Hilchos Niddah: Re’iyah Machmas Tashmish, a Doctor’s Ne’emanus, and Refuah

Transcript

Teitzei lisrapei, kuf pei zayin, tes. Teitzei lisrapei. Shehoyah dam machmas tashmish. She wants to heal. She wants to heal herself. Teitzei lisrapei. Tzarich sheyeh kodem shetischazek. It has to be that she wasn't nischazek that she's a ro'iyah machmas tashmish. It has to be before she was already established a ro'iyah machmas tashmish. Aval achar shetischazek, yesh mishtapkim, and mutar lismoch al harofuah, if you can be somech on the refuah, leshamesh achar kach. V'yesh mi shematir. Then there's somebody that's matir. Im amar lo rofei Yisrael nisrapes. A rofei Yisrael says that you weren't nisrapes. First of all, let's see the metzius. Mistapek al harefuah, right? Yesh mishtapkim, and mutar lismoch al harefuah. It doesn't work, it doesn't work. I mean, is it a common medicine? Is this what they call that alternative medicine? There's some doctor out there that's saying he has a psekur. Or it's the standard medicine. I mean, what is the refuah? Aval achar sheyesh, mutar lismoch al harefuah. It doesn't say mutar lismoch al refuos, al harefuah. Harefuah is mashma the standard refuah. And the hainu could be you can't even be somech bichlal on the refuah. If let's say the refuah is baduk umenusah, maybe it doesn't make a difference. When I read this Shulchan Aruch, right away the first thing that comes to my mind is, are we talking about an established, accepted, it's yadua, it's mekubal refuah? I mean, what? And still it's a problem. Or we're talking about alternative medicine. That's shaila number one. Let's see how the Shach brings down the halacha. Yesh mistapkin. Kasav haBach, miu nira, din rofeh ze asur refuah zu l'isha echad קודם shehischazka venisrapa, yecholah isha acheres lismoch alav, af laachar shenischazka b'shalosh pa'amim, umuteres l'shamesh b'paam revi'is lachar harefuah. So the Shach already isn't saying that it's not talking about a baduk umenusah dika refuah, but it's completely new. It's something new. But if it was already used on a different woman, then you can be somech. One woman, that's it. Good enough. Could you imagine they're going to come and say that the medicine—it's, I did research. You know what my research is? I did it on the chan over there. It worked on Chana. That's research. Could you imagine? What was your—what do they call that when they make, when they... When they do testing, huh? No, no, when they test, what? Statistics. Yeah, it's worked on one person. It worked. What's this bach? Kosav ha-bach, kosav ha-bach. That's what I'm saying, but I'm asking you, that's called badikah b'nusa? One other woman got healed with this. This is called badikah b'nusa? That's, I'm saying, that's called badikah. You would take such a medicine? Would you take a medicine that worked on one other person? I don't know anybody would take such medicine. Anyways, kosav ha-bach, miu nira d'mera'ife zeh. And that's a different question that I have. Why does the Bach talk about ro'ife zeh? Talk about refuah זו. Why does the Bach talk about the ro'ife instead of talking about the... I'm going to discuss all this. You see, this is called my world of thinking. When I see something, right away, wait a minute. Are we talking about the ro'ife? Are we talking about the refuah? What's exactly going—what's the issue over here? Miu nira d'mera'ife zeh asur refuah זו. What does ro'ife zeh have to do with anything? Now, if you notice, in the Shulchan Aruch we're mixing the two.

Yesh mistapkim, im mutar listmokh al ha-refuah, v'yesh mi shematim, omer la-rofeh. It's an interesting—I mean, actually it's two different sugyas, no? One sugya is, could refuah, could you be somech on refuah? And the second sugya is, could you be somech on a rofeh that tells you something? Oy dilma, and as zeh is muchach, kach muchach, that it's more about the rofeh promising that it'll work. It's more about the ne'emanus ha-rofeh than it is the baduk u-menusah of the refuah. And the rofeh is claiming, I did it on somebody else, and it worked. And it worked. Let me ask you a question: how do you know he did it on someone else and it worked? How do you know? What, you did research? Maybe you're mechuyav to do research. Maybe you're mechuyav to go and ask. You said you did it on—oh, it wasn't even a Jewish woman. Maybe it was a goyish woman. What happens if he did this refuah on a goyish woman? She doesn't want to bleed every time she's with her husband. I don't know, I'm asking. I'm not allowed to check. I think it's a very legitimate question. What? A goy is not allowed to what? I can't hear what you said. A goy is not allowed to do what? Which part? Yeah. It's not good enough. Why? Because they have different bodies. Germasim, zirmasusim. Maybe his—if he's a sus, he's a susta. Maybe therefore it's not shayach. It's not shayach to being a raya. Who says this? This is what goes through my mind. You see, right away, I want to know what you're referring to. Why is she different? Maybe by goyim it's different. Maybe Rebbi Machmas tashmish is a choli based on ruchniyus. Maybe it's because you do aveiros, you get this choli, and the goyim don't have it. And how do you know? What are you asking? Maybe, what is it? I thought it was done chimud, and maybe by a goy maybe that... Maybe. It all could be. There's no choli of Rebbi Machmas tashmish. Maybe, maybe, maybe the goy... A Yid's body is different than a goy's body. A Yid's body is different than a goy's body. Let me ask you another kasha, okay, which I'd like to write teshuvos about one day. The statistics on goyim count for Yidden, and they quote all the statistics. Maybe a Yid is different. Maybe Yiddishe bodies are different. Huh? Maybe. I don't know. This is all good. I mean, what I do know, but I don't know here. I know it from other places. I know different sugyas, okay? But I'm learning with you. So in the meantime, I just learn with you, ashtikale shulchan aruch and ashtikale Shach, from the shem, the Bach, and I show you that there's so much here that you didn't see. Yeah, it's not... You have to read what it says here. So the first diyuk, first, the third, the fourth, whatever, one of the diyukim is that the roifah, that the roifah is the ne'eman. It's not so much the refuah. The roifah is ne'eman. And then I ask you, should we verify? That this refuah ever happened. Because if it's the roifah, so then it's him, so we don't have to verify. But if it's the refuah, so then maybe, maybe he's lying to us. I don't know. Maybe a rofe is not ne'eman, and let's go. You know what? He told me that it works for Khana Hinda. Okay, Khana Hinda, does it work? Go find out if it works. Go do research. Get the phone number, yeah? The opposite. The Shulchan Aruch says the opposite. The rofe Yisrael is more ne'eman because he knows the chiyuv kares. We're going to learn that. That's what it says. We're just slowly—let me say my shiur. Let me talk. We're going to get to all this. First let's learn what it says here. We'll talk about all these shailas. We're going to talk about—can I have some water? Can I have some water? I'm dehydrated. Okay, now. So it says like this: Nir'eh d'im rofe zotzer refuah zu lisha echad kodem shenischasah, v'yecholah isha acheres lismoch alav af l'achar shenischasah, b'shalosh pamim, muteres shehami pa'am revi'is l'achar refuah. Why? Maybe it only works on a one time, but maybe not by a woman who you see that she's very sick. She's a very sick woman. It happens.

Three times. By dilma the taiches that the sickness is the same. One and three is the same level of sickness. By one, it's nischazek that she has the sickness. I'm sorry, by three it's nischazek that she has it. Mashenkin by one, it's not nischazek. If you hold it's the same sickness, then let's be choshesh for it. It's an interesting ha'ara over here. Why does the Bach feel that the one timer and it worked for her is just as capable that it should work for the three timer? Who said? Mechtais. I mean, obviously one is called a ra'ayah machmas tashmish, that she's given the sample, she has the machla, and the other one doesn't have that. So then how do you know to prove from the one timer to the three timer? Okay? You have to push the shaila. The Bach learns that the one timer could prove the three timer. The one timer could prove the three timer. And one is a chazakah, she's really sick, no? Whereas she says it's the same level of sickness, but one has a chazakah to be that sick, to be that sick person. Pashut, if you're only one, then you're not sick. It's a fluke, it happened. Okay. Also, I'd like to know, what does it mean yesh mistapek? What's the klalim in the Shulchan Aruch? Yesh, you know, when he brings two de'os, then there's klalim. What about when he brings yesh mistapek? He himself has a safek. What is yesh mistapek? I'm saying, it's not yesh omrim v'yesh omrim. It's yesh mistapek v'yesh ein mistapek. What exactly are the two... What is the klal? So, stam a hamevadya has a klal, so you'll have to look it up. I don't know it. I don't know the klal of yesh mistapek. Usually I know there's yesh, yesh and yesh, so there's yesh omrim, yesh omrim, yesh de'ah, and he brings the yesh mi shematir is the second, right? Is the second halachah. Oy dilma, the yesh mistapek and the yesh mi shematir is the two shitos. Yesh mistapek mutar lismoch alav from when the rofeh tells. The yesh mi shematir, that's pakach, that yes, it is good, hem amar lach. I mean, is this the same halachah? Is these two halachos? Yesh mistapek mutar lismoch alav, and it doesn't mean al harefuah; it means to trust the doctor. So it's a safek, and the yesh mi shematir that you could trust the doctor. Or two different halachos. One is about the refuah, and the other one is about the rofeh. Let's go weiter. The yesh mi shematir, im amar lo rofei Yisrael nisrapeis. If the rofei Yisrael told her that you're nisrapeis. Now, obviously you're talking about a rofei Yisrael, that's clear. But what dargah is this rofei Yisrael? Is he a shomer Torah u'mitzvos? Doesn't say. Is this rofei Yisrael a person who keeps taharas hamishpachah? How far do you know that there are certain people, frum, they're not going to be mechalel Shabbos, but they're not so makpid on taharas hamishpachah. How do you know? Maybe not. That's exactly what I want. How did you know that that's my whole shit? That's exactly what I'm getting at, and no one talks like this. You see, this is what I'm getting at. I want you to understand the halacha. I want to know what the roif is about. Is it an umdana or is it an eidus? That's the end. You just stole my shiur, but I don't mind. But let's go a little slowly, okay? So here's the yesod, all right? That's established, right? How much level of yesod? He's a shomer Shabbos, he walks around with a klei yamuka, so you know that he's not going to carry on Shabbos. But the ... is makpid on taharas mishpacha. I don't know. Does he know the halachas? Maybe he doesn't even know the halachos. Maybe he's a bochur. What happens if the roif is a bochur? I'm saying, he knows halachas, ... ... the chiluk between nidah and niddah. I don't know, what's the ... He knows this. I don't know, it doesn't say. As long as his yesod is good enough. How can he be a roif? I'll give you a list of such people. I know many such people. I know one of them that even learned by me. He's a bochur, he's the ... college. Yeah. Okay, do me a favor. This is ... ma'aseh. In the rest of the world, you're allowed to go to a roif no matter if he's a boy, if he's a girl, if he's a monkey, it doesn't make a difference.

That's halacha. You want to have frum mezachin. Don't mix frumkeit with halacha. Halacha is you're allowed to be. You can't look at them. You could look. That's not what you're talking about. That's what I tell you. If he's a doctor, that's what he does. If he became a doctor before he... You don't know what you're talking about. That's what I tell you. I know that in hergashah... That hergashah is not the law. If he was bachur and she went and said, it should not be דאורייתא for a gynecologist. Yeah, who told you that? Who told you that? Pashut. Okay, so it's pashut wrong. It's not true. Okay, let's start again. Let me start again. Or goyish or woman. Okay, so let me tell you that some of the best guys in the college is in Borough Park are frum yidden. That's what. Okay, listen, do me a favor. Don't, do me a favor. Don't, please, just... No, he wasn't. The guy was the guy before he was a... Before he knew religious. He was religious in school. Let me tell you. Stay there. Tell me, the Rambam became a guy in college before or after he was frum? I just want to know, when did he become a... The Ramban became a guy in college before or after? It says clearly. No, it's clearly. They lived babies. The Rambam lived babies. You do it. The Rambam used to live babies. Maybe he didn't look. He did it with a magic wand. Okay, do me a favor. Please stop. Learn the chiluk between the halacha and the frumkeit. Derech chibah, not derech refuah. He's a doctor. He doesn't care. So I'm telling you, you're wrong. What do you want me to tell you? I don't... you make it, you made up something. Not if you do it derech refuah. I don't... you're a doctor. You're allowed to do it. If you're a doctor, it doesn't, it doesn't. First of all, there's no, there's no any negation. It's discussed. You're a doctor. What kind of negation? So that's what you say. It's a machloikes, the Torah and you. You say this, and the Torah says something else. So what should I tell you? It's only if a person doesn't. Okay. Next. You're right. Okay, so now... You're right. Okay, you're right. Good, you're right. Okay, v'yesh mi shematir. Okay, you're right. V'yesh mi shematir. And some people are matir. I even went to ask Rav Dovid before this guy became a guy, if I should let him do... Rav Dovid said it's okay, let him do. Now, v'yesh mi shematir, it's only if you do it for refuah, but if you do it for refuah, there's no issur. What's the issur? A doctor looks anywhere, anything. If he does, it's medical, it's refuah, so it's not. The Chazal say because the pshat is, b'melachta ka'asik, his mind is not involved. His mind is—he's thinking about lawsuits. That's all he's thinking about. So really, he's thinking not to make a mistake. That's b'melachta ka'asik, that's what the Gemara says. B'melachta ka'asik. There's no issur whatsoever. Now, you want to tell me it's not right, it's definitely not right, unless he's such a person that he can... It's telling me the difference between frumkeit and halacha. Yeah, know the halacha. The halacha is that it's mutar. Now, you want to know if a guy is normal, he's obviously sick in the head if he wants to go into such a profession, if he's a bachur. You're right, but that has nothing to do with that. That's neither here nor there. Halacha is it's mutar, and b'melachta ka'asik, and that's all. Yes. So the truth is, the truth is that you have to know the person. Now, if the person went into it for the wrong reasons, it shows that he's also not well, because long term, it means that that's not what it is long term. It's disgusting at the end. For the right reasons, his family. Let's say his father's a guy in a college; he wants to go into the family business. It's not a Robert, it's mutter. But it's mutter. You're doing it b'derech refuah. Okay, can we get off this topic? Because even talking about it is not for me. It's just not for me. I don't talk about this topic. You want, there's other rabbis that like this topic. Okay, I just threw it out there because that's halacha. You can have a bachur. I'll give you his name, his number. You can call him up. He lives in Connecticut, and he was a chashuv bachur. He learned in all the regular yeshivas, and he became a cardiologist. He's still not married, okay? End of story.

Okay? Maiseh shehaya. I want to know, in such a case, all right? End of story. You know who it is? He used to live in Q Gardens. Next. Okay? Matter of fact, when he came to me, I hit him over the head like Ninveh. I gave it to him left and right. And then we had she'eilos, and then the answer was a lot of different... Now, yesh mi shematir. Okay, this topic, see, talks to the Beis Hakisei Rabbanim. I don't—it's not for me, these type of topics. I'm saying there's Beis Hakisei Rabbanim that enjoy talking about Beis Hakisei. I don't enjoy talking about Beis Hakisei. Okay, do me a favor, Pinchas, could you go to the other side of the beis medrash, please? Go to the other side of the beis medrash. Okay, now. V'yesh mi shematir, im amar lo rofi Yisrael nisrapei. So it doesn't say. I know there's a psak from this and Karelitz, could be it's in this Chut Shani also. If anyone has a sefer, I think it's there, that he has to be makpid on taharas hamishpachah. I don't know. You know, you're supposed to ask him. I don't know. You're supposed to say, come over, are you makpid on taharas hamishpachah? I don't know. And if you're mesupak if he's... I don't know. Bishloma Shabbos, Shabbos is out in the open. You can tell the person, he's very frum, that you could tell him, how much he is makpid. I don't know. And if you have... and then you would come over... that depends. Some are not so, not so. I saw a lot of people. I don't know. Do you know every doctor with a little yarmulke if he's makpid on taharas hamishpachah? What do you know? I don't know. It's a good she'eilah. It's interesting halachah. What is an emanus for a rofei Yisrael? What's considered a rofei Yisrael? That's what I want to talk about. You see, I'm getting to this. You see, now you understand why you're sitting next to me. I want to know, are you talking about his expertise? Are you talking about his edus sheboi? Are you talking about his hilchos niddah sheboi? That's what I want to discuss. I'm going to try to break down this halacha. Are we talking about expertise? Are we talking about edus? Or are we talking about trusted about niddah? Interesting. Right, so you write, so then. So that's why I'm asking, is that what it is? I just want to know. Okay, so let's see a little further, and we'll discuss. Now, v'im tira isha shepaska dam vesta, v'ra'ah al yedei refuah, nikar sheha'ilah, yesh liסמוך af al ove kochav. What do you need bichlal? If it stopped, it stopped, no? I mean, if you see that it's working, it's working. I mean, why would you need the guy to tell me what, that it's working? What exactly, that the... No, if the doctor has to put a stamp on her, you need, what do they call that, a clean bill of health. That, you see it's working. V'im tira isha shepaska dam vesta, v'ra'ah, so let's be מסיים that you see it's stopping. Unless the pshat is maybe it's not vestes. If it's vestes, l'choira it's a little bit... Like tonight, if she can wear a different type of vest, so you're playing with the vest and you see it works. You know, let me move a little bit. We're never going to get anywhere. Let me... so much, so much. I want to pour it all out. So listen, just listen, okay? All right? It's just a shtickel vestes, and you see that it's playing with the vestes, so then I don't need a goy. I see something's changing. I see something's changing. Okay. Let me ask you a different question. What happens if the goy comes and says, not nisrapeh—I'm sorry, if the rofeh says not nisrapeh, but she's not a re'uyah machmas tashmish. There's something else going on there. Why is the halacha only about that she's nisrapes? She went to a doctor, and the doctor says it's not coming from there. There's something else. She has makkas, she has something else, she has a pesaim, I don't know. Why is the sugya only about nisrapes? So it could be, you could say, because that's even a bigger chiddush. On the tzad that it's bichlal something, Avadi, neheman. Avadi can come and say it's a makah. But to come and say that she is, that she got better...

That's playing with it more, right? Right? You're taking away the issur. Saying by the maka, you say it's a whole different sugya. So then could it be if a doctor would say that she has maka, he's ne'eman? Is that what this sugya is about? And then maybe even a goy is ne'eman. Yes, there is, I know. So why can't I say it? Because it says it on the bottom, so I can't say it. What it says on the bottom is the opposite of what I just said. That actually for a maka she's not ne'eman. It's more for a ra'uy machmas tashmish, because it's not so... kloros d'Oraisa, maybe it's דרבנן, and she's asur l'olam, and it weakens the ra'uy machmas tashmish. Yeah? You see? Yeah? What? That's what you saw on the bottom, the Pischei Teshuva. Whatever you saw, wherever you saw it. The ra'ayon on this is about that the ne'emonus of the rofeh is maybe only on the ra'uy machmas tashmish, but it's not about the maka. It means on maka it wouldn't be. So I'm trying to say maybe, let's be medayek, ra'uy is worse, and therefore there's a whole svara that a goy is not ne'eman. Mash'ein kein by maka, which maybe is better, and therefore maybe the goy is ne'eman. Or the other way around, that maka could be worse. And the pshat is that even for a maka, even a Yid won't be ne'eman. No, the pshat is it's a ra'uy machmas tashmish, right? Here, ilan, so we undo it a little bit, we minimize it, and we say a Yid's ne'eman. So then what does he not want to say then? That she has a makah? By such, you say you're not ne'eman to say you have a makah. What happens when she says not nisrapes, says that it's not that, it's a makah. Well, the pshat is, bichlal she's not saying it's a makah? Well, the pshat, you're allowed to say, l'gabei re'ei machmas tashmish, it's a makah. It's a chakirah here. Pashut zach. You like the way my words, huh? Every second it's like, let's go to the next, let's push the envelope a little more. The way the poskim bring it down is machmas makah, you can't say. All this halacha is only about re'ei machmas tashmish, פחות. Rabbanan, and it's asur l'olam, we'll be meikel. So machmas makah — it's not makah; the roif is less ne'eman. So what about saying that the machmas tashmish is not machmas tashmish, it's actually a makah? L'gabei that, he is ne'eman to say makah? Or even for that you can't say? Let's say a woman, boom, you come to the doctor, doctor says makah, which by the way is what they do today. Tziruf simanim. The rav will ask, it's painful, she feels scratches, okay, and the doctor also said, right? Some say that you can even in general go and ask the doctor about a makah. The shaylah is how you learn up this se'if, because this se'if talks about not makah, okay? On the tzad that a regular makah you're not ne'eman. So then by re'ei machmas tashmish... If that's considered nisrapes of that, or you should come and say that it's bichlal not a reiach, tachris, it's maka. For that you could say maka. For maka, maka, to aser niddus, to a matar niddus, for the zayin nekiyim, maybe you can't come and say maka. But this undo the reiach mustash. Does it have to be nisrapes, or it could even be what? That it's maka. That's the shayla I have. Things that I, over the years, it depends how you learn. The pashut, I would have said maka is better, but the poskim say maka is worse. Basically true, but they all say that maka is worse. Now, in the old days, in the—

In the old days, there was no film. There was no way how to make a, you know, X-ray, see what's going on inside. So what exactly did a doctor see? I mean, it's hard to really understand what a doctor was able to... Is it shayach that what a doctor was in those days was a medical evaluation? You know, in English we call it an evaluation. The doctor will go and evaluate you. What do they say? A medical opinion is an evaluation, right? What do they have another word when... a diagnosis, right? Diagnosis. Huh? How do you feel? He sees, he sees the simanim, the symptoms. What happens if today you're able to take a picture, an X-ray, and you see mamish it's clear? So maybe the din rofeh changes. Is it shayach, the din rofeh of the past, is different than the din rofeh of today? It's another shaylah, right? One is seeing, and one is just evaluating. I'll tell you a little more. You ready? And because he already spoke out what I really want to get to at the end of the shiur, I'll clarify it even more. If you learn it's an eidus halacha, so then it won't be good that you saw it on an X-ray; you'd have to see it directly. Can I come and say I saw in a picture this guy killed somebody? No? Huh? It is. X-rays are windows? I didn't know that. I'm asking you a question. If someone took an X-ray of someone killing somebody, all right? It's the same story. You see him with that knife, and he took an X-ray, and you see the hand, and you see one bone hitting the other bone, all right? Sufficient? You all do Hilchos eidus on that? It's different. Possible to do a normal way looking at it? Mostly, tremendous. You should know, you should go into the rabbanut, and you should speak in the aggadah. What you just did was you had an innovative from the Gedolei Yisrael, an innovative thought from the Gedolei Yisrael, that since there's no other way to do it, so this becomes the eidus for this thing. Wow. Tremendous chiddush. You heard of such a tremendous... ...timing the kra. ... What? I don't know. I don't know. This is hilchos eidus. This is hilchos eidus, no? That's identifying because you're able to tell by the skull and the bones, you're able to tell. That's right. That's right. That's exactly the halacha, by the way. If you saw on a shidur chai through a video, okay, that someone killed someone, I don't know if you could say eidus about that. What'd you say, you were where? I was at a baseball game. I'm shown live on TV. What? Yankees. What? What are you doing at a Yankee game? That itself is a stira to what you watch. That itself means that you're pasul eidus. What are you doing at a Yankee game? No, I could kill. Oh, the fact that the Yankee game is not so good, I wouldn't be seeing you at a Yankee game watching. Trust. Okay, the kids are getting l'maaseh, getting l'maaseh, okay? If you see on a shidur chai, it's not so pashut to me. Butnaklus is an extension, which is a big shayla, because since it's al yedei the mishkafayim, so that could be different. Mishkafayim is very, very yotzi. You know, mishkafayim, we spoke about it. You know, bris is, it's a very big difference. Not lie. Not lie. I think the whole side why you're not believing. The Yad Yosef has a whole shaila. You can answer amen when you hear, you can answer amen when it's on a tape recorder. That's because it's hoda'ah. That's because it's something else. That's because you're being modeh to the matzav and tapping right now. You know that it's happening, and you don't have to hear it. Let me tell you something. There's a tremendous teshuvos, but they have to be learned. You know what I'm saying? I don't want to just throw out svaros. I'm telling you, think of what I'm trying to get at. Are we talking about eidus? And I don't know. I don't know how far the eidus goes. Okay, shh. Now let's go to the guf hasugya. You ready? Mak is worse because, in other words, the pshat is a special heter for...

It's only drabbanan. It's sefek, it's not a real nidah. Second of all, it's to be matir for l'olam. You know, the, what's called, the taz, ta'gunah, it's machmir, and we try to be meikel. No, but could he say meikel l'gabi to say that it's not a real machmas tashmish? For that he's allowed to say meikel, maybe. Maybe meikel to be matir in nidah is a— it's a makel. Normally makel maybe in a ne'eman. Maybe l'gabi ra'ui machmas tashmish you could say meikel, or maybe you have to say nisrapes. That's what I'm clarifying. Maybe you have to say nisrapes. So tell me yes or no. Don't change the version. Don't say something. Yes. That's the stuff. That's the stuff. Okay. Now I'm going to show you the next shlav of understanding this halacha. What happens if two doctors say the same thing? She went for a second opinion, right? So is there also yesh mishtapkim and yesh mi shematir, and if it's a goy, it's only— or maybe when there's two doctors, three doctors say the same thing, then maybe we could be somech. Or let's go one step further. You know what my next thing would be? Think. How do I think the next step is? What happens if two doctors contradict each other? What happens in such a case? Well, Yisrael, maybe Yisrael is one, but let's hear two Yisraelim, two Yisraelim, and they contradict each other. What happens in such a case? Okay, let me tell you. All these cases are beautiful halachic shailas. This is a teshuva that has to be written. B'dvar hashe'eilah b'inyan, and these are like six or seven cases, which I don't know if all the— I think most of the poskim don't talk about these things, but they should. I mean, it's interesting horrors, right? Let's see how we could start to answer it, because if you feel that you can answer this in a few minutes, then that means you're not a real posek. That means you're posek al hamadrigos. And in extra short, we call that they give psakim on the steps. You know, when the gadol goes up the steps, you ask, 'Ha'im mutar li lakachat ... a knife ... kill?' Yeah, yeah, yeah. Psakim al hamadrigos. You want psak, you have to work on it. But let me tell you where the mekor of all this is. Let's start working. Okay. Chav-beis, the Gemara. The Gemara says like this: Amar Reb Eliezer ben Tzadok, shnei ma'asim hayah l'aba, mitavin l'Yavneh. He brought it up. This is the shaila that he brought. Ma'aseh b'ishah shehoyesah mapeles k'min klipos adumos, u'va'u v'sha'alu es aba. They came to ask my father. V'haaba sha'al l'chachamim, v'chachamim sha'alu l'rofim. Rofei, rofim—just want to be medayek; it's an interesting lashon. Does rofim mean many doctors, or rofim just means shem davar, doctors, but he could have asked one doctor? This is how you write a teshuva, by the way. If you want to know how to write a teshuva, this is teshuva material, this diyuk. Sho'alu l'rof'im. Do you mean rofei, and they're called the doctors? You know, I went to the doctors. What, you went to twenty doctors? No, I went to one doctor, but that's what I mean when I say the doctors. Or, I went to doctors. I went, I went. Okay. V'amru lahem, and they, plural, said to them, Isha zu, mako yesh lah b'soch me'eha, shemimenu mapeles k'min klipos. Now, did they check this woman out? No. You know how we'd learn this Gemara? The symptoms. Yeah, the symptoms. This is the symptoms, and this is the diagnosis. Or it's talking about that they gave her an internal check. You see the nafka mina? This is all the shailas. You see, I'm showing you now, go back to the Gemara, and al פי the Gemara, if you learn it l'yamench, you'll be able to start being poishet a little bit. I'm not פה through the Rishonim, but I'm showing you the reading of the Gemara. Shemimenu mapeles...

Tatil l'mayan. Now who said this? Tatil l'mayan. Did the rofim say tatil l'mayan? Did the rofim say it? Was this part of their diagnosis medically, or this was just a woman's, what do they call that, a grandmother's eitzah? How do they call that, a home—yeah, trufot savta. I mean, they gave a good eitzah. They gave a, you know, put it into the water. A homemade remedy. A homemade, that's what I was thinking, a homemade remedy, or this is takkeh the medical procedure for this? You know, there's a very big difference. I'll tell you why. Im l'mochu, tamei. If it is, tamei. Comes along the Beis Yosef, Maran Rabbeinu HaGaon, Kuf Tzadik Aleph, and he says, Mikan muchach that you can trust the rofim. Comes along the Rama, the Darkei Moshe, he says, Mikan muchach the opposite. You know why? Because otherwise, why do you have to be tatil l'mayan then? I understood the chiluk between the Beis Yosef and the Rama is what I just told you. The Beis Yosef was learning the doctors—no, the opposite—that the doctors were saying that this is the diagnosis, and the procedure is to do this, and I'll tell you a shtikel a diyuk. You know what my diyuk is? What's the pshat in the im l'mochu tameiah? What, tameiah? I mean, im l'mochu dam. If this is the medical— Huh? Who's talking here? It's our rabbanim talking, no? No, I'll tell you before anything. First I want to start by saying that the Beis Yosef might have learned that this is all part of the emunah. The re'if is now meant to say that I feel, according to what you told me, it's this, and if you put it into the water and it comes out to my medical hashara is that it's that. This is all about a medical evaluation, and the tafel of mayim is the procedure of the testing. If a doctor comes and tells you, yeah, that the blood test shows so and so, so it's not you, it's the blood test that said it. I don't trust the doctor; I trust the blood test. Yeah, but it's the doctor who's reading the blood test. Or the pshat is, bamid the doctor said what it was, and the tafel of mayim is the raya. Now let's say, why say tamei? It should say that it's dam. What tamei? Are they paskening tamei and tahor? Remember I went back to ask you this in the beginning of this shiur: does the doctor talk medical or does he talk hilchos nida? I want to know that. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. I want you to know that in Borough Park, the doctors pasken halacha. The doctors pasken halacha. The rav calls up and the doctor says, according to my havanah in hilchos nida, no, they do, they do. See, the frum ones, the ones that are shomer Torah u'mitzvos, that's how they answer. She's not a nidah; she is a nidah. And the rav will either accept it or he'll ask, but— I don't know. That's what I thought. Maybe you weren't here. Oh yeah, maybe it does. No, but if it's such a big thing, if you want to put it all together, then if you're passing into the... Is it raya machmas tashmish, or is it dam makka? Meya, come and say tmeiah. Okay, let's see a little further. ... Who's talking? Chachma talking? Who said the word tmeiah? Who said tmeiah? Who, who, who? The doctor said it or the rav said it? Who said it? What? What did I say? I'll show you the Gemara. Okay, I won't teach you. Now, okay, so what I'm showing you, I'm showing you the Gemara. I asked you a question: Tatel l'mayin, tmeiah. Who's talking? I don't know who, who, who's tmeiah. I shouldn't teach you Gemara. Okay, I won't teach you. Now, the Tosafos...

This is a very interesting teretz. Tosafos says, why would they have to check if they told you already that she has a makah? So Tosafos says because they weren't sure themselves. Because when they said that she has a makah, they — it was a could be she has a makah, an assumption. Meila, once you have an assumption, then there has to be, let's go and check it further. Let's go for further testing, for further. Tosafos, that's a Tosafos. Let me ask you a different question. Maybe you can learn pshat in the Gemara like I said, that a ro'eh machmas tashmish, they can only say nisrapes. But to come and say makah, eina ne'eman. So for them to say makah, it's not good enough. What is it? Yeah, so I don't know, what is it? How do we find out? It's not a question of ne'emon. I don't know, that's what I think. I'm not so sure who — I'm not sure what this Gemara is. I'm not so sure it's doctor medical. I don't know what went on over here. I'm not so sure that pshat is tatel l'mayim. Tatel l'mayim might have been a good advice from the doctor. They claimed it was makah, but you can never say makah. So the chacham needed to prove to that tatla mayim is tamei. According to the poskim that you can't say makah, so how do you learn the Gemara? Tatla mayim becomes the Gemara. So the Rosh learns the pshat in the Gemara is that they never came up with a clear. They never came up with a clear. But according to the poskim that we quoted, that the pshat is not nemesi makah anyway, so meila what did they have to come and say? They had to come and say, So I'll give you my medical advice. You know that sometimes there's medical diagnosis. There's something called medical advice. So shalu l'rofim could have been medical advice. Why did they come to ask the rofim bichlal? Maybe a rofeh is bichlal not ne'eman for anything. It's a question. What do we do? Maybe this Gemara was about advice. Tatla mayim. They gave her advice. Okay. Says the Chasam Sofer: goy, yenem, not them, kfeilah, parnososoi, chumra, kula, yachol levarer, yenem. What a long, big teshuva that everybody quotes, goes on and on with all the klalim of when you could and here, sheharofim... Okay, says like this: Yir'eh, the Sefirah, d'ein harofeh ne'eman ela heicha d'i efshar levarer. The roif is ne'eman only where you can't check. V'hacha, efshar she'efshar levarer al yedei bedikah, lo mehemana roif ad shetisbarer al yedei bedikah. Huh? Interesting pshat. Maybe the pshat in the Gemara is the roif would have been ne'eman, but since there is a bedikah, therefore you're not ne'eman. Meaning, where there's pakat no other choice to be mevarer, then, and a chanami, the roif would be ne'eman. So we have three pshatim. Pshat number one, the Tosafos Rosh, that the roif didn't give a clear final. Pshat number two is because he's not ne'eman on a makah. Pshat number three could be is the makom d'efshar levarer, and a chanami, a roif is takkeh not ne'eman. Is roifin umdena, or is roifin eidus? If it's an eidus, what do you have to mevarer afterwards?

But if roif was like a chazakah, like an umdana, so the makom defshil l'varer, efsher bezhishken l'varer, takkeh. Where you have no choice, so then you follow the roif. But where you have a choice, where you can make a bedikah, you can make a test, then אין הכי נמי, there's no point of following the roif. It's starting to formulate in my mind that there's three ways to understand the whole din of roif. Is a roif the ne'emonus? And this is what I want to get at. Is it the ne'emonus of kfeilah, and lo meira in nasei? Is roif his expertise, like a kfeilah, like a baker, like a cook who is not going to lie about basar b'chalav because it's—what? And therefore he's mutar l'mesiach l'fi tumo, right? Hagan by a roif it's a little different, right? Because he has to talk to him, right? He has to—you're coming to ask him, right? Now, what would be if the doctor doesn't know what you're coming for, and he's talking b'siach l'fi tumo? Go for a checkup, and the doctor's mesiach l'fi tumo what it is. Would a guy be ne'eman? If you go and tell him, Listen, I have this and this problem. Give me your expertise. If the guy goes and, Give me the expertise, you're going for this... So maybe if I could help you, it's not called a mesilas; it's not the sugya of tefillah. But if the pshat is that you don't tell him, and gradde he gives you a diagnosis, then he has halachah of tefillah, so even a goy might be נאמן. Is it about the umdena? Is it about ne'emonus eidus, and then it's a din in Yisrael davka? Is it a din in umdena? Since we don't have a clear dictum what it is, right? So in order to be matir, it's a raya machmas tashmish, whatever it is, we're going to come and we're going to make an umdena. We're going to give an umdena the right to pasken. What is the din of the roif? Now, this is one interesting chazonish. What happens if she's a רואה מחמת תשמיש once, went to the doctor, and the doctor said, No, no, no, no, it's not a רואה מחמת תשמיש. No, no, no. Okay, she's fine. And then she saw two times after that. Has she now become a רואה מחמת תשמיש? Well, let's say two times and the third time she saw, okay, let's make it even worse. She saw twice, went to the doctor, the doctor said, Ah, and then she saw again. The third time she saw a third time, and she didn't go to the doctor. Well, let's say she went to the doctor. But now she saw three times. She's huchzeka. Says the Chazonish, no, she's not. No, she's not. No, she's not. But if it was three times, the doctor would say it afterwards, the same story, it wouldn't be good. Yeah, but what's the difference? At the end of the time, she's told three times. Three said. That's his lashon. The doctor's number. It's finished. What happened, happened. It's irrelevant what happened. I'm reading Chazon Ish, perek beis. Sorry, perek beis, sif katan aleph. Siman perek beis, sif katan aleph. I like it, I like it. Why was it? It says, it says it's not. You know, let's read it. Bring me the Chazon Ish, perek beis. But maybe third time is proving the doctor wrong. Right, you're proving the doctor wrong. Hegloi milsa lemafrei'a. He says, l'choira it's nigloi milsa lemafrei'a that he'd always talking about the doctor, because once says the chazakah, we don't trust the doctor. Al das ha'isha sheratza beis pa'am machmas tashmish, v'lihefsik, b'hitaher b'einayin.

הולכה אצל הרופא, ומצא מכה ברחם המוציאה דם, וריפא אותה הרופא. He gave her medicine, yeah. ולפי דברי הרופא כבר נרפא המכה. She's fine. It was makeh. It's interesting, he puts two things together. Makah v'nikra, right? It was, A, it's a makeh, and two, she's nirpa. ואחר יום נבלה ראתה גם כן. She saw a third time, okay? Right, but she now has to say that after she took... Okay. You don't know? It says. You could say it's a makeh after she took the... Hilkach, עדיין היא מותרת בלי שום פקפוק. אבל נראה, הדברים שעדיין לא נתרפא. For so much, you can't say she's nisrapa, because she's... נראה לפרש עד שתתרפא. Go ahead. Can you say that she's... You hear how he's mechalek? It's not a ... machmas tashmish. So be poreish till you get to refuah. Huh? So what do you want? No, but the doctor said it was good. So she just told me how much ... No? If what he said is good, then she ... it's like a reset. It's a reset. I want to ... I want to stop right here. This is the Yesod HaSugya, the she'eilos of this. Is it eidus? Is it umdena? Or is it the ne'emonus of the rofeh, because that's his, like a kfeila, that's his umdena, and lo meirim nafsei. Lo meirim nafsei. Tell me, if a kfeila would make a mistake, what would happen? People would stop going to him? What was the problem by the ...? Just he would get a bad name, right? What happens if there's a lawsuit against the doctor for making a mistake? Is that more than the kfeila with the lo meirim nafsei, ad deka? We can believe today? Is it different today because of this reason, that there's lawsuits? Is there more of a mirsas today because there's lawsuits? You could sue a doctor for any mistake, any medical—he tells you, I have something, I didn't have it. His practice is over. Show something bad happened. I had to get divorced. No, he misdiagnosed my machlah. I have a tremendous disease. What if I have something wrong with my... Sure, get misdiagnosed. Yeah, he had a machlah. Yes, you could. Sure you could. If you came to court and said that he says I had wounds on my thing and I don't have wounds, sure, of course you could. A misdiagnosis, of course. I went to a different doctor and he took my medicine that I was supposed to take. And so I'm trying to say, he thinks being a doctor is about looking. It's not about looking. The guy's making mistakes. That's what he's worried about. Any doctor who goes to work in the morning, praise Hashem, one thing: that he doesn't make a mistake. He ain't thinking what you're thinking, trust me. That's not what's going through his mind. The next thing is, huh? How many times do people say... doctors, based on how much people he killed, this guy killed, bad guy. He messed up. He has a heart attack there, man. He has a heart attack. They say I'm a doctor was there, he murdered this and this person, right? And this guy's the most... this guy's using moldy... who knows what. He checked something, anything that a guy says, he gets into big trouble.