Hilchos Niddah: Ein Pesichas HaKever B’lo Dam, External Examinations, and Dam Makah

Transcript

Okay. Then it comes out that there's a very big chiddush in shelo k'derech. Shelo k'derech could mean in mahalach, which means if you cause it to come out, that's called shelo k'derech. Or shelo k'derech is procedure, the flow. It's not a derech, not flowing k'derech rei'as hanashim. One is in halach, and one is in rei'ah. So we said that it's possible that there's a very big nafka mina. What would be the nafka mina? We said that, let's say you force it out. Maybe that's still called k'derech, as long as it comes out regular. Or we could come and say that it has nothing to do with the way it comes out, but that you forced it. So let's say I forced it with a new pencil, so then that would be called shelo k'derech rei'ah. I want to explain with this a few nekudos lahalacha that we find in this seif. At the end of the seif, okay, gimmel, the Mechaber brings down a yesod called, אי אפשר לפסיחת הקבר בלא דם. It can't be the psichah, the opening of the kever. Now what's the kever? It's the rechem, and the reason why it's called kever, because the baby is buried there, basically. That's a very nice way of saying it, right? He's basically buried in the womb. So therefore it's called a kever, and there's a klal of אין פתיחת הקבר בלי דם. You can't have psichat hakever without dam. So here, there's a machlokes. Pischei Teshuva brings it down. Everybody speaks about it between the Noda B'Yehuda and the Baruch Taam. The Noda B'Yehuda says that psichas hakever is even if it comes from an external force. Lo shna mibifnim, chutz, v'lo shna michutz lifnim, any psichas hakever, and not only from the natural occurrence of the dam. Usually the psichas hakever comes, a natural occurrence from either dam or baby. So he wants to mechadesh, the Noda B'Yehuda, in siman kuf chaf — I'm sure you all know it already by now — that it's shayach even if it was done externally through the womb, from outside. Baruch Taam — who is Baruch Taam? Baruch Taam wrote Hagaos. Rav Baruch Taam wrote Hagaos on the Noda B'Yehuda, and one of his big Hagaos is this, that it's not possible to call this psichas hakever, because psichas hakever has to be from inside out, inside out. Natural occurrence from blood or baby, but from outside in, it's not going to be. If you take a look at the פירוש המשניות, in the beginning of perek gimmel, the Rambam is mashma very much like this Baruch Taam. So while I'm talking, if someone wants to see it so he can quickly go get the Mishnayos, and if not, you can do it during Chazara, you look over there, whatever you want. No, no, you know what? He brings down — okay, read the lashon of the פירוש המשניות. Go ahead. No, but what's the lashon of the pirush? Mishnayos, you have there? The what's the lashon again? Yeah. The ei sheyatza meharechem. That's the... The ei sheyatza meharechem. Now, the truth is, I could argue with this diyuk. Why? It's possible that in the times of the Rambam, they didn't have any form of external either bedikos or procedures that it went the other way, from outside to in. Why not? Because they didn't have it. Operations is one thing, but I don't know if they did operations on the rechem. I have no idea. I could hear not. Outside in. Every time a doctor takes a... takes a biopsy, or he puts in like a type of camera to check what's going on. It's not a question of taking out. The question is that you're opening it from the outside. So I could tell you a very big nafka mina.

One is a natural occurrence of nidus, and the other one's either. See, we're going to speak about this. Either there's no dam, or we're going to say a different pshat in a few moments. But pashut pshat is there's no dam, that the rule of dam that comes out has to be a rule from outside in. Now, pashut, what he means to say is medically. Medically speaking, in order for there to be dam, the psichas hakever had to be from inside, meaning, because if it's yotza meharechem, it has to go with dam. The yotza meharechem is mechayev dam. Nichnas l'soch harechem is not necessarily mechayev dam. I'll give you an example, a very, very pashut example. You ready? Could you have any part of your body, a cell, where it protrudes from the body and there's no dam? No such thing. Not a super—I'm saying anything protruding, leaving, anything leaving the skin without causing some form of bleeding. Could there be such a thing? White blood, blood? You're talking about pus. I'm not even getting there. But whenever an object from within protrudes the body, right, the way it protrudes is that it has to somehow make some kind of chituch and it's going to bleed. I don't know if every shot bleeds. I don't know if you ever tried it. Nothing came out. Right. It came out. Right. That's called psichas hakever. Klali is psichas—all I'm trying to give you is a mashal, a nimshal. That whenever something leaves the rechem, it's going to be with bleeding. Whenever something comes into the rechem, we're not sure, and therefore the Rambam that says mashma going out is the diyuk that the Bach makes. Now the truth is, I'm trying to tell you, I don't know if it's such a strong diyuk, because I don't know if there was such procedures in those days, that the Rambam should tell me in and out. If it's a one-way highway, you don't have to talk about two ways. Maybe it was just a one-way highway in those days. Today it's a two-way highway, so maybe the Rambam wrote it differently, yes? I'm not telling you that they didn't go to check inside, but they did not necessarily penetrate with any instruments inside the rechem. Maybe in those times there was no medical procedures that penetrated the rechem. It's very shayach. I don't know if they had those. I'm saying, why not? If they can do check and look and know. And the answer is, medical science and medicine definitely is not the same today than it was then. It's an entirely different medical science, and you can't say it's the same one. So therefore, it's very shayach, very possible. The question of physical man, the question is, not impossible. Did they used to do such procedures? I don't know if they used to do it. Why should the Rambam talk about it? Why would the Rambam talk about an instrument going inside the rechem if they didn't have it, maybe? I don't know why. Why can you put the shfoferet? Because nothing can go inside. A shfoferet can be there, but nothing can go inside. A shfoferet is one thing, and I don't know if they had medical procedures. They used to penetrate. I don't know if it's true. I'm trying to tell you the diyuk of a Baruch Taam. What was the diyuk of a Baruch Taam? Because the Rambam says it can't leave the rechem without making blood. So they make a diyuk, but coming in could be. Maybe the Rambam is not talking about such a case. Why would they stick a woman with a needle? I mean, you're talking about a practical thing. It's not a practical thing. I don't know. Al kol panim, this is the machlokes, the Noda B'Yehuda and the Baruch Taam. Most Acharonim follow the Noda B'Yehuda, and they bring it lahalacha. R' Moshe in the teshuvos writes many times lahalacha with this Noda B'Yehuda. Igros Moshe, Chelek Aleph, siman pei gimmel, Barichus, that there's a problem with medical procedures from a doctor, and all the poskim follow it. Interestingly, the Chazon Ish argues.

There is a problem when you penetrate from the outside in, and therefore every medical procedure is a problem if it goes through the rectum. Lemaisa, the Chazon Ish, siman samach gimmel, os aleph, disagrees. He's matir, like Baruch Tam. And his reason is the halacha k'basra, which to me was a very fascinating hakra'ah, very fascinating. Why? Like, Yehuda was a gadol hador; there's no question about it. Noi d'Yehuda, who, who... But Rav Baruch Tam, it was after him. So either he was just borrowing the lashon of halacha k'basra because he felt halacha is like the second one, or he gives you the reason. The reason is because halacha is like basra, which the Chazon Ish used to follow, k'seder, in line of psak. In every psak, Chazon Ish says the halacha is k'basra, and therefore Mishnah Berurah, according to the Chazon Ish, was halacha k'basra. And therefore you couldn't argue; you couldn't argue on the Mishnah Berurah. There was no way to argue. I told you from רבי... רבי משה used to say over many times, I heard it from my father and I heard it from Rav Michel Sherkin, I heard it from many talmidim, that the halacha is like the Orach HaShulchan. Why is the halacha like the Orach HaShulchan over the Mishnah Berurah? Because the Orach HaShulchan was a rav in a city, and the questions that came to him were questions that he had to pasken l'maaseh with heterim, masha'en kein the Mishnah Berurah didn't have to pasken with heterim because he wasn't paskening for people; he was just writing likutei halacha l'fi the sugya. I'm saying the way he came out l'fi the sugya, which means that he didn't have to contemplate heterim within the psak. Now, a lot of people are going to say it over differently. They're going to say over shtot rav, because they don't understand what they're saying, basically. Shtot rav means he's a rav in a city. So they think it has something to do with the city. It has nothing to do with the city. It has to do with the type of shailas and the type of psakim that the person put out. Which means is that since he was experienced in halacha, experience sometimes overrides the letter of the law. Which means A plus B equals C, but sometimes if you have experience, you know that you have to put a different tzad heter, a different case, a different situation. Not every case is the same, and therefore you have hachra'os. You can't compare the doctor who just knows all the medical books to the doctor who has years and years of experience. He could argue directly on what he studied in the books. You know why? Experience shows him that you have to explain. Therefore the psak is like Derech HaShulchan. So says R' Moshe. That was R' Moshe's psak. Fine. L'maaseh, Mishnah Berurah, Chazon Ish, that was the basra. He was the final, the final posek as far as the sefarim in his time. Maybe you would say if someone would come out as something a sefer on the level of the Mishnah Berurah, and then the gadlus of the Mishnah Berurah, maybe you would say a Chanami, maybe you would say the halacha is like that basra. Huh? It's not a question of hold. The question is there's a machlokes between the two. Halacha is k'basra. I told you over that I went over to Reb Elyashiv once and I asked him, I asked him this question. I said to him, Moshe said... So I wanted to hear, because the Chazon Ish, I know, is not like that, so I wanted to know the answer to the question. You know, I, l'maaseh, R' Moshe is saying a higayon, something which makes a lot of sense. So he said to me, It's good, but the Chazonish said not like that. I started saying, But the Ramoishes said that the Charashulcha... Yeah, but the Chazonish said not like that. So I saw that I wasn't going to get too far. Now it's very shayach that halacha k'Basra was a shita like by the Chazonish. So it could be that's what he means over here, halacha k'Basra, like Reb Baruch Tom, that the halacha is like the later posek. Al kol panim, even this is up for discussion and has confusion, because years later many people walked around saying that the Chazonish said that even though it's an external wound, meaning external penetration, still you still have to be asur like nida. Many people heard this from him in many different situations. So they came to the Steipler and they asked him. The sefer says not like that. So the Steipler answered, brought down the Aruchos Rabbeinu. The Aruchos Rabbeinu, the Steipler, brought down the chelek daled, page mem-gimmel, different quotes from different people that wrote that the Chazonish said it's paskened like an Ovadia Yehuda. So the Steipler said he wrote his sefer in Europe, and that's where he wrote that the halacha is like Baruch Tom. But after I got to him, after I had big discussions...

Discussions with him, he backtracked. And if you notice on the later editions, the words v'tzarich iyun is found, which is something which not necessarily came in the early editions, says the Steipler, yes. He brings down here. Yeah, yeah, I can tell. He brings down the whole—what? This is not coffee? Does he bring down the whole discussion if he held, yeah, he held not? He brings the whole discussion? Ah, right, which is—this is what I know till here, yeah. Okay, so let me tell you what the Zichron Shol—let me tell you what—he's the problem. Who is the Zichron Shol? Okay, the Steipler had a son-in-law called Reb Shol Berezov. He was niftar very young, and he heard from the Chazon Ish this thing, that it's asur. And then he claimed that he had a letter from him that way also, and that's where the v'tzarich iyun is a question: did he hold, did he not hold? The Steipler learned up the tzarich iyun that he wasn't sure. That's how the Steipler in Orchos Rabbeinu learns up. And he learns that there was different tekufos, like even when he wrote the letter, it was before he wasn't sure, and then later on he became not sure. There's pages of this in Orchos Rabbeinu: did he or didn't he say it? Was he samech on it or he wasn't? Okay? This is one of the most famous classic machlokesin as far as pesichas hakever. Okay. Now. I would like to discuss fingers. The whole question of a shiur such a thing, but listen, but you have to know a finger. Reb Moshe held it was 19 centimeters. It has to be 19 centimeters. Three quarters. Yes, three quarters of a finger's worth. How big is a finger? One second. It has to be 19 centimeters. It has to be wide and— Oh, the width, the width, like this. The width. So how much is 19 centimeters? One centimeter, 19 centimeters. Millimeter, not centimeter. Millimeter. Okay, now. Okay. I want to explain this topic a little bit, why. Because it comes out that there's a question in the metzius if psichas hakever from inside and outside will make dam. I mean, I don't see— find out the metzius, I don't know. I mean, it's just a medical— it's a biopsy. Find out. You might see dam or won't be might see dam. Ein psichas hakever blo dam. Figure it out. I mean, well, according to Baruch Taam, ein psichas hakever blo dam doesn't apply when it's external. Why? Because he held it is— it's not motzi dam. I mean, what does Baruch Taam say? What, that I hold it's not true? You know, the diyuk, the diyuk that they make from the Rambam is mashma that it's takanat motzi dam. The diyuk that's made is that if it comes external... If it comes external, then it's takanat moitzi dam. Isn't that the diyuk that they make from the Rambam? But it's hard to imagine that they're arguing on a fact. Do what? Okay, so I don't know. I mean, I do know. I don't believe that that's what it is. But the diyuk is definitely that way. If you're going to be somech on the fact, vchein mashma, then it's not this. Then it's—the mashal of the Rambam is that it's takanat moitzi dam. I'll tell you what I think the pshat is. Ready? I'll tell you what I think the pshat is. You listening? Are you listening? You listening? Yeah, you're listening. The question is not, ein pesichas hanekar moitzi dam from the outside. That's not it. It is moitzi dam. The shayla is, since it's al yedei ma'aseh, kol shelo kederech re'iyah. That's what. Abad, it's moitzi dam. What are you going to argue on the metzius? I don't say. You're puncturing yourself. Check it. That's just moitzi dam. But it's not called ri'as dam nidah. And therefore, the question is, if you have a pesichah from the outside, is that the klal of pesichas kever?

Am I the only one that's freezing here? Why do people take care? I mean, unless Rav Chaim before. Oh, really? That's where it's holding? Wow. No, more than me. Huh? Wow. Maybe the pshat is it depends, a car and a van. ... Okay, let's go. Come. Yeah? All right. I believe that the issue is not the metzius, ilan. So what is the issue? The issue is the... No? Why? Who would say what? I don't know. Now, there's a whole shaila on how thick, how thick does the oivi, the width of the penetrating utensil have to be in order for it to be called pesichas hakever meachutz to be chayav al hanoda bihur. So the Shevet Halevi says, who tells you there's a shiur? Someone say to you about a shiur? You're right, there is no shiur. What is the shiur? We don't know the shiur. That means there is no shiur. I mean, if it penetrates and it makes blood, I mean, so anything that penetrates makes blood, no? Rav Moshe in the teshuvos speaks about three-quarters of an inch, 19 millimeters. Minchas Yitzchak... You ever hear Minchas Yitzchak? The Minchas Yitzchak says even if it's less... An ovi v'an esma. Well, I guess the same as R' Moshe's. Less than ovi v'an esma. Even, even, even. It could still be gorem daas. Rebel Yashiv. Three millimeters. How can you... Three millimeters. They have a... long enough. They have the stuff. Now, let me just clarify one thing. Do they hold, it comes out, you hold two fingers going, right? You're checking if she's open or whatever it is. Let me tell you, usually a doctor's finger can't do it. Usually can't even reach there. No, they use pencils. They have... Right? I'm telling you. Doing the hands is not called a bedikah that's ma'otzi dam. It doesn't go there. It doesn't go near. Okay. Now, I do want to point out that even though in the sefer of Rav Shevet HaLevi of Rav Wosner, you'll read, he writes that there's no shiur, because it doesn't say shiur, stam there is no shiur. If you don't have a mesorah for something, it's a stam. It's without a shiur. Rav Stern is a talmid of Yesod HaTaharah. He wrote a sefer called Yesod HaTaharah. There he says it's two millimeters. So either he explains that that's what Rav Shevet HaLevi means. I don't believe he argues on him. So either he heard it, and the one who wrote the sefer of the Shevet HaLevi, it's written by someone, didn't hear it. Or the pshat is that it's later, the later edition. Well, the pshat is he's arguing, or he's saying his own pshat, I don't know. It's a little different, because in the shevet HaLevi, the takkah says no, no nafkamina in the shiur. And the sefer, you say that ta'ir, which is Rav Shtern, it's he's the main man. He's Rav Vozner's man. Like Rabbi Auerbach for Rabbi Ruach, you have Rabbi Stern for Rabbi Vozner. That's his right-hand man. He wrote everything. He's his right-hand man. That's what it is. Now, I want to explain what's the nafkamina. What's the nafkamina, how thick? I mean, Rav Vozner's right. I mean, what's the difference? I mean, if it goes in and it penetrates, it makes blood. Unless, like I explained to you, that they're arguing takkeh, let's say the person has a shot, not necessarily, it's motzi dam. A small thing is not motzi dam. Yeah, but you don't need up to 90 millimeters, right? I mean, a moisha. Could it make sense that a moisha, anything less than that is not motzi dam? I don't see what Rav Moisha is writing exactly. Nineteen, you know what 19 millimeters is? It's a thick thing. I want to say the pshat is he's not arguing in the metzius. That's hold two last. I don't think he's arguing in the metzius. He holds it's not called derech re'iyah. What is a normal re'iyah? What's called a normal re'iyah? It opens up and the blood comes out. But if the hole is so small that it's not called...

Yeah, dripping blood, that's not called a maka. That's right, according to those shitos, R' Moshe holds even if she finds blood. If the doctor tells you that he came in with something, it's okay, because the ein pesichas hakever b'lo dam, this is not called. And the teretz is not called—I'm explaining to you—it's not called derech re'iyah. You saw that the smach dam is taka no good. Can I ask you a question? You know, I have a lot of issues in my mind about this sugya. One of them is that I have a problem, bichlal, why is it not a maka? If you hold that a maka b'toch hamikor is called a maka, which is a machlokes, we're going to learn in a few minutes, I mean, you made a maka, you penetrate, so that's a maka. What else is it? If you take a stick and you poke yourself and it bleeds, it's called a maka, no? If you open an opening that's not meant to be opened at this particular moment, I forced and it bleeds, and it bleeds because of it, but you could make a maka, though. Okay, so now the truth is you're stealing my— in other words, you're not letting me really talk, because I'm saying you're not— in other words, I'm bringing out a point which is legitimate. L'choira, why is this not a maka? And what I believe is ein pesichas hakever b'lo dam. Has nothing to do with the psichas hakever. The psichas hakever is a raya that there's going to be dam, which means dam nida will always protrude when there is a psichas hakever. It's not the psichas hakever that's gorem the dam nida. It has nothing to do with the psichas hakever itself which makes the blood. Psichas hakever will make that there should be dam. What's wrong? What's wrong? Huh? If I'm cold, I'm a nobody. I'm just—I'm saying I'm not. You hear? Psichas hakever, ein psichas hakever bloi dam, is not about the psichas hakever. I don't believe that the dam is nigram al yedei the psichas hakever. Nigram. You don't hear enough? Like what you explained with the mouth. The minute you said, I want to—I couldn't hold back. I mean, I can't hide it anymore. In other words, it's blood there. The blood is there. It's like when you open it up, mail comes out. It's not the opening of the mouth that caused me to bleed. If it was the opening of the mouth that caused me to bleed, that would be a maka. There's blood in the mouth. When you open up, mail, it spills out. You're not talking about, like— Exactly, exactly. It's not that. No, then it's maka. Excuse me, that would be a maka. Sorry, that's a maka. That is maka. If you're opening something that's supposed to be closed, that's— But that's a maka, and maka is mutar. So that's the way I'm trying to explain to you. Ein psichas hakever is a raya for dam. Okay? Why is it not a maka? The answer is, not since. The way Eim Sif Sakever bli dam works is that l'maaseh, the blood is there. And when you open, the meileh protrudes. You know that the dam nida will come out. What's the nafkamina? So when you say Eim Sif Sakever bloi dam, if you protrude less than a certain amount, less than a certain amount, it's not muchan that it's going to trigger off this. And if there is blood, I think it's still mutar. I don't see why you would say that it's not mutar. Because maybe that's dam maka. I have no problem with that being dam maka. Now you see the difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying? You just don't agree. Okay, you don't have to agree. So you have your medical office and your beis horaah. You'll pasken the way you want to pasken. It's not muchan what you're saying. That's all. What? What I'm trying to tell you is that this that you've come to the maskana that according to the shitos that hold that there's a problem only on a certain amount, if it's less than an amount, there's still dam. You say, well, if there is dam for sure. Yeah, but you see the dam. So even according to those shitos that has a certain shiur, it would be a problem. I'm not so convinced. I'm not very convinced about that.

That's literalmoshchuz, I think it's not that way, but all right. Even the cheres, but it's not muchach what you're saying. If it's bigger than 19 millimeters, that's called the psichas hakever. Every psichas hakever brings about a flow of blood. But it's not the psichas hakever itself that makes the dam. That's not what it is. It's when there is psichas hakever, it's gorem, it's causing, it causes. No, what I say is like this: when you make psichas hakever, that itself is not what bleeds, because then it would be a dam makah. That's a dam makah. That's not ours. You poke yourself with a shveferes, that's called a dam makah, and that's a machlokes. If dam makah, we can aser mitoch hamekor. Now we can argue mitoch hamekor for the side of the mekor. Even in the Rama that says there's a problem mitoch hamekor, we can argue about that. What's called toich hamekor. Fine. Either way, I'm trying to explain to you that the fact that the bleeding is here has nothing to do with the penetration, the puncture, the opening. It has nothing to do with that. It's the opening causes some, how shall I say it, some result, some reaction, that the dam that's there is going to come out. You're provoking. It's gorem dam. That's all here. There's no other side. Okay. No, I can. It's not. Make a hole, it's going to make blood. What is waiting to come out? That's makah. That's what he's asking. When you have psichas hakever... Okay, let me say it one more time clearly, because I want to start what we were supposed to do today, okay? Just what we were supposed to do last time. Ein psichas hakever bloi dam is not the psichas hakever which is bleeding. That's not what it is. It's not blood which is caused by puncture. It's not a puncture wound, okay? If it was, then it would be a dam makah. The way psichas hakever works is not the psichas hakever is the reason for the bleeding, but it's what causes. Or maybe I could even say one step further, is a raya. Let's use those words. It's a raya that there's going to be dam, that's all. And maybe it's not even a cause. What's the difference of shiurim? You're jumping. Therefore, it's not a dam makah. Now, the chiluk in the shiurim is very simple. You puncture less than a certain shiur does not mean it's not going to bleed. But what it does mean is that, let's say there's some result from psichas hakever that results in dam nidah, the result is not there if the wound that's—I'm sorry, if the hole, if the psichah is done less than a certain shiur. And if that's true, so even if the dam does come out on those less than 19 millimeters, it's not necessarily muchach that she's asurah. I'm sorry to tell you. The way you understand psichas hakever, if you learn raya, if you learn raya, so if you learn raya, if you learn raya, then ein hachi nami, if it bleeds, then it's a raya. He's right, Rav. If it's just a, p'sik reisha, it's going to bleed. So if it's less, so there's no mistama. But if you see it, you see it. That's not what it means. It's very possible that the p'sichas hakever itself gives off a, like by tashmish. Remember we learned this by reiach machmas tashmish? Sometimes when you move what's going on inside the body, there is a direct result that you'll see regel nidus, and then it goes through. So p'sichas hakever is an aggravation. It's an aggravation that will cause. You provoke. We learned this by—remember we said this from by reiach machmas tashmish? Either it's a choli, or the pshat is that it's—the choli is that you're provoking the womb somehow, and the mizdanzeh of the womb makes nidus come out. Kafatz. Remember we learned by kafatz. Remember, Rabbi? You remember such a thing? No. Now I would like very much to begin what we have to do today, okay?

Now, this is lahalacha. Lahalacha, it's very hard to be somech on the Chazon Ish, even though he was basra. Well, actually he was not; Reb Moshe was basra. According to his mahalach, then Reb Moshe is basra. Okay. But even he's not basra. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Okay, let's start. Next part of the seif is— How can freezing? I don't know how. You guys surviving? It's freezing. All right. Now— No, it's because of me? No. Not because of— everyone's in the room. I'm not going to say anything. It's not for me. It's because of me or for me? Did he say because of me? No, he said because Rabbei want to— No, I don't want. Okay, so someone will go over to him quietly, explain to him, not me. I'm cold. No, not I'm cold. Okay, leave me alone. That's all. You hear? Let's go weiter. You ready? V'chein, v'chein, im ra'asa dam d'chaticha. She saw peace, peace. Afilu hi mevukas. So if it's whole, for sure. Even if it's mevukas, cracked up, v'hadam b'beka'im— meaning if that's for me. I know what I'm trying to say is I don't care about anything. You're fine, okay. We learned this a long time ago, that we have to be fine no matter what. Okay, now. Afilu hi mevukas, yeah? Even if it's cracked, v'hadam b'pkoin, and the blood is in the cracks, v'einon shomea bivsaro, in a way that a tacky touches the flesh, tehorah, kivan she'ein derech lirois b'kach, because this is not the normal way to. So I want to discuss with you what is this halacha all about. Mevukas. What is this chatichah, chatichah mevukas? It says clearly tehorah. That's the Chachamim's shitah. That's shitas hachachamim. What's the reason for the Chachamim? Then we'll see, if we understand the halacha well, how it applies halacha l'maaseh for today. Meaning, I don't want you to think for one minute that if it's a PC type of blood, which means it's a thicker, you know, and you come with this type of bedikah, oh, the Shulchan Aruch says it's a piece and it's dam b'pkoin, this has nothing to do with texture of a marah. It has nothing to do with that. We're talking about a piece of something fell out. A piece, something, a piece, a meteor from the rechem, okay, fell out. And the shailah is, what is it? So Rashi, daf chaf aleph, says that the reason why she's tehorah is because this is not dam nidah. Dam nida does not come with a media. It doesn't come with pieces of flesh in it, okay? Not because it's liquid. The dam nida is not this. This is something else. See, that's what—it's exactly what I said he shouldn't say. You notice it's exactly what I'm trying to say. It has nothing to do with dam nida, fluid and not fluid. It has nothing to do with fluid. It has to do with this has nothing to do with nidus. This is just a piece of flesh fell out. It has nothing to—eino dam nida. There's no such thing. I don't know. It's not— That's your opinion. I don't know. That's not Rashi. That's not Rashi. Rashi says that it's eino dam nida. I just said Rashi. Rashi learns that this is not dam nida. You know what it is? It's something else. Something else is going on over here, nothing to do with nidus. Tosfos on daf chaf beis says the reason for this halacha is chatzitza, chatzitza, which means that since it is in the flesh, and it's the flesh touching the sides of the wall, the besorah, not the dam, therefore it's taka tahor.

According to this, it would come out that there should be a very big nafka mina if it's mevukas or not. Because if it's al chatzitza and it's cracked, don't come and tell me that it's not touching the wall. If it's inside, fine. But if it's mevukas, shouldn't it be fine? This is Rashi and Tosfos, okay? According to Rashi, it could be even if it's mevukas, because it's not dam nidah. According to Tosfos, it has to be chatzitza. It has to be dafka that it's not mevukas. The Rashba Kuti. What's the Rashba Kuti? The Rosh brings him down. Yosef discusses him at great length, and so others, and he uses the lashon that the Mechaber uses over here: eino derech re'iyah. This is not called derech re'iyah, and that's what you were referring to, specialtesen Shulchan Aruch. So we're paskening like the Rashba Kuti, which is what I explained to you last year. Fine. Now I want to explain to you that Rashi is lishitaso. I want to tell you an interesting chakirah that I have. According to Rashi, shfoiferes—what was the reason for shfoiferes? So we told you you have to do chatzitza, right? Shfoiferes has to do with chatzitza. So could Rashi, who held of chatzitza, held of this story of chaticha mevukas? He couldn't have held of mevukas, because like Tosfos explains, it's not a chatzitza in the case of mevukas. So that's why I believe Rashi had to come with a new pshat and say that it's what? Eino dam nidah, because Rashi is lishitaso in shfoiferes. The way Rashi learned shfoiferes, that it has to do with chatzitza, so therefore Rashi has to say a new pshat: eino derech nidah. Einoi dam nidah, excuse me, it's not dam nidah. By the second story, l'chein im ra'asa dam mechaticha, he had to change. He couldn't have learned like Tosafos chatzitza, because then according to him, right, it's the same case, right? It was mevukatz, it wouldn't work. Therefore Rashi had to come and l'shitaso change in the pshat. Okay. Yeah? Everybody's with me? According to Rashi, that is by the reason, which means he doesn't hold of derech re'iyah. He didn't speak about derech re'iyah, so he could have gotten away with the sarmi kaisi. But since he doesn't hold of derech re'iyah, so he learns that the case of shvoyferes is because of chatzitza, so they have to change the pshat by mevukatz, so it has to do with einoi stam. Okay. Why is it not einoi derech re'iyah? So this I'm going to ask Elon. Elon, you tell me. You're a posek. You are from the poskei hador, at least in your own mind. What? You're the basra, okay? Like in Iraq, they have a city called Basra. Okay, go ahead, yeah. I want to know, why is it called einoi derech re'iyah? No one calls. Einoi derech re'iyah. Okay, let me try the water for a while. It's good, it's all good. Now, why is it that it's einoi derech re'iyah? I want to tell you a me'oiradike chiddush. I believe, after knowing the sugya well, that once it could be einoi derech re'iyah for the way it came out, most— Nidah doesn't come with the midah, like I explained to you, and that's why I gave you the mashal, because I want you to hear even in the mashal. Could you imagine, I went with the teltel, my rebbe said that chatichas re'iyah is, nidah doesn't come with the midah. I'm crazy, right? But I'm saying something. I'm trying to explain to you that the taich is that it's mishuneh in the derech of the re'iyah. That's what I want you to understand. It's different in the derech of the re'iyah. You don't have chatichas that come with dam. Well, the pshat is possible that the eino derech re'iyah is because this is a sign that there's a makah. I want you to think. I'm not going to move till you pay attention to what I just said. You know, when a part of a wound falls down, it's possible that nidus is coming with it. It's possible. Rashi is learning eino dam nidah; it's not possible. Whatever it is, it's not nidah, okay? But it's possible other Rishonim are learning that it is nidah, right? Tzemach Tzedek is learning that it is nidah. He's not learning like Rashi. So what does he mean, eino derech re'iyah? Does he mean eino derech re'iyah because the way, the flow, is not supposed to be with pieces?

Or eino derech re'iyah because this is derech makah. Eino derech re'iyah. Is it eino derech re'iyah because the way it came out, or it's eino derech re'iyah because this is a makah? What do you think it is? Does it have to do with the flow? Weird. It's not a flow; it's pieces, right? I'll give you another example. Give you another example. When you use the lashon, it's raining, right? Would you say that it's raining bullets? A little bit, when it's raining down bullets. But if the bullets are coming from the side, would you call it raining? No, you don't call it. It's hailing bullets, they would say. It's an interesting chiluk. It rained down on us bullets, or we had hailing bullets. Hailing. When it's flat and it's not coming down, you're not going to use the lashon rain. It rained down on us bullets. Re'iyas dam does not come with pieces. This is not called raining down nidus flow. It's not. It's not what we would call a flow of blood because there's pieces in it, so it's not a flow of blood. Or the pshat is, since the makah goes like this, so the point is here's a makah, not a re'iyah. Okay. You'll soon see why I'm saying this, because the truth is I'm not saying it. Not at all. I will soon show you that the Beis Yosef says. I don't know if you read it in the Beis Yosef, but you'll have to read it in the Beis Yosef, and after you read in the Beis Yosef, you'll see that I was saying, and that you should have been saying the same thing. What do I mean? I'll explain to you what I mean. Does anybody know the reason that the Darkei Moshe brings down for this halacha? Does anybody know? What? Did you do the Darkei Moshe? So could you say? He says maka. He says. Maka on the makor. Comes along the Taz, and he asks a me'iridike, me'iridike kasha. What's the kasha of the Taz? If it's because of maka, so what do you need the reason of eino derech chriyah? I mean, he says a different reason. If the reason is eino derech chriyah, so why would you come along and say because of it's a maka? Could you read that inside, because I see everybody's looking like I'm crazy. Could you read it inside the Taz? First read the Darkei Moshe, and then read the Taz. First read the Darkei Moshe, and then read the Taz before I become angry. I'm already angry? No, not. What? Okay. So the Dak Moshe says it's a maka, and even though we're not toleh b'maka, but it's not toleh; we know for sure it's a maka. We see it's a maka. So this woman has a maka. We're not toleh b'maka. No, because you see what the old guys know that... Soon she'll get old. Okay, now listen carefully here. So the question is, the question is, toleh b'maka, teretz is, there's not a toleh; it's for sure a maka. You see, she's having pieces of her womb falling down over here, so something's wrong, right? She knows for sure it's a maka. Eses, the Makas says, you know the... says the Dak Moshe that since it's a maka, therefore eino derech re'iyah. Comes along the Taz and he says, you said two things now. You don't even realize you're saying two things which don't go together. If it's maka, then it's not derech re'iyah, and if it's derech re'iyah, it's not... maka. I know.

It is both. That's right. That's right. That's what I was trying to tell you. Go ahead. Say the Taz. Say the Taz. Yeah. Okay. Okay, the kid of the Taz comes along and says, Daka meisha, I don't know what you're talking. I don't know what you're saying. If it's maka, then derechriah. If it's derechriah, it's not. Comes along the basra, and I want to say, pashut pshat, pashut, pashut pshat. There's two zachin of maka. There's one thing of maka. Why is everybody sleepy? Why is everybody sleepy? Yeah. There's one thing of maka. There's one thing of maka, yeah, that the maka is the motzi dam. And then there's another thing of maka where the maka is goirem hotzaas dam. When the maka is goirem hotzaas dam, so you can't come and say it is a maka, which means that the bleeding is from the maka. The bleeding is from—we need different type of from. You know the word from? Goirem. There's two froms. From means that the bleeding is directly from, and from is that it was nigram al yedei. When the bleeding is the maka, avad it's maka. When the bleeding is nigram al yedei makah, what's that called? Eino derech re'iyah. Am I right in the documentation? Does this sound familiar, this last thing I just said? That when the makah causes an eino derech re'iyah because it causes the bleeding. Does that sound familiar? That's more exactly what I was explaining to you the whole time. That's my vort. That's my vort in this sugya. This is vort. Because I analyzed the situation. The situation is such that it's not the penetration itself that's going to bleed. It's the penetration, which is a makah, that's causing dam nidah to come. And if this is tahorah, then your case, rufi, is also tahorah. Forgive me. What's the difference? There's also dam. Is he right or wrong? Tell me the truth. Is he right or wrong? Why not? Why not? Who cares what Rafi said? Who cares what the sefarim say? But I'm right. I'm right. I make a pashut cheshbon. Make a pashut cheshbon. Lachein, tahorah. She's tahorah. The case of chatichah is bleeding dam nidah. Don't come—it's not Rashi. Rashi learned eina dam nidah. This is dam nidah. So what's your excuse, Rafi? What? Yeah, but it's bleeding. You said whenever you see blood, there's nothing more to talk about. No, it's not. It's coming from the makor. Dam nidah. You can't come say it's not dam nidah. I— you see, but you're not being honest. You see, that's where my problem— my problem. I don't care what you saw. Put on glasses, you'll see other things. But you have to admit that it's dam nida, right? The assumption. Otherwise you have rashi, there's nothing what to talk about, right? But you don't need any derech re'iyah. Make up your mind. Is it dam nida or it's not dam nida? So then leave me alone. Don't bother. Next. But it's not coming out from a kor. Dam nida doesn't come from a kor. It's coming from the eir lob, the tzikah which came from a kor. I promise you. Is it dam nida or not? Again, is it dam nida? And did it come—did it come—did it come out by itself? It came out because you stuck it with a pin. What do you mean? You stuck it with a utensil. Did it come out by itself? It came out by itself. You opened itself. Yeah, but that's not called makah because it's called derech rechem. What are you talking about? Because you were busy with whatever you were doing over there, so you didn't hear the Rambam. The Rambam says whenever it's coming from the inside out, that's called protruding normally. That's not called a makah. That's natural. I look at it and it's natural. Birth is called—I forgot, what was it called in the books? Natural childbirth. Thank you so much. And when you come and you do it through the—

I'm saying it's called unnatural. Those sections are unnatural. This is called a natural protruding. And you want to know something? I have a major chiddush for you. You ready? Is the dam that comes from leida dam nidah? Thank you. Have a nice day. That's exactly one of my raayos. I have a major raayah. It's not dam nidah; it's takanah dam tahor. That's the tumas leida, something else. But the dam nidah. Because there's also psichas hakever. The dam that comes from the leida is not a natural thing. The dam that comes from the psichas hamakor makes you tamei. The dam that comes from the psichas hamakor makes you tamei. But the dam that comes with the leida is not dam nidah. Think about it. You're not convinced? Why not? Okay, I don't mind, but you hear at least what I'm saying. You see the inventions that are going—there's inventions going on over here. I'll tell you even a bigger chiddush. You want to hear a tremendous chiddush? Where are you going? Where's he going? Are you with me? You like what I just said. I like what Rabbi said. Both of you like the whole conversation. He's very scared. He doesn't know. I like what you said, then he looks at his chavrusa, and I like what he said. I see your wife has you trained very well. The wife and your mother-in-law. Oh, I like very much, and I also like what you said. Yeah. Hi, vachasha. Don't, don't, don't. You're learning Torah. Can't ... Biggest nevalim in the world. Now listen carefully, yes? I'll tell you even a bigger chiddush. You ready? Bigger chiddush. Why everybody's closing the sefarim? We just started. What are you talking about? I'll tell you even a bigger chiddush, Rafi, and I want you to write this down. It's a tzayich that according to Baruch Tam, tell me, isha sheyashva al hamashber comes from where? Where is the mekor of it? Is there a Gemara like this? Huh? Okay, I'll tell you what I want. You ready? You ready? On a C-section, you listening? On a C-section, according to Baruch Tam, she won't be tamei dam niddah. Everybody will be. That's not true. Right? A C-section, she won't be. No C-section, no problem. Ein pesichas hakever bli dam. You opened up. What, you definitely opened the womb. What are you talking about? If the womb is open... I'm asking, does she bleed from the mekor? She's bleeding regularly though. Yeah, they bleed from below. Okay, the ... they cut it aside, take out the baby, and it bleeds. Then she bleeds. Yeah, there's no question. You got the C-section, you're seeing regular dam, you need pit. I'm not saying that you didn't see dam, but where did it come? I'm trying to tell you. I'm trying to tell you. According to Baruch Taam, according to Rav Baruch Taam, I want to be mechadesh on a C-section, you won't have dam. Because since it came from the outside, from the dam that's seen, even the regular dam is called dam makka. Again, but it didn't come from the outside. The blood still comes through here. The geirim of it was makka. According to him, you have to have both there. This is a regular pesach over here, and they cut here. She's gonna bleed from there, she's gonna bleed from there, a hundred percent. I didn't say— I just said you could contemplate that according to Rav Baruch Taam, it's still mutar. Why? Because this is still not called re'iyah, because the nigra makka. If you puncture in the stomach— It's not puncturing the stomach. Ones is not makkeh. Ones is the regular— needles, we explained this to you. There's things in the body that trigger niddus, but if makka triggers niddus, it's shayach that that's not called derech.

According to the darkei Moshe, he says one of them. I'm just telling you stuff that I want you to copy. You want to know if I would pasken like this? No, they'd run me out of—not only of America, they'd run me out of the world. I would have to be on a deserted island. Would I pasken? No. I'm just showing you the pshat in the darkei Moshe. We don't pasken the darkei Moshe. I just explained to you, because the pshat is psichas hakever is gorim a regular nidah. It doesn't make a difference. Psichas hakever is gorim nidus blood from the makor. That's what it's gorim. It's not maka blood. I keep on explaining to you. It's not because you punctured—it's not a wound, because if it was a wound, there would be nothing what to talk about. It's not about a wound. And that's the machlokes if palinan b'makomitoch hamakor. Maybe there's no such thing. Even if it's a makah, yeah, but it's from the makor. That's called nidah. אידך, no, there's something special called nidah. And if it's a makah b'toch hamakor, it's not nidah blood, it's makah blood. That's the machlokes if it should come the same ina makor, if it's nidah or not, if it's a makah. That's exactly what the machlokes is. The machlokes is, it's a makah, but maybe it doesn't make a difference, because any blood that comes from the makor is nidah blood. Haidin, there's nidah dam. There's such a thing called dam nidah. According to Rashi, there's such a thing called dam nidah, even if when the blood is coming down with pieces, the blood is there. And therefore, if you make a bedikah, you make a check, a doctor puts in a utensil, and even if, even if it is bleeding, if you hold that's not called psichas hakever, so then it's a makah. I don't care if it's bleeding. It makes no difference to me. According to Rashi, it makes no difference. That's this case. Let's move along. Comes along the Taz, the Acharonim, and they ask, What do you mean? We're not toleh b'makkah in the mekor, says the Aruch HaShulchan, meiri k'dei keteres, meiri k'dei... Yeah? Aruch HaShulchan. You ever hear of the Aruch HaShulchan? Good. Are you with me? Are you following me? Why? Are you having a hard day? No. My fault? No. Just not in. Okay, okay, okay. See, I take everything like as if you're my own child. You see, the same way I worry about my kid's homework, I worry about the guy's learning. The same attitude. Okay, now, let me tell you what we're discussing. We're discussing a simple thing. This piece is not falling down. Something's stuck with this woman, right? So if she's sick, then it's a makah. What happened? Something's wrong. It's just not normal, right? Is it called natural? Well, you see it's not... But, I mean, whose is it? Chatichah has to be a body. You don't know what it is. Give me a little more time afterwards to get to that, what it might be. It might be a miscarriage. I don't know. We're not even holding there yet, what it is. We're not even holding. But whatever it is, something's wrong. Maybe it's a makah. That's the kasha, and that's what the Taz and all the mefarshim are asking. Maybe it's a makah. Maybe talina b'makah. Maybe there's a makah. So the Darkei Moshe says, Yes! It's a makah. So the documentation—yeah, it's a makah, says the Beis Yosef, but we're not toleh the makah. It's not true. We don't accept the makah, says the Aruch HaShulchan. Of course we don't accept the makah. That's when there's a makah in the mekor that is being motzi dam. When the makah, the mekor, is motzi dam, then we don't say makah. But where the mekor itself is dam, where the mekor itself is falling, bleeding, that's not called a makah in the mekor. That's called a makah of the mekor. You know what? Let's read the Aruch HaShulchan. I'm a fan of the Aruch HaShulchan because I'm showing you what it means to, how to say, to understand, have a picture of the halacha. Did you understand this last answer? How does it figure with a puncture? There's a puncture that causes makah, that causes bleeding, and then there's just bleeding. Meaning, the makah is—it's not the makah from the mekor. You know, he wants to say yesod: when the mekor is where it's supposed to be, and a makah causes it—yeah, it's men hei. Okay, who wants—you know.

Let's read. He says like this. The Taz and the Rama, according to him. According to him. He says like this. Come, you gotta read it for him. The kavanas lei brura. Go ahead, read. The kavanas lei brura. Read it loud. You're saying a shiur now. The kavanas lei brura. His kavanah is clear, you hear? Listen to the Aruch HaShulchan, a brilliant chiddush. Makeh shemkorbo mikri rak, im hamekor. Al mako. Makah min hamakor is only when the makor is supposed to be where it is, and grada there's a makah that's being motzi dam. That's called makah min hamakor. Go ahead. V'nisdabek makah sham, d'basar shebamakor, d'hamakah hu milsa achrina. And the makah is something else, a wound in the makor. Go ahead. V'lima lo makor atzmo hu hamakeh, lo shayach likroso makah, ki eino bimkomo. V'sof sof adam kulo min hamakor. Dayo shemeta'adino hadam sheb'soch hamakor, aval lo hadam hazav mehamakor. It's unbelievable stuff. I don't think you understand. This might be, this might be, you hear, one of the biggest chiddushim the Aruch HaShulchan ever said. One of the biggest things he ever said was this thing. He says like this, you hear? Chalilah l'Rabbeinu haBeis Yosef litos b'zeh. Chalilah to come and say the Beis Yosef made a mistake. The kavanas lei brura. Why? Because what's bothering him? Because the Beis Yosef comes along and says we're not toleh b'makah. Yet the Rama says we are toleh b'makah. In kuf pei zayin, se'if hei, he says clearly we are. So what, the Beis Yosef made a mistake? Chalilah lita'os. You know what his attack on the Rambam is? What do you mean, we're not toleh l'makkah? That's the Beis Yosef. That's his attack on the Darkei Moshe. We're not toleh l'makkah. So then everybody says, yeah, he made a mistake. He forgot that the Rambam doesn't hold like that. Chalilah lita'os b'zeh, chalilah lita'os b'zeh, v'kavanaso le'brur d'makkah sheb'makor hu mikocho, mikocho. V'nis'aveh makah shem bebasar sheb'makor, d'hamakah hu milsa achriti, aval im hamakor atzmo hu hamakah, lo shayach likro oso makah, im ki eina bimkomah. Sof sof hadam hu min hamakor, v'daya shematerin hadam sheb'soch hamakor, aval loi hadam hazav mehamakor. Unbelievable. Unbelievable, huh? You know what the Beis Yosef is saying? The Beis Yosef is saying is when the makor itself is sick and bleeds, that's not called a makah. If it's a makah which makes it bleed, that's called a makah. That's the Rambam said that there could be kashrus. Where the makor is sick and bleeding, that's not called makah. So for example, if there's a cancer, chalilah, in a womb, a woman has ovarian cancer, that'd be called makah mehamakor. According to the pashut pshat, it is a makah mehamakor. According to Aruch HaShulchan, that's— That's regular dam niddah, because the makor itself is... Why does the Torah call it ramah? Why is the Torah called ramah, in which case? Because it's falling inside the terechis. It's falling inside the terechis. In other words, where I puncture the rechem, yeah, where I puncture the rechem and it bleeds, that's maka min hamakor. And that would be mutar. This dam that comes from... where the makor itself is sick and bleeding, that's called regular dam. Unbelievable. I can't explain to you, I don't know why he brings it. Does he bring this...