Hilchos Vestos: Onah Beinis, Veses Kavua, and the Thirty-Day Chashash

Transcript

Iman, kuf pei tes. ... nosman, nosis, shenizkeh lilmod, v'shizkeh lilmod strong, the entire winter. ... finish Hilchos Niddah, b'kfitzas haderech, b'kfitzas haderech. Okay. Din eishes sheyesh lah veses kavua v'she'ein lah veses kavua. The dinim of an isha that has a veses kavua and v'she'ein lah veses kavua. Now, when you look at the hakdamah of the Mechaber, it seems very unassuming, like he's not—he's not halachos. A woman has veses kavua and a woman who doesn't have a veses kavua. I believe, I feel, I think that the reading of the hakdamah is very crucial in understanding se'if aleph, and I'll explain to you why. In se'if aleph, we're going to talk about אונס ביינונית. Talk about אונס ביינונית. And it's mashma that there's a chiluk between if she has a veses kavua—you know what these things are, a veses kavua, veses she'eino kavua—there's a chiluk if she has a veses kavua and if she doesn't have a veses kavua, yeah? Is אונס ביינונית a din in an isha sheyesh lah... Veses she'ein lo veses kavua, or is oina beinonis a din? And gzera, someone that has a veses kavua is not mechuyav to be choshesh for oina beinonis. Let's start again. I just said something very, very bombshell. I just dropped the bomb. The only thing is, it's not a cheftza chashud; it's a cheftza chashuv. I'm giving you a very important piece of information, yeah? What is it? Isha sheyesh lo veses kavua v'she'ein lo veses kavua has special dinim. In other words, the isha without her veses is mechayev certain things to do, certain bedikos, certain days to keep. Does it mean that oina beinonis is one of them? Or the pshat is there's halacha called oina beinonis, and that halacha of oina beinonis is not mechayev to someone that has a veses kavua. Which means it's not the din of an isha she'ein lo veses. She'ein lo veses, bechoshesh for certain days; oina beinonis is not one of those days. There's halacha called oina beinonis. And gzera, oina beinonis is a chiyuv only for a woman she'ein lo veses, but it's not the dinim of an isha she'ein lo veses. From the lashon of the Mechaber, it is mashma that it is, and that's what I meant when I said that din. Dinei isha sheyesh lo veses kavua v'she'ein lo veses kavua, so either he's just a heading and there's nothing deeper in his words, I don't know. I don't know the chiluk between. V'she'ein lo v'sheyesh lo, by oina beinonis, is because this is the dinim takah of an isha sheyesh lo v'ein lo. Meaning, it's the isha she'ein lo veses that's mechayev to keep oina beinonis. Did you just understand what I said? Not so much, not so much. Okay. You know what oina beinonis is? Every 30 days. Beinoni is the medial, the intermediate, the average, okay? Average woman. And because this is the average woman, Chachamim said day 30 is the time to check. Does that mean she'ein lah veses kavua is chayev to check certain days and this is one of them? Or is this halacha called oina beinonis? And oina beinonis is not mechayev to someone that has a veses kavua. But it's not one of the days that an isha she'ein lah veses kavua is mechuyev to check. There's a chiyuv, there's a day Chazal picked called oina beinonis.

If you have vest kavua, you patur from that day. We'll soon see why I'm saying this. Now let's read. Kol isha she'ein lah veses kavua, chosheshes l'yom lamed l'rei'osa, shehi oneh beinonis. Chosheshes. On the other days that she has to keep, the other vestos, the other onos, does it use the word chosheshes? Yeah, show me. סעיף ב'. Keitzad kovea, you can show the v'nei gimel zmanim, pa'am achas, ... chodesh, chalav, chosheshes. Okay. So the Mechaber uses the lashon chosheshes l'yom lamed l'rei'osa. The same way he discusses other onos. Is that clear in the Mechaber? Is that a legitimate fair diyuk that I'm making? We'll soon see why I'm saying this. We'll soon see the significance. But I'm asking one more ha'arah, just to understand: what does the word chosheshes mean? I mean, just say it's asur b'tashmish. Chosheshes l'yom... here, chosheshes. I mean, chosheshes mei'lo what? Yeah, but say it. I mean, just say it. It's mashma that the choisheshes, and later on he even says that, choisheshes, v'asur l'shamesh kol oso ha'ona. The word choisheshes, choisheshes. So, A, I want to point out that the ona beinonis is coined, phrased, the same way he phrases the regular onot, the regular vestot, and that it's not asur l'shamesh on that day, but choisheshes, she's choishesh. Choisheshes, she's choishesh. Is vest is vadai, is vest is safek. So obviously, from the lashon choisheshes, it's mashma vest is a safek. Now we learned this: it's vestos de'oraisa d'Rabbanan, only d'Rabbanan. So maybe since it's only d'Rabbanan, so we use the word choisheshes. Since it's not issur issur, it's only d'Rabbanan, so the word choisheshes applies. She has to be careful, which means there's a din that she shouldn't do it. Imaskim Rafi? Imaskim. O dilma, or maybe the word choisheshes is not because of the d'Rabbanan, but the word choisheshes is to define the inyan of vest, which means is, what is vest? Is vest the pshat an issur l'shamesh, or is it more choisheshes l're'iyah? Mimeila, if a person is choishesh l're'iyah, it's asur l'shamesh. What is vest telling me? Lachshosh l're'iyah, or is vest telling me asur l'shamesh? What is vest telling me? And once we know what vest is telling me, choisheshes l're'iyah, we'll understand that the same is by ona beinonis. Daf a eina beinus, use the lashon of chosheshes. Al kol panim, riya she'einah beinus, l'stam nashim. Since the eina beinus, l'stam women. V'im yesh a veses kavua, zman yadua, michaf lechaf and michafei lechafei, chosheshes l'zman ha-yadua. Okay. If she has a veses kavua, she doesn't have to worry about it. This is the shita of the Ramban and others. The Rambam doesn't bring this. Interesting that the Shulchan Aruch paskens not like the Rambam. The Rambam doesn't bring eina beinus. Very interesting. You knew that the Rambam doesn't bring eina beinus? Of course you did, because every sefer probably points out how you learn the Gemara. Good, it's all very nice. V'al kol panim, it ain't there, okay? How does we—what do you mean we? Okay. Now, I know that there's a discussion in the outside world that there's a certain posek that wasn't like, wouldn't he went. Yisroel is back in Lakewood, and he was not in Lakewood, he isn't in Lakewood, he's coming to Lakewood, will be in Lakewood, whatever. So he's the one that says, No eina beinus today. Everybody thinks that he's the only one that—

You know that there are others that say that also. Who? The Rosh. You see, the Rishonim doesn't bother me so much. The Raivid, it doesn't bother me so much. I'm talking about poskim. I'm saying, l'maaseh, why am I telling you that the Shulchan Aruch HaRav says that being that not everybody is Shulchan Aruch HaRav, see, that not only that it's not only one person, the Rambam, the Rambam said, the Rambam, the Raivid. Meileh, mi sherotze l'hakel b'zeh, ein limchos b'yado. Wow. Should we see that inside? We should see that inside. Yeah, that the halacha, the mechaber, is lo negea, lo negea. Isn't the Rambam then machmir and says you have to check every other day because of second day? Shulchan Aruch HaRav, kuntres acharon, seif katan aleph. Kein hu lashon haRamban b'hilchos... בלשון מורה בפשיטות, דהוא יום למדן מרי הראשונים. Tur, וכן דעת כל האחרונים, ... פירוש השולחן ערוך, not this one, ... באמת, the Ramban ... Chei daas haraiv, chei daas haro. V'hilkach, you hear? You listening? Ein limchos b'yad hamekilin, kivan shehayu lahem mamash yismochu, v'nisrat l'hakel b'divreihem. Yisom b'shulchan Aruch harav. There's a very big difference, though. What is the difference? The Shulchan Aruch Harav is saying, because there's other Rishonim that pasken different. This p'sak in Likutei is that even according to the poskim that pasken that there is eino beinos, not b'zman hazeh. So I want you to understand the difference, that either the pshat is that there's other Rishonim that argue, or the pshat is that b'zman hazeh it's not applicable. Why? Because stam nashim don't have— Now, I'm just wondering, what exactly is the problem making such a statement? What's the problem making such a statement? If in metzius, the stam nashim don't have thirty, some have twenty-five, some have thirty-six. The problem is, I'll tell you what the problem is, that you need to prove—and I'll use the words Reb Delsky uses in his tapes a lot of times—you need to prove to me, A, that you know exactly what was in those days. You need to prove to me that you know exactly what it is today, and you need to prove to me that the difference that you're making between those days and these days... is apt, okay? And not everybody who decides that they want to make a dimyon is necessarily correct. You have to have a raya, you have to have Rishonim, Acharonim. Now, I heard Grada that he has a long teshuva proving it. That's irrelevant right now, because I didn't see the teshuva, but from his sefer it's pretty obvious that it's a blanket statement. There's no—it's not true. I don't know, you can't really argue. It's wrong body. I don't care. I understand all the time. Everybody knows who it is, okay? Right. So the point is, the point is that maybe there's a teshuva, I don't know, but without a teshuva you can't say, You know what was when the Shulchan Aruch wrote it. You know, because he said the stam Nashim shloshim. So let me ask you a question. First of all, could be he's quoting from the time of Chazal. You think that he's saying right now, as I'm writing it, it's that way? I don't know if he's saying that. Why do I know he's saying that? I don't know. All he's saying is that—huh? I want to tell you another thing also. He's just quoting the words of Chazal. Do poskim today also use that terminology? Now, I want to talk to you, because if you understand my shiur well, you'll understand why it's really not a raya from saying the words stam Nashim shloshim.

And it's possible that all he's doing is just quoting the klal of stam nashim l'shloshim yom. It's not muchach that it's anything more than quoting the lashon of stam nashim l'shloshim yom. Now, I want you to understand ha'orah. Let's say you're going to say that it's not so by the stam nashim, the nah l'shloshim yom. So why don't you find out what the stam nashim is? Why not do research and start calculating what most women... I don't know if that's true. I don't know if there is. I don't know. But you did the research? Maybe you should do personal research. I'm serious. Yeah, but you're a small numbers. What do you mean? Look, see in terms of numbers over here, small percent. So, I mean, you have to have the statistics. I don't know. I'm saying is don't say if this is—it's not this, but maybe it's something else then. Huh? Maybe something else. Unless he's saying, ad rabba, there's no such thing at all. I don't know. I'm not so sure that that's what... Okay. I just threw all this out as an introduction. Now I'd like to learn a little, okay? So again, we're medayek that there's a din of an isha sheyesh lah veses and a din of an isha she'ein lah veses. We will also medayek that chosheshes, right? Chosheshes, that it's mamash like a regular ones, in the same language, used the same language that's used by regular ones, and that is that it's chosheshes. And that Rambam doesn't bring it, and there's some say even for those that do bring the ones, it's not nogea bizman hazeh, okay? Because the metzius changed. Now I want to discuss what happens if there is a ves kavua, that the Shulchan Aruch says that she's not choshesh for the eina beinus. So, se'if katan aleph, the Taz says, Nu, chesheshes, l'zmana yedua, peirush. So who wants to read it? Kol oinos haveses, yeah? Kemo shekasav se'if kuf hei daled, se'if beis. ... bishvil pamecha chesheshes, ... ein tzarich lashash l'stam ones shloshim yom, ela l'zman hayadua l'chud, kivan sheyesh lah veses kavua. So you don't have to be choshesh, right? So the Tur is learning clearly in the Mechaber there's no reason to be choshesh. Does anybody want to read se'if katan hei in the Taz? Kivan she'avra onasa muteres, af al gav d'b'siman kuf vav paskak, v'ein lah veses, tzricha bedikah lifnei tashmish, kan mairi sheyesh lah kvar veses, ela sheshinta achshav b'veses chadash, v'lo kavaso, gimel paamim, right? So this is going back on hei, right? Yeah. One second. Yeah, one second, hei, yeah. Where do you see hei here? Ah, they changed this. So you see, they make the daled here. What's this daled? No, this daled is for the sha. You know, the new Shulchan Aruch, it makes me very nervous. No, because everything is black, bold, it's different, it's confusing, right? Yeah. What's the pshat? Wow. Okay. You know what? Maybe the oilam is not going to know daled, it'll be too confusing. Okay, you know what? Okay, let's start with this. There's a machlokes Rishonim. The Shulchan Aruch is paskening, baiter, that if it's veses kavua, there's a veses kavua, what happens? There's no din of onah beinonis. The Rashba, you know, says not like that, right? You're aware that other Rishonim say not like that. Are you aware of those Rishonim? You want to read those Rishonim? Like this, the people will see that I'm not making it up. What? What? What about the shita that holds—

Sheyesh lah vestah. Go ahead, go ahead. Huh? Rashi. Sheyotz Rashi. Okay. What's the reason? What's the reason that you have to be choshesh? No? What's the reason? I mean, if shelati, she has a vestah, 26, 27, right? So obviously she didn't see, because if she saw before, so there's no eina beinonis, right? She's a niddah. If she saw at 26, could you come and say she has to keep 30? She anyway has to keep 30. So the story is that she didn't see, okay? What's the reason to be mechayev her in eina beinonis? So the Rishonim use the lashon, Michilai olam lo tira. You saw that lashon, Michilai olam lo tira? Go ahead, read it, read it. Go ahead. You know, Rafi, you have to help. Go ahead, go ahead. Oh, afilu ish — no, it's not like what he wrote over here. Rashi paskens that she'ein lah vestah. Or v'sheyesh lah vestah, it's the same. Halachah is that what? Both. Halachah is — ah, the reason is because it can't be. It can't be that she's not going to see, which means, avan shehul see. So why are we in doubt? Eina beinonis. It's a good svara. It's a good svara. Why does the Rashba argue on this? Why does the Shulchan Aruch pasken against this? Good svara. Eventually she's gonna say, Havai lah. You have to know this, yeah? She's pregnant? If she didn't see, usually she covers, and she didn't. Not הזמן. So, olam'sh she's not pregnant. Maybe today. He's asking that, notice, he's saying that those Rishonim argue on the chiluk olam lo tir. You know what he's learning? He's learning that there's no cheshbon of chiluk olam lo tir. Bad? Not bad. What do you say? What do you say? What are you saying? You like it? Gerushon? Huh? Rabbeinu Gershom. Me'or haGolah, me'or haGolah, with a mem at the end, with a hei at the end. Me'or haGolah. Okay. So the question is, the question is — I just woke up. You know what it is? The olam just sleeping. I'm not allowed to sleep because I... Okay, here, it's a good... Maybe, maybe. I'm maskim. I'm maskim to his svara. I'm maskim, I'm maskim me'achuz. That could be the pshat is that there is no svara of chiluk olam lo tir. So then what does the other one say? What, she's not pregnant? I mean, they're finding about what? What are they fighting about exactly? Mechteisa. I mean, it's pashut if she has kavua, what, she's not pregnant? No. What's the shaila in percentages and sfeikos and numbers? How did you, Rufi, explain the machlokes? I thought the other side is once you don't know when exactly it's coming... But in a benes is also when you don't know when it's coming. Right. Right. Right. Something went wrong. Once something went wrong, so I don't have to be concerned about exactly the 30 days. She already established she's not one of the 30-day people, right? She's in day 25. Yeah, but one day 25, she's not like that, though. You see something happens. Okay, there's one time something happened. It doesn't mean that she has to be concerned. But that's just two times. I have a better question. What happens according to that shita? Shulhani, let's say she did see through 30, she'll have to do haflagah, but she has a veses kavua. Let's say she saw 25, 25 for four years straight. Then she saw 30 and 30. She saw 30. It's not okay. And then again 25, 25, 25 for months. And then one time she didn't see 25. Do you have to worry about 30 according to the shita when she has a veses kavua? You don't have to worry. Why not? Chilayom lo tira. Now she didn't even do three times that she goes from 25 to 30, that that itself would be a veses. According to your psak halacha, it's very good. Just don't move to Lakewood.

Maybe. Once, once this, once something goes wrong, who said 30? It's not vechi lo olam lo tira; according to you it's vechi bishloshim tira. So the teshuva, the response to vechi lo olam lo tira is vechi bishloshim tira. Could you explain, Reb Moshe, the new Reb Moshe? We had an old Reb Moshe. The old Reb Moshe was Reb Moshe Feinstein, and the one before him was Reb Moshe Rabbeinu. Now we have Reb Moshe—what's your last name again? Who? Aroni. Oh, Moshe Aaron, Moshe Aroni. So Moshe Aroni b'chei hada. Could you explain to him what we just said? But could you say it like you're saying, share, like I'm like, if you need coffee, I'll give you some of my coffee. Could you give—say it, no? Do you know what I'm talking about? I just want to know, vechi lo olam lo tira, and the other צד holds, can lo olam lo tira, that's what he holds? No, I don't think. ...she also has to worry ... She missed her veses. Nothing happened. She's 23 days, missed her veses, now 30's coming up. She should be choshesh now. We pasken halacha that we don't have to be choshesh. But there she studies, Rashi holds that it sounds like that you do have to be choshesh. She missed 23, and worries about 30. The reason that they explain in Rashi is because she's going to see at some point. That's not the end of her menstruation. She's going to see for sure. But some say yes. Some say—Gershon's saying yes. Gershon's saying she's pregnant. Maybe, I don't know, because I'm being serious. He's saying a vort, maybe. Vechi lo olam lo tira, but maybe she's pregnant. What do you have to be choshesh for? Maybe. I didn't see this. I never saw anybody say this, by the way. Huh? Right, Teretz is because she's probably pregnant, but how come they don't say it here so much? I didn't see it here. All right, but whatever, let's say either like Gershon said, or he's going to say a new chiddush. What's the new chiddush? Other ways to say that even though you're right, she didn't see at some point. Who said thirty? Who said thirty? Maybe she should look every day. I'm asking you, and what would be—continue and explain to what I asked you in that case, on the case, yeah? No, but first finish telling him this, yeah. What, that even though you're right, she's going to see at some point, there's no guarantee she'll see exactly at thirty, so therefore you shouldn't be worried on thirty any more than any other day, like a regular day. That's all. So I asked you, what happens in case she sees for fifteen years she saw on twenty-two, and then all of a sudden she missed twice, and it went to thirty. Takah went to thirty. So you know that, but she wasn't kavua. She wasn't kavua to ever jump to thirty. So then she has, again, goes back to her kvius twenty-two for another five years, and then she misses. According to him, who said thirty? Who said? Who said? According to the... who said? Who said? Okay, I'm going to introduce to you a shtikel lomdishe vort, which I hold is the yesod of the entire sugya, and I'm going to show you how every step of the way this theme will come up and help us explain the Shulchan Aruch and the shitas hacholekes on the Shulchan Aruch, which means leshitasi, the Shulchan Aruch leshitasi, and the das hacholekes is leshitasi, and that is as follows. I ask you a question: what is אונס? Is אונס a regular אונס? And the pshat is that you have to be choshesh for it. And since stam nashim, and therefore you're probably part of stam nashim, is that what it's about? Oy dilma, oy dilma, oy dilma. The reason to be choshesh, or actually the reason to be poresh, is not the chashash shema it's going to come today. Since it's shema going to come, period, and we don't know where to put it, so you put it on shlishi. Shteit in the heilige Torah, v'zatim is bnei Yisrael mitumasam sheyiparish; there's halacha to be poresh before the... What happens when I don't know? What happens when I don't know where it is? What do I do? So even the ta'ina is, I'm worried that you, Mrs. so-and-so, you're going to see on the thirtieth day. Or the pshat is, Mrs. so-and-so, why would I think on the thirtieth day? What do you have with the thirty days? No, the pshat is, since stam nashim are on thirty days, so the din of prishah, סמוך לווסת.

will be set on the day that most women have. Now, I don't like— you see, I'll tell you what I don't like about you. No, actually, I liked about you, but I don't like about what you're saying, because I don't believe it started with your story. I believe it started with a story of a woman that has no kavua at all. It begins— eina beinonis begins with a woman that has no veses at all. What do you say? That's how it begins. It begins with a takanah called eina beinonis for when we don't know when. So if you don't know when, and you have to be poresh before some time, so Chazal decided that the lamed yom is the stam lamed yom, and therefore we'll take the din of yeshartem and we'll say it's lamed yom. Now, the question: should we apply it in a case where a woman has a veses kavua, where there's really no reason to believe that she's a lamed yom? There's no cheshbon to believe that. Start again. Avad the rufi. You start the way you want to start it, meaning if you want to start it by this case, the kashya is she already was poresh; she was poresh before the first time. It's an אונס. The din of eina didn't start with this woman. It starts with a woman that has nothing. He decided the אונס is vest hachodesh. I'm talking about a woman who has nothing. She right now told you... Forget about... I'm talking about an 18-year-old woman that doesn't have any kemuah. The question is, what do we do? We מסakin that an isha she'ein lah vest, there's a new vest. We mechadesh a new vest, and that is stam nashim. Is it because she might see? No. It's not so much she. It's not so much she. It's to mekayem the din of hishartem es mitzvas prishah... Why are we more machmir? Oh, I don't know. We have to discuss that. That's big talk. You just threw me to the end of the shiur, to the end of the topic, and I'm not finished yet. We just started. What am I trying to say with this? I'll tell you what I'm trying to say. If you learn, if you learn that you need a chash... If you learn you need a chash, if you learn you need a chash that she will see, and that's enough to put her 30 days, so this woman will see, and we gave her 30 days. But if the pshat is you need a chash that she's like the ro'eh and she will see on the 30 days, this isha doesn't have to. Those Rishonim hold there's nothing to worry about. Won't she to learn? Ainah beinis is that since she's rov of the world, and rov sees on this day, so we have to worry that she'll see on this day. So mainly, you know what comes out according to that? If a woman has a veses kavua, she skipped it, why would I think that she sees? She's not part of it. The din says it's not that we think she might see on that day, but there's a halacha l'never a woman is going to see, and we don't know when she's going to see. The din of einah beinis is she probably will see on that day, or is the din of einah beinis when you don't know when, so to mekayem the chazakah of you don't know any moment when, thirty days. I don't like girsa. So she's a person that's expecting a veses. So mainly the kvius is thirty days. I didn't tell you she's expecting it today. No one said she's expecting on the thirtieth. Any expecting veses from a woman where you don't know when it's coming, Chazal were mesaken thirty days. That's the veses. Second shitah.

But like what you said, it has to be she's expecting on the 30th. So since roiv nashim get it on the 30th, so she's part of roiv nashim. Okay. Yeah? You hear what I'm saying? I'm saying good. Moshe Raini, I'm saying very good, Moshe Raini. You hear what I just said? You heard? You heard? So why are you just like this? Huh? You're not here? You look like you're here. Okay, now, let's say into army for a few days. You won't have all these problems. I have it at home already. You have the army at home? The general that screams at you is very shvach. You need a real general. In my house, you get a general. Okay. Now, Daniel, we're gonna go one step further. The case of veses kavua that she has, and therefore she doesn't need to be makpid on eina beinonis. He brings a case, no? V'im yesh lo veses kavua lizman yadua. So just say, a veses kavua l'zman yadua. We know what veses l'zman yadua is. But for some reason, the Ran, Beis Yosef, the genius of Tzfas, decided that he has to give me an example. For example, mi'chaf l'chaf, and that's not enough, because in case you're stupid, you don't understand mi'chaf l'chaf, so he tells you, o mi'chaf hei l'chaf hei. I'm surprised you didn't say, oh, maybe chav gimel to chav gimel, chav daled to chav daled, maybe chav daled to chav daled. What is he? That's it, zman yedua, I'm finished. Just say, ves kavua. Okay. What would be if the ves kavua is after the onesh? Thirty-five? Let's see. Notice he brings the case that the ves kavua is what? Before. That's why, Miranbei Yosef, Miranbei Yosef, and that's why we are just, you know, whatever you want to call yourself, I'll leave it to your own imagination what you are. No, I'm saying that maybe very good, maybe ... talmidei ... I don't know, whatever you want to feel you are. Okay. I know that I'm not the ... There's a reason for it. This is one of the reasons. You see the way every word, every word is talked in lashon here? Okay. Now, in your ... now of course there's others that say also, but let's get down to the bottom. Okay. Says you don't have to be choshesh for onesh. She's an isha, has a ves kavua. ... is medayek this diyuk that I made. No, he's mashma that davka the ves kavua is before. If the ves kavua is after, you have to be choshesh. Bemai cholkin? What's the yesod of the machlokes? It says clearly the case of ves kavu was before the einabeis. What happens if it's after? So Moshe says it doesn't make a difference. He doesn't hold of the idea. No. The chachamim says yes. Why? That if it's after, she's not to be choshesh. That's right. Mitam what? Oh, so what's the machlokes? I never came and told you, and I hold this so emes, what I told you a moment ago. We never said that a woman has to feel or anticipate on the thirtieth to be choshesh for the thirtieth. Any woman who anticipates, any woman that's choshesh for a re'iyah has to keep the thirtieth. Even if she's kavua? A re'iyah just established before thirty. Oh, because once it's before thirty, so then the ta'anis by thirty already she's not a woman that anticipates a re'iyah. What if she didn't see during her period, now thirty comes along? Oh, so that's why I said that's depending on this machlokes, right? Something depending on this. Some say yes.

She's a woman who expects a re'iyah. If thirty comes around and she's expecting a re'iyah, she has the din of ones b'nes. It's not that she... That's right. Ones b'nes is a day, coming about a day. The thirty day has to be kept for a woman who's choshesh. The other way around, not. The other way around, because then she's not choshesh. Or unless she missed it, so then she is choshesh. That's what these poskim are saying. These poskim are saying it has nothing to do with she has to see on the re'iyah on that day. You see that even if she's not anticipating on shloshim, on shloshim she's an isha that still is anticipating a re'iyah. It's the halacha of ones b'nes. Why shloshim then? One bigger chiddush, though. This chiddush is where you know for sure which day it will be. The first case was a case where you don't know if it's going to be on the thirtieth, but it could be on the thirtieth. Here you have a case where there's a kvius that it's not even going to be on the thirtieth, but af al pi... Right, I hold mamash taluy in this set of machlokes. Ones b'nes is not about anticipating a re'iyah on shloshim. That's what you see. Ones b'nes is not because b'emet yesh chashash al shloshim. Because here there's no chashash al shloshim. Rather what? It's any isha supposed to see? Because the chachamim kavea b'shloshim, because it's stam nashim. It's a chiddush, no? Wild stuff. How else would you learn this? Rabbi, I don't get it. If you're saying this— There's no pshat. If you don't say what I'm saying, there's no... Everything is in the words of the Beis Yosef, Rabbi, right? I'm not saying anything. I'm just telling you the chiddush. The din is based on the Beis Yosef. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but that's the chamasda. I know, but it's according to the Beis Yosef. If we don't see them, if my chaver, if I don't see it, I'm not choshesh for thirty. I don't know if that's true. That's also the... I don't know if it's true. Wasn't it ... after thirty? That's one ... Then I have to be... Yeah, but Beis Hillel brings two shitas. What happens if it was before? The Rashi sheet is... Here it doesn't say. Maybe ask me... Rabbeinu... 25 to tell you only if you have a ... not only if it's before the ... Right, then you don't have to be... After ... I'm talking about a different case. The first case is a different story. First case is she missed what her kvius was. Her kvius was before, but she missed. So now what? ... But I'm asking you, those Rishonim that hold... Let's say she missed 25. She was supposed to be 25, she missed 30, should it be because of machlokes Rishonim? So I'm asking you, this is machlokes... This is machlokes Rishonim. If she was supposed to be on the 25th and she didn't see, it's a machlokes Rishonim. Rashi holds it's enough to be choshesh. I asked you, but she's not going to see on the 30th. There's no hachacha. Maybe she'll see on the 30th. Why should you think she sees on the 30th? And the teretz is, you don't need an anticipation of seeing on the 30th because she's not like stam nashim. So why are you choshesh? The teretz is because any woman who is supposed to see, there's a din of the 30th day, chachamim kavea that day. The chachamim marked it on the calendar. That's the day they decide. Tell me, yom ha-shoah. I don't know, whatever, but yom ha-shoah. Tell me, they only killed Jews on the 29th of Iyar? Tell me, they only killed... What's the answer? They went the whole thing and they said, We have to pick a day. Boom, this is it. Why did they pick that day? The problem, the nisah, but that's different. It's a whole shaila why he picked it. Okay, but that's a different question. But the point is, they decided... Same thing, the chacham were looking around. There's a day here. What do we do? What? What? Stam nosh. Here's the day. What about Rashi? I told you that is Rashi. The opposite. The opposite. Rashi? Rashi says there, I just, I don't know. Who? No, it's not stira. Rashi's talking about when you had a kvius before, and you missed it. Third. Yeah, but he didn't talk about that Rashi. Different case. I don't know. I don't know. Who said? Maybe. I'm saying it could be tzedik in a Rashi, but I'm not...

Okay, let's move on. Now, I'd like to discuss with the olam, hachachamim, hanevonim, haydoyim b'da'atam, uvshatam. They seem to be big doylim, so let's discuss here. Okay, ay, yesh mashma from Rashi that way. I'm just telling you over the... You have to learn how Rashi doesn't hold of this. Okay, because Rashi could be held when there's a kavua, there's nothing to talk about. Okay, now, what happens—I'm saying it's not a stira. Rashi could taka not hold like the Chavos Daas; it doesn't bother me. Okay, I'm saying because Rashi held once it's kavua, there's nothing what to talk about. Okay. Now, what day is onah? Here also there's a—I got the Shach, the Chavos Daas, I got some ma'aseh. Shach in se'if katan lamed, if you know the Shach. So tell me what the Shach says is, what day? What day is onah? Shach wants in the chadash, it's thirty days, yom hachodesh, which means if it was beis Iyar, right? Thirty days. So it could be based—sometimes less than thirty days. It could be based, it's the day of the month. If it was two, Chavos Daas comes along and says thirty, dafka, right? Dafka, which means if there's a malei or a chaser, it all depends on the malei and the chaser, right? So she could see the last time on beis. And the next time she could be either gimel or... Okay. Before, you understand what we just said? Who wants to explain Reb Moshe Aroyni what we just said? Who wants to do it? Yeah, you? No. Daniel. Okay, Rafi, you got to explain Moshe Aroyni. They all throw it on you. Eliyahu, you want to do it? Okay. You, Ilan, you want to do it? Explain the chiluk between the shach and the Chavas Daas. What are the two shitos? What is ... is— All right, because that question in the Bach, there is no ... Why? Because it is a yom hachodesh. Who? It's only two days of chodesh. So the ... really doesn't exist. Sure it does, it's fine. It's the same as a yom hachodesh. According to the shitah, there's no yom hachodesh. Shach is thirty days. There's no such thing as yom hachodesh. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Now, it is a little funny that the word chodesh is not in here. Now it's like a little strange. There's no word, but all right, for some reason that's called chodesh. Go ahead, yeah. When it says lamed yom, the question is, they meant to say literally thirty days? It doesn't matter whether the chodesh is malei or chaser, you don't look at the date. Only thirty days. Or they meant to say thirty days, dahaynu a chodesh, which means if you on the fifth of this month, don't count thirty days, just look to the next— It could even be twenty-nine days. Let me ask you two questions. First question: according to the Shach, is that a veses kavua? How do you— the whole thing is, an isha doesn't have a veses kavua; she's choshesh l'lamed yom, but that itself is a veses kavua, because it's kavua for yom hachodesh, no? Huh? What her nekriya will be from that that yom hachodesh follows. It's not always seeing a chaf-tes, chaf-tes, vav; it's depending on her previous re'iyah. Yes, she has a kvius. So one second. So she's seeing, what, on, let's say, beis? Then next month, let's say it wasn't beis; let's say it was actually gimel. The next month would be gimel, will be her— she mishaneh to the fifteenth, will be fifteenth. But roiv nashim see how? How do roiv nashim see? Same day of the month. It doesn't mean which date. So if they see the same of the month, so that is a kvius veses, the yom hachodesh, no? So how can you come and say most women don't have a— so most women have a veses kavua, they don't have a veses kavua. So if they have a veses kavua and this woman doesn't have a veses kavua, so why are we giving her the yom of a person—

As a bas kavuah. Every woman, actually, not in a kavuah, you give her the standard. Every woman who's not a kavuah, we tell her, you know what? Since roiv nashim are kavuah, so we'll give you what everybody's kavuah. Yeah, but she's not kavuah. But if she's a rois, she would have been a kavuah for the Yom HaChodesh. What are you talking about? Huh? She's becoming the rois. Becoming the rois, the rois. I want to know. She's becoming the rois. What? Maybe now she's becoming the rois. You know what I want to say, right? What do I want to say? I'm saying that question comes up actually. Who decides? Who decides? No, what I mean to say is, if you're going to learn that it's lamed yud, okay, I can buy a plug it that way, which means because the woman is a kavuah and you're borrowing a kavuah to give it to an eina kavuah. And the teretz is, what's the teretz? That we chose it then. Because otherwise this woman really is not supposed to be seen on surgery because she's taka not a kavuah. You see, she's not like roiv. Is this woman like roiv, otherwise you wouldn't have a shayla, right? There wouldn't be a story. How many people think about this? This is what goes through my mind. While everybody's sitting and looking at when the next buncher is, the next where they go, they go buy food. What do they call that? Johnson. What's the name? Howard Johnson. Everybody on the road is thinking where the next Howard Johnson is. No, for the food, where they want to buy the next candy bar when driving on Grand Central, whatever it's called, Grand Parkway, whatever it's called, the Garden State Parkway. I'm thinking of these type of cheshbonos. One time, you're telling me that she's not a kavua. So we're saying, so she's stam nashim. So stam nashim are kavuos. If stam nashim are kavuos, what do you want from this lady? And the teretz is because we're not choshesh she's going to see on that day. We picked a day which is stam nashim. Now, could you argue with that? Tell me, do you have anything to argue with what I just said? She's becoming right. But the only reason, you see, this is where you're wrong. The only reason by the stam nashim is because we know that it's going to be. No, by stam nashim you have it. You already have it. Right, they proved that they have it. The only way it became a stam nashim is because they set it up. This woman is not stam nashim till now. And you want to say that she's like stam nashim. Nothing. She's becoming. She's becoming like shaar nashim. Till now she was an alien, and now she's becoming like shaar nashim. You know what an alien is? Not green card. I'm talking about alien with the— Now, red. She's becoming like shaar nashim, and that's enough already to be choshesh lo l'bein. I don't want to take— I want to take because we didn't care. Since she's supposed to have, we don't know when. We never know when. Chacham said 30 days a day. We like day 30. Day 30 is a nice day on my calendar. I like it, because all women have it on day 30. What's wrong with saying? What's wrong with saying? Nothing wrong. It's a very chiddush. It's a very wild chiddush. I can only say it here in English. If I said it in the language, they'd throw me out. So, a very wild chiddush, but it's nice. Sounds good. Okay. Let's go further and see one more shein in the nekudah. Okay. Does anybody know the chiluk between... No? Okay. How do you make the haflagah? How do you cheshbon the haflagah? Do you cheshbon mi techilas hari'ah, or do you cheshbon mi yom hamachras? What is it? When is it that you start counting?

That פלוגה, מתחילת ראייה או מיום המחרת? Second way. What'd you say? The second way? Look at the Chavos Daas in the biurim. He says, pashut, משעת תחילת ראייה. He says, no, it's ממחרת הראייה. You know this machlokes? Okay, go ahead, read it for them. Read it where you found it. Which cheating book did you see this in? Okay, so read it together. You understood? You have to tell them what you're talking about. Go ahead. The thing is, we're counting thirty days, thirty days, not chodesh. Day number one is the day after when you saw, which means you saw today, tomorrow is day one. And then day thirty again you have to... No, she saw today. Today is day one. What's your question? What's your question? What? Same good. You know what I want to say now, right? Okay, almost. You're a novi. What did I just say? Go ahead, yeah. No? Oh, you know, it's from the shamayim. I don't know why. It's reminding me, I have to bring a novi home for my son. Novi. I need a novi. I take... Wow, it's from the shamayim, I remember. Wow. Melachah. I need the cheap ones, whatever, a single one, blue one, school upstairs or something. Okay, yeah? Kids, so listen carefully. No, no, no. Oh, if we're talking about, if we're talking about that she might see, and we're saying she's becoming a new... So the haflaga actually starts when? When does real haflaga start? Does anybody know? From the previous period, no? What's the miyam hamach? What kind of business? What kind of business is miyam hamach? Someone explain it to me. I don't understand. You're telling me she might turn into a regular woman. She's a weird creature, not because of the way she behaves in the house, because of her period. She's a weird creature, and now she's becoming normal, right? That's what you're mechadesh to me. So then, haflaga is thirty, so haflaga is thirty. Why would you even talk about counting the next day chaves daas? And the answer is, if it's not her and what we anticipate her to see like a regular woman, you're right, it's haflaga. Mehareiah, if it's a takanah shloshim yom, the thirtieth day, halacha miyom hamachra, just start counting days. Very good. This is a home run. This is mamash a... Huh? You hear what I just said? Why not? You have waxing ears? You don't took the machlokes first בין the... Now it's funny because I'm getting old. I didn't catch the guy doing it. I usually catch the guy doing it. I guess my eyes is not... I didn't catch the guy in his action. I didn't catch him being bother machteres. It happened fifteen, twenty minutes. I'm getting old. Was it one of our guys or was it one of their guys? We'll have to stray, have to tie them down, that's all. You have your bibi gun on you? Come, just give it. Okay, now, my bibi gun. Do a shot in the head, in the arm, we'll do it. Is it a real one? If you want to tell me she's becoming a normal aflaga lady of thirty, so aflaga starts from the reiah. That's the way aflaga. You tell me not that way. You don't know that? You don't know that aflaga starts from the reiah? You don't know that? But I have to tell you aflaga starts. Twenty-three days. How do I know I'm not supposed to count thirty? Twenty-three. Day one tomorrow. Because everybody knows that. What do you mean, everybody knows that? So now you learn. Now you should learn where it's brought down. It's brought down in the Torah. It's one of the machlokes of this new halacha l'Moshe miSinai. So now it's a question how to learn a ba'alei beis. What's? No, no, no, no, no. Ein lebeis עובד different. You don't start with that aflaga. What you do is you wait the next day and count. Why? If you're worried she's becoming an aflaga lady of thirty, she's like every other lady, so aflaga starts from the reiah. And this we don't believe that. That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the yom. Yeah, but maybe thirty days counting from...

Tomorrow, that's when 30 days starts. That's exactly what he says. Thirty days starts counting tomorrow. She could still be called a haflogah. Haflogah is only mizman hariya. The word haflogah means re'iyah to re'iyah. Re'iyah to re'iyah is if it's the night before, then it's the night before. But if it's miyom, three days, miyom l'yom. Tell me, guys, about mitzvah. You get bar mitzvah, misha l'sha, miyom l'yom. Huh? Miyom l'yom. Huh? You know it's miyom l'yom, no? Let's say a guy was born—born in the daytime, three o'clock, three o'clock. After sunset. Bar mitzvah, six fifteen. Bar mitzvah is night. I'm saying that day. Night. At night. No. The night starts. If he was born at three o'clock in the afternoon, his bar mitzvah is at night of the night before. What? The night before, you— Yeah. Excuse me, I didn't understand what you were saying. Yeah, the night before, because that—haflogah, the word's misha l'sha, misha l'sha. When you have a yom, it's a shlishi yom. Now, with this, I want to discuss nachasheilah. What's the problem? What is the problem, Elon? Do you know what I'm talking about? It's beautiful. We're going to hear this. You have to miss night. I don't need you to agree with me, because you will eventually work it through, and you'll see that there's genius, genius cheshbonos going on. Huh? Plugger works because let's say she saw at night, she starts in the night. You don't start the next day. Why do you never start the next day? If a hakam you do, the teretz is, דין יום, שלושים יום. It's not about haflagah that she will see like a woman who have haflagah of thirty days. She's beautiful. I have to tell this. I must call somebody up and tell this. Somebody in Columbus. Okay, now, with this I want to explain Nochah. Nochah. How many ones do you have to keep onin beinonis? One? That's nice. Shulchan Aruch Harav says two. I have here. Shulchan Aruch Harav says five. Bach. Bach. What? Let's go. Shulchan Aruch Harav says two. Bach. Mashma. No, he knows. Did his homework. Do your homework, you'll appreciate the shiur. Yeah? Why is the Bach being mechalek, though? It's when not choshesh for real haflagah, not a real onah. It's not a real onah, it's not a real onah, it's not a real onah. If it's a regular veses, so then you have the din of beinonis. I'm sorry, what? Homer, yeah. Or the, yeah, why not? ... 30 days. ... Stop, she has the best ... 23 days. No, the Torah does not. Why? Because the ones is the ones. Tom explained to you because it's not about the ones anymore; it's about the yom. It's 30 days. You don't need two ones. It's 30 days. It's what the Chacham says, day 30. They didn't say ones, haflagah shloshim. She's not choshesh l'haflagah at lamed; she's choshesh l'yom lamed. It's not regular case. It's not a regular veses, that's what I'm trying to explain. It will be a regular veses; you're choshesh for that ones, that's all. But there being a tremendous yesod, it's day 30. It's not haflagah. You know what I'm saying? Now you're catching it more? Oh yes, do your research. Do your research. What happens if you come up that a turtle is a snake? You'll come up with that. Okay, now, ... explain how Rav Moshe ben Aharon explained. No?

Yeah, the Bach. The machlokes, the Bach and the Shulchan Aruch. Why is ... 30? It just add oines, that's ... Why is ... 30? Compared to 30. It comes off. I'm just factoring. Why? When it's day 30, ... the entire day. Question is why. This day is just one period, okay? Just like any other day, anything else, just for whatever's left. Why did ... include the entire day? Instead of ... that would mean ... one period of 30 is ... And it's not because ... It's not because ... Question is, all day. ... Plus this. Yeshiva ... do this. Oh yeah, oh yes, they do this plus, and they do the chavas daas, 30 and 31, 24. In yeshiva world, you get to live the life one day a year, one day a month. The rest of it is ... Okay. This, this is the end of the ... of the shiur. Now we're going to say psak of chiddush, chiddush in halacha, according to what we just learned up, the sugya biur. Now we're going to learn chiddush, chiddush. Let's go back to the original she'eilah, she'eilah. B'zman hazeh the women don't have thirty. So do we have to still keep oinah beinonis? Someone said, no, listen, if it's not the stam, it's not the stam. You know what the stam is good for if you're worried about the re'iyah. But here the pshat is, it's not a shaylah about you seeing. Chachamim keinu k'veia yamim shloshim, so it's over. What's the difference? Not negea to l'maaseh, you'll see or you won't see. That's how I started the shiur. Isn't the pshat we're afraid you're going to see? Is that the sugya of oinah beinonis? We're not afraid. V'lo charaya, because the people who see on the oinah beinonis are kevuim. And you're not that. You're usually that, you're usually not that. Especially if you're kevuah—what's the case? You're kevuah not to see on that day. So what's the whole... You have a kvius month after month not to see on shloshim, so you know you're not going to see. So why do you have to keep thirty? Because Chacham picked thirty. So it's not about choshesh for the day. The Chacham said at their time they were mesaken oinah beinonis. So what kind of ... יסוד? What happens if somebody doesn't keep oinah beinonis? And he lives with a wife, and she's pakasizah. Was he oiver the issur derabbanan? I mean, she's niddah, but al gavei the teshuvah for the oונס. If the taiches, Rabbanan told you to be choshesh, so it could be the Rabbanan said to be choshesh. Oh, I caught him in the act. Eric, keep the hand there. Don't move your hand. I caught you in the act, brown-handed, because you have a brown suit. A little chilly? I only know of the big chilly, the one that's on top of Australia. You're saying here's the little chilly? Isn't he the dictator of Shabbos, the dictator of chilly? Who's the dictator of chilly? Huh? From Venezuela. So what's chilly? Chilly is... All right, all right. But you see, I caught him. We caught him in the act. Very good, very good. His hand was stuck in the cookie jar. Okay, now.

That rofeo, that the pshat is, if the chacham came and said that this is an ones, because stam nashim have shloshim yom. It could be it's a vishtartem; it's a d'Oraisa. I don't know, so whatever. I'm saying it's—nobody could be over on a d'Oraisa to do it. I don't know. You're so sure about that? Again, what did she do wrong? She has no fears. Look, I was the first person to tell me on a vishtartem. We learned this right away in the beginning. So look at the first piece, the first thing on the bottom. We learned it, no? Could you tell me what happens, what teshuvah you have to do? If you're over on the vishtartem, it's a teshuvah gedolah. Teres HaShlom, remember we learned this? If you're over on the vishtartem, it's a teshuvah gedolah. Is there anybody that's cholek on him? Probably, because like everything, everybody says that by machlokes. Could you go right away to the beginning of the Avnei Shoham and fill me in, Avnei Miluim? Look at the Avnei Shoham for Avnei Miluim, if there's anybody that argues on the Teres HaShlom. I remember that somebody argues. I remember that somebody argues on the Teres HaShlom, that you could be over more. Go ahead. No, the first piece. If someone is over vishtartem, towards the end, the last piece, I remember, it's right before the end of the— Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Man, make it fast. You're killing me. You're wasting my precious life. Go ahead, no. And your oiver? ... So l'olam lo ytira, that means that we're afraid it's safek and light cup, not on the oideh. On the oideh, according to ... that held you'd be ... That's all I want to pas. I just pas. You write down ... You know what I'm talking? What's l'olam lo ytira? He's a choshesh for that day. L'olam lo ytira, there could be such a thing, and ... made it, and therefore it's only ... You see what I'm saying? You don't see anything. It's a tiny list, and you start seeing stuff. Could you show him? Could you show him stuff? It makes me nervous. No, there's that ... ... remember exactly where I saw it. We learned it. We did it in ... Happy? You see what I'm saying? That's why he starts throwing tables and chairs. Okay. I want a taina that this is mamish a ... This ... You found the ... It's the end, right before the last ... Found it? Right before, right before, right before he finishes, he brings the ... Next one, next one, the one before, the one after. It's around there. It's around there. Yeah, but I want. I remember, I saw, we saw it. See, I don't forget. Things become clear. It's right before the end of the sefer, right? Okay. Okay. Good stuff. Now, now I'm going to say my last and final chiddush. Daniel, Daniel, you like it? I don't have to agree with me. See what I'm pushing, teaching you how to pasken a shaila. Well, what happens if, after learning the sugya, now what happens if? Now I'm going to give you another what happens if. Ready? What happens if a woman was a goya, she becomes a giyores. After she saw her—she had a vet, she was supposed to see, by the shulchan, right? By the shulchan. In the Gemara, story. She became a giyores. Now she had a vet from before. A vet from before. Yeah, yeah, she sees the chaf. Now after—

Look at the Badei HaShulchan. What happens with geirus? So they want to say that she's supposed to see on a certain time. Okay. So she takes her vest kavua with her as she's a geiores, or she says, Listen, we got to start all over again, and therefore she has eidah. I want to tell you, she's definitely going to see on her vest. She's not a new lady, right? So therefore there's no reason not to find the beinus, yeah? Right? Someone is saying not that. I think there's a Chazon Ish that just wants to say a goy is a different body, like the Chamsofer says, because they eat sheratzim. Remember we had the Chamsofer, they eat dragons. Goyim eat dragons. They eat bodies of snakes. Snails and snakes. How about alligators? The Chamsofer says that when they get ... And the Chazon Ish says it over here by this case. And the Badei HaShulchan says tzarich iyun. It's right here. It's in the biurim. I think it's in the biurim. Snails? Yes, that's what you like. Somebody here must be really hungry. Yes, the guy. Yes, the guy. I don't forget. I don't forget. I don't forget. I don't forget. You're not going to catch me. The mind works. Listen here. Here it is. I knew I saw it. The ish lachko. The isha shekavah vest b'nochrisah. Does he bring this? I don't think he brings it. But in his geirah, because it sounds like it's his chakirah. It sounds like nobody else talks about it. In his geirah, mi chashiva k'isha sheyesh lah vest, v'hu al pi mashkos ha... sefer, she'ein lo chiyuv tevilah... niddah. Ah, just to kasha. The shach in siman ... says ... lo basar, because beisin maybe for not for a goya. Shuv raisi b'Chazon Ish. Here it is. That's the Chazon Ish that I know. ... bikar ... ves ... ... meituma loi kava ... He's right. Maybe it is a mefursh Gemara. ... meituma loi kava ... Maybe it is. ... you're referring to. So, b'kitzur, this is what I want. I want, I want the ta'ina here. I want the ta'ina chidush nifla. ... I want the ta'ina chidush nifla. Have a nice one. Good?