi bar Yosef, zil ba'asa azal ba'asa v'lo nafal mimena v'lo מידי. Amar Shmuel, zu me'alev v'nofetes. This one gathers blood and it comes out b'shaas the tashmish. Me'alev v'nofetes, ein lah takanah. Okay. So there's interesting language here in the Gemara, interesting language. What's the two interesting languages in the Gemara? The first thing is that it's shayach a lashon of ripui, heal. It has to do with when it gets better, it's called heal, this rapazos. Also, it's mashma in the Gemara that haro'eh machmas tashmish has to do with the fact that the blood accumulates in this woman, and therefore b'shas tashmish, bursts out, comes out. These are the two things that you see from the Gemara. We'll soon see why this is so important. Al kol panim, the Ran, the Ran, very important over here. Ran says, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, oh, says the Ran like this. Okay. What's your question? What's your question?

Okay. I wish you could help. Okay. You know what? We'll do this afterwards. Okay. Every רואה מחמת תשמיש is the reason why you can't live with this woman, chashash niddah d'Oraisa, or it has to do with derabbanan. Yainus, what do you say? Isha ro'ah machmas tashmish, is it issur mid'Oraisa or is it issur miderabbanan? Chashash d'Oraisa? You say it's derabbanan. Where do you see in the Torah? Well, you're not allowed to live with a niddah. This woman might become a niddah. Right, but you know that b'shaas ma'aseh, when you live with her, you're causing her to be a niddah. So you have a chazakah, chazakah d'Oraisa, no? For ma'aseh niddah is d'Oraisa, so the chashash is d'Oraisa. That's what you say, right? Right. You're basing it on anybody's information? I'm speculating. Okay, so what do you say? What do you think? Is it d'Oraisa or is it derabbanan? Very interesting. So let me just tell you the information. The Noidah B'Yehuda, the Noidah B'Yehuda discusses this shaila: is it de'oraisa or derabbanan in siman samach aleph? Says the Noidah B'Yehuda, it's no question about it that it's only derabbanan. The girsa? No. Or even the peirush, the whole halacha, it's only derabbanan. Yeah? Only derabbanan. That's what you said? Like, kiveiger holds like that, Davnei Nezer holds like that, all the Gedolei Acharonim say this, that it's only derabbanan. The Beis Meir— What's the reason? Why? So if you read the teshuva properly, which is what we're going to get to soon, vestes ad rabbanan. So different vestes? We pasken vestes derabbanan, so how can it be different than vestes? Yeah, but chashmish is seeing blood is de'oraisa. Vestes, yeah, fine, vestes is derabbanan. Say this. Who cares? The Noidah B'Yehuda himself— Tahiris, tahiris, tahiris, tahiris. You're lucky that you got me on a day that I had no food and no coffee and no sleep, and so you guys are going to get the upper hand on me today. We can discuss all this. What do you think we're going to— We'll get to all this. Just keep in mind the lashon Gemara. Rafi saw the lashon Gemara: Gemara, nisrapa, she got healed. And also, how does it work? It's memaleh v'nofetes, which means she fills up like a balloon, and the minute you touch— you know, if you have a balloon, you know what happens when you give it a pink? It just bursts out. That's the Gemara. The Gemara says memaleh v'nofetes. Those are the two things we see in the Gemara. Okay, so the Raivid this says, this is only derabbanan. The me'ayer, the lechem mishneh. That's right. This should much, much be machmir; it should be over here. Okay, yeah, stam, right, stam, but you don't know for sure. That's the pshat in veses derabbanan; it's no different than veses. Now, listen here. There's no—it's just the way you see it being brought down. To be choshesh for veses right before the zman, but the regular din of veses derabbanan. Okay, listen here. Ready? Okay, now. So what's the machlokes? What are the arguments? One says that prisha, one says that this is halacha d'Oraisa, and the other one says it's halacha of derabbanan. What's the machlokes? L'choira, I would say a cheshbon like this.

What they're arguing is it didn't invest. Or maybe a ro'eh machmas tashmish is not a din of vestes. What is a vest? Vest is the orech is supposed to come. Mashenkein over here, it's not about the orech supposed to come, but it's the orech that you bring. There's an orech that you could await, and there's an orech that you're driving, driving, you're picking up at the bus station. So vestes, meaning, like, and mamish the sevara that he said: one is supposed to come, and one you're bringing, mamish l'hedia, yadayim, your own two hands. Therefore it's not just vestes; it's worse than vestes. What would be after you're a ro'eh machmas tashmish, then you're kovea vest? Let's say you're a ro'eh machmas tashmish. The whole problem is when she does a vestes kavua. What's the shaylah? If you learn like the Noda BiYehuda, that it has to be vestes, and vestes is derabbanan, so if she's kovea a different vest, even her regular vest will be oker her old vest. That's what takke the Noda BiYehuda paskens, that if she's kovea vest after she's a ro'eh machmas tashmish, eino chanami. But doesn't she have to divorce already? What? So she did. But isn't there a chiyuv from tolei divorce? What's all that about? Tolei divorce. Oh, you can wait two years. Or maybe in between she was kovea different vest. Again, but she saw... Then within those times, she saw on Sunday machmas tashmish. Two weeks later she saw again. No, and then two weeks later she sawדם, and then she saw again tashmish, and then... Right, right, right. So that's oiker the machmas tashmish? Really? That's right. I thought it means three times having tashmish. No, read it. No, that's the case. If she would be oiker a different vest as a niddah yehudah, if she has a different vest, this would be oiker this vest. What's the reason? Because once she has a regular vest, then this is not her vest. It's a chiddush. But according to the Beis Meir that has not to do vestes, savadi you'd still have the problem. What would be in a case of safek? A suffix. You don't know if she's a ro'ah machmas tashmish. If you learn that it has to do with deRabbanan, then ein hachi nami, the safek deRabbanan l'kula. But if it's deOraisa, you would say what? Safek deOraisa l'chumra. Let's read now the Rambam. I'm going to just point out this Rambam. Hagah: Yesh omrim she'ein anu beki'in eizeh mikri machmas tashmish, v'ein beki'in b'shiur hanizkar. V'lachein, kol shero'ah gimel pa'amim סמוך לתשמיש, mikri l'didan machmas tashmish. The Nesher Abba. Okay? You're not beki'in. We don't know. So it's a safek. Why don't we just say safek d'rabbanan l'kula, and that's all? Why don't you just say safek d'rabbanan l'kula? Again, we just said that whenever you're a safek, if you're a ra'uy machmas tashmish. According to the... you don't know. You're not sure. You're not sure. You're not sure if she's married to her, you don't know who she is. You don't know how long the... should be after tashmish, two minutes, thirty seconds, five minutes. You don't know if she's a ra'uy machmas tashmish. Okay, let me ask you a different question. Maybe, maybe it's not min ha'makor. Maybe it's min ha... She has... I mean, we're going to soon learn this, that according to some shitos, the problem is that she has very weak vessels, blood vessels, right? You know that we're going to learn this, right? How do you know where the weak blood vessels are? Are they in the makor or the minatzdadim? I didn't say you know. I said you don't know. Again, she has weak blood vessels, right?

How do you know where her weak blood vessels? Maybe her weak blood vessels are in the womb. Today we know there's a way to check. I'm saying, let's say if there's no way to check. Oh, shvaferes. Let's do the Rambam on that. I wanted to show you this from the Rambam. The Chavos Daas asked this for a question. You know what the Chavos Daas wants to know? How does shvaferes ever help you? How does shvaferes ever help you? Maybe it's from the... What does the shvaferes do for you? You check. Oh, you check. You know how to do it. I didn't know it could be done. Oh, what does the... say? You put Q-tips on the shvaferes. And it doesn't touch the walls on the side, never. See, if it's blood on the Q-tip, so it's... through the tube. You should be on the tip. You should see blood on the tip, not on the side. Let's do the Rambam on this halacha. Let's see the Rambam. Bring me the Rambam, and we're going to do it inside here. Mishpetei... okay? Vav. Which word? It is... Mayim... mayim... perek daled, Hilchos Issurei Biah. Halacha chaf-beis. Halacha chaf-beis. Yeah. כיצד בודקת עצמה? לידה אם נסתרפה. לאין נסתפק. ... פירשו לתוכה, ומכניסה השפרת למקום שהיא חיה. מכניסת בסך השפרת חי, ומניחה ראשו, כדי דקת אותה שגיע המוח לצוואר הרחם, מוציא המוח. אם נמצא דם על ראש המוח, בידוע שדם שראתה שחתש מן המקור. ואם לא נמצא על המוח כלום, בידוע שדם ראתה מתוך הצדדים. מותרת להינשא לאחר, כמו שביארנו בהלכות. That's only to find out if she's nitrapas. How do you know with the first time, מי שראתה דם משחת תש? I don't understand. How do you— That's the question. I don't understand the sugya over here. I don't understand. ... I want to know, how does she ever be ro'eh machmas tashmish? How do you know? Maybe it's from the side. I don't think you learned this sugya. I'm saying even this husband. I don't understand what you have from this. I'm talking about— It's not again. אישה שראתה דם מחמת תשמיש, מיאבה... right? ... אסור לשמש בעלה. Why? Maybe it's מן הצד. Check. But ela ba, you're gonna come and say that it's a safek, right? Let's see this halacha. I have a problem. I don't get it. I have a problem. Maybe it's been outside. It's a great question. You're talking about the checking. I'm talking about in the issur. Why don't we— Why? Why? Yeah. Maybe she can do this check, but her husband is not obligated. If he wants to be megarsh her without this check, he can. If he wants to leave her...

No, but then you forget about ketem. Without ketem shemur. Since it's a safek. Oh, since it's a safek d'Rabbanan. A safek. I don't think—you said there's the whole sugya of the vestes d'Rabbanan, right? So the chash the second time, even after three times of seeing, is only d'Rabbanan. Even the checking after three times is only d'Rabbanan. So how come—even with the chazakah, what's the chazakah? It's d'Rabbanan. At the end of the day, you're telling me it's only d'Rabbanan. According to the Rambam, the Rishonim, it's only d'Rabbanan. So why is the halacha called—let's say it's minhag Sefardim. This is a very big question. I'm going to answer it eventually. I'm just, so to speak, learning through the sugya, okay? Now, I want to ask you another shaila. What would be if she's a ro'ya machmas tashmish, not dam, but ketamim? Yeah, if she's tamei machmas tashmish. Tamim is only d'Rabbanan, yeah? So then it comes out that it would be different. I don't know. What happens if an isha is a ro'ya machmas tashmish, but not dam, ketamim? How do you know? Maybe the bi'ah—it is. Bring it to the rav and it's a ketem. Yeah, but what determines a ketem? She has no hargashah. But maybe the ba'al is omed on a hargashah. She was confused. Rabbi said the rav determines it's a ketem. The rov determines. It's all the criteria of a ketem, right? But she just doesn't know you think. Maybe it's chal, or maybe not. Maybe it comes... Maybe no. It just said that just the dam is... Darach HaShulchan wants to be meikel. Darach HaShulchan says that since it's only what you call it, since it's only a ketem after re'iyah machmas tashmish, it has to be dam. Isha shera'asa dam, dam, shera'asa dam machmas tashmish. If it's ra'asa ketem, machlokes is different. Go ahead, take it out. Keep cutting you. Go ahead, take it out. ... Darach HaShulchan... ... sheyeh miyad, כמו שכתבנו. ... פעמים ראתה מיד, ופעם שלישית מצאה לאחר זמן, ... ותולה לאחר ... תשמש, ואם לא מצאה אז מותרת. וכן אם בפעם הראשונה ראתה מיד, ופעם השנייה לאחר ... לא ראתה, בטל הפעם הראשונה. ואם אחר כך אפילו ראתה שני פעמים, מותרת עד שתראה פעם שלישית. Ketem, get to the ketem. ודע דכל זה בראייה דם ממש, אבל כשמצאה כתם על חלוקה לאחר תשמיש, ואפילו מצאה כתם, ואפילו הרבה פעמים, אין זה כגדר ... מחמת תשמיש. How does he know this? Hello, he just made it up. He's quoting somebody? What? You should write this down. This is the sugya. You want to know where the sugya is? Right here. They give another crack. What did he say, Rafi? Yonatan, you know what's going on in here? I want you to know who is he quoting. It doesn't make it... this is the way it is. So the truth is, why did I get so excited? Because, you know me, I have to learn the Shulchan Aruch. Isha sherasa dam. Notice it doesn't say, isha shematza dam. Isha sherasa dam. Which means she sees a flow. Re'iyas dam, re'iyah, not a metzias dam or a kesem. Then I thought to myself, ah, they're gonna laugh at my diyukim. I knew, I knew it's gonna be. You know they're gonna laugh at my diyukim. I said, I'm gonna look for it. I started searching. I said, it has to be a re'iyas dam. If it's not a re'iyas dam, then it's a kesem. And if it's a kesem, then it's no good. I'll ask you a kasha. Every time you have a beer, every time you have a beer...

The bi'ah where safek argisha, we don't say the din of ketanah. There's no such thing. So what's he talking about? There's no such metzius. If you see a ketem, if you see a ketem after a bi'ah, you're a regular dam. It's regular dam nida. If you see a ketem after doing a bedikah internally, it's regular dam nida. It's regular dam, not called a ketem. We say that there was hargashah, because a ketem without hargashah is regular re'iyas dam. It's not a ketem. What's he talking about? But so too on a bi'ah, it's the same halachah, same halachah. I mean, you obviously don't know halachah. Halachah is, first of all, bi'ah, we say that the bi'ah itself camouflages, just like the eid. So the question is, how come there's such a sugya called ketem in such a case? What's he talking about? You hear the question? Invaluable, yeah? I'll tell you what I think is going on over here. I'll tell you what I think is going on. I think the shaylah becomes: are we assering as if she's a nida? Are we assering as vestes? In hilchos vestes, some don't make vestes. You can't be kovea vest on ketem. What asers you the next time? Does it aser you the next time chashash nidus? So kol zman there's a real chashash nidus, what's the difference? But if it has to do with oirech, and oirech is not through a kesef. The Moshe has a chiddush that the beginning of every oirech starts with some and within 24 hours, so then that's called one big long oirech. Some don't, because the raya is it's not an oirech, it's a kesef. Oirech is flow. If it's a kesef, so it's not. But if you're worried about nida, believe me there's a nida d'Oraisa. If she has a bi'ah and she finds a kesem, she's a nida d'Oraisa. It is a chashash. So endless l'mita. If the chashash is nida, she needs a... If it has to do with oirech, if it has to do with vestes, some don't make vestes. Let me say it again. Hear it? You listen. What's that? ... Because then it comes out according to him, he still has to divorce her, because it's still real dam nidah. No. Why not? Because it's not vestes. The chashash of nida, because it's halacha vestes makes me... the sugya of prishah סמוך לוסת, vestes is mechadesh to me that he has to divorce. And I'll soon show you where it's nogea. I'll tell you a chiddush nifla. Let me repeat it again, because the truth is I know a lot of... I don't think you're so aware of either, maybe because you didn't prepare it yet, okay? But even those that did prepare it, maybe not, they don't see the whole broad sugya. Let me tell you again. Maybe not, because if it's vest, only drabbanan. The Beis Meir, the Lechem... they all say it has nothing to do with vest; it can't have to do with vest, because it has to do with vestus. And ketem would... No, forget about ketem. I mean, if it has to do with vestus, then it's not a d'raisa; it's only drabbanan. That's right. The Beis Meir learns it's hilchos nida. The Lechem Mishneh, the Lechem Mishneh learns it's hilchos nida. Nida is hilchos vestus. And the chiluk is, it's d'oraisa, d'rabbanan. It's a very big nafka mina. The chiluk would be safek, and that's why I'm asking this Rama. This Rama is being mechadesh to me that even if you're not clear, einon בקיאין, so why'd you make? Go be meikel. So you think it's the... nida? Yes, the sugya is going to be this sugya. I know that a lot of people make this sugya. You know, they make the sugya into how much time after. It's a detail in the sugya. It's not more than a detail. You'll argue five minutes, twenty minutes, fifteen minutes, some before. It's always a problem. This is all Torah. The word סמוך and... you want to know something? But that's not the heart of the sugya. That's not the sugya. That's the detail of it. What the Acharonim are going to...

I'm not wrong. I'm saying it's good; you have to know it. It's what summer. That's what the vision was in this. What do we call summer? You want to know what the heart of the sugya is? Is this the ...? A lav. More important for him to know 15 minutes or 14 minutes or 12 minutes or 11 minutes, because it's whatever it is. It's 11, 12, okay, whatever you decide it is, that's what it is. Again, more, always go to the yesodim. Always go to the yesodim. Remember what the halacha is about. It's about ... And what's beyond that? What's it based on? And the answer is, it's based on—is it about vestes or is it about chashash nida? Vestes is the ... That's the ... It's ... You want to know what the Rav Kaminas are? The Rav Kaminas, pashut. The Rama says, I don't care. I'm mesupak, we don't know, so therefore—who said? I answered a different question. ... it's only a safek. It wouldn't make a difference. ... You have to know what it is. What's the sugya, right? Okay, I'll show you another ... What happens if she's kovea vest through something else already, different vest? Like you, since it's only about vestes, so this is teshuva, right? You could be oiker the dam nida, makpid tashmish because of this vest. Okay, another point, another question. What would be, what would it be if she only sees damim after—so if it's about nida d'Oraisa, she's a nida d'Oraisa, and it wouldn't make a difference. ... What are you talking about? But if it's about vestes, wait a minute. Meaning, oirech vestes? Oh, wait a second. Oirech and vestes is a different sugya. Sugya. It can't be a kesem to be a vest. Not kovea vest on saman, it's not your vest. So you're not a nafka mina. You ready? What happens if she's a skenah who's a mesulekes damim? Skenah who's a mesulekes damim. It can't be vestes, right? What is what? She's married for the fifth time, for the fortieth time, okay? But it's her late husband. It's her fortieth husband, okay? And then she starts seeing dam machmas tashmish. The question is, if it's al vestes, she's a mesulekes damim, she doesn't have vestes. Very nafka mina. She's so old already. Dam. There won't be nafka mina over there. I don't know. You know what? The truth is, if you understood where the final basis of all this comes from, then everything will become even clearer. You ready for the final... I'm trying to tell you that a woman who's mesulekes damim, she has no vestes, it's still shayach the sugya machmas tashmish, and we can't tie it into vestes. So then why is the ketem not good enough to us? That's what I'm asking. According to the... he says not. But why not? Because that's with vestes. This sugya is a ... So then if it's vestes, why is it not safek d'Rabbanan l'kula? Why don't we say this? Question. I answered this question. And then, chanami, according to the most poskim, the nevi'im themselves. The husband shouldn't get divorced. If it's a safek, machmir, safek mutar. He says it's a safek, yeah? But if you say to a woman, if it's kenamed, then she doesn't have to divorce her? So what? If from not nidah, from vestos, then a woman who's kenaham, ... three times, she doesn't have to divorce her? ... d'Rabbanan. ... Again, there's no vestes there. That's not proving that if it's al vestes, shetakah won't need to be divorced. And if it has to do with dam, then there's probably a problem. She's a ro'ah machmas תש, it's a type of nida. She's a ro'ah machmas תש. Let me show you where this ... You know what it is? Hiding the prize. You know what the prize is? What exactly is a ro'ah machmas תש? That's the prize. All right.

That's the chatira. What's the prize? Meaning, what's the—where does it all come from? What's the shoresh of this stuff? Okay. Somebody showed you the lashon of the Gemara, memaleh v'nofeses. You know what memaleh means? What is memaleh? It goes up. What fills up? The dam of her niddus. It's her regular period. We're afraid that her period bursts b'shaas bi'ah. That, to me, is oreich. That's exactly what it is. It's exactly what it is. Memaleh v'nofeses. I don't know why the poskim don't spend time, but that's the Gemara. It's a פירוש גמרא. Memaleh v'nofeses is a mefurash Gemara. There's another nekudah called chimud. Dam chimud. Yeah? Dam chimud. You hear? Dam chimud. And that—pirkei, all the poskim speak about dam chimud, I'm sure you saw it. I have just one ha'arah on the sugya of dam chimud. Very interesting ha'arah. How do you check? You check with a shfoferes. There's no chimud by a shfoferes. Huh? What are you checking for? In case you put it in, how is she supposed to see dam? What does she see dam from? When you stick something in, huh? But again, if there's no chimud, then there's no dam. If the sugya of ashpesh is to do with chimud, so how do you check with a shfoferes? Check before tashmish. Dam chimud, she is excited. How do you know? How do you know? So let them be mishamesh, and then after מידי, after. מידי after you check. I don't know. How do you check the... All right, supposed to check. What's the raya from ...? I don't get it. All right, maybe you understand, I don't know. I know one of the פירושים over there. What he meant is that in the Shach he brings that she checks immediately, and then afterwards she checks again, whatever. One of the פירושים here is that she's meshameshes with a moch dachוק. I found she's an acrobatic woman, but... Oh, so that's how he learns the Shulchan Aruch? No, with the moch dachוק. That's how he explains the sugya Shulchan Aruch? No, no, not Shulchan Aruch. I'm talking about one of the things in the Shach. Because otherwise how do you get the dam chimud? No, it says that she checks twice. It says that if the woman checks immediately, and then she checks after zman again, and the first בדיקה was good and the second one was tamei, then she's not a מחמת תשמיש. The first one was good. This was other different blood. She's tired, you think, also? And one of the פירושים over there, then how can she check twice? If she checked one time, then it's already, you know, it's already... that's it. How can you check immediately after that? The whole time of אחר זמן was past. So it says probably that what she did, she was meshameshes with the moch dachוק, and she took it out, and then... You're not listening. She doesn't care. Sorry, I think... I said I want to make it long. He says in the Shach that he brought the deal: if she checks immediately, and then after zman. First check was good, second check was... Okay. I have to see. What are you quoting, a Shach? I'll look at it. Okay, I'm gonna look at it. I have to look at it. Okay, now, let me show you a little. There's also something called choleh, because you see in the Shra. Now, does the Shra have to do with orech? The Shra has nothing to do with orech. The Shra might be, kitzur, refuah. Refuah has to do with weakness. The Ramban, on the sugya refuah, learns chavatas tashmish, banged up. She gets banged up from the tashmish. Interesting, huh? So, oy basoi, it has nothing to do, rabosai, with orech. See, I want to taina that the two ways on how to learn where it's coming from, we'll be telling the shaila. If you learn that it's regular dam that gets filled up, so then the pshat is it has to do with vestos. But if you learn that it's a new thing called chavatah, it has nothing to do with vestos.

The thing is, you could be kovea a vest for רואה מחמת תשמיש. Not a machmas. In other words, you could be kovea that you have a, not a cycle, but a chazakah for רואה מחמת תשמיש. You understand? You could have a chazakah for רואה מחמת תשמיש, but the רואה מחמת תשמיש never becomes... Okay, we'll stop. What's the answer for what? Do it. Start the sugya. Now we're going to learn the... I'm starting. I'll give you... Is the vest is, the pshat is that it is her vest and you bring it about, or the vest works the other way around, that it's, you're bringing that to come. Here, l'mashal, let's say a woman, let's say a woman has a vest. Let's say a woman has a vest, right? How can we, how can we on a vest which is d'rabbanan, let's be choshesh for a makah? On every vest it's d'rabbanan, let's be choshesh for a makah. On every vest d'rabbanan. Therefore, what is... You don't know, maybe it's a makah. Every single time. If vest is only derabbanan. What I mean to say, I want you to understand there's two things here. There's something called the vest, and there's something to be choshesh for the vest. Which one is this derabbanan? The vest, or to be choshesh for the vest? I don't know. We spoke about this. We mentioned it. Let's say, let's say there could be menatzdad. It's very possible, menatzdad. So even if you hold vest is derabbanan, even if you hold vest is derabbanan, does that mean that the safek of where it comes from is the same thing of the safek that it is? It's not the same safek. In other words, the vest is not a safek in the metzius, derabbanan, but the being choshesh for it is a din derabbanan. Right. It's not a chashash in the vest. The vest is vadai. The chashash that you are choshesh for it and aser, that could be only derabbanan. That's, I think there's a very big chiluk, and that would be the chiluk by Ra'ah machmas tashmish if it has nothing to do with vest. By Ra'ah machmas tashmish that has nothing to do with vest, okay, it would work the other way around. The thing itself is a safek. By vestes d'oraisa—I'm sorry, by vestes derabbanan—the vestes is there, and to be choshesh for it might be a derabbanan. Mashenkein by dam nidah, meaning if you learn that re'iyah makmas tashmish is dam nidah, then even the actual re'iyah becomes a safek.